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love_quran
06-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Let's post statements agreeable to both Christians and Muslims.:D

If any Muslim or Christian disagrees with a statement, we strike it from the list OR we edit it to something agreeable.

Let me try one:

1. Jesus is in both the Quran and the Bible.


I will be keeping track of our progress, and will repost the list of agreements that have made it through the editing process. :sunny:

Let's keep this PEACEFUL!:thankyou:
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ummsara1108
06-02-2009, 02:16 AM
Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary)
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Eric H
06-02-2009, 10:00 AM
Greetings and peace be with you love_quran; thanks for starting this thread

I feel the more important things that we should be seeking agreement on are the moral issues, what does my faith inspire me to do?

Do Islam and Christianity inspire us to seek the same kind of moral good?

I feel we can agree on justice for the poor and oppressed, giving our time and money to help others.
Treating our neighbour as we want to be treated ourselves.


In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric
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glo
06-02-2009, 10:12 AM
I agree with Eric that the need to look after and care for weaker members of society is emphasised strongly in Islam and Christianity.

Another agreement between our faiths is the need to worship God, not just in prayer (although that too), but in everything we do and in the very life we lead.

peace
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love_quran
06-05-2009, 07:49 PM
OK so far we have:

1. Jesus is in both the Quran and the Bible.
2. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary
3. we should look after and care for weaker members of society
4. need to worship God
5. justice for the poor and oppressed, giving our time and money to help others.
6. Treating our neighbour as we want to be treated ourselves.
Reply

glo
06-05-2009, 07:50 PM
Jesus will return on the last day.
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جوري
06-05-2009, 07:53 PM
Jesus' return isn't to 'judge' mankind, rather establish the rightful laws of God to mankind.
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glo
06-05-2009, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Jesus' return isn't to 'judge' mankind, rather establish the rightful laws of God to mankind.
Thanks. I have amended my post. :)
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ummsara1108
06-05-2009, 10:00 PM
I believe both Islam and Christianity agree that Jesus was a very important man and he touched the lives of those ppl from all walks of life, not limited to just Islam and Christianity, most ppl believing or notbelieving have heard at least his name!!! If not also a story!!! ~GOD BLESS THE WORLD~
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Zafran
06-05-2009, 11:58 PM
Salaam

we agree on quite a bit - especially on morals - virtue and vices - there is however difference in theology and view of God and some issues.

I believe the 3 Abhrhamic faiths are very similar - its the Theology that divides us and other issues.
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Eric H
06-06-2009, 12:46 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Zafran;
we agree on quite a bit - especially on morals - virtue and vices - there is however difference in theology and view of God and some issues.
We agree there is one God.

But what is the greatest good meaning of ‘One God’

Is it a theological meaning that we all have to believe the same?

Or, does the greatest meaning of ‘One God’ have a moral meaning, we are all created by the same God and we should care about all of God’s creation. That means caring about each other morally.

In the spirit of praying to One Loving and Merciful God.

Eric
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Zafran
06-06-2009, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Zafran;


We agree there is one God.

But what is the greatest good meaning of ‘One God’


Is it a theological meaning that we all have to believe the same?

Or, does the greatest meaning of ‘One God’ have a moral meaning, we are all created by the same God and we should care about all of God’s creation. That means caring about each other morally.

In the spirit of praying to One Loving and Merciful God.

Eric
peace - One God of mankind I agree - this includes God without any partners or co equals -

This is where the differneces come from the idea of the son of God/trinty which is creating partners with God/co equals.
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Beardo
06-06-2009, 01:58 AM
I know there are punishments for fornication, etc. Though I am also aware that there are different versions of the bible, and I also heard it's been edited and modified, so I can't exactly give any backing to that statement... :S
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Grace Seeker
06-06-2009, 05:27 AM
I can't choose between the two options (of the poll). I do feel that Islam and Christianity are much closer to each other than either of them is to say Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, or animism. And they are certainly share more of a similar worldview with each other than with secular thoughts. Indeed, both even have similar struggles with nominal believers who are adherents of their respective religions in name only without being true practicioners of the faith.

This latter is especially true with regard to morals. Wtih only a few notable exceptions, I believe that the majority of moral standards of Islam are found in Christianity and vice versa. If the question had only been about morals I would have affirmed it.

However, when it comes to the way the two faiths are formed I think there are significant differences. While both believe in a personal God, the Christian faith seems focused on the nature of their being reconcilation between the individual and God as an act of God's grace toward human kind and one's faith in the availability of that grace. Whereas Islam focuses more on the obligation of obedience. For the one righteousness is a gift of God imputed on the believer, for the other righteousness is something that hangs in the balance and determined by one's own actions. This is a major dichotomy. However, it isn't that there is no common ground here, for both do expect people to do justice and love mercy and both ultimately place the final decision in the hands of a sovereign God. But the differences in approach are still significant enough that I can't say that they substantially agree with regard to faith at the same level I believe they do with regard to morals.
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Grace Seeker
06-06-2009, 05:41 AM
Originally Posted by love_quran
Ok folks lets us try to make as many statements as we can that both Christians and Muslims can agree on.:D


If any Muslim or Christian disagrees we strike it from the list OR we edit it to something agreeable. :rollseyes

Let me try one:

1. Jesus is in both the Quran and the Bible.


I will be keeping track of our progress and from time to time relisting the agreements that have made it through the process of editing etc. :sunny:

Let's keep this PEACEFUL!:thankyou:
The Quran states: "Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an Messenger of Allah and His word..." (4:171)
The Bbile states: "the one whom God has sent [Jesus Christ] speaks the words of God" (John 3:34) and "his [Jesus Christ's] name is the Word of God." (Revelation 19:13)
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Grace Seeker
06-06-2009, 05:51 AM
Originally Posted by eHafiz
I know there are punishments for fornication, etc. Though I am also aware that there are different versions of the bible, and I also heard it's been edited and modified, so I can't exactly give any backing to that statement... :S

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Colossians 3:5-6
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.

1 Corinthians 5:10
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
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Beardo
06-06-2009, 05:24 PM
Oh. Thanks.

So what's the kingdom of God? Paradise?
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Eric H
06-06-2009, 06:04 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Zafran;
One God of mankind I agree - this includes God without any partners or co equals -

This is where the differneces come from the idea of the son of God/trinty which is creating partners with God/co equals.
There is more to God than we can ever comprehend, possibly Christianity and Islam do not have a full understanding of God.

I struggle to understand why the same God would give you a sincere faith through Islam, and me a sincere faith through Christianity. In human terms this makes little sense to me.

But !

Today I heard something profound that does makes sense to me.

You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God
In the spirit of praying that all people will find salvation, despite all our differences.

Eric
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glo
06-06-2009, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Zafran;
There is more to God than we can ever comprehend, possibly Christianity and Islam do not have a full understanding of God.

Today I heard something profound that does makes sense to me.
You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God
In the spirit of praying that all people will find salvation, despite all our differences.

Eric
What a beautiful quote, Eric! And very worthy to become your signature. :)
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Eric H
06-06-2009, 07:32 PM
Greetings and peace be with you glo,
What a beautiful quote, Eric! And very worthy to become your signature.
I am not sure that I can be worthy of the quote. The quote was part of our Street Pastor training this morning, they put some challenging stuff in our path.

There will be times I shall have to keep this at the front of all my thoughts. When we come into contact with gangs, drunks, abusive people, violence and all the troubled people out on our streets at night.

In the spirit of praying for peace in our hearts

Eric
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love_quran
06-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Ok, :)let's update the list abit...and please let me know if i missed any items to be added to the list:

1. Jesus is in both the Quran and the Bible.
2. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary
3. we should look after and care for weaker members of society
4. need to worship God
5. justice for the poor and oppressed, giving our time and money to help others.
6. Treating our neighbour as we want to be treated ourselves.
7. There is one God.
8. We are all created by the same God and we should care about all of God’s creation.
9. Jesus will return on the last day.

Looks like we are making some progress:D.

Again, please let me know if u feel any corrections are needed on any of these items. (In order to help this along please use the item number(s) next to the item(s) you are referring to.)
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Muhaba
06-08-2009, 03:21 PM
I believe both Quraan and the Bible teach that God is the most just. and since God is just, He won't do anything unjust.
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Tony
06-08-2009, 03:29 PM
Adam was the first man. Forgiveness of those who wrong you is highly desirable, turn the other cheek/one who forgives recieves great reward (vengeance is Gods). Abraham offered his son for sacrifice.
The list could go on and on. Alhamdulullah
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glo
06-08-2009, 05:17 PM
God is ALMIGHTY and created EVERYTHING. :)
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Follower
06-09-2009, 12:06 PM
There is an after life in both Islam and Christianity.

Jesus was alive when He ascended to heaven.

Jesus performed miracles.
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ragdollcat1982
06-09-2009, 11:14 PM
Jesus was born of a virgin and will return again.
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Grace Seeker
06-10-2009, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by love_quran
Ok, :)let's update the list abit...and please let me know if i missed any items to be added to the list:

Again, please let me know if u feel any corrections are needed on any of these items. (In order to help this along please use the item number(s) next to the item(s) you are referring to.)
Yeah, I think you missed this one:
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The Quran states: "Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an Messenger of Allah and His word..." (4:171)
The Bbile states: "the one whom God has sent [Jesus Christ] speaks the words of God" (John 3:34) and "his [Jesus Christ's] name is the Word of God." (Revelation 19:13)
Isa is Allah's Word in both Islam and Christianity.
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love_quran
06-10-2009, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by TKTony
Adam was the first man. Forgiveness of those who wrong you is highly desirable, turn the other cheek/one who forgives recieves great reward (vengeance is Gods). Abraham offered his son for sacrifice.
The list could go on and on. Alhamdulullah

Yes the list could...and may. I look forward to more great additions to this list
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love_quran
06-10-2009, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Yeah, I think you missed this one:
Isa is Allah's Word in both Islam and Christianity.
yes, you are right about missing that , i am currrently working on an update that will include the submissions up to date, including yours.
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love_quran
06-10-2009, 03:27 PM
1. Jesus is in both the Quran and the Bible.
2. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary)
3. We should look after and care for weaker members of society
4. Need to worship God
5. Justice for the poor and oppressed, giving our time and money to help others.
6. Treating our neighbour as we want to be treated ourselves.
7. There is one God.
8. We are all created by the same God and we should care about all of God’s creation.
9. Jesus will return on the last day.
10. Jesus the son of Mary was a Messenger of Allah and His word
11. God is the most just. Since God is just, He won't do anything unjust
12. Adam was the first man.
13. Forgiveness of those who wrong you is highly desirable.
14. One who forgives receives great reward.
15. Vengeance belongs to God.
16. Abraham offered his son for sacrifice.
17. God is ALMIGHTY and created EVERYTHING.
18. There is an afterlife.
19. Jesus was alive when He ascended to heaven.
20. Jesus performed miracles.
21. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary) and will return again.
22. Isa (Jesus) is Allah's Word in both Islam and Christianity.

Great contributions every one! :awesome:

Please let me know if I missed anything.:bump1: Some contributions are being edited from one continuous statement into individual agreements to make the list easier to edit later on.:sorry:
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love_quran
06-12-2009, 03:28 PM
Just wanted to let folks know that edits ive meade to my posts up to this time have not touched the contents of the list. I consider the List we come up with together to be an important trust...please let me know if ive skipped anyone's additions or edits to the list as i amy not always have time to look through the entire thread as carefully as i would like. :sorry:


Please let me know if you feel I have, by shortening your contribution to individual list items, changed the meaning. :sorry:
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Grace Seeker
06-12-2009, 05:55 PM
I think that two more points on which Islam and Christianity agree are:

23. We are called to live a life that submitts to God's righteousness (i.e. his sovereignty and Lordship) rather than seeking after our own wants and desires in life.
24. That despite a life of obedience to God's call to do good works, one still only makes it to heaven/paradise by virtue of God's grace and not our own merit which, no matter how good, falls short of God's standard for His righteousness.
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Walter
06-13-2009, 06:12 PM
Hi Everyone:

Perhaps you could add: Jesus is the Messiah.

Regards,
Grenville
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Zafran
06-13-2009, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Everyone:

Perhaps you could add: Jesus is the Messiah.

Regards,
Grenville
salaam

Yes

peace
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Zafran
06-13-2009, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I think that two more points on which Islam and Christianity agree are:

23. We are called to live a life that submitts to God's righteousness (i.e. his sovereignty and Lordship) rather than seeking after our own wants and desires in life.
24. That despite a life of obedience to God's call to do good works, one still only makes it to heaven/paradise by virtue of God's grace and not our own merit which, no matter how good, falls short of God's standard for His righteousness.
salaam

Yes - agree

peace
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love_quran
06-15-2009, 03:45 PM
:)Here is our updated list:

1. Jesus is in both the Quran and the Bible.
2. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary
3. we should look after and care for weaker members of society
4. need to worship God
5. justice for the poor and oppressed, giving our time and money to help others.
6. Treating our neighbour as we want to be treated ourselves.
7. There is one God.
8. We are all created by the same God and we should care about all of God’s creation.
9. Jesus will return on the last day.
10. Jesus the son of Mary was a Messenger of Allah and His word
11. God is the most just. Since God is just, He won't do anything unjust
12. Adam was the first man.
13. Forgiveness of those who wrong you is highly desirable.
14. One who forgives receives great reward.
15. Vengeance belongs to God.
16. Abraham offered his son for sacrifice.
17. God is ALMIGHTY and created EVERYTHING.
18. There is an afterlife.
19. Jesus was alive when He ascended to heaven.
20. Jesus performed miracles.
21. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary) and will return again.
22. Isa (Jesus) is Allah's Word in both Islam and Christianity.

23. We are called to live a life that submitts to God's righteousness (i.e. his sovereignty and Lordship) rather than seeking after our own wants and desires in life.

24. That despite a life of obedience to God's call to do good works, one still only makes it to heaven/paradise by virtue of God's grace and not our own merit which, no matter how good, falls short of God's standard for His righteousness.

25. Jesus is the Messiah


Thanks to everyone for their continuing interest in this thread and resulting contributions. :)

Keep up the good work!
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Grace Seeker
06-15-2009, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by love_quran
:)Here is our updated list:
2. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary
9. Jesus will return on the last day.
21. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary) and will return again.

I think #21 is a redunancy of #2 & #9, and best deleted.
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Grace Seeker
06-15-2009, 11:06 PM
Jesus has the ability to offer life to the dead.

Surah 3:49 has Jesus say, "I bring the dead to life by Allah's Leave." (Mohsin Khan)

In John 11:25 Jesus says, ""I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies." And shortly after that he resurrects Lazarus from the grave.
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Grace Seeker
06-15-2009, 11:15 PM
Jesus is able to give life:

Surah 3:49 Jesus says, "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, a figure like that of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave."

John 5:21 Jesus says, "... the Son [Jesus] gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."
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love_quran
06-17-2009, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I think #21 is a redunancy of #2 & #9, and best deleted.
thank you :)i hadnt noticed that ..i will make the appropriate correction soon..It is a very good idea to make sure when we make a contribution it is not already on the list in total or in part. :bump1:
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love_quran
06-17-2009, 05:21 PM
Ok here is the new list with additions and corrections:

1. Jesus is in both the Quran and the Bible.
2. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary
3. we should look after and care for weaker members of society
4. need to worship God
5. justice for the poor and oppressed, giving our time and money to help others.
6. Treating our neighbour as we want to be treated ourselves.
7. There is one God.
8. We are all created by the same God and we should care about all of God’s creation.
9. Jesus will return on the last day.
10. Jesus the son of Mary was a Messenger of Allah and His word
11. God is the most just. Since God is just, He won't do anything unjust
12. Adam was the first man.
13. Forgiveness of those who wrong you is highly desirable.
14. One who forgives receives great reward.
15. Vengeance belongs to God.
16. Abraham offered his son for sacrifice.
17. God is ALMIGHTY and created EVERYTHING.
18. There is an afterlife.
19. Jesus was alive when He ascended to heaven.
20. Jesus performed miracles.
21. Isa (Jesus) is Allah's Word in both Islam and Christianity.

22. We are called to live a life that submitts to God's righteousness (i.e. his sovereignty and Lordship) rather than seeking after our own wants and desires in life.

23. That despite a life of obedience to God's call to do good works, one still only makes it to heaven/paradise by virtue of God's grace and not our own merit which, no matter how good, falls short of God's standard for His righteousness.

24. Jesus is the Messiah
25. Jesus has the ability to give life to whomever Allah / God Pleases


If enough folks request it I may place the updated list on the original (permalink) post as the list gets longer.
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MSN
06-17-2009, 05:31 PM
The story of Noah's Ark.
It's a bit different but both believe that it happened.
Btw is the only difference is that he sent a bird to look for a dry land?(Christians version)
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Danah
06-17-2009, 05:55 PM
No they are not

I read Genesis very carefully and found a lot of things.....starting from the beginning of creation ending with the story of Noah's Ark....I am not done yet with it
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MSN
06-17-2009, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Danah
No they are not

I read Genesis very carefully and found a lot of things.....starting from the beginning of creation ending with the story of Noah's Ark....I am not done yet with it
Would you like to share it with us??
All i know is that they also say there WAS a flood and Noah did gather all animals??
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rpwelton
06-17-2009, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Jesus is able to give life:
Correction: In Islam, the ability to give life comes from God; Jesus is just the conduit. So we would say that Jesus, through the power of God, is able to give life. Whether or not Christians agree with that statement would depend on it getting added to the list.
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Zafran
06-17-2009, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Jesus is able to give life:

Surah 3:49 Jesus says, "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, a figure like that of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave."

John 5:21 Jesus says, "... the Son [Jesus] gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."
There is a differnece between the two.
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Danah
06-17-2009, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by MSN
Would you like to share it with us??
All i know is that they also say there WAS a flood and Noah did gather all animals??
there is some similarity but less than what we call "the majority"

for example, at the beginning of the book of Genesis, the bible stated that Eve was the one who seduced Adam to eat from the Tree, hence held the women of earth that sin

While in Quran, both Eve and Adam was holding the responsibility for eating from the tree
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Follower
06-17-2009, 08:48 PM
Danah actually Adam sinned too-

Genesis 3
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

So we can add to the list that Islam and Christianity agree that both Adam and Eve sinned.
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GreyKode
06-17-2009, 09:28 PM
Jesus(pbuh) ate, slept and prayed.
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Tony
06-17-2009, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
Jesus(pbuh) ate, slept and prayed.
and wept,not the attributes of a God methinks
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Danah
06-17-2009, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
Danah actually Adam sinned too-

Genesis 3
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
So we can add to the list that Islam and Christianity agree that both Adam and Eve sinned.
Not really!

I always hear the Christians holding the woman the responsibility of eating from the tree:

check the verse before the one you quoted:

11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?" 12 Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."
see how Adam is responding to God by holding Eve the responsibility of eating the tree.


Then lets look at what God according to Bible punish both man and woman for that in the same chapter:

check the punishment of the woman:
16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

The pain and sorrow that woman goes through in birth in Islam is something she get a great reward for. Its not considered as a "punishment" because Allah had forgiven that old sin when they (Adam & Eve) repented and asked for forgiveness.

I think that this is one of the main difference between the Quran and Bible: "the forgiven sin"
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Follower
06-17-2009, 11:08 PM
Aren't we looking for similarities in this thread?

Those Christians are wrong as you can see by the verses I quoted.

The sins of the Christian are forgiven and the debt is paid. Not sure how we can make that agree.

How about repentance is accepted by GOD in both Islam and Christianity.
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جوري
06-17-2009, 11:12 PM
why repent when your god ate your sins in advance?
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Danah
06-17-2009, 11:33 PM
^ I was answering what MSN asked me to do when asked me to share what my experience in reading Genesis...I know we are looking for similarities here
The sins of the Christian are forgiven and the debt is paid. Not sure how we can make that agree.
I wish we can elaborate about the sin issue "I am very interested on that", but I think this will make the thread goes very far to its original purpose. I think I will start a thread for that issue in the very near future

How about repentance is accepted by GOD in both Islam and Christianity.
In Islam, it depend on the pure intent of the one who wish to repent and ask for forgiveness from Allah.

Regard Christianity: what kind of "sin" you are talking about? The sin that some Christians still think that they born with?
or the sin that a man can commit in his/her daily life? such as hurting people or such....etc
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Follower
06-17-2009, 11:41 PM
In Islam, it depend on the pure intent of the one who wish to repent and ask for forgiveness from Allah.

Sincerity- yes

Regard Christianity: what kind of "sin" you are talking about? The sin that some Christians still think that they born with?
or the sin that a man can commit in his/her daily life?


All and any sin repented sincerely.

But of course we don't agree on the debt paid part. In Islam you must repay the debt with good deeds. As Christians we are expected to do good deeds but know that we can never do enough to measure up to what is needed.

Yes I am afraid it would take us off topic- I am really good at that!!
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Grace Seeker
06-18-2009, 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by TKTony
and wept,not the attributes of a God methinks
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
why repent when your god ate your sins in advance?
Careful. We are looking for argeement here. Too much commentary could disrupt this thread.
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Grace Seeker
06-18-2009, 05:49 AM
Originally Posted by Danah
Not really!

I always hear the Christians holding the woman the responsibility of eating from the tree:
Follower is correct. Christianity does hold both Adam and Eve jointly responsible. While you may not pick this up from the Genesis account, reading the NT makes that part clear:

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
So, I think this is something on which Christianity and Islam agree, unless Islam doesn't really think there was a sin.
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Grace Seeker
06-18-2009, 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by rpwelton
Correction: In Islam, the ability to give life comes from God; Jesus is just the conduit. So we would say that Jesus, through the power of God, is able to give life. Whether or not Christians agree with that statement would depend on it getting added to the list.
I could live with that modification.
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Tony
06-18-2009, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Careful. We are looking for argeement here. Too much commentary could disrupt this thread.
Yes urright, sorry:)
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Grace Seeker
06-19-2009, 09:56 AM
Many of our points of agreement have been with regard to Jesus. I find that interesting. There are also many similar expectations with regard to practicioners of both Islam and Christianty. For instance, I believe it has already been mentioned about the expectations of living righteously.

How about that both religions understand themselves as being directed to take and share their message with all of the world?

I don't know the verse in Islam (surely someone else can give it), but in the Christian faith there are several: Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8. So both Islam and Christianity are known as proselytizing religions.
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lifeguard
06-20-2009, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Jesus will return on the last day.
Does Christianty say Jesus will return on the last day??

Cuz i believe Muslims believe that he would be back a few years before the end...enlighten me if i'm wrong..
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David Gould
06-21-2009, 12:23 AM
You touch upon the Book of Revelation placed at the end of the Christian Bible about which much debate was had in the early days as to whether it was "inspired to the same degree" as other books that were in the canon of Christian Scripture. Revelation does however suggest that although it appears as several different accounts of eschatology (the science of the end times) there is a clear idea that Jesus will return and usher in a new age before the end of time itself. Some of the symbolism of this book has defeated scholars through the ages and it still in my mind remains a book of problems.

Another little nugget to think about is that the historic figure of Jesus Christ was not called by that name at all. Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua and Christ comes from the Greek Christos meaning Messiah...so he should really be known as Joshua the Messiah. (incidently Christianity is spelt wrong in the title to this thread)

Lastly the point I would like to say about agreement between our faiths which are many is that:-
When we die we all face the Judgement of God.
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AntiKarateKid
06-21-2009, 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by David Gould
You touch upon the Book of Revelation placed at the end of the Christian Bible about which much debate was had in the early days as to whether it was "inspired to the same degree" as other books that were in the canon of Christian Scripture. Revelation does however suggest that although it appears as several different accounts of eschatology (the science of the end times) there is a clear idea that Jesus will return and usher in a new age before the end of time itself. Some of the symbolism of this book has defeated scholars through the ages and it still in my mind remains a book of problems.

Another little nugget to think about is that the historic figure of Jesus Christ was not called by that name at all. Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua and Christ comes from the Greek Christos meaning Messiah...so he should really be known as Joshua the Messiah. (incidently Christianity is spelt wrong in the title to this thread)

Lastly the point I would like to say about agreement between our faiths which are many is that:-
When we die we all face the Judgement of God.
There are many christs in the Bible. The title is not exclusive to Jesus.
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David Gould
06-21-2009, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
There are many christs in the Bible. The title is not exclusive to Jesus.
I though that was my point exactly. The word Christ is from the Greek Christos meaning 'a messiah'. Any person in the historical texts who saved their people was known as a messiah. Joshua (Jesus) was called a Messiah by John the Baptist...before that he would have been know as Joshua son of Joseph...or if he followed his father's profession simply as Joshua Carpenter.

Did I miss it on your list, but don't both Muslims and Christians believe that man is unique in that he has a soul that survives earthly death; in others words is immortal.
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Zafran
06-21-2009, 06:14 PM
[QUOTE]Did I miss it on your list, but don't both Muslims and Christians believe that man is unique in that he has a soul that survives earthly death; in others words is immortal.[/QUOTE]


Jesus pbuh is a normal man who will die in the future - so no human is immortal.
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Grace Seeker
06-21-2009, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by lifeguard
Does Christianty say Jesus will return on the last day??

Cuz i believe Muslims believe that he would be back a few years before the end...enlighten me if i'm wrong..
Not THE last day, but in the last days.
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Grace Seeker
06-21-2009, 07:12 PM
[QUOTE=Zafran;1172564]
Jesus pbuh is a normal man who will die in the future - so no human is immortal.
Without regard to the divinity/humanity of Jesus, when Christians speak of humans being immortal, we don't mean that we don't die, but that after physical death we still continue to live as spiritual beings and that one then lives in eternal torments apart from God (spiritual death) or eternal joy in fellowship with God (eternal life). Either way then we are immortal.

Is not Islam similar in its beliefs regarding the continuation of our spiritual existence after our physical death.

Futher, Christianity also believes that with the coming of the Messiah at (or near) the end of time, that there is a physical resurrection of the righteous to new life. How close is that to what Islam beleives?
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Zafran
06-21-2009, 09:20 PM
Futher, Christianity also believes that with the coming of the Messiah at (or near) the end of time, that there is a physical resurrection of the righteous to new life. How close is that to what Islam beleives?
Its a physical ressurection of everybody - thats after the world has ended - then everybody is ressurected and Judged by Allah swt - known as the day of Ressurection.
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love_quran
06-22-2009, 03:51 PM
I see alot of great discussion:happy: on Noah as well as Jesus's role at the end times (if I may be allowed to call it as such).:) Can we come to some consensus as to how these topics can be stated for the list?

:hmm: Also, if i mispelled "Christianity" can you please give me the correct spelling? :muddlehea

Thank you all for good discussion and contributions to the list!:happy:


PS: I should be doing a post of the updated list on wednesday. (EST) Please let me know if you would like me to make add the updated list to the originating post of this thread. :muddlehea
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Grace Seeker
06-23-2009, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by love_quran
:hmm: Also, if i mispelled "Christianity" can you please give me the correct spelling? :muddlehea

You have it spelled correctly when you typed it in this post. It is in the title to the thread that an extra unnecessary "n" has been added before the final "t".
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love_quran
06-24-2009, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You have it spelled correctly when you typed it in this post. It is in the title to the thread that an extra unnecessary "n" has been added before the final "t".
Whoa talk about learning better just how imperfect oneself is ! :D

My deepest apologies for the error...If it were possible for me to correct the spelling i certainly would. But, it seems, even in edit mode, it is not an option. I hope this has not offended away anyone from participation in making the list.
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love_quran
06-24-2009, 04:01 PM
Ok given there is no consensus:? at this time on the Issues of Jesus at the "end times" and Noah:bump1: I will not be making an update on the list as yet.

I'll check back next week to see how things are progressing:muddlehea (i use the local library computers 2 days a week most weeks so that would normally be when i'll be back here anyway).
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Woodrow
06-25-2009, 03:18 AM
While there are many similarities between Christianity and Islam there is one insurmountable difference and that is the nature of Prophet Isa(as).

For the sake of humanity and peaceful coexistence we need to focus on that if both of us lived as we profess our perspective religions tell us too, blood battles would be an impossibility between us. We are in nearly 100% agreement as to what is sinful.

The fact is we both have people that are members of our faiths in name only and do not follow the teachings of either of us. For Centuries Christians and Muslims have co-existed in Peace we need to look back and see why we got along in the past and return to the ways we should treat each other.
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Beardo
06-25-2009, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
While there are many similarities between Christianity and Islam there is one insurmountable difference and that is the nature of Prophet Isa(as).

For the sake of humanity and peaceful coexistence we need to focus on that if both of us lived as we profess our perspective religions tell us too, blood battles would be an impossibility between us. We are in nearly 100% agreement as to what is sinful.

The fact is we both have people that are members of our faiths in name only and do not follow the teachings of either of us. For Centuries Christians and Muslims have co-existed in Peace we need to look back and see why we got along in the past and return to the ways we should treat each other.

Never thought of it that way. But where in history did exactly this change? Was it 9/11 or did changes gradually take place before that?

I'm not sure if we are "only" members of own faiths. However, we should learn to respect each other's feelings and understanding. I believe the biggest problem is judging not by the cover, but by the headlines of the news.

But I do agree, that to my limited knowledge, that our rulings are very much similar.
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Grace Seeker
06-25-2009, 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by eHafiz
Never thought of it that way. But where in history did exactly this change? Was it 9/11 or did changes gradually take place before that?
No. It was not 9/11. That was at best a sympton of the problem that already existed and the horrible state it had once again reached in the present. But while there have been many centuries of peaceful co-existence I believe the issues go back to even before the crusades. Perhaps all the way back to the beginning. They rise up for a time and then disappear again. But as long as both groups believe that they exclusively have THE TRUTH and that all others are in error, and then that belief is coupled with a strong desire to prosleytize and to do so with intolerance of others that are different, there is going to be conflict between the two.
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glo
06-25-2009, 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But as long as both groups believe that they exclusively have THE TRUTH and that all others are in error, and then that belief is coupled with a strong desire to proselytize and to do so with intolerance of others that are different, there is going to be conflict between the two.
I agree.
And that's evident even on a very small scale in a forum such as this.

Let's roll up our sleeves (if only to our elbows) - there's work to be done! :)
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Grace Seeker
06-25-2009, 06:57 AM
We have been focusing on areas of agreement, maybe we need to recognize not all of the things in which Islam and Christianity agree are necessarily good. While it may not be that our religions promote violence, I think we have to admit that there are many violent people who at least make use of the name of both of our religions for their own violent purposes. And though we may wish to say that they don't actually represent the truth faith, they get far too much tacit support from those who would consider themselves true followers. Maybe we need to admit that another thing that Muslims and Christians have in common are groups of people within their respective communities that are intolerant of those who differ from them and erroneously justify their intolerance based on an inappropriate view of their own righteousness.

Maybe we need to agree that people who say "It's my way or the highway." are poor representatives of what it means to be either a Muslim or a Christian?
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love_quran
06-25-2009, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
We have been focusing on areas of agreement, maybe we need to recognize not all of the things in which Islam and Christianity agree are necessarily good. While it may not be that our religions promote violence, I think we have to admit that there are many violent people who at least make use of the name of both of our religions for their own violent purposes. And though we may wish to say that they don't actually represent the truth faith, they get far too much tacit support from those who would consider themselves true followers. Maybe we need to admit that another thing that Muslims and Christians have in common are groups of people within their respective communities that are intolerant of those who differ from them and erroneously justify their intolerance based on an inappropriate view of their own righteousness.

Maybe we need to agree that people who say "It's my way or the highway." are poor representatives of what it means to be either a Muslim or a Christian?

All this happen in the last 2.5 days??? I hope we arent getting to horribly off-track here. Maybe someone can contribute an item to list.

As to the "true faith concept". I cannot see _anyone_ believing Allah/God just sets things in motion (creation), and doent reveal some form of _Authentic_, _Guiding_ path/deen that can be, or should be able to be differentiated from other less-authentic or corrupted or outright false religions.

In all the religious wanderings i have had, ive yet to meet one religious person that thought God was so careless, that He wouldnt lovingly guide his Creatures to at least a "Better" way.

Anyway. :exhausted.let's please get back to the list in general and keep on with what is Peaceful and Unifying :happy:
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David Gould
06-26-2009, 12:39 AM
Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from error:
Whoever rejects evil and believes in God
has grasped the most trustworthy handhold,
that never breaks.
Qur’an Surah 2 Ayat 256

This verse coming just after the famous Kursi verse (throne in Arabic) speaks to me as a Christian and as a person. I find so often when studying the Holy Qur'an that there are beautiful passages that I as a believer can really resonate with. The simple fact is that there is only one God so when He inspires man to speak His words we should not be surprised to find they hold the same message. Personally I have a great love of Scripture and find the same God within the pages.

Woodrow could you tell me more about the problem you suggest we have over Isaac...is this the slight difference between Jewish accounts and the Qur'an as to which son was to be sacrificed? I believe that the same problem is covered by the Torah...but it will need someone better versed than I to dig out the reference.

Muslim Scholars in the past have contributed so much to the knowledge and philosophy of the world...a fact recognised in the 14th century when there was more cross pollination of ideas and more scholarly debate between Christians and Islam. Modern maths itself came from Arabic scholarship. But somehow knowledge can stagnate and not move forward especially if we distrust each other so much as has been suggested that some do.

This forum is a wonderful example of how we can learn from each other if we are open to the ideas of others. Also I feel it is wonderful to share spirituality with members of other faiths even if on occasions it is a humbling experience.
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Woodrow
06-26-2009, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by David Gould
Woodrow could you tell me more about the problem you suggest we have over Isaac...is this the slight difference between Jewish accounts and the Qur'an as to which son was to be sacrificed? I believe that the same problem is covered by the Torah...but it will need someone better versed than I to dig out the reference.
Peace David, good to see you again. I seldom get over to Care2 anymore and have not been here very often lately.

If you are refering to my last post here I was speaking of Isa(as) known to you as Jesus(as). We do respect him highly and see him as one the most beloved of Prophets. We do not share the concept of him being God(swt) as seen by Christians.

In regards to Isaac(as) I do not have the Judaic views off hand, but it does seem that some of the Jews at one time did attribute the same concept of divinity to Isaac. to some extent this has been mentioned in the Ahadith and the Qur'an.
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Sarada
07-02-2009, 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
No. ... as long as both groups believe that they exclusively have THE TRUTH and that all others are in error, and then that belief is coupled with a strong desire to prosleytize and to do so with intolerance of others that are different, there is going to be conflict between the two.


Well said, GraceSeeker!
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love_quran
07-06-2009, 02:48 PM
dont tell me i am going to have to ask this thread to be closed.....
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David Gould
07-06-2009, 11:07 PM
Why try to close the only attempt to bring understanding of the very things that unite us? It is time that those that have faith to combine in this world against the apathy of disbelief, the lies of atheism and the falsehood of materialism. The central message of both Islam and Christianity is that God has laid down a code by which we are to live...and by following that code we draw closer to Him that built the universe. Now the minutae of these codes may differ but in essence they say the same thing about respecting each other, respecting life, honouring God and His laws, repenting of our sin and seeking forgiveness for past errors and trying to lead new lives based upon His codes of morals, expectations and law.

So come on let us instead of seeking to close down this thread spread our wings of faith and explore each others faith and find that the same God talks to us both...well He would wouldn't He...seeing as there is only one God revealed through his messengers and prophets.
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GreyKode
07-06-2009, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by David Gould
Why try to close the only attempt to bring understanding of the very things that unite us? It is time that those that have faith to combine in this world against the apathy of disbelief, the lies of atheism and the falsehood of materialism. The central message of both Islam and Christianity is that God has laid down a code by which we are to live...and by following that code we draw closer to Him that built the universe. Now the minutae of these codes may differ but in essence they say the same thing about respecting each other, respecting life, honouring God and His laws, repenting of our sin and seeking forgiveness for past errors and trying to lead new lives based upon His codes of morals, expectations and law.

So come on let us instead of seeking to close down this thread spread our wings of faith and explore each others faith and find that the same God talks to us both...well He would wouldn't He...seeing as there is only one God revealed through his messengers and prophets.
Salam David, I agree very much with what you said.:thumbs_up:thumbs_up
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love_quran
07-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Fine then at least make your contributions in list form. I prefer to keep things simple so they dont end up in difficulties later on....give me a bit and i will put up an updated list.
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love_quran
07-08-2009, 03:16 PM
1. Jesus is in both the Quran and the Bible.
2. Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary
3. we should look after and care for weaker members of society
4. need to worship God
5. justice for the poor and oppressed, giving our time and money to help others.
6. Treating our neighbour as we want to be treated ourselves.
7. There is one God.
8. We are all created by the same God and we should care about all of God’s creation.
9. Jesus will return on the last day.
10. Jesus the son of Mary was a Messenger of Allah and His word
11. God is the most just. Since God is just, He won't do anything unjust
12. Adam was the first man.
13. Forgiveness of those who wrong you is highly desirable.
14. One who forgives receives great reward.
15. Vengeance belongs to God.
16. Abraham offered his son for sacrifice.
17. God is ALMIGHTY and created EVERYTHING.
18. There is an afterlife.
19. Jesus was alive when He ascended to heaven.
20. Jesus performed miracles.
21. Isa (Jesus) is Allah's Word in both Islam and Christianity.
22. We are called to live a life that submitts to God's righteousness (i.e. his sovereignty and Lordship) rather than seeking after our own wants and desires in life.

23. That despite a life of obedience to God's call to do good works, one still only makes it to heaven/paradise by virtue of God's grace and not our own merit which, no matter how good, falls short of God's standard for His righteousness.

24. Jesus is the Messiah
25. Jesus has the ability to give life to whomever Allah / God Pleases

I dont know that anyone has come up any other items for the list on which there is consensus. David, I like the points you have brought up:), but i am not sure how they can be enumerated seperate from one another :-[(perhaps my editing skills are less than adequate for the taskimsad).

I really dont want to close the thread to be quite honest:)...i just dont want it to get off topic or run away from the main point.:) Simply stated concepts that are common to Islam and Christianity seem to me an easy way to keep the communication flowing without the trap of semantics getting in the way. :)
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Zafran
07-09-2009, 01:11 AM
Abhrham, Moses and Noah pbut were Great prophets.
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Grace Seeker
07-12-2009, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Abhrham, Moses and Noah pbut were Great prophets.
While God no doubt spoke to them, Christians don't generally include either Abraham or Noah in the list of Prophets as they aren't seen as having a message that was meant to be delivered to other people.
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rpwelton
07-12-2009, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
While God no doubt spoke to them, Christians don't generally include either Abraham or Noah in the list of Prophets as they aren't seen as having a message that was meant to be delivered to other people.
What is the requirement for Prophethood in Christianity?
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Grace Seeker
07-12-2009, 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by rpwelton
What is the requirement for Prophethood in Christianity?
Good question. Not sure that I can answer that, for I'm not sure that we have an agreed upon standard. You see, it isn't a question we ask much among ourselves.

The New Westminster Dictionary of the Bible has a 3 1/2 page article under the heading "prophet". It's opening sentence, presumably defining the term, reads thusly:
An authoritative teacher of God's will; cf. the expression, "Thus saith the Lord."
Elsewhere in the article it states:
Speaking of the order of prophets, God promised to raise them up from among the chosen people, qualify them by putting his words into their mouths, enable them to speak all that he commanded them, and maintain the authority of his word which they should speak (Deut. 18:18-19). Every prophet of God, and preeminently Christ, was like Moses (Deut. 18:18; Acts 3:22-23), in similarity of enduement, of doctrine, of attitude toward the law, of didactic work.....

Words are given to the prophet by God, and the prophet cannot resist the Spirit (Jer. 20:7-9; Amos 3:3-8, cf. Balaam, Num. chs. 22 to 24). The words are sent by his Spirit to the prophets, are given to be taught to the people, and have been accredited in the past by their fulfillment (Zech. 1:6; 7:12; also Neh. 9:30). The prophets did not inherit the office, nor receive it by human appointment, but were chosen, prepared, and called of God....

The English word is derived from the Gr. prophetes. In classical Greek, mantis is the ecstatic announcer of oracles, and prophetes is their sober-minded interpreter, who makes the dreams, visions, or enigmatic utterances of the frenzied mantis intelligible. The prophetes, accordingly, is not a predictor, but one who speaks forth that which he has received from the divine Spirit. The prefix pro is not temporal. The prophet speaks for, or in behalf of, another; he is the mouthpiece of the spokesperson of God. He is a forthteller rather than a foretellr.

The Hebrew word nabi, which is translated "prophet," means one who announces. It seems also to have been used in a comprehensive sense. In the Hebrew Scriptures Abraham is called a prophet* (Gen. 20:7). Between him and God there was a direct personal intercourse, with him was the secret of the Lord, to him God revealed himself and his purposes, he was able to teach his descendants the true knowledge of God, and he had power of intercession with God.... The nabi, or propeht, was a person qualified by God to be his spokesman to men. And this is the fundamental idea which underlies the term as used in Deut. 18:18. The prophet was a part of his environment, used the language of his time, and prophesied in the contemporary historical situation.
Other things mentioned in the article include possessing prophet vision (being a seer), having a ministry of teaching, being an ambassador of God to the people, to make known the secret counsel of God, and to announce God's purposes.



*Which shows just how little "prophethood," as an office, is discussed among Christians that I didn't even remember this verse. When I think of prophets, I think of the books of the prophets that are found in the scriptures:Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi. And then there are some others beyond that whose lives and ministries are recorded elsewhere in the scriptures, people like: Elijah, Elisha, Balaam, Samuel, Nathan, and John the Baptist. But there are many others: not just Moses, but also his sister Miriam, Joseph (Jacob's son), and others like Abraham who were in fact prophets, but that I think of primarily in other ways.

Because the basic idea behind being a prophet is one who speaks forth on God's behalf, Christians generally do not believe that prophethood is something that past. The NT spoke of there continuing to be prophets as a gift to the church, and many a Christian preacher probably sees themselves in someway being utilized by God in this way every time he/she stands in the pulpit. Though that would not imply that they all see themselves as speaking free from error.
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love_quran
07-13-2009, 03:25 PM
Grace Seeker,

Ok, if you do not agree that Abhraham, Moses and Noah were prophets. then what would you say they are...Messengers or Men of God (what would you mean by that anyhow?) or what?
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rpwelton
07-13-2009, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Good question. Not sure that I can answer that, for I'm not sure that we have an agreed upon standard. You see, it isn't a question we ask much among ourselves.

Because the basic idea behind being a prophet is one who speaks forth on God's behalf, Christians generally do not believe that prophethood is something that past. The NT spoke of there continuing to be prophets as a gift to the church, and many a Christian preacher probably sees themselves in someway being utilized by God in this way every time he/she stands in the pulpit. Though that would not imply that they all see themselves as speaking free from error.
What are the qualifications for a modern day prophet? I would assume he would have to bring some sort of miracles. Are there actually examples of this in Christian history (or even modern history)?
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glo
07-13-2009, 05:46 PM
Can I ask that we take the discussion on prophets to a new thread?
It's very interesting, but it doesn't seem to belong into this thread ... Perhaps the mods can create a new thread and move the relevant posts?

Thank you :)
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rpwelton
07-13-2009, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Can I ask that we take the discussion on prophets to a new thread?
It's very interesting, but it doesn't seem to belong into this thread ... Perhaps the mods can create a new thread and move the relevant posts?

Thank you :)
I was thinking the same thing. A new thread would be great!
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love_quran
07-15-2009, 03:12 PM
I look forward to learning what answers are arrived at with the creation of a new thread on that topic.:D:)
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Grace Seeker
07-15-2009, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by love_quran
Grace Seeker,

Ok, if you do not agree that Abhraham, Moses and Noah were prophets. then what would you say they are...Messengers or Men of God (what would you mean by that anyhow?) or what?

I didn't say I disagreed. I just said that Christians don't generally include them in the lists of prophets. Actually I would agree that Abraham and Moses are prophets. But not Noah. Noah was just a righteous man of God and that is all that we really know to say about him. Anything else would require reading into the text -- which plenty of people (Christians and non-Christian alike) have done over the years, but that doesn't mean that we too should continue to do so ourselves.
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love_quran
07-20-2009, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I didn't say I disagreed. I just said that Christians don't generally include them in the lists of prophets. Actually I would agree that Abraham and Moses are prophets. But not Noah. Noah was just a righteous man of God and that is all that we really know to say about him. Anything else would require reading into the text -- which plenty of people (Christians and non-Christian alike) have done over the years, but that doesn't mean that we too should continue to do so ourselves.
Ahh, thank you. Now i understand your meaning :)
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Basit
07-26-2009, 04:28 PM
Al-Salam Alaykum!

But God(swt) has spoke to Noah(puh) and revealed him his plan isn't it? thats why Nuh(puh) prepared the ship and warned his poeple about the great flood???
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Basit
07-26-2009, 04:35 PM
Sorry slip of a faulty mind i dont know why i typed "Nuh" sorry
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Grace Seeker
07-27-2009, 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by Basit
Al-Salam Alaykum!

But God(swt) has spoke to Noah(puh) and revealed him his plan isn't it? thats why Nuh(puh) prepared the ship and warned his poeple about the great flood???

God revealed his plan to Noah, but no where in the Bible does it say that God asked Noah to warn the people about the coming flood nor does it appear therein that Noah ever attempted to do so on his own. He just built the boat, got the designated animals and his family on board. And God shut the door. Then the rains fell.

In fact, according to Genesis, it was God's intent to destroy the people, so O would suspect that at least in the Biblical version of this event that it is most likely that there was neither effort nor desire to warn the people of their coming destruction. So, no need for Noah to be a prophet if he has no message for anyone in this telling of the story.
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Basit
07-27-2009, 04:08 PM
God revealed his plan to Noah, but no where in the Bible does it say that God asked Noah to warn the people about the coming flood nor does it appear therein that Noah ever attempted to do so on his own. He just built the boat, got the designated animals and his family on board. And God shut the door. Then the rains fell.
Al-Salam Alaykum,

Well then, the prophethood of Hud(puh) is a disagreement between our religions. Because in Islam he is a prophet. As stated in a surah named after him:

Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem
Surah Hud [11:25]
And we had certainly sent Noah to his people,[saying] "Indeed, I am to you a clear warner".


If in the christian bible it did'nt say that he did works of a prophet, then this would be a disagreement between our religion, imho.


And Allah, subhana wa taala, know best.

Salam!
Reply

Getado
07-28-2009, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Basit
Al-Salam Alaykum,

Well then, the prophethood of Hud(puh) is a disagreement between our religions. Because in Islam he is a prophet. As stated in a surah named after him:

Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem
Surah Hud [11:25]
And we had certainly sent Noah to his people,[saying] "Indeed, I am to you a clear warner".


If in the christian bible it did'nt say that he did works of a prophet, then this would be a disagreement between our religion, imho.


And Allah, subhana wa taala, know best.

Salam!
Its not just a matter of agreement and disagreement ,the problem is bigger than that ,the quran describes Noah as one of the GREATEST prophets of Allah along with Abraham,Moses Jesus and Muhammad PBUT ,whereas the bible (OT) describes Noah as ****************** .

*= that the biblical words is too detestable to be posted here ,Muslims who would read for the first time ,might not sleep well tonight.

Says what ! "Noah is not a Prophet" ,why? ,"because the bible says so"

The bible is Anti-God,anti-prophets,and anti-moralities .Yes it has many good verses in it ,but then again ,poison in the honey ?
Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say,We are wise,
and the law (Torah) of the LORD is with us'?
But, behold, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie."
Its the same false pens of the Jews that watered the prophethood of prophets that came before Abraham,as well as the prophethood of Ishmael ,JUST to say in another word,"God sent no prophet but from the children of Jacob (ISRAEL) ONLY" .

In vain .

"Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith."
Quran 2:90
Reply

Basit
07-28-2009, 03:59 PM
Al-Salam Alaykum,

The bible is Anti-God,anti-prophets,and anti-moralities .Yes it has many good verses in it ,but then again ,poison in the honey ?
Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say,We are wise,
and the law (Torah) of the LORD is with us'?
But, behold, the false pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie."
Its the same false pens of the Jews that watered the prophethood of prophets that came before Abraham,as well as the prophethood of Ishmael ,JUST to say in another word,"God sent no prophet but from the children of Jacob (ISRAEL) ONLY" .
I think this is one point which Islam and Christianity agrees. Is it?

Salam!
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-28-2009, 06:25 PM
No, Christianity would find it hard to affirm the idea that the Bible is "Anti-God,anti-prophets,and anti-moralities."

We probably would agree that some of the leaders of the nation of Israel were this way, at least on occassion. Would Islam agree with Christianity that there is no mere human being who is completely righteous and does not fall short of the glory of God?
Reply

Basit
07-30-2009, 07:05 PM
Al-Salam Alaykum!

May Allah, subhanah wa taala, forgive me if i am wrong.

I never knew somebody in the entire history that had been COMPLETELY righteous. Ive always knew the Pprophets(pbut) are the most righteous people at their time but, i think, they also commited mistakes which some are unintended.

examples of the mistakes i read from books:

Noah(puh) is drunkard at his time and sometimes go naked when drunk, which made his younger son commit a sin which will be a punishment for his brethen and nation in the future. Jesus(puh) at his youth left his mother when he roamed around and talked with other poeple which made her mother worry and looked for him. Muhammad Mustafa(pbuh) made a mistake when he first recited Surah Al-Najm but he was corrected that same day by the Angel Gabriel.

i cannot disclose the fact that there could be a man who could have lived a completely righteous life. there could be, but i never knew one. Regarding the second one, if somebody was never short of the glory of God(swt)? I believe each one of us lives a life of trials, as this life here on earth is a test, a test of our patience if we could live according to his will and orders, a test if we could endure the hardships of life, a test in which the result will be known at the day of judgment.

And Allah, subhanah wa taala, knows best.

Salam!
Reply

IAmZamzam
07-30-2009, 07:16 PM
Once again I find an article of mine answers the issue somewhat.
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-30-2009, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Once again I find an article of mine answers the issue somewhat.
What is the issue that you believe you've answered and how does it relate to this thread?
Reply

IAmZamzam
07-30-2009, 09:49 PM
The article shows that all the major teachings of Jesus (P) in the Gospels throughout the Sermon on the Mount and in some other places too are also in the Koran, and his teachings in the Koran in the Gospels, and that the Koran leaves out some highly questionable behavior attributed to him in the Gospels. I thought that connected. If I have misunderstood the thread topic then I apologize. It's a rather long thread and I didn't bother to read all the preceding posts.
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-30-2009, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
The article shows that all the major teachings of Jesus (P) in the Gospels throughout the Sermon on the Mount and in some other places too are also in the Koran, and his teachings in the Koran in the Gospels, and that the Koran leaves out some highly questionable behavior attributed to him in the Gospels. I thought that connected. If I have misunderstood the thread topic then I apologize. It's a rather long thread and I didn't bother to read all the preceding posts.

Ah, so you are suggesting that Islam and Christianity agree on what you understand to be the major teachings of Jesus, especially those outlined in the Sermon on the Mount. Quite probably. Maybe you could list some of the specific teachings you are thinking of as I don't know the Qur'an well enough to know what it says that Jesus taught. (I know your article listed some. However other than "love your enemies", I don't see those being what I as a Christian would have identified as being the major teachings of Jesus. But maybe you could better connect some of the dots for me.)
Reply

jeff d
07-30-2009, 11:58 PM
Wow! This is a great thread! We have so much in common!! The sad thing is that many people here in the usa will never understand this due to pre informed opinions....prejudice you could say. The media here almost always makes a bad word of Islam, which I find to be sickening. Anyways, here's my addition to the post:

Both Muslims and Christians have a lineage in common....Abraham!!!
Praise be to Allah! (God) my he bless all his children, Muslim and Christians alike!!

Sincerely, Rev. Jeff Dishong
Reply

Follower
07-31-2009, 02:06 PM
Basit said- "I never knew somebody in the entire history that had been COMPLETELY righteous. Ive always knew the Pprophets(pbut) are the most righteous people at their time but, i think, they also commited mistakes which some are unintended."

I have never heard this from a muslim before- my understanding was that the prophets in Islam were perfect.
Reply

IAmZamzam
07-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Did you even read the article, Grace Seeker? Because it doesn't just list "some", it goes through the whole Sermon on the Mount as well as several places elsewhere in the Gospels, and the whole of Jesus's (P) teachings in the Koran being in the Gospels as well. The only things different in the plethora of examples I list are variations in rules regarding divorce and oaths.
Reply

Follower
08-01-2009, 10:30 PM
Yahya- the story of the clay birds is from "The Gospel of Thomas the Israelite" a book of fables. Written to late to be included in the New Testament and without the proof that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have.
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-02-2009, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Did you even read the article, Grace Seeker? Because it doesn't just list "some", it goes through the whole Sermon on the Mount as well as several places elsewhere in the Gospels, and the whole of Jesus's (P) teachings in the Koran being in the Gospels as well. The only things different in the plethora of examples I list are variations in rules regarding divorce and oaths.
Well, if youread my post you'll note that I agreed that quite probably there are many things in common among the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount and the Qur'an. But then you would also note that I also said:
I don't see those [the teachings you highlighted in your article] being what I as a Christian would have identified as being THE major teachings of Jesus.
Point being that you talked about the major teachings of Christianity. Important as the Sermon on the Mount is, it is only in one Gospel (Matthew), and has a parrallel passage, the Sermon on the Plain, in a second (Luke). So, while it is important, I would reserve the term "major" for that which you would find in all 4 Gospels. That pretty much limits the major teachings to Jesus' feeding of the 5000, Christ's crucifixion, and his subsequent resurrection.

Perhaps I'm making more out of the term "major" than you intended to. If so, I apologize. Now, if you want to talk about the major ethical teachings of Jesus -- which I would agree is revealed primary in the Sermon(s) on the Mount/Plain -- and the ethic of the Qur'an, we may be in more agreement. It's just that for us Christians, Jesus was so much more than just an ethical teacher.
Reply

Basit
08-02-2009, 05:38 PM
Al-Salam Alaykum,

I have never heard this from a muslim before- my understanding was that the prophets in Islam were perfect.
Brother, my post emphasized on the "COMPLETELY RIGHTEOUS" phrase. what i cited as examples of the errors they might have commited, as written in books, as stated in my post are just but human behavioural misconduct and ignorance. The idea which sprouted in my mind that time was if there is somebody completely righteous which is---have good behaviour, holy, good manners and conduct, no spot,---perfect. And so i also said they the most righteous. Brother, i dont want to continue further with this conversation regarding this issue as i feel i maybe wrong and im commiting a grave sin(astagfir-ullah), i just based my answer from what i read.


Anyway, regarding the topic On what Islam and Christianity agree......What about the Dome of the Rock? For Muslims, it is one very important place for us because we believe this is the mountain where the Prophet Abraham(pbuh) nearly sacrificed his son Ishmael(pbuh) and also this is where the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) rose up to heaven, that is why early muslims constructed a shrine on this mountain which is now known as the Dome of the Rock, which is near the Masjid Al-Aqsa. As for Christians(from what i read), this is also a very important location for them because they believe this is one of the location of the previous temples of Israel. And also Jews are planning to rebuilt the three temples of Israel as prophecied and the third temple's cornerstone is to be on the Dome of the Rock-----i dont know much about this but in one christian website, it says, the construction of the temples of Israel is one sign of the Revelation? and will trigger the event for the coming of the Messiah??


Salam!
Reply

IAmZamzam
08-03-2009, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
Yahya- the story of the clay birds is from "The Gospel of Thomas the Israelite" a book of fables. Written to late to be included in the New Testament and without the proof that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have.
It's funny that you've brought that up because it (perhaps ironically to someone with your viewpoint) pertains to one more small piece of evidence for the Koran's authenticity: the Gospel of Thomas was written so late, as you say, so how much of it would you expect to be accurate? A couple of little details. And it is only a couple of little details which are paralleled in the Koran. It makes perfect sense. I talk about this and many more such pieces of evidence here.
Reply

IAmZamzam
08-03-2009, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Well, if youread my post you'll note that I agreed that quite probably there are many things in common among the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount and the Qur'an. But then you would also note that I also said:Point being that you talked about the major teachings of Christianity. Important as the Sermon on the Mount is, it is only in one Gospel (Matthew), and has a parrallel passage, the Sermon on the Plain, in a second (Luke). So, while it is important, I would reserve the term "major" for that which you would find in all 4 Gospels. That pretty much limits the major teachings to Jesus' feeding of the 5000, Christ's crucifixion, and his subsequent resurrection.

Perhaps I'm making more out of the term "major" than you intended to. If so, I apologize. Now, if you want to talk about the major ethical teachings of Jesus -- which I would agree is revealed primary in the Sermon(s) on the Mount/Plain -- and the ethic of the Qur'an, we may be in more agreement. It's just that for us Christians, Jesus was so much more than just an ethical teacher.
What do you consider to be the major teachings? Could you give me a list?
Reply

Follower
08-05-2009, 12:58 PM
"the Gospel of Thomas was written so late, as you say, so how much of it would you expect to be accurate?"

This is simply legend and I certainly wouldn't bet my soul on it.

We have had a number of legends that have been passed down in my family. Some have been very close to the true history of our family that we have obtained through research. Some have been just wild stories!

There is also the Gospel of Barnabas that muslims have in the past have tried to use to prove Islam- it was written way too late with no proof of being fact.

Why wouldn't I go with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that have proof of history, withstood the test of time, much scrutinity and critical study? This is the Gospel the earliest church fathers used.
Reply

IAmZamzam
08-05-2009, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
[There is also the Gospel of Barnabas that muslims have in the past have tried to use to prove Islam- it was written way too late with no proof of being fact.
Allow me to be, in all likelihood, the first Muslim to tell you this: the Gospel of Barnabas is total B.S. Not only do several things in it contradict Islamic teachings, but it also makes clearly medieval references (as to knights being sent out, although that could conceivably be a matter of medieval translation). For example, have you noticed that the fruit in the Tree of Knowledge is never identified in either the Bible or the Koran (in all likelihood it was one-of-a-kind) yet everyone always speaks of it being an apple? That started in the Middle Ages in some place or other in Europe when the only fruit growing at the time when people put on annual plays in which they reenacted the story happened to be apples. Yet the Gospel of Barnabas, which purports to be older than the Middle Ages, clearly identifies the fruit as an apple (along with corn, for some reason).

Why wouldn't I go with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that have proof of history, withstood the test of time, much scrutinity and critical study? This is the Gospel the earliest church fathers used.
They don't always withstand my own scrutiny. There is no proof that the alleged authors really wrote it and it seems unlikely (except maybe for Luke, who wasn't an apostle), and there are many historical inaccuracies and contradictions between the Gospels, although that isn't to say a lot of it isn't likely accurate too. It's not a black-or-white matter. We Muslims believe that the only true, God-inspired Gospel was one of the many lost to history, which was in Jesus's (P) own words. It can't be the Gospel of Thomas though, since there's a quotation from that true Gospel in the Koran which is nowhere in that Gospel either.
Reply

Follower
08-06-2009, 07:41 PM
Yahya - "There is no proof that the alleged authors really wrote it and it seems unlikely (except maybe for Luke, who wasn't an apostle), and there are many historical inaccuracies and contradictions between the Gospels, although that isn't to say a lot of it isn't likely accurate too. It's not a black-or-white matter. We Muslims believe that the only true, God-inspired Gospel was one of the many lost to history, which was in Jesus's (P) own words."

Why would GOD not save a scripture? We have the students of the disciples- the early church fathers referencing the Gospel to know that it is in fact the one from GOD.

What historical inaccuracies? All the supposed contradictions of the Holy Bible have been explained many times and in fact are complimentary and not contradictory.
Reply

IAmZamzam
08-06-2009, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Follower
Why would GOD not save a scripture?
He did. He saved the Koran. Don't take it from me, though, take it from the encyclopedia:

While a few non-Muslim scholars have questioned the antiquity of the received text, these have found little acceptance for their ideas, and the Qur'an remains of all the major scriptures the one with the clearest textual history. (The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. Keith Crim: General Editor. Roger A. Bullar and Larry D. Shinn: Associate Editors. HarperSanFranciso, A Division of HarperCollinsPublishers.)

We have the students of the disciples- the early church fathers referencing the Gospel to know that it is in fact the one from GOD.
This reference is, as yet, too vague to be discussed. Please specify.

What historical inaccuracies? All the supposed contradictions of the Holy Bible have been explained many times and in fact are complimentary and not contradictory.
Both of these claims of yours are refuted, just in small part, in my article here.

By the way, you might want to alter your profile. I think your religion is no longer "undisclosed".
Reply

Uthman
08-08-2009, 04:22 PM
Thread closed at the request of the thread starter.
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