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Re.TiReD
05-07-2009, 11:36 AM
AssalamuAlaykum

Oki....This has left me kinda dumbstruck. I dont know why....but it has. You see the new member that has registered...Michael S (I think thats how u spell it) well its him so please welcome him warmly insha'Allah :D

I've never talked about Islam in this way...never questioned other religions either. And after talking for about an hour and a half...I have several questions of my own aswell. They probably have simple enough answers, but I'm going to ask anyway.

So...(I'm not sure if the word mormon is spelt correctly btw, sorry)

Anyway, we believe and accept Isa (Jesus) to be a Prophet, accept the miraculous birth, the Injeel...etc etc....as do the Mormons....and christians also I guess. My question is (to the non-muslims mainly), why was there a need for God to have a son? This gentleman said that it was because Jesus died for our sins and that Jesus was also the Creator...he created the world by the will of God. I dont understand that either, if God is All-Powerful and Great...to most He is known as the Creator of the universe, why was His 'son' believed to have Created the world?

Also, does it state anywhere in the bible that Jesus is the final messenger, or does it state that there will be a final messenger anywhere? Am I incorrect in thinking that there is a work that states that there are verses in the bible that foretell the coming of a final prophet (after Jesus) whose name will be 'the praised one' ... i.e. Muhammad or Ahmed? .. I'm sure I've heard that somewhere, please correct me if I am wrong.

Also....To anybody here, what are the things needed to qualify as a prophet? I mean the Prophet (saw) came both as a Prophet and a Messenger, he was the seal of the prophets and he had a unique purpose and message...but the mormons....they have a prophet now aswell. The conversation I had began with my question, 'what is it about this gentleman that leads you to believe that he is in some way different to everybody else and thus a prophet'... And from the answer I recevied...it seems to me that their prophet is the exact same as the shaykhs and scholars we have today....no difference apart from the fact that they appear to be held in much more higher esteem than their actual worth (no offence intended)... But my question is, why would anybody need a prophet now...? And would the verse (the one about taking their rabbi's and monks as lords) would that apply here?

JazakAllah khayr for any clarification.

Wassalam
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Follower
05-07-2009, 09:20 PM
I know Muslims wish it so, but there is nothing in the Bible that prophecies the coming of Mohammad.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, which means He is the beginning and the end. For the Christian there is no need to follow another prophet. Why would there need to be a prophet after Jesus?

There are many verses that warn us of false prophets. For a Christian a true prophet would have to preach what is stated in the Gospel.

Galatians 1
8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

no difference apart from the fact that they appear to be held in much more higher esteem than their actual worth (no offence intended)... Christians believe that as mere men prophets can be sinners, just as all of us are saints and sinners
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جوري
05-08-2009, 04:03 AM
There is nothing of history to confirm Jesus, let alone as a God..
we have no wishes as far as your bible is concerned.. the disciples as per are incompetent, your God a little confused, about his being, and then he dies.. How can anyone possibly wish that for a book of confirmation?

all the best
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Yanal
05-08-2009, 04:11 AM
:sl:
But there is proof for Prophet Isa (AS).
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جوري
05-08-2009, 04:17 AM
isn't it amazing how Jesus warned against false prophets, yet xtians pounced on the first false prophet to come their way? Saul.. he abrogated commandments that would have had Jesus crucified for real -- and then hordes afterward from unsaintly saints to Joan or Arc to the fellow who reformed Christianity and turned Jesus int thrice an adulterer...

Seems anyone telling christians to return to Monotheism is a false prophet, but every charlatan that lets them fulfil their most depraved and carnal and lowely desires isn't..
so they eat piggies, and sing and dance to idols, they take men for gods and others for saints, they have given away the covenant with Abraham, and they wear funny velvet brocade and cute convuloted hats that put Dr. Seuss' cat to shame...

Christianity in a nutshell. Confused discples.. questionable sources to authenticate, an inefeectual God who foresake himself after he prayed to himself three times.. now the two other gods take a back seat to Jesus...

The other day I purchased a book through ebay, and obviousely I have an ISlamic name, so I received my book with an evangelist message to Jesus plan to salavtion.. Haven't left the lady feedback yet, but when I do, I'll let it be known why Jesus plan to salavtion seemed to not avail Jesus himself, and that she wasting good paper, since the message isn't worth the paper it is printed on...
Reply

جوري
05-08-2009, 04:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Jr
:sl:
But there is proof for Prophet Isa (AS).
the writing of Josephus (100) c.e contain two passages,, the longer one a christian interpolation, for its glowing description is one no orthodox jew would accept -- the second passage has been scrutinized by Schuror, Zahn, von Dobschutz, juster and other scholars, and they regarded the words ''the brother os Jesus, him called christ;; as a further interpolation ...

if you mean evidence from the Quran, well frankly that doesn't count as far as xtians are concerned!
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malayloveislam
05-08-2009, 04:48 AM
In Islam, prophets are ma3soum (sinless). They have normal human-qualities, they go to toilet, they eat and drink, they sleep, they walk on the earth, they marry, they have children, etc.

But when a person is assigned as a prophet by G-d, they must have 4 characteristics. Siddiq (Speaking the Truth, Performing True Acts), Fathanah (Intelligent), Tabligh (Spreading the message), and Amanah (Trustworthy). They are impossible to be Kizzib (Liars), Kitman (Hiding the message), Khiana (Breaking the promise), Jahl (Ignorant).

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not speak the verses of Quran from his own desire:

3. Nor does he (prophet Muhammad) say (aught) of (his own) Desire

4. It is no less than revelation sent down to him.

(Translation of Surah An-Najm by Abdullah Yusuf Ali: 3-4).

1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (John 4)

How many interpretation can you make from the bold underlined phrases?

Is this language (English) used to spread the Bible? Is this a Bible or a translation manuscript of the Bible? The language style seems not English. Of course I'm not native English speaker, maybe it could be native English. Do you people make any research on the languages used in particular time, by whom, to which audience, in what place, what is the source language, where is the co-lineal source text since this is a religious text? It should be in both languages, the target and source language side-by-side for people to make comparison and interpretation purpose. I have a manuscript of Quran in Arabic with Malay translation co-lineal side-by-side. When I prayed and performing obligatory prayers acts I solely use Arabic not my native language. I can say prayers in my native language outside the prayers for G-d understand too other languages, the knowledge of languages is granted by Him.

For Christians, Paul, John, Luke, and etc might be their prophets. For us, our prophets are those who had the same lineage. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had the lineage from prophet Ismael (pbuh), who's the son of our father, prophet Abraham (pbuh). We do not simply believing in spirits without doing research. Our religion promotes the seeking of knowledge and researches (Surah al-3alaq).

Translation of Surah al-3alaq:

1. Proclaim! (or Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-

2. Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:

3. Proclaim! And thy Lord is most bountiful,-

4. He Who taught (the use of) the Pen,-

5. Taught man that which he knew not.

6. Nay, but man doth transgress all bounds.

7. In that he looketh upon himself as self-sufficient.

8. Verily, to thy Lord is the return (of all).

9. Seest thou one who forbids-

10. A votary when he (turns) to pray?

11. Seest thou if he is on (the road of) Guidance?-

12. Or enjoins righteousness?

13. Seest thou if he dinies (Truth) and turns away.

14. Knoweth he not that G-d doth see?

15. Let him beware! If he desist not, We will drag him by the forelock,-

16. A lying, sinful forelock!

17. Then let him call (for help) to his council (comrades):

18. We will call on them angels of punishment (to deal with him)!

19. Nay, heed him not: but bow down in adoration, and bring thyself the closer (to G-d)!

We do not regard our prophet as divine, and that is why our religion is not known as Muhammadan. It is Islam, from the name of G-d (The Peace Guarantor). He is just a human assigned as a prophet and a messenger by G-d. His companions or disciples who reported events that they witnessed, are not prophets. Their narration of the reported events were included in Hadiths. Quran is not their report, and not prophet Muhammad (pbuh) report.

Arabic, Hebrew, Chaldean, and Aramaic are all ancient languages since BCE. Simple words had contextual meanings. They even can be broken into root words and still can be interpreted. English had developed around 6th C AD if I read it correct from English textbooks.
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memories
05-09-2009, 04:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
There is nothing of history to confirm Jesus, let alone as a God..
we have no wishes as far as your bible is concerned.. the disciples as per are incompetent, your God a little confused, about his being, and then he dies.. How can anyone possibly wish that for a book of confirmation?

all the best
This answer shows a very poor understanding of the bible, or pretty much any other religion so far as muslims are concerned,arrogantly Judging the Disciples who wrote the good book,without facts. Using ''your god'' its this kind of arrogance that drive men to plant bombs and kill innocents.
Reply

جوري
05-09-2009, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
This answer shows a very poor understanding of the bible, or pretty much any other religion so far as muslims are concerned,arrogantly Judging the Disciples who wrote the good book,without facts. Using ''your god'' its this kind of arrogance that drive men to plant bombs and kill innocents.

Given that the disciples themselves were confused about their roles- with peter disowning Jesus before his alleged crucifixion, I'd say I have a pretty good understanding.
further, I am not aware that Saul was a disciple-- before your God died, he was on bad terms with him.. then he had a miraculous vision whereby he turned a man into a God, and abrogated all the commandments, I notice that your God was ineffectual in abrogating his own commandments in person, so he delegates the task to his nemesis (for intrigue) ..
as for who is killing the innocent. Well one needs to turn on the TV to see how much pillaging and havoc your bible thumpers are causing to the other half of the world...

Talk about stupidity along side arrogance!

all the best
Reply

memories
05-09-2009, 04:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
isn't it amazing how Jesus warned against false prophets, yet xtians pounced on the first false prophet to come their way? Saul.. he abrogated commandments that would have had Jesus crucified for real -- and then hordes afterward from unsaintly saints to Joan or Arc to the fellow who reformed Christianity and turned Jesus int thrice an adulterer...

Seems anyone telling christians to return to Monotheism is a false prophet, but every charlatan that lets them fulfil their most depraved and carnal and lowely desires isn't..
so they eat piggies, and sing and dance to idols, they take men for gods and others for saints, they have given away the covenant with Abraham, and they wear funny velvet brocade and cute convuloted hats that put Dr. Seuss' cat to shame...

Christianity in a nutshell. Confused discples.. questionable sources to authenticate, an inefeectual God who foresake himself after he prayed to himself three times.. now the two other gods take a back seat to Jesus...

The other day I purchased a book through ebay, and obviousely I have an ISlamic name, so I received my book with an evangelist message to Jesus plan to salavtion.. Haven't left the lady feedback yet, but when I do, I'll let it be known why Jesus plan to salavtion seemed to not avail Jesus himself, and that she wasting good paper, since the message isn't worth the paper it is printed on...

The women had an act of kindness sending you that message, since you are obviously in deep darkness and hate, you so hate oppinions that differ form your's that you deem them ''unworthy of the paper it is printed on..'' you also take religion to the first level, for you religion is nothing but a bundle of rules to be folowed without compassion, without love of anybody else whos oppinion differ from yours. You wash the outside of the cup, but inside it is full of rotting things,hate,fear, and ignorance. a narrow and weak mind. Misguided faith has dire consequences... faith without love is hate!

''Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance.''
-Saint Augustine


Regards
Reply

جوري
05-09-2009, 04:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
The women had an act of kindness sending you that message, since you are obviously in deep darkness and hate, you so hate oppinions that differ form your's that you deem them ''unworthy of the paper it is printed on..''
Given the 33,820 different denominations according to the Christian encyclopedia, I am pretty sure, she would take you too for a heretic. As for an act of kindness.. well I guess that is a relative term, especially when believing in the man/God has to come with bribes.. Who bribes people especially impoverished ones with bread in one hand contingent on accepting the man/god with the other?
you also take religion to the first level, for you religion is nothing but a bundle of rules to be folowed without compassion, without love of anybody else whos oppinion differ from yours. You wash the outside of the cup, but inside it is full of rotting things,hate,fear, and ignorance. a narrow and weak mind. Misguided faith has dire consequences... faith without love is hate!
So far, I have only heard a host of colorful adjectives.. I have always enjoyed that about bible belt fundies.. they either bribe or thump or use florid language, but no facts whatsoever!

''Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance.''
-Saint Augustine
You should share that with your kin right here
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...tealth-crusade

according to Christians here it is ok to lie, bribe, malign, and disseminate wrong info to convert people into the medieval religion that made women akin to animals and thought the earth flat, and let people die of starvation while asking Muslims to offer less aid (potato crop failure anyone?)
It doesn't even take me two seconds to refute you.. oh the humanity!
Regards
all the best =)
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memories
05-09-2009, 04:36 AM
''the medieval religion that made women akin to animals''
Christain women have alot of liberty, I wish I could say the same thing about muslim women and it saddens me.

''they either bribe or thump or use florid language, but no facts whatsoever''
thats an oppinion not a fact.

''You should share that with your kin right here
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...tealth-crusade''

My kin? uncalled for, hatefull and disrecpectfull, is that what god wills? hate and mockery?

''It doesn't even take me two seconds to refute you.. oh the humanity!''

It takes 2 seconds to formulate a shallow answer.
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جوري
05-09-2009, 04:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
''the medieval religion that made women akin to animals''
Christain women have alot of liberty, I wish I could say the same thing about muslim women and it saddens me.

''they either bribe or thump or use florid language, but no facts whatsoever''
thats an oppinion not a fact.

''You should share that with your kin right here
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...tealth-crusade''

My kin? uncalled for, hatefull and disrecpectfull, is that what god wills? hate and mockery?

''It doesn't even take me two seconds to refute you.. oh the humanity!''

It takes 2 seconds to formulate a shallow answer.

I think the answer is far deeper than the reply, at least we have news articles and encyclopedic facts to confirm it.. What do you have?
should we start with grammar before we take the leap to substance?

It is already past my bedtime and I am so not in the mood for your ilk.. if you have something of substance to impart do so.. if not, quit wasting both our times.. Go join a christian forum and coax yourself into believing you have superior morals!

all the best
Reply

memories
05-09-2009, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I think the answer is far deeper than the reply, at least we have news articles and encyclopedic facts to confirm it.. What do you have?
should we start with grammar before we take the leap to substance?

It is already past my bedtime and I am so not in the mood for your ilk.. if you have something of substance to impart do so.. if not, quit wasting both our times.. Go join a christian forum and coax yourself into believing you have superior morals!

all the best
Articles and encyclopedics are no substitute for kindness, ''your ilk'' ''your kind'' again this is intolerance wich leads me to the conclusion that their is a possibility that your moral principles are indeed pherhaps weeker than mine, personal attacks on grammar or anything else wont help you making a point (english isnt my first language im french), and time spent arguing with an indoctrinated person such as you is wasted that much is right! and if you look closely you will find this to be so.

Regards :rollseyes
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جوري
05-09-2009, 04:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
Articles and encyclopedics are no substitute for kindness, ''your ilk'' ''your kind'' again this is intolerance wich leads me to the conclusion that their is a possibility that your moral principles are indeed pherhaps weeker than mine, personal attacks on grammar or anything else wont help you making a point (english isnt my first language im french), and time spent arguing with an indoctrinated person such as you is wasted that much is right! and if you look closely you will find this to be so.

Regards :rollseyes


I am glad you have superior morals and great tolerance.. and I certainly hope they avail you!..
we all speak two or three languages on the side. If you can't engage folks on a level why embarrass yourself?-- I certainly couldn't care less whether or not you are grammatically correct! but no substance leads one to focus on grammar, when both are missing, it leaves one with very little to desire..


I am calling it a night, have a wonderful evening

all the best
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memories
05-09-2009, 05:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I am glad you have superior morals and great tolerance.. and I certainly hope they avail you!..
we all speak two or three languages on the side. If you can't engage folks on a level why embarrass yourself?-- I certainly couldn't care less whether or not you are grammatically correct! but no substance leads one to focus on grammar, when both are missing, it leaves one with very little to desire..


I am calling it a night, have a wonderful evening

all the best
Goodnight
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2009, 09:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
This answer shows a very poor understanding of the bible, or pretty much any other religion so far as muslims are concerned,arrogantly Judging the Disciples who wrote the good book,without facts. Using ''your god'' its this kind of arrogance that drive men to plant bombs and kill innocents.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Given that the disciples themselves were confused about their roles- with peter disowning Jesus before his alleged crucifixion, I'd say I have a pretty good understanding.
further, I am not aware that Saul was a disciple-- before your God died, he was on bad terms with him.. then he had a miraculous vision whereby he turned a man into a God, and abrogated all the commandments, I notice that your God was ineffectual in abrogating his own commandments in person, so he delegates the task to his nemesis (for intrigue) ..

M, one of the reasons that you find people occassionally saying what memories has said, that you show a poor understanding of the bible, are things like what you say in this very post. I've highlighted one small portion of it for you to clarify:

"Before your God died [I assume by this you mean Jesus] he was on bad terms with him [I assume from the context you mean Saul, aka Paul]. The problem is that there is no record that Jesus and Paul ever met prior to Jesus' death, or even prior to Jesus' ascension. The only recorded meeting between the two of them, took place some time after Jesus had already ascended to heaven, in which he appeared to Paul in a theophany that took place as Paul was on his way to persecute some of those who, post-Crucifixion/Resurrection event, had become followers of "the Way" (as the Christians were at that time known) under the preaching of Peter and the other disciples. But Paul was never one of that group of disciples. So, it is completely erroneous to say that "he [Jesus] was on bad tersm with him [Paul]", and truly does show a very poor understanding of the bible, just as memories has said -- and that's just one illustration out of many.


That's not said to insult. I know you try hard to represent what you do understand as best as you can, and often make insightful comments. For example, what you said about Josephus was spot on:
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
the writing of Josephus (100) c.e contain two passages,, the longer one a christian interpolation, for its glowing description is one no orthodox jew would accept -- the second passage has been scrutinized by Schuror, Zahn, von Dobschutz, juster and other scholars, and they regarded the words ''the brother os Jesus, him called christ;; as a further interpolation ...
Christians who use Josephus to "prove" anything about either Jesus or Christianity are just grasping at straws as the supposed evidence of those portions of Josephus' writings which purport to be about Jesus is about as genuine to Josephus as the supposed "Gospel of Barnabbas" is to the genuine Barnabbas.

But at other times, you antipathy toward all things Christian clouds your judgment and produces mis-statesments such as your one above where you have Jesus and Paul on the outs with each other before Jesus is supposed to have died, when the truth is that the Biblical story records their first contact with each other did not occur until well after Jesus had already gone to heaven.
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جوري
05-10-2009, 03:39 PM
I take this to mean that Jesus and Saul were great friends?:

Saul Meets His Enemy
"And I persecuted the Way unto death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons...And it came about that I was on my way to Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished. And...a very bright light suddenly flashed from heaven all around me, and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And I answered, 'Who art Thou, Lord?' And He said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting'...And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' (ACTS 22:4-10). This was certainly an unforeseen turn of events! But it would certainly take something like this to cause a dedicated man such as Saul to turn his whole life in the opposite direction so suddenly. Nothing else can explain the change in Paul's life. As we have already seen, he had everything going for him, and he is about to give it all up for Jesus! He is about to say "good-bye" to his status, prestige and power and "hello" to prisons, persecution and poverty. And after it is all done, he will write about how happy he was to have made such a choice, how spiritually rich and joyful he had become and about how wonderfully bright his eternal future with the Lord would be.


you are right in part.... jesus never appointed saul an apostle, clearly Saul, was an enemy of your God -- who saw the light and abrogated his commandments well after your god's death..
Your God didn't see fit to abrogate his commandments though his chosen apostles, but through a nemesis.. and I'd say even if they have never met, shouldn't your god know of the creatures he created and what hides in their hearts?

and you want to talk about false prophets and poor understanding? pls sort out this mess first before you lecture me on semantics as you so often do with winded sermons and miss the entire point!
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memories
05-10-2009, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
and you want to talk about false prophets and poor understanding? pls sort out this mess first before you lecture me on semantics as you so often do with winded sermons and miss the entire point!
It always strikes me to see how Muslim women are often the most indoctrinated and radical ones when it comes to discussing about religion, It strikes me because they are often the ones to suffer the most because of this religion.

The muslim world has kept their women under veils depriving them of all forms of liberty, education and employment just look at the Burka of Afghan womenand at the hijab of Iranian women, this is why Im always surprised to see that its most fierce advocates are often ''sisters in islam'' they should be the ones longing for a change shouldn't they? Its incredible!

I think most of the religious rules regarding muslim women are actually means of social controll, so that men can have a tight grip over women's lives, some form of dominating relation. And dont serve me the ''islam is a modern religion that gives alot of rights to women'' crap, one only has to read news about lapidated women etc to see that its not true. Brainwashing and fear is what its all about.
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GreyKode
05-10-2009, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
This answer shows a very poor understanding of the bible, or pretty much any other religion so far as muslims are concerned,arrogantly Judging the Disciples who wrote the good book,without facts. Using ''your god'' its this kind of arrogance that drive men to plant bombs and kill innocents.
What is this ridiculousness about bombs and killing innocents, why don't you think like that about atheists who mock not just your GOD?
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
It always strikes me to see how Muslim women are often the most indoctrinated and radical ones when it comes to discussing about religion, It strikes me because they are often the ones to suffer the most because of this religion.

The muslim world has kept their women under veils depriving them of all forms of liberty, education and employment just look at the Burka of Afghan womenand at the hijab of Iranian women, this is why Im always surprised to see that its most fierce advocates are often ''sisters in islam'' they should be the ones longing for a change shouldn't they? Its incredible!

I think most of the religious rules regarding muslim women are actually means of social controll, so that men can have a tight grip over women's lives, some form of dominating relation. And dont serve me the ''islam is a modern religion that gives alot of rights to women'' crap, one only has to read news about lapidated women etc to see that its not true. Brainwashing and fear is what its all about.
lol.. it should strike you indeed-- I think a simple answer is, you don't know the first thing about the rights of women in Islam..

let's contrast to the bible shall we?
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."
Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing
1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.


meanwhile the rights of women to Islam

first and foremost
1-her education. I have a doctorate, what about you, what do you have?
2-her right to her own money
the prophet worked for his first wife, let's contrast to the church views on women, making them akin to animals, not knowing whether or not they have souls.
3-the right to her own name.. as she is not a property of her husband
4-the right to vote. during the time of the prophet women stood by the tree giving their voice to whom they wanted to represent them.
5- the right to a divorce if she is unhappily married, without fear of excommunication
6-the right to her dignity and not being subjugated because she is poor.
7-the right to gender equality, especially in the eyes of God..

just to name a few.. perhaps you ought to open some books and read em, starting with your bible?

again less than a minute refutation!

177 Reasons for the High Status of Women in Islam
This is a compilation of all the verses in Quran that refer to "women".

From 002.TheCow
49. And when We delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.
221. And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.
222. And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
228. And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
231. And when you divorce women and they reach their prescribed time, then either retain them in good fellowship or set them free with liberality, and do not retain them for injury, so that you exceed the limits, and whoever does this, he indeed is unjust to his own soul; and do not take Allah's communications for a mockery, and remember the favor of Allah upon you, and that which He has revealed to you of the Book and the Wisdom, admonishing you thereby; and be careful (of your duty to) Allah, and know that Allah is the Knower of all things.
232. And when you have divorced women and they have ended-- their term (of waiting), then do not prevent them from marrying their husbands when they agree among themselves in a lawful manner; with this is admonished he among you who believes in Allah and the last day, this is more profitable and purer for you; and Allah knows while you do not know.
235. And there is no blame on you respecting that which you speak indirectly in the asking of (such) women in marriage or keep (the proposal) concealed within your minds; Allah knows that you win mention them, but do not give them a promise in secret unless you speak in a lawful manner, and do not confirm the marriage tie until the writing is fulfilled, and know that Allah knows what is in your minds, therefore beware of Him, and know that Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
236. There is no blame on you if you divorce women when you have not touched them or appointed for them a portion, and make provision for them, the wealthy according to his means and the straitened in circumstances according to his means, a provision according to usage; (this is) a duty on the doers of good (to others).
241. And for the divorced women (too) provision (must be made) according to usage; (this is) a duty on those who guard (against evil).
282. O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.

From 003.The Family of Imran:
14. The love of desires, of women and sons and hoarded treasures of gold and silver and well bred horses and cattle and tilth, is made to seem fair to men; this is the provision of the life of this world; and Allah is He with Whom is the good goal (of life).
41. He said: My Lord! appoint a sign for me. Said He: Your sign is that you should not speak to men for three days except by signs; and remember your Lord much and glorify Him in the evening and the morning. f42. And when the angels said: O Marium! surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.
61. But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

From 004.Women:
O people! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two, many men and women; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, by Whom you demand one of another (your rights), and (to) the ties of relationship; surely Allah ever watches over you.
And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.
And give women their dowries as a free gift, but if they of themselves be pleased to give up to you a portion of it, then eat it with enjoyment and with wholesome result.
Men shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, and women shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, whether there is little or much of it; a stated portion.
And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straiten them m order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.
And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
And do not covet that by which Allah has made some of you excel others; men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn; and ask Allah of His grace; surely Allah knows all things.
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say: Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.
And they ask you a decision about women. Say: Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.
They ask you for a decision of the law. Say: Allah gives you a decision concerning the person who has neither parents nor offspring; if a man dies (and) he has no son and he has a sister, she shall have half of what he leaves, and he shall be her heir she has no son; but if there be two (sisters), they shall have two-thirds of what he leaves; and if there are brethren, men and women, then the male shall have the like of the portion of two females; Allah makes clear to you, lest you err; and Allah knows all things.

From 005.The Food:
5. This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
6. O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.

From 007.The Elevated Places:
127. And the chiefs of Firon's people said: Do you leave Musa and his people to make mischief in the land and to forsake you and your gods? He said: We will slay their sons and spare their women, and surely we are masters over them.
141. And when We delivered you from Firon's people who subJected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.

From 009.Repentance:
67. The hypocritical men and the hypocritical women are all alike; they enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands; they have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them; surely the hypocrites are the transgressors.
68. Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.
71. And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
72. Allah has promised to the believing men and the believing women gardens, beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetual abode; and best of all is Allah's goodly pleasure; that is the grand achievement.

From 012.Yusuf:
28. So when he saw his shirt rent from behind, he said: Surely it is a guile of you women; surely your guile is great:
30. And women in the city said: The chiefs wife seeks her slave to yield himself (to her), surely he has affected her deeply with (his) love; most surely we see her in manifest error.
50. And the king said: Bring him to me. So when the messenger came to him, he said: Go back to your lord and ask him, what is the case of the women who cut their hands; surely my Lord knows their guile.

From 014.Ibrahim:
6. And when Musa said to his people: Call to mind Allah's favor to you when He delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, and slew your sons and spared your women; and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.

From 024.The Light
4. And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,
12. Why did not the believing men and the believing women, when you heard it, think well of their own people, and say: This is an evident falsehood?
23. Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evil), are cursed in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.
26. Bad women are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women
31. And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.
60. And (as for) women advanced in years who do not hope for a marriage, it is no sin for them if they put off their clothes without displaying their ornaments; and if they restrain themselves it is better for them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

From 027.The Ant:
55. What! do you indeed approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly.

From 028.TheNarrative:
4. Surely Firon exalted himself in the land and made its people into parties, weakening one party from among them; he slaughtered their sons and let their women live; surely he was one of the mischiefmakers.
23. And when he came to the water of Madyan, he found on it a group of men watering, and he found besides them two women keeping back (their flocks). He said: What is the matter with you? They said: We cannot water until the shepherds take away (their sheep) from the water, and our father is a very old man.
25. Then one of the two women came to him walking bashfully. She said: My father invites you that he may give you the reward of your having watered for us. So when he came to him and gave to him the account, he said: Fear not, you are secure from the unjust people.

From 003.The Allies:
32. O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word.
35. Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.
49. O you who believe! when you marry the believing women, then divorce them before you touch them, you have in their case no term which you should reckon; so make some provision for them and send them forth a goodly sending forth.
52. It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.
55. There is no blame on them in respect of their fathers, nor their brothers, nor their brothers' sons, nor their sisters' sons nor their own women, nor of what their right hands possess; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is a witness of all things.
58. And those who speak evil things of the believing men and the believing women without their having earned (it), they are guilty indeed of a false accusation and a manifest sin.
59. O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
73. So Allah will chastise the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the polytheistic men and the polytheistic women, and Allah will turn (mercifully) to the believing women, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

From 040.The Believer:
25. So when he brought to them the truth from Us, they said: Slay the sons of those who believe with him and keep their women alive; and the struggle of the unbelievers will only come to a state of perdition.

From 047.Muhammad:
19. So know that there is no god but Allah, and, ask protection for your fault and for the believing men and the believing women; and Allah knows the place of your returning and the place of your abiding.

From 048.The Victory:
5. That He may cause the believing men and the believing women to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow to abide therein and remove from them their evil; and that is a grand achievement with Allah
6. And (that) He may punish the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women, and the polytheistic men and the polytheistic women, the entertainers of evil thoughts about Allah. On them is the evil turn, and Allah is wroth with them and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort.
25. It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; and were it not for the believing men and the believing women, whom, not having known, you might have trodden down, and thus something hateful might have afflicted you on their account without knowledge-- so that Allah may cause to enter into His mercy whomsoever He pleases; had they been widely separated one from another, We would surely have punished those who disbelieved from among them with a painful punishment.

From 057. The Iron:
12. On that day you will see the faithful men and the faithful women-- their light running before them and on their right hand-- good news for you today: gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide therein, that is the grand achievement.
13. On the day when the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women will say to those who believe: Wait for us, that we may have light from your light; it shall be said: Turn back and seek a light. Then separation would be brought about between them, with a wall having a door in it; (as for) the inside of it, there shall be mercy in it, and (as for) the outside of it, before it there shall be punishment.
18. Surely (as for) the charitable men and the charitable women and (those who) set apart for Allah a goodly portion, it shall be doubled for them and they shall have a noble reward.

From 060.The Examined One:
10. O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and kt them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
12. O Prophet! when believing women come to you giving you a pledge that they will not associate aught with Allah, and will not steal, and will not commit fornication, and will not kill their children, and will not bring a calumny which they have forged of themselves, and will not disobey you in what is good, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

From 065.The Divorce:
O Prophet! when you divorce women, divorce them for~ their prescribed time, and calculate the number of the days prescribed, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, your Lord. Do not drive them out of their houses, nor should they themselves go forth, unless they commit an open indecency; and these are the limits of Allah, and whoever goes beyond the limits of Allah, he indeed does injustice to his own soul. You do not know that Allah may after that bring about reunion.
And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

From 071.Nuh:
28. My Lord! forgive me and my parents and him who enters my house believing, and the believing men and the believing women; and do not increase the unjust in aught but destruction!

From 085. The Mansions Of The Stars:
10. Surely (as for) those who persecute the believing men and the believing women, then do not repent, they shall have the chastisement of hell, and they shall have the chastisement of burning.
all the best
Reply

GreyKode
05-10-2009, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
It always strikes me to see how Muslim women are often the most indoctrinated and radical ones when it comes to discussing about religion, It strikes me because they are often the ones to suffer the most because of this religion.

The muslim world has kept their women under veils depriving them of all forms of liberty, education and employment just look at the Burka of Afghan womenand at the hijab of Iranian women, this is why Im always surprised to see that its most fierce advocates are often ''sisters in islam'' they should be the ones longing for a change shouldn't they? Its incredible!

I think most of the religious rules regarding muslim women are actually means of social controll, so that men can have a tight grip over women's lives, some form of dominating relation. And dont serve me the ''islam is a modern religion that gives alot of rights to women'' crap, one only has to read news about lapidated women etc to see that its not true. Brainwashing and fear is what its all about.
Sis Gossamer is a pretty educated person, the most educated sister on this forum I believe.

On the other hand youre the one who is not making any sense. Did you talk to any muslim woman and she complained to you about being oppressed?, or are you just parroting what you are fed on FOX news?
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Sis Gossamer is a pretty educated person, the most educated sister on this forum I believe.

On the other hand youre the one who is not making any sense. Did you talk to any muslim woman and she complained to you about being oppressed?, or are you just parroting what you are fed on FOX news?

actually there are many sisters here with doctorates, they just don't participate as often as I do -- the other sisters are in universities working toward something great insha'Allah...

I am just impressed with the views they see on the news at night.. I suspect that is why they think they can dispatch evangelists and expect that men/women and children will lap their crap up when their god is actually a middle easterner and even the middle eastern Christians don't subscribe to their brand of Christianity from its derangement .. the only thing their ignorance serves is to make them more isolated and living in a bubble.. they have no clue of what their 'enemy' is actually like...

it is the same imbecility that leads them to publish that Jihadists were getting lap dances and getting drunk the night before they bombed their WTC or that the culprit' passport survived the fire that brought down a steel building to allude to his Muslim identity.

In a word, arrogant, undereducated and down right stupid at times.


:w:
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2009, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I take this to mean that Jesus and Saul were great friends?:
The events you describe take place AFTER Jesus' death. Again, I call your attention to what I highlighted, you had said: "before your God [Jesus] died, he [Jesus] was on bad terms with him [Paul]." That just simply is not what the Bible says, and because you misread it to say something that it does not actually is one of the reasons that you find Christians reading your posts and saying about them that "you show a poor understanding of the bible." I am sorry, M, I know you try, but you often simply get the meaning of the passage wrong just as you have done in this case.

Another example is how you often like to quote Jesus' comment that he was sent only to the house of Israel and infer from it that he had no message for anyone else. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Yes, one isolated verse taken out of context can be made to say virtually anything. But as you have misunderstood the nature of the relationship between Jesus and Paul prior to Jesus' death, in this other passage you miss the whole meaning of what he was saying to this woman and incorrectly apply it to the purpose of Jesus' life in ways that are entirely inconsistent with what else Jesus has to say for himself in those same scriptures:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) The whole world, not just one group of people.

"when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32) All men, not just a select few.

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (Luke 19:10) It is more than just the nation of Israel that is lost.

"On my account you [Jesus' disciples] will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles." (Matthew 10:18) Jesus prepares his disciples for their future mission which goes beyond the borders of Israel.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:19) All nations, not just the house of Israel.

"you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (Acts 1:8) Jesus sends his disciples to place he did not go to spread his message farther and to everyone.


And if you actually read the Gospel accounts as whole, rather than just trying to glean tidbits from selected verses, you will see that Jesus actually spent quite a bit of time with non-Jews and ministered to them as well:
Matthew 8 -- a Roman centurion
John 4 -- a Samaritan woman
Mark 5 -- in the region of the Gerasenes and the cities of the Decapolis a pagan region outside of the borders of Israel


Even the verse you like to cite comes as part of a story in which Jesus shows that he is going to be inclusive and not exclusive in who he ministers to for his message is for everyone. The end of the story is that he praises the woman for her faith and grants her the request she made of him, just as he tells stories about Samaritans who are heros and makes those who were the original recipients of God's grace the butt of many of his parables in favor of extending the good news to more and more people till it is a universal gospel. That you don't see this in the bible, tells me that you truly reading it for if you were you would see that one of its principle messages is that comes not just to one group of people but for all.
Reply

memories
05-10-2009, 09:47 PM
It appears Im wasting my time here, as for your doctorate did you find it in a happy meal? I never said their wase'nt anything similar written in the bible, the main difference is we dont folow that crap.

Im not sure, I joined this forum to get a sample of what some muslim forumers think...get an insight into this religion.. and so far I got a load of indoctrinated arguments and ive seen another load of pointless debates about the color of Sauls' shorts. wether or not this prophet was real.. or ''who was on bad terms with who?''.. while its written ''this'' or that blabla...Also, lots of how the ''pig'' jews those ''monsters'' (whatever you call them) are opressing the poor innocent palestinians whos land was robbed... and the likes of it..

Im sorry, I didnt have time to read all of those 117 reasons of the ''high'' status of women in islam.. while the contrary is obvious. (like I said its a mean of social control) Its bizzare, if you have a doctorate level education it should lead you towards more liberal positions on many matters.

It hurts me to say it, but so far the only logical arguments I have heard around here are from the Atheist's or the Agnostic, nothing whatsoever from muslims, I get the same ''your god'' crap oh and how christians bribe/rob etc etc.. Its sad to say but I found that reading threads and/or commenting on muslim forums is potentially one of the quickest ways to atheism.

Regards
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2009, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
It appears Im wasting my time here, as for your doctorate did you find it in a happy meal?
Hey, time out!!! It is one thing to defend our faith, it is another to attack people and mock them. We must remember we are guests here.
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The events you describe take place AFTER Jesus' death. Again, I call your attention to what I highlighted, you had said: "before your God [Jesus] died, he [Jesus] was on bad terms with him [Paul]." That just simply is not what the Bible says, and because you misread it to say something that it does not actually is one of the reasons that you find Christians reading your posts and saying about them that "you show a poor understanding of the bible." I am sorry, M, I know you try, but you often simply get the meaning of the passage wrong just as you have done in this case.
The passage in my previous post clearly shows the relationship your god had with this servant. and what he did after the death of your god .. Of course Christians will disagree, my views are stabbing the very basic tenants of their beliefs!
Another example is how you often like to quote Jesus' comment that he was sent only to the house of Israel and infer from it that he had no message for anyone else. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Yes, one isolated verse taken out of context can be made to say virtually anything. But as you have misunderstood the nature of the relationship between Jesus and Paul prior to Jesus' death, in this other passage you miss the whole meaning of what he was saying to this woman and incorrectly apply it to the purpose of Jesus' life in ways that are entirely inconsistent with what else Jesus has to say for himself in those same scriptures:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) The whole world, not just one group of people.
Once you give me a proper chain of Isnad linking any statement to Jesus himself, can you come assert your views with bravado. Your bible contradicts itself, and people are free to subscribe to the passages that make most sense. Jesus being sent to the Jews makes the most sense.
Jesus not eating pigs and not expecting you to eat them, also makes most sense. Your God circumcised and expecting the rest of you to be as well, makes most sense. Your god keeping the sabbath and expecting the rest of you to keep it as well makes most sense.
You don't have to write me entire sermons to make a point, I believe half if not 70% of the stories in your bible are actually made up...

have a look for yourself!

http://www.bartdehrman.com/flv_comed...dy_central.htm


Even the verse you like to cite comes as part of a story in which Jesus shows that he is going to be inclusive and not exclusive in who he ministers to for his message is for everyone. The end of the story is that he praises the woman for her faith and grants her the request she made of him, just as he tells stories about Samaritans who are heros and makes those who were the original recipients of God's grace the butt of many of his parables in favor of extending the good news to more and more people till it is a universal gospel. That you don't see this in the bible, tells me that you truly reading it for if you were you would see that one of its principle messages is that comes not just to one group of people but for all.
what woman and what praises? according to http://www.bartdehrman.com/flv_comed...dy_central.htm

even the story of Mary Magdalene didn't take place..

I am sorry to say but you are wasting your time here...

all the best
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
It appears Im wasting my time here, as for your doctorate did you find it in a happy meal? I never said their wase'nt anything similar written in the bible, the main difference is we dont folow that crap.
If you don't like it here, then don't be a member here! Also why subscribe to a religion that is filled with 'crap'?

Im not sure, I joined this forum to get a sample of what some muslim forumers think...get an insight into this religion.. and so far I got a load of indoctrinated arguments and ive seen another load of pointless debates about the color of Sauls' shorts. wether or not this prophet was real.. or ''who was on bad terms with who?''.. while its written ''this'' or that blabla...Also, lots of how the ''pig'' jews those ''monsters'' (whatever you call them) are opressing the poor innocent palestinians whos land was robbed... and the likes of it..
Again, if you don't like it here, then don't be a member here!
honestly what were you expecting in a section entitled 'comparative religion' perhaps a discussion on Taraxacum officinale?
Im sorry, I didnt have time to read all of those 117 reasons of the ''high'' status of women in islam.. while the contrary is obvious. (like I said its a mean of social control) Its bizzare, if you have a doctorate level education it should lead you towards more liberal positions on many matters.
what is 'liberal' in your book? having an STD, or being akin to having no souls and likened to animals as per your early church's views on women? If you don't want to read about Muslim women from Muslim women, then don't come and lecture us on who is indoctrinated!
It hurts me to say it, but so far the only logical arguments I have heard around here are from the Atheist's or the Agnostic, nothing whatsoever from muslims, I get the same ''your god'' crap oh and how christians bribe/rob etc etc.. Its sad to say but I found that reading threads and/or commenting on muslim forums is potentially one of the quickest ways to atheism.

Regards
shouldn't hurt so much.. feel free to join an atheist/christian/agnostic forum..
and indeed, I think one would be better off as an atheist than a christian, at least you won't have centuries of dark ages to account for!

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2009, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The passage in my previous post clearly shows the relationship your god had with this servant. and what he did after the death of your god .. Of course Christians will disagree, my views are stabbing the very basic tenants of their beliefs!
Indeed Paul claims to have had a relationship with Jesus, but that relationship does not begin until some time after Jesus' death, after Jesus' ascension. Your initial post is written from the point of view that they had some sort of relationship prior to Jesus' death.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
before your God died, he was on bad terms with him..
M, you have told me that I don't need to define words for you, but clearly you are missing the fact that the words "before" (in your initial post) and "after" (in your most recent one above) do NOT mean the same thing. Your initial statement is simply categorically false, and that you think you can show support for it from the bible simply illustrates the degree to which you misunderstand and misrepresent the Bible -- I shall give you the benefit of the doubt that you honestly do so unknowingly, but you really do misrepresent the Christian scriptures every bit as much as you claim that we Christians misrepresent the Qur'an.
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Indeed Paul claims to have had a relationship with Jesus, but that relationship does not begin until some time after Jesus' death, after Jesus' ascension. Your initial post is written from the point of view that they had some sort of relationship prior to Jesus' death.
M, you have told me that I don't need to define words for you, but clearly you are missing the fact that the words "before" (in your initial post) and "after" (in your most recent one above) do NOT mean the same thing. Your initial statement is simply categorically false, and that you think you can show support for it from the bible simply illustrates the degree to which you misunderstand and misrepresent the Bible -- I shall give you the benefit of the doubt that you honestly do so unknowingly, but you really do misrepresent the Christian scriptures every bit as much as you claim that we Christians misrepresent the Qur'an.

Dear Gene, in order for us to keep our kinship in humanity amicable I suggest we don't engage each other on the comparative section. We won't see eye to eye and I can and will be quite ruthless.. I haven't misrepresented your religion at all, I only work with what I know of it to be logical to the naked eye without getting into nonsensical finite details. Until such a time you bring me a unified statement with proper Isnad having been said by Jesus himself to what you ascribe to him, my opinion will remain as is!

so let's agree to disagree and call it a day!

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2009, 10:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
so let's agree to disagree and call it a day!

all the best
I can do that. I don't think that you are likely to accept as valid any chain of authentication that I would produce, so I'll not waste either of our time with that. But I do hope that you can see why it is that your comments lack the authority you think is behind them when you speak to Christians. From our perspective, your comments do NOT pass the naked eye test as well as you think they do. They in fact often fail it miserably.

But as you often say in closing, I too wish you all the best. My Allah give you guidance as I know you seek to submit to his will in your life.

Peace,
Gene
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I can do that. I don't think that you are likely to accept as valid any chain of authentication that I would produce, so I'll not waste either of our time with that. But I do hope that you can see why it is that your comments lack the authority you think is behind them when you speak to Christians. From our perspective, your comments do NOT pass the naked eye test as well as you think they do. They in fact often fail it miserably.

But as you often say in closing, I too wish you all the best. My Allah give you guidance as I know you seek to submit to his will in your life.

Peace,
Gene

'Fail miserably' is simply because you follow your hopes and inclination, not because there is error in what I say (this is how others outside of Christianity view it)... The mere fact that you go by what Saul said is already accepting something on an apriori judgment.. he wasn't even an apostle appointed.. every dream and vision doesn't really denote weightiness or support to your practices even if you could produce a shred of evidence to its reality and narration and event occurrence (which you can't). It is merely what you found your forefathers on and continued yourself.

And it is fine.. that is what 'Faith' is, letting go of reason...

if we are going to go by 'faith' then I prefer the brand that makes more sense and is unwavering in its conviction.
as you can see your fellow christian, admits 'similar' quotes from the bible but passes them off as 'crap'
I don't wish to follow crap myself, or cut a part of my religion because it doesn't acquiesce to the latest from Manolo Blahnik!

all the best
Reply

memories
05-10-2009, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
'Fail miserably' is simply because you follow your hopes and inclination, not because there is error in what I say (this is how others outside of Christianity view it)... The mere fact that you go by what Saul said is already accepting something on an apriori judgment.. he wasn't even an apostle appointed.. every dream and vision doesn't really denote weightiness or support to your practices even if you could produce a shred of evidence to its reality and narration and event occurrence (which you can't). It is merely what you found your forefathers on and continued yourself.

And it is fine.. that is what 'Faith' is, letting go of reason...

if we are going to go by 'faith' then I prefer the brand that makes more sense and is unwavering in its conviction.
as you can see your fellow christian, admits 'similar' quotes from the bible but passes them off as 'crap'
I don't wish to follow crap myself, or cut a part of my religion because it doesn't acquiesce to the latest from Manolo Blahnik!

all the best

Then again you didnt understand a word I said, the passages you cited (women being inferior) can be considered as crap from a modern point of view,and most christian's dont consider those passages. but the same ''crap'' that is present in Islam is folowed blindly, making it a medieval religion.
even today in 2009, you are a very angry person, I sujest a few anger management classes, or if this forum is for you a way to vent out go at it!
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
Then again you didnt understand a word I said, the passages you cited (women being inferior) can be considered as crap from a modern point of view,and most christian's dont consider those passages. but the same ''crap'' that is present in Islam is folowed blindly, making it a medieval religion.
even today in 2009, you are a very angry person, I sujest a few anger management classes, or if this forum is for you a way to vent out go at it!

1-You say much ado about nothing.
2-It is really inconsequential to me what you consider crap or worthwhile in your bible or how you choose to define 'modernity' I have always believed that integrity and self-respect to be a timeless quality.
3- There are no similar passages in Islam to the bible..

let's have a look a side by side thing:

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

to

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

I say find me verses that address women with such disdain and misogyny in the Quran in fact I challenge you to!

as for who is angry, under-educated, and medieval, well, one only needs to have a look at your posts and the facts they contain.

and lastly, again, why follow a book that has things 'considered as crap' I know indeed there to be alot of crap in the bible not just pertaining to women.. but I often thought the whole purpose of religion is to find a sense of peace, purpose, and fulfillment and a plan of salvation and eternal bliss. Not to handpick a choc full of passages that you think are nice (even if they have never actually existed in original manuscript) and let go of the rest.. Is God wishy-washy? if he is, I think one is better off as an agnostic.. why go through the effort if it all pans out the same?


all the best
Reply

memories
05-10-2009, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
1-You say much ado about nothing.
2-It is really inconsequential to me what you consider crap or worthwhile in your bible or how you choose to define 'modernity' I have always believed that integrity and self-respect to be a timeless quality.
3- There are no similar passages in Islam to the bible..

let's have a look a side by side thing:

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

to

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

I say find me verses that address women with such disdain and misogyny in the Quran in fact I challenge you to!

as for who is angry, under-educated, and medieval, well, one only needs to have a look at your posts and the facts they contain.

and lastly, again, why follow a book that has things 'considered as crap' I know indeed there to be alot of crap in the bible not just pertaining to women.. but I often thought the whole purpose of religion is to find a sense of peace, purpose, and fulfillment and a plan of salvation and eternal bliss. Not to handpick a choc full of passages that you think are nice (even if they have never actually existed in original manuscript) and let go of the rest.. Is God wishy-washy? if he is, I think one is better off as an agnostic.. why go through the effort if it all pans out the same?


all the best
know that the bible and quran wer written by man, inspired by god, and not written by god. thats where the crap comes, also the prophet of islam ripped things from the catholique religion to incorporate in the coran.
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 10:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
know that the bible and quran wer written by man, inspired by god, and not written by god. thats where the crap comes, also the prophet of islam ripped things from the catholique religion to incorporate in the coran.

Great, I challenge you to prove the points you have just made!

all the best
Reply

NIKKY
05-10-2009, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
know that the bible and quran wer written by man, inspired by god, and not written by god. thats where the crap comes, also the prophet of islam ripped things from the catholique religion to incorporate in the coran.
dat is da funnist fing av heard...! were did dat cum frm...?
Reply

memories
05-10-2009, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Great, I challenge you to prove the points you have just made!

all the best
Im not a Doctor in theology such as you, excelency, but one has only to look at passages about ''Abraham asked by god to sacrifice his son'' etc, the same thing can be found in the islamic religion, its like if some one had taken a little bit of that and a little bit of this,(from judaism,Catholic) mixed it togheter, and produced a religion with it. yes, being agnostic is far better than that weird angry way you see things.
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
Im not a Doctor in theology such as you, excelency, but one has only to look at passages about ''Abraham asked by god to sacrifice his son'' etc, the same thing can be found in the islamic religion, its like if some one had taken a little bit of that and a little bit of this,(from judaism,Catholic) mixed it togheter, and produced a religion with it. yes, being agnostic is far better than that weird angry way you see things.

my doctorate ISN'T in theology for starters.
1- you made a point, now back it up.
2- indeed Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only son as per bible, is already lying to you one two levels
a- if it was his only son, then his only son at the time was Ishmael to which modern day palestine belongs ( the land of Palestine was "supposedly" promised to the seed of
Abraham. If one researches the Ancient Hebrew laws, the right of decent or
inheritance is based on the eldest son, no matter whom the mother is. If
this is the case, then the land was promised to Ishamel (for he was the
eldest of Abraham's sons) and the Father of Palestinian Arabs. In addition,
modern day Jews from Russia, Poland and most parts of Eastern Europe have NO
genetic link to the ancient Hebrews - they for the most part are decendents
of Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 7th century (this has been
documented by Jewish scholars, not Arabs). The modern day Palestinians can
claim a more direct link to the Hebrew tribes than the founders of modern day
"Israel." What the Western Press purposely avoids mentioning is the fact
that at the start of the 20th century, less than 5% of the land of Palestine
was Jewish. The modern State of Israel was built on lands illegally taken and
assimilated from Palestinian Christians and Muslims. Also, the Hebrews only
ruled the land of Palestine for a combined 411 years - the Muslims have ruled
the land for 1,500 years. In addition, the land of Canaan (Palestine) had a
history long before the Jewish tribes immigrated to the area.)

b- if his only son in this case was Issac as per your bible, then again, it is lying given that Abraham already had another son..


now the logical thing left for you to do, is find me the translator of the bible to Arabic that whispered the Quran in the prophet's ears so it comes out like a poem, with verses revealed as far apart as 22 yrs yet fall perfectly in style, context, lyricism..

also would like for you to find me Luqman, qawm tuba3, Aad, Erum, Thamud, Ahel Al kahf, zho el'qernyen in your bible, and how the prophet could have known of them as well...

I expect a very comprehensive list with dates, names and events..

you know as the saying goes.. 'if you can't put up, then shut up'


all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2009, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
b- if his only son in this case was Issac as per your bible, then again, it is lying given that Abraham already had another son..
M, why do you say that according to the Bible that Isaac is Abraham's only son. That is once again a misrepresentation of what it says. That phrase "your only son" is used with respect to Abraham and Isaac, but it does not pass what you just a few posts ago called the naked eye test. The phrase in its context means something different than to suggest that the Bible does not also recognize that Ishmael was also Abraham's son, and in fact the older brother of Isaac. So to suggest, as you did here, that the bible is lying when it describes Issac thusly is just another example of why you are seen as misrepresenting the Bible.
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
M, why do you say that according to the Bible that Isaac is Abraham's only son. That is once again a misrepresentation of what it says. That phrase "your only son" is used with respect to Abraham and Isaac, but it does not pass what you just a few posts ago called the naked eye test. The phrase in its context means something different than to suggest that the Bible does not also recognize that Ishmael was also Abraham's son, and in fact the older brother of Isaac. So to suggest, as you did here, that the bible is lying when it describes Issac thusly is just another example of why you are seen as misrepresenting the Bible.

that is because the bible is lying and the reason is rather obvious!

all the best
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 11:35 PM
Who had the covenant? Ishmael or Isaac?
The story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (May the mercy and blessings of Allah be on them all) is found in the Bible, much skewed and corrupted from the pure Islamic version. The reason this is so is because the book of Genesis, undoubtedly written by some Jewish Rabbi of the past would certainly be biased in his understanding of history between the two forefathers. There would be in him, whoever he was, the desire to paint his own ancestry, that is the seed of Isaac, in the brightest of colors, whereby either purposely or inadvertently condemning the rival (I.e. Ishmael) as the negative end of the spectrum. In other words, a Jew most certainly wrote Genesis, so Isaac, the father of the Jews and Abraham’s son, is presented in this blessed light, and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs is whereby presented in somewhat dark euphemisms, and foisted on him is the subtle racism and condescending attitude of the author.
This being said, it is evident that my own assumptions are true, because of the many gaps and inconsistencies which are clues left to us by the True and Almighty God in the Biblical account, which point us in the direction of the truth (I.E. of the Islamic version.)

1. Abraham (saas) was told by God that a Great Nation would come from him. (Genesis 12:2-3)

2. Sarah, Abraham’s wife doesn’t bear children at first. (Genesis 16:1)

3. Sarah whereby allowed Abraham to MARRY Hagar (Genesis 16:3) -This defeats the evangelical claim that Ishmael was illegitamite. Hagar conceives Ishmael. (genesis 16:4)

4. Later Sarah has Isaac. (Genesis 21:2)

So far so good. The story here is quite clear. A Prophecy for a great nation was said to come from Abraham. After Sarah seemingly cannot conceive, Hagar becomes Abraham’s second wife and conceives Ishmael. Later Sarah actually does conceive and has Isaac.

Biblical points which hold true to the Islamic perception of Ishmael and the pure lineage of Muhammad (saas):

1. Ishmael was Abraham’s first son. (Genesis 16:4)

2. God said that Hagar’s seed would be multiplied exceedingly. (Genesis 16:10)

3. God said Ishmael was blessed! (Genesis 17:20)

4. Ishmael is clearly called ‘Abraham’s seed’ by God. (Genesis 21:13)

4. God repeats His promise to make Ishmael a great nation FIVE TIMES! (Genesis 15:4) (Genesis 16:10) (Genesis 17:20) (Genesis 21:13) (Genesis 21:18)


From here the Islamic version and the Biblical account part ways. The Muslim holds that it was in fact Ishmael who had the covenant and not Isaac, whereas the bible states the opposite. The Muslim holds that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and again, the Bible states the opposite. The Muslim version states that both Isaac and Ishmael were pure blameless children of Abraham, both revered, whereas in the Biblical account, Isaac is revered and Ishmael is seen as a mean-spirited outcast. Let us review the shameful and undoubtedly corrupted view of Ishmael in the Bible:

1. Ishmael is called a ‘wild donkey of a man’: (Genesis 16:12)
2. Ishmael and his descendants are going to be known as troublemakers (Genesis 16:12)
3. Ishmael is considered illegitamite (This is a Christian claim which no Bible verse supports.)
4. Ishmael makes fun of Isaac and teases him: (Genesis 21:9)
5. Ishmael and his mother are cast out from Abrahams’ family (Genesis 21:10)

Now let us lay these preposterous and slanderous claims to rest.

Ishmael a wild donkey of a man?

This is where it becomes evident that the prejudice of the author seeps through. The Christian must remember that the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted, and history attests this, especially that of the Old Testament. God himself attests this in the Old Testament, saying, "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.” (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8) -So it is admitted within the Bible itself, that the Old Testament is corrupted. No independent scholar accepts the preposterous view that the first 5 books of the Bible were written by Moses as evangelicals claim. This indeed would be quite impossible because otherwise Moses refers to himself in the third person and even writes about his own death and the month that follows it.
Therefore, if the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted (Not wrong, but not always right either) then it is very well possible, from this viewpoint that the entire story of Ishmael and Isaac is skewed, handled malisciously from the pen of some overzealous rabbi who could not ignore fully his own prejudice and wishes, but yet also could not ignore fully the facts of history, being that both Ishmael and Isaac were blessed, revered and of highly esteemed moral character. Starting from this point we can see through the authors slanders and see to the truth, and that is that this particular verse, that is the verse of Ishmael being a ‘wild donkey’ of a man is an overly obvious forgery, and opinion of whoever the mildly racist author of this book is. –And his intent is quite clear. He wants to prove that the lineage of the Jews is pure, and that no non-jew could ever partake in the pure lineage of Abraham. This is undoubtedly the authors intention, because he goes to great lengths to ‘prove’ it. Consider the ‘all-to-convenient’ verbiage of Sarah as interjected by the author: “Wherefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondwoman and her son: For the son of a bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.’” (21:10).
As to the authors intention to show that the blood and lineage of the Jewish people is untainted, consider the fact that according to the Bible, Abraham and Sarah were brother and Sister! (Genesis 20:12.) This same author is the one who insulted the Prophet Lot by saying he had an incestuous drunken relationship with his two daughters, (Genesis 19:36) And Jacob was married to two sisters at the same time: (Genesis 29:28). The intention is clear, that the author of Genesis is either a pervert obsessed with incest, or he slanders honorable prophets with false stories of Incest in order to show that the blood of Isaac and his descendants (The Jews) is pure. It is for this reason the author feels the need to slander Ishmael and foist on him the false story of being ‘cast out’ of the family of Abraham. –It is also clearly, based on the evidence, a big lie. Ishmael was not a wild donkey of a man, but the author of Genesis sure was!

Ishmael and his descendants will ‘be against all men?’

The Bible says of Ishmael: “…his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” (Genesis 16:12)

In recent times this is probably the most oft-repeated verse against Ishmael and the Muslims used by Christians to prove a plethora of points. All one needs to do is point to the news to see that seemingly Ishmael’s seed truly is ‘against all men’ and ‘all men are against him.’ It is, to them, proof positive that the Bible is the word of God.
But there is a problem with this theory, and that is quite simply that only recently could this be applied. It wasn’t until the decline of the Ottomon Empire in the 1700’s that the Islamic world experienced a regression leading to a downward spiral of corruption, hopelessness, and violence.
One need not point out the fact that the oldest and indeed one of the first colleges on earth was founded by Muslims and is still on the earth today (Al-Azhar.) It is evident that whilst Europe was sunk in the dark ages, the civilized Muslims revived the learning of Aristotle and Plato, who otherwise would have been forgotten. There was a time when Baghdad, for example, was called, ‘The greatest city on earth.’ -And this title was given it by European scholars. Was it because the Arabs of Baghdad were mindless killers against all men? Of course not! It was because they were civilized learners who enjoyed a thriving economy! In fact, it was the Muslims who saved the Christians in their lands from the conquests of invaders, and it was the Turkish Muslims who later protected the Jews who fled persecution from Spain. Was it not the Muslim Salahaddin who granted all Christians in Jerusalem amnesty despite that fact that when Muslims were run out of Jerusalem years earlier the Christians boiled Muslim children alive in pots?
So there is well over a thousand years of the Muslim empire (now known as the Golden age of Islam) in which this whimsical sentence in the Bible was utterly false, and any attempt to apply it to Muslims would be deemed laughable by even the Christians! So what is more logical? To say this verse is true, when it has only been true for the past 100 years at best, which represents not even a glimmer in the existence of Islam, or to say that this is the interjection of some ancient Jew who had, as seen above, his own wicked intentions?

Ishmael is considered illegitimite?

This one I really don’t get. The Bible clearly states that Hagar and Abraham were married. (Genesis 16:3) Abraham is also spoken of in highly respected terms in the Bible? How is it that this highly respected Prophet had a child with a woman whom he was married to, and by the logic of some evangelicals this = illigetamite?
Of course not! So how can this be deemed an instance with which to judge Ishmael and say he was therefore excluded from the covenant? Based on what we have seen so far, we need not even address the last two biblical accounts of Ishmael teasing Isaac and whereby being cast out, as this is another obvious forgery by the baised author, whoever he was.

The Bible Had Ishmael and Isaac Confused!

The most common question to be asked by the Christian then is, how can the Muslims believe that Ishmael was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and that Ishmael got the covenant, when the Bible clearly states otherwise? Well, not to beat a dead horse, but the Muslim view of the Bible is that it is corrupted. So automatically, any story which contradicts Islamic teachings we view with skepticism. As seen already, the author of Genesis, where we find the account of Ishmael and Isaac, is also extremely baised. These facts alone are a red flag to the logical thinkers that just to accept this story as 100% authentic as it is presented in the Bible would be a great error.
With that being said, let us examine the story in the Bible again, and show that the author made some grave errors in his writing which proves that Ishmael and Isaac were confused:

The Bible states that Abraham was 99 years old when Ishmael was circumcised. Ishmael was 13 at the time. (Genesis 17:24-27)

Exactly one year later Isaac is born. (Genesis 21:4-5) So if Abraham was 99 when Ishmael was circumcised a year earlier, that would mean when Isaac is born, he is 100 years old, and Ishmael is 14.

Then comes the story of the sacrifice in the Bible: In Genesis 22, God tells Abraham to take ‘Thine ONLY son Isaac…’ -WHAT? Ishmael is 14 at the time? Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as Abrahams ONLY son? Many Christians will say that this is because God here is making it clear that Isaac is the only heir to the covenant, and that is why God refers to Isaac as ‘The ONLY son..’ but God clearly calls Ishmael the seed of Abraham according to Genesis 21:13, so such conclusions are impossible. The only conclusion is that the author of Genesis had Ishmael and Isaac confused.

Consider when Ishmael is cast out with Hagar into the desert in Genesis 21. What are the descriptions of Ishmael? Pay close attention to the following descriptions:

A. Ishmael is tucked under shrubs (Genesis 21:15)
B. He is called a ‘lad’ (Genesis 21:18, 20)
C. Hagar holds Ishmael in ONE HAND (Genesis 21:18)

Clearly the author is referring to an infant. But Ishmael is 14 at the time, how would he be tucked under shrubs and held in one hand of a weak woman who was dying of thirst? Why is he called a lad? Would this not more aptly apply to the infant Isaac who was only a year old and not to Ishmael who is a teenager?

Reply

memories
05-10-2009, 11:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
that is because the bible is lying and the reason is rather obvious!

all the best
Again this is from your angry, indoctrinated point of view:D I wont waste anymore time arguing with you, g-night, take care.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2009, 11:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
that is because the bible is lying and the reason is rather obvious!

all the best
Right! (said with dripping sarcasm)

That is why the line you cite is found in Genesis 22, immediately after the story of Ishmael in the previous chapter, because the Jews are so dense they would not be able to remember that they had just read about Abraham's son Ishmael. And a very well hidden lie too, I'm surprised you ever caught it.
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
Again this is from your angry, indoctrinated point of view:D I wont waste anymore time arguing with you, g-night, take care.

you seem to be under some impression that I am addressing you with my post? that is one
and two I made an entirely separate post as to who had the covenant

here:

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Who had the covenant? Ishmael or Isaac?
The story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (May the mercy and blessings of Allah be on them all) is found in the Bible, much skewed and corrupted from the pure Islamic version. The reason this is so is because the book of Genesis, undoubtedly written by some Jewish Rabbi of the past would certainly be biased in his understanding of history between the two forefathers. There would be in him, whoever he was, the desire to paint his own ancestry, that is the seed of Isaac, in the brightest of colors, whereby either purposely or inadvertently condemning the rival (I.e. Ishmael) as the negative end of the spectrum. In other words, a Jew most certainly wrote Genesis, so Isaac, the father of the Jews and Abraham’s son, is presented in this blessed light, and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs is whereby presented in somewhat dark euphemisms, and foisted on him is the subtle racism and condescending attitude of the author.
This being said, it is evident that my own assumptions are true, because of the many gaps and inconsistencies which are clues left to us by the True and Almighty God in the Biblical account, which point us in the direction of the truth (I.E. of the Islamic version.)

1. Abraham (saas) was told by God that a Great Nation would come from him. (Genesis 12:2-3)

2. Sarah, Abraham’s wife doesn’t bear children at first. (Genesis 16:1)

3. Sarah whereby allowed Abraham to MARRY Hagar (Genesis 16:3) -This defeats the evangelical claim that Ishmael was illegitamite. Hagar conceives Ishmael. (genesis 16:4)

4. Later Sarah has Isaac. (Genesis 21:2)

So far so good. The story here is quite clear. A Prophecy for a great nation was said to come from Abraham. After Sarah seemingly cannot conceive, Hagar becomes Abraham’s second wife and conceives Ishmael. Later Sarah actually does conceive and has Isaac.

Biblical points which hold true to the Islamic perception of Ishmael and the pure lineage of Muhammad (saas):

1. Ishmael was Abraham’s first son. (Genesis 16:4)

2. God said that Hagar’s seed would be multiplied exceedingly. (Genesis 16:10)

3. God said Ishmael was blessed! (Genesis 17:20)

4. Ishmael is clearly called ‘Abraham’s seed’ by God. (Genesis 21:13)

4. God repeats His promise to make Ishmael a great nation FIVE TIMES! (Genesis 15:4) (Genesis 16:10) (Genesis 17:20) (Genesis 21:13) (Genesis 21:18)


From here the Islamic version and the Biblical account part ways. The Muslim holds that it was in fact Ishmael who had the covenant and not Isaac, whereas the bible states the opposite. The Muslim holds that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and again, the Bible states the opposite. The Muslim version states that both Isaac and Ishmael were pure blameless children of Abraham, both revered, whereas in the Biblical account, Isaac is revered and Ishmael is seen as a mean-spirited outcast. Let us review the shameful and undoubtedly corrupted view of Ishmael in the Bible:

1. Ishmael is called a ‘wild donkey of a man’: (Genesis 16:12)
2. Ishmael and his descendants are going to be known as troublemakers (Genesis 16:12)
3. Ishmael is considered illegitamite (This is a Christian claim which no Bible verse supports.)
4. Ishmael makes fun of Isaac and teases him: (Genesis 21:9)
5. Ishmael and his mother are cast out from Abrahams’ family (Genesis 21:10)

Now let us lay these preposterous and slanderous claims to rest.

Ishmael a wild donkey of a man?

This is where it becomes evident that the prejudice of the author seeps through. The Christian must remember that the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted, and history attests this, especially that of the Old Testament. God himself attests this in the Old Testament, saying, "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.” (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8) -So it is admitted within the Bible itself, that the Old Testament is corrupted. No independent scholar accepts the preposterous view that the first 5 books of the Bible were written by Moses as evangelicals claim. This indeed would be quite impossible because otherwise Moses refers to himself in the third person and even writes about his own death and the month that follows it.
Therefore, if the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted (Not wrong, but not always right either) then it is very well possible, from this viewpoint that the entire story of Ishmael and Isaac is skewed, handled malisciously from the pen of some overzealous rabbi who could not ignore fully his own prejudice and wishes, but yet also could not ignore fully the facts of history, being that both Ishmael and Isaac were blessed, revered and of highly esteemed moral character. Starting from this point we can see through the authors slanders and see to the truth, and that is that this particular verse, that is the verse of Ishmael being a ‘wild donkey’ of a man is an overly obvious forgery, and opinion of whoever the mildly racist author of this book is. –And his intent is quite clear. He wants to prove that the lineage of the Jews is pure, and that no non-jew could ever partake in the pure lineage of Abraham. This is undoubtedly the authors intention, because he goes to great lengths to ‘prove’ it. Consider the ‘all-to-convenient’ verbiage of Sarah as interjected by the author: “Wherefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondwoman and her son: For the son of a bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.’” (21:10).
As to the authors intention to show that the blood and lineage of the Jewish people is untainted, consider the fact that according to the Bible, Abraham and Sarah were brother and Sister! (Genesis 20:12.) This same author is the one who insulted the Prophet Lot by saying he had an incestuous drunken relationship with his two daughters, (Genesis 19:36) And Jacob was married to two sisters at the same time: (Genesis 29:28). The intention is clear, that the author of Genesis is either a pervert obsessed with incest, or he slanders honorable prophets with false stories of Incest in order to show that the blood of Isaac and his descendants (The Jews) is pure. It is for this reason the author feels the need to slander Ishmael and foist on him the false story of being ‘cast out’ of the family of Abraham. –It is also clearly, based on the evidence, a big lie. Ishmael was not a wild donkey of a man, but the author of Genesis sure was!

Ishmael and his descendants will ‘be against all men?’

The Bible says of Ishmael: “…his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” (Genesis 16:12)

In recent times this is probably the most oft-repeated verse against Ishmael and the Muslims used by Christians to prove a plethora of points. All one needs to do is point to the news to see that seemingly Ishmael’s seed truly is ‘against all men’ and ‘all men are against him.’ It is, to them, proof positive that the Bible is the word of God.
But there is a problem with this theory, and that is quite simply that only recently could this be applied. It wasn’t until the decline of the Ottomon Empire in the 1700’s that the Islamic world experienced a regression leading to a downward spiral of corruption, hopelessness, and violence.
One need not point out the fact that the oldest and indeed one of the first colleges on earth was founded by Muslims and is still on the earth today (Al-Azhar.) It is evident that whilst Europe was sunk in the dark ages, the civilized Muslims revived the learning of Aristotle and Plato, who otherwise would have been forgotten. There was a time when Baghdad, for example, was called, ‘The greatest city on earth.’ -And this title was given it by European scholars. Was it because the Arabs of Baghdad were mindless killers against all men? Of course not! It was because they were civilized learners who enjoyed a thriving economy! In fact, it was the Muslims who saved the Christians in their lands from the conquests of invaders, and it was the Turkish Muslims who later protected the Jews who fled persecution from Spain. Was it not the Muslim Salahaddin who granted all Christians in Jerusalem amnesty despite that fact that when Muslims were run out of Jerusalem years earlier the Christians boiled Muslim children alive in pots?
So there is well over a thousand years of the Muslim empire (now known as the Golden age of Islam) in which this whimsical sentence in the Bible was utterly false, and any attempt to apply it to Muslims would be deemed laughable by even the Christians! So what is more logical? To say this verse is true, when it has only been true for the past 100 years at best, which represents not even a glimmer in the existence of Islam, or to say that this is the interjection of some ancient Jew who had, as seen above, his own wicked intentions?

Ishmael is considered illegitimite?

This one I really don’t get. The Bible clearly states that Hagar and Abraham were married. (Genesis 16:3) Abraham is also spoken of in highly respected terms in the Bible? How is it that this highly respected Prophet had a child with a woman whom he was married to, and by the logic of some evangelicals this = illigetamite?
Of course not! So how can this be deemed an instance with which to judge Ishmael and say he was therefore excluded from the covenant? Based on what we have seen so far, we need not even address the last two biblical accounts of Ishmael teasing Isaac and whereby being cast out, as this is another obvious forgery by the baised author, whoever he was.

The Bible Had Ishmael and Isaac Confused!

The most common question to be asked by the Christian then is, how can the Muslims believe that Ishmael was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and that Ishmael got the covenant, when the Bible clearly states otherwise? Well, not to beat a dead horse, but the Muslim view of the Bible is that it is corrupted. So automatically, any story which contradicts Islamic teachings we view with skepticism. As seen already, the author of Genesis, where we find the account of Ishmael and Isaac, is also extremely baised. These facts alone are a red flag to the logical thinkers that just to accept this story as 100% authentic as it is presented in the Bible would be a great error.
With that being said, let us examine the story in the Bible again, and show that the author made some grave errors in his writing which proves that Ishmael and Isaac were confused:

The Bible states that Abraham was 99 years old when Ishmael was circumcised. Ishmael was 13 at the time. (Genesis 17:24-27)

Exactly one year later Isaac is born. (Genesis 21:4-5) So if Abraham was 99 when Ishmael was circumcised a year earlier, that would mean when Isaac is born, he is 100 years old, and Ishmael is 14.

Then comes the story of the sacrifice in the Bible: In Genesis 22, God tells Abraham to take ‘Thine ONLY son Isaac…’ -WHAT? Ishmael is 14 at the time? Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as Abrahams ONLY son? Many Christians will say that this is because God here is making it clear that Isaac is the only heir to the covenant, and that is why God refers to Isaac as ‘The ONLY son..’ but God clearly calls Ishmael the seed of Abraham according to Genesis 21:13, so such conclusions are impossible. The only conclusion is that the author of Genesis had Ishmael and Isaac confused.

Consider when Ishmael is cast out with Hagar into the desert in Genesis 21. What are the descriptions of Ishmael? Pay close attention to the following descriptions:

A. Ishmael is tucked under shrubs (Genesis 21:15)
B. He is called a ‘lad’ (Genesis 21:18, 20)
C. Hagar holds Ishmael in ONE HAND (Genesis 21:18)

Clearly the author is referring to an infant. But Ishmael is 14 at the time, how would he be tucked under shrubs and held in one hand of a weak woman who was dying of thirst? Why is he called a lad? Would this not more aptly apply to the infant Isaac who was only a year old and not to Ishmael who is a teenager?
and in closure.. nothing would give us a greater pleasure than to see you go, as you seem to inspire nothing more than a minor itch on everyone's side

goodnight, so long, arrivederci, sayonara

hope this time it is for good though..
Reply

جوري
05-10-2009, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Right! (said with dripping sarcasm)

That is why the line you cite is found in Genesis 22, immediately after the story of Ishmael in the previous chapter, because the Jews are so dense they would not be able to remember that they had just read about Abraham's son Ishmael. And a very well hidden lie too, I'm surprised you ever caught it.
I didn't appear to have caught it alone. 1.86 billion people and growing have caught it too...
at the end of the day you are free to believe as you choose even if contrary to historical facts!
and good luck trying to sell the Jews the man/god before you get too ambitious of who had the covenant!

all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2009, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
[So automatically, any story which contradicts Islamic teachings we view with skepticism.
And therein lays the problem. It doesn't matter what the truth is, if it doesn't match up with Islamic teaching it is simply rejected out of hand.


In Genesis 22, God tells Abraham to take ‘Thine ONLY son Isaac…’ -WHAT? Ishmael is 14 at the time? Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as Abrahams ONLY son? Many Christians will say that this is because God here is making it clear that Isaac is the only heir to the covenant, and that is why God refers to Isaac as ‘The ONLY son..’ but God clearly calls Ishmael the seed of Abraham according to Genesis 21:13, so such conclusions are impossible. The only conclusion is that the author of Genesis had Ishmael and Isaac confused.
No. For this article is wrong in why it Christians attribute the covenant to have been made with Isaac. We do so fully recognizing that Ishmael is also to be blessed by God. But we also read these important words of scripture:
Genesis 17

19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."
There you have it. God does recognize and promise to bless Ishmael, but the special everlasting covenant is one he promised to Sarah's son, Isaac.

Oh, but I forgot, since this does not square with Islamic teaching it must automatically be viewed with skeptism. As I said, therein lays the problem, you accept that part of the Bible which you like and reject that which you don't. You have no standard for accepting or rejecting various biblical passages other than your preconceived bias toward a particular resultant message.
Reply

Woodrow
05-10-2009, 11:56 PM
I do not have the time or patience to baby sit a war zone today. If any of the mods feels he/she has time to moderate this thread and restore it to a debate instead of a war, he/she is welcome to reopen it. In the mean time:

:threadclo:
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