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north_malaysian
05-30-2009, 12:10 AM
Alcohol, Prostitution Rife in New Iraq

By Afif Sarhan, IOL Correspondent



Bars, pubs and liquor stores are now back and proliferating in Iraq.

BAGHDAD — After disappearing for the past six years, sin and vice are now running rife in the streets of the Iraqi capital.

"Sin is part of Baghdadis' lives again," Fadilla Muhammed, member of a group campaigning for family traditions and morals, told IslamOnline.net.
Bars, pubs and liquor stores, once shut down by militant groups, are back to business and proliferating.

Prostitution homes have reopened, and in many of them, prostitutes troll for clients.

In downtown Baghdad, cinemas infamous for showing sex-themed movies while spectators engage in actual sexual relations in their chairs or in the bathrooms are re-opening.

Although less common, women are found inside such movie theaters, offering themselves or their own daughters for clients.

"Today, after the invasion and many attempts to shut down such places, they came back with strength," notes Muhammed.

According to Mustafa al-Ghadhun, a senior Health Ministry official, there is an increase in the alcohol consumption and drugs in Iraq.

"There is also a very large consumption of medicines containing codeine and valium derivatives," he told IOL.

"We are concerned about the quantity consumed, as many cases of alcohol addiction have been reported."

Baghdad districts such as Sadr, Alawi, Dora, Bab al-Muadhem and Gazellia have reportedly become hotbeds for drug dealing.

Drug dealers are also especially active in the areas where policing is less present and where militias hold sway.

Democracy

For those who indulge in all the once-illicit practices, this is what they have wanted the Americans to bring to Iraq.

"It is time to feel liberty and some Western traditions," says Abu Feiraz who is sitting in a café at Karada district with his 17-year-old son playing chess.

"We are adults and responsible for our acts," said the father while pouring more wine in his son’s glass.

He defended the return of alcohol and prostitution as part of the democratic Western lifestyle the US has vowed o bring to Iraq.

"I’m not hurting or destroying the life of anyone."

Sitting in a tavern drinking a glass of wine, Faeq agrees.

"Each human being has the right to decide what he wants for his life."

He argues that many Iraqis like him are tired after years of war and violence and have found in drugs and alcohol a way to run away from problems.

"We can not only be worried about what will happen. We want to have fun after all these years of suffering.

"It is time to live the western life that was one of the gifts the Americans said would bring to us."

But not everyone is happy that sin reared its ugly face back.

Sheikh Ibraheem Ahmed Naffi, a Karada district imam, warns that the new sinful lifestyle would affect thousands of young Iraqis.

"It is a Muslim country and alcohol should be forbidden," he stressed.

"Family values are being lost in Iraq and the government isn’t doing anything to address the problem," he fumed.

"That’s one of the issues that make the difference between us and Westerns."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout
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The_Prince
05-30-2009, 05:55 AM
lol, yes, this is the westernnnnnnnn way they brought for us, this is a good article, gonna save it for future referencing.
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Clover
05-30-2009, 09:22 AM
I love the Blame America Game...

Oh yes, because they drink, we should have never dis-placed Sadam Hussein. Next time a lunatic dictator decides to rule a country and support terrorism, let's let him stay, since, dare I say it, forbid, the people drink a beer!

Americans don't have family morals? This is new to me, I didn't know that. I guess when my family taught me to never hit a girl, always to address older people as sir/maam, and to always open the door for others, that was just something different...
Reply

S_87
05-30-2009, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by Clover
I love the Blame America Game...

Oh yes, because they drink, we should have never dis-placed Sadam Hussein. Next time a lunatic dictator decides to rule a country and support terrorism, let's let him stay, since, dare I say it, forbid, the people drink a beer!

...
aah but america didnt always think he was a lunatic dictator when they could use him...
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alcurad
05-30-2009, 12:31 PM
none of it would've happened if not for the invasion, the actions the invaders took effectively broke society down in many places.
Reply

Sampharo
05-30-2009, 12:45 PM
Next time a lunatic dictator decides to rule a country and support terrorism, let's let him stay, since, dare I say it, forbid, the people drink a beer!
Support terrorism? You mean as per George Bush wildly unsupported claim? Or are you referring to the WMD's that were never found in the first place, and even if they were, they would have been within their rights? And the terrorists that you are referring to, you mean the same people that used to be USA's "closest ally" when the fighting was against the Soviet Union and they were back then "Freedom fighting mujahideen" to quote Ronald Reagan?

And yes, I am sure that Iraq now with rampant prostitution and alcoholism and death toll in the millions can be diluted down in description to a simple "the people are having a beer!"

Come on Clover, you can do better than this.
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KAding
05-30-2009, 01:38 PM
If the Iraqi's don't want alcohol to be sold legally they should enact laws to curb the sale of alcohol and enforce those laws.
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Amadeus85
05-30-2009, 02:18 PM
I have noticed that Islamonline likes to point out only bad things that happen in nowadays Iraq, as if nothing good happens there lately.
Reply

Amadeus85
05-30-2009, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
If the Iraqi's don't want alcohol to be sold legally they should enact laws to curb the sale of alcohol and enforce those laws.
Where is Your liberalism Kading?
Reply

KAding
05-30-2009, 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Where is Your liberalism Kading?
It is their country, I would not advocate or support such a policy in my own country.
Reply

Chains of Faith
05-30-2009, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by amani
aah but america didnt always think he was a lunatic dictator when they could use him...
well said.
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KAding
05-30-2009, 02:51 PM
The irony of it all is that IMHO Iraq is more likely to become "Islamic" then it ever was under Saddam. It'll take time though.
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Chains of Faith
05-30-2009, 02:57 PM
Inshallah we shall soon see the day.
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Suomipoika
05-30-2009, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by amani
aah but america didnt always think he was a lunatic dictator when they could use him...
Actually they always did. Nevertheless they still used him when they could. I dont remember the exact quote by Kissinger when he was speaking about Iran-Iraq war how it's a shame both of them cant lose.
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GreyKode
05-30-2009, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
I love the Blame America Game...

Oh yes, because they drink, we should have never dis-placed Sadam Hussein. Next time a lunatic dictator decides to rule a country and support terrorism, let's let him stay, since, dare I say it, forbid, the people drink a beer!

Americans don't have family morals? This is new to me, I didn't know that. I guess when my family taught me to never hit a girl, always to address older people as sir/maam, and to always open the door for others, that was just something different...
I even love more the
BLAME the muslim fundamentalist terrorist dictator game.

I wonder why bush got the pair of shoes from an Iraqi for?
Reply

Chains of Faith
05-30-2009, 03:03 PM
I was once told, before he Americans attacked Iraq, the amount of Suicide bomb attacks were close to 0. After they came, Suicide attacks became commonplace.
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aadil77
05-30-2009, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
If the Iraqi's don't want alcohol to be sold legally they should enact laws to curb the sale of alcohol and enforce those laws.
Well its not up to the iraqi's, this is a muslim country and the islamic law should be upheld, not the filthy desires of a few corrupted muslims.

Maybe a group like the taliban could do a better job there, thats is once the US get the hell out of there.
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Suomipoika
05-30-2009, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
I even love more the
BLAME the muslim fundamentalist terrorist dictator game.

I wonder why bush got the pair of shoes from an Iraqi for?
The iraqis invaded two of their neighbours, both of which were muslim countries. Whatever mistakes and evil acts "the west" has done, overall there is only one just target for shoe throwing, the iraqis. None of this would happen had they decided going to Iran and Kuwait was bad idea.

Originally Posted by Chains of Faith
I was once told, before he Americans attacked Iraq, the amount of Suicide bomb attacks were close to 0. After they came, Suicide attacks became commonplace.
Still there seemed to have been quite a lot of celebration after Saddam was deposed. Weird.
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aadil77
05-30-2009, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Still there seemed to have been quite a lot of celebration after Saddam was deposed. Weird.
Yh maybe if a muslim country had the balls to go and sort out the corrupted govt of sadam, we wouldn't have had many of these issues
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Sampharo
05-30-2009, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Still there seemed to have been quite a lot of celebration after Saddam was deposed. Weird.
Short-lived happiness from misguided Iraqis who thought for a second that the fall of a corrupt government would at least mean the decade old sanctions will end and the americans would actually bugger off now. Instead they installed a puppet, syphoned funds, and plugged a big fat pipe down to their backyard oil refinery, while making sure the troops are around to protect the new more-corrupt government and make sure they stay in power, while letting the resource-deprived civilians sort it out with gun-totting now purposeless sectarian militias. What a surprise they got.
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Suomipoika
05-30-2009, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by Sampharo
Short-lived happiness from misguided Iraqis who thought for a second that the fall of a corrupt government would at least mean the decade old sanctions will end and the americans would actually bugger off now. Instead they installed a puppet, syphoned funds, and plugged a big fat pipe down to their backyard oil refinery.
I guess we shall see about that in the end. The more violence is getting down, the faster USA is leaving and Iraqi people have their elections to elect whomever they wish. I haven't actually seen any real evidence to support your claims it's just the usual anti-American rant.
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seeker-of-light
05-30-2009, 05:04 PM
as an american, i think the american government is in the wrong for going to iraq to begin with. it just caused more problems (as if the world didnt already have enough of them) and amani is right, the usa government didnt "see" hussein as a dictator as long as he was beneficial for them to tolerate. kind of like the same situation with the previous dictator in pakistan that was backed by the usa. as long as they are pro-usa, they can be as dictator like as they want. sounds hypocritical to me.
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Clover
05-30-2009, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by Sampharo
Support terrorism? You mean as per George Bush wildly unsupported claim? Or are you referring to the WMD's that were never found in the first place, and even if they were, they would have been within their rights? And the terrorists that you are referring to, you mean the same people that used to be USA's "closest ally" when the fighting was against the Soviet Union and they were back then "Freedom fighting mujahideen" to quote Ronald Reagan?

And yes, I am sure that Iraq now with rampant prostitution and alcoholism and death toll in the millions can be diluted down in description to a simple "the people are having a beer!"

Come on Clover, you can do better than this.
How do you know they didn't sell the WMD's back to the original owner? That has been a long-known theory, and we don't know if they ever did or didn't have WMD's.

The U.S. aided them to fight for their own freedom, we didn't know after we did that, they'd help terrorists that planned on murdering Americans.

lol, I am doing what I want, expressing a opinoin.
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جوري
05-30-2009, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I have noticed that Islamonline likes to point out only bad things that happen in nowadays Iraq, as if nothing good happens there lately.

what good has been happening?

you have the scientists of the country either fleeing or murdered:

Targeted for Murder, Iraqi Scientists Named on a Hit List
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...&RESULTFORMAT=


Mossad mission: Murder Iraqi scholars
Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:47:45 GMT
Font size :



More than 500 Iraqi scientists and professors have been murdered by Israel's Mossad intelligence agency, an Iraqi newspaper reports.

The report stated that the killings were part of a mission to get rid of those Iraqi nuclear specialists and university professors that refused to cooperate with the Zionist regime.

The assassinations were carried out by Mossad and the US Defense Department - the Pentagon.

So far 350 scientists and 200 professors have been surreptitiously murdered by Israeli Mossad commandoes, deployed to Iraq exclusively to carry out these atrocities.

According to the US State Department, these killings came after Washington's attempts to entice Iraqi scientists to cooperate with the US failed.

Many specialists living in the US also refused to comply and fled, seeking refuge in other countries. Those willing to cooperate suffered grueling interrogations and even torture by the hands of US officials.

According to the Al-Bayna newspaper, Tel Aviv sees these scientists posing a threat to the security of the Zionist regime, and has decided the best way to deal with this is to assassinate the offending intellectuals.

The Pentagon expressed its approval of such a scheme seven months ago, dispatching back-up for the Israeli commandoes, and also providing them with full personal records of the targeted victims.

The scholars are killed far from their homes in staged scenarios, taking advantage of the regularly expected bomb attacks happening every day in Iraq.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=34398

and then you have the debauchery, baseness and poverty that happens under most western imperialistic occupations .. it is only a leeway for the scum of the earth to take charge.
Iraq under Sadaam wasn't wonderful that is true, but it is their own business, it was certainly better than this, so who is to blame?
such occurrences have indeed increased subsequent to the occupation, it doesn't take a genius or Islamonline to draw that conclusion. It is obvious as day!
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Whatsthepoint
05-30-2009, 08:13 PM
hehe, and you tell me to go count dead pigs.:D
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Trumble
05-30-2009, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

Targeted for Murder, Iraqi Scientists Named on a Hit List
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...&RESULTFORMAT=
Could you possibly quote that article, or at least the relevant chunks of it? You seem to have to be a subscriber to read it.

BTW, you don't actually believe that Press TV fairy story do you?
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جوري
05-30-2009, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Could you possibly quote that article, or at least the relevant chunks of it? You seem to have to be a subscriber to read it.

BTW, you don't actually believe that Press TV fairy story do you?
of your first query

Isam Kadhem F. al-Rawi
Association of Muslim scholars in Iraq

The founder and head of the Iraqi Association of University Lecturers, Isam Kadhem F. al-Rawi, was assassinated on 30 October. This news strikes a blow to efforts to build scientific capacity in the country.
Al-Rawi, who was a candidate for the position of higher education and scientific research minister in Iraq, was shot dead by gunmen near his house in Baghdad in what appears to be a coordinated campaign against Iraqi intellectuals.
"Once again the wave of killing has reached a top Iraqi scientist, making it more difficult for promoting science development and establishing a knowledge-based economy in war-torn Iraq," Malik Alasmar, an Iraqi researcher based at the University of Ghent in Belgium, told SciDev.Net.
In June it was discovered that a hit list was being circulated among Iraqi assassins, calling for the murder of 461 scientists, university officials, engineers, doctors and journalists in Iraq (see Hit list names hundreds of Iraqi scientists).
Alasmar indicated that this new event highlights the importance of providing protection for Iraqi scientists given the current security crisis.
"The Iraqi authorities, the US-led coalition forces and international science and technology [organisations] as well as human rights organisations should take coordinated action to stop this ongoing murdering campaign of Iraqi scientists," he said.
Al-Rawi was a professor of geology at the Earth Sciences Department of the University of Baghdad, and had been cataloguing the assassinations of academics in occupied Iraq since the 2003 US-led invasion.
He was a member of the Shoura council — a body that acts similarly to Western parliaments — of the Association of Muslim scholars in Iraq that represents Sunni Muslim religious leaders in Iraq.
He believed that assassins were targeting well-known Iraqi scholars in a coordinated effort to force them to leave the country, thus hindering the country's reconstruction.
Nabil Al-Tikriti, an Iraqi assistant professor at the US-based University of Mary Washington agrees a coordinated campaign, or perhaps several campaigns of intellectual 'liquidation' seem well underway in Iraq.
"Not a single one of those responsible for these 300 plus murders has ever been apprehended, and no public investigation of any of these murders has yet been launched."
"Al-Rawi died attempting to bring attention to this disturbing trend, and will be sorely missed by the Iraqi academic community whom he was striving to assist," Al-Tikriti told SciDev.Net.

and the answer to your second is--yes I do!

all the best
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GreyKode
05-30-2009, 09:06 PM
The U.S. aided them to fight for their own freedom, we didn't know after we did that, they'd help terrorists that planned on murdering Americans.
I believe this is a very twisted interpretation.
why not resort to the more straightforward interpretation that they didn't want the american interference in the first place, and that they despise the american invasion so much that they are murdering the American soldiers.
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Zafran
05-30-2009, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
How do you know they didn't sell the WMD's back to the original owner? That has been a long-known theory, and we don't know if they ever did or didn't have WMD's.
The U.S. aided them to fight for their own freedom, we didn't know after we did that, they'd help terrorists that planned on murdering Americans.

lol, I am doing what I want, expressing a opinoin.
This is a very shallow way to look at america in Iraq. The whole point The US went into to Iraq was Prmiary for there own gain - ofcourse it didnt work our for them.

The UN reports are sufficent to tell us if Iraq had WMDs and furthermore America which is one of the biggest arms dealer around today should have known how powerful Iraq actually was, besides it was one of the countries that supplied Saddam with all the crazy arms that he used - eg the killing of the Kurds and the Iran - Iraq war.

Murdering americans(militery) is one thing but the murderering of innocent Iraqis is a totally different thing. Like Abu Gharib.
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Clover
05-31-2009, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
This is a very shallow way to look at america in Iraq. The whole point The US went into to Iraq was Prmiary for there own gain - ofcourse it didnt work our for them.

The UN reports are sufficent to tell us if Iraq had WMDs and furthermore America which is one of the biggest arms dealer around today should have known how powerful Iraq actually was, besides it was one of the countries that supplied Saddam with all the crazy arms that he used - eg the killing of the Kurds and the Iran - Iraq war.

Murdering americans(militery) is one thing but the murderering of innocent Iraqis is a totally different thing. Like Abu Gharib.
We went to Iraq, to do many things, yes, some were for us, but many of them were for the Iraqi people.

We supplied Saddam to help fight the Russians, I do not know about killing kurds...

Life is Life.

Originally Posted by GreyKode
I believe this is a very twisted interpretation.
why not resort to the more straightforward interpretation that they didn't want the american interference in the first place, and that they despise the american invasion so much that they are murdering the American soldiers.
Yet, they accepted aid?
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north_malaysian
05-31-2009, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
Next time a lunatic dictator decides to rule a country and support terrorism, let's let him stay
Well, we're having one right now.. Kim Jong Il.... I wonder if the North Koreans have access to alcoholic drinks and prostitutes...
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north_malaysian
05-31-2009, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
Americans don't have family morals? This is new to me, I didn't know that. I guess when my family taught me to never hit a girl, always to address older people as sir/maam, and to always open the door for others, that was just something different...
Unfortunately, for the people outside USA... they knew about Americans from MTV, E! Channel, HBO, AXN etc...
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alcurad
05-31-2009, 04:01 PM
^so true, many know nothing except that about the US/West.
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ardianto
05-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
We went to Iraq, to do many things, yes, some were for us, but many of them were for the Iraqi people.
We supplied Saddam to help fight the Russians, I do not know about killing kurds...
Life is Life.
Yet, they accepted aid?
Did Saddam fought the Russians ?. When ?.
During Iraq-Iran war Iraqi used Russian weapons.
And what country that sold weapons to Iranian ?. You can ask your history theacher, what was Iran-Contra scandal ?.

There are two people that always described themselves as oppressed people under Saddam's government.

First, Kurdish. They want to establish their own country, Kurdistan. Their claimed area are northern Iraq and southern Turkey. During Iraq-Iran war, Iranian promises them to help their freedom, then they help Iranian for fight aginst Iraq, that's why Saddam kill them.

Second, Shia. Although Shias are nearly 60% in Iraqi people, Saddam and his men are Sunni. Shia always described themselves as second class people under Saddam govt.

Pentagon sees Kurd and Iraqi Shia as allies. When agression on Iraq began, US military supplied them with weapons, they US military recruits Shia as Iraqi Police under US military, and swept out Sunni people from government.
Now Iraq has downed into sectarian clash between Shia and Sunni.

Yes, they have accepted aid. But they are not all of Iraqi people, but US allies only.
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Zafran
05-31-2009, 05:02 PM
Life is Life.
not for the people who take life unjustly like killing innocents - they get whacked like Saddam Hussien.

We supplied Saddam to help fight the Russians, I do not know about killing kurds...
- I have to remind you of the Iran Iraq war - america armed Saddam then and he was very dangerous then thats why he could easily kill the Kurds and america turned a blind eye.

and your statement

some were for us, but many of them were for the Iraqi people.
No who ever who was american went for america - nobody went for the Iraqis in Iraq - rule number one about modern states - they look out for themselves - Iraq is the same - so is america.
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Clover
05-31-2009, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
not for the people who take life unjustly like killing innocents - they get whacked like Saddam Hussien.
This conversation is over.
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Zafran
05-31-2009, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
This conversation is over.
I thought so.
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themuffinman
06-01-2009, 05:43 AM
hmmm just to play devils advocate even in America prostitution isn't legal. you know it started with the militants putting so many restrictions upon them in the first place. its like letting a starved man into a grocery store he will probably over consume himself to death. the militants should have been less strict even in islam there is no compulsion in religion.
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north_malaysian
06-10-2009, 03:47 AM
Iraq's Gay Life

By Afif Sarhan, IOL Correspondent

BAGHDAD — Gay life is thriving in post-invasion Iraq with many places becoming openly homosexual-friendly amid efforts by social groups and religious leaders to reverse the trend.

"The gay community in Iraq is increasing despite the fear from extremists," Salahdinne Abdullah al-Rabia’a, a social worker in the capital Baghdad, told IslamOnline.net.

Contrary to reports that homosexuals are going underground, gays are reportedly gaining choices and places in the war-torn country.

In the first years after the US-led invasion, militant attacks had led gays to go into hiding.

But now, nearly seven years, gay life is taking some roots with central Baghdad emerging as their popular meeting point.

With very few money, as cheep as US $3, gay couples are able to spend hours in hotels with no worries of attacks or security arrests.

Cinemas, taverns and specific corners are the new havens for homosexuals, particularly males.

"I have to allow such sexual behaviors in my place because if I don’t, I will be forced to close my business due to the lack of clients," argues Abu Ruwaida, a cinema owner in downtown Baghdad.

"They are adults and have their social and religious conscious. If someone will punish them, it will be God and not me."

Homosexuality is totally prohibited in Islam as well as in all divine religions.

Islam teaches that believers should neither do the obscene acts, nor in any way indulge in their propagation.

Business

Some homosexuals, such as Tarik Kammar, are even turning this into a business.

Kammar, not his real name, spends hours standing at the corners of central Baghdad streets looking for clients who usually drive slowly around the roads looking for gay prostitutes.

"I’m gay but what drove me into prostitution was the unemployment in Iraq," said the 26-year-old, adding that he is paid between 5-15 dollars.
"Most of my clients are old men who are married and with kids. They don’t speak much but the ring shines," he said.

"The obligation to get married turns many gay men into betrayers, taking the risk to catch a disease outside and transmit it to their wives."

Like others in his profession, Kammar is unfazed by neither police crackdowns nor by militant attacks.

Since January, 25 boys and men were killed in Baghdad because they were, or were perceived to be, gay, according to Baghdad’s police.

"It is a risk, but like me, many others are taking."

The rise of gays activity in Iraq is alarming religious leaders.

"It is clear in the holy book that homosexual behaviors are unacceptable," Sheikh Abdel-Rahman Abdun, the imam of Rahim mosque in Baghdad, told IOL.

Many scholars have raised their concerns and have been alerting followers at Friday prayers to look after their sons and protect them from such behaviors.

"A good religious education will prevent such kind of behaviors," Abdun believes.

"It is our obligation to reinforce the subject and prevent that depravation from turning into a common practice in this Muslim country."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout
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Joe98
06-10-2009, 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
In the first years after the US-led invasion, militant attacks had led gays to go into hiding.

But now, nearly seven years, gay life is taking some roots.........

So, before the US invasion they were not in hiding.

Militant atacks on gays only started after Saddam was gone.

Bring back Saddam Hussain!
-
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north_malaysian
06-10-2009, 06:52 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98

Bring back Saddam Hussain!
-
he's dead.
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Wyatt
06-10-2009, 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Bring back Saddam Hussain!
-
Apparently you missed this:

[ http://www.break.com/index/graphic_s...ing_video.html ]
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
I love the Blame America Game...

Oh yes, because they drink, we should have never dis-placed Sadam Hussein. Next time a lunatic dictator decides to rule a country and support terrorism, let's let him stay, since, dare I say it, forbid, the people drink a beer!
American government once supported that ''lunatic dictator.''

I'm rather confused. One minute America is your ally and the next minute their are your enemy. I do wish they could make up their mind.

This clearly points to the obvious, American government only support countries that have the same interests as them. Any disagreements, America labels that country as their enemy.

It shows the American government have not tolerance and no respect for other countries points of view. They use the media as a form of propaganda to gain support from the public.


Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I have noticed that Islamonline likes to point out only bad things that happen in nowadays Iraq, as if nothing good happens there lately.

Well it would have been helpful for you to list all the good things that happened. To provide evidence to back up your claim.

The only good things that happened in Iraq they removed Sadaam Huessin though war was not the answer. They could have been variety of ways to establish democracy.

America went to war to ''save'' Iraqi citizens. Instead, they have killed thousands of innocent’s civilians.

There is horrific evidence of torture used upon suspects by the Bush Administration.

All this outweighs the good the American government have actually done.


Originally Posted by amani
aah but america didnt always think he was a lunatic dictator when they could use him...
Yes. If I am not mistakened, Iraq had certain disputes with Iran. America supported Iraq actions.


Originally Posted by seeker-of-light
as an american, i think the american government is in the wrong for going to iraq to begin with. it just caused more problems (as if the world didnt already have enough of them) and amani is right, the usa government didnt "see" hussein as a dictator as long as he was beneficial for them to tolerate. kind of like the same situation with the previous dictator in pakistan that was backed by the usa. as long as they are pro-usa, they can be as dictator like as they want. sounds hypocritical to me.
I agree with you. These are American government disposable puppets. When they are not in any use, they are disposed of.

That is the impression I am getting from the American government.


Originally Posted by Clover
How do you know they didn't sell the WMD's back to the original owner? That has been a long-known theory, and we don't know if they ever did or didn't have WMD's.

The U.S. aided them to fight for their own freedom, we didn't know after we did that, they'd help terrorists that planned on murdering Americans.

lol, I am doing what I want, expressing a opinoin.
What is strange to me is that the American government throw a tantrum where they hear a country developing nuclear energy/weapons.

I think America is the actual big threat. They actually used Nuclear Weapons.

''Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.'' Does this ring a bell?

Personally, I cannot trust American government. Based on their actions, they only support those who share similar interests. American government need to learn that not everything can happen meet their needs. They do more harm than good.
Reply

Zafran
06-10-2009, 02:41 PM
Salaam

Just to add Obama is unwilling to release 44 images of Gutanmo/cuba prisoners who have been abused by the US personal - he doesnt want to release them becasue it would give america a worse image in the muslim world - a form of censorship in other words - for the greater good in Obama's eyes.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009...se-of-detaine/
Reply

GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Salaam

Just to add Obama is unwilling to release 44 images of Gutanmo/cuba prisoners who have been abused by the US personal - he doesnt want to release them becasue it would give america a worse image in the muslim world - a form of censorship in other words - for the greater good in Obama's eyes.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009...se-of-detaine/
Salaam.

I am not surprised. America needs to learn how to handle the truth. Learn from their past mistakes and never repeat them again. However, the likely chance of that occurring is zero.
Reply

Zafran
06-10-2009, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Salaam.

I am not surprised. America needs to learn how to handle the truth. Learn from their past mistakes and never repeat them again. However, the likely chance of that occurring is zero.
Salaam

I agree with you - hiding history wont help them one bit - Just hiding the images is going to create a worse image of america.

peace
Reply

Wyatt
06-10-2009, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Salaam

Just to add Obama is unwilling to release 44 images of Gutanmo/cuba prisoners who have been abused by the US personal - he doesnt want to release them becasue it would give america a worse image in the muslim world - a form of censorship in other words - for the greater good in Obama's eyes.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009...se-of-detaine/
They should be released, I agree, for honesty, but I also agree with Obama that the prisoners' faces should not be plastered everywhere for even more embarrassment. Another excuse is national security which is kind of a weak argument to me, but... :X
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Podarok
They should be released, I agree, for honesty, but I also agree with Obama that the prisoners' faces should not be plastered everywhere for even more embarrassment. Another excuse is national security which is kind of a weak argument to me, but... :X
Thats not his reason - the prisoners faces will blotted out but hes worried about how the muslim world is going to react to these images and what thats going to do there standing in the world - including the images acting as a recruitment tool for terrorism.
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noorahmad
06-10-2009, 09:40 PM
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1203758147874

results of democracy and the US invasion...

and yes why the hell did bush invaded Iraq??? link with Al Qaida and possession of mass destruction weapons... of which none have been proved.

if democracy = legalization of alcohol, drugs, prostitution etc... i prefer saddam, and so should every muslim
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Zafran
06-10-2009, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by noorahmad
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1203758147874

results of democracy and the US invasion...

and yes why the hell did bush invaded Iraq??? link with Al Qaida and possession of mass destruction weapons... of which none have been proved.

if democracy = legalization of alcohol, drugs, prostitution etc... i prefer saddam, and so should every muslim
salaam

Its an illiegal war - everybody knows that - just nobody can do anything about it as america is the only militery superpower of the world - and nobody can stand up to it otherwise they will be destroyed.
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noorahmad
06-10-2009, 10:09 PM
and yeah, the silence of the UN and the Arab league.

if only the Muslim leaders had guts, they could rule the world... they could have closed the petrol tap and let the world starve till they decide to change things

and yea, some are gonna think that they got their army, nuclear power etc, but didnt the mujaheddin bring down the soviet union, and now even the US is finding it hard to cope with them.

think of badr, of the first Muslim empires, how they ruled the world... they had tawakul... unlike us
Reply

Joe98
06-10-2009, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by noorahmad

if democracy = legalization of alcohol, drugs, prostitution etc... i prefer saddam, and so should every muslim

And Saddam allowed the Iraqi gays to live peacefully !

-
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noorahmad
06-10-2009, 10:11 PM
well, that i dnt know...
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Wyatt
06-11-2009, 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by noorahmad
if democracy = legalization of alcohol, drugs, prostitution etc... i prefer saddam, and so should every muslim
Don't you think people should have the choice of religion and whether or not they follow Islamic laws? Obviously, because you are a Muslim, you probably think it's no big deal making others do what you feel is right, but to someone else, it is a huge deal when we are restricted by things from that with which we are not involved. Enforcing Islam (or any other religion) on people isn't the most productive thing in the world, and can be even more destructive than the crimes brought by the regulation of alcohol and drugs.

So, I respectfully disagree with you. :-[

(However, personally, I hate alcohol, so I would support its prohibition if it came to choose. :rollseyes)
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noorahmad
06-11-2009, 11:29 AM
well, that's the second article I've read where people are saying that they preferred the reign of saddam hussein. There were no rape, no illegal abuse of women under saddam, and whether you like it or not, the Saudi king is not better than Saddam, he may have not wage war unto other countries, but people practically have no liberty there,
im not talking against the shariah, but about the fact, that people are not allowed to criticize the government.
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GuestFellow
06-11-2009, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Podarok
Don't you think people should have the choice of religion and whether or not they follow Islamic laws? Obviously, because you are a Muslim, you probably think it's no big deal making others do what you feel is right, but to someone else, it is a huge deal when we are restricted by things from that with which we are not involved. Enforcing Islam (or any other religion) on people isn't the most productive thing in the world, and can be even more destructive than the crimes brought by the regulation of alcohol and drugs.

So, I respectfully disagree with you. :-[

(However, personally, I hate alcohol, so I would support its prohibition if it came to choose. :rollseyes)
In a Muslim country, you would have Islamic laws because majority of the public are Muslims. A non-Muslim are expected to follow these laws, if they wish to enter a Muslim country.

In a non-Muslim a country, a Muslim will have to follow their laws. For example, Interest/Riba is against the teachings of the Quran; however, Muslims will have to abide by their regulations.

In Iraq majority of the population were Muslims. When Alcohol and Prostitution was prohibited, this did not raise any concern. However legalizing it does create concern. Legalization of Alcohol and Prostitution had put Iraq into a position to face future problems that they are unfamiliar with.

Why did USA invade Iraq? To liberate them or turn it into a Western nation?
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Whatsthepoint
06-11-2009, 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
In a Muslim country, you would have Islamic laws because majority of the public are Muslims. A non-Muslim are expected to follow these laws, if they wish to enter a Muslim country.

In a non-Muslim a country, a Muslim will have to follow their laws. For example, Interest/Riba is against the teachings of the Quran; however, Muslims will have to abide by their regulations.

In Iraq majority of the population were Muslims. When Alcohol and Prostitution was prohibited, this did not raise any concern. However legalizing it does create concern. Legalization of Alcohol and Prostitution had put Iraq into a position to face future problems that they are unfamiliar with.

Why did USA invade Iraq? To liberate them or turn it into a Western nation?
Iraq was a secular country under Saddam, I don't think alcohol was ever banned during his reign.
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GuestFellow
06-11-2009, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Iraq was a secular country under Saddam, I don't think alcohol was ever banned during his reign.
Oh I see. What about Prostitution?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-11-2009, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Oh I see. What about Prostitution?
Probably the same. I guess it wasn't legal, but tolerated.
Reply

noorahmad
06-11-2009, 06:18 PM
if we're talking about guessing, saddam was sunni, he prohibited shia rituals of karbala etc, so if he was such a stout sunni as to ban these, why not alcohol and prostitution...
well just guessing...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-11-2009, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by noorahmad
if we're talking about guessing, saddam was sunni, he prohibited shia rituals of karbala etc, so if he was such a stout sunni as to ban these, why not alcohol and prostitution...
well just guessing...
I don't think he banned shia stuff because of his staunch sunniness.
Reply

GuestFellow
06-11-2009, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by noorahmad
if we're talking about guessing, saddam was sunni, he prohibited shia rituals of karbala etc, so if he was such a stout sunni as to ban these, why not alcohol and prostitution...
well just guessing...
Whether it was prohibited or not is not the case I believe. Since USA invaded Iraq, things have gotten worse.
Reply

noorahmad
06-11-2009, 06:30 PM
well, thats the point of the thread
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-11-2009, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
"The gay community in Iraq is increasing despite the fear from extremists," Salahdinne Abdullah al-Rabia’a, a social worker in the capital Baghdad, told IslamOnline.net.

Contrary to reports that homosexuals are going underground, gays are reportedly gaining choices and places in the war-torn country.
Well there is some good news coming out of Iraq after all. I wonder why this isn't more widely reported? If its true its a nice increase in human rights as well as a demonstration that the society may be progressing.
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noorahmad
06-11-2009, 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Well there is some good news coming out of Iraq after all. I wonder why this isn't more widely reported? If its true its a nice increase in human rights as well as a demonstration that the society may be progressing.
excuse me, you'll fine me an extremist or you can call it whatever name you want, homos are sick, if it was something natural, the reproductive system should have been different
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north_malaysian
06-12-2009, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't think he banned shia stuff because of his staunch sunniness.
If he allowed the Ashura processions... the Shiites might demonstrate against him and supporting his enemy Khomeinei.. if he's a staunch Sunni, his wife would be wearing hijab. Kurds who are Sunnis were discriminated too... so it has nothing to do with his Sunnism...
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-12-2009, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by noorahmad
excuse me, you'll fine me an extremist or you can call it whatever name you want, homos are sick, if it was something natural, the reproductive system should have been different
Well, some folks feel the same way about muslims. Its not extremist. Its just bigotry.
Reply

GreyKode
06-12-2009, 01:48 AM
How stupid? This is what you call good news? prostitution and homosexuality.

If its true its a nice increase in human rights as well as a demonstration that the society may be progressing
This is how you interpret prostitution and alcohol to be, "increase in human rights".
Reply

GuestFellow
06-12-2009, 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
This is how you interpret prostitution and alcohol to be, "increase in human rights".
Well really, the Western government have not tackled the problem of prostitution. These women need help and the government do not offer enough support to these women. Quite sad...

It does not increase Human rights.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-12-2009, 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
How stupid? This is what you call good news? prostitution and homosexuality.



This is how you interpret prostitution and alcohol to be, "increase in human rights".
By omitting gays in your lst senence, you aknowledge that gay rights are human rights in a certain way?
Reply

GuestFellow
06-12-2009, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
By omitting gays in your lst senence, you aknowledge that gay rights are human rights in a certain way?
Well not in Islamic countries. They consider Homosexuality as an illness. Therefore, in that sense, Gays are not granted Human rights. Whatever the Western countries do, does not mean other countries have to abide by their laws.

Gay couples are only punished if they commit the act of Sodomy/sexual activity in public. The same goes for Heterosexual couples if they commit these acts in public.

What goes on in their private lives is none of the Islamic government concern. Even if it were, it would be difficult to be enforced.
Reply

Zafran
06-12-2009, 01:53 PM
If homosexulaity is human rights then what about pre martial sex - Islam does not agree with both
Reply

GreyKode
06-12-2009, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Well not in Islamic countries. They consider Homosexuality as an illness. Therefore, in that sense, Gays are not granted Human rights. Whatever the Western countries do, does not mean other countries have to abide by their laws.

Gay couples are only punished if they commit the act of Sodomy/sexual activity in public. The same goes for Heterosexual couples if they commit these acts in public.

What goes on in their private lives is none of the Islamic government concern. Even if it were, it would be difficult to be enforced.
Agreed.
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noorahmad
06-12-2009, 06:30 PM
nah, homosexuality is punished by death, and it is against nature
Reply

GuestFellow
06-12-2009, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by noorahmad
nah, homosexuality is punished by death, and it is against nature
Cases of Homosexuality, that gay couples have participated in sexual activities are not always punished by death, from what I learnt how Islamic countries deal with these cases.

Some Islamic countries believe not much is achieved from death since there shall always be homosexuality. They take the rehabilitation approach. As a form of prevention.

Personally I believe in rehabilitation and second chances. For one to have a chance to ask for forgiveness.
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Pygoscelis
06-12-2009, 06:56 PM
Can you feel the love?
Reply

bil_sal
06-16-2009, 12:59 PM
I dont know if this has already been posted but there is another article on islamonline about the increase in homosexual prostitution in Iraq, check it out here
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abdullah_001
06-16-2009, 10:40 PM
Ah, the only thing that awaits us Muslims is death.
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ragdollcat1982
06-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
I love the Blame America Game...

Oh yes, because they drink, we should have never dis-placed Sadam Hussein. Next time a lunatic dictator decides to rule a country and support terrorism, let's let him stay, since, dare I say it, forbid, the people drink a beer!

Americans don't have family morals? This is new to me, I didn't know that. I guess when my family taught me to never hit a girl, always to address older people as sir/maam, and to always open the door for others, that was just something different...

Sorry I took so long to answer this thread I just started to read it. I agree Clover it seems the world wants to blame America for their problems at times and this is not just in the Mideast. Yet when they are in trouble or need aid in the aftermath of a natural disaster or whatever, who do they call for "help"? America. I personally get sick of seeing money go to feed foreign people in countires that dont want to learn how to become self sufficent they just want a handout. Yet in this country we have children and elderly people going to bed hungary. It sounds like your parents have done a good job of brining you up. I am teaching my son the same things. God forbid if he ever laid hands on a woman!! America is not a perfect country, but I would rather live here than anywhere else.
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abdullah_001
06-16-2009, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Sorry I took so long to answer this thread I just started to read it. I agree Clover it seems the world wants to blame America for their problems at times and this is not just in the Mideast. Yet when they are in trouble or need aid in the aftermath of a natural disaster or whatever, who do they call for "help"? America. I personally get sick of seeing money go to feed foreign people in countires that dont want to learn how to become self sufficent they just want a handout. Yet in this country we have children and elderly people going to bed hungary. It sounds like your parents have done a good job of brining you up. I am teaching my son the same things. God forbid if he ever laid hands on a woman!! America is not a perfect country, but I would rather live here than anywhere else.
The reason we blame America is not because we love blaming America but because the root of the problem started with America. There are corrupt leaders everywhere, just take a look at India, it is littered with corruption yet we do not see America waging a war against the leaders of India, do we?

If you get sick of money going to foreigners then you should stop sending your money to Israel before you stop sending your money anywhere else because thats where most of your money goes to.
Reply

ragdollcat1982
06-16-2009, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
The reason we blame America is not because we love blaming America but because the root of the problem started with America. There are corrupt leaders everywhere, just take a look at India, it is littered with corruption yet we do not see America waging a war against the leaders of India, do we?

If you get sick of money going to foreigners then you should stop sending your money to Israel before you stop sending your money anywhere else because thats where most of your money goes to.
"I" dont send "my" money to Israel. Sadly in America we have to pay our taxes because if we dont we go to prison and have no say how that money is delegated. We IMHO should cut off all foreign aid until every American has there basic needs met. It mostly goes to Africa . Do you have an unbiased source that says MOST of Americas money goes to Israel?
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abdullah_001
06-16-2009, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
"I" dont send "my" money to Israel. Sadly in America we have to pay our taxes because if we dont we go to prison and have no say how that money is delegated. We IMHO should cut off all foreign aid until every American has there basic needs met. It mostly goes to Africa . Do you have an unbiased source that says MOST of Americas money goes to Israel?
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf there

I just had to google it and it took two seconds.

If you don't want "your" taxes to go to Israel then stop electing stupid presidents. Last I checked America still was a republic. It's amazing how you say people should stop playing the blame game and yet blame American govt. for how the money is delegated.
Reply

ragdollcat1982
06-16-2009, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf there

I just had to google it and it took two seconds.

If you don't want "your" taxes to go to Israel then stop electing stupid presidents. Last I checked America still was a republic. It's amazing how you say people should stop playing the blame game and yet blame American govt. for how the money is delegated.

I think Obama is very intelligent even though I personally did not vote for him. The President is not elected directly by the people, but by the Electoral College that convenes in December or January after the elections. All the people vote for are the Electors. A pecularity in the American Constitution. America is not to blame for all the evils in the world, nor is Israel or any other country. Nobodys hands are clean or free of blood shed. This life is temporary I try to peacefully coexist with people no matter how much I may disagree with them. As far as tax money goes, in what country do the people have the right to say where it directly goes? We are told to pay it or go to prison for tax evasion. How wonderful it would be to have the option to say how I wanted my taxes delegated. I would ask that it go for education, health care and social programmes for the poor.
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ragdollcat1982
06-16-2009, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf there

I just had to google it and it took two seconds.
This still is only a small part of US spending. It is not MOST of our money.
Reply

abdullah_001
06-16-2009, 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I think Obama is very intelligent even though I personally did not vote for him. The President is not elected directly by the people, but by the Electoral College that convenes in December or January after the elections. All the people vote for are the Electors. A pecularity in the American Constitution. America is not to blame for all the evils in the world, nor is Israel or any other country. Nobodys hands are clean or free of blood shed. This life is temporary I try to peacefully coexist with people no matter how much I may disagree with them. As far as tax money goes, in what country do the people have the right to say where it directly goes? We are told to pay it or go to prison for tax evasion. How wonderful it would be to have the option to say how I wanted my taxes delegated. I would ask that it go for education, health care and social programmes for the poor.
No one is blaming America for all the evils in the world, just for the Alcohol and prostitution rife in Iraq.

In reality though, I think this invasion only brought out the problems that already existed in Iraq which is why I said in my earlier post, only death awaits us Muslims because we can't call anything else our own. Everything persihes.
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abdullah_001
06-16-2009, 11:44 PM
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf
http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/poli...oreign-aid.htm
http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html

There
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abdullah_001
06-16-2009, 11:54 PM
http://www.usaid.gov/policy/afr07/us...res_011008.pdf

Just to add
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Zafran
06-17-2009, 12:01 AM
Oh yes, because they drink, we should have never dis-placed Sadam Hussein. Next time a lunatic dictator decides to rule a country and support terrorism,
theres a few problems with this

1 - america supported saddam Hussien during the Iraq-Iran war, they also supplied him arms and also turned a blind eye when he was using chemical weapons in the war and against the kurds.

2 - what terrorist organisation was saddam supporting? - he wasnt supporting Al qeada just so you know - thats well known now.
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alcurad
06-17-2009, 12:06 AM
a point: no one else in the entire planet is a better ally for the Muslims generally than the US is. look at all the other 'budding' neo powers and their-potential-relationship with us and India, Russia,China and Europe all have history with us, not as a collective, but they do have bad history with us, and still do have great potential for conflict,,

and there is too much tension, religious/political for them to be our real allies, the problem is that americans are stupid, i mean really stupid, they go and wage wars against and make enemies of the worlds second largest religion/civilization, while forgetting every other civilization, yes we are weak now, but the signs are all over, a new era Is beginning, and the dictators/despots who rule us are going to have to make a choice, or they will be no more. this isn't over dramatizing, but the muslim world has wallowed too long in the dark ages and has been fermenting since the colonial era especially, all civilizations start out weak, with very strong enemies.

the point of all this? both sides need to stop and think for a bit, what's done is done, and Israel remains because of the Arabs ineptitude, it's one of the tiniest 'nations' out there, it would probably take a few hours only to completely overrun if the arabs knew how to fight wars properly,,thus it isn't the problem, the problem is america's interventionism in our affairs, and our medieval way of thinking when we deal with that interventionism.

f course in the end they will have to be faced off with too, but the end is a long time coming, and currently the other are much more dangerous, they're all so close to us, and are eager fto fill the void left after the end of the uni-polar order, and it's not going to be pretty,,

i guess we need to own channels like fox or whatever Americans watch and a couple powerful lobbies like Israel has to really affect popular opinion there..

not sure how this relates, but it does:/
Reply

Joe98
06-17-2009, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
….america supported Saddam Hussien during the Iraq-Iran war,
That’s not correct. The US position is that both regimes were bad and US wanted both sides to lose. The US wanted Iran to lose more badly than they wanted Iraq to lose. The only “support” was that US companies did business in Iraq.



Originally Posted by Zafran
they also supplied him arms …..

Wrong again. Iraq used Soviet weapons and French aircraft. Iraq never used US weapons. If you think the US supplied weapons you need to list those weapons



Originally Posted by Zafran
…turned a blind eye when he was using chemical weapons in the war and against the kurds.
Every western country condemned Iraq for using WMD against the Kurds.

Come March 2003, there was a concern that Iraq still had stockpiles of these WMDs because there was no evidence they had been destroyed. US soldiers died to save Muslim Kurds.
-
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sister herb
06-17-2009, 06:55 AM
:sl:

This discussion remains me old story of American dad telling good night story to his son. Nice little story what shows how politics of USA everytimes logically defend freedom and democracy in this world and how they chooce their friends and enemies:

http://www.myiwc.com/forums/archive/...hp/t-7288.html

Because story is quite long, I just put link to it...

May Allah safe Iraqis and every other nations from this kind of helping and friendship of America.
Reply

abdullah_001
06-17-2009, 08:52 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_...ates_relations

For those who stated USA never really supported Saddam Hussein
Reply

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