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Clover
05-25-2009, 04:04 AM
My question to you: Should Tibet be allowed independance from China?

I thought of this subject, after a message from the Dalai Llama, which can be found here: http://www.dalailama.com/news.372.htm

I believe Tibet should be allowed independance, if the majority of the people (probably 3/4) vote for it, but I doubt this will happen.
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Trumble
05-25-2009, 11:53 AM
The only people with the power to 'allow' it are the Chinese, and they never will. Or at least by the time they might, they will have imported so many Han Chinese into Tibet you would never get the required majority in a plebiscite anyway. The Dalai Lama realizes this, and hence seeks only guaranteed and meaningful Tibetan autonomy within China. The Chinese see even that as far too risky, hence they constantly distort the position of what they call the 'Dalai clique'. The rest of the world, needing to do business with China, will not contemplate the diplomatic and economic pressure required to shift the Chinese position and has abandoned Tibet.

We shouldn't forget, particularly here, that the Uigur people of Xianjiang - muslims - are in exactly the same position as the Tibetans and if anything are treated even more ruthlessly. They just get less publicity, and have no 'Dalai Lama' figure to present their cause to the world.
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Clover
05-25-2009, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
The only people with the power to 'allow' it are the Chinese, and they never will. Or at least by the time they might, they will have imported so many Han Chinese into Tibet you would never get the required majority in a plebiscite anyway. The Dalai Lama realizes this, and hence seeks only guaranteed and meaningful Tibetan autonomy within China. The Chinese see even that as far too risky, hence they constantly distort the position of what they call the 'Dalai clique'. The rest of the world, needing to do business with China, will not contemplate the diplomatic and economic pressure required to shift the Chinese position and has abandoned Tibet.

We shouldn't forget, particularly here, that the Uigur people of Xianjiang - muslims - are in exactly the same position as the Tibetans and if anything are treated even more ruthlessly. They just get less publicity, and have no 'Dalai Lama' figure to present their cause to the world.
That does not make the Tibetan position any less important, I am sorry for the Muslims there, but it is not their fault or the Buddhists fault, for them not having a popular spiritual figure such as the Dalai Llama.
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Trumble
05-25-2009, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
That does not make the Tibetan position any less important, I am sorry for the Muslims there, but it is not their fault or the Buddhists fault, for them not having a popular spiritual figure such as the Dalai Llama.
I didn't say it was.
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جوري
05-25-2009, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
That does not make the Tibetan position any less important, I am sorry for the Muslims there, but it is not their fault or the Buddhists fault, for them not having a popular spiritual figure such as the Dalai Llama.

You don't need a popular spiritual figure to get things done, it certainly hasn't solved problem for them, even having the dalai with Richard Gere and a highly acclaimed Brad pit movie to highlight the problem.. however, what Gere managed was getting banned from the very peculiar self-congratulatory banquet....

The Muslims will manage their problem in due time (insha'Allah) I don't foresee a free tibet any time soon though I certainly could be mistaken but China has been very sneaky and steady, two very admirable traits when you lack a moral compass!

all the best
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Clover
05-25-2009, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You don't need a popular spiritual figure to get things done, it certainly hasn't solved problem for them, even having the dalai with Richard Gere and a highly acclaimed Brad pit movie to highlight the problem.. however, what Gere managed was getting banned from the very peculiar self-congratulatory banquet....

The Muslims will manage their problem in due time (insha'Allah) I don't foresee a free tibet any time soon though I certainly could be mistaken but China has been very sneaky and steady, two very admirable traits when you lack a moral compass!

all the best
No, but it sure helps gain publicity. I only know Richard Gere from the movie Pretty Woman lol.

I wish them luck, and I will research the topic, to see if their is anything I can do, maybe spread awareness of their struggle.

A free Tibet could come sooner then expected, or never, we are not known to the unknown, we can only hope.

What do you mean lack a moral compass? Do you mean, they have no central morals?
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Joe98
05-25-2009, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
What do you mean lack a moral compass?
Do you mean, they have no central morals?

She means to have a moral compass you must believe in god.

Without god you will be evil and not worry about it.

-
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Woodrow
05-25-2009, 10:23 PM
The world abandoned Tibet many years ago. Sadly it is now a dead nation and remains a nation in name only. It is more of a Chinese province, than a sovereign nation. We waved goodbye to Tibet in the 1940s.
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Joe98
05-25-2009, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The world abandoned Tibet many years ago.


Many years ago the USA could have intervened in Tibet as it has done in other places and ................

......set up a democratic free country with free trade and everybody would be happy.
-
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جوري
05-25-2009, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
She means to have a moral compass you must believe in god.

Without god you will be evil and not worry about it.

-
That is not what I meant at all, so don't feel so free to speak on my behalf.. also, given that I have repeated on multiple posts that goodness is innate, and instinctive, a naturally bestowed gift-- I rather you simply concentrate on making sense of your other ill-thought comments and insights.. like how well democracy has worked for Russia to the world's eye witness before taking that leap and having a psychic moment into the thoughts of members here!
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Joe98
05-25-2009, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

....given that I have repeated on multiple posts that goodness is innate, and instinctive, a naturally bestowed gift--

:peace:

Sorry, I must have confused you with somebody else around here.

Thank you for agreeing we don't need religion to have a moral compass!


:peace:

-
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Clover
05-25-2009, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
That is not what I meant at all, so don't feel so free to speak on my behalf.. also, given that I have repeated on multiple posts that goodness is innate, and instinctive, a naturally bestowed gift-- I rather you simply concentrate on making sense of your other ill-thought comments and insights.. like how well democracy has worked for Russia to the world's eye witness before taking that leap and having a psychic moment into the thoughts of members here!
I agree mostly with this logic, that morals are a natural thing, not something we JUST learn from religion/people. If that is what you meant.

Originally Posted by Joe98


Many years ago the USA could have intervened in Tibet as it has done in other places and ................

......set up a democratic free country with free trade and everybody would be happy.
-
I doubt everyone would be happy. China wouldn't be, and probably many anti-americans would call it another way the American "Empire" is spreading.

Originally Posted by Joe98
She means to have a moral compass you must believe in god.

Without god you will be evil and not worry about it.

-
Well, since she later wrote that is not what she meant, this post has no meaning, but if this is what you believe, then I hope you do not see me as Evil just because I do not agree with you.
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ardianto
05-26-2009, 04:38 AM
Originally Posted by Clover
My question to you: Should Tibet be allowed independance from China?

I thought of this subject, after a message from the Dalai Llama, which can be found here: http://www.dalailama.com/news.372.htm

I believe Tibet should be allowed independance, if the majority of the people (probably 3/4) vote for it, but I doubt this will happen.
Do you mean Tibetan must makes a referendum ?
I'm sure majority of Tibetan people will chose for freedom, that's why Chinese govt will not let that referendum happen. They have learned from referendum for East Timor (now Timor Leste).
I think Tibetan must wait political reformation in China and must wait Chinese people realize, they must give a freedom for Tibet.
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Clover
05-26-2009, 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Do you mean Tibetan must makes a referendum ?
I'm sure majority of Tibetan people will chose for freedom, that's why Chinese govt will not let that referendum happen. They have learned from referendum for East Timor (now Timor Leste).
I think Tibetan must wait political reformation in China and must wait Chinese people realize, they must give a freedom for Tibet.
The problem is, that is clearly against humanity, I would advise, Americans to protest it heavily (protest within China, protest China at Olympics, and on) about it, but in the end, it takes a Global effort, America is not the sole person they trade with, yes it is a major, but in the end, it takes many countries to change one's mind.
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Trumble
05-26-2009, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Many years ago the USA could have intervened in Tibet as it has done in other places and ................

......set up a democratic free country with free trade and everybody would be happy
I take it that is sarcasm? Just in case it isn't, the feeling associated with Tibet is that of preserving a very special and unique way of life. Americanization would have destroyed that just as surely as the Chinese; more so, if anything.
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nocturnal
05-26-2009, 12:35 PM
The problem is the immense power China wields, its economic, political and military clout. In such turbulent global conditions when Chinese engagement is acutely needed, no one is going to want to antagonise the Chinese government over this issuse. And thats exactly where you see the glaring hypocrisy of the west on their supposedly principled human rights stand.
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north_malaysian
05-26-2009, 12:42 PM
China would never give an inch of their "land".. that's for sure... that's why many nations are so scared to even recognise Taiwan...
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