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Follower
05-19-2009, 04:29 PM
of Christianity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridians

"The main source of information about them comes from their strongest opponent, Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote about them in his Panarion of about AD 375. According to Epiphanius, certain women in then-largely-pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary"

005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?
SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
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Grace Seeker
05-22-2009, 06:35 AM
The biggest problem I have with that theory, Follower, is found in the very article you reference:
there is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in Muhammad's time (the 6th and 7th centuries AD).
It seems more likely that Muhammad simply misunderstood the Catholic practice of veneration of Mary or that he did understand it and still objected to it as having so much of the form of worship (even if it wasn't claimed to be worship) that he perceived it as worship regardless.

If you could find evidence that Collyridianism still existed into the 6th century, then I think you would have a much better case. It wouldn't even have to be located near Muhammad, just some place that he could have run into it in his travels as a merchant and trader.
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'Abd-al Latif
05-22-2009, 11:01 AM
If you're refering to this:





Then this is what I found in the dictionairy.com's encyclopedia:

Collyridianism was an obscure early Christian heretical movement whose adherents apparently worshipped Mary, the mother of Jesus, as a goddess. The main source of information about them comes from their strongest opponent, Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote about them in his Panarion of about AD 375. According to Epiphanius, certain women in then-largely pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary, and offered little cakes or bread-rolls (Greek κολλυρις – a word occurring in the Septuagint) to her. Epiphanius states that Collyridianism originated in Thrace and Scythia, although it may have first travelled to those regions from Syria or Asia Minor. Little else is known.

In his book The Virgin, however, Geoffrey Ashe puts forward the hypothesis that the Collyridians represented a parallel Marian religion to Christianity, founded by first-generation followers of the Virgin Mary, whose doctrines were later subsumed by the Church at the Council of Ephesus in 432. Some women interested in feminist spirituality claim the Collyridians as precursors.

The Collyridians have become of interest in some recent Muslim-Christian religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity. The debate hinges on some verses in the Qur'an, primarily , , and in the sura Al-Ma'ida, which have been taken to imply that Christians considered Mary part of the Trinity. This has never been a mainstream or widespread doctrine among Christian or quasi-Christian groups at any period of history, and has led to speculation that Muhammad was mistaken, perhaps confusing heretical Collyridian beliefs with those of orthodox Christianity. However, there is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in Muhammad's time (the 6th and 7th centuries AD). Some reject the interpretation according to which the Qur'an is said to assert that Mary was part of the Trinity, as the relevant statements can be seen as emphasizing the purely human nature of Mary to reinforce the Islamic belief in the purely human nature of Jesus.
References

* Madrid, Patrick. "Collyridianism" ewtn.com. Retrieved January 11, 2006.
The main problem is that non-muslims think that Muhammad authored the Qur'an and is not from Almight God. The Qur'an however is full of parables and proofs that it was not authored by a human being. Of the proofs are:

There is the challenge to write something similar to the Qur'an and i'm sure you have heard this many times. After Prophet Muhammad died, what impact did he have on his companions? Did the way they eat changed? Did they way they interact change? Did they way they go to the toilet change? The question isn't what changed, the question is what didn't change. And what was the source of this immense change for these dwellers of the desert? It was the Qur'an. Since no other literature has ever such an impact on a human being is there any doubt that this could be from another except the Creator?

Allah says:

Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction [al-Nisa 4:82 interpretation of the meaning]*

p.s.: I don't know if my first quote is the same what Follower quoted in his first post because I haven't read it.
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'Abd-al Latif
05-22-2009, 01:56 PM
Follower, you're level of ignorance concerning Islamic teachings is truely a wonder.

Of all the posts that people have made refuting your feeble claims you seemed to have learned nothing. You said:

The people in the picture are simply doing what muslims do to the kaaba and black stone.
False.

We worship towards the ka'ba just as the jews worship towards jerusalem and we do not venetrate the Ka'ba as the Christians venetrate Jesus or Mary, if anything a single drop of blood of a Muslim is more precious then the Ka'ba itself.

The black stone is only kissed because the Prophet kissed it and the famous companion 'Umar bin Khattab said "You are nothing but a stone. Had I not seen the Messenger of Allah kiss you, I would not have kissed you".

If you want answers to the rest of your questions then search the board outside the Comparitive Religion section and you're in for a shock.

I don't see any wisdom in argueing with someone who has lost reasoning and sincerity:

:threadclo:
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