Pakistani forces battle militants

[FatimaAsSideqah]

:sl:

Pakistani security forces have clashed with Taleban militants in the troubled north-west of the country, close to the Swat Valley.

A militant commander was among a number of militants killed in gun battles in the Lower Dir district of North West Frontier Province, the military said.

A member of the security forces was also killed when a convoy of troops passed through the area.

The area is west of Swat, where a peace deal was recently agreed.

The government agreed peace with the Taleban there in return for the enforcement of Islamic law.

Government spokesman Fartullah Barbar said the government was determined to root out militants but insisted that the Swat deal was still intact.

The new fighting occurred in the same area where on Saturday 12 children died after a bomb, which they mistook for a toy, went off.

'Enough is enough'

Helicopter gunships and tanks were reportedly used in the fighting.

There was no immediate word of casualties from the Taleban and independent sources have not been able to verify the army's claims.

Pakistani interior ministry chief Rehman Malik has repeated his call for the Taleban to disarm.

"Enough is enough," told a TV channel on Sunday.

"We have decided to flush them out. The peace accord was linked to peace. When there is no peace, there is no use for that accord."

The clashes seem to suggest that the government has finally decided to try to stop the spread of the Taleban across northern Pakistan, the BBC's Mark Dummett reports from the Pakistani capital, Islamabad.

Fighters have moved into several districts since the government agreed to the Swat peace deal.

Critics of the agreement say it allows the Taleban to consolidate their grip on Swat, which is home to 1.5 million people, and then to use it as a base to take over neighbouring areas.

Source from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/sou...019518.stm#map

[Yanal]

This is why Taliban peoples name is disgraced and used in all issues regarding Muslims aswell as Al qaaeda.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Hundreds more children are still undergoing brainwashing at dozens of ‘suicide nurseries’ run by the ethnic Pashtun Taliban commander. Mehsud. This is just disgusts to me!

[chacha_jalebi]

they should kill all these pashtun talibans, they are disgrace to pakistan and furthermore a disgrace to islaam

pakistan if its not sortted out soon, is gona turn into another afghanistan, where apparently the taliban has taken over the country and it is a threat to the world, so what happens America comes in, and takes over the country to bring safety to it, WHATEVER, inshallah that wont happen, we dont want more of our lands under occupation, if only these so called taliban followed islaam proply, fools

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[FatimaAsSideqah]

What I fail to understand that if Taliban can use drone attacks to their advantage and recruit more and more people, why can’t Government of Pakistan engage civilians in the name of countless killing by Taliban?

[chacha_jalebi]

what dya mean by drone attacks sister?

pakistan govt cant do jack thats why, think about it, how can someone come in your country and take over a city and you make peace with them lol, whats gwanin there?

[FatimaAsSideqah]

what dya mean by drone attacks sister?

pakistan govt cant do jack thats why, think about it, how can someone come in your country and take over a city and you make peace with them lol, whats gwanin there?

I mean the Taliban uses the children to become the drone child militants to attack. The Government of Pakistan has to do something or otherwise their country will be takeover by the Taliban. However, they have to be careful on how they combat the Taliban.

[Zafran]

salaam

Its turning Ugly there - may Allah help them

peace.

[chacha_jalebi]

tbh i dunno if its just me or not, but this seems like a massive conspriracy lol, its just beyond me that someone can come in your country and take over a city honestly

may Allah (Swt) keep our muslim lands safe and sort us out man

[FatimaAsSideqah]

tbh i dunno if its just me or not, but this seems like a massive conspriracy lol, its just beyond me that someone can come in your country and take over a city honestly

may Allah (Swt) keep our muslim lands safe and sort us out man

lol, I can understand what you are said. It is just strange that the Taliban can come in and take over on some of areas so easily like that!

Ameen on your dua!

[Yanal]

And Canada and US will be forced to get in and handle the situation.

[nocturnal]

Fatima, i think it's probably because the Pakistani government is widely percieved as corrupt and compliant to western interests. It is the legacy of the Musharraf era and preceded the Zardari government.

Zardari either way has not done much to pacify the tribal areas, instead diverting state resources to consolidate his own position and the eminence of the PPP. It's only now that he has taken the decision to deploy the military to the tribal area to contain the Taliban advance, since they reneged on their promise.

In retrospect, i think what should have happened was that the government should have insisted on retaining the army in the tribal areas whilst concurrently agreeing to the implementation of Sharia. With a military whose ranks total 500,000, it would have certainly been a potent deterrent to the Taliban.

[Dawud_uk]

:sl:

may Allah swt curse the pakistani soldiers, their commanders and the pakistani government who have all abandoned the ummah of muhammad (saws) for the ummah of bush, brown, blair and obama.

they have allied with the kuffar, taken up arms in their aid, forbidden people from the shariah and fought those who wish to bring it about, they are kuffar and may Allah swt guide them or destroy them, ameen.

:sl:

[noorseeker]

Bismillah
I think the western media make the taliban out to be far worse than they are,
ok their version of shariah may be a bit too strict,

but i read somewhere that they dont stop girls going school, or they dont do certain other things that are alleged.

Sister yvonne ridley would be dead .

the west want it too be like their democracy wher any thing goes

on channel 5 news the other day, they were showing afghanistan has its own version of the x factor. as it was good news, umm heellooo.

[doorster]

:sl:

may Allah swt curse the pakistani soldiers, their commanders and the pakistani government who have all abandoned the ummah of muhammad (saws) for the ummah of bush, brown, blair and obama.

they have allied with the kuffar, taken up arms in their aid, forbidden people from the shariah and fought those who wish to bring it about, they are kuffar and may Allah swt guide them or destroy them, ameen.

:sl:

+o(

[Dawud_uk]

+o(

:sl:

doorster, why dont you give us some evidences why you feel i am wrong in what i said rather than just making insulting comments towards members which constantly gets you into trouble on here?

:sl:

[doorster]

wa alaikum!

doorster, why dont you give us some evidences why you feel i am wrong in what i said rather than just making insulting comments towards members which constantly gets you into trouble on here?

I will reply later if staff do not respond to my reporting of your disgusting words @ http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1132695

[The_Prince]

:sl:

may Allah swt curse the pakistani soldiers, their commanders and the pakistani government who have all abandoned the ummah of muhammad (saws) for the ummah of bush, brown, blair and obama.

they have allied with the kuffar, taken up arms in their aid, forbidden people from the shariah and fought those who wish to bring it about, they are kuffar and may Allah swt guide them or destroy them, ameen.

:sl:

I will tell you why you are wrong. for starters you say that the pakistani soldiers should be cursed and so forth, why? the taliban are the ones who cant seem to stick to their agreements and honour their treaties, it is part of Islamic law that when you make a treaty and so forth that you honour it, the taliban did not honour their contract and started moving into new areas which they didnt have the right to do, so action was taken against them.

secondly you say the pakistani army are fighting against a people who want to introduce sharia, ah, introducing sharia over the dead bodies of thousands of Muslims so far? the ulamah are all in agreement that if someone wants to get rid of an evil, then he has no right to get rid of this evil by causing more evil, and look at Pakistan, all we see is fitna, Muslims killing Muslims, taliban making suicide and bomb attacks one after the other against Muslim Pakistanis, and just because those Pakistanis are soldiers or policemen DOES NOT MAKE THEM KAFFIRS AND DOES NOT GIVE YOU A LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO MURDER THEM, this is a new false ideology creeping into Muslims thinking hey if these guys are soldiers and police then we can kill them! most of these Muslim soldiers joined the army and police to bring order and law, to serve the interests of their country, yes the goverment may be corrupt, but that does not mean you go killing all these fellow Muslim soldiers now.


wanting to introduce sharia does not mean you go out and kill Muslim after the other, this is why they failed in Iraq, they had their power, and Islamic state, but they were so extreme and vile killing their own fellow Muslims that the Sunni population overthrew and kicked them out.

if the taliban want to strike the real bad guys, then let them march and storm the goverment buildings and posts, not blow up academies, checkpoints, etc etc which in no way get rid of the main evil that is the Pakistani goverment, to overthrow the goverment then go on and directly attack where the goverment is! this would have been far better and acceptable, it would have caused to less blood-shed, less fitna.

so if we Muslims want to introduce an Islamic state then the first route is EDUCATION, how are you going to introduce a concept of something that many people are ignorant of, first you need to teach the people the religion day in day out non stop and make them want an Islamic state, naturally this will make the people themselves rise up and call for it in mass numbers, most Pakistanis in fact do want an Islamic state, but they dont want an Islamic state in the style of the Taliban with bomb attacks against fellow Muslims and beheadings of fellow Muslims etc.

secondly, we need to have a strong leader, one who can unite us or the people of the specific land, i dont see that. bin laden? hes a nobody hiding in a cave who keeps making claims which he never follows up on, mullah omar? the same, all these other leaders are all in hiding running day in day out, that is not qualified to be a leader, we need a strong leader out in the open, where people can go and speak to him, learn from him etc.

thirdly, we need to have a powerful army, well trained, well organized, with good weapons and equipment something the taliban lack, the taliban to this day are not able to fight the western forces one on one in the open, so how in the world does such a force plan to get hold of a country if they dont even have the means to fight outside forces? if the USA wanted to they could enter Pakistan tommorow and in 1 month they could get rid of the taliban, so how in the world is such a force capable of running an Islamic state??????

so the reality is this, we dont have any of the main conditions to make an Islamic state, so it is all doomed to failure, we Muslims need to stop going by emotions and start being realistic and working hard, the first best place to start is EDUCATIONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN, we Muslims today are nothing, nobodies, once we become smart in our deen and general affairs then we can start laying down the foundations.

[Dawud_uk]

I will tell you why you are wrong. for starters you say that the pakistani soldiers should be cursed and so forth, why? the taliban are the ones who cant seem to stick to their agreements and honour their treaties, it is part of Islamic law that when you make a treaty and so forth that you honour it, the taliban did not honour their contract and started moving into new areas which they didnt have the right to do, so action was taken against them.

secondly you say the pakistani army are fighting against a people who want to introduce sharia, ah, introducing sharia over the dead bodies of thousands of Muslims so far? the ulamah are all in agreement that if someone wants to get rid of an evil, then he has no right to get rid of this evil by causing more evil, and look at Pakistan, all we see is fitna, Muslims killing Muslims, taliban making suicide and bomb attacks one after the other against Muslim Pakistanis, and just because those Pakistanis are soldiers or policemen DOES NOT MAKE THEM KAFFIRS AND DOES NOT GIVE YOU A LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO MURDER THEM, this is a new false ideology creeping into Muslims thinking hey if these guys are soldiers and police then we can kill them! most of these Muslim soldiers joined the army and police to bring order and law, to serve the interests of their country, yes the goverment may be corrupt, but that does not mean you go killing all these fellow Muslim soldiers now.


wanting to introduce sharia does not mean you go out and kill Muslim after the other, this is why they failed in Iraq, they had their power, and Islamic state, but they were so extreme and vile killing their own fellow Muslims that the Sunni population overthrew and kicked them out.

if the taliban want to strike the real bad guys, then let them march and storm the goverment buildings and posts, not blow up academies, checkpoints, etc etc which in no way get rid of the main evil that is the Pakistani goverment, to overthrow the goverment then go on and directly attack where the goverment is! this would have been far better and acceptable, it would have caused to less blood-shed, less fitna.

so if we Muslims want to introduce an Islamic state then the first route is EDUCATION, how are you going to introduce a concept of something that many people are ignorant of, first you need to teach the people the religion day in day out non stop and make them want an Islamic state, naturally this will make the people themselves rise up and call for it in mass numbers, most Pakistanis in fact do want an Islamic state, but they dont want an Islamic state in the style of the Taliban with bomb attacks against fellow Muslims and beheadings of fellow Muslims etc.

secondly, we need to have a strong leader, one who can unite us or the people of the specific land, i dont see that. bin laden? hes a nobody hiding in a cave who keeps making claims which he never follows up on, mullah omar? the same, all these other leaders are all in hiding running day in day out, that is not qualified to be a leader, we need a strong leader out in the open, where people can go and speak to him, learn from him etc.

thirdly, we need to have a powerful army, well trained, well organized, with good weapons and equipment something the taliban lack, the taliban to this day are not able to fight the western forces one on one in the open, so how in the world does such a force plan to get hold of a country if they dont even have the means to fight outside forces? if the USA wanted to they could enter Pakistan tommorow and in 1 month they could get rid of the taliban, so how in the world is such a force capable of running an Islamic state??????

so the reality is this, we dont have any of the main conditions to make an Islamic state, so it is all doomed to failure, we Muslims need to stop going by emotions and start being realistic and working hard, the first best place to start is EDUCATIONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN, we Muslims today are nothing, nobodies, once we become smart in our deen and general affairs then we can start laying down the foundations.

:sl:

before i respond to some of your other points can i ask have you heard of a scholar named ibn taymiyyah?

[Thinker]

What I fail to understand that if Taliban can use drone attacks to their advantage and recruit more and more people, why can’t Government of Pakistan engage civilians in the name of countless killing by Taliban?

Because groups like the Taliban don’t have to abide by laws, the Geneva convention or any other rules and they are not subject to any external pressure. The government of Pakistan and any government and any lawful army is constrained as to how it can behave by rules imposed by the civilised world. Unfortunately many of those rules were written at a time when countries settled their differences with standing armies of uniformed soldiers faced each other. Now you have areas and some countries (Somalia) run by gangsters using Islam for their own personal ends.

[Thinker]

Fatima, i think it's probably because the Pakistani government is widely percieved as corrupt and compliant to western interests. It is the legacy of the Musharraf era and preceded the Zardari government.

It’s the legacy of the Pakistani authorities that allowed the spread of the madrassas and the security services who created and backed the Taliban that took over Afghanistan.

[Thinker]

:sl:

doorster, why dont you give us some evidences why you feel i am wrong in what i said rather than just making insulting comments towards members which constantly gets you into trouble on here?

:sl:

Here's some more reasons . . .

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/press/...008-11-27.html

Despite the drop in opium cultivation, production and prices, the Taliban and other anti-government forces are making massive amounts of money from the drug business. . . . .

He also pointed to the danger of opium stocks held by the Taliban. "For a number of years, Afghan opium production has exceeded world demand.

[nocturnal]

I agree that Pakistani bureaucracy has played a big part in facilitating the growth of these extremee organisations. But, it is also important to not that these Madrassas proliferated greatly under Musharraf. He needed to let them thrive to the point where they posed a serious threat to national security and stability as in the case of the Red Mosque seige, and then dramatically send in the military to convey the image that he is a indispensable element in the war on terror.

The Taliban were primarily conceived by the US (CIA) during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, who solicited to the Pakistani Intelligence Agencies' help in setting them up, using their knowledge of the local region, culture and traditions.

I also agree with Dawaud from a religious point of view. The Pakistani military does deserve contempt for its actions in the post 9/11 years. They have complied in a total servility with the edicts of its leadership no matter how abominable. The Red Mosque case was a classic example where they should have laid down their arms if not mutinied against the political NOT military leadership.

[doorster]

:sl:

before i respond to some of your other points can i ask have you heard of a scholar named ibn taymiyyah?

walaikum

have you heard of a scholar named ibn taymiyyah?

was he some one who preached illiteracy?practised bestiality?sodomy?broke treaties? and murdered men of his neighbourhood so that he could steal their properties and females to sell-on?

go spend sometime with these so-called taliban -- who are actually hounds from hell -- before preaching false crap about them

[Zafran]

walaium, spawn of a lying misguider
was he some one who preached illiteracy?practised bestiality?sodomy? and murdered men of his neighbourhood so that he can steal their properties and females to sell-on?

go spend sometime with these so-called taliban -- who are actually hounds from hell -- before preaching false crap about them

salaam

Ibn taymiyyah(ra) is one of the best Hanbali scholars- you also have to take in account when he was around - when the Mongols were ravaging muslim lands

I say there is a time for Ibn taymiyyah(ra) and then theres a time for Al Ghazzali(ra).

and the Taliban dont have anything to do with him IMO - they are just tribal people who are mixing there culture with religion.

peace

[doorster]

so the reality is this, we dont have any of the main conditions to make an Islamic state, so it is all doomed to failure, we Muslims need to stop going by emotions and start being realistic and working hard, the first best place to start is EDUCATIONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN, we Muslims today are nothing, nobodies, once we become smart in our deen and general affairs then we can start laying down the foundations.

jazaka Allah khair wa janat e firdous!!
without Islamic education and a social security system (zakat) being in place, imposing only the punitive side of Shariah on a mostly semi-literate and semi-Hindu population is VERY wrong.
wa salam alaikum

so the reality is this, we dont have any of the main conditions to make an Islamic state, so it is all doomed to failure, we Muslims need to stop going by emotions and start being realistic and working hard, the first best place to start is EDUCATION, we Muslims today are nothing, nobodies, once we become smart in our deen and general affairs then we can start laying down the foundations

Bravo! first step to eliminate ignorance is to admit that it exists!!

salaam

Ibn taymiyyah(ra) is one of the best Hanbali scholars- you also have to take in account when he was around - when the Mongols were ravaging Muslim lands

I say there is a time for Ibn taymiyyah(ra) and then theres a time for Al Ghazzali(ra).

and the Taliban don't have anything to do with him IMO - they are just tribal people who are mixing there culture with religion.

peace

wa salam alaikum wa jazakallah khair!

[Dawud_uk]

walaikum
was he some one who preached illiteracy?practised bestiality?sodomy?broke treaties? and murdered men of his neighbourhood so that he could steal their properties and females to sell-on?

go spend sometime with these so-called taliban -- who are actually hounds from hell -- before preaching false crap about them

i see you will just respond with wa alaykum when i give you salaams which i think is a little dig at me, but heay i'm not biting so tough luck on that.

[Dawud_uk]

salaam

Ibn taymiyyah(ra) is one of the best Hanbali scholars- you also have to take in account when he was around - when the Mongols were ravaging muslim lands

I say there is a time for Ibn taymiyyah(ra) and then theres a time for Al Ghazzali(ra).

and the Taliban dont have anything to do with him IMO - they are just tribal people who are mixing there culture with religion.

peace

:w: zafran,

i dont agree with everything the taliban do, but i dont believe you are correct when you say they are mixing islam with culture, could you provide some proofs for this claim otherwise i am affraid it must be labelled as slander?

they are not perfect, but like the mujahideen at the time of ibn taymiyyah they are fighting a force, claiming islam but who are ruling by other than Allah has revealled, they are attempting to implement islam, which is more than can be said for those who oppose them.

so RE ibn taymiyyah, what was his ruling regarding the tartar rulers of baghdad who claimed islam but ruled by other than Allah has revealled?

what was his ruling on those who sided with them, taking up arms for them or working for them or providing supporting fataawah for them?

[Zafran]

:w: zafran,

i dont agree with everything the taliban do, but i dont believe you are correct when you say they are mixing islam with culture, could you provide some proofs for this claim otherwise i am affraid it must be labelled as slander?

they are not perfect, but like the mujahideen at the time of ibn taymiyyah they are fighting a force, claiming islam but who are ruling by other than Allah has revealled, they are attempting to implement islam, which is more than can be said for those who oppose them.

so RE ibn taymiyyah, what was his ruling regarding the tartar rulers of baghdad who claimed islam but ruled by other than Allah has revealled?

what was his ruling on those who sided with them, taking up arms for them or working for them or providing supporting fataawah for them?

If you actually been in peshwar, swat you wouldnt realy need any proof - they are tribal people - they have there tribal code. Now they are trying to fuse Sharia - thats all good in there tribal region but it realilty sharia is far deeper then a bunch of Vigilantes trying implement a complex system like sharia.

Lets not forget about the drug trade. There was an area called Lakh Gharr - which was lawless area before as the police were scared to go in - controlled mostly by Warlords as the person with us said - he had his stories about them - not far off of what Doorster said.

If you agree with them why dont you help the out??

ibn taymiyyah(ra) had his reasons calling people kaffir - but hes only one scholar from the hanbali school of thought. Islam is a wide road.

I'm not supporting the Pakistani government as everyone knows its one of the most corrupt governments on earth - but niether i'm going to support the pushtun tribes men as i've been in swat before.

peace.

[Joe98]

taliban....but i dont believe you are correct when you say they are mixing islam with culture, could you provide some proofs for this claim otherwise i am affraid it must be labelled as slander?

I too am keen to see evidence. The West learns about islam and Sharia law by watching the exploits of the Taliban, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

...regarding the tartar rulers of baghdad who claimed islam but ruled by other than Allah has revealled?

And the West learnt a lot about Islam from the tarter rulers.

Instead of saying that the West lies about Islam, we west has learnt about Islam from those mentioned above. All claiming to be practising Islam correctly.

-

[Zafran]

I too am keen to see evidence. The West learns about islam and Sharia law by watching the exploits of the Taliban, Saudi Arabia and Iran.




And the West learnt a lot about Islam from the tarter rulers.

Instead of saying that the West lies about Islam, we west has learnt about Islam from those mentioned above. All claiming to be practising Islam correctly.

-

salaam

you have taken his post out of context - that post was refering to something else - nothing to do with the west.

[nocturnal]

If you actually been in peshwar, swat you wouldnt realy need any proof - they are tribal people - they have there tribal code. Now they are trying to fuse Sharia - thats all good in there tribal region but it realilty sharia is far deeper then a bunch of Vigilantes trying implement a complex system like sharia.

Lets not forget about the drug trade. There was an area called Lakh Gharr - which was lawless area before as the police were scared to go in - controlled mostly by Warlords as the person with us said - he had his stories about them - not far off of what Doorster said.

If you agree with them why dont you help the out??

ibn taymiyyah(ra) had his reasons calling people kaffir - but hes only one scholar from the hanbali school of thought. Islam is a wide road.

I'm not supporting the Pakistani government as everyone knows its one of the most corrupt governments on earth - but niether i'm going to support the pushtun tribes men as i've been in swat before.

peace.

I think now days, whenever anyone cites the "Pakistani Taliban", there's immedieately this wave of terror that is aroused with it, which is wrong. We are not talking about a unified movement here where everyone conforms to one extremist doctrine, it is a movement that is coalesced around the concept of entrenching Islamic law in the tribal areas. Thats what its restricted to.

The exact workings of it and how it will be enacted isn't clear yet, but when you have isolated hordes of uneducated people marauding towards the federal capital, you have to understand that they aren't those who ratified an agreement with the government. Rather than support this inchoate initiative by formulating new infrastructure and development projects, we (the international community) are focusing inordinately on the Islamists and their apparently impending take over. I think thats a bit short-sighted and only designed to evoke hysteria and mass panic therefore facilitating further foreign intervention.