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sevgi
06-02-2009, 11:44 AM
:sl:

I ask this question humbly. I really know nothing on the topic.

What is the basis behind the ruling that a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim guy. Is it in the Quran or hadeeth? Is it due to practical reasons or faith based ones?

I have a senario:

Theres a non-muslim guy who is very open minded. He loves Islam so much that he wouldn't have an issue converting if it werent for his extremely non-islam family, ie, they believe that if a muslim enters the kitchen, all the food turns poisonous. He has faith, that is, he believes in all 6 pillars of iman. He practices some of the islamic practices etc...but he cannot convert and doesnt feel the need to convert as he feels in tune with islam as it is. He says that he wouldnt have an issue living like a muslim.

Could a muslim woman marry him? What bad could he be to her or their kids?

My humble salams.
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nebula
06-02-2009, 03:17 PM
Walaykumasalaam ukht, i found this fatwa that answers ur question i think,


Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men in the hope that they may become Muslim

What is the ruling on a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man, especially when she hopes that he will become Muslim after marriage? Many Muslim women claim that they cannot find suitable Muslim men, and that they are faced with the threat of having to commit sin or live in extremely straitened circumstances.

Praise be to Allaah.

It is forbidden for Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men, according to the Qur’aan, the Sunnah and the consensus of the scholars (ijmaa’) (see question # 689) . If such a marriage takes place, it is invalid, it does not have any impact upon inheritances according to sharee’ah, and any children born from this union are illegitimate. Hoping that the husband may become Muslim does not alter this ruling in the slightest.

source islam-qa.com
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yusuf18
06-02-2009, 03:19 PM
this is absulutly HARAM end of
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S_87
06-02-2009, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
:sl:

I ask this question humbly. I really know nothing on the topic.

What is the basis behind the ruling that a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim guy. Is it in the Quran or hadeeth? Is it due to practical reasons or faith based ones?

I have a senario:

Theres a non-muslim guy who is very open minded. He loves Islam so much that he wouldn't have an issue converting if it werent for his extremely non-islam family, ie, they believe that if a muslim enters the kitchen, all the food turns poisonous. He has faith, that is, he believes in all 6 pillars of iman. He practices some of the islamic practices etc...but he cannot convert and doesnt feel the need to convert as he feels in tune with islam as it is. He says that he wouldnt have an issue living like a muslim.

Could a muslim woman marry him? What bad could he be to her or their kids?

My humble salams.
if he is living like a muslim and he believes in islam in his heart, but the only thing stopping him is his parents then why couldnt he revert to islam without telling them and tell them later?

No she cannot marry him, but as for him he should meet with some brothers so that they can give him encouragement or the support he may need for reverting (not for her or marriage to her, but for himself)
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nebula
06-02-2009, 03:28 PM
He would have to become a muslim in order for a sister to marry him, even if hes acting like a muslim and belives he has to say the shahada, otherwise the nikah wouldn't be valid.

The person can become muslim by saying the shahada in private right, i don't think he has to tell his parents untill hes ready.
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Banu_Hashim
06-02-2009, 03:29 PM
According to sharia' I don't think that would be permissible. But as said ^, if he were to convert before telling his family and then marry...

Allahu Alim.
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crayon
06-02-2009, 04:00 PM
Salam sis

I had the same question a while ago, and I remember this video made sense at the time. Can only remember the gist of it now, but inshaAllah it will help.

link
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
06-02-2009, 04:13 PM
:sl:

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5845
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Ummu Sufyaan
06-03-2009, 03:39 AM
wa alaykum us-Salaam
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
:sl:
Could a muslim woman marry him? What bad could he be to her or their kids?
this isnt an Islamic perspective or anything, but just how i see things :)
1)if they do get married whilst he still is a non-Muslim, out of love for her husband, what makes her so sure that she wont convert to his faith?

2) what effect will it have on the kids: what religion will the kids end up following, cos kids love their dads as well so what guarantees that out of their love for him also, that they will follow his faith...and also yeah we can say that they can choose their own religion, but seriously, kids have trouble choosing what to wear/eat :p
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ragdollcat1982
06-03-2009, 02:18 PM
I understand why a Muslim woman is forbidden to marry a muslim man. But what is the rational around Muslim being allowed to marry a Jewish or Chrisitan woman? From what I know of marriage customs in Islam it seems from my prespective that a Muslim man would only be able to approach the parents of a Muslim woman. I guess this concept has puzzeled me and I dont mean to sound obsessive over it. In college a Kuwait friend of mine asked me if I would consider marrying him so he could get his green card to stay in the USA. Where would a Muslim man meet a non Muslim woman for marriage other than in forbidden sitatuions and why would he desire to marry her in the first place? If anyone could answer this I would be most obliged.
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Muhaba
06-03-2009, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
:sl:

I ask this question humbly. I really know nothing on the topic.

What is the basis behind the ruling that a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim guy. Is it in the Quran or hadeeth? Is it due to practical reasons or faith based ones?

I have a senario:

Theres a non-muslim guy who is very open minded. He loves Islam so much that he wouldn't have an issue converting if it werent for his extremely non-islam family, ie, they believe that if a muslim enters the kitchen, all the food turns poisonous. He has faith, that is, he believes in all 6 pillars of iman. He practices some of the islamic practices etc...but he cannot convert and doesnt feel the need to convert as he feels in tune with islam as it is. He says that he wouldnt have an issue living like a muslim.

Could a muslim woman marry him? What bad could he be to her or their kids?

My humble salams.
It is in the Quraan:

O you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them, Allah knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers, send them not back to the disbelievers, they are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them. ... (Surah 60 Al- Mumtahinah, verse 10).


This verse shows that Muslim women are not lawful for non-muslim men.
note that the word used in the verse is kufaar (disbelievers) and not mushrikeen (idolators). That is because marriage with mushrikeen is haraam for both muslim men and women, according to the following verse of the Quraan:

And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun till they believe (in Allah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikun) invite you to the Fire, but Allah invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember. (Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, verse 221)


Also, if this man's family is so anti-islamic, how can you expect that they will be tolerant to the muslim woman? how can you expect that they will let her follow Islam and allow the children to be raised as muslims?
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doorster
06-03-2009, 03:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I understand why a Muslim woman is forbidden to marry a (non)muslim man. But what is the rational around Muslim being allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman? From what I know of marriage customs in Islam it seems from my perspective that a Muslim man would only be able to approach the parents of a Muslim woman. I guess this concept has puzzeled me and I dont mean to sound obsessive over it. In college a Kuwait friend of mine asked me if I would consider marrying him so he could get his green card to stay in the USA. Where would a Muslim man meet a non Muslim woman for marriage other than in forbidden sitatuions and why would he desire to marry her in the first place? If anyone could answer this I would be most obliged.
me and you both are puzzled by it (regarding haramness of situation where this "Muslim" male meets with, flirts with and proposes to a non-Muslim lady_ and what about those Christian ladies who are rather fond of their dietary freedoms? e.g. eating of swine?

anyway
But what is the rationale behind Muslim male being allowed to marry a Jewish or Chrisitan woman?
she can remain on her religion (according to Islam they are ahl al kitab) and their children should be raised as Muslims
But what is the rationale behind Muslim female being not allowed to marry a Jewish or Chrisitan man?
according to them we are infidels (so muslimah will have to convert) and there is zero chance of children being raised Muslim

in my circles it is highly discouraged for a Muslim male to marry a non-Muslim lady too

format_quote Originally Posted by why a Christian woman should not marry a Muslim man
The Holy Qur’an has placed no restriction if a Muslim man wants to marry a Christian lady. It, however, has commanded the believers not to marry anyone who associates other partners with God (Mushriks) as He is one and alone nor should the believers marry any practitioner of adultery. Apart from these two restrictions, the Shari‘ah has placed no restriction on marriage contracts of the believers.

However, this does not mean that we should not use our commonsense and reason to choose the person we intend to marry. Indeed, there are many things involved that must be considered before a couple decides to get married. The foremost factor is that there should be harmony between both in terms of their financial status and religious set up. Religion is not a trivial matter to be ignored while choosing your prospective husband. Marriage means that two persons are going to live together for the rest of their lives. Do you think that there would be no conflict on religious issues? What about the children that God will bless you with? What religion would they be taught? You may think that such matters are of less importance to modern minds. But I assure you that these matters will be of concern to you both once the honeymoon is over.

Does the Qur'an say that the Christian women have to convert to Islam and gain knowledge about it to marry the Muslim men?

I would like to tell you that the Holy Qur’an does not hold religion as a petty matter. Why would Qur’an ask a lady to renounce her religion for some mortal man? Religion is something very personal in nature. It is a deep relationship — a connection more strong than the one which is established between a man and his wife. It is about God and His servants; it is about God and you. There is no man between you and Him. You accept Him on a very personal basis; you surrender before Him of your own accord. Did you know that Islam gives so much respect to Christians because of the fact that they believe in one God? The bitterest thing is however that they have devised ‘Three’ for the One that is alone and without any partner whatsoever. He is One and is the Creator and Master of all humans. Islam calls all the Christians to accept the fact that was also propagated by Jesus (sws) as the Lord is One. What I wish to say is that religion is something that should be chosen with a serious mind and after appreciating the value of the specific teachings that this religion promotes. Islam does not force people to convert. It is the truth that every willing person is welcome to embrace.

A marital arrangement is very simple. Islam requires that elders from both sides be involved in this matter. Marriages that are contracted without involving the families from both sides often end up in failure. Therefore, I very humbly advise to bring the matter to the attention of your family. Marriage is indeed a public announcement that this couple, from now on, would live as a wedded husband and wife—an arrangement which needs to be registered with the relevant government body as well.

Islam does not like that any intimate relationship should be created between a lady and a gentlemen before marriage. We—the servants of God are to live a pure and good life in order to attain inner purification. Islam repels the very idea of having an intimate relationship before marriage because it divests you of your purity of heart. We must know that this life is transitory in nature. It is a prelude to that life which is eternal and lasting. We must be well conscious of what we do in this life. Anything which is against morality will strictly be dealt with in the Hereafter. The only thing we need to keep in mind is that while marriage is a sacred bond, extramarital relationship is filth, which is abhorrent and intolerable.
^^ author/website does not exist any more so demand no references/names (I am thinking of making it my own by revising and editing at a future date)
format_quote Originally Posted by Tafheem ul Quran by Sayyid Maududi
(2:221) Do not marry mushrik women unless they believe; a slave woman who believes is better than a free woman who does not believe, even though the latter may appear very attractive to you. (Likewise) do not wed your women to mushrik men unless they believe; a slave man who believes is better than a free man who does not, even though he may be very pleasing to you.
These mushrik people invite you to the Fire *237 while Allah by His grace invites you to the Garden and His pardon, and He makes His revelations plain to the people so that they should learn a lesson and follow the admonition.

*237. This is the reason for, and the wisdom underlying the injunction mentioned above prohibiting marriage links with polytheists. Marriage does not consist merely of carnal relations between a man and a woman. It is a relationship which has deep social, moral and emotional implications.

If established between a believer and a polytheist, this kind of relationship has many possible outcomes. On the one hand, it is possible that because of the influence of the believing spouse, the other partner, the family and the future generations may become receptive to Islamic beliefs and to the Islamic way of life.

On the other hand, it is also possible that the spouse who is a polytheist may influence the thinking and mode of living of the believing spouse, the family and the future generations. Moreover this relationship may promote in that family a hotch-potch of Islam, downright atheism, and polytheism which, however welcome to non-Muslims, is in no way acceptable to Islam.

No true believer can run the risk that either the ideas and life-styles which are organically related to atheism and polytheism may flourish among the members of his family, or that some aspect of his own life may bear the impress of atheism or polytheism.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-03-2009, 05:01 PM
It's better to say there is a very rare chance the kids would be Muslim if the woman married a non muslim man...and I say this because I know of a brother whos dad is Christian but mom is a Muslim. Him, his sister and now his mom are practising...but his dad is still aorund...poor guy he's planning on taking his mom and sister somewhere else with him cuz he knows its haraam.

I'll never understand the whole thing of a muslim guy being able to marry a non muslim woman...seeing as u still have situations where the wife never becomes muslim and kids are raised other than Muslim..although I know the opposite takes place as well. And also it bothers me that even a really good Christian woman will still do shirk...and when they dont, eventually they become Muslim...sorry it just doesnt sit in my mind...so i dont even bother with it and say Allahu Alam rather than causing Allah anger if I say anything wrong.

Also this ayaat that was posted...it refers to what Im talking about

And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun till they believe (in Allah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikun) invite you to the Fire, but Allah invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember. (Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, verse 221)

it says right there about not marrying those who do shirk(even the women) until they believe meaning in Islam...

So if anyone is willing to take the liberty of breaking it down to me lol...
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doorster
06-03-2009, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
.....

And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun till they believe (in Allah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikun) invite you to the Fire, but Allah invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember. (Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, verse 221)

it says right there about not marrying those who do shirk(even the women) until they believe meaning in Islam...

So if anyone is willing to take the liberty of breaking it down to me lol...
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Tafheem ul Quran by Sayyid Maududi
(2:221) Do not marry mushrik women unless they believe; a slave woman who believes is better than a free woman who does not believe, even though the latter may appear very attractive to you. (Likewise) do not wed your women to mushrik men unless they believe; a slave man who believes is better than a free man who does not, even though he may be very pleasing to you.
These mushrik people invite you to the Fire *237 while Allah by His grace invites you to the Garden and His pardon, and He makes His revelations plain to the people so that they should learn a lesson and follow the admonition.

*237. This is the reason for, and the wisdom underlying the injunction mentioned above prohibiting marriage links with polytheists. Marriage does not consist merely of carnal relations between a man and a woman. It is a relationship which has deep social, moral and emotional implications.

If established between a believer and a polytheist, this kind of relationship has many possible outcomes. On the one hand, it is possible that because of the influence of the believing spouse, the other partner, the family and the future generations may become receptive to Islamic beliefs and to the Islamic way of life.

On the other hand, it is also possible that the spouse who is a polytheist may influence the thinking and mode of living of the believing spouse, the family and the future generations. Moreover this relationship may promote in that family a hotch-potch of Islam, downright atheism, and polytheism which, however welcome to non-Muslims, is in no way acceptable to Islam.

No true believer can run the risk that either the ideas and life-styles which are organically related to atheism and polytheism may flourish among the members of his family, or that some aspect of his own life may bear the impress of atheism or polytheism.
:w:
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ausaf
06-04-2009, 07:04 AM
The Muslim Matrimonial (MusMat) connects Muslims around the world for marriage. With the strongest vetting and checking on the web, the most serious Muslim marriage matches can be contacted easily by phone, email, SMS, without wastage of time.


The Muslim Matrimonail http://www.themuslimmatrimonial.co.uk:sl:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-04-2009, 03:54 PM
^^Wrong thread for that bro...
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alcurad
06-04-2009, 04:23 PM
the sister asked a question which this thread seems not to be answering at all as of the last posts, what has some people's personal view, that muslim men may not marry women of all other faiths, which moreover goes against Islam to do with it?

on topic: if the only thing stopping him from becoming muslim is his parents and so on, and you're absolutely sure he won't remain as he is, then you may marry him since he is praying, believes in the pillars etc, for a certain period of time, and see what happens then, otherwise don't go down that road, it' not like he's the only man there is.

NB; a muslim brother who just converted would-presumably-not know much about the religion at first, however that doesn't prevent a muslim woman from marrying him, I'm basing my suggestion on that. on the other hand, if he doesn't embrace Islam 'fully' after some time had passed, then it-religiously speaking-would be a null marriage.
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Sampharo
06-07-2009, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
on topic: if the only thing stopping him from becoming muslim is his parents and so on, and you're absolutely sure he won't remain as he is, then you may marry him since he is praying, believes in the pillars etc, for a certain period of time, and see what happens then, otherwise don't go down that road, it' not like he's the only man there is.
I agree on bringing it back to topic too. Just to clarify, he needs to make Shahada and declaration and become muslim BEFORE concluding the marriage, and simply delay telling his parents.
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ragdollcat1982
06-09-2009, 11:42 PM
http://www.halaltube.com/contemporar...-to-non-muslim

A good presentation on this topic by Bilal Phillips. However when is explaining that a non Muslim man may ask his Muslim wives to do certain things such as immodest dress and physical contact with other men like kissing them socially can endanger their relgion. I would like to not that a decent Christian man would not ask his wife to do such things and would have similar expectations as a Muslim husband.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-10-2009, 02:34 AM
Unfortunately no explanation seems to be enough for me, when I look at that verse in my previous post..
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ragdollcat1982
06-10-2009, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Unfortunately no explanation seems to be enough for me, when I look at that verse in my previous post..

I dont understand sister, would you clarify what you mean please?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-10-2009, 03:02 AM
I mean any explanation about a Muslim man being able to marry a Jew or Christian...in one aya it says not to marry the mushriks i.e. those that associate partners with Allah....eventually it might stick, but at the moment it doesnt.

Allah knows best. I dont bother with it though incase the problem is in my understanding...it might just be "me."
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ragdollcat1982
06-10-2009, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
I mean any explanation about a Muslim man being able to marry a Jew or Christian...in one aya it says not to marry the mushriks i.e. those that associate partners with Allah....eventually it might stick, but at the moment it doesnt.

Allah knows best. I dont bother with it though incase the problem is in my understanding...it might just be "me."


I think that Dr. Phillips does a good job explaining it.:) My understanding is that a Muslim man may marry a chaste woman who is a Jew or Christian. The things that he would ask of her such as modest dress, not drinking alchol or eating pork, or mixing with men would not harm her religion in fact would be compatible with their religion. But a non Muslim man could ask things that would endanger the religion of her and her children. The Bible tells Christians not to yoke themselves to unbelivers (hence non Christians). Ideally I do believe that one should marry within their own faith as then it will be pretty clear what religion the children will be raised. I think marriages between a Muslim and women of the Book can work out and be good as long as it clear that the kids will be raised in the fathers faith. However I do wonder that while a Muslim man may love his non muslim wife, how will his family treat her and how will other muslim women treat her in general?
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Pomak
06-10-2009, 06:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
:sl:

I ask this question humbly. I really know nothing on the topic.

What is the basis behind the ruling that a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim guy. Is it in the Quran or hadeeth? Is it due to practical reasons or faith based ones?

I have a senario:

Theres a non-muslim guy who is very open minded. He loves Islam so much that he wouldn't have an issue converting if it werent for his extremely non-islam family, ie, they believe that if a muslim enters the kitchen, all the food turns poisonous. He has faith, that is, he believes in all 6 pillars of iman. He practices some of the islamic practices etc...but he cannot convert and doesnt feel the need to convert as he feels in tune with islam as it is. He says that he wouldnt have an issue living like a muslim.

Could a muslim woman marry him? What bad could he be to her or their kids?

My humble salams.
Did you get your answer?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-10-2009, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I think that Dr. Phillips does a good job explaining it.:) My understanding is that a Muslim man may marry a chaste woman who is a Jew or Christian. The things that he would ask of her such as modest dress, not drinking alchol or eating pork, or mixing with men would not harm her religion in fact would be compatible with their religion. But a non Muslim man could ask things that would endanger the religion of her and her children. The Bible tells Christians not to yoke themselves to unbelivers (hence non Christians). Ideally I do believe that one should marry within their own faith as then it will be pretty clear what religion the children will be raised. I think marriages between a Muslim and women of the Book can work out and be good as long as it clear that the kids will be raised in the fathers faith. However I do wonder that while a Muslim man may love his non muslim wife, how will his family treat her and how will other muslim women treat her in general?
That's not what bothers me, it's the fact what Christians and even Jews do nowadays contradicts Islam...and we know shirk is the biggest form of sin.
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Melancholy
06-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Salamu Alaikum. I am in a dilemma as I am love a non muslim boy. How can I lose these feelings? I dress modestly and try to be a good muslim. Nothing has ever happened as we are just friends. Why do I always fall for non-muslim boys?
Help??
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FATEone
06-10-2009, 05:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Melancholy
Salamu Alaikum. I am in a dilemma as I am love a non muslim boy. How can I lose these feelings? I dress modestly and try to be a good muslim. Nothing has ever happened as we are just friends. Why do I always fall for non-muslim boys?
Help??
Where are you from Sister?
I understand the situation you may face, however The One True God is Love. It is not a sin to love another human being. It is not a sin for a woman to be in Love with a man or vice-versa.
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Melancholy
06-10-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FATEone
Where are you from Sister?
I understand the situation you may face, however The One True God is Love. It is not a sin to love another human being. It is not a sin for a woman to be in Love with a man or vice-versa.
Different religion.
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Banu_Hashim
06-10-2009, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FATEone
Where are you from Sister?
I understand the situation you may face, however The One True God is Love. It is not a sin to love another human being. It is not a sin for a woman to be in Love with a man or vice-versa.
Yeah, but you have to see it from an Islamic perspective, and then you'll see her dilemma. You can't have relationships of any kind with the opposite sex before marriage.

format_quote Originally Posted by Melancholy
Salamu Alaikum. I am in a dilemma as I am love a non muslim boy. How can I lose these feelings? I dress modestly and try to be a good muslim. Nothing has ever happened as we are just friends. Why do I always fall for non-muslim boys?
Help??
Sis, it's probably just a phase. You're not the only muslim to go through such feelings, I can tell you that for sure. Just try and be strong, and focus your attention on other things. The more Islamic thinks such as salah, the better :).
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Melancholy
06-10-2009, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
Sis, it's probably just a phase. You're not the only muslim to go through such feelings, I can tell you that for sure. Just try and be strong, and focus your attention on other things. The more Islamic thinks such as salah, the better :).
I have been praying to Allah and to help me get through this stage. Thank you very much for your help:)
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Melancholy
06-10-2009, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
Yeah, but you have to see it from an Islamic perspective, and then you'll see her dilemma. You can't have relationships of any kind with the opposite sex before marriage.
I wan't comtemplating any of that, because I will not act upon on my feelings. It's just something which I feel, but will not demonstrate before marriage obviously:)
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Banu_Hashim
06-10-2009, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Melancholy
I wan't comtemplating any of that, because I will not act upon on my feelings. It's just something which I feel, but will not demonstrate before marriage obviously:)
Yep, I understand that. Feelings I guess can seem harmless, but can act as a catalyst for other things. I'd just try and forget about whatever it was. Easier said than done, I know! :p
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Melancholy
06-10-2009, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
Yep, I understand that. Feelings I guess can seem harmless, but can act as a catalyst for other things. I'd just try and forget about whatever it was. Easier said than done, I know! :p
Thanks for understanding and the help. May Allah reward you inshallah:)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-10-2009, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Melancholy
I have been praying to Allah and to help me get through this stage. Thank you very much for your help:)
Sis you wana know something, I had this problem when I was in junior high and up until high school. I knew also that the kid liked me lol. It lasted about 3 yrs but Alhamdulillah I never acted on it. Allah Ta'ala kept me safe and wallahi I'm so grateful. I wasn't even practising at the time but I knew we weren't allowed to date or have boyfriends etc. I gotta give credit to my parents for raising me this way.

Oh what's funny is, my parents don't know about this even now Looool.
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Melancholy
06-10-2009, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Sis you wana know something, I had this problem when I was in junior high and up until high school. I knew also that the kid liked me lol. It lasted about 3 yrs but Alhamdulillah I never acted on it. Allah Ta'ala kept me safe and wallahi I'm so grateful. I wasn't even practising at the time but I knew we weren't allowed to date or have boyfriends etc. I gotta give credit to my parents for raising me this way.

Oh what's funny is, my parents don't know about this even now Looool.

Same here.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-10-2009, 06:00 PM
^^ I never felt the need to as Allah knew my intentions and just cause I feared their reaction.
So my point is...do the same and try to ignore it. Remembering Allah helps :)

:sl:
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Salahudeen
06-10-2009, 06:34 PM
hmm I wouldn't have given the feelings a chance to arise in the first place, this is why mixing with the opposite gender is haraam looks like you learnt the hard way,
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ragdollcat1982
06-11-2009, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
That's not what bothers me, it's the fact what Christians and even Jews do nowadays contradicts Islam...and we know shirk is the biggest form of sin.


I would not put all Christians and Jews into a single box. You have good and bad in all religions. I have met more chaste women and Christians in general who live a holy life than those who have not. I cant really form an opinion on the Jews as I have not had much experinece with them. But those who live in accordance with Christian morals will find they are compatiable with most Islamic morailty.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-11-2009, 09:38 PM
^^ Of course I can't and its not chastity that I'm on about, but the type of shirk done by them, even if they are really chaste. A lot of times thoe who dont do shirk, they tend to come to islam eventually. Allah knows best, maybe sooner than later it'll click to me.
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sevgi
06-16-2009, 04:40 AM
Salams all,

Ive been on a few times to go through what your responses were...thank you all for clarifying some aspects of my query.

Just to elaborate a little:

This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.

He loves her hijab and way of dress and would never get in the way of their children becoming muslim. He himself lives like a muslim but does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims. He choses to be an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions. He loves islam and all his friends are muslims. He does not do anything unislamic and practices some islamic principles better than any muslim I know.

I am very very worried that I am beginning to sympathise and agree with the sister and her non-muslim man. How can Islam have an issue with this?
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doorster
06-16-2009, 07:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
the sister asked a question which this thread seems not to be answering at all as of the last posts, what has some people's personal view, that muslim men may not marry women of all other faiths, which moreover goes against Islam to do with it?

on topic: if the only thing stopping him from becoming muslim is his parents and so on, and you're absolutely sure he won't remain as he is, then you may marry him since he is praying, believes in the pillars etc, for a certain period of time, and see what happens then, otherwise don't go down that road, it' not like he's the only man there is.

NB; a muslim brother who just converted would-presumably-not know much about the religion at first, however that doesn't prevent a muslim woman from marrying him, I'm basing my suggestion on that. on the other hand, if he doesn't embrace Islam 'fully' after some time had passed, then it-religiously speaking-would be a null marriage.
Marry him to "see what hapens"? she likely gets impregnated by this person
if he doesn't embrace Islam 'fully' after some time had passed, then it-religiously speaking-would be a null marriage.
so it is permissible to "marry" and move in with a "potential" Muslim but she must leave him after some time has elapsed and he has not become Muslim?

wait a minute look at the following quote (I anticipated this (guessed it) when I reported your post more than a week ago)
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
Salams all,

Ive been on a few times to go through what your responses were...thank you all for clarifying some aspects of my query.

Just to elaborate a little:

This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.

He loves her hijab and way of dress and would never get in the way of their children becoming muslim. He himself lives like a muslim but does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims. He choses to be an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions. He loves islam and all his friends are muslims. He does not do anything unislamic and practices some islamic principles better than any muslim I know.

I am very very worried that I am beginning to sympathise and agree with the sister and her non-muslim man. How can Islam have an issue with this?
to summarise: according to some members here, a potential Muslim has the following qualities in him:

  • he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.
  • he does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel (4) to those who are non-muslims.
  • he is an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions (2).
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Ummu Sufyaan
06-16-2009, 08:23 AM
:sl:
I am very very worried that I am beginning to sympathise and agree with the sister and her non-muslim man. How can Islam have an issue with this?
becuase Allah knows best, and hence shouldn't be questioned when it comes to His Rulings? :)

This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.
that alone should tell her what type of guy he is :hmm:
if he thinks islam is backward, then how is he gna mind raising his kids as muslim...
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Sampharo
06-16-2009, 04:09 PM
This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion....

How can Islam have an issue with this?
You answered your own question. How can you NOT have an issue with the head of the family thinking her religion is backward? How will the children be taught to pray when their father tells them his "opinion" of Islam?

More importantly you're now being contradicting, you started the thread by saying he will convert but afraid of his parents, and now he is agnostic who will never convert...

Look sister, the flat answer is that it is impermissible by complete consensus of all schools of Islamic fiqh and rulings for such a marriage to happen. If ignored and they become together despite of this, she will be living in grave sin every single day of her life, commiting zina every time they are together. The basis is both Quran as well as hadith and fiqh ruling.
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rpwelton
06-17-2009, 02:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
http://www.halaltube.com/contemporar...-to-non-muslim

A good presentation on this topic by Bilal Phillips. However when is explaining that a non Muslim man may ask his Muslim wives to do certain things such as immodest dress and physical contact with other men like kissing them socially can endanger their relgion. I would like to not that a decent Christian man would not ask his wife to do such things and would have similar expectations as a Muslim husband.
But you have to understand that the standards of dress and conduct in Islam and Christianity are very different. I think you would be hard pressed to find a Christian man who is willing to have his wife wear the hijab and full jilbaab, avoid interaction with his male friends, and not cook pork at home. For her to be true to her religion, her life will have to be quite a bit different from the life her husband is used to. I'm not sure how many men could deal with that (and if they would at first, I'm sure down the line there would be compromises from the woman).
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doorster
06-17-2009, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
the sister asked a question which this thread seems not to be answering at all as of the last posts, what has some people's personal view, that muslim men may not marry women of all other faiths, which moreover goes against Islam to do with it?

.
It is halal for Christians (according to their religion) to consume wine and pork, also some of them will use statues and Icons (idols according to me) to aide in worship

should a "Muslim" who marries a Christian lady, keep a supply of the above-mentioned items in his home for the sake of his wife?
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ummsara1108
06-17-2009, 03:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I understand why a Muslim woman is forbidden to marry a muslim man. But what is the rational around Muslim being allowed to marry a Jewish or Chrisitan woman? From what I know of marriage customs in Islam it seems from my prespective that a Muslim man would only be able to approach the parents of a Muslim woman. I guess this concept has puzzeled me and I dont mean to sound obsessive over it. In college a Kuwait friend of mine asked me if I would consider marrying him so he could get his green card to stay in the USA. Where would a Muslim man meet a non Muslim woman for marriage other than in forbidden sitatuions and why would he desire to marry her in the first place? If anyone could answer this I would be most obliged.


I met my husband were we both Worked, don't think that is forbidden! (he/muslim, me/undecided at the moment but from a christian upbringing)
and as far as the rational around it, its even in the bible that the woman always follows the husband and the children as well. And the greencard thing...lol...my husband spacificaly didn't ask my hand in marriage until he had his citizenship. And as far as his disire to marry me in the first place, perhaps it was the fact I wasn't a (typical american woman) I have always dressed modest, my actions are respectful, I came did my job and was gone, no time to hangout with the girls moreless the guys, independance, and most of all my giant neverending HEART.
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sevgi
06-18-2009, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummsara1108
I met my husband were we both Worked, don't think that is forbidden! (he/muslim, me/undecided at the moment but from a christian upbringing)
and as far as the rational around it, its even in the bible that the woman always follows the husband and the children as well. And the greencard thing...lol...my husband spacificaly didn't ask my hand in marriage until he had his citizenship. And as far as his disire to marry me in the first place, perhaps it was the fact I wasn't a (typical american woman) I have always dressed modest, my actions are respectful, I came did my job and was gone, no time to hangout with the girls moreless the guys, independance, and most of all my giant neverending HEART.
I like what you are saying coz it seems at least you understand what im trying to say.

If this guy and this girl have the chemistry and potential and logic to want to marry one another, their lives must be intune.

The non-muslim guy never drinks..never will, it is haraam to him as he has chosen this practice from the islamic etc faiths as he sees the logic behind it. He loves islam and sees logic in it all, except for the fact that such a beautiful religion doesnt allow him to marry a woman of this religion even though he loves and respects and lives it so well.
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Pomak
06-18-2009, 11:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
Salams all,

Ive been on a few times to go through what your responses were...thank you all for clarifying some aspects of my query.

Just to elaborate a little:

This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.

He loves her hijab and way of dress and would never get in the way of their children becoming muslim. He himself lives like a muslim but does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims. He choses to be an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions. He loves islam and all his friends are muslims. He does not do anything unislamic and practices some islamic principles better than any muslim I know.

I am very very worried that I am beginning to sympathise and agree with the sister and her non-muslim man. How can Islam have an issue with this?
Take him to Afroz Ali and see if he can get him (IA) to make the shahada and explain the last few snags.

As for the issue, its a non negotiable subject. no Imam will do the ceremony. And i am not going to make the judgment because its not my right/responsibility but there is an explicit ayat that deals with this. And another talks about people who take one part of the book and reject the other parts.

Just take them both to Afroz and if they still think its right, well you did your bit.

PS. does your friend think its a sin that she want to marry him, or does she think its halal?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-18-2009, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
I like what you are saying coz it seems at least you understand what im trying to say.

If this guy and this girl have the chemistry and potential and logic to want to marry one another, their lives must be intune.

The non-muslim guy never drinks..never will, it is haraam to him as he has chosen this practice from the islamic etc faiths as he sees the logic behind it. He loves islam and sees logic in it all, except for the fact that such a beautiful religion doesnt allow him to marry a woman of this religion even though he loves and respects and lives it so well.
I'm not sure what is holding the guy back from embracing Islam if he sooo loves it...?? If he really lives it, then why not just take his shahada? Does he pray? Since that is what matters most and is what Allah will ask us about first.
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nebula
06-18-2009, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
I like what you are saying coz it seems at least you understand what im trying to say.

If this guy and this girl have the chemistry and potential and logic to want to marry one another, their lives must be intune.

The non-muslim guy never drinks..never will, it is haraam to him as he has chosen this practice from the islamic etc faiths as he sees the logic behind it. He loves islam and sees logic in it all, except for the fact that such a beautiful religion doesnt allow him to marry a woman of this religion even though he loves and respects and lives it so well.
We all understand what you are trying to say sis, we are giving you good answers.

I dont quite understand, your saying he loves islam and respects it but the earlier post you said he thinks its a backward religion, illogical and he doesnt feel the need to convert??

"He himself lives like a muslim but does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims"

Sis sevgi tell the sister that this kuffar aint worth marrying, if he doesnt take the shahada then its useless to say anything, she cant marry him! lol why we need to discuss this further? i mean its very simple and straight foward.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-18-2009, 08:32 PM
^^ I agree. It seems like to me that your not getting the answer you want? We aren't speaking of our own desires sis.
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alcurad
06-18-2009, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
should a "Muslim" who marries a Christian lady, keep a supply of the above-mentioned items in his home for the sake of his wife?
brother doorster, I hope you realize this is off-topic, but since you insisted: yes he should if she wants it, she is not muslim so not all of our rules apply to her.

the christians a the time of the prophet were doing those things already-pork, wine, idols- yet the qur'an allowed marriage. enough said.

your other reply was nonsensical, I posted much earlier, when there were no details as him not fully believing etc, so your point is moot, please re-read the thread from the beginning, realize the sequence of what was said then post.

back to topic, the man is practically Muslim, except a few things here and there, they are important though, and if he's come all this way, he might be hesitant to take the few extra steps remaining.

it is quite logical for Islam to have this type of rule when it comes to marriage, for reasons that are quite obvious so I'm not going to go there, but perhaps this person needs to think a bit harder on this and make his choice already?
I mean if he's citing the usual 'backwardness' stuff, then it's probably out of ignorance rather than any deeply existential reasoning.

as it were, we don't claim possession of absolute truth, yes Islam is truth, but not many Muslims will claim that they have a 100% grasp of all of it. so yes, other religions might have some semblance of truth, but then Islam already encompasses the useful/correct parts of both natural and 'sent from god' religions, as such, embracing Islam necessarily entails accepting many parts of the other ways of life too.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-18-2009, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alpha dude
if she loves this guy so much, she'd want him to be saved from hell-fire. The only way for that to happen is if he were to convert - even the prophet saw's uncle wasn't saved from the fire, despite how good he was.

for some reason, she doesn't seem to think conversion is an important enough issue. That to me indicates that she herself has problems with iman/understanding of islam. First and foremost, she needs educating on what is and what isn't acceptable.

Go with what pomak says and take them to bro afroz. Inshaallah he'd advise them.
Right!!
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Salahudeen
06-18-2009, 08:46 PM
* he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.
* he does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims.
* he is an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions

Is this some kind of joke?? the man feels like this about Islam and the girl still wants to marry him? subhanallah

It seems this person only wants to follow what agree's with his own desires and intellect, who is he to decide with his own limited intellect and mind what is logical and un logical, who is he to question the wisdom and laws of Allah? the fact that he questions them is proof that he doesn't believe in Islam as a valid religion.

"The only saying of the faithful believers, when they are called to Allaah and His Messenger, to judge between them, is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And such are the successful. And whosoever obeys Allaah and His Messenger , fears Allaah, and revers Him -–such are the successful." (24:51-52)

What kind of person questions the laws of Allah with his own intellect? does he think his mind is more wiser than Allah's and able to decide what is logical and un logical.

"It is not fit for a believer, man or woman, when Allaah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allaah and His Messenger has indeed strayed in a clear deviation." (Surah Al-Ahzaab 33:36)


Ask this man what he thinks of the messenger of Allah pbuh,

ask him does he believe the messenger of allah to be a true prophet or false liar?

obviously he will say "liar" because he doesn't believe in the bits of Islam that don't agree with his 21st century conditioned intellect.

So then how can she marry some 1 who believes that the prophet is a liar?

How can she marry some who believes the prophet of Islam pbuh brought a "backwards religion"

How can she marry some 1 who believes the prophet of Islam pbuh brought a religion that is cruel to non muslims?


and finally you mentioned he is an agnostic that embraces the beautifull factors of all religions?

what is his definition of "beauty"? I know a man who thought it was beautifull to commit zina (sex outside of marriage) and he was the same

he "only followed the beautifull factors of all religions" so he found a religion where ZINA was acceptable and embraced it because he thought it was beautifull.

I also know a man who thought it was beautifull to drink alcohol and have four wifes so he followd the bit of islam that allows four wifes and carried on with his drinking and eating pork because they were beautifull to him.


I think it's quite obvious that the people who "embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions"

are only embracing that whic agree's with their desires and intellect and people's definition of beauty differs from person to person and so does their sense of logic.

How does she know that he doesn't embrace the bit of christianity that says jesus is the son of god because he thinks it's beautifull.

it's so stupid this kind of thinking. How can she even think about marrying someone who calls her prophet pbuh a liar??? what an insult, does it not hurt her when she thinks about this?
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sevgi
06-19-2009, 01:31 PM
Okay, I'm gna re-explain things one more time and clarify myself. I don't want to misrepresent anyone.

The girl:

She's a practicing muslim girl. She prays, wears the hijab etc etc etc and has, what would be considered by us random muslims as having solid imaan inshallah.

The guy:

The guy has imaan in the islamic sense. He solidly believes in the six pillars of imaan. He loves God and all religions he has decreed throughout the times. For this reason, he finds a special affiliation with Islam, coz it embraces all of them whereas the others reject islam etc.

He practices many things. He fasts and prays, sometimes the way muslims do, sometimes the way hindus do, he goes to Jumaa sometimes etc etc. In essence, he prays to the ONE god he believes in and does it in many practical forms.

He doesn't drink, backbite, commit zina etc. He loves everything about islam.

He would convert, but as I said in my first post, he does not have the heart to betray his family. The consequences of his conversion are immense...he gets disowned from his family; his surname etc. He becomes dead to his ancestry etc and is expected to start a life with a muslim girl...alone. It is such a sad thought...but it is also very real and I dont think any one of us could stand such a thing...imagine it...I cant...

He didnt say that he thinks islam is backward. I used a bad word. I appologise. The ONLY issue he has with Islam is that he would convert if he could...but cannot. He is hence being punished by Islam for something he cannot help. He has imaan, he lives like a muslim...but isnt one coz he doesnt practice everything. How many of us have claimed shahada? How many of us practice islam to a T?

The girl could go marry a semi-practicing or non-practicing muslim and it wouldnt be haraam..sheikhs wouldnt have issues ordaining it... but she cant marry a devout and pious, godfearing man of faith who cannot convert due to his loyalty to his family? It just doesnt seem right.

(Please dont tell me to tell her to make him convert secretly...disloyalty is disloyalty even in secret..he just wont do it and his parents arent stupid.)

Please dont pick on me...Im pretty impartial to all of this.
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mathematician
06-19-2009, 02:20 PM
Dear sevgi, Allah has created millions of muslim men. So let this sister pick a muslim man.
I am sorry but all the good intentions you mentionnned about the guy are not good enough, in my opinion. Loyalty to Allah is more important than loyalty to family.
If due to family reasons this man will remain non-muslim then I would think that before Allah it's not good enough. We cannot question Allah's wisdom when our intelligence is so limited.
It is not good enough to worship Allah in one's heart but follow religious rituals of a false religion for the rest of the day.
If that was ok, then we could all pray to Allah 5 times a day and then (astaghfirullah) worship idols for the rest of the day.
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Al-Zaara
06-19-2009, 02:35 PM
Our loyalty should belong to Allah subhana we ta'ala.

I can symphatise with the sister, really. I know a few non-Muslim men who are very good, reminding me of what you have told about this guy in question, and I know the women who get them are lucky girls.

She cannot anything else but to forget this man, until he embraces Islam fully she cannot be with him. Well, she can of course do whatever she wants, but it she shouldn't do it Islamically.

It is not Islam which is stopping him from marrying the girl he wants, it is his own family, who is not allowing him to take in the "name" of what he believes in. I mean, who would cut him off for being honest enough to himself and his life, to take the step and convert to Islam, bare the "label" "Muslim".

He should also realize, the life he is living and all what he loves about Islam, if he would start a relationship with this girl, he would slap her and his beliefs in the face for this life, which for us Muslim is worth to sacrifice what we desire and love if it is what our belief requests, because we believe in another, better, fulfilled life. Get me?

I also think, you do stay impartial if it makes you feel better, in the end it is her and his deicision.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-19-2009, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
Okay, I'm gna re-explain things one more time and clarify myself. I don't want to misrepresent anyone.

The girl:

She's a practicing muslim girl. She prays, wears the hijab etc etc etc and has, what would be considered by us random muslims as having solid imaan inshallah.

The guy:

The guy has imaan in the islamic sense. He solidly believes in the six pillars of imaan. He loves God and all religions he has decreed throughout the times. For this reason, he finds a special affiliation with Islam, coz it embraces all of them whereas the others reject islam etc.

He practices many things. He fasts and prays, sometimes the way muslims do, sometimes the way hindus do, he goes to Jumaa sometimes etc etc. In essence, he prays to the ONE god he believes in and does it in many practical forms.

He doesn't drink, backbite, commit zina etc. He loves everything about islam.

He would convert, but as I said in my first post, he does not have the heart to betray his family. The consequences of his conversion are immense...he gets disowned from his family; his surname etc. He becomes dead to his ancestry etc and is expected to start a life with a muslim girl...alone. It is such a sad thought...but it is also very real and I dont think any one of us could stand such a thing...imagine it...I cant...

He didnt say that he thinks islam is backward. I used a bad word. I appologise. The ONLY issue he has with Islam is that he would convert if he could...but cannot. He is hence being punished by Islam for something he cannot help. He has imaan, he lives like a muslim...but isnt one coz he doesnt practice everything. How many of us have claimed shahada? How many of us practice islam to a T?

The girl could go marry a semi-practicing or non-practicing muslim and it wouldnt be haraam..sheikhs wouldnt have issues ordaining it... but she cant marry a devout and pious, godfearing man of faith who cannot convert due to his loyalty to his family? It just doesnt seem right.

(Please dont tell me to tell her to make him convert secretly...disloyalty is disloyalty even in secret..he just wont do it and his parents arent stupid.)

Please dont pick on me...Im pretty impartial to all of this.
You know what, I just realized something. You said he prays right. Do you realize he makes his shahada in salah EVERYTIME he prays??? You know "Ash hadu an la ilaha ilallah wa ash hadu anna muhammadan abduhu wa rasoolu."
So why is he afraid?? I DONT GET IT!!!! He's saying the shahada EVRYTIME he PRAYS :S Why not just make it public now?? There's no obedience to the creator in disobedience to Allah.

Btw, even born Muslims who never prayed or practised islam need to say it too. You are Muslim through your actions.
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AnonymousPoster
06-19-2009, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi

The girl could go marry a semi-practicing or non-practicing muslim and it wouldnt be haraam..sheikhs wouldnt have issues ordaining it... but she cant marry a devout and pious, godfearing man of faith who cannot convert due to his loyalty to his family? It just doesnt seem right.

Sister whats haraam is haraam! you cant make the haraam into halal, we gotta listen to the scholars of Islam since they have a better understanding and also the reason why the Sheikhs would allow the sister to marry a non practicing muslim man is because he is muslim! lol, if this dude dont embrace islam by shahada they cannot marry impossible?

i honestly dont get why theres any point to keep saying the same things over and over lol
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AnonymousPoster
06-19-2009, 04:03 PM
Tell the other sister does she want a wrong answer that will please her or does she want the correct answer?? stop jumping around the fact :thumbs_up
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rpwelton
06-19-2009, 04:36 PM
Please do us a favor and do not quote anything written by Robert Spencer in here. Do you think he has any credibility in the Muslim world?
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Khadijah0529
06-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum.

Forgive me if my question is somewhat different to some of the above discussions but I have no other recourse but to post it here. I have been checking different websites but cant find any answers. It needs to be answered in Shariah law and UK/US based law.

I left my christian husband because of marital abuse. One year after I discovered Islam and I reverted. I have started my annulment back in my home country were I got married. I met this brother and wants to marry me. Since I am a British citizen now, I applied for divorce against my ex-husband who is also a british citizen. Divorce proceedings will take 6 months. My fiance cant wait anymore and he wants to get married to me as soon as possible. Am I allowed to do nikkah with him while waiting for my final divorce papers? What does the Shariah says about this. He wants to get married ASAP so he can apply for spousal visa and take me to USA. Will the US embassy grant me visa - my fiance can fully support me and my kids to live with him.
Please, if you dont mind answering my questions as soon as possible. I am in a dilemma here. Both of us want to get married as soon as possible and avoid committing sins.
Jazakallah khair.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-19-2009, 05:46 PM
^^ I don't know what to say sister but I hope InshaAllah someone here can answer you swiftly. May Allah bless your marriage, Ameen :wub:

:sl:
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Sampharo
06-19-2009, 05:47 PM
Forgive me if my question is somewhat different to some of the above discussions but I have no other recourse but to post it here. I have been checking different websites but cant find any answers. It needs to be answered in Shariah law and UK/US based law.
As for the US and UK law it is not possible for me to help. As per Islamic permissibility, there is no argument as to whether you have been divorced from him. The difference between scholars is on the count of days (Edda) during which if he reverts to Islam, then your marriage would have been preserved. The Edda calculation without pregnancy is around 4 months and 10 days according to some, or three period cycles according to others. Assuming it is over already and your ex husband hasn't reverted to Islam, therefore you are free to marry the new brother Islamically in front of a judge or muslim community.

However scholars do always warn that in non-islamic countries the legal marriage is what counts to courts and government, and that needs to be disolved peacefully or legally even if it costs you. Saudi advisory Islamic board says it is permissible to negotiate with the non-muslim ex-husband and settle on something to make sure you get a speedy divorce on paper. Considering your situation you need to go through this if it is going to involve visa applications and legal marriage in front of US authorities.

But Islamically speaking it is consensus you can marry the person and make nikah as long as your count of days is over from your ex-husband. Travel arrangements and going through visa and US marriage stuff and whether they will accept something like that before you get your complete divorce is way beyond me.

As always God knows best.
Reply

ragdollcat1982
06-19-2009, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khadijah0529
Asalaamu Alaikum.

Forgive me if my question is somewhat different to some of the above discussions but I have no other recourse but to post it here. I have been checking different websites but cant find any answers. It needs to be answered in Shariah law and UK/US based law.

I left my christian husband because of marital abuse. One year after I discovered Islam and I reverted. I have started my annulment back in my home country were I got married. I met this brother and wants to marry me. Since I am a British citizen now, I applied for divorce against my ex-husband who is also a british citizen. Divorce proceedings will take 6 months. My fiance cant wait anymore and he wants to get married to me as soon as possible. Am I allowed to do nikkah with him while waiting for my final divorce papers? What does the Shariah says about this. He wants to get married ASAP so he can apply for spousal visa and take me to USA. Will the US embassy grant me visa - my fiance can fully support me and my kids to live with him.
Please, if you dont mind answering my questions as soon as possible. I am in a dilemma here. Both of us want to get married as soon as possible and avoid committing sins.
Jazakallah khair.

If you are still legally married to your ex husband and I use the term ex loosely because of legal purposes than you cannot get a spousal visa to enter the US to marry him because you are already legally married to another. If you did you could face fraud and bigamy charges.
Reply

Khadijah0529
06-19-2009, 07:22 PM
Jazakallah khair for all your answers. You have answered my questions and will inform the brother about the options that we have. InshaAllah everything will be sorted out fine.
Reply

Rie_Maya
06-19-2009, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Oops, hadn't noticed it was by him. Post has been deleted.
So the article is deleted becuase of someone's over-sensitivity.

here it is again - by a different author - hope that helps you!

Imam bridges a wedding divide
7:00am Saturday 6th June 2009

Comments (26) Have your say »

By Fran Bardsley »

MUSLIM women and their Christian fiancés from across Europe are travelling to Oxford to get married because imams in their own countries refuse to perform the ceremonies.

Dr Taj Hargey, chairman of the Muslim Education Centre of Oxford, said he had performed about 36 marriages in the past two years between Muslim women and non-Muslim men.

More imams are happy to marry Muslim men to non-Muslim women.

Couples from Spain, Germany, Sweden, Ireland, France and Norway have all come to Dr Hargey after failing to find someone locally prepared to carry out the service.

Most had spent months looking for an imam, and many found Dr Hargey after contacting American Muslim leaders via the Internet.

Dr Hargey, who believes he is the only imam in the UK who openly performs the mixed marriages, said: “We do it because there is no prohibition in the Koran.

“Islam allows Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women and such marriages are common, but I am one of the only people who will do it the other way round.”

He said couples had to sign up to five non-negotiable conditions protecting the woman’s faith, and agree to counselling before he would perform marriages.

Muslim Sana Majeed McMillion, 27, and Christian-born Andrew McMillion, 32, were married by Dr Hargey last night in Abingdon — a 1,500 mile round-trip from their home in Oslo.

Mr McMillion, an account manager for an IT company, said: “Generally speaking it seems to be totally accepted for men to marry non-Muslims, but not women.

“When we talked to Dr Taj we finally met someone who had a different understanding of that.”

The pair had a civil wedding in Oslo last July, but wanted a Muslim marriage contract and the blessing of Allah on their union.

Pakistan-born Mrs McMillion, who is expecting the couple’s first child, said her faith was “part and parcel” of who she was and added: “The rights set down in the Islamic contract are very precious. This is something really important to me.”

Dr Hargey said: “We have a social timebomb with Muslim women getting better educated than their male counterparts and becoming lawyers and doctors while the men are taxi drivers — the average woman is not going to find her partner from taxi-driving.”

Dr Hojjat Ramzy, a trustee at the Muslim Iqra School in Oxford and an Islamic registrar, said such marriages were not permitted in Islam.
Reply

rpwelton
06-19-2009, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rie_Maya
So the article is deleted becuase of someone's over-sensitivity.

here it is again - by a different author - hope that helps you!
You need to understand a few things here.

First off, it's not about over-sensitivity. If it was, there would be many members of this forum that would not be allowed to post here.

Secondly, the author of the article you posted the first time is one of the most prominent orientalists out there, and he has slandered the name of our Beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) numerous times. Are you really going to endorse his views by posting his articles?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-19-2009, 08:19 PM
So the article is deleted becuase of someone's over-sensitivity.
And where did u assume that? Why would we want an article by someone who defames rasoolAllah(saw)?

Perhaps u should not accuse others of being over sensitive, astaghfirullah.
Reply

sevgi
06-20-2009, 02:00 AM
Can we stay on topic? Thanks.

I understand what everyone is saying. I know it is haraam and Im not trying to make 'haraam' into 'halal'. Im just trying to figure out where this guy stands. Like, does he really fall into the non-muslim category even though he is the way he is. And im tryng to figure out the logic behind something which I fail to see logic in. Thats all. And I asked for your help.

And thank you all for your help. I havent found out the logic behind it still...maybe I should search elsewhere...

ws.
Reply

nebula
06-20-2009, 02:25 AM
Sister inshallah ill try helping,

he does fall into the category of Non-muslim since he has not said the shahada, if the sister can make him take it then he'll be a muslim but not forcing it down his throat ofcourse.

I don't quite understand why you cannot see the logic behind why Allah has forbidden a muslim Women to Marry a non-muslim man, the reasons are endless, it doesnt matter if hes acting like a muslim he aint one, hes a wannabe untill he takes the shahada lol.

asalaamalaykum ya ukht
Reply

nebula
06-20-2009, 02:26 AM
Maybe you should direct your question to a proper sheikh or something since you can't understand the logic.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
06-20-2009, 02:29 AM
A reversion for the purposes marrying someone is void.

If I was a non-Muslim, and I wanted to marry a Christian girl whos parents forbid her from marrying a non-christian, it is obvious that I will convert for the marriage. No matter how much I say "I love Christianity, Im ready to live like one, I'd love to go to Church etc etc". My migration was for the girl. That was the catalyst so the conversion is void. (note that this is a metaphor for the Islamic version)

You must be careful not to try and make up reasons to convince yourself that the haram is halal. Similarly, if he loves you, do you really think that his reversion is valid after you had brought it up as a condition for marriage with you?

We have said this many many times on this forum. Life is a test. Love is no different. Allah is your creator and his. Do you think that He will not provide you with something better? You can't fall into the mindset that "Hes the only one,theres noone like him" Because there is. There always is.


Whoever abandons something for the sake of Allaah,
He will replace it for him with something better than it
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-20-2009, 02:43 AM
I honestly do not see what is illogical about what was said. Why oh why would u want to marry someone who is not Muslim. And btw, u havent addressed my post. I'd love an answer to that.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
06-20-2009, 02:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nebula
Sister inshallah ill try helping,

he does fall into the category of Non-muslim since he has not said the shahada, if the sister can make him take it then he'll be a muslim but not forcing it down his throat ofcourse.

I don't quite understand why you cannot see the logic behind why Allah has forbidden a muslim Women to Marry a non-muslim man, the reasons are endless, it doesnt matter if hes acting like a muslim he aint one, hes a wannabe untill he takes the shahada lol.

asalaamalaykum ya ukht

Look at you. So desperate are you guys to fill primal urges that you forget that point of our deen.

What contradiction! If the sister can make him say it???!! But not force it of course!:rollseyes

He should say it without any prodding. He has refused to say it. Move on. It's astounding how fast people are willing to sacrifice their standing in the hereafter.

Now that people have to walk the walk instead of talking the talk all of a sudden morals can be compromised.
Reply

Sampharo
06-20-2009, 04:30 AM
Not withstanding my agreement with that this whole situation seems to be twisting things around to make them marry no matter what, as if "convincing" us is somehow going to warp Islamic principals, I just wanted to clarify that converting for the sole purpose of marriage is acceptable with proof from the prophet and the companions. Talha wanted to marry Umm Salama who insisted he convert to Islam, and said that him joining Islam would be her dowry. He did, and the prophet married them.

Reverting to Islam however in that case needs to be complete and not a sham, as in the person will have to perform all prayers and commit to worship of muslims, not lead a muslim "lifestyle" as in be a good person and that's it.

As for the poster of "Dr Hargey" and his "couples", were you not able get a clue from the part that said "Couples from Spain, Germany, Sweden, Ireland, France and Norway have all come to Dr Hargey after failing to find someone locally prepared to carry out the service"? If across the entirity of Europe with all the innovators, misguided ones and liberals that must be there by percentage in a community of over 50 million muslims they couldn't find ONE to accept that hogwash, where do you get the logic of posting the article here as if it lends permissibility to the concept?

As for it not being in the Quran, completely false:

"( فَإِنْ عَلِمْتُمُوهُنَّ مُؤْمِنَاتٍ فَلا تَرْجِعُوهُنَّ إِلَى الْكُفَّارِ لا هُنَّ حِلٌّ لَهُمْ وَلا هُمْ يَحِلُّونَ لَهُنَّ وَآتُوهُمْ مَا أَنْفَقُوا وَلا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْ تَنْكِحُوهُنَّ إِذَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَلا تُمْسِكُوا بِعِصَمِ الْكَوَافِرِ)"
"if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. they are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them. But pay the Unbelievers what they have spent (on their dower), and there will be no blame on you if ye marry them on payment of their dower to them." [60:10]

Not to mention the incredibly extensive direct dictation from hadith and sunnah as well as actual practice of muslims from the prophet's days until this day and the illegality of it in all even civil courts of all muslim countries.

He converts and starts praying and commits to fasting and zakat and pilgrimage, they can marry. He doesn't, they can continue to do whatever they wish but Islamically her situation will be adultery every day of her life, and any children will illegitimate. Muslim "Lifestyle" is not sufficient in any way.


Reply

Al-Zaara
06-20-2009, 10:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
Can we stay on topic? Thanks.

I understand what everyone is saying. I know it is haraam and Im not trying to make 'haraam' into 'halal'. Im just trying to figure out where this guy stands. Like, does he really fall into the non-muslim category even though he is the way he is. And im tryng to figure out the logic behind something which I fail to see logic in. Thats all. And I asked for your help.

And thank you all for your help. I havent found out the logic behind it still...maybe I should search elsewhere...

ws.
Logic in what exactly? He does fall as not being Muslim category, but it doesn't make him a worse person for it. Though it does make him not validate to marry her, because ultimatelly, one should obey Allah.


I also started wondering what sister Light of Heaven said. Does he pray the way we pray? Then he is indeed saying the shahada, but I think there are needed witnesses.

If Sheikhs let a sister marry a non-practicing Muslim guy then they obviously are doing wrong in the sense of the good for the girl, as well as the sister herself and her family to allow such.

He is grown up. He doesn't want to 'betray his family', why does he want her to betray her religion, which he also says to follow? The obedience to Allah is above the obedience to the family, that's the reality, how much it even might hurt us. I would have wanted to see how you would reply to my post, but I still think you might have to re-read some posts her anyway.
Reply

Pomak
06-20-2009, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
Can we stay on topic? Thanks.

I understand what everyone is saying. I know it is haraam and Im not trying to make 'haraam' into 'halal'. Im just trying to figure out where this guy stands. Like, does he really fall into the non-muslim category even though he is the way he is. And im tryng to figure out the logic behind something which I fail to see logic in. Thats all. And I asked for your help.

And thank you all for your help. I havent found out the logic behind it still...maybe I should search elsewhere...

ws.
IF he believes in Allah and his messengers and disbelieves the shirk of other religions(aka Isa a.s. is not god) then he is a believer, but that doesn't mean he can marry her. The whole conversion thing is about public declaration.

So you should advice him to be a man and do it. He doesn't need to wear a turban and to break it to his family but he needs to say it in front of 2 people.

Btw if he wants to fulfill the fard of going to hajj you need a conversion certificate so he should do it at a major mosque. My advice is Galipoli, since that is in your hood.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
06-20-2009, 01:26 PM
By the way, how is it noble for him not to revert because of loyalty to his parents? Obviously this is more important to him than loyalty to Allah.

Have you forgotten the first Muslims had to fight their families when they reverted? Have you forgotten that they were the best generation?

This thread is getting nonsensical. That sister has gotten her answer. It is haram. Moreover, that bad influence is affecting the sister asking the question.

To think, she says "what harm can he be to her children?" Well so far she loves a guy who thinks Islam is illogical and backward, who picks and chooses things from other religons, and who values his family over faith.

She has already been corrupted. I can only imagine what would happen to their children. imsad
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-20-2009, 03:19 PM
Btw, if Shahada was not a big deal and we went by the thinking that it's ok for him "not" to say, then it would not have been a criteria...and still I want an answer to my post.
Reply

Yanal
06-20-2009, 04:56 PM
:sl:
No matter how he loves Islam ,he cannot convert because of circumstances still making him a non-muslim,and if the Muslim sister married that non-muslim that will be haaram and her love between her religion and her husband is bound to get tested. If after this haraam marriage his family convinces him to make his wife into a Christian ,then what will she do?
Reply

anonymous
06-20-2009, 11:45 PM
:sl:,

Sister sevgi or anyone confused about this issue, please read this (an excerpt from a longer article):

"In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Inter-marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims is something that has been clearly prohibited in the Quran and Sunnah, thus not permissible in any way. The only exception to this general rule is the marriage of Muslim men with Christian and Jewish girls, and that also with certain conditions.

...

A question may arise here, that if the difference between Muslims and people of the book is considered to be lighter as compared to other faiths, then why is it unlawful for Muslim girls to marry Christian and Jewish men?

The answer to this question is that, women are somewhat weak and emotional by nature. Then the husband has been given a caretaking and controlling role over the wife. As such, it is very likely that the Muslim wife may fall prey and become impressed with her husband's faith. The chances of the husband becoming affected by his wife's faith are remote, thus the difference between the two situations is clear.

Moreover, by marrying a Christian or a Jewish man, the status of the Muslim wife would be affected, for the wife normally takes the nationality and status given by her husband�s law. A Christian or a Jewish woman marrying a Muslim man would be expected eventually to accept Islam, while the possibility of a Muslim woman changing her faith to that of her husband is very likely. Therefore, only Muslim men were given this permission of marrying with women from the people of the book.

Secondly, women who are Christians and Jews merely by name, and do not really believe in any religion, like a large number of people in the west, cannot be termed as people of the book (ahl al-Kitab). They are atheist in reality and it will not be permissible for Muslim men to marry them.

Therefore, one must first make sure that the woman is truly a believing Christian or Jew, and then consider contracting marriage with them.

Thirdly, it should be remembered that the meaning of the permission of marrying Christian and Jewish women is simply that, if a marriage contract was performed with them, it would be valid according to Islam and the children born out of this wedlock will be considered legitimate.

However, there are various narrations that establish its undesirability. A Muslim man is advised in the Hadith to select a life partner who fully observes the injunctions of Islam, so that she becomes a means of attaining piety. If that is the case, then marrying Christian and Jewish girls would be disliked.

This is the reason why Sayyiduna Umar ibn al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) prevented many such marriages in his lifetime because of what he had seen of the corruption that resulted in Iraq and Syria. (See: Muhammad ibn al-Hasan, Kitab al-Athar).

Finally, this permission is only when one is confident that he himself or his children will not be affected by this marriage. In the early days, Muslims were duly equipped with adequate Islamic knowledge and an unshaken commitment towards their religion. As such, there was no risk of the husband being affected by his wife�s religion. Rather, the wife would see the glory of Islam, thus enter into the fold of Islam.

Therefore, if a Muslim male is confident that marriage with a Christian or Jewish girl will have no affect on his and his children�s Islamic identity and commitment, then there is no bar against such marriages. However, if he is not so confident, he must avoid entering into such marriages.

And Allah knows best"

:w:
Reply

anonymous
06-20-2009, 11:57 PM
Just to add: personally Id marry rather marry a Muslim girl any day! The idea of marrying a kafir who does not worship the same Lord as me or appreciates Allah and Islam the way we do is just BLERGH! the fact that she is not grateful to Allah the way we are would be a major put off.

May Allah guide your friend and all of us, ameen.

:w:
Reply

Salahudeen
06-21-2009, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
By the way, how is it noble for him not to revert because of loyalty to his parents? Obviously this is more important to him than loyalty to Allah.

Have you forgotten the first Muslims had to fight their families when they reverted? Have you forgotten that they were the best generation?

This thread is getting nonsensical. That sister has gotten her answer. It is haram. Moreover, that bad influence is affecting the sister asking the question.

To think, she says "what harm can he be to her children?" Well so far she loves a guy who thinks Islam is illogical and backward, who picks and chooses things from other religons, and who values his family over faith.

She has already been corrupted. I can only imagine what would happen to their children. imsad
I agree with anti, What's to talk about, it's haraam. If you don't like it cos it doesn't agree with your desires tough, Islam is submission to Allah's will, it's allah's will that the muslim women doesn't marry the man who hasn't taken shahada so what is your problem?
Reply

Nooralhuda
08-12-2022, 05:38 AM
haram all the way
Reply

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