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Thinker
05-17-2009, 01:10 PM
I thought I knew the answer to that question from what I had learnt here but after a recent conversation with a Muslim friend of a friend I am now not sure. Is it simply a matter of complying with the 5 pillars of Islam? The man in question accepted and rejected any verse of the Qu’ran, any hadith and any aspect of the sunnah as fitted with his personal beliefs. He wouldn’t even commit himself to agreeing that every verse of the Qu’ran was the word of God rather than the words of Muhammad. I found myself suggesting (from what I have learnt here) that with such beliefs he could not legitimately call himself Muslim but when he asked why not I was stumped.
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Imam
05-17-2009, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The man in question accepted and rejected any verse of the Qu’ran, any hadith and any aspect of the sunnah as fitted with his personal beliefs. He wouldn’t even commit himself to agreeing that every verse of the Qu’ran was the word of God rather than the words of Muhammad.
If such man denied a word from the Quran to be truly inspired from God then he chose his fate...

Holy Quran [2:85]
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-17-2009, 02:45 PM
I think you aught to show ur friend that verse above. He cant call himself a Muslim and reject bits of the Qu'raan or any part of Islam...

Allah also says when you accept Islam as your religion it should be wholeheartedly...not half and half.
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Yanal
05-17-2009, 05:35 PM
When you stop praying,don't read the Quran,don't remember Allah and do not fulfill the pillars then you are a non believer making you not a muslim.
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FatimaAsSideqah
05-17-2009, 09:59 PM
:sl:

Every Muslim knows that the key to Paradise is the statment, "There is none worthy of worship except Allah."

we should all realize that all of the Quran and Hadith complement each other and explain one another. If we study the verses of the Quran and the Hadith of the Prophet (pbuh), we will find that the conditions of the shahadah are seven, eight or nine in number depending on how we look at them. It is important that all of us make sure that we are meeting these conditions in our own lives and in our own testimony of faith. We must do our best to satisfy these conditions before it is too late and our testimony will be no avail whatsoever. for all of us to look to ourselves and to make sure that we are actually meeting these conditions so that, by Allah's mercy, the doors to Paradise will be open for us by our key of la ilaha illa-llah.

If no one follows that of above, then they are not Muslims. Allah Ta'ala knows best!
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Thinker
05-18-2009, 09:06 AM
The man in question says that to call himslef a Muslim he is only requried recite and believe the shahada and nothing more (other than the other 4 pillars)

“There is no god but God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God"

I have seen lots of posts here saying that Muslims should do this and not do that where does it say you are no longer a Muslim if you don’t do those things?
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Chuck
05-18-2009, 09:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The man in question says that to call himslef a Muslim he is only requried recite and believe the shahada and nothing more (other than the other 4 pillars)

“There is no god but God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God"

I have seen lots of posts here saying that Muslims should do this and not do that where does it say you are no longer a Muslim if you don’t do those things?
I'm not clear what he is saying exactly, so I'll ask a simple question. Does he reject 5 pillars of Islam?
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HopeFul
05-18-2009, 10:04 AM
What he says is not true. A muslim is a muslim by faith and action, there are many ahadees that tell the tales of Muslims leaving the fold of islam if they do certain actions ( sins) because they no do befit the person who has the fear of Allah in his heart.

A muslim is one who loves and fears Allah rfom the core of his heart and accepts Allah as his creator and obeys His word in Quran and Hadees.

some muslims sin, no doubt, they momentarily get distracted from their duty to Allah, but they ahve firm belief, then Allah guides them back to virtue, to His path, but if the faith is corrupted then the person is no longer a muslims even though he may pray five times as that would not be to Allah but either out of a daily habbit or some other such excuse..

hence your friend who's faith is not just incomplete but non existant , may no longer be a muslim.. and Allah knows best.

Example is this:

When you take your parents to be your parens you fear them of finding out of you doing things they wont like and avoid them, you love them and you obey them generally.. thats because you accept them that they are your parents seeing all that thye have done for youa nd always seeing thema round alhough you may Not even have witnessed your mother giving birth to you, you dont remember...

Similar way Allah ahs made us, he has given us everything, and He is our Lord, if we KNOW that and accept it, we could at ealst be fearful of Him on the same leve, it being a bit differnt than parents as you cannot see Him , but we surely can feel him and what He gives us is much more than parents as our parents have no control on our illnesses, susbtainance, marriage, life, death, disease and health...

When one realises this, he is a muslim, otherwise..he is not.
May Allah guide your freind, ameen.
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Thinker
05-19-2009, 09:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
I'm not clear what he is saying exactly, so I'll ask a simple question. Does he reject 5 pillars of Islam?
No - that's his point, he accepts that but says that because he accepts the 5 pillars does not mean that he must accept every verse of the Qu'ran or follow the sunnah.
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Chuck
05-19-2009, 10:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
No - that's his point, he accepts that but says that because he accepts the 5 pillars does not mean that he must accept every verse of the Qu'ran or follow the sunnah.
Normally anyone who accepts the 5 pillars is a muslim. 5 Pillars includes following Quran and sunnah. But with Quran and Sunnah it gets complicated, because people differ on interpretation of verses and what is sunnah and what is not.

Is he rejecting the verses or the interpretation of verses? Is he completely rejecting the sunnah?
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Malaikah
05-19-2009, 10:41 AM
A person who claims even something as little as a single letter of the Quran as being not from God can NOT be a Muslim (unless he can successfully plead ignorance).

I can't find the exact references for you right now but Allah Himself told us that He will protect the Quran from corruption, and if a person claims otherwise he has belied God and to claim that God lied or failed is disbelief without a shadow of a doubt.

Islam is not only about the 5 pillars. There are also the 6 pillars of faith that a person must accept entirely, and that belief in God, the angels, the books (including the Quran) the messengers, the Day of Judgements and predestination.
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Chuck
05-19-2009, 10:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
A person who claims even something as little as a single letter of the Quran as being not from God can NOT be a Muslim (unless he can successfully plead ignorance).

I can't find the exact references for you right now but Allah Himself told us that He will protect the Quran from corruption, and if a person claims otherwise he has belied God and to claim that God lied or failed is disbelief without a shadow of a doubt.

Islam is not only about the 5 pillars. There are also the 6 pillars of faith that a person must accept entirely, and that belief in God, the angels, the books (including the Quran) the messengers, the Day of Judgements and predestination.
Sister there is no need of 6th pillar, first one is shahada which includes Quran and Sunnah. Rest of the pillars are from Quran and Sunnah too.
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Malaikah
05-19-2009, 11:18 AM
I'm not sure what you mean brother but these are six pillars that are mentioned in the hadith where the prophet explains what faith is.
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'Abd-al Latif
05-19-2009, 11:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Sister there is no need of 6th pillar, first one is shahada which includes Quran and Sunnah. Rest of the pillars are from Quran and Sunnah too.
The first pillar of Islam consists of 6 sub pillars of belief.

Faith in the sense of belief is based on six principles, which are mentioned in the hadeeth of Jibreel (peace be upon him), when he questioned the Prophet (saaws) who said: “Faith means to believe in Allaah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day, and the Divine Decree, both good and bad.” (Agreed upon).
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Thinker
05-19-2009, 11:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
5 Pillars includes following Quran and sunnah.
Where in the 5 pillars does it say that Muslims must follow the sunnah?
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'Abd-al Latif
05-19-2009, 11:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Where in the 5 pillars does it say that Muslims must follow the sunnah?
I assume you still haven't understood the concept of hadeeth?

Check my last post, the first pillar of faith requires you believe in Allah and His books. This subsequently means to believe in the Qur'an and Allah says in many verses in the Qur'an to obey the Messenger.

Allah says:

"What the Messanger teaches you, take it; and what he forbids you, avoid doing it."(59:7)

And He says:

"But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." (4:65)

And He also says:

"It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." (33:36)

There are other verses which oblige the Muslim to accept the full authority of the Prophet.
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Muhammad
05-19-2009, 11:44 AM
Greetings,

In addition to the above, it can be understood from the first pillar, the testimony of faith:

“There is no deity worthy of being worshipped except Allaah, and there is no one worthy to be followed except Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)."

Believing that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Messenger of Allaah (swt) includes fully accepting his message and following his Sunnah.
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Chuck
05-19-2009, 05:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
I'm not sure what you mean brother but these are six pillars that are mentioned in the hadith where the prophet explains what faith is.
There is no sixth pillar. As the brother above mentioned first pillar has sub sections. According to Kharijites sixth pillar was Jihad but that has always been unapproved by mainstream scholars.

I think other brs has explained it well, but I'll add my 2 cents.

(1) shahad is proclaiming that you believe in one God and his messenger and you will follow that messenger. That is following Quran and Sunnah, if it is not that then tell me what it is then?

(2) 5 pillars are the basic tenets derived from Quran, they are not outside Quran and thus sunnah. A person cannot take them in isolation against Quran and sunnah, this would be absurd :blind::giggling:

5 pillars are what they are as they are in Quran; all the 5 pillars are there in the Quran. There is no word shahada per se in Quran, but it means basic Islamic creed. That is what it is "Islamic creed".

As for Thinker's question whether that person is muslim or not, well I've encountered thinker before, s/he has a habit of taking thinkings out of context and unnecessarily argumentative. And I think, s/he is taking this thread into that direction too. Thats why I asked:
(1) Whether that guy is rejecting verses or certain interpretations of them?
(2) Whether he is rejecting sunnah competely or he accepts sunnah in general but doesn't believe or follow certain things in sunnah?

First part no muslim would do but second part is whole different ball game.

For example:
A) Allegedly 'wife beating' verse. There are certain people I know who doesn't accept that interpretation. They say word has two meanings and according to sunnah its meaning is not 'beat' but 'separate.' Because thats what Prophet (pbuh) did instead of beating his wife (wives). He (pbuh) separated when he had some argument going on with his wives.

Some other I know take its meaning as beat but they have reservation with the verse.

B) Some people have disagreements what is sunnah and what is not. For example, according to some people eating with hands is not sunnah or applicable as sunnah, just as riding a camel is not sunnah or applicable as sunnah.

However, they people still believe in the Quran as whole and sunnah in general even though they have disagreements or/and reservations over certain interpretations of verses or/and certain things in sunnah.

I wouldn't take these people out of Islam as these are gray areas and even Islamic scholars had/have differing opinions about them.

I hope this makes clear.
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Ansariyah
05-19-2009, 10:01 PM
ALlah knows best wat he is...Maybe he's ignorant. How can he reject the Quraan?....That's like Rejecting Islam.
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'Abd-al Latif
05-19-2009, 10:39 PM
Chuck, i'm sure that's what the sister meant as she was talking about the pillar of Faith.
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جوري
05-19-2009, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
The man in question says that to call himslef a Muslim he is only requried recite and believe the shahada and nothing more (other than the other 4 pillars)

“There is no god but God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God"

I have seen lots of posts here saying that Muslims should do this and not do that where does it say you are no longer a Muslim if you don’t do those things?

there is a difference between a fasiq and a kaffir.. let me look around to see if a knowledgeable admin here addressed that already..
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جوري
05-19-2009, 11:14 PM
yup.. here we go:

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...tml#post273476

Ansar Al-'Adl
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Re: the word kafir !!!! - 04-24-2006

:sl: Ahmad,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allahs_slave


I heard that kufr means covering the truth or something like that!
There are different kinds of kufr.
Quote:
what about a person who konws that islam is the truth .. and believes that there is allah and mohammad is his messenger ... but drinks commits adultry doesnt pray or fast and doesn't know nyting bout islam , (not talkin bout myself btw lol) ... is he/she considered kafir?
A sinful Muslim is considered a fasiq (sinner), not a kafir, but because you mentioned the fact that they don't pray there is some difference of opinion. Someone who abandons prayer is said by some scholars to be a kafir, while others state he is a major sinner.
Quote:
one more thing ... bout people who never heard of somehting called islam .. or heard about it ,but never got to know it .. do they go to hell ?
No. This was discussed in many many other threads:
http://www.islamicboard.com/270362-post11.html
Allah swt tells us in the Qur'an that He does not punish until He sends a warner.
Quote:
i think alot of people around the world hear the word islam and muslim thru the media or wtever .. and they die without knwin what its about ... do you think allaah will punish them for not seekin the truth ?
Allah swt will judge them according to their individual circumstances. It is not for us to decide their fate.
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doorster
05-19-2009, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Sister there is no need of 6th pillar, first one is shahada which includes Quran and Sunnah. Rest of the pillars are from Quran and Sunnah too.
do people not confuse articles of faith with 5 pillars of Islam. former are the actions latter are the beliefs

:w:
Edit
would neglecting one of the pillars be same as denying/rejecting one of the articles of faith? methinks not!

denying anyone of the following will result in what?

belief in:
Existence of Allah, His Angels, All prophets of Allah, previous books, day of judgement and Power of Allah over all creation
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Chuck
05-20-2009, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
do people not confuse articles of faith with 5 pillars of Islam. former are the actions latter are the beliefs

:w:
Edit
would neglecting one of the pillars be same as denying/rejecting one of the articles of faith? methinks not!

denying anyone of the following will result in what?

belief in:
Existence of Allah, His Angels, All prophets of Allah, previous books, day of judgement and Power of Allah over all creation
Good point.
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Zico
05-21-2009, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
When is a Muslim not a Muslim?
When a Muslim substitutes reason with ignorance, rational thought with myths, and common sense with stupidity!
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Tony
05-21-2009, 04:28 PM
pardon me, but is it not one of the major sins to stayte that another muslim is not a muslim. only Allah knows
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Zico
05-21-2009, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
pardon me, but is it not one of the major sins to stayte that another muslim is not a muslim. only Allah knows
I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not but...
Indeed you are correct, however if you reread what I wrote you will see that it is not me who points and declares other muslims s/he is not a muslim, it s/he does that by his/her own ignorance, belief in myths and stupidity that will lead him astray. That is what I really meant :)
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Tony
05-21-2009, 04:40 PM
no worries bro, just felt that maybe it ought to be mentioned for the sake of Allah. peace:D
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Zico
05-21-2009, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
no worries bro, just felt that maybe it ought to be mentioned for the sake of Allah. peace:D
And for the sake of Allah :arabic2: it must be!
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Sampharo
05-26-2009, 05:31 PM
Hey guys,

Let me see if I can help and shed some light here.

A muslim is a muslim by decalaration of Shahada that there is no god but the One God, Allah, free from all partners, and that Mohammed is his Messenger, his Apostle. He commits to the 5 pillars of Islam (Declaration of Belief, Daily prayers, fasting of Ramadan, Zakat of his capital, and pilgrimage to Mecca) and the six tenets of faith (Belief in God, his Angels, his Messengers, his Books, Judgement Day, and fate whether good or bad). Negating or declaring any of those to be false takes the person directly out of the fold of Islam and with unanimous agreement across the scholars, whomever does so is not a muslim. As brother Chuck before mentioned, the Khawarej (defectors) added Jihad as a pillar. Even though Jihad is one of the highest most glorious deeds one can perform under its proper conditions, making it a pillar is falsification of God's dictated religion and takes one out of its fold.

Not performing the pillars though out of neglect or laziness is not kufr, for example a person who does not fast out of weakness of will or lack of concern, but is a huge sinner. Prayer though is different. Majority of scholars believe that neglecting prayer is an act of kufr even if it is out of laziness, citing many hadiths such as "The difference between the believer and an infidel is leaving prayer" and "Between a person and kufr is neglect of prayer", as well as Quranic verses and other hadiths that say lack of prayer erases all deeds just like disbelief and that it corrupts the faith and religion completely. Other scholars say that it is not an apostacy (ridda) kind of kufr, but a smaller kufr which is "Kufr Bel-NeAAma", and they cite Hadiths and Quranic verses such as "God forgives all sins except Shirk (worshipping others besides God), and forgives whatever is beneath that" or "No person who said "There is no god but The God, Allah" will spend eternity in hellfire". The four Imams were split on that, Ibn Hanbal maintained that it is full apostacy, while Abu Haneefa maintained it is the lesser one. It is Abu Haneefa who also introduced the argument that if an apostate's repentence is to make a declaration (Shahada) and to declare the tenets of faith and recognize the pillars, then the neglector of prayer is already repented since he already made and maintains the Shahada and recognizes the tenets of faith and pillars of Islam. Malik and Shafie were for a while of the opinion like Abu Haneefa, but later changed and agreed with Ahmed Ibn Hanbal. It's important to note that this disagreement is regarding the position of the person as a muslim, and whether or not he should be regarded, and therefore treated under an Islamic ruling, as an apostate. All scholars agree however that neglect of prayer corrupts all other deeds and is a complete eradicator of faith.

Now, with regards to the Quran, its fundamental characteristic dictated in Islam and proven is that it is infallible, and the prophet dictated that it will be preserved till Judgement Day and it is not for anyone to touch it or try to suggest adjustments or negate a ruling. Muslims believe all God's books including the Torat, Zabour, Sohof and the Bible, but we believe in their existence and correctness as they were sent at their time only. Muslims know they were modified, and their modification was confirmed by sources from within that religion as well as the Quran and the prophet -pbuh- and we are required not to take from them anything as per the incident when Umar Ibn El-Khattab came to the prophet -pbuh- and showed him a copy of the Torat and asked if he can read it and seek knowledge from it, and the prophet told him not to, and said that there will be falsehoods that he (Umar) might take as true, and truths that he might consider false, so he shouldn't seek anything in it for teaching or guideance (it is permissible of course to study them to understand Christian and jewish beliefs and be able to communicate and debate them). However, it is unanimous amongst scholars that negating or declaring false a part or or the whole of the Quran, would scar one's belief and take him out of the fold of Islam, since it denies the book's central dictated feature of being infallible and fully preserved.

Sunnah is slightly different however as per the asker. If a person denies a specific hadith or certain hadiths because he believes they are not authentic based on measurement or judgement of narration, it is not a sin at all. It is in fact what scholars do until today. Although the Bukhary and Moslem Sahih are regarded as the most accurate respected pieces of work Islam and humanity has seen, they are still works of normal humans, and questioning them is not a sin, even if it is based on poor work or judgement.

The sin comes when a hadith is neglected or denied based on pride, convenience or personal preference. As in some people who do not wish to talk about the prophet's marriage to Aisha at that age (out of lack of knowledge of the incident and its actual normalcy) would just say the hadith is not true so as not to bother arguing or defending. Or the hadith about a certain sunnah prayer because they don't want to commit to them. Pushing that further by arguing it with other muslims and non-muslims to try and establish it is Zandaqa, and is a huge sin for whomever does it carries its burden and the burden of every person who ever does it based on their talk. Equally any who support a disproven hadith out of pride or personal preference and later trying to push it to others as true. God forbid any of us to fall unwittingly in that, however it is still a major sin, not kufr.

Denying Sunnah and the need to follow any of it in entirity is, without doubt, an act that takes the person out of the fold of Islam. It scars the person's belief in the prophet's standing as the Apostle, and the foundation of direct orders within the Quran to follow the orders of the prophet. Additionally, denying Sunnah completely means that the methodology of fard prayer will be lacking, as according to the Quran for example only three fard prayers per day were literally mentioned and by that a person denying the Sunnay entirely will not pray Duhr and Maghreb, like the Quraaniin.

Hope this was informative and that I did not a head ache of such a long read for my first post. :)

And as always, God knows Best
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