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tariq331
04-29-2009, 06:27 PM
salam, im going to try and say this in plain english, i dont expect everyone to understand, but i just wonder if anyone else has ever sat down and seriously thought about our wretched existence.

Allah (swt) is most merciful, yet majority of Humanity will burn and suffer in Hell. Now im not a saint but nor am i sadistic even with my worst enemy if i did self-examination even lowly me could not watch even a dog being burnt alive, let alone a human being, much less comprehend a punishment like Jahanam where BILLIONs of people (realistically speaking, if my understanding of Quran is correct, that means AT LEAST 5 BILLION People [who were kafirs] from our times will probably burn in Hell- and thats assuming all the Muslims get off, which is again unlikely according to Quran) so thats nearly 80-90% of Human Beings in Hell (just from our times!).

You might say "ooooh but you dont know who is going to hell", your right i dont, so lets say God forgives a million, no a Billion people, or lets say He is even more Merciful than that and lets off half of humanity, but thats still 3 Billion People in the fire. Did you ever think about that?

Next, what are they burning for? For not believing in Islam, but more to the point... for following their earthly DESIRES. Since Islam is all about chaining and controlling our desires. But wait a minute...where did those desires come from?? who gave Human Beings those desires?

Here is a clue... as much as we hate him, it was not Iblis, he just called humans to their base instincts and most people (being human) responded. Why? because the misery they saw in this life (wars, famines, poverty, disease) made a lot of people turn to escapes like music or wine or whatever their personal vice, to enjoy themselves on occasion and forget their miseries- and yet it is for THIS they will burn for eons and eons or even eternity.

Now eternity is a strong word, its literally "forever". Hitler (just taking his for example sake, im not claiming to know his end) was a pretty bad guy by most accounts, he was a evil guy, he killed millions of people, he caused world wars. If hell was created for people like him, maybe i could understand, but even then consider the word "forever". If Hitler burned in hell for 1000 years, that would be kind of getting off lightly. So if he burnt for a Million most of us would "understand". Now imagine he burns for 10 Million, then 100 million, then 10 Billion years Hitler is still burning in hell, then 50 Billion, then 400 BILLION YEARS...then 10 TRILLION YEARS... by now is there any purpose in burning him more? Even the worst human being, there comes a time for forgivness, for redemption, but no, he will continue to burn like that forever and ever.

He has no oppurtunity to go back and change his ways, he has no chance to redeem himself, he cannot kill himself to escape the torment, he can do nothing at the bottom of this pit.

But here is the bit that really gets me...did any human being ASKED to be created? Did human beings want to play this game called "reality" (where there are only 2 rolls on the dice...heaven or hell).

Lets imagine you go back in time to when the 6 Billion souls of today were just Souls. If you told them "the reality", that there is a place called Earth...and you will be sent there... and you will examined and sent to Heaven or Hell according to what you do, and you showed them videos of Heaven - some would probably sign up and say okay "lets play!" but when you showed them Hell and told them about Shaytaan the one who is going to trick you to try and get you in Hell, and you told them realistically most people would end up in Hell because earning Jannah is very hard and a few will attain it, what do you think most people would do? I think majority of Humans being human would have the common sense to say "You know what, Heaven looks like a nice place, but its just not worth the risk, i mean the odds are not too good and if i mess up and end up in Hell...er.. no thanks, i dont want to play this game" - Most of these "souls" would opt-out of this "reality", sure a few souls that like to gamble would probably say okay i accept!

Yet what do we find instead? Nobody was given a CHOICE when we talk about "life". You did not choose to live, you did not choose your eyes and face, your soul was thrown in a body and told to go play! You did not choose your level of wealth, health, you didnt even choose or know when the game is going to finish, and you were not given the "key" (Islam) that leads you to the good ending (heaven) from birth in 80% of the cases (every 4 in 5 humans is a non-muslim remember) so you had to search for the truth, except not everyone was the same - so some found it, but most did not. Some people had a mortgage to pay, kids to feed, and 16 hour shift to do at work, so they could not sit and think about the Purpose of the Universe... well no excuses in the afterlife, so off they go to hell all the same.

I mean even the choices you thought you made, well not exactly - because they were "written", you wered destined to make those choices, except you did not know it (until you made them).I mean YES Adam bit the apple, but did you ever wonder WHO PUT THE TREE IN THE GARDEN?

ITs like a guy who you take from the street, put a football shirt on him, and say "okay! your player 6" and expect him to play next week in the world cup FINAL. If he wins you will give him £100 million, but if he loses you will throw petrol on him and burn him alive. You might say the guy stood a chance, others would say he was doomed before he began.

So it is with most of us.

There is a hadith about the story of Isra wa Miraj, when the Prophet (saw) was being taken on a tour of the higher realms and he saw Mikaheel, but Mikaheel never smiled. He asked Jibraeel why Mikaheel never smiled, and Jibraeel told the Prophet (saw) that Mikaheel has not smiled since the day Allah (swt) created Jahanum.

The Scholars point out about this hadith that Mikaheel is a Angel, so there is 0% chance of him ever entering it, and yet we human beings laugh and carry on with our miserable lives while that place (Jahanam) was really made for us, and we are the ones who will enter it.

Little wonder then, that after comprehending all this, i have been pretty down on my life and keep wishing day after day that Allah (swt) had created me as a Angel or some animal (no judgement) or just a stone or something so that i would not have to go through first this merciless world full of misery and torture called Dunya, and then Jahanam on the other side.
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absuk
05-01-2009, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by tariq331
salam, im going to try and say this in plain english, i dont expect everyone to understand, but i just wonder if anyone else has ever sat down and seriously thought about our wretched existence.

.
:sl:

I too have been struggling with the concept of eternal torture. Adding to this fate & predestination, and it really gets confusing. I have tried to discuss it in the forum. I have had lots of sincere answers and advice. Unfortunately I have been swimming in ever decreasing circles! If you have faith, you will accept that although these questions are challenging, the answers are very simple. However, if I have weak faith, and question what seem to be contradictory explanations, I am told I shouldn't think about it....

I have also been advised not to allow shaitan to mess with my mind, and should focus on the Mercy of Allah (SWT). I really want to believe. However, that Mercy extending to burning me for eternity, when it was known before I was born that I would be destined for hellfire is really hard to comprehend...
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- Qatada -
05-01-2009, 09:30 PM
:salamext:


Whether the human likes it or not, we are being given the benefits of the covenant. So compare yourself to the rest of the creation and see whose more favoured than the human race? So if you say that I was forced to abide by the covenant, then you are also getting its favours and benefits, whether you like it or not. Even if you were to live like an animal, you would still have an intellect and potential to reach greater heights, and much more which animals don't have.


Now that you have its favours, then you will also have to fulfill its conditions - otherwise by default - you will be held to account for the favours given to you on Judgment Day, then you will be given an equal recompense for your gratefulness or ungratefulness.


So the issue isn't about you not having any control of wanting to be born, the issue is of the reality that you're facing. This reality is that you're getting its benefits, so you sleep in a bed in comparison to a donkey which sleeps on the floor. You eat all sorts of foods and can use the internet with the use of an intellect, something which the cow can't do. Due to this, you have to accept its reality, be thankful to Allah for His favours, through which He would give you more good. But if you're ungrateful for these favours, and disobey Allah - then by default He will punish, because He is the King, and He does what He wills, when He wills.


He is not questioned about His actions, rather they will be questioned. [Qur'an 21:23]



Imagine I gave you $20,000 through my Messenger and i told you to keep it and use it for your own use, so long as it is not spent on evil. Then I will give you more or less throughout your life, but you have to give 2.5% of it to the poor every year. You also have to ask me 5 times a day to make me choose you over other people as the one who recieves rewards.


I also tell you that if you fulfill these conditions, after a limited amount of time - I will give you an even greater reward than this which will be more longer lasting.



If you reject what i give you, and you're ungrateful - then i've got the ability to remove these rewards from you and to punish you. You have no other way of recieving an income because I own this land.

Whether you like it or not, you have to agree and get more good, otherwise you lose. So are you willing to abide by my contract?



in regard to destiny, check these threads for more info;
http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a...1165/new-post/
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absuk
05-01-2009, 09:46 PM
[QUOTE=- Qatada -;1135211]:salamext:



If you reject what i give you, and you're ungrateful - then i've got the ability to remove these rewards from you and to punish you. You have no other way of recieving an income because I own this land.

Whether you like it or not, you have to agree and get more good, otherwise you lose. So are you willing to abide by my contract?


:sl:

Brother in the above example you would punish me because I am ungrateful. Would you slowly burn my skin and stand next to me and watch? When I am screaming with pain, would you heal me, only to burn me again. How long would you continue to burn/heal/burn me because of my ungrateful nature?

Would you hit or beat your young children? If your children reached puberty, would you beat them? What would you think if you knew that I beat my 15 year old child because he was ungrateful? How about if I beat him until he became unconcious...then waited until he came round.....and beat him again? At what point would you consider me to be cruel?

I apologise if this causes offence brother. When people who have weak iman ask such questions, simply suggesting they change their belief iand be more grateful is very difficult....and could potentially push the person further away.
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'Abd-al Latif
05-01-2009, 09:53 PM
Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;-

He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed
: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-

[Surah Al Mulk]
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absuk
05-01-2009, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Wa alaykum salam,


You could quite easily ask something like: "... you would reward me because I am grateful. Would you slowly give me all I want and stand next to me and watch my delight? When I am screaming in delight, would you smile at me, only to reward me further. How long would you continue to give me pleasure because of my grateful nature?"

.
:sl:

I really don't see how asking the opposite question justifies the concept of burning me for eternity?
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Yanal
05-01-2009, 10:06 PM
Bismillah Hair Rahmaan Nara Heem
My local iman has said something about this I will try to give the exact words " Allah will tell the non muslims/believers I sent you the signs and the Prophets and you denied ,now you should spend your time in hell" that is true Prophet Isa(AS) will come and try to preach as many Muslims as possible aswell as people who are not muslims and that will be what Allah says and Allah knows the best,and inshAllah we can amil(reflect) on the Quran.Ameen.
Walakum Asalam Warakmatulah Wabarkatuh
Islamic bro.
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Yanal
05-01-2009, 10:08 PM
Bismillah Hair Rahmaan Nara Heem
Who brother Alpha are you reffering to?
Walakum Asalam Warakmatulah Wabarkatuh
Islamic bro.
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absuk
05-01-2009, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
If you need justification for burning in hell for eternity, then why don't you need justification for the opposite too? Isn't that a bit unfair on your part?
:sl:

No I am afraid you miss my point entirely. I really do not want to engage in a verbal marathon, nor try and change your opinion. It is my imaan that worries me. I am trying to understand how we reconcile eternal punishment with fate/predesination.

If that confuses me, then asking me to justify the opposite really does not help. I am certain that you are sincere in your remarks, but really suggesting an alternative question, and then getting me to refute/justify it adds to the confusion!
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'Abd-al Latif
05-01-2009, 10:17 PM
Then understand predestination before confusing your self further. Here is a lecture which may help:

Predestination - By Shaykh Suhaib Hasan
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Yanal
05-01-2009, 10:18 PM
Bismillah Hair Rahmaan Nara Heem
It depends on your iman,in other words the worse sins you do,the more time you spend in hell. Allah knows the best.
Walakum Asalam Warakmatulah Wabarkatuh
Islamic bro.
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جوري
05-01-2009, 10:19 PM
the question should rather be..
'why not hell'?

it is true as the Quran says that 'alinsan le'rabbih lakanood'
Lo, man is an ingrate to his lord...(100:6)

So you'd rather be an angel and pray round the clock with no sleep and no free will-- knowing what you know, can you honestly say you could do that?

or would you be happy as an inanimate object.. as well prostrating to him forever since everything in the heavens and earth is engrossed in worship..

You'd be ok not having seasons, food, shelter, family, restful sleep, people to know, places to travels, opportunities at learning, your senses, all that each individual cell does around the clock to maintain you in a healthy alive state, because you resent that there is a hell!

well this is the situation in which you've found yourself and frankly the choice is yours on where you want to end up.. there is really so very little that is asked of you for the much that you receive around the clock through no will of your own!
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'Abd-al Latif
05-01-2009, 10:22 PM
Pre-destination (Qadr) in islam by Salem al Amri in 2 Parts:

Media Tags are no longer supported

Media Tags are no longer supported
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Yanal
05-01-2009, 10:28 PM
Bismillah Hair Rahmaan Nara Heem
Ok,JazakAllah Khayr for explaining. Hopefully the thread starters question is answered ,feel free to question me on any of my posts in this thread and I will try to answer them with the best of my human abilities. Allah knows the best.
Walakum Asalam Warakmatulah Wabarkatuh
Islamic bro.
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'Abd-al Latif
05-01-2009, 11:01 PM
Please view the video, because you're in for a surprise!
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Yanal
05-01-2009, 11:08 PM
Bismillah Hair Rahmaan Nara Heem
Me?
Walakum Asalam Warakmatulah Wabarkatuh
Islamic bro.
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AnonymousPoster
05-01-2009, 11:15 PM
[QUOTE=tariq331;1134108])

Next, what are they burning for? For not believing in Islam, but more to the point... for following their earthly DESIRES. Since Islam is all about chaining and controlling our desires. But wait a minute...where did those desires come from?? who gave Human Beings those desires?


Thats why we have been born on fitrah/inherent goodness...left alone a human will believe...
.the corrupt ones choose to follow their evil desires (instead of making use of the intellect and inherent good which we have all been blessed with)
They will be a trial and help misguide the pure souls who in turn will not be using their intellect and inherent goodness at the time of choosing to do the evil that has been displayed to them.
Good is all there is....evil is what we choose and an effort is needed to go against the good.


Now eternity is a strong word, its literally "forever". Hitler (just taking his for example sake, im not claiming to know his end) was a pretty bad guy by most accounts, he was a evil guy, he killed millions of people, he caused world wars. If hell was created for people like him, maybe i could understand, but even then consider the word "forever". If Hitler burned in hell for 1000 years, that would be kind of getting off lightly. So if he burnt for a Million most of us would "understand". Now imagine he burns for 10 Million, then 100 million, then 10 Billion years Hitler is still burning in hell, then 50 Billion, then 400 BILLION YEARS...then 10 TRILLION YEARS... by now is there any purpose in burning him more? Even the worst human being, there comes a time for forgivness, for redemption, but no, he will continue to burn like that forever and ever.
He has no oppurtunity to go back and change his ways, he has no chance to redeem himself, he cannot kill himself to escape the torment, he can do nothing at the bottom of this pit.

Keep in mind the All Knowing/Most Just qualities of God. He knows if these people were to be put back on earth for the same trial they will do the same deeds again and again till eternity...therefore an eternity is justified.

But here is the bit that really gets me...did any human being ASKED to be created? Did human beings want to play this game called "reality" (where there are only 2 rolls on the dice...heaven or hell).

Yet what do we find instead? Nobody was given a CHOICE when we talk about "life". You did not choose to live, you did not choose your eyes and face, your soul was thrown in a body and told to go play! You did not choose your level of wealth, health, you didnt even choose or know when the game is going to finish, and you were not given the "key" (Islam) that leads you to the good ending (heaven) from birth in 80% of the cases (every 4 in 5 humans is a non-muslim remember) so you had to search for the truth, except not everyone was the same - so some found it, but most did not. Some people had a mortgage to pay, kids to feed, and 16 hour shift to do at work, so they could not sit and think about the Purpose of the Universe... well no excuses in the afterlife, so off they go to hell all the same.

I mean even the choices you thought you made, well not exactly - because they were "written", you wered destined to make those choices, except you did not know it (until you made them).I mean YES Adam bit the apple, but did you ever wonder WHO PUT THE TREE IN THE GARDEN?

And also ever wonder why the angels were told to bow in front of a human?
angels are creatures of 'pure intellect' (ibn khuldun) It just shows that humans have been gifted special qualities that has the potential to exceed that of the angels. Knowledge, intellect, inference skills, imagination etc. have been mercifully granted to us to use for good ... why use it for evil?

Perhaps...you may have not chosen to be here (although it is stated -sorry can't remember where- that humans were the only ones who agreed to shoulder this responsibility, which even the mountains refused)
if its a battle it is one which can be easily won and you've been armed with more than adequate armour.... who is to blame if you take off the armour and disown it mid battle?



ITs like a guy who you take from the street, put a football shirt on him, and say "okay! your player 6" and expect him to play next week in the world cup FINAL. If he wins you will give him £100 million, but if he loses you will throw petrol on him and burn him alive. You might say the guy stood a chance, others would say he was doomed before he began.

More like the guy comes from a group of people who have agreed to play whenever required, but the guy will have forgotten he agreed to play. Nevertheless he has been trained, he has more than enough skill. He also knows the consequence of not doing his best.. (you say he needs to win which implies he has control over his team members..it is not about winning...the prize is for doing ones best for the team and the burning consequence is for playing for the opposite side on purpose!


The Scholars point out about this hadith that Mikaheel is
a Angel, so there is 0% chance of him ever entering it, and yet we human beings laugh and carry on with our miserable lives while that place (Jahanam) was really made for us, and we are the ones who will enter it.

Amazing isn't it when all this frightening knowledge is available ...it still does not deter the evildoers.

something to ponder....
God is All powerful and and Independent...no one tells Him what to do.
(just think of what a president of the west with an atom of that power would do)
what if He put everyone into hell....no chance ...no reason...just put there for eternity..without even knowing why.
Is it not part of His Mercy even on the evil doers that they know whythey are there.
Many times in earthly matters not knowing why is the bigger torment...if its justified it will be acceptable...if it is not, then knowing why is better than not knowing at all. Of course God is Most Just so theres no question of non justified punishment.

For those who choose to be responsible for their choices and use them correctly...what is there for them to say except 'Alhumdulilah'.




QUOTE]
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transition?
05-01-2009, 11:33 PM
:sl:

Hell is a blessing, if you see it not!

Hell was made so awful so that it may be easy for people to protect themselves from it and instead aspire to go to Heaven, which was made so great!!!! Therefore, we cannot say Allah (swt) "wants" for us to go to Hellfire and burn eternally! Especially when has sent signs and books to warn people! The difference between Heaven and Hell has been made SO OBVIOUS, so that people may choose the OBVIOUSly good one! Buy Nay! People seek their desires in this world! =P

It strikes fear in our hearts! So we may benefit from that fear and forever stay on the straight path!

People who go to Heaven have turned away from Allah as their own choice as they follow only their own desires! But Heaven is for those who turn to Allah (swt) and ask for His Mercy so that they may enter Paradise!
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FatimaAsSideqah
05-01-2009, 11:41 PM
:sl:

This was the view favoured by Ibn Jareer.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer (4/239).


Many people are confused about what is wanted from the slaves of Allaah, which is adhering to His religion which He has chosen for them, and what is wanted for them, which is rewarding the obedient and punishing the disobedient. This is part of Allaah’s decree which will never be altered or changed.

Allah Taala does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows that they deserve that, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world.
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-Elle-
05-02-2009, 02:17 AM
Now eternity is a strong word, its literally "forever".
I thought about this too before, and honestly, when reading the Qu'ran, what often comes up is "Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful". Some things we might not know; you have to have faith in God; like you said,you are a simple human being and it pains you to see an animal in pain,let alone a human.

Where did this feeling of pity and hurt come from?Who put this emotion within you?

Allah(Swt) has CREATED us,have faith in our Lord's qualities...

like I said, some things are unknown,and truly,sub7an'Allah, that doesn't bother me(and I am the type of person who questions EVERYTHING.)

if I can feel hurt and pain and pity and sadness for others, if I have a sense of justice and righteousness,then I do believe that God, who put these emotions and traits within me, witholds them to a greater degree than I; if fairness is valued by Islam and has been ordered to be applied by all muslims, then it must be EXTREMELY valued by God.

Insh'Allah this helped in some ways, I see how you can be confused, and my final piece of advice; keep on asking questions, but be objectives in your views,most people who posted here tried to show you the opposite side of what you were affirming, yet it led to confusion...anyway,


Best of Luck
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witness
05-04-2009, 12:57 AM
if one knows about or can imagine the likelyhood of the pain of eternal punishment- does that not according to human nature make one want to avoid it? even the slightest probability of it (think in terms of insurance )

should one not strive to avoid that?

If one is unable to want to avoid that for even ones own self...how does it justify making God responsible for inflicting the pain..when ones own self does not want to avoid it.

If you want it - you'll have it.
Choose the best -thats what you'll get.
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Eric H
05-04-2009, 04:11 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Qatada
Whether the human likes it or not, we are being given the benefits of the covenant.
My parents may have planned my conception, or I may have come into this world as an accident. One thing I am certain is that I had no say in the matter, I did not ask to be born, or to be brought up in a Christian family, yet here I am still a Christian at 60.

In the eyes of most Muslim I commit the sin of shirk, and I should be condemned to hell. A lot of Christians probably feel that Muslims would be condemned to hell.

Does God judge in the same way as these condemning people, because the same God hears all or prayers? I have to hope and pray that God is loving, kind and forgiving to people of all faiths and no faith.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God

Eric
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ATHEISTofPEACE
05-04-2009, 04:13 AM
Hahah is smart enough not to say why he think God did so....
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