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Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-25-2009, 03:19 PM
:sl:

Dunno if this has been posted before, but pretty interesting article.

Children are born believers in God, academic claims

Children are "born believers" in God and do not simply acquire religious beliefs through indoctrination, according to an academic.

By Martin Beckford, Religious Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 11:36PM GMT 24 Nov 2008

Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.

He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.

"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."

In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

In one study, six and seven-year-olds who were asked why the first bird existed replied "to make nice music" and "because it makes the world look nice".

Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap.

Dr Barrett said there is evidence that even by the age of four, children understand that although some objects are made by humans, the natural world is different.

He added that this means children are more likely to believe in creationism rather than evolution, despite what they may be told by parents or teachers.

Dr Barrett claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.

"Children's normally and naturally developing minds make them prone to believe in divine creation and intelligent design. In contrast, evolution is unnatural for human minds; relatively difficult to believe."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ic-claims.html
---------------

We knew that..1400 years ago :D
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Mysterious Uk
05-25-2009, 03:29 PM
Cool, how interesting.. I'm trying to think back to my earliest memories, and from as long as i can remember i think i always knew there was a God. I mean stuff like rain, i knew it was something that occured through his will..

N e hu, must be diffficult conducting the method for lil kiddies like..
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Zico
05-25-2009, 03:34 PM
Mashallah! Nice find bro. I bet atheists will eat that Doctor alive after reading this! :p
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piXie
05-25-2009, 03:35 PM
:sl:

Reminded me of this video by Sheikh Riyadh

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Muhaba
05-25-2009, 04:06 PM
That's an awesome study. It's proves Allah's statement in the Quraan, that he asked all mankind "Am I not your Lord?" and they answered , "why not." This shows that this knowledge is built into our minds.
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جوري
05-25-2009, 08:11 PM
you don't need an academic to tell you that, all you need are young kids in the house..
I started a thread recently here asking on how to introduce religion to children, on the account my niece and before here my other nieces and nephews would incessantly ask the 'questions of the ages' and of course their favorite word is 'why', I wanted to introduce the concept in an appropriate fashion for a young inquisitive mind but not make it too abstract or philosophical, got some good feedback wal7mdlilah..

the whole atheistic module of children not knowing or needing God until someone introduces or indoctrinates them is faulty as evidenced solely from the mouths of babes, as well their unceasing need to spend most of their free times on religion forums jabbering on their various nonsense!

:w:
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Whatsthepoint
05-25-2009, 10:52 PM
this is not really what the article says, what it says is that children look for purpose in everything and can't grasp things like coincidence and may think a person is behind it.

Dr Barrett claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.
I would like to hear to what extent religious teachings were withdrawn from them and what kind of god did they come up with.
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جوري
05-25-2009, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
this is not really what the article says, what it says is that children look for purpose in everything and can't grasp things like coincidence and may think a person is behind it.


I would like to hear to what extent religious teachings were withdrawn from them and what kind of god did they come up with.
He doesn't need to spell it out for you.. finding a purpose for life is the very basis of belief in God and that is actually in concert with fitrah.. fitrah doesn't cover rituals, or a specific type religion, merely the instinct of belief in God, hence the child's parents can fashion that eventually into the god or gods of their choosing!

but they all start from the same baseline!

peace
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Whatsthepoint
05-25-2009, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
He doesn't need to spell it out for you.. finding a purpose for life is the very basis of belief in God and that is actually in concert with fitrah.. fitrah doesn't cover rituals, or a specific type religion, merely the instinct of belief in God, hence the child's parents can fashion that eventually into the god or gods of their choosing!

but they all start from the same baseline!

peace
So Islam doesn't really say children believe in the oneness of god, omnipotence etc, but rather have an instinct for a higher purpose?
What about the shahaddah whisperred to every child at birth?
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جوري
05-25-2009, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
So Islam doesn't really say children believe in the oneness of god, omnipotence etc, but rather have an instinct for a higher purpose?
What about the shahaddah whisperred to every child at birth?

we have discussed this before no? Children are born with the same thing all prophets who found Allah swt are born with..

I have no idea about the shahada whispered in children's ears? what does that mean?
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Whatsthepoint
05-25-2009, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
we have discussed this before no? Children are born with the same thing all prophets who found Allah swt are born with..

I have no idea about the shahada whispered in children's ears? what does that mean?
I don't remember.
I may have mixed it up-
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Chuck
05-26-2009, 12:30 AM
stupid jibber jabber starting again. Simply just ask what fitra means in Islam before jumping to conclusions.

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جوري
05-26-2009, 12:32 AM
rofl.. I always wonder where you get those really neat pictures?..

I managed one cool pic today of a 'reality slap' :haha:

:w:
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Zico
05-26-2009, 08:48 AM
Hadith - Bukhari 2.440, Narrated Ibn Shihab

Abu Huraira, narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said, "Every child is born with a true faith (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) but his parents convert him to Judaism or to Christianity or to Magainism, as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?" Then Abu Huraira recited the holy verse: "So set you (O Muhammad SAW) your face towards the religion of pure Islâmic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allâh Alone) Allâh's Fitrah (i.e. Allâh's Islâmic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq*illâh (i.e. the Religion of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not. [Tafsir At*Tabarî, Vol 21, Page 41] " (30.30).


Source
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Ummu Sufyaan
06-07-2009, 05:10 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd al-Rahman
:sl:

Children are born believers in God, academic claims
[...]
that's quite interesting...i wonder if the same would apply to animals
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جوري
06-08-2009, 04:40 AM
bumpty bump
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AabiruSabeel
06-08-2009, 05:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
:sl:


that's quite interesting...i wonder if the same would apply to animals
Yes, Allah says:
أَفَغَيْرَ دِينِ اللَّهِ يَبْغُونَ وَلَهُ أَسْلَمَ مَن فِى السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا وَإِلَيْهِ يُرْجَعُونَ
Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah.-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back. [Aal-Imran: 83]
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Clover
06-08-2009, 05:18 AM
Eh, I don't think thats really true, I mean, I was raised to believen god, I didn't wake up and believen a higher being, but I doubt what I got to say on the subject really matters since I am not a scientist or academic...yet.
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جوري
06-08-2009, 05:53 AM
we are not talking about a specific religion or being raised on, we are speaking of the natural curiosity that children feel about the origin of life, how they came to be, and what it all means and their position in the scheme of things and that is certainly very observable in children..

Do you have small ones with a million question running around?
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Clover
06-08-2009, 05:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
we are not talking about a specific religion or being raised on, we are speaking of the natural curiosity that children feel about the origin of life, how they came to be, and what it all means and their position in the scheme of things and that is certainly very observable in children..

Do you have small ones with a million question running around?
um, I am 16, thats a no.

Maybe, but I do not see how that leads to a god.
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جوري
06-08-2009, 06:03 AM
It means, it is instinctive to believe in a higher power, however the actual tenets of religion can only be established through a parental or guardian unit...

many 16 and even 13 year olds with children, but you should stay in school and finish what you need to have a family by legal respectable means...

all the best
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Clover
06-08-2009, 06:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
It means, it is instinctive to believe in a higher power, however the actual tenets of religion can only be established through a parental or guardian unit...

many 16 and even 13 year olds with children, but you should stay in school and finish what you need to have a family by legal respectable means...

all the best
Yes, I know. A girl in my grade has 3 kids, 2 and 1 on the way, and she is proud that she has that many, I can understand being proud to have a child, but getting pregnant 3 times before your out of highschool isn't exactly planned.

I do not plan on having kids till I am at least 20+
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جوري
06-08-2009, 07:00 AM
You don't have to tell me, I went to catholic school, and half the girls were out pregnant, although I generally was the last to hear about it.. strangely I thought they were catching a strange bug that had them bed ridden for weeks after it caused them undue corpulency :haha:

It was indeed both contagious and a rampant epidemic...
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Trumble
06-08-2009, 07:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zico
Mashallah! Nice find bro. I bet atheists will eat that Doctor alive after reading this! :p
Why? Am I the only one who isn't the least surprised by this?

Children are rational creatures, and of course they will seek explanations of what they experience in order to make sense of the world. It seems fairly obvious that they will hit on what is perhaps the simplest solution first, a puerile (in the literal sense of the word) version of the 'watchmaker' argument. That incorporates God, gods (there's nothing about the 'oneness' of God there), nature spirits, jolly green giants or whatever as possible creative and causative agents.

What is the alternative.. that kids sit down, have a little think about things and come up with Newton's laws and the theory of evolution by natural selection?!
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Clover
06-08-2009, 07:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You don't have to tell me, I went to catholic school, and half the girls were out pregnant, although I generally was the last to hear about it.. strangely I thought they were catching a strange bug that had them bed ridden for weeks after it caused them undue corpulency :haha:

It was indeed both contagious and a rampant epidemic...
I go to a public school. We are the bad kids of the American society haha
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جوري
06-08-2009, 06:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Why? Am I the only one who isn't the least surprised by this?

Children are rational creatures, and of course they will seek explanations of what they experience in order to make sense of the world. It seems fairly obvious that they will hit on what is perhaps the simplest solution first, a puerile (in the literal sense of the word) version of the 'watchmaker' argument. That incorporates God, gods (there's nothing about the 'oneness' of God there), nature spirits, jolly green giants or whatever as possible creative and causative agents.

What is the alternative.. that kids sit down, have a little think about things and come up with Newton's laws and the theory of evolution by natural selection?!

Greetings,,

Children may indeed stumble upon basic laws of physics, they might not loan them a name or a formula.. they might indeed figure the shortest distance between two places is a straight, or the two dimensional motion of rigid bodies when playing with a boom rang or that acceleration requires force when they use their water gun and realize it almost out of water...

All that which makes sense to us as human beings indeed goes with our nature even if we don't attach mathematics or scientific jargon with it...
It isn't puerile, it is instinctive, and just like the sense of God is refined and deepened after theological introduction, so are the laws of physics, math and biology.. things that don't make sense to folks are sometimes indeed so because there is very little logic attached to them and require that you instill a non-instinctive belief all the same...
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Snowflake
06-08-2009, 11:19 PM
lol mashaAllah, great article!
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Azy
06-11-2009, 10:22 AM
"Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose."

Folk are religious because they make unfounded assumptions about nature... who would have guessed?

On a more serious note, what sort of answer are researchers expecting when they ask a 6 year old a question like "why did the first birds exist?"?

Perhaps: "Actually Dr Barrett I don't presume to know what the answer is or even if it a valid line of enquiry. These leading questions probably reveal more about your Christian beliefs than my own worldview. Can I haz sweetie now pleeeez?"
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جوري
06-11-2009, 02:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
"Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose."

Folk are religious because they make unfounded assumptions about nature... who would have guessed?
Exactly what is unfounded in observing the natural world and asking questions?
On a more serious note, what sort of answer are researchers expecting when they ask a 6 year old a question like "why did the first birds exist?"?
They are expecting the atheist response, that children are atheists until their care takers indoctrinate them of course, at least that is what many of you allege!
Perhaps: "Actually Dr Barrett I don't presume to know what the answer is or even if it a valid line of enquiry. These leading questions probably reveal more about your Christian beliefs than my own worldview. Can I haz sweetie now pleeeez?"
I take it, you have inside details to what went on in the research?

all the best
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The_Prince
06-11-2009, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
this is not really what the article says, what it says is that children look for purpose in everything and can't grasp things like coincidence and may think a person is behind it.
what?! are you sure your reading the same article, let me quote him for you:

"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme."

he doesnt say they MAY THINK there is something behind it, and he doesnt say they CANT GRASP COINCIDENCES, rather he clearly says they do see an inteligent being behind the purpose, not that they think there is one or bla bla.

and did you forget this one:

"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."

lol that doesnt sound like ANYTHING of what you said, your taking this guys statement and twisting them beyond bad, face the facts of what he said and just deal with it, no need to blatantly distort it to say something completely different.
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- Qatada -
06-29-2009, 08:17 PM
Asalam alaikum warahmatulah Wabarakatuh


Believing in God is the nature [fitrah] of the human being.



The Prophet (peace be upon him) also informs us: "Every child is born upon the natural way. It is then his parents who turn him into a Jew, a Christian, or a Zoroastrian." [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (1296)]



Everything has a logical purpose
Everything in this universe follows certain sets of rules, which we can comprehend and understand. If these laws run according to logical rules, then it is most likely that something has been co-ordinated this set way in order for these laws to have been established in the first place. If these set laws are not established in the beginning, then how can co-ordination form from chaos? This is extremely unlikely. Logically speaking, order is put into motion by one who controls and directs. This is how the human nature understands the universe we live in. Someone might argue that it is due to our perception - that we logically try to percieve things in order, so they are in order only due to our minds placing them within that sequencing - however, it is because they are within this order that we are able to percieve the control that we see.

If one was to argue against this - then they are saying that the logical came out of the illogical, something which the human mind cannot really comprehend, prove, or even agree to naturally. Anyone can say we evolved to only accept control as a perception, but the reality is still otherwise - in the universe we live - where the Planet Earth was in the exact location to allow life to survive and remain protected within it for millions of years. People cannot explain why the planet earth came in this location to allow life to remain within it, however due to the extremely low probability of the earth being in the exact place to achieve this purpose without control - the human nature is more likely to agree that there was some form of intervention, to allow it to to be in the exact location to support life, and to provide for the different species for a long time period. That is what the human nature agrees to, to understand that every living and non living thing has achieved something for a purpose. Survival in of itself is not a purpose, although it may be a means for achieving something.



The probabilities of 'Coincidences' is - in most cases - lower than Impossibility


A good example of this is given when certain chemical reactions take place, we know that they can take place to produce certain products. However, some form of control is required to react these substances together to produce the outcome. Someone may argue that it is possible for certain events to occur through natural means, and that is true - however - these are extremely limited. So the person may reply that over millions of years, natural occurences, and trial and error - useful products are produced. However, the weakness in these arguments is that the probability of such events - especially of trial and error - occuring are extremely low, and in many cases - statistically impossible (a probability smaller than 1 in 10 (to the power) 50 [50 zeros after it] is statistically considered to have a "zero" probability of occurring, and most of these cases require a higher probability than this number.) This then, logically speaking, makes certain events impossible, except through control and some form of intervention from someone with Knowledge, and Ability to do so.





2 Equally Competitive but Conflicting theories are Present - the Simplest is most likely true



According to the Ockham's Razor Principle, if there are two conflicting theories of equal value, then the simplest of the 2 theories is most likely to be true. In this case - the universe - being controlled to produce and sustain life is the simpler of the 2 theories, therefore more likely. For example, we see;
Pro creation by anthropic theory: When considering the complex way the rules of physics manifest themselves in both physiology and cosmology it seems obvious that the slightest change in any factor of physics or any change in the nature of the universe would have made life impossible:

“If the rate of expansion one second after the 'Big Bang' had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million (0,000000000000001%), the universe would have recollapsed. The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the Big Bang are enormous”. (Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes', Page 128).

“If gravity (released by the Big Bang) had been stronger or weaker by even one part in ten thousand million million million million million million (0,00000000000000000000000000000000000001%) then life sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible.” (Brandon Carter, ‘New Physics’ Page 187).

So we see that the complex rules of the physics of the universe - even if they were altered slightly, would make life impossible to exist within this universe. It all started with a design of life; then the universe was custom made in order for such life to exist. Such a well balanced universe and complicated creatures cannot be the result of mere luck. This order suggests creation.




Moving on...


Claim that: Children - without being taught - have a Predisposition to believe in Supreme Being who created with a Purpose.


Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.

He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.

"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."

In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

In one study, six and seven-year-olds who were asked why the first bird existed replied "to make nice music" and "because it makes the world look nice".

Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap.


Dr Barrett said there is evidence that even by the age of four, children understand that although some objects are made by humans, the natural world is different.

He added that this means children are more likely to believe in creationism rather than evolution, despite what they may be told by parents or teachers.

Dr Barrett claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.

"Children's normally and naturally developing minds make them prone to believe in divine creation and intelligent design. In contrast, evolution is unnatural for human minds; relatively difficult to believe."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ic-claims.html


We see from the above study that the human nature accepts and believes that everything has a purpose, i.e. "to make nice music", "it makes the world look nice".



Conclusion


So we see that it is in agreement with human nature to accept that everything is done with a purpose, along with control and order of one with knowledge and power. This is what the mind accepts and is at ease with, this is the simplest and most plausible of the two competitors (chance vs control), this is the human nature.
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Uthman
06-29-2009, 08:37 PM
Threads Merged
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Azy
06-30-2009, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Exactly what is unfounded in observing the natural world and asking questions?
That's not what I or the report said.
"because they assume that everything in the world was created"
"make unfounded assumptions about nature"
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
They are expecting the atheist response, that children are atheists until their care takers indoctrinate them of course, at least that is what many of you allege!
I take it, you have inside details to what went on in the research?
What I meant was that it's hardly reasonable to expect a 6 year old to do anything but attempt to answer the question in a straightforward manner regardless of whether the question is simple, vague, leading or nonsensical; you could probably get whatever answer you wanted by asking the right questions.

"Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap."
What does that really tell us beyond what we already know? People are usually surprised by things which are counterintuitive. The majority of adults I know are surprised by quantum tunnelling.
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جوري
06-30-2009, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
That's not what I or the report said.
"because they assume that everything in the world was created"
"make unfounded assumptions about nature"
What you said has no bearing on the research, it is your own opinion, what we can safely conclude from the report is that it is instinctive to believe in God, the point is no formal schooling at home or else where wouldn't breed little atheists if let be to their devices, rather breeds deists!

What I meant was that it's hardly reasonable to expect a 6 year old to do anything but attempt to answer the question in a straightforward manner regardless of whether the question is simple, vague, leading or nonsensical; you could probably get whatever answer you wanted by asking the right questions.

"Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap."
What does that really tell us beyond what we already know? People are usually surprised by things which are counterintuitive. The majority of adults I know are surprised by quantum tunnelling.
Rather what you meant is that you didn't like the subject matter of the report, so you'd either bring in outside rubrics whether on children or adults that have positively no relevance to this one or dismiss it as a series of leading questions when in fact you weren't there to see how the research was conducted. People don't usually like research that is out to prove their basic beliefs incorrect, especially when science becomes the religion they look to for answers and then find that it directs them else where... this research proved the basic instincts in children like the moro, rooting, galant or palmar grasp.. to have them is instinctive and normal, to not have them is not, and unlike where most atheists contend that children would not be diests were it not for early indoctrination, in comes what proves otherwise and that appears from the response here extremely unsettling!

all the best
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czgibson
06-30-2009, 11:27 PM
Greetings,

Does Dr. Justin Barrett's research suggest that creationism is essentially a childish belief?

Peace
Reply

جوري
06-30-2009, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Does Dr. Justin Barrett's research suggest that creationism is essentially a childish belief?

Peace

you have read the same article as the rest of us? even if you skimmed through it the title would have sufficed you as 'Children are born believers in God' not 'creationism is essentially a childish belief?' or 'atheists are psychoneurotic and delusional adults'

all the best
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 11:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Does Dr. Justin Barrett's research suggest that creationism is essentially a childish belief?

Peace
As much as the fact that troubled people often lose faith makes atheism the position of the mentally disturbed.
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Azy
07-01-2009, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
What you said has no bearing on the research, it is your own opinion, what we can safely conclude from the report is that it is instinctive to believe in God, the point is no formal schooling at home or else where wouldn't breed little atheists if let be to their devices, rather breeds deists!
I wouldn't go so far as to say that attributing purpose to things is the same as instinctively believing in God.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Rather what you meant is that you didn't like the subject matter of the report, so you'd either bring in outside rubrics whether on children or adults that have positively no relevance to this one or dismiss it as a series of leading questions when in fact you weren't there to see how the research was conducted.
I'm going by what was posted. If those quotes aren't representative of the research as a whole then they just picked some really bad examples for the press release.

Of course it's no secret I don't like the subject matter of the report, I'm not hiding anything and it would be quite obvious if I were.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
People don't usually like research that is out to prove their basic beliefs incorrect, especially when science becomes the religion they look to for answers and then find that it directs them else where...
It wouldn't make any difference to me either way, I'm quite flexible. That which can be shown to be true is fine by me.

My qualms are with the apparently loaded questions asked by an interviewer whose Christian leanings are fairly apparent.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
this research proved the basic instincts in children like the moro, rooting, galant or palmar grasp.. to have them is instinctive and normal, to not have them is not, and unlike where most atheists contend that children would not be diests were it not for early indoctrination, in comes what proves otherwise and that appears from the response here extremely unsettling!
I'm not sure how the atheists of the world will react to you being instated as their chief spokesperson, but that's by the by.

The outcome described in this report seems perfectly reasonable to me, attributing purpose to events and objects without any solid grounding is something that almost everyone does.
What I don't understand is why the theists here are all rubbing their hands together with glee, unless it is the case that something which is intuitive is accordingly true.
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جوري
07-01-2009, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I wouldn't go so far as to say that attributing purpose to things is the same as instinctively believing in God.
Then what in your opinion is the purpose?

I'm going by what was posted. If those quotes aren't representative of the research as a whole then they just picked some really bad examples for the press release.
In reports of this nature, I don't really know what sort of examples you want?
Of course it's no secret I don't like the subject matter of the report, I'm not hiding anything and it would be quite obvious if I were.
It wouldn't make any difference to me either way, I'm quite flexible. That which can be shown to be true is fine by me.
You can't fess up to disliking the subject matter and admitting flexibility at the same time, obviously your former point will issue some bias.
My qualms are with the apparently loaded questions asked by an interviewer whose Christian leanings are fairly apparent.
Again, I don't see how you can comment on that, not having been there to see if there were detrimental confounders.

I'm not sure how the atheists of the world will react to you being instated as their chief spokesperson, but that's by the by.
'by the bye'-- the topic has nothing to do with Christianity or Islam or Judaism, if your reservations are on a theist conducting research as it so happens atheists make up quite a small percentage of the world at large and the scientific community, will you always be dismissive because the researcher isn't conducting topics in a subject manner you like?
In other words and not so distant past some atheist fellow produced a report on how atheists are more altruistic than the general population, would that report be deemed more satisfactory and believable because it embraces your own personal bias, or because it is conducted by an atheist rather than for its scientific approach and integrity of the research?

The outcome described in this report seems perfectly reasonable to me, attributing purpose to events and objects without any solid grounding is something that almost everyone does.
Solid grounding will not yield you, your desired outcome, you might rationalize, intellectualize, ignore or any number of other defense mechanisms but there is no solid grounding in atheism just the same.
What we are born with is instinctive, going against it, isn't!

What I don't understand is why the theists here are all rubbing their hands together with glee, unless it is the case that something which is intuitive is accordingly true.
I feel the same way of atheists pouncing on this with some of the most sophomoric comments I have encountered, almost a stab at the very citadel of their worship.. the only reason this is of interest to anyone at all is for the numerous times we've heard and read from atheists that no one would believe in God unless indoctrinated through parenting or schooling or community at large..

apparently it isn't true.. take away religion and man will still seek his maker!

all the best
Reply

Gator
07-01-2009, 01:52 AM
My kid may believe there's a monster in her closet, but that don't make it true.
Reply

جوري
07-01-2009, 02:06 AM
The level of condescension and silliness that atheists often stoop when challenged on their basic beliefs is worthy of notice.

between it is childish to believe or monsters in the closet and God knows what else is coming next.. pls if you can't keep your comments within the contents and to a level, there is no point in commenting at all.. This is the health and science section so keep it the level of science and research and not your personal feelings or beliefs!

all the best
Reply

Azy
07-01-2009, 11:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Then what in your opinion is the purpose?
As you say, my opinion doesn't matter, but there are other alternatives. Everything might be a free agent with it's own purpose.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You can't fess up to disliking the subject matter and admitting flexibility at the same time, obviously your former point will issue some bias.
Disliking a thing doesn't mean I can't accept it.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Again, I don't see how you can comment on that, not having been there to see if there were detrimental confounders.
And I suppose you don't get suspicious when the dairy industry 'donates' money to policy makers.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
some atheist fellow produced a report... would that report be deemed more satisfactory and believable because it embraces your own personal bias, or because it is conducted by an atheist rather than for its scientific approach and integrity of the research?
Yeah, personal bias every time baby. Bulldoze the churches, Nick Griffin for PM.
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
but there is no solid grounding in atheism just the same.
You don't really need a solid grounding not to believe a thing...
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
almost a stab at the very citadel of their worship..
Scientific study proves science is flawed?
Reply

Hejazy .
07-01-2009, 11:57 AM
Asalam alaikum warahmatulah Wabarakatuh

Really it`s a very nice topic

May Allah bless u .
Reply

جوري
07-01-2009, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
As you say, my opinion doesn't matter, but there are other alternatives. Everything might be a free agent with it's own purpose.
Disliking a thing doesn't mean I can't accept it.
Your opinion can only matter if you are able to parley it into some verifiable data, until such a time, it stands on equal grounds as every other opinion.. yes some opinions are more absurd than others, that is why folks develop criteria.. as an aside..
how do you judge someone is an alcoholic?
17 year old kid, brought in by his parents because he drinks alcohol, and the kid boasts, I can drink even more now to get the same effects..
does the above mean this kid is an alcoholic?
well it seems he is, observation from parents, and he needs more to get a buzz.. in fact only one criteria is met out of eight which is that of drinking more, not even direct observation by his parents of his behavior qualifies as evidence here. In scientific studies with no palpable data you can only set stringent criteria.. feelings and opinions still wouldn't count!

And I suppose you don't get suspicious when the dairy industry 'donates' money to policy makers.
Irrelevant to this study-- & irrelevant to the study of atheists being more altruistic. I can only judge based on individual merits!
Yeah, personal bias every time baby. Bulldoze the churches, Nick Griffin for PM.
No clue what this means?
You don't really need a solid grounding not to believe a thing...
Scientific study proves science is flawed?
It depends on your integrity of the research you are conducting and indeed many trials have proven alot of 'science' flawed...
treating syphilis by introducing Malaria might have been very scientific at some point, with the logic and science that spirochetes didn't survive high temperature of a body in fever, but is rather hilarious by our modern standards .. science is ever correcting and changing, 200 year old science might have been very avant-garde for its time, but holds no relevance in face of newer advances or acquisition of new information!

all the best
Reply

Trumble
07-04-2009, 10:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
What you said has no bearing on the research, it is your own opinion, what we can safely conclude from the report is that it is instinctive to believe in God...
I don't see how you can 'safely conclude' any more than that children have a tendency at an early age to assign teleological explanations to what they experience rather than natural ones? Even 'instinctive' seems questionable; I'll accept that this preference hasn't been learned from adults but I see no reason it wouldn't follow (by analogy) from childrens' direct experience of themselves as causative agents?
Reply

جوري
07-04-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't see how you can 'safely conclude' any more than that children have a tendency at an early age to assign teleological explanations to what they experience rather than natural ones? Even 'instinctive' seems questionable; I'll accept that this preference hasn't been learned from adults but I see no reason it wouldn't follow (by analogy) from childrens' direct experience of themselves as causative agents?

what do you mean by 'tendency at an early age to assign teleological explanations to what they experience rather than natural ones'??

all the best
Reply

Trumble
07-04-2009, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
what do you mean by 'tendency at an early age to assign teleological explanations to what they experience rather than natural ones'??
On that assumption that children are seeking (intuitively, presumably) to create a coherent picture of the world around them in order that they may successfully interact with it, they will presumably seek to assign reasons for things. According to the research, they seem to assume the events they experience are caused by an active causal agent with a design or purpose rather than by natural physical processes - such as those occurring in meteorological phenomena, for example - that do not involve such an agent. Presumably the nature of the agent, and hence the explanation assigned, depends on the phenomena experienced. Mundane events would be assigned to other human beings, should any be present. In the case though of, say, a thunderstorm, the child could not relate it to anything they themselves could cause, and hence that a human being could cause, and will therefore need to come up with an alternative such as God, gods or nature spirits.

I am simply floating the suggestion that this behaviour could be, in fact, learned by children from their own experience (in the best empiricist tradition!) rather than being 'instinctive'. They know they can make things happen when they want, and therefore assume that whenever anything happens it is because something or someone wants it to. Obviously, as children grow older teleological explanations are discarded in many cases as they become more familiar with the physical processes going on in the world around them.
Reply

جوري
07-04-2009, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
On that assumption that children are seeking (intuitively, presumably) to create a coherent picture of the world around them in order that they may successfully interact with it, they will presumably seek to assign reasons for things. According to the research, they seem to assume the events they experience are caused by an active causal agent with a design or purpose rather than by natural physical processes - such as those occurring in meteorological phenomena, for example - that do not involve such an agent. Presumably the nature of the agent, and hence the explanation assigned, depends on the phenomena experienced. Mundane events would be assigned to other human beings, should any be present. In the case though of, say, a thunderstorm, the child could not relate it to anything they themselves could cause, and hence that a human being could cause, and will therefore need to come up with an alternative such as God, gods or nature spirits.

I am simply floating the suggestion that this behaviour could be, in fact, learned by children from their own experience (in the best empirical tradition!) rather than being 'instinctive'. They know they can make things happen when they want, and therefore assume that whenever anything happens it is because something or someone wants it to. Obviously, as children grow older teleological explanations are discarded in many cases as they become more familiar with the physical processes going on in the world around them.

I can accept in part what you propose here.. the only problem is what you deem 'natural phenomenon' relies on an imaginary line or standard by which things are measured or compared but does not in and of itself offer more than a superficial account, since it is only concerned with explaining the obvious.
Why do we have glycolysis? so we can turn glucose into pyruvate, why do we need this conversion process, so we can harness energy, why do we need to harness energy, so we can survive, why do we need to survive? at some point you'll run out of 'natural explanations' why are we here, how did glycolysis get integrated into our bodies, when did it first come to be, how does it know to work in concert with other biochemical processes, why are there no futile cycles, why do all these biochemical reactions have a rate limiting step except for the urea cycle, how did the urea cycle know not to have a rate limiting step and so on and so on, try that times an infinite number to account for all the things we don't actually have more than a how it works rather than why...

children have that nidus and superficial answers might please them, they acquire more as adults that is true indeed, but some adults are happy with the 'natural response' though they can't account for the very specialized aspects of it and thus leave it for the day when deeper perception and reasoning of said 'Natural processes' -- while other adults tread the same path and acquiring more than what they started off with come with the same conclusion they held as children.. it is indeed what we call fitrah and I didn't personally need research to prove it.. but it was nice to see nonetheless on the account that many deem children to be born atheists.. I have no expectations from children for many obvious reasons, but being on the path of discovery, they are indeed equipped with this inherent response to the world around them.


all the best
Reply

nebula
01-17-2010, 09:45 AM
Children are born believers in God, academic claims

Children are "born believers" in God and do not simply acquire religious beliefs through indoctrination, according to an academic.



Dr. Barrett: "If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God." Photo: John Taylor

Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.

He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.

"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."

In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

In one study, six and seven-year-olds who were asked why the first bird existed replied "to make nice music" and "because it makes the world look nice".

Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap.

Dr Barrett said there is evidence that even by the age of four, children understand that although some objects are made by humans, the natural world is different.

He added that this means children are more likely to believe in creationism rather than evolution, despite what they may be told by parents or teachers.

Dr Barrett claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.

"Children's normally and naturally developing minds make them prone to believe in divine creation and intelligent design. In contrast, evolution is unnatural for human minds; relatively difficult to believe."

source
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Supreme
01-17-2010, 02:47 PM
I thought this was already established knowledge? It's logical to assume that children left on an island would up god/s for comfort and hope anyway, it's human nature. Man has been worshipping since its creation.
Reply

Ramadhan
01-17-2010, 03:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
I thought this was already established knowledge? It's logical to assume that children left on an island would up god/s for comfort and hope anyway, it's human nature. Man has been worshipping since its creation.
Mind you, we have agnostics here who completely disagree with that. No matter how absurd that sounds.
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