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Tony
05-20-2009, 11:41 AM
Mods I tried to put this in brothers section but wouldnt let me do it, not sure why.
Can someone shed some light on the subject of circumsision. I have two boys 3 and 4, my wife is constantly telling me we need to cicumsize them, it is causing problems for us and we argue. My wife is welcome to have her own way with everything, she bore my children and it it the least I can do. But I cannot back down over this, my reasons are as follows.
1) I cannot get past the belief that we would be mutilating our children.
2) We are not perfect in our imaan so how can we then subject our children to a procedure that is part of religion, I strongly think that untill we are right in the eyes of Allah we cannot expect our children to go through this to benefit our own beliefs
3) How is it right to mutilate the body when it is Allahs perfection, we do not adorn our bodies with tattoos, peircings etc, I do not understand this point as circumsission seems to go against Allah, We may as well cut of our noses !
4) They are my world and to take something from them seems wrong.

Apologies if offending anyone, this is the least I am trying to do. Please can someone knowledgeable help me here. It may be cultural thing but its becoming a big problem. My wife is Turkish and to go live in Turkey she says we must do it. Please help a dad in distress. Peace
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Dawud_uk
05-20-2009, 12:04 PM
:sl:

do you believe in Allah's book?

do you believe muhammad (saws) didnt speak from his own desires but that his words and actions are also sources of guidance from Allah to us?

if so how can you question what has been commanded?

did ibrahim (as) ask for the reasons for circumcision or did he just hear and obey even though he was in his 80's at the time?

:sl:
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Maimunah
05-20-2009, 12:10 PM
Male circumcision is among the rites of Islam and is part of the fitrah, or the natural character and instinct of the human creation.

Prophet Muhammad (salalahu aleyhi wasalaam) said, "Five are the acts quite akin to fitrah:Circumcision, clipping or shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking or shaving the hair under the armpits and clipping (or shaving) the moustache." (Reported in Bukhari & Muslim)

:w:
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جوري
05-20-2009, 12:14 PM
It is best to circumcise children when they are born -- however now you can do it under general anesthesia so they won't have a memory of it!

:w:
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crayon
05-20-2009, 12:28 PM
edit

I don't know what else there is to say besides the fact circumcision is obligatory, this isn't something that scholars differ upon, they are unanimous. Like brother dawud said, Islam is a package deal, you've got to take it all as it is, there's no picking and choosing.
Plus, it's supposedly much easier when you're little than when you get older, so if you don't do it now, when your kids get older and decide to do it themselves, they may resent you for not having taken care of this when they were younger.
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Tony
05-20-2009, 12:39 PM
Thanks for responses, not sure why people being so short tho, these are my children not some objects that I can give up or do without, its easy to qyestion my belief in the Qur'an or Muhammads (pbuh) teachings, I am genuinely stuck if it was as easy as saying it is my duty then I would not have neede to post at all. Please I need help not just flippant remarks that require little or no thought. It maybe easy to throw up details of Abrahams sacrifices, I am not Abraham and to some extent this is my point. I am prepared to take the suffering and punishment if nescessarry, I just want someone to explain the points I raised. If you have no children please do not bother to post a reply
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crayon
05-20-2009, 01:08 PM
I reread our posts, and couldn't find any short or flippant remarks at all, they're all respectful. If you found my post rude somehow, I apologize, it wasn't meant to be. :)

I'm unsure what it is you're stuck on, it's a clear command from Allah; circumcise your children. Some people may not see the logic in hijab, or praying 5 times a day, or growing a beard, but Islam is submission, it is submitting ourselves to the will of Allah whether we understand it or not.

Perhaps this is the problem; you said "It may be cultural thing but its becoming a big problem.". Maybe you are perceiving it as a cultural thing; whereas in reality, it's a part of Islam through and through.
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HopeFul
05-20-2009, 01:11 PM
Assalamoalaikum Brother,

I have kids too and my husband seemed to have thought like you but when I told him about the sunnah he did it immediately, although he is not religious at all

he couldnt bear to be with him during the operation time or didnt even see the ring of the smaller one but he did get it done.. Alhamdolillah

removing the skin is just like cutting nails, or hair when they grow or clearing/shaving off pubic hair ( which hurts a lot if one is waxing... EVERY TIME) but it is part of cleaning oneself.

Are you even aware of all the diseases that they can catch if you dont remove it for them? And what if they become religious when they are grown men, they would have to show their aura to strangers to get it cut. AND in addition to this they will even hurt muc more than they would right now.

When theya re young they dont feel pain, my older one delayed until he was almost 2 because of living in france where we couldnt arrange it, i remember I ws going to cry when he would try and pass urine and it would urt but even then it only hurt for around 10 hours and by 24 hours he was up and running an perfectly normal and his size had increased alot as well hehehe

When they grow older the older they grow the more pain they will feel, I suggest get it done soon. the loose skin is very sensitive to STDs, and there are many other problems that are caused due to it, e.g occasionally it swells up and sometimes it dries and itches and sometimes it gets hard around the head etc etc.

There are only and only benefits for removing the skin and only diadvantages for keeping it. Even lots of non muslims have the foreskin removed due to health benefits.
If you love your sons you will get them circumcised because a few hours pain would cause them many eayrs of pleasure and closeness to Allah in addition to it.

These explainations would only be needed by someone who .. requires wordly explainations, yet nevertheless sometimes we all do..

May Allahy gie you taufeeq to do the best for your children, Ameen.
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Tony
05-20-2009, 01:14 PM
ok crayon, then perhaps problem is mine about percieving flippant remarks. I think that if my islam is not right there is things I need to improve before doing this to my childrfen. I am ready to change things as Allah demands but I am not questioning that cicumsission is ordained, just struggling with it as a concept. I do not understand why Allah would create us with skin and how its right to "mutilate" his perfect creation by removing it. I just want the answers is all, cannot bare the thought of harming my kids but am seeking guidance because I want to do right for Allah, this is my area where sacrifice is hard, we all have them, I would genuinley offer my right hand instead if it would be accepted. I am trying and it is an emotive subject for me, pls understand, also I was not brought up in Islam, I recognised it as truth, I think this is part of why I struggle here, I am all for children and really seek guidance on the original points
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Tony
05-20-2009, 01:19 PM
Hopeful, God bless you, this is exactly what I needed to hear. I cant thank you enough. may Allah bless your familly. Fete du beau reve
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HopeFul
05-20-2009, 01:21 PM
I think what you are aksing is what I asked once when I was young. If we have to cut our nails, then why did Allah amke them grow in the first place? if te apendix is removed and does not have an function anyway, then why is it placed there when it gives such an immense pain while removing it and normally it happens when one is young. When the everyone is supposed to be good then why ws evil created when Allah KNEW what shaytaan would do. When Allah knows how we are why does He expect of us things e.g prayer, fasting etc..

It is not MUTILATING the body, do not call it that, there is some surplus skin that is surgically removed. That is al there is to it brother. As I said before, they will feel pain for some hours and then they will not feel a thing.

Allah made such things to test us, Inthe quraa it says again and again that we were sent down here in duniya to be tested, how much we obey Him. When there is a sunnat or command form Alah th reward is much more when there are obstacles as Allah KNOWS how you struggled to attain that satte of submission, hence the gift of paradise, something that your imagination cannnot surpass.
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Tony
05-20-2009, 01:24 PM
Thanks people, I think that when it is done then the least I should do is to go first ! Just need to pray first and accept the need for real sacrifices in order to truly proove my belief. Peace
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HopeFul
05-20-2009, 01:27 PM
JazakAllah brother, May Allah give you the strength and determination to carry out your duty in the best way, ameen.
P.s I didnt see your post, so I posted again :D hehehe
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Tony
05-20-2009, 01:29 PM
Thanks again. just one last thing, can someone pls direct me to any passages of Qur'an relating to this
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HopeFul
05-20-2009, 01:43 PM
As Maimunah pointed it out, it is stated in an authentic Hadees:


Prophet Muhammad (salalahu aleyhi wasalaam) said, "Five are the acts quite akin to fitrah:Circumcision, clipping or shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking or shaving the hair under the armpits and clipping (or shaving) the moustache." (Reported in Bukhari & Muslim)

I don't think it is in the quraan, same way as growing a beard is not in the quraan or the timings of Salat or the amounts of its rakats. As long as it is in a Hadees , authentic one then one shjould follow.

JazakAllah
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KashifB
05-20-2009, 01:52 PM
Along with being a command, there are also lots of medical benefits of male circumcision, Googled it:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...f+circumcision
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alcurad
05-20-2009, 01:56 PM
the scholars have differed actually, since there is no evidence for it being obligatory, the only indication of it being part of our religion is what the prophet said:
" الفطرة خمس الختان والاستحداد وقص الشارب وتقليم الأظفار ونتف الآباط "

"five are from the fitrah etc"

notice he mentions cutting the nails and trimming the mustache alongside circumcision without differentiating, that means if there is any ruling to be derived then all of these actions are equal, deriving a ruling would not be accurate however, since you can not trim your mustache etc.

it is most likely sunna, and has benefits for health and so on, but I'm not a doctor.
if you really don't want to do it then don't, it was obligatory on the Jews, not us, still I'd advise you to do it, it's benefits outweigh any momentary pain etc.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/circumcision/PR00040
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جوري
05-20-2009, 04:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
ok crayon, then perhaps problem is mine about percieving flippant remarks. I think that if my islam is not right there is things I need to improve before doing this to my childrfen. I am ready to change things as Allah demands but I am not questioning that cicumsission is ordained, just struggling with it as a concept. I do not understand why Allah would create us with skin and how its right to "mutilate" his perfect creation by removing it. I just want the answers is all, cannot bare the thought of harming my kids but am seeking guidance because I want to do right for Allah, this is my area where sacrifice is hard, we all have them, I would genuinley offer my right hand instead if it would be accepted. I am trying and it is an emotive subject for me, pls understand, also I was not brought up in Islam, I recognised it as truth, I think this is part of why I struggle here, I am all for children and really seek guidance on the original points

:sl:

the topic has been discussed on the forum several times, perhaps that is the reason you are receiving short replies..

I need to just ask you...
Do you groom your nails and cut your hair, clean out your ear wax, wipe after using the bathroom, shower daily, use deodorants etc? Our natural state would be in animal like if we didn't take care of the above, but we are refined human beings, thus we groom, part of the grooming for males in accordance with Abrahamic faith is circumcision.
If you had appendicitis would you want excised?

Allah swt gives us many gifts and entrusts that we take care of them and/or maintain them.. Circumcision does confer some health benefits, and still people live perfectly normal lives with their foreskin -- so the final decision is yours..

:w:
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Tony
05-20-2009, 04:22 PM
Gossamer skye, yes I understand nails etc, and I think maybe the health benefits are good, and I think I am coming round to the idea, just meeded sounding board, however, the things listed are like a choice thing there is no choice for my lads when it comes to circumsission. Would like to think it would be done for Allahs sake but not sure that its only going to be for health reasons. May Allah forgive my doubts
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ragdollcat1982
05-20-2009, 05:11 PM
I have a 6 year old son and I insisted that we have him circed at birth and my husband had no objections. He got circed when he was 21 when he married a Jewish woman and converted to her faith. It is better to do it around birth or wait until the 8th day, apparently on the 8th day the babys blood can clot easier and healing time is short. My stepson is not circed as my husbands 2nd wife read somewhere that the child would remember the pain and suffer mental trauman for life. When we had my son done the doctor used a local anastetic , so my son felt no pain . I would not have this done on even a baby without pain meds. It took my son only a week to heal, an older child and adult can take a while as there are more blood vessels involved than with a baby.
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Tony
05-20-2009, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Carolinew6462
Speaking from a medical perspective, male circumcision really doesn't have any medical benefits. Every benefit ever claimed has since been disproven. 80% of the world's men are not circumcised and have no problems.

I can't speak as a Muslim, but I do know that many Muslims do not circumcise and are just as committed to their faith. This is an article by a Muslim scholar who opposes circumcision


I can't argue with your religion, but I can tell you facts- it's not a health issue, and not all Muslims do it. Plus, wouldn't it be more meaningful if a man decided it for himself as a fully-understanding adult?

find it bizarre that the guy in this link is saying that believing hadiths amount to blasphemy, cant argue with his statement that circ could be tantamount to mutilation but Qur'an only islam is a strange concept
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جوري
05-20-2009, 06:01 PM
The article you post is from 2008 published in 2009, here is what the National institute of health and the New England Journal Of Medicine have to say about it as of 2009

more on the topic can be seen from the National institute of health or the New England Journal of Medicine Reference: AAR Tobian et al. Male circumcision for the prevention of HSV-2 and HPV infections and syphilis. New England Journal of Medicine. DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa0802556 (2009).

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-mcr032409.php


Public release date: 25-Mar-2009
[ Print Article | E-mail Article | Close Window ]

Contact: Kathy Stover
kstover@niaid.nih.gov
301-402-1663
NIH/National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases
Male circumcision reduces risk of genital herpes and HPV infection, but not syphilis

Heterosexual men who undergo medical circumcision can significantly reduce their risk of acquiring two common sexually transmitted infections--herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2), the cause of genital herpes, and human papillomavirus (HPV), which can cause cancer and genital warts, according to a report in the March 26 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM). In the study, circumcision had no effect on their risk of becoming infected with the bacterium that causes syphilis, however.
The findings build upon earlier clinical research funded by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease (NIAID), part of the NIH, which found that circumcision decreases a man's risk of acquiring HIV infection through heterosexual intercourse by more than 50 percent (http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/newsr...6/AMC12_06.htm).
"Medically supervised adult male circumcision is a scientifically proven method for reducing a man's risk of acquiring HIV infection through heterosexual intercourse," says NIAID Director Anthony S. Fauci, M.D. "This new research provides compelling evidence that circumcision can provide some protection against genital herpes and human papillomavirus infections as well."
The study was conducted by scientists at the Rakai Health Sciences Program in Uganda in collaboration with researchers at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, Makerere University in Kampala, Uganda, and NIAID's Division of Intramural Research. The collaborators examined samples from two parallel clinical trials in Rakai that successfully proved male circumcision as an HIV prevention method and also assessed the surgical procedure's ability to prevent other sexually transmitted infections, including syphilis and HSV-2. These infections cause genital ulcers and are associated with an increased risk of HIV acquisition. The research team also assessed circumcision's effect on HPV infections, which can cause anal, cervical and penile cancers and genital warts.
The two trials, one funded by NIAID and the other by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, enrolled 3,393 uncircumcised men between the ages of 15 and 49 who initially tested negative for both HIV and HSV-2. The men were assigned at random to one of two study groups: 1,684 received immediate circumcision performed by trained medical professionals in an outpatient setting (intervention group); and 1,709 received medical circumcision after a delay of 24 months (control group). The researchers evaluated the volunteers at six, 12 and 24 months for HSV-2 and syphilis infection. Additionally, a subgroup of 697 volunteers (352 participants in the intervention group; 345 in the control group) was evaluated for HPV infection at enrollment and at 24 months.
In analyzing the effect of circumcision on HSV-2 acquisition across both studies, the researchers found that the cumulative probability of HSV-2 infection was significantly lower among those volunteers who received immediate circumcision (7.8 percent) than among those in the control group who were circumcised at 24 months (10.3 percent). Overall, the researchers found that medically supervised circumcision reduced the men's risk of HSV-2 infection by 28 percent.
The combined results from both trials also demonstrated a 35 percent reduction in HPV prevalence among men in the intervention group. In evaluating a subgroup of volunteers at 24 months, high-risk HPV strains associated with certain cancers were detected in 42 of 233 men in the intervention group and in 80 of 287 men in the control group.
Circumcision did not, however, affect the incidence of syphilis. At 24 months, syphilis was detected in 50 men in the intervention group and 45 members of the control group.
"The cumulative scientific evidence supporting the public health value of medically supervised male circumcision is now overwhelming," says Thomas C. Quinn, M.D., study co-investigator, chief of the International HIV/STD Section in NIAID's Laboratory of Immunoregulation and co-author of the study. "This new research confirms the substantial health benefits of male circumcision, including reduced acquisition of HIV, genital herpes, HPV and genital ulcer disease."
&nbspr. David Serwadda, co-principal investigator and dean of Makerere University's School of Public Health, adds that "these findings have significant public health implications for the control of HIV, genital herpes and HPV in areas of high prevalence, such as Africa, and further suggest that efforts to scale-up male circumcision could have tremendous benefit."
"The next focus of our research will be to analyze additional data collected in the Rakai trials to assess the degree to which male circumcision may reduce transmission of HPV to female sexual partners," says Johns Hopkins professor Ronald H. Gray, M.D., co-principal investigator. "This would be of substantial significance because HPV causes cervical cancer."
The biological reasons why circumcision may reduce the risk of HSV-2 and HPV infection, but not syphilis, are not entirely known. HSV-2 and HPV multiply in epithelial cells found in the surface skin of the penis, and the foreskin may facilitate virus entry into those cells. Once circumcision has been performed, the risk of epithelial infection may be reduced, the authors note. Additionally, the analysis used to determine the effects of circumcision on syphilis had limited statistical power, and therefore, it is difficult to draw a firm conclusion as to whether or not circumcision may reduce syphilis incidence, the researchers add.
&nbspuring each clinic visit, volunteers were given physical examinations, counseled on safe sex practices and offered condoms, voluntary HIV counseling and testing. Study staff also interviewed each volunteer to record sociodemographic characteristics and rates of specific sexual risk behaviors. Volunteers who acquired HIV infection during the two clinical trials were referred to Rakai Health Science Program clinics for HIV care funded by the U.S. President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. Volunteers who acquired genital ulcers or syphilis were also provided with appropriate medical care and treatment.
As with most strategies to prevent sexually transmitted infections, including HIV, adult male circumcision is not completely effective. Therefore, the authors note, safe sex practices, including consistent condom use, are still necessary to provide the best protection against such infections.
###

NIAID conducts and supports research--at NIH, throughout the United States, and worldwide--to study the causes of infectious and immune-mediated diseases, and to develop better means of preventing, diagnosing and treating these illnesses. News releases, fact sheets and other NIAID-related materials are available on the NIAID Web site at http://www.niaid.nih.gov.
The National Institutes of Health (NIH)--The Nation's Medical Research Agency--includes 27 Institutes and Centers and is a component of the U. S. Department of Health and Human Services. It is the primary federal agency for conducting and supporting basic, clinical and translational medical research, and it investigates the causes, treatments and cures for both common and rare diseases. For more information about NIH and its programs, visit http://www.nih.gov.
Reference: AAR Tobian et al. Male circumcision for the prevention of HSV-2 and HPV infections and syphilis. New England Journal of Medicine. DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa0802556 (2009).
News releases, fact sheets and other NIAID-related materials are available on the NIAID Web site at <http://www.niaid.nih.gov>.


[ Print Article | E-mail Article | Close Window ]


also on other threads I have discussed Smegma/phimosis/ Urinary tract infections and other benefits of circumcision.. There is actually no consensus in the medical community per regard to male circumcision.. remains widely a matter of preference, recommended in some cases, and spoken against in others such as (bleeding diathesis, and certain conditions where the urethra is displaced and the foreskin is used for surgical correction!
all the best
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جوري
05-20-2009, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
Gossamer skye, yes I understand nails etc, and I think maybe the health benefits are good, and I think I am coming round to the idea, just meeded sounding board, however, the things listed are like a choice thing there is no choice for my lads when it comes to circumsission. Would like to think it would be done for Allahs sake but not sure that its only going to be for health reasons. May Allah forgive my doubts

:sl: akhi, I have posted a few articles from reputable Medical journals for you that are current of 2009 not from a David wilton whomever he is, also if you browse the forum, you'd see I have discussed the topic in some detail. I don't believe that you'd be punished for not circumcising your kids, it is a recommendation not an injunction..

I'd also be weary of whom you take your information from. If I were you I'd ask a scholar and a physician...alot of the websites on the web alleging to be Islamic are nothing but tampered with by folks with an agenda!
Anyone can make a percentage about the 5685986% of men who aren't circumcised or how doctors don't recommend it which isn't the case at all, unless s/he went surveying and inspecting the 3 billion men in existence.. in fact doctors tend to leave that decision with the family as it is both Jews and Muslims observe it for religious reasons as well many others for a host of reasons (it isn't a banned procedure, where you have to go on some back ally way) here in the U.S you are asked whether or not you want your children circumcised upon birth.. you can also undergo the procedure at any time and many times for actual medical reasons (which I have listed on other threads)

You must understand in the end the decision is YOURS and no one else's.. you have all the facts to consider.. the procedure itself on children doesn't take more than 7 minutes tops.. If I were you I'd call the pediatrician see his recommendation, most likely if s/he is uptodate will present you with the latest facts and in the end leave the decision making to you..

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
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doorster
05-20-2009, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TKTony
Thanks for responses, not sure why people being so short tho, these are my children not some objects that I can give up or do without, its easy to qyestion my belief in the Qur'an or Muhammads (pbuh) teachings, I am genuinely stuck if it was as easy as saying it is my duty then I would not have neede to post at all. Please I need help not just flippant remarks that require little or no thought. It maybe easy to throw up details of Abrahams sacrifices, I am not Abraham and to some extent this is my point. I am prepared to take the suffering and punishment if nescessarry, I just want someone to explain the points I raised. If you have no children please do not bother to post a reply
Closed: Male circumcision in Islam (

1 2 3)
:w:
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doorster
05-20-2009, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Carolinew6462
Speaking from a medical perspective, male circumcision really doesn't have any medical benefits. Every benefit ever claimed has since been disproven. 80% of the world's men are not circumcised and have no problems.

I can't speak as a Muslim, but I do know that many Muslims do not circumcise and are just as committed to their faith. This is an article by a Muslim scholar who opposes circumcision


I can't argue with your religion, but I can tell you facts- it's not a health issue, and not all Muslims do it. Plus, wouldn't it be more meaningful if a man decided it for himself as a fully-understanding adult?
is this thread about Sunni perspective or something else?
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Tony
05-20-2009, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
is this thread abou Sunni perspective or something else?
As far as starting thread, I wanted Sunni advice. Still a bit undecided but feel clearer on subject at least
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HopeFul
05-20-2009, 07:06 PM
Well I am a sunni and I believe that it is necessary...
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جوري
05-20-2009, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
is this thread about Sunni perspective or something else?
probably one of those Quran only sects since they are trying to separate themselves from the sunna and we all know why!..

is/he isn't a Muslim then s/he shouldn't be searching for orphan websites to support his/her view.. and the same goes for medicine...

Medicine has always been based above all on patient autonomy first and foremost so even with John dick or harry's article even if opposing the common view, really don't mean much..

I often see in the wee hours these programs that malign physicians especially in regard to home birthing and how medicine has a monopoly on it.. well fact of the matter is women for centuries died in childbirth and we have modern medicine not midwifery to thank for saving millions of them from a certain fate (yes where there are humans there will be human error) but we should weigh the pros and cons .. what will a midwife do for a woman with succenturiate lobe of placenta or a woman with placental abruption or an android pelvis that disables the baby's head from passing through or a placenta increta or breech 10 pds baby? folks should be informed of their choices and then make up their mind not have someone force feed it to them using third party reviews just merely to be objectionable to some religious practices!

:w:
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glo
05-20-2009, 08:28 PM
I always understood that circumcision (for health reasons) was more widely performed in the US than in the UK.
Is that correct?
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جوري
05-20-2009, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Carolinew6462
Doesn't "patient autonomy" mean that it's up to the individual himself to decide what happens (or doesn't happen) to his body?

The "common view" among the medical circles, is that while circumcision may have a few slight benefits, there is not enough evidence that it should be routinely performed. No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant (or child) circumcision.
indeed it is up to the individual where have I stated otherwise?
and it is indeed routinely performed on Muslim and Jewish infant males and others who choose, provided they have none of the afore mentioned medical conditions and/or a bleeding diathesis.. I have seen and partook during my rotations in Ob/GYN/peds up to 7 circumcisions per day.
it is something the parents request the same way many request kosher foods on the menu and the hospital would have to comply with their wishes.. Do you have a problem with that?

all the best
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doorster
05-20-2009, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
i always understood that circumcision (for health reasons) was more widely performed in the us than in the uk.
Is that correct?
....
nobody really knows but organisations campaigning against it estimate that worldwide about one in four males are circumcised. National rates vary widely from about 80% of males in the usa to 2% in sweden, where non-medical circumcision is now illegal in children. In the uk, the number of circumcisions for medical reasons has fallen from 35% of english boys in the 1930s to 6.5% in the 1980s and today some 12,200 such circumcisions are performed annually.
uk:6.5%
usa: 80%

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doorster
05-20-2009, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Carolinew6462
This is true. Non-religious circumcision is relatively rare in the UK.

I live in the US, so I feel qualified to speak on American circumcision. We currently circumcise about 56% of our boys, and the rates are slowly dropping. The highest rate was about 90% in the 1970's. Then the medical community said there was no reason to, and the rates dropped. Most people here who still do it don't do it for medical or religious reasons. They do it because they want the son to "look like daddy". Here is a very prestigious American doctor talking about circumcision

Dr. Dean Edell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuu07U2FokQ
I think that the OP confirmed to me that he wanted a Sunni opinion nothing more, thanx muchly in advance of leaving it alone now!
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aamirsaab
05-20-2009, 09:33 PM
:sl:
Sorry to be a kill joy but the actual problem was solved within the first 6 posts (on page 1!)

You know what time it is?

Thread locked.
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جوري
05-20-2009, 10:18 PM
I just got home didn't have a time to reply back to the lady, if you'd kindly merge the threads and close them after I have clarified a point.

Children are a property of their parents until they become of age, they are what their parents chose for them so long as it does 'No Harm' until they are 18 yrs of age.. (these are the laws here in the United States) if you'd like to confirm you may purchase 'Medical Ethics' ISBN: 1419542095 & read page 5
in some circumstances minors can be emancipated under very stringent guide lines such as pregnancy, military duty, self-support and living independently.. but until such a time what their parents wish for their children from a medical stand point is up to the parents!
Thus if a parent wishes to give their child chemotherapy (even if the child objects, hates treatments, doesn't see improvement) or wish to circumcise their foreskin, then they are entitled to do so.. and it is actually better done as a child, infants have no recollection of the event, and though simple cold vaseline was used to quell, now topical anesthetics can be applied instead with far less complications than if done as an adult!

Again, you don't get to define medical ethics, or religious tents for people.. though we thank much for sharing your two cents...

all the best
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