Is Europe's future Christian?

[Uthman]

Link: Is Europe's future Christian?

[Uthman]

Monday's response:

Grace Davie: Europe has been changed fundamentally by an influx of peoples from around the world. But faith, and Christian faith, remain part of its basic character

[Uthman]

Tuesday's Response

[KAding]

Only God knows! :P

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[KAding]

Some interesting points in both articles, I agree with this in particular (from 'Tuesday response'):

Europeans, moreover, should ensure that there is a place in their societies for those who take faith seriously, whatever that faith might be. These people will still be disproportionately Christian, but in ways rather different from their forebears. Little will be gained, conversely, by denying the realities of the past, by contempt for the seriously religious, and by the (sometimes deliberate) cultivation of ignorance about faiths of any kind.

Non-believers in Europe should be careful not to fall for 'secular fundamentalism', whereby they get all worked up about religious expressions in the form of headscarfs, preaching or even something like homophobia. Live and let live please, in other words don't follow the French example! :)

[Strzelecki]

No, insha'Allah.
Alhamdulillah.

[Foxhole]

Some interesting points in both articles, I agree with this in particular (from 'Tuesday response'):



Non-believers in Europe should be careful not to fall for 'secular fundamentalism', whereby they get all worked up about religious expressions in the form of headscarfs, preaching or even something like homophobia. Live and let live please, in other words don't follow the French example! :)

In other words, they should allow free religious practice, while maintaining secular governing and legal systems. Kind of like in the US.

That might fly with you and me, and probably with many Muslims on this board. But for other Muslims, the goal of establishing and enforcing Islamic law must be pursued, even if peacefully over time, wherever Muslims live. This is a fundamental incompatibility that must be confronted sooner than later, and cannot be talked around.

[Amadeus85]

Assuming that majority of europeans stopped practicing about 30 years ago, and christian civilization exists there since more than 1 thousand years I have good reason to claim that it will be either christian or no Europe.

[Clover]

I don't think so. I think Muslims will eventually be the norm in Europe, probably not in a decade, but maybe in 2-3 decades. I personally, hope they keep a lot of their basic art ideals, and don't adopt all of the Muslim art. For instance, I am a killer for Gothic style cathedrals, they look amazing to me.

[suffiyan007]

is depend on you....! is u wanna make used islam in Europe....but depend on God also...all in His will....the Qadar and Qadha...of Allah.

all had written in Lahuz mahfuz...insyaallah.

[Blackpool]

I think Europe will continue to be secularist. Secularism is rising much faster than any religion. As I have stated, there have been a fair few "muslims" that have come over to the UK and drop their religious practices, though they still label themselves "muslims."

[Thinker]

Europe is de facto, historically and predominantly culturally Christian but will (IMHO) become increasingly secular. Those that are committed to a religion (as most here are) appear to believe that it is a choice of this religion or that rather than none. It is also a fact that, in the world, religion has had and continues to have a greater influence amongst the uneducated and information deprived populations; the reason for that is obvious. It is also a fact that, in the history of the world, more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. It was that way in Europe 500 years ago and the reason it is not that way now is because of education, access to information and freedom of expression. As long as people are educated and have access to uncensored information and are free to think you will always get the vast majority reverting to the natural inclination of mankind which is to strive towards increasing their material benefits, improving the conditions in which they live and pursuing those things that interest and comfort them. The Taliban know this and that’s why they are destroying schools.

The phenomena we see today in the rise in Islamic fundamentalism will only survive amongst populations deprived of education and freedom.

[Zafran]

Europe is de facto, historically and predominantly culturally Christian but will (IMHO) become increasingly secular. Those that are committed to a religion (as most here are) appear to believe that it is a choice of this religion or that rather than none. It is also a fact that, in the world, religion has had and continues to have a greater influence amongst the uneducated and information deprived populations; the reason for that is obvious. It is also a fact that, in the history of the world, more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. It was that way in Europe 500 years ago and the reason it is not that way now is because of education, access to information and freedom of expression. As long as people are educated and have access to uncensored information and are free to think you will always get the vast majority reverting to the natural inclination of mankind which is to strive towards increasing their material benefits, improving the conditions in which they live and pursuing those things that interest and comfort them. The Taliban know this and that’s why they are destroying schools.
The phenomena we see today in the rise in Islamic fundamentalism will only survive amongst populations deprived of education and freedom.

First of all yes europes future is secularsits/ right wing.

and secodanly no the taliban dont care about those things you have stated at all and are not destorying the swat area because they know about what you have stated below -

The Taliban know this and that’s why they are destroying schools.

the reasons are very simple - they think they are right and see the "new" things as destroying what they stand for - preety simple as that. They are also against the occupation fullstop and cant stand the invasions.

education is a broad term - its also a form of indoctrination of whatever system of education it may be eg - Islamic or communist or western or Facist - maybe destroying the schools is a reaction to western occupation and they see it as a negative indoctrination to the people and there pasthun culture.

Your post also seems like something Bush would say "they are against our freedoms" which is well known now that its not realy the case at all.

It is also a fact that, in the history of the world, more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. It was that way in Europe 500 years ago and the reason it is not that way now is because of education, access to information and freedom of expression.

Yes religion as acted as an oppresive agent in many parts of the world including in europe historically but most people have been killed in the name of communism, facism and liberal democracy - the 20th century was a secular atheist century and more people have died in the wars (ww1/ww2) then any wars ever fought - we are talking in a few decades becasue of the ability to kill people easily in the modern era as also created the world as an unsafe and far more dangerous place.

For exmaple in europe jews were persected historically for a long time but you couldnt kill people as systematically and as efficently until the Nazis came who were educated enough to make gas chambers and many other mass crazy ideas - they commited a terrible thing - thanks to modern technology which could not be achieved without "education".

IMO people need to learn some serious morals otherwise we are all in trobule.

[Amadeus85]

Europe is de facto, historically and predominantly culturally Christian but will (IMHO) become increasingly secular. Those that are committed to a religion (as most here are) appear to believe that it is a choice of this religion or that rather than none. It is also a fact that, in the world, religion has had and continues to have a greater influence amongst the uneducated and information deprived populations; the reason for that is obvious. It is also a fact that, in the history of the world, more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason.
.

One of my proffesors who teach about medieval, said that in those times, when religion ruled the minds of the people and the kingdoms, during a war some cruel acts sometimes did happen, but never on a mass scale. When people believed in God, they did attack fiercly armed enemies, but didnt attack civilians. After the enlightment we had first concentration camps (in french Wandea during the Revolution), first total war (with attacking civilians as one of ways of fightings) - in American Civil War, in a country built by enlightment rules. Then two children of enlightment and rationalism, communism and german racism created biggest hecatombs ever seen. So if we have a progress, its surely a progress in dehumanization of a person and progress in killing.

[Zafran]

One of my proffesors who teach about medieval, said that in those times, when religion ruled the minds of the people and the kingdoms, during a war some cruel acts sometimes did happen, but never on a mass scale. When people believed in God, they did attack fiercly armed enemies, but didnt attack civilians. After the enlightment we had first concentration camps (in french Wandea during the Revolution), first total war (with attacking civilians as one of ways of fightings) - in American Civil War, in a country built by enlightment rules. Then two children of enlightment and rationalism, communism and german racism created biggest hecatombs ever seen. So if we have a progress, its surely a progress in dehumanization of a person and progress in killing.

I agree with you on this - the religous wars were not as nasty and brutal as modern wars - especially when you campare them with the facist, French revolution, 2 world wars etc - holocaust - those were just on a crazy scale

a note on education and religious people in the past were not just uneducated stupid people - even in europe you had people like Thomas Aqunais - and if we go to the medieveal Islamic world eg spain you had people like Ibn Rushd, al Farabi and Zuhr. For the jewish end Momiedes - these were educated religous people.

You also had the code of chivellry in europe and a similar concept in the islamic world.

[Yanal]

:salamext:
As the responses are it is hard to tell because the responses depend on the person who is asked,if it does happen if inshAllah it does not,you(all forum members in england) can come here to my house:).

:salamext:

[Suomipoika]

One of my proffesors who teach about medieval, said that in those times, when religion ruled the minds of the people and the kingdoms, during a war some cruel acts sometimes did happen, but never on a mass scale. When people believed in God, they did attack fiercly armed enemies, but didnt attack civilians. After the enlightment we had first concentration camps (in french Wandea during the Revolution), first total war (with attacking civilians as one of ways of fightings) - in American Civil War, in a country built by enlightment rules. Then two children of enlightment and rationalism, communism and german racism created biggest hecatombs ever seen. So if we have a progress, its surely a progress in dehumanization of a person and progress in killing.

When medieval armies invaded, it usually involved a lot of mass scale raping, pillaging and indiscriminate killing, the first most notable examples that come to my mind being the fall of Constantinople and Jerusalem and the total slaughter of Carthago where it simply ceased to exist after its revolt. The slaughter of Latins by Byzantines, the slaughter of Cyprus by Ottomans.

Slaughtering jews wasn't exactly something Hitler invented, both muslims and christians have proud history of doing that during medieval times. Id suggest reading about Al-Andalus and Southern Spain, before and after Reconquista or what Crusader armies did in France and Germany before going to Jerusalem.

Not to mention after the spread of reformation the various European religious wars where sometimes even hole communities were wiped out of existence simply because of wrong religion.

[Zafran]

When medieval armies invaded, it usually involved a lot of mass scale raping, pillaging and indiscriminate killing, the first most notable examples that come to my mind being the fall of Constantinople and Jerusalem and the total slaughter of Carthago where it simply ceased to exist after its revolt. The slaughter of Latins by Byzantines, the slaughter of Cyprus by Ottomans.

Slaughtering jews wasn't exactly something Hitler invented, both muslims and christians have proud history of doing that during medieval times. Id suggest reading about Al-Andalus and Southern Spain, before and after Reconquista or what Crusader armies did in France and Germany before going to Jerusalem.

Not to mention after the spread of reformation the various European religious wars where sometimes even hole communities were wiped out of existence simply because of wrong religion.

Thats all great - i also believe you exageeratted the Al - Andlaus - there were periods of hostilty but the Jews were treaty relatively well in Mulsim lands oddly - this is even admitted by the Jewsih people themselves. Do you know where the Jews ran after the Reconquista? - the idea of mass pogroms were common in christain medieval europe thats well known. There was occasional distrust with other religions in muslim lands but only in certian periods.

Furthermore you also have non religous age which is the 21st century which has killed many people quickly and more faster then ever seen before. thanks to new innovative mass murdering weapons - Just in few decades 90 million (2 wars) were killed thanks to nationalism, Facism, communism and liberal democracy and there new toys - I'm sure we can add up the deaths the rapes, indiscrimante killing and pillaging too.

Just like to add there is no comparision with the recent wars and the wars of the past - the scale of mass murder now and in the modern period in general is unreal.

[Suomipoika]

Thats all great - i also believe you exageeratted the Al - Andlaus - there were periods of hostilty but the Jews were treaty relatively well in Mulsim lands oddly - this is even admitted by the Jewsih people themselves. Do you know where the Jews ran after the Reconquista? - the idea of mass pogroms were common in christain medieval europe thats well known. There was occasional distrust with other religions in muslim lands but only in certian periods.

I do know where many Jews ran after the Spanish Inquisition, however where Jews ran for their lives hardly changes the fact that during the Muslim rule in southern Spain there were slaughtering of Jews where sometimes quite large number of Jewish families were killed. That may be relatively well treatment compared to Christians, but Id hardly call that lack of mass action against civilians by the religious medieval people.

Furthermore you also have non religous age which is the 21st century which has killed many people quickly and more faster then ever seen before. thanks to new innovative mass murdering weapons - Just in few decades 90 million (2 wars) were killed thanks to nationalism, Facism, communism and liberal democracy and there new toys - I'm sure we can add up the deaths the rapes, indiscrimante killing and pillaging too.

Just like to add there is no comparision with the recent wars and the wars of the past - the scale of mass murder now and in the modern period in general is unreal.

Perhaps because there was not so much people back then than there is in modern period? When the medieval chivalry code honoring knights went to slaughter hole cities, they didn't stop because they were more kind and moral but because at 6 000 rather than at 6 000 000 they had ran out of people to kill. 90 million dead people in Medieval period would have meant very empty Europe.

But I'm not arguing that people or modern wars are in anyway better than when they were more guided by religion. I just wanted to point out the falsehood of this romantic notion that people were somehow better and less bloodthirsty than today when religion ruled the minds of people and kingdoms.

[Zafran]

[

QUOTE=Suomipoika;1162581]I do know where many Jews ran after the Spanish Inquisition, however where Jews ran for their lives hardly changes the fact that during the Muslim rule in southern Spain there were slaughtering of Jews where sometimes quite large number of Jewish families were killed. That may be relatively well treatment compared to Christians, but Id hardly call that lack of mass action against civilians by the religious medieval people.

I need example of this - the only thing i can think of is the Almiriovids - which is only a small part of Al Andlanus history - Al Andlaus is even used as dialogue between muslims, Jews and christains in europe. Jews even had an intellectual growth under the muslims. What ever it must have been nothing at a scale of pograms is europe.

Perhaps because there was not so much people back then than there is in modern period? When the medieval chivalry code honoring knights went to slaughter hole cities, they didn't stop because they were more kind and moral but because at 6 000 rather than at 6 000 000 they had ran out of people to kill. 90 million dead people in Medieval period would have meant very empty Europe.

True but the weapons today do far more damage then they ever did before and even the sort of weapons that are used in modern times in europe are far worser. The nazis, the british bombing of dresden and the communist invasion of Poland and Germnay was realy bad - indiscrimnate killings, concentration camps/ gas chambers - mass rape and pillaging with worse weapons.

But I'm not arguing that people or modern wars are in anyway better than when they were more guided by religion. I just wanted to point out the falsehood of this romantic notion that people were somehow better and less bloodthirsty than today when religion ruled the minds of people and kingdoms.

I would rater say that its people that actually create the problems expecailly when the morals are forgotton - furthermore there were good times in history under religion too it wasnt all "dark age" - nobody was painting a romantic pitcure just that religion isnt all bad atleast in certain times it wasnt - anything can be used for horror by humans however.

[Suomipoika]

I need example of this - the only thing i can think of is the Almiriovids

I don't really remember who ruled then, I just remember during the 11th (this might be wrong too) century there were massacres of various sizes in muslim controlled Spain.

I found this from the evil and false wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

No, the scale was nothing like in Christian Europe, and yes, at times they treated Jews better. I don't really see the relevance of these facts tho. The arguement wasn't which ones during Europe's history killed Jews more, Muslims or Christians but that they both did so and indiscriminately.

True but the weapons today do far more damage then they ever did before and even the sort of weapons that are used in modern times in europe are far worser. The nazis, the british bombing of dresden and the communist invasion of Poland and Germnay was realy bad - indiscrimnate killings, concentration camps/ gas chambers - mass rape and pillaging with worse weapons.

Errr? How does better weaponry change the morality of the issue? How is bombarding city with a catapult morally different than bombarding it with a howitzer? How is the mass rape and pillaging with less worse weapons any more better? Besides the main weapon used in rape, mass or otherwise, hasn't really changed from medieval period.

As a side note I cannot think of a such widespread refrain from rape from large armies from Medieval period as the US and UK army conquering Germany in WW2.

[Pomak]

It is also a fact that, in the world, religion has had and continues to have a greater influence amongst the uneducated and information deprived populations

Not really, this is a theory the USSR developed and which has been demolished by the facts on the ground after the wall fell.

[Pomak]

Slaughtering jews wasn't exactly something Hitler invented, both muslims and christians have proud history of doing that during medieval times.

Invent whatever lies you want. Fact is that there are examples of Jews praying for Muslim victories in the pre-modern period, so you insinuation of any "pride" about killing of Jews is just slander.

[Zafran]

[QUOTE]

I don't really remember who ruled then, I just remember during the 11th (this might be wrong too) century there were massacres of various sizes in muslim controlled Spain.

I found this from the evil and false wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre

No, the scale was nothing like in Christian Europe, and yes, at times they treated Jews better. I don't really see the relevance of these facts tho. The arguement wasn't which ones during Europe's history killed Jews more, Muslims or Christians but that they both did so and indiscriminately.

ah yes good old Bernard Lewis - not realy sure about him anyway.

Errr? How does better weaponry change the morality of the issue? How is bombarding city with a catapult morally different than bombarding it with a howitzer? How is the mass rape and pillaging with less worse weapons any more better? Besides the main weapon used in rape, mass or otherwise, hasn't really changed from medieval period.

As a side note I cannot think of a such widespread refrain from rape from large armies from Medieval period as the US and UK army conquering Germany in WW2.

well the US army did some horrible things in the Vietnam war - I'm sure we can get loads of example from refrain from rape - it didnt ahppen in every medieval war now did it - which would be realy hard to believe.

Furthermore the damage of a sword, a knife, axe even a bow or realy simple tools - even with a catapult - it was preety much fair game in the past.

Now you have a monoploy of airforce power, nuclear power, mechine guns navy.

I'll give you an example airforce of the US agaisnt the innocent Iraqis with no airforce - massive gap.


it was forbidden to use fire in the early Islamic conquests - today most weapons create fire especially when you take bombs inconsideration.- In reality the age we are living in doesnt realy have no moral grounds whats so ever - they even invented names like "collateral damge" to justify indiscrimnate killing - "friednly fire" to kill your own soldiers accidently atleast there wernt that many "friendly fires" in the past.

The past there was way more balance in warfare - a sword v a sword - today its just monoploy of a few powerhouses huge gap - this age has trangressed many limits that the prevous people wouldnt believe.

[Zafran]

Invent whatever lies you want. Fact is that there are examples of Jews praying for Muslim victories in the pre-modern period, so you insinuation of any "pride" about killing of Jews is just slander.

salaam - this also true some Jews even prayed for Muslim victories as it was better then the previous regime.

[Suomipoika]

ah yes good old Bernard Lewis - not realy sure about him anyway.

Attack the messenger, not the message? Well, there are plenty of other historians/authors listed there.

Furthermore the damage of a sword, a knife, axe even a bow or realy simple tools - even with a catapult - it was preety much fair game in the past.

How is killing a child with a bomb from airplane worse than killing him with a catapult stone? How is that fair game?

this age has trangressed many limits that the prevous people wouldnt believe.

I know, I can only wonder how the face of a medieval knight would look like when getting from his own side a life long prison sentence for raping and killing some peasant girl.

Invent whatever lies you want. Fact is that there are examples of Jews praying for Muslim victories in the pre-modern period, so you insinuation of any "pride" about killing of Jews is just slander.

With so much history, one doesn't really exclude the other.

[جوري]

Is Europe's future Christian?

in a nutshell NO!

it will be a battle between secularism and Islam!

:w:

[Zafran]

[QUOTE]

Attack the messenger, not the message? Well, there are plenty of other historians/authors listed there.

Ok - i'll check there bias.

How is killing a child with a bomb from airplane worse than killing him with a catapult stone? How is that fair game?

and airplane is far less accurate and kills more people and is used for that killing people - how many people can a catpult kill - they were actually used to destroy walls.

Fair game? a sword vs sword is fair game - is bombming any army that has no airforce fair game? or having nukes and threatning to use them on non nuclear states fair game? or a nation with a navy going agiant a nation with no navy? theres a huge gap now in the world it wasnt like that in the middle ages it was preety fair army vs army - now you have bombs vs humans. The gap is huge and unfair in battle.

I know, I can only wonder how the face of a medieval knight would look like when getting from his own side a life long prison sentence for raping and killing some peasant girl.

many people have raped and killed and gotton away it just because we have no clue if they did it or not - even war crimianls that lie about going to war in the US have gotton away with war crimes.

[Thinker]

education is a broad term - its also a form of indoctrination of whatever system of education it may be eg - Islamic or communist or western or Facist - maybe destroying the schools is a reaction to western occupation and they see it as a negative indoctrination to the people and there pasthun culture.

Your post also seems like something Bush would say "they are against our freedoms" which is well known now that its not realy the case at all.

Where did George Bush come into this?

Of course education can and is used as a form of indoctrination - I saw a news clip some time back of young children in Gaza being taught maths "if there were ten Israeli soldiers and three were killed by mujahadeen how many would be left?" And, I cringe at the thought of the curriculum set by the Taliban.

I was careful to include together with education "access to uncensored information and are free to think."

Students in China are being educated but from what I see on the news they do not have full access to uncensored information and are not free to discuss what they think.

As long as people have access to uncensored news and are free to discuss their beliefs and ideas and have been received sufficiently education to do that, sense will prevail and we will reach a consensus.

[Clover]

I doubt Europe will become anymore Christian than it is, unless the RCC organized some sort of spiritual thing for it, which I doubt it will do.

[Zafran]

Of course education can and is used as a form of indoctrination - I saw a news clip some time back of young children in Gaza being taught maths "if there were ten Israeli soldiers and three were killed by mujahadeen how many would be left?" And, I cringe at the thought of the curriculum set by the Taliban.

Let me guess you saw that on sky news:rollseyes or one of the mainstream media channels where they dont show you both sides of the stories right?
Is that uncensored and objective news or a form of indoctirination in its own right?

As long as people have access to uncensored news and are free to discuss their beliefs and ideas and have been received sufficiently education to do that, sense will prevail and we will reach a consensus.

No the first thing they have to learn is solid morals so they dont use things to harm people for no reason and establish what they want in life. You just gave me a stroy which i can easily guess is not from "uncensored news" yet you believe its going to solve the problem in the other side of the world??

discussing different beliefs and ideas isnt going to solve anything - it may even divide the people never mind forming a consensus which is another indoctrinating tool - most of the time people conform to the majoirty culture anyway.

[جوري]

Where did George Bush come into this?

Of course education can and is used as a form of indoctrination - I saw a news clip some time back of young children in Gaza being taught maths "if there were ten Israeli soldiers and three were killed by mujahadeen how many would be left?" And, I cringe at the thought of the curriculum set by the Taliban.

I was careful to include together with education "access to uncensored information and are free to think."

Students in China are being educated but from what I see on the news they do not have full access to uncensored information and are not free to discuss what they think.

As long as people have access to uncensored news and are free to discuss their beliefs and ideas and have been received sufficiently education to do that, sense will prevail and we will reach a consensus.

People in the west have all kinds of free access to all sorts of information, yet the majority would rather yield in to what the repuke con news forcibly indoctrinates them into believing, they have more books, but the books go unread.. I think some of the most ignorant people I have encountered were the westerners who have never taken a trip outside their zone...

If someone had a desire to be a free thinker they'd do so in spite of their circumstance, I rather hazard ask why, with all the resources available to westerners they still lag behind in so many ways, moral, social, political...

when folks don't have enough resources, you feel sorry for them and you try to establish whatever means to help them get their hands on what they need, however, when everything is available, what then remains an excuse, for hatred, insolence, ignorance and indoctrination.

I attended junior high school here, high school, undergraduate and graduate school, the students who did consistently well, were the foreign kids, whether oriental, middle eastern or Indian, it wasn't the guy from Alabama or the gal from queens NY.

I think rather than focusing on the curriculum of the taliban (if one in fact exists) it is better to focus on the home front.. the west has been whittling itself away trying to reform the world to what it deems appropriate and has been rather neglectful to its.. the decadent happy few westerners are a handful in comparison and I hazard ask how many if at all after one too many ponzi schemes.. pls come take a look at inner city kids in NY or any other U.S city, and judge better whether that money needs to be spend on wars and foreign reformation or educating some of these gangsters and future snipers, to whom the money of hard working individuals gets funneled whether to foster their life in prison, or life outside of prison.

all the best

[glo]

First of all yes europes future is secularsits/ right wing.

Just to clarify, Zafran, do you equate secularism with right wing politics?

[Zafran]

Just to clarify, Zafran, do you equate secularism with right wing politics?

Secularism can be right wing but not always.

[Thinker]

discussing different beliefs and ideas isnt going to solve anything

Amazing!!

[Zafran]

Amazing!!

wow shocking you find it Amazing:rollseyes

[Clover]

wow shocking you find it Amazing:rollseyes

Amazing!!

Come on guys, don't be mad, get glad.

1, 2; 1-2-3: Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends? lol

[Amadeus85]

I think that Europe A.D 2050 will look very close to nowadays Israel. Similar big minorities, militarization of the streets and cities, leaving behind the democratic standards, religious and national radicalism on both sides, ongoing fear and feeling of danger.

[Zafran]

I think that Europe A.D 2050 will look very close to nowadays Israel. Similar big minorities, militarization of the streets and cities, leaving behind the democratic standards, religious and national radicalism on both sides, ongoing fear and feeling of danger.

You mean Palestine right? - If its going to be anything like that region then dont worry Isreal has the tanks, war heads and missles and also has the abilty to control resources comming in and out of the area.

So the majority will still rule even if it means by militery - furthermore you gave a bad analogy about palestine and Isreal - as the whole region has had a unstable history starting from the British conquest after the defeat of the Ottomans ironically - very different then europe even being remotely like it.

Your also forgetting one very simple thing that the most secularised muslim country in the world is also close to europe - Turkey.

[Thinker]

discussing different beliefs and ideas isnt going to solve anything

I have just watched two TV programmes (Aljazeera and Panorama) on Iran. It is illegal for Iranians to have satellite TV yet at least 30% of the population break the law to get access to international news, the state TV did not broadcast ‘Obama’s message to the Muslim World’ and the state has ‘filters’ on the internet. This is an example of the point I have tried to make, the state fears the possibility of the people having access to all the information on which they might decide who/what is right and who/what is wrong. How can anyone give a good reasoned argument supporting such censorship?

[Zafran]

I have just watched two TV programmes (Aljazeera and Panorama) on Iran. It is illegal for Iranians to have satellite TV yet at least 30% of the population break the law to get access to international news, the state TV did not broadcast ‘Obama’s message to the Muslim World’ and the state has ‘filters’ on the internet. This is an example of the point I have tried to make, the state fears the possibility of the people having access to all the information on which they might decide who/what is right and who/what is wrong. How can anyone give a good reasoned argument supporting such censorship?

why dont you ask the Iranian government about that? we were talking about the taliban - furthermore propaganda makes enough problems in the west - did you know some people and media outlets in maerica where calling the speech an "apology" and heavily critcising it - as if they dont want to learn or reach out for peace even when they heard the speech - it did zero to there views anyway.

[Thinker]

Just watched a news clip stating that China is going to enact a law that all new PC's are fitted with software that enables then (the Chinese Government) to filter out what they deem as inappropriate.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...software-china

[Clover]

Just watched a news clip stating that China is going to enact a law that all new PC's are fitted with software that enables then (the Chinese Government) to filter out what they deem as inappropriate.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...software-china

I used to play a game, and one day we lost nearly 1/3 of our members, finds out, the Chinese government banned the game, it was a game based on nation strategy, like helping other nations to help your nation later on and such, it was rather sad.

[Uthman]

Thanks for posting that Thinker, but how is it relevant to the topic?

[Thinker]

Thanks for posting that Thinker, but how is it relevant to the topic?

Sorry . . . . I can see how it drifted but the fact is that my exchange with Zafran did drift off topic. Apologies :-[

[Uthman]

Sorry . . . . I can see how it drifted but the fact is that my exchange with Zafran did drift off topic. Apologies :-[

No worries. :)

[Pomak]

I have just watched two TV programmes (Aljazeera and Panorama) on Iran. It is illegal for Iranians to have satellite TV yet at least 30% of the population break the law to get access to international news, the state TV did not broadcast ‘Obama’s message to the Muslim World’ and the state has ‘filters’ on the internet. This is an example of the point I have tried to make, the state fears the possibility of the people having access to all the information on which they might decide who/what is right and who/what is wrong. How can anyone give a good reasoned argument supporting such censorship?

Iran is doing what the degrading of education standards has accomplished in the USA. A prinipled person would oppose the ends not the means

[Clover]

Iran is doing what the degrading of education standards has accomplished in the USA. A prinipled person would oppose the ends not the means

I find this false. They have uped our requirments for graduation from highschool. I have to get 32 credits (thats as many as possible) to pass, instead of the 28 that was required of last year's students.

[Pomak]

I find this false. They have uped our requirments for graduation from highschool. I have to get 32 credits (thats as many as possible) to pass, instead of the 28 that was required of last year's students.

And of course there is no underclass in the USA that after school the only job they are suited to do is working in KFC or some other form of unskilled labour?

And all American can name where Mexico and Canada are? Or can name the political actors in Turkey?

[Clover]

And of course there is no underclass in the USA that after school the only job they are suited to do is working in KFC or some other form of unskilled labour?

And all American can name where Mexico and Canada are? Or can name the political actors in Turkey?

I am sure you know everything their is to know about the American education system, I am sure you've been studying it for years, and know all about it, assuming you just insulted every American highschool graduate calling them ill-educated morons, thats a big insult to throw, especially if you know nothing of American Education Systems. I am sure though, that your an expert in that area, probably have a degree in it.

I can do both. Canada is North of the USA, Mexico is South.

btw: American should be Americans. Wow, my 10th grade grammer actually came in handy :rollseyes

Before I answer the second question, I'd like to know what the relevance of that to any job in America, other then maybe a professor in political matters of turkey? :rollseyes

I commend you sir for showing yourself to be a true vile moron. You have not only shown ignorance, but hate too, that's a great thing to express.

But in the end, what do I know? I am just a stupid, un-educated American farmer who knows nothing, I guess 11 years of education have done nothing but make me a idiot :rollseyes.

Your intelligence astounds me dear sir.

[Pomak]

I am sure you know everything their is to know about the American education system, I am sure you've been studying it for years, and know all about it, assuming you just insulted every American highschool graduate calling them ill-educated morons, thats a big insult to throw, especially if you know nothing of American Education Systems. I am sure though, that your an expert in that area, probably have a degree in it.

I can do both. Canada is North of the USA, Mexico is South.

btw: American should be Americans. Wow, my 10th grade grammer actually came in handy :rollseyes

Before I answer the second question, I'd like to know what the relevance of that to any job in America, other then maybe a professor in political matters of turkey? :rollseyes

I commend you sir for showing yourself to be a true vile moron. You have not only shown ignorance, but hate too, that's a great thing to express.

But in the end, what do I know? I am just a stupid, un-educated American farmer who knows nothing, I guess 11 years of education have done nothing but make me a idiot :rollseyes.

Your intelligence astounds me dear sir.

I'll say it only once. My point was that BOTH countries dumb down people, the only difference is that USA does it in a more subtle way than Iran.

[Zafran]

Salaam

I was just watching the news yesterday and Obama refuses to show the 44 images of Iraqi prisoners being tortured in Iraq - which is open censorship. It happens all over the place.

[Yanal]

Europe was once a whole Catholic country under King Henrys daughter Queen Elizabeths Rule because she had the power to form her country in anyway she wanted because many admired her talents she had inherited from her father,which made her be the Rennaisannce Queen making men male rulers fall over her and copy her moves in making her country a full Catholic one. It was successful but only Allah knows what happened from then and now,that muslims to live in a country which was once a pure Catholic country.

[Zafran]

Europe was once a whole Catholic country under King Henrys daughter Queen Elizabeths Rule because she had the power to form her country in anyway she wanted because many admired her talents she had inherited from her father,which made her be the Rennaisannce Queen making men male rulers fall over her and copy her moves in making her country a full Catholic one. It was successful but only Allah knows what happened from then and now,that muslims to live in a country which was once a pure Catholic country.

No - king Henry wanted to divorce his wife - the catholic church wouldnt let him so he broke off. Thats the reason - Mary 1 also known as bloody Mary tried to re establish the relationship with rome but clearly it didnt work in the long term as Queen Elizabeth went back to Protestant christianity.

[Amadeus85]

Europe was once a whole Catholic country under King Henrys daughter Queen Elizabeths Rule because she had the power to form her country in anyway she wanted because many admired her talents she had inherited from her father,which made her be the Rennaisannce Queen making men male rulers fall over her and copy her moves in making her country a full Catholic one. It was successful but only Allah knows what happened from then and now,that muslims to live in a country which was once a pure Catholic country.

2 "R" hapenned, reformation and french revolution(one the source of the other) and the effects we can see now.

[Zafran]

do you believe reformation was against christainty? Its understandable why the reveloution was.

[Amadeus85]

do you believe reformation was against christainty? Its understandable why the reveloution was.

Yes, I do, I am roman catholic. Reformation, except theological errors, brought individualism, democratism,division in Christianitas. Now we see the fruits of Lutheranism, which are hundreds, maybe thousands "churches", pro gay and pro abortion "pastors",sects like Mormons, theology of human rights,ecology instead of unchangable morality. I know that we have many great protestants here,with impressive knowledge,bigger than mine, that's why I say it not with joy, but I must say with sadness that protestants (especially anglo saxons) played major role in changing Christianitas into demo-liberal, multi cultural world.