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glo
05-07-2009, 07:33 PM
European Muslims have much more loyalty to the countries they live in than is generally believed, a survey says.

The report by Gallup and the Coexist Foundation says 77% of British Muslims identified with the UK, compared with 50% of the general public.

There was a similar finding in Germany, the survey says.

The authors say their report counters a commonly-held view that measures to combat Islamic militancy may have alienated many European Muslims.

"This research shows that many of the assumptions about Muslims and integration are wide of the mark," said Dalia Mogahed of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies and co-author of the report.


"European Muslims want to be part of the wider community and contribute even more to society," she said.


The findings of the report are surprising, because since the 11 September attacks in the US commentators have repeatedly questioned the loyalties of European Muslims to the countries they live in, the BBC's Rob Broomby says.

The research - which focused mainly on European Muslims in Britain, France and Germany - polled around 500 Muslims and 1,000 members of the general public in each country.

'Isolated'


In Britain, the report found that more than three-quarters of Muslims identified with the country and its institutions - far more even than the general population did.

But whereas the vast majority of British Muslims (82%) felt Muslims were loyal citizens, the general public remained suspicious of them.

In Germany, 40% of Muslims identified with the country against 32% of the wider public.

German Muslims were also found far more likely than the general public to have confidence in the judicial system, financial institutions and the honesty of elections.

They had higher levels of confidence in their national government than society as a whole, but much less faith in the media.

In France, 52% of Muslims identified with the country, compared with 55% of the general public.

However, the report found that French Muslims had much less confidence in the nation's institutions, including police.

The survey also said that European Muslims felt far more isolated than those living in the United States and Canada.
From BBC
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Pygoscelis
05-07-2009, 11:15 PM
But the real question is which loyalty comes first, god or country. Would they turn against their country and fellow citizens if they thought their God told them to. Isn't that was the europeans fear about the muslims?
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GreyKode
05-07-2009, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But the real question is which loyalty comes first, god or country. Would they turn against their country and fellow citizens if they thought their God told them to. Isn't that was the europeans fear about the muslims?
To you what comes first, country or justice.
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Muhammad
05-07-2009, 11:39 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Would they turn against their country and fellow citizens if they thought their God told them to.
One could put this question to a member of any religion. In fact, it could be put to anyone.
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Yanal
05-08-2009, 01:13 AM
:sl:
The truth is yes us muslims would.
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greenshirt
05-08-2009, 05:28 AM
i've always wondered. people say that europeans liberal values make it such a welcoming place.

but i can say without a doubt that muslims in america are treated way better than in europe. in europe, it seems that muslims all live in muslim neighborhoods and dont get out too much with the non-muslims. and vice versa.

but in the USA, almost all of us live in non muslim dominated areas. yet we all seem to get along with our neighbors, and we work with non muslims and have no problems. i see women with hijabs walking with women without hijabs. this seems to intend muslims friends with non muslims and vice versa.

but when i have been to europe i dont see this as much. it seems most muslims chill with other muslims and most non with other non muslims.

i dont know but i think that the USA is more tolerant to muslims than europe. i wish muslims would quit choosing europe as their destination when the europeans seem to try to disenfranchise with them.

sure many muslims are loyal to their country and enjoy the freedoms they have. but of course never think that we agree with our countries on all issues. we disagree prevalently on many.
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justahumane
05-08-2009, 07:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
To you what comes first, country or justice.
The natural answer should be justice without any doubt. But again question arises is what is justice by muslim POV. For instance is it okay for a muslim to swear loyalty to any kufr regiem? Is it okay for a muslim to choose kufr living conditions (wine, nakedness, and what not), inspite of Islamic life? Should a muslim not strive for establishing the laws of ALLAH in kufr lands? Arnt a muslim obiliged to live under protest in such lands and try to take over? Should a muslim not be encouraged to demolish all places of worship which is dedicated to anyone besides ALLAH?

There are many such questions which makes it litrally impossible for a muslim to live in any europian or western country and equally impossible to non muslims not to cast their doubts over muslims.

Peace.
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crayon
05-08-2009, 09:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But the real question is which loyalty comes first, god or country. Would they turn against their country and fellow citizens if they thought their God told them to. Isn't that was the europeans fear about the muslims?

What brother Muhammad said is true, that question could be asked to anyone. And it doesn't even have to be a choice of God vs. Country, or Country vs. Justice; people have priorities, and no matter how much of a patriot someone may seem to be, sometimes things take precedent to their loyalty to their country. It could be something we don't even take into consideration when thinking about this issue, but to them it could be huge, for example their family, or their music/art/etc. or knowledge, etc.
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Thinker
05-08-2009, 09:53 AM
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...y-want-35.html

Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.
The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity.

There are lies, **** lies and statistics; are there lies, **** lies and polls?
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'Abd-al Latif
05-08-2009, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...y-want-35.html

Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.
The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity.

There are lies, **** lies and statistics; are there lies, **** lies and polls?
As a muslim I want to live under Islamic Law and you can't expect any practicing Muslim to say otherwise.

Do you expect fish to live without water? Why would you expect Muslims to want anything other then Islamic Law? You always seem to be surprised when Muslims call for Islamic Law to be implimented.

Now as for the Suicide bomers, I really do wonder sometimes where you get these quotes from because I really haven't heard this before and I live in London where there's a big Muslim community.
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Whatsthepoint
05-08-2009, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
As a muslim I want to live under Islamic Law and you can't expect any practicing Muslim to say otherwise.

Do you expect fish to live without water? Why would you expect Muslims to want anything other then Islamic Law? You always seem to be surprised when Muslims call for Islamic Law to be implimented.

Now as for the Suicide bomers, I really do wonder sometimes where you get these quotes from because I really haven't heard this before and I live in London where there's a big Muslim community.
The question is whether you want islamic law implemented on non-Mulsims as well, in the UK.
Another example is whether you ca accept blasphemy as a part of free speech, same-sex unions etc.
The second question aplies to every religion though.
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justahumane
05-08-2009, 12:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
As a muslim I want to live under Islamic Law and you can't expect any practicing Muslim to say otherwise.

Do you expect fish to live without water? Why would you expect Muslims to want anything other then Islamic Law? You always seem to be surprised when Muslims call for Islamic Law to be implimented.

Now as for the Suicide bomers, I really do wonder sometimes where you get these quotes from because I really haven't heard this before and I live in London where there's a big Muslim community.
Brother, only an idiot can expect a fish to live without water.

But if muslims are fishes, and shariyah laws are like water to them, than its really amazing that fishes choose to live without water. Have a look of Islamic nations for example.

No one need to expect muslims to live with anything except islamic laws, they have willingly abandoned laws of ALLAH, and replaced it with kufr laws. U need to check out for hard realities regarding muslims.

Doesnt they say that charity starts at home?

What more? See poor talibs being bombed in swat Pakistan alongwith innocent civilians just becoz they wanted to implement shariyah laws? Do U doubt religious identity of bombers?
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AntiKarateKid
05-08-2009, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But the real question is which loyalty comes first, god or country. Would they turn against their country and fellow citizens if they thought their God told them to. Isn't that was the europeans fear about the muslims?
Putting ones beliefs before blind loyalty to their country? Isn't that the essence of protest? Of all the major revolutions?

If an atheist believed that their morals and conscience conflicted with their country's would they turn against it? :blind:
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Thinker
05-08-2009, 12:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Now as for the Suicide bomers, I really do wonder sometimes where you get these quotes from because I really haven't heard this before and I live in London where there's a big Muslim community.
If you'd followed the link you would see that I got the quote from this forum and it was posted by forum member Alpha Jr. I would also like to know how two polls come up with different results, it could just be simply different questions although it's difficult to get my head around 82% supporting loyalty to the country whilst 20% sympathies with suicide bombers, but then 80/20 does fit the maths?
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GreyKode
05-08-2009, 12:52 PM
What more? See poor talibs being bombed in swat Pakistan alongwith innocent civilians just becoz they wanted to implement shariyah laws? Do U doubt religious identity of bombers?
Personally yes I do doubt it.
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GreyKode
05-08-2009, 12:57 PM
:enough!:
Al hamdolillah I don't live in the west or else I would have to deal with all this crap daily, it just never stops.

What will the muslims do if such and such happens...
Recent polls show that 99.999% of muslims do this and do that..
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glo
05-08-2009, 01:29 PM
GreyKode, polls only ever give the opinion of a cross-section of a population. That's why it is so important for the people conducting the poll to choose their participants carefully - otherwise the outcome can easily be misrepresenting the true picture.

As a non-Muslim I find the poll very informative - because hopefully it widens my understanding of what Muslims think.
I do meet Muslims daily ... but they are only a small minority, and may very well not represent Islam as a whole.

For example, the Muslims in my neighbourhood are all from rural Pakistan. Their views may vary from what Muslims from other areas think and believe. (I am not necessarily speaking about basic Islamic doctrine here, but other views and opinions)

Muslims in this forum clearly represent a wider range of nationalities, but overall the views presented here are conservatively Islamic, more liberal views expressed are often not accepted and I know of more liberal Muslims who have left the forum for that reason.
So I am not sure that the opinions expressed by the majority here in LI (again, I am not necessarily talking about basic Islamic doctrine but other views and opinions) represents the opinions of other Muslims elsewhere.


I found another relating article in The Independent

Here are the basic results:

77% of British Muslims said they strongly identified with the UK (Compared with 50% of the general population)

0% thought that homosexuality was morally acceptable (Compared to 57% of the general population)

76% had confidence in the police (Compared to 67%)

63% thought that the death penalty was morally acceptable (Compared to 50%)

3% believed people belonging to other religions threaten their way of life (Compared to 26%)

3% of British Muslims felt that sex outside marriage was morally acceptable (Compared to 82%)
This last point is interesting, because the poll suggests that there are great differences in opinion on this particular point between Muslims in Britain, France and Germany.
The article offers the following explanation:
The attitudes of Muslims in France and Germany is very different, where 48 per cent and 27 per cent had no problem with sex outside wedlock. This discrepancy is likely to be caused by the fact that British Muslims mainly originate from rural parts of conservative Islamic countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh and India, whereas French and German Muslims tend to be from Morocco, Algeria and Turkey, where the culture is different.
If this is the case it would indeed show different interpretations of Islamic laws, depending on geographical area, own culture and upbringing etc. :?

Any thoughts?
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aamirsaab
05-08-2009, 01:57 PM
:sl:
Generally speaking, I'd say forget polls and statistics; go out and meet some actual muslims in person. Engage with them....over a bucket of (halaal) chicken.

Honestly, you cannot go wrong!
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Yanal
05-08-2009, 02:06 PM
:sl:
Yeah some people don't care about what the question is they just tick one mark up and send it like it was a debt when it isn't it shows how careless how much people are in Europe.
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Thinker
05-08-2009, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by greenshirt
but i can say without a doubt that muslims in america are treated way better than in europe. in europe, it seems that muslims all live in muslim neighborhoods and dont get out too much with the non-muslims. and vice versa.
I agree with you, I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate. There's is also a nasty comment put about that integration is akin to assimilation like the assimilation seen in Star Trek by the Borg. Sad
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crayon
05-08-2009, 05:14 PM
^The problem is not with the muslim immigrants, it is with European society.
You have the same kind people from the same backgrounds immigrating to either North America or Europe. The ones that go to North America have relatively less problems in society than the muslims in Europe... So to me it seems like the problem is coming from the culture and beliefs of Europeans, rather than the muslim immigrants. There is something about their way of life/ideas/beliefs that causes friction with muslims, in comparison to that of North Americans.
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Muezzin
05-08-2009, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Generally speaking, I'd say forget polls and statistics; go out and meet some actual muslims in person. Engage with them....over a bucket of (halaal) chicken.

Honestly, you cannot go wrong!
Unless the non-Muslim person is a vegan.

I'd be kinda stumped as to what to feed this person. Unless we took a trip to the nearest fruit and veg shop.
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Whatsthepoint
05-08-2009, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
^The problem is not with the muslim immigrants, it is with European society.
You have the same kind people from the same backgrounds immigrating to either North America or Europe. The ones that go to North America have relatively less problems in society than the muslims in Europe... So to me it seems like the problem is coming from the culture and beliefs of Europeans, rather than the muslim immigrants. There is something about their way of life/ideas/beliefs that causes friction with muslims, in comparison to that of North Americans.
That is true, what's alos true is that Europan Muslims are mainly poor immigrants or their descendants who came to Europe as cheap labor force, whereas it was significantly harder to immigrate to the US, it still is actually.
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'Abd-al Latif
05-09-2009, 05:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother, only an idiot can expect a fish to live without water.

But if muslims are fishes, and shariyah laws are like water to them, than its really amazing that fishes choose to live without water. Have a look of Islamic nations for example.

No one need to expect muslims to live with anything except islamic laws, they have willingly abandoned laws of ALLAH, and replaced it with kufr laws. U need to check out for hard realities regarding muslims.

Doesnt they say that charity starts at home?

What more? See poor talibs being bombed in swat Pakistan alongwith innocent civilians just becoz they wanted to implement shariyah laws? Do U doubt religious identity of bombers?
Similar questions to this have been answered by me and many other members of the forum.

Islamic Law isn't abandoned by Muslims it's abandoned by puppet governments in the Muslim world which are selected by and for the western governments. Don't tell me what Muslims do or don't want because i'm a Muslim my self so I speak on behalf of the Muslims, and as for your claim of muslims abandoning the laws of Allah is your own lonely opinion. You need to face facts that Muslims are pushing for Shari'a, and as far as taliban is concerned, don't fool yourself with the media headlines. Just let the time pass and you'll see the results yourself just like every arrogant fool who thinks god is incompetent.

They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths but Allah will perfect His light, though the unbelievers may be averse.
[As-Saaf (The Ranks, Battle Aray) 61:08]

This light Allah is talking about is Islam.

And by the way, I aint your brother.
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'Abd-al Latif
05-09-2009, 05:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
If you'd followed the link you would see that I got the quote from this forum and it was posted by forum member Alpha Jr. I would also like to know how two polls come up with different results, it could just be simply different questions although it's difficult to get my head around 82% supporting loyalty to the country whilst 20% sympathies with suicide bombers, but then 80/20 does fit the maths?
My point has always been the same as before. I just want you to make a judgement from what you've seen of Islam and Muslims while being on this forum compared to most of the junk we all see around the internet as well as the on TV. We are human beings as well and we do sympathise with those who have undergone harm for no apparent reason.

It just puzzles me why it would occur ever so often to you that Muslims are barbaric and oppressive. That's what i've noticed from most of your posts.
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justahumane
05-09-2009, 07:32 AM
Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Similar questions to this have been answered by me and many other members of the forum.
But none of the answer is credible enough which can do justice with the question why muslim over the world have abandoned Islamic laws and opted for man made laws.

Islamic Law isn't abandoned by Muslims it's abandoned by puppet governments in the Muslim world which are selected by and for the western governments
Brother, I wont use the decent word "fool urself", instead I will say plz dont be misguided by puppet government myth being spread by so called muslims. U are just trying to make me digest the undigestibile logic 1.4 billlion poor muslims want to live under shariyah but their government dont obilige them. Sounds cheaply funny. Will U like to enlighten us how those poor shariyah-loving muslims are being forced to devour riba by their respective puppet governments? At gunpoint or some other way? Here make it clear that I m not talking about all muslims, but majority of them who call the shots, who are at war with ALLAH, and whom U are trying to defend.

Don't tell me what Muslims do or don't want because i'm a Muslim my self so I speak on behalf of the Muslims, and as for your claim of muslims abandoning the laws of Allah is your own lonely opinion.
Brother U are a pious muslims unlike most of ur bretherns, so U think that all of them are like urself, but U are balantly wrong about them. And it doesnt matter that truth is being spoken by masses or by one person, truth remains truth anyhow. And truth of the moment is that its Muslims themselves who have abandoned laws of ALLAH, had they honestly wanted to live under shariyah laws, there was no reason that ALLAH would not have helped them against all the western influence U are talking about. U may believe otherwise if U wish.

You need to face facts that Muslims are pushing for Shari'a, and as far as taliban is concerned, don't fool yourself with the media headlines. Just let the time pass and you'll see the results yourself just like every arrogant fool who thinks god is incompetent.
Brother U need to face hard reality that today a whopping majority of muslims are against implementation of shariyah, and they use foolish logics to justify their stand, like western governments angle. Regarding Talibaan, plz eleborate what U want to say about them. How I m fooling myself(Thanks for ur decency anyways). And its not me who believe that ALLAH is incompetent, its those so called muslims who stage the drama of reciting holy quran everyday and make it sure that they maintain the distance from its commands. How pathetic, isnt it?

And by the way, I aint your brother.
Brother to U is ur religion and to me is mine. We will do and behave according to our respective religions. ALLAH will judge the rest. I hope U cant afford to differ, or can U?
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Strzelecki
05-09-2009, 10:01 AM
The surprising part part is that this will come as a surprise to your general xenophobe and no one else.

*Yawn*
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Uthman
05-09-2009, 12:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I agree with you, I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate. There's is also a nasty comment put about that integration is akin to assimilation like the assimilation seen in Star Trek by the Borg. Sad
Resistance is futile? :D

Seriously though, it's unfair to generalise like that.
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Uthman
05-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Comment by Shelina Zahra Janmohamed:

Muslims: beyond the caricature

The Muslim attitudes survey reveals a loyal community, keen on integration – far from the usual stereotypes.

My British glass is half empty. According to a Gallup poll released yesterday, only half of the UK population identifies itself as very strongly British. And in Germany only 32% of the general public feels that way about being German. Who then identifies most strongly with their nation, reaching a whopping 77% in the UK? Muslims.

This refreshing piece of information is part of a wider picture that Gallup paints of a European Muslim population that is more tolerant and integrated, as well as more strongly identified with Europe's nations than other communities. It is an excellent and much-needed study, capable of informing the ongoing debate about the situation and place of Muslims in Europe.

The report investigates the usual allegations levelled at Muslims. It establishes that religiosity is no indicator of support for violence against civilians and that in the UK and Germany Muslims are more likely to state that violence is not justified for a noble cause than the general public.

This vital information needs to be channelled immediately into policy, where Muslims are only ever seen through the prism of violent extremism and are falsely considered to be predisposed to violence when in fact the opposite is the case.

The idea that Muslims want to live in isolated "ghettos" is also untrue. Muslims are in fact more likely to want to live in a neighbourhood that has a mix of ethnic and religious people: 67% of Muslims vs 58% of the general public in the UK, 83% vs 68% in France.

Muslims also believe that it is nonreligious actions that will lead to integration – language, jobs, education. For example, over 80% of Muslims in the UK, France and Germany believe that mastering the local language is critical.

Whilst both the general and the Muslim populations believe these things are essential for integration, these are the areas where Muslims are found to be disproportionately struggling. They have lower levels of employment and lower standards of living. For our public discourse and for government, this is where the focus needs to be and funding need to be applied.

The really worry is the gulf between how Muslims see their integration into society and how the wider population sees them. Some 82% of British Muslims say they are loyal to Britain. Only 36% of the general population believe British Muslims are loyal to the country.

This has its roots in misinformation and miscommunication across society and means we all need to work hard to dissipate the dark cloud of fear that hangs above our heads. The Gallup report points to other countries like Senegal, Sierra Leone and South Africa which have a very high level of tolerance and integration across society and suggests that this may be a result of governments that actively promote religious tolerance, recognise multiple religious traditions in official holidays and national celebrations and enshrine religious freedoms in the constitution.

As a British Muslim woman who wears the headscarf, I was particularly proud to see that in Britain the headscarf is seen positively. When asked what qualities it was associated with, a third said confidence and courage, and 41% said freedom. Some 37% said it enriched European culture.

Instead of building on the platform for understanding and communication that this report brings, the mainstream media coverage has sensationalised the report by reducing it to one thing: Muslim opinions about sexual relationships.

To be sure, Muslims are indeed more conservative than the general population, but this is perhaps a trait shared with other religious communities. In fact, the areas which concern Muslims are in some cases those that we find socially contentious anyway: pornography, abortion, suicide, homosexuality and extra-marital relations.

French Muslims appear to be more "liberal" with regards to sexual mores than German or British Muslims. This is a red herring. It does not necessarily mean that they have "more integrated" sexual attitudes. All it seems to reflect are broader views on sexuality in those countries. For example, the French public considers married men and women having an affair far more morally acceptable than Brits or Germans, and this difference is reflected in the Muslim population across all three countries.

The danger in focusing on sexuality as a litmus test of integration is that in turns this into a one-issue debate. The point here is that it is that it is completely irrelevant to a discussion of integration and a happily functioning society, where mutual respect and understanding for each others moral codes – whether we agree or not – ought to be the foundations for a shared vision of a shared society. We see this in the statistics about homosexuality: it's true that no Muslims in the UK found this to be morally acceptable (though there is a 5% margin of error for Muslims across all the statistics in the report). However, this needs to be seen in context of the fact that Muslims are more respectful of those different to themselves than the general British public. The important point here is not that we should have homogeneous social and moral attitudes, but that we can respect and live with those who hold opinions at different ends of that spectrum.

The message is this: we should use this report to silence those who spread hate once and for all. We need to move on from the monochromatic discussions of loyalty being either to the state or to religion, discussions that force a choice between "my way or the highway".

Our glass is actually more than half full. There is much hard work to be done, and many aspects of economic and social policy that need to be addressed, but the status quo offers all of us much hope for an integrated future. It is a future that can be built on the evidence before us of ample scope for dialogue and understanding.

Source

Shelina Zahra Janmohamed is a writer on British Islam and author of Love in a Headscarf.
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Muezzin
05-09-2009, 12:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I agree with you, I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate.
I suppose you extend this same disdain to the Chinatowns and the Little Italys and the Mini Polands throughout the world.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sayf Udeen
The surprising part part is that this will come as a surprise to your general xenophobe and no one else.

*Yawn*
Your general xenophobe wouldn't accept it if even 100% of Muslims swore fealty to the Western countries in which they live.

Luckily, impressing xenophobes is not the object of a Muslim's life.
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Thinker
05-10-2009, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I suppose you extend this same disdain to the Chinatowns and the Little Italys and the Mini Polands throughout the world.


Your general xenophobe wouldn't accept it if even 100% of Muslims swore fealty to the Western countries in which they live.

Luckily, impressing xenophobes is not the object of a Muslim's life.
I’ll say it again . . . I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate. I struggle to see how you can find fault in anything I have said there. You should look at yourself before you throw around terms such as disdain and xenophobe. With regards to Britain can I know what you want for yourself and for your children and their children and their children?

I agree that there are other non Muslim nationalities which have congregated in certain areas, I’ll agree it albeit that I don’t know of any although I can vaguely remember certain parts of London having a concentration of certain nationalities. In terms of numbers and the degree to which they integrate or not they are insignificant compared the places like Leicester, Bradford and parts of Birmingham. The Italians you speak of that came after the second world war have integrated, the second generation Chinese have integrated, if the Poles are here 50 years from now they will have integrated. None of these groups are returning back to they country of their parents for a wife. All of the children of these groups give their allegiance to Britain.
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Muezzin
05-10-2009, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I’ll say it again . . . I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate.
Way to miss the point.

I say again 'I suppose you extend this same disdain to the Chinatowns and the Little Italys and the Mini Polands throughout the world.'

I struggle to see how you can find fault in anything I have said there.
You seem to be unfairly focusing on Muslim communities when other communities do the same.

I personally don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the Little Italys and Chinatowns and Mini Polands.

You should look at yourself before you throw around terms such as disdain and xenophobe.
Please climb off your high-horse. Or chimp.

With regards to the word 'disdain', given that you've repeatedly stated all around this forum how concerned you are about the 'Mini Somalias' and 'Mini Pakistans' popping up around the UK, I thought that word was a fair description of your attitude towards this matter. If it is unfair, I apologise.

With regards to the word 'xenophobe', I was clearly replying to this post:

format_quote Originally Posted by Sayf Udeen
The surprising part part is that this will come as a surprise to your general xenophobe and no one else.

*Yawn*
I was clearly using the word 'xenophobe' in reply to this. I fail to see how you appear to have construed this to be a personal attack on you or otherwise objectionable.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
With regards to Britain can I know what you want for yourself and for your children and their children and their children?
Tolerant, peace, success and loads of pizza. What would you like?

I agree that there are other non Muslim nationalities which have congregated in certain areas, I’ll agree it albeit that I don’t know of any although I can vaguely remember certain parts of London having a concentration of certain nationalities.
Yes.

In terms of numbers and the degree to which they integrate or not they are insignificant compared the places like Leicester, Bradford and parts of Birmingham.
Your point being?

The Italians you speak of that came after the second world war have integrated, the second generation Chinese have integrated, if the Poles are here 50 years from now they will have integrated.
Lovely crystal ball. Where'd you get it?

And I don't like this nasty undercurrent where you're suggesting that second and third generation Muslims have not integrated. You have no evidence to back this up, no facts, no figures, no anecdotes. Just an axe to grind.

To you, what constitutes integration? Paying taxes? Obeying the law? Generally not making a nuisance of yourself? What?

None of these groups are returning back to they country of their parents for a wife.
Wow, given that you just implied you don't have much knowledge of areas with high ethnic minorities, I'm amazed that you know so much about their wedding habits.

Besides, Chinese students who come to the UK to study tend to emigrate back to China for work. And they're really nice, really intelligent people.

Also, I'm not sure I like your implication that Muslim groups return 'to the country of their parents for a wife'.

Firstly, what business is it of yours where anyone decides to find a spouse?

Secondly, why is the fact that some people do go back 'to the country of their parents' necessarily a bad thing?

All of the children of these groups give their allegiance to Britain.
Nice, scientific reasoning there. I suppose you have facts and figures to back your opinion up about these groups of people you've never met. Because at the moment, in a thread whose point is to show that in many countries Muslims are more loyal than their non-Muslim countrymen, you truly appear as if you have an agenda against Muslims in Britain.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But the real question is which loyalty comes first, god or country. Would they turn against their country and fellow citizens if they thought their God told them to. Isn't that was the europeans fear about the muslims?
If 'my' God tells me, directly and personally, to turn against my country and fellow citizens, or to do anything else for that matter, I will quite gladly have myself committed.

What a silly question.
Reply

Thinker
05-10-2009, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Way to miss the point.
With regards to the word 'disdain', given that you've repeatedly stated all around this forum how concerned you are about the 'Mini Somalias' and 'Mini Pakistans' popping up around the UK, I thought that word was a fair description of your attitude towards this matter. If it is unfair, I apologise.
Thinking this through, I clearly didn’t think it through too well as the other major group who don’t integrate in the UK are Indians and they are not Muslim. So I conclude that the reluctance to integrate is cultural and wonder whether the cultural influence that binds both Indian and Pakistani is their reluctance to integrate is their propensity towards marrying relatives.
Reply

memories
05-11-2009, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
To you what comes first, country or justice.
It depends on the notion you have of justice.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
05-11-2009, 11:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
To you what comes first, country or justice.
What about when in Rome do as the Romans do?
Reply

aamirsaab
05-11-2009, 11:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What about when in Rome do as the Romans do?
Rome was one city. Britain is 4 countries so apples and oranges argument. 'Sides, the only thing muzzies aren't doing that the ''romans'' are amount to:

drinking
gambling
commiting adultery

Even then, some ''romans'' don't perform the above, which brings me onto the next point: British culture is an amalgamation of many cultures - which one in particular should muslims conform to? Scottish? Welsh? Irish? English? Is it a mixture, if so what weighting? Which ones in particular? What exactly do muslims need to do in order to integrate? Need to be very specific about this.

Also, in conforming to one/many of those cultures, does that mean muslims have to completely abolish their own cultural norms, which would be eliminating their freedoms? Take into account the UK is secularist ''free'' country.

Is it truly the path of integration that some people want muslims to walk? Or is it assimilation, because there is a big difference between the two.

p.s; the points made in this post are not directed at any one particular individual.
Reply

MO783
05-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Allah knows Best
Reply

Whatsthepoint
05-11-2009, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Rome was one city. Britain is 4 countries so apples and oranges argument. 'Sides, the only thing muzzies aren't doing that the ''romans'' are amount to:

drinking
gambling
commiting adultery

Even then, some ''romans'' don't perform the above, which brings me onto the next point: British culture is an amalgamation of many cultures - which one in particular should muslims conform to? Scottish? Welsh? Irish? English? Is it a mixture, if so what weighting? Which ones in particular? What exactly do muslims need to do in order to integrate? Need to be very specific about this.

Also, in conforming to one/many of those cultures, does that mean muslims have to completely abolish their own cultural norms, which would be eliminating their freedoms? Take into account the UK is secularist ''free'' country.

Is it truly the path of integration that some people want muslims to walk? Or is it assimilation, because there is a big difference between the two.

p.s; the points made in this post are not directed at any one particular individual.
They needn't abandon their culture, they need to accept other ones, all in the spirit of secular democracy and multiculturalism and yes I agree that Britain today is diverse, but an Islamic state would mean exactly the opposite.
You can't give multiculturalism to people who wish to abolish it as soon as they get to power.
Tht is assuming Muslims want an Islamic state and will become the majority.
Reply

Foxhole
05-11-2009, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
The survey is lame. It's full of softball questions that don't get to the heart of the matter (I mean, "Do you support terrorist attacks on civiilans? No? Hey, that's terrific!"), or focus on areas where there has been strife.

From this survey, who can tell me the percentages of Muslims who believe that a Muslim should be able to convert to another faith?

From this survey, who can tell me the percentage of Muslims who believe that a nation with a large enough Muslim population should have laws for Muslims and laws for non-Muslims?

From this survey, who can tell me the percentage of Muslims who believe that the offensive cartoons published in the Jyllands-Posten should be censored by law?

One interesting result:

Only 9% of British Muslims felt "integration" necessitates "accepting public comments they perceive as offensive about their faith or ethnicity". In other words, 91% of British Muslims feel that they can claim to be assimilated while "not accepting" offensive comments about Islam.

I think that's telling. Of course, as with the rest of this vague survey, what "accepting" means is not defined, when it could easily have been by asking specifically about freedom of speech.

So, a lame whitewash of the real issues. Again. Any time Muslims are surveyed, you can be sure the real core questions about coexistence between Islam and the west will not be asked.
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Muezzin
05-11-2009, 07:06 PM
What's stopping you conducting your own survey, Foxhole?
Reply

Foxhole
05-11-2009, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
What's stopping you conducting your own survey, Foxhole?
It's not what I do. What's your point?
Reply

جوري
05-11-2009, 07:19 PM
not enough resources, perhaps he can hit some gulf states to fund his projects and print it in the 'orientalist manifesto!'
Reply

Muezzin
05-11-2009, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
It's not what I do. What's your point?
Well, if you feel so strongly about the matter, surely you'd have the will to act upon it and improve the situation? Especially given that you've actually suggested other, more probing lines of questioning.
Reply

memories
05-11-2009, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Well, if you feel so strongly about the matter, surely you'd have the will to act upon it and improve the situation? Especially given that you've actually suggested other, more probing lines of questioning.
Hes only expressing an oppinion that pherhaps the survey dodging the real questions (wich it is) no Mocking comments like ''do your own survey'' is needed.
Reply

Foxhole
05-11-2009, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Well, if you feel so strongly about the matter, surely you'd have the will to act upon it and improve the situation? Especially given that you've actually suggested other, more probing lines of questioning.
Oh, I can ask until my face turns blue. Questions like mine make Muslims uneasy and they avoid answering them. Or they them. At least not generally.

But let me give it a shot, and I'll start with you:

Do you believe, in a nation with a significant Muslim population, that Muslims have a right to establish a separate criminal code for Muslims (as opposed to a one-law-for-all approach as most countries use)?

Do you believe that public expressions (writing, drawings, etc.) that are offensive to the religious sensibilities of a group should be legally censored?

Do you believe that Muslims should have the right to publicly renounce their faith without fear of retribution from the state?
Reply

Muezzin
05-11-2009, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
Hes only expressing an oppinion that pherhaps the survey dodging the real questions (wich it is) no Mocking comments like ''do your own survey'' is needed.
No?

Not even when these same complaints are continuously, repeatedly made? Not even in the absence of any surveys that are as probing as suggested?

Nobody wants to redress the balance? They just want to complain?

Wow.
Reply

Foxhole
05-11-2009, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
Oh, I can ask until my face turns blue. Questions like mine make Muslims uneasy and they avoid answering them. Or they them. At least not generally.

But let me give it a shot, and I'll start with you:

Do you believe, in a nation with a significant Muslim population, that Muslims have a right to establish a separate criminal code for Muslims (as opposed to a one-law-for-all approach as most countries use)?

Do you believe that public expressions (writing, drawings, etc.) that are offensive to the religious sensibilities of a group should be legally censored?

Do you believe that Muslims should have the right to publicly renounce their faith without fear of retribution from the state?
Meant "or they don't answer them with any specificity"
Reply

جوري
05-11-2009, 07:41 PM
Do you believe, in a nation with a significant Muslim population, that Muslims have a right to establish a separate criminal code for Muslims (as opposed to a one-law-for-all approach as most countries use)?
Yes-- if it doesn't affect you, then it shouldn't bother you!
Do you believe that public expressions (writing, drawings, etc.) that are offensive to the religious sensibilities of a group should be legally censored?
absolutely and tried criminally such as the case with any libel and slander, or I should expect mockery of the holocaust without a peep just the same.
Do you believe that Muslims should have the right to publicly renounce their faith without fear of retribution from the state?
If the state is an Islamic state, then they should be tried for treason


specific enough?

all the best
Reply

Muezzin
05-11-2009, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
Oh, I can ask until my face turns blue. Questions like mine make Muslims uneasy and they avoid answering them. Or they them. At least not generally.

But let me give it a shot, and I'll start with you:
Goody.

Do you believe, in a nation with a significant Muslim population, that Muslims have a right to establish a separate criminal code for Muslims (as opposed to a one-law-for-all approach as most countries use)?
Nope. The criminal code is far too sensitive a beast for dual-systems.

However, I think everyone, Muslim or not, would benefit from the option of Sharia-compliant courts in civil matters, such as divorce.

Do you believe that public expressions (writing, drawings, etc.) that are offensive to the religious sensibilities of a group should be legally censored?
Nope.

However, I think public expressions should be responsible, and not the equivalent of Internet trolling. Serious points and questions can be asked in a civilised manner without deliberately causing offence. Also, I think setting out solely to cause offence is immoral. I don't think it should be illegal. It should be socially shunned. If you expressly forbid something, you make it all the more desirable.

Do you believe that Muslims should have the right to publicly renounce their faith without fear of retribution from the state?
Yep. The state would always have bigger fish to fry.

The thing you're referring to, the punishment for apostacy... it was only relevant in times of war, specifically when non-Muslims were at war with Muslims, and there was spying etc. It was for treason. That's not really relevant now, in my humble opinion.
Reply

Foxhole
05-11-2009, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Yes-- if it doesn't affect you, then it shouldn't bother you!


absolutely and tried criminally such as the case with any libel and slander, or I should expect mockery of the holocaust without a peep just the same.

If the state is an Islamic state, then they should be tried for treason


specific enough?

all the best
Yes, specific enough, thank you.
Reply

جوري
05-11-2009, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Foxhole
Yes, specific enough, thank you.

great, all the best
Reply

Whatsthepoint
05-11-2009, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
absolutely and tried criminally such as the case with any libel and slander, or I should expect mockery of the holocaust without a peep just the same.
You live in the US it is completely legal to deny or make fun of the holocaust there.
Reply

Foxhole
05-11-2009, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Goody.


Nope. The criminal code is far too sensitive a beast for dual-systems.

However, I think everyone, Muslim or not, would benefit from the option of Sharia-compliant courts in civil matters, such as divorce.


Nope.

However, I think public expressions should be responsible, and not the equivalent of Internet trolling. Serious points and questions can be asked in a civilised manner without deliberately causing offence. Also, I think setting out solely to cause offence is immoral. I don't think it should be illegal. It should be socially shunned.


Yep. The state would always have bigger fish to fry.

The thing you're referring to, the punishment for apostacy... it was only relevant in times of war, specifically when non-Muslims were at war with Muslims, and there was spying etc. It was for treason. That's not really relevant now, in my humble opinion.
Bravo. I can now summarize my poll:

NEW POLL OF MUSLIMS RELEASED

50% of Muslims believe that there should be laws for Muslims and laws for ...

(just kidding)

But, OK, I'll take my criticism for claiming that Muslims are uneasy about such questions, when I got at least two clear responses right off the bat.
Reply

Muezzin
05-11-2009, 07:51 PM
See? Everyone's happy :)

But seriously, I think you're right, more probing questions should be asked. If it's a serious issue, if it's a question of tension and things, it can only help to know exactly where everyone is coming from, whether they agree or not.
Reply

Uthman
05-20-2009, 06:04 PM
Comment by Dalia Mogahed:

Studying Muslim integration in Europe


Our data indicates that Muslims are eager to contribute and play a more recognised role in advancing the best interests of their nation.

One of the most pervasive underlying assumptions in the discourse on European Muslim integration is that Muslim religiosity is a threat to Europe. Those who believe in the irreconcilability of western and Muslim identity generally argue that Muslim piety, expressed in religious symbols and moral conservatism, contrasted against the backdrop of secular and sexually liberal Europe, is a recipe for increasingly insular Muslim communities and profound alienation from European national identity. These isolated communities, the argument continues, not only represent an illiberal island challenging western democratic values, but are a "cesspool" for radicalisation.

Integration, defined as conformity with majority culture, is therefore seen as a vital security measure and a defence against dual loyalty citizens.

However, the recent Gallup study paints a very different picture. While Muslims in three European countries are indeed highly religious and socially conservative, this neither leads to a sympathy for terrorist acts, a desire to isolate nor a lack of national loyalty.

The Gallup Coexist Index is a global study of public perceptions regarding interfaith relations spanning four continents. The sampled population in the UK included 1,001 respondents from all over the country interviewed by phone through RDD (random digit dial). In addition, 504 respondents who self-identified as Muslim were polled in face-to-face interviews in England, Wales and Scotland.

A major finding of the study, in a continent where religiosity often means social ostracism, is that Muslims in all three nations strongly identify with their country and their faith. In fact, overwhelming majorities of Muslims in France, Germany and the UK say that Muslims in their country are loyal to the nation in which they reside. Interestingly, only a minority within the general public of each nation share that view. In fact, British Muslims are more likely than the general public to say that they strongly identify with the UK Similar attitudes are expressed when asked about confidence in a variety of national institutions, where Muslim confidence levels mirror, if not exceed, the general publics' with regard to the national government, local police, transparency of elections or the judicial system.

An issue of common concern throughout Europe is the prevalence of neighbourhoods in European cities which amount to ethnic enclaves. Yet when Muslims and the general public are asked about the type of neighbourhood they would prefer to live in, majorities in both populations choose to live in a neighbourhood which is ethnically and religiously diverse. In fact, British Muslim respondents were more likely to express this opinion than the general public. Yet in the UK, the Muslim employment rate, at 38% compared with 62% of the general public, implies that, similarly to minorities in the United States, where one lives is often dictated by socioeconomic realities rather than cultural preferences.

Such data clearly highlights the importance, particularly in the UK, of shifting the discourse on integration from an obsession with differences on moral questions to engaging the socioeconomic challenges that Muslims, like most minority communities, face in western societies. The importance that Muslims (and the general public) place in finding a job, coupled with their low employment rate means that many are not realizing their aspirations in contributing to the "national good". Policies directed at the integration of Muslim communities should focus on increasing educational opportunities and at "job readiness" for a community, which the data indicates, is eager to contribute and play a more recognised role in advancing the best interests of their nation.

Some may argue with the reliability of the study with regard to measuring British Muslim opinion. However, an important logistical challenge that this study has overcome, is the difficulty in gathering a nationally representative sample of a community as small in numbers as Muslims in the UK. In 2001 the British census estimated that Muslims comprise 3-4% of the country's total population. The challenges in devising a methodology, not logistically prohibitive, that randomly selects respondents of such a small population are not new to this area of survey research. To overcome this challenge, our study focused on areas where Muslims make up 5% or more of the local population which allowed for a representative study of British Muslims. Once these areas were identified, the process of data collection mirrored those applied by Gallup worldwide, using random route procedures rendering all Muslims in those areas with an equal chance for selection in the study.

Others have highlighted the racial, ethnic and cultural diversity of British Muslims as a reason to caution against examining them as one group. It is certainly true that the Muslim population in each nation focused on in this study, like the global Muslim population, is quite diverse. Yet it makes little sense to ignore Muslims as a group when conducting scientific research, yet obsess over them as such when discussing social issues such as barriers to social cohesion. If Muslims are similar enough to be "lumped in" as one group when discussing their attitudes on terrorism, or other hot topic issues in the public domain, it would seem disingenuous to suddenly highlight their diversity as a negation of scientifically gathered data on their views as a group. The notion that communities with diverse attitudes or histories cannot be compared statistically would negate the ability of researchers to study any group, including the British public, within which is also a diversity of opinion and regional history. British citizens of Wales, for example, are certainly not identical to those in Scotland or England.

Integration should not be a code word for ideological and aesthetic conformity but cooperation across communities to serve the national interest. The data clearly highlights that, while the discourse on Muslim integration continues to obsess over the moral conservatism of Muslim communities, British Muslims strongly identify with their nation and are eager to contribute to the national good.

Source

Dalia Mogahed is executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies.
Reply

Thinker
05-21-2009, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Comment by Dalia Mogahed:

Studying Muslim integration in Europe


Source

Dalia Mogahed is executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies.
Encouraging report :sunny:
Reply

ragdollcat1982
05-22-2009, 01:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You live in the US it is completely legal to deny or make fun of the holocaust there.

Unless it is slander, libel or yelling fire in a crowded theatre we have the ability to express ourselves freely. I oppose censorship and I appreciate freedom of religion. I would not want too live in a nation like Saudi Arabia, Iran or Afganistan myself as I find their laws too oppressive, however they are sovereign nations and have a right to make their own laws.
Reply

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