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Uthman
06-07-2009, 05:59 PM
Court told Isa Ibrahim developed fascination with radical preachers after converting to Islam.

A student from Bristol made explosive material and a suicide vest after converting to Islam and then becoming fascinated with the teachings of radical preachers and suicide attacks, a jury heard today.

When police searched Isa Ibrahim's one-bedroom flat they found the explosive HMTD (hexamethylene triperoxide diamine) in a family assorted biscuit tin in the fridge. Ingredients for the explosive and electrical equipment that could have been used to detonate it were discovered in a cupboard under the kitchen sink.

Hanging on the back of the 19-year-old's bedroom door was a vest of the sort used by suicide bombers with panels on the front and back, Winchester crown court heard.

Ibrahim, who changed his first name from Andrew by deed poll after converting to Islam, admits making HMTD. But he denies preparing the substance intending to endanger life or cause serious damage to property and also pleads not guilty to preparing terrorists acts, including carrying out reconnaissance on a possible target.

Mark Ellison QC told the jury that Ibrahim converted to Islam in 2006 and changed his name by deed poll in February 2007.

Ellison said: "Just over one year after that, in April 2008, he was arrested in Bristol as he walked to the city centre. At the time he was living in a one-bedroomed flat in the outskirts of the city. Sitting in his fridge inside a family assortment-sized biscuit box was a quantity of homemade high explosive known as HMTD."

In a cupboard under the kitchen sink were ingredients to make the explosive and also a "crudely made" electrical circuit that, at the push of a red button, could have detonated HMTD, Ellison claimed.

He added: "Hanging from the back of the bedroom door was a homemade white cotton vest consisting of a central panel at the front and back with straps going over the shoulder. That is the sort of vest which is used sometimes by what are known as suicide bombers."

Ellison added: "You may well wonder and doubt how a 19-year-old student from Bristol could become adherent so such an extreme ideology and make explosive … so as to cause life-threatening injuries to people or serious damage to property.

"But we suggest the evidence of what he did and what he said, and what he spent quite a lot of effort searching out and collecting, will prove that he did so and that he wanted to follow in the footsteps of others who had just done that as a demonstration of the strength of their beliefs and to strike a blow against the enemy."

Over the four or five months before his arrest, Ellison said, Ibrahim's acquaintances noticed a change in his dress, which had become more strictly Islamic – and a change in what he said.

Ibrahim said he liked what radical preachers such as Abu Hamza stood for. He viewed the 9/11 attacks as a "justified response" to US and UK aggression against Muslims.

He said he wanted to go to Iraq or Palestine to join the fighting and felt living in the UK was like "living in a dirty toilet with a minefield outside". He said he sympathised with suicide bombers, it is alleged.

Ibrahim often searched the internet to research the teachings not only of Abu Hamza but of the cleric Omar Bakri and the group al-Muhajiroun.

He also investigated bombings in London and Glasgow. He spent time researching the manufacture of explosives and the ideology of suicide bombing, focusing at one point on suicide operations in Iraq.

The court was told that when he was 18 Ibrahim was addicted to drugs and homeless. He was given a place at a housing project in Bristol, where workers saw him as a devout and serious Muslim. He told one friend his parents had disowned him.

Ibrahim had a picture on his wall depicting the 9/11 attacks and began to speak about Abu Hamza and Osama bin Laden. He grew a beard and took books on 9/11 and Islamic extremism out of the library, it is alleged.

He also studied biology, chemistry and other subjects at the City of Bristol College. There, he once asked a visiting lecturer in microbiology about the "best" bacteria to kill people.

At around Christmas 2007 classmates noticed him changing, the court was told. He began handing out anti-war pamphlets and once told a friend he sympathised with suicide bombers and thought nuclear bombs were "cool".

The jury was also shown a video that the prosecution believed Ibrahim had watched in which one of the London bombers, Mohammad Sidique Khan, declares: "We are at war and I am a soldier."

A second video was shown featuring Bin Laden and other extremists to illustrate the "simple core belief" of extremists that there was a conspiracy against Islam by the west, especially the US, UK and Israel, and that war was justified not only against those countries' leaders but against the citizens who had elected them.

Ellison said Ibrahim's research indicated a "growing radicalisation towards an extreme mindset born of an adoption of the ideology espoused by Bin Laden".

He said the crown did not have to prove that Ibrahim had made up his mind to carry out an attack. But he added: "We do suggest he was seriously contemplating that."

The trial continues.

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Uthman
06-08-2009, 10:29 AM
Bombmaker staked out shopping centre as target, jury told

Muslim convert Isa Ibrahim denies making explosive to endanger life and carrying out reconnaissance at Broadmead in Bristol.

A student who made his own suicide vest using homemade explosives staked out a busy shopping centre as a potential target to bomb, a court was told today.

Isa Ibrahim, 20, denies making an explosive with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property in April last year.

The trial has heard that Ibrahim, from Comb Paddock, Westbury-on-Trym, Bristol, became increasingly radicalised after converting to Islam and changed his name from Andrew Philip Michael Ibrahim.

Mark Ellison QC, prosecuting, told Winchester crown court that on 7 April 2008, Ibrahim carried out a reconnaissance mission at the Broadmead shopping centre in Bristol.

He said that the science student spent about an hour walking around the centre without entering any of the 100 shops located over three floors.

Ellison said that as he walked, Ibrahim made a note on his mobile phone of the location of bins, lifts, escalators and exits, and described the food court as a "dense area".

He also made a note of the time it would take to leave the mall without running, Ellison said.

He added: "It seems he may well have been exploring how something could be put into one of the bins before leaving the centre without running and drawing attention to yourself.

"He had decided to carry out this reconnoitre of the shopping centre and its layout and suitability and we suggest it is significant evidence that he later made [the explosive] HMTD with intention to endanger life."

Ibrahim also denies a charge of preparing terrorist acts by purchasing material to make an explosive, making that explosive, buying material to detonate the explosive, carrying out "reconnaissance" before the act and "making an improvised suicide vest in which to then detonate an explosive substance".

The jury has been told he has pleaded guilty to a third charge of making an explosive substance.

The trial has heard that when Ibrahim was arrested, a quantity of homemade high explosive, hexamethylene triperoxide diamine (HMTD), was found in a biscuit box in the fridge of his home.

Also found in his one-bedroom flat was an electrical circuit capable of detonating the explosive as well as a suicide vest, the court was told.

He spent several months researching Islamic fundamentalism on the internet, including the motivation behind suicide attacks. He also used the internet to find instructions on how to make explosives from household products such as hydrogen peroxide, the court heard.

The trial was also told that he had described the UK as a "dirty toilet" and he believed the 9/11 attacks were a justifiable response to US and UK aggression towards Muslims.

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Uthman
07-17-2009, 02:38 PM
Loner turns would-be bomber via the web

Student Andrew Ibrahim, who has been jailed for a minimum of 10 years for plotting to blow himself up using a home-made suicide vest, is the son of an NHS consultant and converted to Islam in 2006.

The 20-year-old from Bristol changed his name by deed poll to Isa, meaning Jesus, but rather than follow a peaceful path he became obsessed with the politics of the Muslim world.

With the help of extreme material obtained via jihadist websites he became radicalised to the point where he became a danger to himself and others.

It has emerged it was Muslims who alerted police in Bristol and counter-terrorism officers from Scotland Yard to Ibrahim's activities.

The BBC understands that his arrest was the first major one following a community tip-off.

Whitehall security and community cohesion chiefs regard the way the case has been handled as a huge step forward in building trust with Muslim communities which are often on the sharp end of counter-terrorism investigations.

Some people have asked me 'do you feel betrayed by Isa Ibrahim' and I'd say 'no the Muslim community feels we let him down
Farooq Siddique, Bristol Muslim Society


But what happened to change a middle-class, British-born man, educated at some of Bristol's top independent schools, into the radical facing terror charges in court?

Prosecutors told his trial at Winchester Crown Court that Ibrahim developed a "mindset of martyrdom" and a taste for radical clerics on the internet - people like Abu Hamza al-Masri, the preacher jailed for race-hate who is now facing extradition to the US.

In turn, Ibrahim said he admired the 7/7 London suicide bombers - and he told friends the 9/11 attacks on America were a "justified response" for Western aggression.

A heroin-taking loner, Ibrahim felt he had found an ideology that echoed his own sense of anger with the world.

Guidance needed


Farooq Siddique, of the Bristol Muslim Society, said Ibrahim's world view was formed amid the difficult circumstances of a religious community feeling that it is under the media cosh.

"The media portrayal of Muslims is very negative with the majority of nouns used to describe Muslims today being terrorist, extremist, Islamist, suicide bomber," he said.

"Then you get to the radical websites which say the reason they're saying this negative stuff is because this is part of a crusade against Islam - that it's part of a war to wipe Islam off the face of the earth.

"Suddenly you've found a cause and Ibrahim was already a guy in serious trouble in his personal life.

"He wanted to be part of something. He always wanted to be part of something and here he found a cause."

Ed Husain, of the Quilliam Foundation, the counter-extremism think-tank, said while Ibrahim was responsible for his own path, the Muslim community had to play a part in identifying and stopping the journey to extremism.

"When young people like Ibrahim don't find political guidance at the mosque, they then turn, as he did, to the internet," said Mr Husain.

"There they find ample guidance for political matters but that comes in the form of extremism, radicalism, or taking up arms, of being terrorists.

"This is a huge infrastructural problem within mosques and with British Muslims. There is a serious lack of understanding of the problem because there is a cultural, linguistic and psychological obstacle between the younger generation and the older generation."

Since Ibrahim's arrest in 2008, the Bristol Muslim Society has been working closely with the police. Every mosque in the city now has its own police community support officer.

PCSO Dawn Pearse said: "On Fridays they bring their young lads and you see them in the street. They call us by our first names and that's nice, so I think it's working," she said.

The mosques are also changing slowly. Danyal Laskar, who is a volunteer at the Muslim Support Network, said being able to hear sermons in English and talk about his faith in the language he grew up speaking has led to a greater understanding.

"When I entered the faith, the mosque that I was going to had no English sermons or lessons or people talking in English," said Mr Laskar.

"It was all in a foreign language. We wanted to make somewhere where it was all in English, where there were friendly faces and so people could understand their religion and meet other Muslims in a place where they would understand."

Ibrahim's family spoke of their shock and distress when he was arrested.

Farooq Siddique said: "Some people have asked me 'do you feel betrayed by Isa Ibrahim' and I'd say 'no the Muslim community feels we let him down'.

"This guy is looking for guidance and looking for help and support and I don't think the Muslim community was geared-up to provide this particular individual with help.

"We just have to make sure that we don't drop the ball next time."

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aadil77
07-18-2009, 11:20 AM
Would you believe this? people on ummah forums are crying and calling those muslims munafiqeen because they gave him up to the police and they're saying there isn't enough proof! There was a bloody bomb found with circuits and vest in his house and a video of him showing them.

SubhanAllah they stopped the guy from potentialy commiting suicide and murdering other people and those muslims are getting the blame for it!?
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-18-2009, 11:42 AM
ok if your gnna be a suicide bomber/terrorist, would you really have things like that in your bedroom?
i mean com ooooonnnn for a mission as deadly as this, wouldn't one be a lot more discrete as to where they would keep their gear...anyone can walk into your bed-room for god sake!

i have so much other stuff to say but i'll just summarize:
i so doubt Muslims are behind stuff like this. i dno all the time its the same old pattern of converts/being really quite/preachers of islam/Muslims adhering to their religion/bothers growing their beards etc...
to me, those things point to a typical hate of Islam...it just really seems to be a mission to put people off Islam. to anyone who hates islam, Islam is a threat that needs to be dealt with....that's really all i can see from it.

a person who was out to kill would be way more smarter than what these people are allegedly doing...it makes no sense...it really doesnt...
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Banu_Hashim
07-18-2009, 12:15 PM
I remember this. My dad, farooque siddque and a few other members from the community had to talk to the police about the situation.
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Uthman
07-18-2009, 12:35 PM
I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well. Their 'evidences' from the Qur'an/Sunnah may be convincing to those who are weak in knowledge but as far as I am aware the vast majority of scholars condemn this as being far removed from the teachings of Islam, and for that reason, so do I.
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glo
07-18-2009, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well.
Perhaps it depends on the intentions for reverting to Islam in the first place.

If he felt hatred towards his parents or his upbringing or his community or his culture or his country to start with, then Islam may have seemed like a way to rebel and fight against those things.
If he found just one hate-mongering radical scholar to support his own anger, then he could easily have felt justified to continue on his path of hatred and destruction ...
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GuestFellow
07-18-2009, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
ok if your gnna be a suicide bomber/terrorist, would you really have things like that in your bedroom?
i mean com ooooonnnn for a mission as deadly as this, wouldn't one be a lot more discrete as to where they would keep their gear...anyone can walk into your bed-room for god sake!
Where else would he have put it?

a person who was out to kill would be way more smarter than what these people are allegedly doing...it makes no sense...it really doesnt...
Whether he is intelligent, dumb or naive does not really matter. He had explosives and a suicide vest. He is already guilty of possessing dangerous items. He was on drugs too I remember so I highly doubt he was thinking properly.

Overall I'm glad he got caught. To me he is very dangerous. He should have gotten more than ten years. The Bristol muslim community did the right thing.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
07-18-2009, 05:49 PM
:salamext:

He began handing out anti-war pamphlets and once told a friend he sympathised with suicide bombers and thought nuclear bombs were "cool".
Cool? If this is true, he sounds mentally unstable.
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-19-2009, 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Perhaps it depends on the intentions for reverting to Islam in the first place.

If he felt hatred towards his parents or his upbringing or his community or his culture or his country to start with, then Islam may have seemed like a way to rebel and fight against those things.
considering that no one actually knows his intentions behind his conversion, i fail to see how your point holds up to any scrutiny.

If he found just one hate-mongering radical scholar to support his own anger, then he could easily have felt justified to continue on his path of hatred and destruction ...
what are the chances of his finding that one -yes allow me to emphasis on the one- hate-mongering scholar you speak of?


Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Where else would he have put it?
i dont know, but putting things like that in your bedroom whilst they are under the "micro-scope" by the law is as stupid as putting your journal under your mattress as to conceal it from your siblings...it always the first place to look :-\ really, it makes no sense.


Whether he is intelligent, dumb or naive does not really matter. He had explosives and a suicide vest. He is already guilty of possessing dangerous items.
i understand that, but it wasn't the point. my point was focusing on the little details which aren't fitting in the picture that makes up the whole story.


He was on drugs too I remember so I highly doubt he was thinking properly.
so if thats the case, why has he been convicted in the first place?
if one is mentally unstable, whether it is a terror plot or any other crime, the court takes that into consideration when convicting them. so, if that is the case, why hasn't that happened here?
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GuestFellow
07-19-2009, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
i dont know, but putting things like that in your bedroom whilst they are under the "micro-scope" by the law is as stupid as putting your journal under your mattress as to conceal it from your siblings...it always the first place to look :-\ really, it makes no sense.
Ah no one knew what he was actually up to. So probably to him it was the safest place he could have put it. I really cannot think of any other place to put it and at the same time have a close eye on it. If it was the case the government had been keeping an eye on him, he would not have known that.

i understand that, but it wasn't the point. my point was focusing on the little details which aren't fitting in the picture that makes up the whole story.
I think it makes sense. A lonely teenager on drugs wanted to be part of something. Joined Islam and got interested in terrorism. He was looking on the internet for past suicide bombers and their motives, and used the internet to search how to make explosives. He went to the shops and began making notes on his mobile phone, such as "dense area". Next he is caught with explosives and suicide vest...everything fits in...Even the Bristol Muslim community noticed something strange about him.

so if thats the case, why has he been convicted in the first place?
if one is mentally unstable, whether it is a terror plot or any other crime, the court takes that into consideration when convicting them. so, if that is the case, why hasn't that happened here?

The courts do take into a consideration whether the individual is mentally unstable or not. They list the aggravating and mitigating factors and decide upon the sentence. Upon sentencing he will receive a rehabilitation program to be released back into the society, otherwise if they believe he had no chance of rehabilitation they would have no intention of letting him go.
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-19-2009, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I think it makes sense. A lonely teenager on drugs wanted to be part of something. Joined Islam and got interested in terrorism. He was looking on the internet for past suicide bombers and their motives, and used the internet to search how to make explosives. He went to the shops and began making notes on his mobile phone, such as "dense area". Next he is caught with explosives and suicide vest...everything fits in...
i still stick to my initial notion for the reasons aforementioned.
why does one have to join islam to become a terrorist? i mean to kill all them people...well you can become anyone and have any excuse really.
you don't have to convert to Islam or be a Muslim to commit a crime...that christian extremist (i forget his name) done it in Oklahoma...if you were really out to kill, why do you need to go to such extents...I dont see how/why it's required?
that and the fact that lonely teenagers....well I thought lonely teenagers want to be "in" and being into islam isn't what most non-Muslim teenagers are into. so i don't see how that fits in either.

Even the Bristol Muslim community noticed something strange about him.
and they didnt bother stop it with their own hands? instead they go to the police and hand in their brethren in faith. that's really saddening...
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GuestFellow
07-19-2009, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
i still stick to my initial notion for the reasons aforementioned.
why does one have to join islam to become a terrorist? i mean to kill all them people...well you can become anyone and have any excuse really.
you don't have to convert to Islam or be a Muslim to commit a crime...that christian extremist (i forget his name) done it in Oklahoma...if you were really out to kill, why do you need to go to such extents...I dont see how/why it's required.
You do not have to join Islam to become a terrorist, I agree on that. He was a lonely teenager and he was in a community where the majority of people are Muslims. He joined Islam and became part of something. He became part of something and wanted to defend it. Of course he was not happy with Iraq war and the Palestine/Israel conflict. So he decided to put matters into his own hands.

and they didnt bother stop it with their own hands? instead they go to the police and hand in their brethren in faith. that's really saddening...
I don't think the Bristol community have betrayed him. They actually stopped him from committing further sins. They contacted the police, and their suspicions have been confirmed. Even if the Muslim community had questioned him, how would have you know that what he was telling you was a lie or the truth? I don't think he had close contact with anyone in the community, therefore he would have been more cautious if they had question him.

He is hopefully going to be involved in a rehabilitation program in the course of the ten years and he will return back to the society as a normal citizen.
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-19-2009, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
You do not have to join Islam to become a terrorist, I agree on that. He was a lonely teenager and he was in a community where the majority of people are Muslims.
knowing that Islam is under the spot light you go and convert as to "fit in." ?
converts know what they get themselves into when converting to Islam- i don't see how they would miss the boat...as brother uthmaan said:

I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path?
they know islam is under the spotlight by the media as well as the general public...shouldn't that-even when living in a majority populated Muslim area-be enough to scare someone to carry out somethign like this? especially nowadays when Muslims are turning on one another and readily hand in their brethren in faith to the authority...why oh why would you knowingly take such risks?

He joined Islam and became part of something. He became part of something and wanted to defend it. Of course he was not happy with Iraq war and the Palestine/Israel conflict. So he decided to put matters into his own hands.
im sorry, but anyone wanting to do something worth while knows fully well that taking the short-cut to do it aka becoming apart of somethign that's already frowned upon and in the public eye, is well...again it just doesn't make sense.
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glo
07-19-2009, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed

and they didnt bother stop it with their own hands? instead they go to the police and hand in their brethren in faith. that's really saddening...
How do you suggest they should have stopped a potential suicide bombers with their own hands?

I think whoever reported him did a very brave thing!
To have the police come to your place of worship to investigate and scrutinise the congregation of worshippers must be a very daunting thing. Whoever called the police must have been sure that it was in the best interest for all involved to do so.
Personally, I agree.
And it puts the Muslim community in a positive light.
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GuestFellow
07-19-2009, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
knowing that Islam is under the spot light you go and convert as to "fit in." ?
converts know what they get themselves into when converting to Islam- i don't see how they would miss the boat...as brother uthmaan said:

''I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path?''

they know islam is under the spotlight by the media as well as the general public...shouldn't that-even when living in a majority populated Muslim area-be enough to scare someone to carry out somethign like this? especially nowadays when Muslims are turning on one another and readily hand in their brethren in faith to the authority...why oh why would you knowingly take such risks

im sorry, but anyone wanting to do something worth while knows fully well that taking the short-cut to do it aka becoming apart of somethign that's already frowned upon and in the public eye, is well...again it just doesn't make sense.
Well there have been individuals who converted to Islam right after September 11th despite how the media portrayed Islam. Islam is already frowned upon the general public however there are still people who still convert to Islam, though of course those people did not have any intention to plot terrorist activities or make explosives.

What I stated was an assumption to why he had converted to Islam, taking into account of his background history. I believe we can all agree he was a troubled individual. The Muslim community should learn from this, take precautions and try to gain a better understanding of why some people convert to Islam to ensure this does not happen again.

If you feel this does not make sense then what are you trying to propose then?
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Trumble
07-19-2009, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
and they didnt bother stop it with their own hands? instead they go to the police and hand in their brethren in faith. that's really saddening...
What would have been really saddening is if a bunch of bumbling amateurs with some ridiculous idea of keeping the matter within a particular community had messed it up and a bomb been exploded killing both them and him. This was clearly a matter for the professionals, as is his punishment and possibly psychiatric treatment. Do you not understand what this person might have done?
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Al-Zaara
07-19-2009, 04:26 PM
Thank God they caught him. I'm very glad someone was able to stop him, before anything could have happened.

He might have wanted to stand out, to fit in, to do something "brave" or just felt "excused" for the actions he was about to take. He might have wanted to do stuff like this before, so hearing these radical and crazy things that "it's OK to bomb" or similiar he might have heard, made him feel he has "excuses". Logical or not, he does sound mentally unstable. We can just assume though, but again, it was good he was caught, elhamdulillah.
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convert
07-20-2009, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Would you believe this? people on ummah forums are crying and calling those muslims munafiqeen because they gave him up to the police and they're saying there isn't enough proof! There was a bloody bomb found with circuits and vest in his house and a video of him showing them.

SubhanAllah they stopped the guy from potentialy commiting suicide and murdering other people and those muslims are getting the blame for it!?
I would never in a million years turn a brother into the police. Things like this need to be taken care of in-house. That is quite a statement right here that you would willingly turn a fellow muslim into the hands of "kuffar justice".
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aadil77
07-20-2009, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by convert
I would never in a million years turn a brother into the police. Things like this need to be taken care of in-house. That is quite a statement right here that you would willingly turn a fellow muslim into the hands of "kuffar justice".
Ok bro lets say he was for definate gonna do it, what 'justice' would you carry out on him, if you are unable to stop him what would you do?

I still don't understand why some people have this opinion of being against 'kuffar justice' , if a muslim murdered your mum in a non muslim country, what would you do? lets say in this case you're unable to kill the the guy
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Grofica
07-20-2009, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well. Their 'evidences' from the Qur'an/Sunnah may be convincing to those who are weak in knowledge but as far as I am aware the vast majority of scholars condemn this as being far removed from the teachings of Islam, and for that reason, so do I.
The thing i dont get is why they always blame islam... there are radicals of every major relgious... i believe being crazy has nothing to do with religion. :exhausted
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convert
07-20-2009, 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Ok bro lets say he was for definate gonna do it, what 'justice' would you carry out on him, if you are unable to stop him what would you do?

I still don't understand why some people have this opinion of being against 'kuffar justice' , if a muslim murdered your mum in a non muslim country, what would you do? lets say in this case you're unable to kill the the guy
Akhi, it is fard to get your fellow brothers out of the prisons of the kuffar and you are arguing it is ok to send them there?

If I found out something like this was going on, I would advise him and make sure I am hounding him daily to give him companionship. It is easy for converts to come to such groups as the salafi cult and the anarchist groups that masquerade as jihadis when nobody will talk to them. This is a complete failure on the muslims of the brother's community on both parts.
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aadil77
07-20-2009, 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by convert
Akhi, it is fard to get your fellow brothers out of the prisons of the kuffar and you are arguing it is ok to send them there?

If I found out something like this was going on, I would advise him and make sure I am hounding him daily to give him companionship. It is easy for converts to come to such groups as the salafi cult and the anarchist groups that masquerade as jihadis when nobody will talk to them. This is a complete failure on the muslims of the brother's community on both parts.
Yes I understand this failure.

My point is that if we can't stop it ourselves then I'd rather he get sent to prison than have to taste the punishment of jahanam for even a second. We know these things are clear cut suicide and murder = haraam, you do them you're not gonna get a chance to repent cause you've just wasted yourself. Allahu Alim wether he gets punished or not, but we should be stopping it anyway because we are aware of these sins.

Your point about 'kuffar justice' and prison, would you turn a brother in if you were unable to prevent it and it was a islamic country, if so what country would that be? And what if the punishment handed down by the 'kuffar' is the same as in an islamic country?

You still haven't answered my question about that other scenario

What should we be worried about more, his welfare in this short dunya or on the day of Qiyamah?
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convert
07-20-2009, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Yes I understand this failure.

My point is that if we can't stop it ourselves then I'd rather he get sent to prison than have to taste the punishment of jahanam for even a second. We know these things are clear cut suicide and murder = haraam, you do them you're not gonna get a chance to repent cause you've just wasted yourself. Allahu Alim wether he gets punished or not, but we should be stopping it anyway because we are aware of these sins.

Your point about 'kuffar justice' and prison, would you turn a brother in if you were unable to prevent it and it was a islamic country, if so what country would that be? And what if the punishment handed down by the 'kuffar' is the same as in an islamic country?

You still haven't answered my question about that other scenario

What should we be worried about more, his welfare in this short dunya or on the day of Qiyamah?
That is very convoluted thinking. Stop and think: do you think you would be ok on yawm al qiyamah after doing such a thing? Stop something with your hand, dont pass it on to people who will take it to that extra level and sensationalize it simply because he is muslim.
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aadil77
07-20-2009, 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by convert
That is very convoluted thinking. Stop and think: do you think you would be ok on yawm al qiyamah after doing such a thing? Stop something with your hand, dont pass it on to people who will take it to that extra level and sensationalize it simply because he is muslim.
I'm not just reffering to this particular case, because I agree it may been sensationalized or the brother might not have even had the intentions do such a thing. But brother I think you're not quite aware of the punishment of the akhira, you're not thinking out this mans akhira if he'd gone ahead, all you're worried about is this impression that you must show that you're as disassociated from kuffar as possible.

I think on the day of qiyamah these muslims may even be rewarded for it. I think when this guy sits down and thinks about what he could have got himself into if he hadn't have been stopped he may even think good of them. Whereas I think someone with an attitude like yours might even be liable of qiyamah for not stopping the brother because you worried about his prison sentance. Where does following 'the law of the land' come into this
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convert
07-20-2009, 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
I'm not just reffering to this particular case, because I agree it may been sensationalized or the brother might not have even had the intentions do such a thing. But brother I think you're not quite aware of the punishment of the akhira, you're not thinking out this mans akhira if he'd gone ahead, all you're worried about is this impression that you must show that you're as disassociated from kuffar as possible.

I think on the day of qiyamah these muslims may even be rewarded for it. I think when this guy sits down and thinks about what he could have got himself into if he hadn't have been stopped he may even think good of them. Whereas I think someone with an attitude like yours might even be liable of qiyamah for not stopping the brother because you worried about his prison sentance. Where does following 'the law of the land' come into this
We obviously disagree akhi. I believe I have read daleel to support my position, I will try to find it again. The highlighted statement seems very wrong to me.
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-20-2009, 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by glo
How do you suggest they should have stopped a potential suicide bombers with their own hands?
i mean advice him if they knew something. if they are able to stop it with their own hands without getting others involved then i dont see why they shouldn’t.

And it puts the Muslim community in a positive light.
I doubt it. People automatically look at the negatives before the positives, whether it's in regards to the affairs of the Muslims or otherwise. That and the fact that when stuff like this gets out into the public eye, it will be portrayed as something negative, what with the headlines and all. I mean you only have to look at the headlines of the articles posted in this thread to know what i mean.

Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Well there have been individuals who converted to Islam right after September 11th despite how the media portrayed Islam. Islam is already frowned upon the general public however there are still people who still convert to Islam, though of course those people did not have any intention to plot terrorist activities or make explosives.
im not referring to one's conversion, that's something else here. im referring to converting and plotting a terrorist attack whilst fully knowing how its seen by the media as well as the general public. if you know something is frowned upon by society (in this case a terrorist attack), chances are you'd back off. converting is something and plotting what you have allegedly plotted whilst knowing how its seen by everyone, i really do think its highly unlikely.

I don't think the Bristol community have betrayed him. They actually stopped him from committing further sins.
you can stop one from committing further sins without humiliating them, and putting other Muslims under baseless suspicion.

The Muslim community should learn from this, take precautions and try to gain a better understanding of why some people convert to Islam to ensure this does not happen again.
i completely disagree with you on that. you cant probe into people reasons as to why they convert! how do you know you wont put them off? and even if you did find out something "fishy" what are you going to say: im sorry you cant convert to Islam, your reasons don't meet our standards?

no-one neither can or has the right to...


Originally Posted by Trumble
What would have been really saddening is if a bunch of bumbling amateurs with some ridiculous idea of keeping the matter within a particular community had messed it up and a bomb been exploded killing both them and him.
Whose to say they would have messed it up?


This was clearly a matter for the professionals, as is his punishment and possibly psychiatric treatment. Do you not understand what this person might have done?
of course i do! what i mean and should have elaborated on earlier is that if the muslim community can do somehting about these matters WITHIN the community itself, then that should happen. if they are able to sort of out the problem, i don't see why they need "out-siders" involved. i mean either way the problem would have been sorted, which is what we want.
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adil hasnain
07-20-2009, 08:29 AM
Salaam Alakum warkhmatulah wabarakatuh


I think we should help to convert people to Islam however we should also try to purify our deen and the deen of our fellow brothers and sisters.Straighten out any errors and misconceptions between the Ummah.As nowerdays young muslims are getting confused including me about what is correct and what is not and this is what the eneemies of Islam want.As if there is no unity and we think very differently we are not one Ummah.Like take for example the Danish cartoons and sweedish cartoons depictuing Muhammed saws as a dog anazubillah(it makes me feel sick).We are meant to do something about it you know that but even top muslims say no.


I shall quickly explain this to you

In the time of Muhammed saws this used to happen poetry about Muhammed saws insulting him.So the sahhaba asked what shall we do and he said kill them.Now Muhammed saws is passed away he is not here to forgive the person who did it as he is the only person to forgive the people who insult his name.So we have to do what he told us to do back then

Salaam alakum

If I have made any mistake please correct me
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GuestFellow
07-20-2009, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed

im not referring to one's conversion, that's something else here. im referring to converting and plotting a terrorist attack whilst fully knowing how its seen by the media as well as the general public. if you know something is frowned upon by society (in this case a terrorist attack), chances are you'd back off. converting is something and plotting what you have allegedly plotted whilst knowing how its seen by everyone, i really do think its highly unlikely.
Highly unlikely yes though there is always a chance of someone committing the actions stated above. Murderers are looked down upon society, but that does not stop individuals killing other people.

BTW we never know why he exactly converted to Islam. What I think he converted to Islam and then began to get interested in explosives and past suicide bombers. I too highly doubt he would have converted to Islam to commit terrorist plots. Yes that part doesn't make sense.

O.O

you can stop one from committing further sins without humiliating them, and putting other Muslims under baseless suspicion.
He deserved to be humilated. I personally cannot have any mercy upon a person who potentially could have killed hundred of innocent people regardless of their religion, their ethnic background or their views. Unless if they were sorry.

Maybe it was baseless suspicion. When the police got involved, their suspicisons have been confirmed.

i completely disagree with you on that. you cant probe into people reasons as to why they convert! how do you know you wont put them off? and even if you did find out something "fishy" what are you going to say: im sorry you cant convert to Islam, your reasons don't meet our standards?
I do not think I said to spy or interrogate Muslim converts. If there happened to be a troubled indiviudal who converted to Islam, then he should recieve all the reasonable help that he should get (if they want the help). I never said to use force to tell Muslim convets why they have turned to Islam. Naturally I know many converts that are very happy to share why they have chosen Islam, without me even asking them. If they happpen to get the wrong idea of Islam, it should be our duty to some extent clear up those misconceptions.

No I would not say this: im sorry you cant convert to Islam, your reasons don't meet our standards?
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-20-2009, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Highly unlikely yes though there is always a chance of someone committing the actions stated above. Murderers are looked down upon society, but that does not stop individuals killing other people.
you still don't understand it :uhwhat

He deserved to be humiliated.
no Muslim deserved to be humiliated! :( and why should we have to turn to humiliation if there are other valid options open, like advising one as i mentioned previously? if we are talking about stopping someone from committing sins (as you mentioned previously), then why does/should humiliation be used? as i said, you can stop one form committing sins without that option imo...
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GuestFellow
07-20-2009, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
you still don't understand it :uhwhat
lol I edited it. Read my post again. XD

no Muslim deserved to be humiliated! :(
If they did something wrong, why not?
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-20-2009, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
If they did something wrong, why not?
see my previous post..

When the police got involved, their suspicisons have been confirmed.
what about other Muslims who are unjustfully put under the microscope due to baseless suspicious...the brother who grows his bears and the sister who wears her hijaab...all these are going to be frowned upon for being Muslim becuase someone accused someone else...
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GuestFellow
07-20-2009, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
see my previous post..

Yes that makes much more sense. Humiliating might make them angry or might lead to undesirable consequences.


what about other Muslims who are unjustfully put under the microscope due to baseless suspicious...the brother who grows his bears and the sister who wears her hijaab...all these are going to be frowned upon for being Muslim becuase someone accused someone else...
Well I agree the government and their war against terror has spiral out of control lately and they begin to suspect anyone who has a beard or wears a hijaab. Yes making false accusations is not right and to put them under the spot light, until they have been proven guilty.
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convert
07-20-2009, 12:22 PM
Some replies in here are absolutely shocking. British society will still hate and fear you no matter how much you suck up to them and give them the "terrorists" amongst you.

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me."
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Al Ansari
07-20-2009, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well. Their 'evidences' from the Qur'an/Sunnah may be convincing to those who are weak in knowledge but as far as I am aware the vast majority of scholars condemn this as being far removed from the teachings of Islam, and for that reason, so do I.
In the name of Allaah

I understand how a convert could have this mentality. Are you saying that Islaam does not condone self-sacrifice? ( I am not speaking bombings, but on missions which one would be certain in their knowledge that they could lose their life over this?

I have read fatawah on both sides of the issue and from some of the narrations and stories, I can see how self-sacrifice was not condemned-however, suicide was. The key is niyyah, yet if it is haraam in itself, a niyyah would make it halal.

Wa Allaahu alim
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Trumble
07-20-2009, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by convert

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me."

Always a powerful piece... which you apparently do not understand in the slightest. The whole point is that communists, social democrats, trade unionists and Jews were totally innocent of any crime. Had they, instead, been in possession of bombs with the intention of slaughtering innocent civilians in the name of whatever cause it happened to be even the Nazis would have been perfectly entitled to arrest them to stop them doing it.

If you stay silent and some idiot like this does go ahead with his plans, the blood will be on YOUR hands as much as his. Are you willing to accept that?
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GuestFellow
07-20-2009, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by convert
Some replies in here are absolutely shocking. British society will still hate and fear you no matter how much you suck up to them and give them the "terrorists" amongst you.
Not all British people hate Muslims. I have many friends at college that are not Muslims and they don't have anything against me or my religion. In fact they respect my beliefs and values.

If there is a Muslim or a non-Muslim plotting terrorist attacks I would contact the police and inform them. That does not mean I am sucking up to anyone, in fact all I am doing is preventing hundreds of innocent getting killed. Do you think it is right to allow these certain individuals to kill hundred of innocent people? All your doing is sucking up to the criminal if you allow these dangerous activities to occur.

People should be encouraged to contact the police of any criminal matters.
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convert
07-20-2009, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Always a powerful piece... which you apparently do not understand in the slightest. The whole point is that communists, social democrats, trade unionists and Jews were totally innocent of any crime. Had they, instead, been in possession of bombs with the intention of slaughtering innocent civilians in the name of whatever cause it happened to be even the Nazis would have been perfectly entitled to arrest them to stop them doing it.

If you stay silent and some idiot like this does go ahead with his plans, the blood will be on YOUR hands as much as his. Are you willing to accept that?
No, I understand it. I take it you don't understand the context I am using it it?

I worry about sending my brother to the kuffar prisons on judgement day.

Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Not all British people hate Muslims. I have many friends at college that are not Muslims and they don't have anything against me or my religion. In fact they respect my beliefs and values.

If there is a Muslim or a non-Muslim plotting terrorist attacks I would contact the police and inform them. That does not mean I am sucking up to anyone, in fact all I am doing is preventing hundreds of innocent getting killed. Do you think it is right to allow these certain individuals to kill hundred of innocent people? All your doing is sucking up to the criminal if you allow these dangerous activities to occur.

People should be encouraged to contact the police of any criminal matters.
I advise you to check you iman here. If I heard that from you, the first thing I would do is advise the community to stay away from you.

You are using red herrings to skirt the issue: YOU DO NOT SEND YOUR MUSLIM BROTHERS OR SISTERS TO KUFFAR PRISONS!

Also, not one of you has grasped what I am saying. Never once have I condoned or endorsed any bombings. I just tell you you are 100% in the wrong if you think its ok to hand a muslim brother or sister over to the kuffar. If you think something wrong is going to happen THEN DEAL WITH HIM PERSONALLY! TELL PEOPLE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY WHO CAN HANDLE! DO NOT GIVE ANYONE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SENSATIONALIZE SOMETHING LIKE THIS! Things like this need to be dealt with in-house.

Also: so you admit to taking awliyah others than whom Allah has commanded?
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aadil77
07-20-2009, 06:25 PM
Brother I thought about it and I think I understand your view. Its kind of like everyman for himself, It would be his own fault if he had gone and done it after what ever help muslims would have given him and then also you won't be at fault for sending him to prison. Thats how it will be on the Day of Qiyamah, you wont be at fault because of someone elses sins.
I don't think anyone here is sucking up to kuffar, I definately am not I have the brothers interests at heart.

I'm still finding it hard to understand why it is that bad to let another muslim get punished by 'kuffar', if its potentially saving him from a much worse torment in the akhira then whats the problem? I still want to know what you would do if you were badly wronged by a muslim in a non muslim country and were unable to do anything about it yourself? Would you just forgive and forget for the sake of saving him kuffar 'justice'?
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GuestFellow
07-20-2009, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by convert
No, I understand it. I take it you don't understand the context I am using it it?

I worry about sending my brother to the kuffar prisons on judgement day.

I advise you to check you iman here. If I heard that from you, the first thing I would do is advise the community to stay away from you.
Why? What have I done to the community? I really care for the Muslim community...

You are using red herrings to skirt the issue: YOU DO NOT SEND YOUR MUSLIM BROTHERS OR SISTERS TO KUFFAR PRISONS!

Also, not one of you has grasped what I am saying. Never once have I condoned or endorsed any bombings. I just tell you you are 100% in the wrong if you think its ok to hand a muslim brother or sister over to the kuffar. If you think something wrong is going to happen THEN DEAL WITH HIM PERSONALLY! TELL PEOPLE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY WHO CAN HANDLE! DO NOT GIVE ANYONE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SENSATIONALIZE SOMETHING LIKE THIS! Things like this need to be dealt with in-house.

Also: so you admit to taking awliyah others than whom Allah has commanded?

What is wrong with a Muslim being punished by a non-Muslim? Bad Muslims get punished by the UK legal justice system and I have not heard any Muslim going against this. Why until now I have heard criminal matters related to Muslims should be dealt ''in-house.'' How is this going to be practical in a Non-Muslim country?

For example let’s say I met the boy mentioned in the article Andrew Ibrahim and he told me of his plans. I told him what he was doing was not right and he did not listen to me and was going to put his plans into action. What am I supposed to do then? How is the Muslim community going to deal with this, take into account we do not have the resources and expertise to deal with matters broad as this? How would have the Bristol Muslim community would have deal with this matter effectively while at the same time meeting the four aims of sentencing: retribution, deterrence, prevention and rehabilitation?

If you’re talking about matters relating to trust, I would only exercise that to a certain extent. If I did met a Muslim going to commit a crime, I would try my best to convince him what he was doing is wrong. If he does not listen, I would have to hand him over to the authorities for his own good depending on the nature of that crime.
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Al-Zaara
07-20-2009, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
of course i do! what i mean and should have elaborated on earlier is that if the muslim community can do somehting about these matters WITHIN the community itself, then that should happen. if they are able to sort of out the problem, i don't see why they need "out-siders" involved. i mean either way the problem would have been sorted, which is what we want.
You really don't get it. The community is not a country of its own, its not a legal system of its own, all-powerful or even as strong as it might seem to some. There is only so much a community can do, they'd anyways have to inform the police/psychologist, mainly professionals. And if they didn't, they'd be in serious problems afterwards, legal especially.

He was "humiliated" because he was intending to do a crime. That's what happens when you do or intend to do a crime and get caught. It isn't just something 'Boy, brother, you are about to do a sin, don't do it please' and then think you've done enough. Criminals and crimes don't work that way. You make it sound was if the crime was minor.

He converts and is about to do something which is frowned upon. There IS logical/psychological/reasoning for that, you'd just have to think outside your box.
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Al Ansari
07-21-2009, 01:32 AM
correction to my aformentioned post:

"The key is niyyah, yet if it is haraam in itself, a niyyah would NOT make it halal."
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-21-2009, 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Yes that makes much more sense. Humiliating might make them angry or might lead to undesirable consequences.
no they would be in prison unjust-fully before they had a chance to do anything, remember.

and lest you take my words literally and take them out of their intended contexts, sarcasm was being used :rollseyes

Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
He was "humiliated" because he was intending to do a crime. That's what happens when you do or intend to do a crime and get caught. It isn't just something 'Boy, brother, you are about to do a sin, don't do it please' and then think you've done enough. Criminals and crimes don't work that way.
It is very much like that. if you can stop a Muslim doing something bad by speaking to him, then i dont see why anyone else needs to be involved...either way the crime is being stopped.


You make it sound was if the crime was minor.
seems like you took it the wrong way.
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GuestFellow
07-21-2009, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
no they would be in prison unjust-fully before they had a chance to do anything, remember.

and lest you take my words literally and take them out of their intended contexts, sarcasm was being used :rollseyes
no Muslim deserved to be humiliated! and why should we have to turn to humiliation if there are other valid options open, like advising one as i mentioned previously? if we are talking about stopping someone from committing sins (as you mentioned previously), then why does/should humiliation be used? as i said, you can stop one form committing sins without that option imo...
I should make myself clear. I agreed to you to a certain extent.

I believe humiliation is not the right answer when trying to make a criminal understand what they have done is wrong. If someone has committed an offence (in this case Andrew Ibrahim making explosives), you have to negotiate with them and make them understand what they were doing is dangerous and unacceptable. This is crucially important if the convicted defendant is going to be released back into the society once they have finished their sentence. If they are humiliated, it is most likely they will not have learnt their lesson. This is what I thought relating to matters of humiliating criminals.

Advising someone to stop committing a crime only works in certain circumstances. The problem is you will never know if that person will continue or discontinue their plans. Any criminal can lie. How could you tell whether someone is lying or not? You’re taking a huge risk. There will always be a risk of hundreds of individuals getting killed, because you will never know if that person actually going to take your advice. You’re taking a gamble here.

It is very much like that. if you can stop a Muslim doing something bad by speaking to him, then i dont see why anyone else needs to be involved...either way the crime is being stopped.

It is not as simple as that. If you have already committed an offence against the state, you will have to be punished for it. In this case Andrew Ibrahim made explosives which are against the law, despite whatever your intentions were. He was charged with three offences, one of the charges, he admitted being guilty of making explosives. Just like speeding, does not matter what your intentions were, you broke the law and you will be reasonably punished.

BTW I'm curious, if a non-Muslim was plotting terrorist activities, would you try to advice them what they were doing is wrong? How practical would that be in a real life situation where hundreds of lives would be at risk? Quite a heavy burden...
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-22-2009, 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow

Advising someone to stop committing a crime only works in certain circumstances. The problem is you will never know if that person will continue or discontinue their plans.
Any criminal can lie. How could you tell whether someone is lying or not? You’re taking a huge risk. There will always be a risk of hundreds of individuals getting killed, because you will never know if that person actually going to take your advice. You’re taking a gamble here.
convicting them and sending them to prison will also not guarantee that they wont repeat the same crime either, will it?



BTW I'm curious, if a non-Muslim was plotting terrorist activities, would you try to advice them what they were doing is wrong?
of course i would.

How practical would that be in a real life situation where hundreds of lives would be at risk?
why would it be a huge risk if it stops the person from committing the crime? where is the risk...as i said previously either way he will stop doing what he intended on doing...so im confused, where is this risk you speak of.

though i must say, i cant help but comment on your little efforts of patronization...quite sneaky indeed...
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Trumble
07-22-2009, 07:02 AM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
why would it be a huge risk if it stops the person from committing the crime? where is the risk...as i said previously either way he will stop doing what he intended on doing...so im confused, where is this risk you speak of.
You are very casual with the use of the word 'if'. What 'if' instead of listening to what I assume is some sort of lecture he, suitably warned his intentions were discovered, just accelerated his plans, or harmed those trying to persuade him? The risk is that the attempt to talk sense into the wannabe terrorist will fail - a far more likely outcome - and the job of the professionals made far more difficult when the bumbling amateurs finally let them do their job.

The risk, put simply, is people being killed.
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convert
07-22-2009, 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Advising him to check his iman and telling others to stay away from him? Seriously? You have got to stop being so relaxed in the way you dish out almost kufr like verdicts on people. It's not something you do willy nilly. Some people I've seen are extremely quick to judge others and condemn them to hell, almost as if they're looking for a mistake to be made, just so they could pronounce how bad a muslim someone is. What nonsense. Don't be like that.

Read the following and sincerely ponder over it.
I did not call him kafir. Can a person with high iman even consider turning his brother over to kuffar "justice"?
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Ali_008
07-22-2009, 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Perhaps it depends on the intentions for reverting to Islam in the first place.

If he felt hatred towards his parents or his upbringing or his community or his culture or his country to start with, then Islam may have seemed like a way to rebel and fight against those things.
If he found just one hate-mongering radical scholar to support his own anger, then he could easily have felt justified to continue on his path of hatred and destruction ...
I actually find this a plausible reason. Most reverts either get influenced by a Muslim or find some faults in their previous faiths. His drug addiction and parental denunciation aren't bright characteristics.:heated:
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KAding
07-22-2009, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well. Their 'evidences' from the Qur'an/Sunnah may be convincing to those who are weak in knowledge but as far as I am aware the vast majority of scholars condemn this as being far removed from the teachings of Islam, and for that reason, so do I.
Maybe so, but there are nevertheless many Islamic resistance movements that use exactly these methods, such as Hamas, the Taliban or the Chechen resistance. These movements also seemingly receive a lot of respect and support on forums like these.

Why would he not follow those examples?
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KAding
07-22-2009, 11:47 AM
If some people can't accept Muslims being prosecuted by a 'KUFFAR' justice system in a KUFFAR country, then they shouldn't be here. It is as simple as that. How can we possibly organize society and peacefully coexist if Muslims would be unwilling to accept the rule of law? It just isn't possible.
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-22-2009, 11:52 AM
^because not everyone has the ability to migrate?
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KAding
07-22-2009, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
^because not everyone has the ability to migrate?
In that case, you better accept the rule of law in the country you reside in or look harder for ways to migrate. Surely you understand this just isn't a reasonable approach to residence and citizenship? I understand you look at this from a Muslim perspective. But do you think it is feasible to have large minorities which simply do not accept that members of their minority are judged by the justice system in that country?

It just isn't possible to coexist that way. It isn't possible for non-Muslims in Muslim majority countries and it isn't possible for Muslims in non-Muslim countries.
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GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
convicting them and sending them to prison will also not guarantee that they wont repeat the same crime either, will it?
Depends on the nature of the crime that has been committed.

It is very unlikely the offender shall try to plan terrorist activities when they are released. The authorities equip these people with qualifications so that they can make a living for themselves and are usually under constant watch. The authorties are not naive to release an individual back into society without taking precautions. However this depends on the nature of the crime itself.

why would it be a huge risk if it stops the person from committing the crime?
where is the risk...as i said previously either way he will stop doing what he intended on doing...so im confused, where is this risk you speak of.
How do you know it will stop that person from committing that crime? The risk is people getting killed.

though i must say, i cant help but comment on your little efforts of patronization...quite sneaky indeed...
O_o I don't think I'm patronizing.

Originally Posted by convert
I did not call him kafir. Can a person with high iman even consider turning his brother over to kuffar "justice"?
Well I believe that the Imam in the Bristol Muslim Community supported the police during this investigation. Some police officers are Muslims. They serve the British Justice system. If a Muslim police officer arrested another Muslim who had committed a crime, would you think that is acceptable?

Furthermore what is wrong with turning a Muslim over to the British Justice system, if they have done something wrong? What if they continue to commit that crime again? It really just escalates problems.

If Andrew Ibrahim had been not reported, he could have killed hundreds of innocent people.
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piXie
07-22-2009, 04:22 PM
I have read the article, and it is very disturbing that this is happening. But this extremism and terrorism is not because of Islam. Why is Islam being blamed?

This extremism and terrorism is a result of western foreign policy, that is the root cause of this young mans behaviour.

When young people see the unfairness that is happening in Iraq, Palestine and when they see America supporting oppressive apartheid states like Israel, this festers resentment.

When they see America’s war planes bombing villages in Pakistan and Afganistan. n they see their brothers and sisters being murdered in masses.

It is the western governments who are festering terrorism and it is because of them and their unfair policies that there is so much hate and anger.

It is western authorities own meddling and interfering in Muslim countries.

Then they actually have the nerve to blame Islam for suicide bombers?

Suicide bombing has nothing to do with Islam but everything to do with the unfair, tyrannical, terrorising, bullying, interfering, western policy.

Blame yourself western authority. You are the bully and the terrorist. It is not the Muslim armies who are in non Muslim lands, it is the non Muslim armies in the Muslim lands. Muslims today are being victimized and attacked everywhere. They are looked at suspiciously, they are being arrested and tortured in Guantanamo without charge or trial. How can the western govt. make good relations with us when they are treating us like this, and misrepresenting our religion in the media ? :hmm: [Just like what happened to the black people ]

How can the western governments pretend to make better relations with the Muslim communities when they are not getting to the root cause of the problem which is their unfair foreign policy ?

They are being very hypocritical. They are being big bullies and when their victim hits back they blame him for being extreme and a terrorist. And instead of sorting themselves out, they expect us to report him.

We will report them because our religion does not allow us to take it out on innocent civilians and bomb them for their governments faults. n neither do we want to do that because we are good citizens and have nothing against the general public. Two wrongs don't make a right, we believe that. But don't u see the unfairness ? Until western policy doesn't change, extremist attacks will carry on happening and we will carry on reporting. But this is not going to solve anything or bring about any peace.

We must get to the root cause of the problem: The unfair western policy needs to be changed.
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Clover
07-22-2009, 04:49 PM
Wow, not a very smart person to say the least. Hope he learns non-violence, and becomes a more...peaceful person.
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GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 05:00 PM
I agree with Sister piXie.

Majority of the problems that occurred in the East are all due to Western foreign policy and their meddling. Ron Paul is the only Politician
in America that speaks sense.

America and their cronies rant on about democracy and how the public should elect their government. However in Palestine when Hamas was elected, looks how quick the government were labelled as ''terrorist,'' by other countries.

America labels anyone as terrorists and all the sad viewers of Fox news and CNN news blindly absorbs all the propaganda.

The irony kills it.

If we are talking about the source of all the problems, foreign policy needs to be sorted and fast.
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KAding
07-22-2009, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I agree with Sister piXie.

Majority of the problems that occurred in the East are all due to Western foreign policy and their meddling. Ron Paul is the only Politician
in America that speaks sense.

America and their cronies rant on about democracy and how the public should elect their government. However in Palestine when Hamas was elected, looks how quick the government were labelled as ''terrorist,'' by other countries.

America labels anyone as terrorists and all the sad viewers of Fox news and CNN news blindly absorbs all the propaganda.

The irony kills it.

If we are talking about the source of all the problems, foreign policy needs to be sorted and fast.
That is only part of the explanation though. Why does some guy from England care that much about what happens in the Middle East? And why does that care translate into plans for a suicide bombing?
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GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
That is only part of the explanation though. Why does some guy from England care that much about what happens in the Middle East? And why does that care translate into plans for a suicide bombing?

Muslims care for one another. Nationality or your ethnic background does not stop one Muslim caring or helping another Muslim. Of course we help other Muslims according to Islamic principles and are not supposed to step outside the boundaries.

That is how I think Andrew Ibrahim felt, though he took the wrong course of action by making explosives. He wanted to get himself noticed and I conclude he was just looking for attention. He got interested in the wrong people, past Muslim suicide bombers and believed violence was the answer to the entire problem. Of course he was wrong.

This is why I stress for the American government and other Western countries to mind their own business. The American government used violence to sort out issues in the Middle East. Using violence does not work. Both sides loose.

If America improves on their foreign policy, listen for a change, and then people will not take drastic action. We could see decrease in terrorist activities.
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Suomipoika
07-22-2009, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
This is why I stress for the American government and other Western countries to mind their own business.
This is what USA was mostly doing, up until 9/11. It obviously didn't work.
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GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
This is what USA was mostly doing, up until 9/11. It obviously didn't work.
I disagree. USA has gotten involved in other countries affairs before. For example during Iraq and Iran war, America handed weapons to Iraq for assistance to fight against Iran.
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Clover
07-22-2009, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I agree with Sister piXie.

Majority of the problems that occurred in the East are all due to Western foreign policy and their meddling. Ron Paul is the only Politician
in America that speaks sense.

America and their cronies rant on about democracy and how the public should elect their government. However in Palestine when Hamas was elected, looks how quick the government were labelled as ''terrorist,'' by other countries.

America labels anyone as terrorists and all the sad viewers of Fox news and CNN news blindly absorbs all the propaganda.

The irony kills it.

If we are talking about the source of all the problems, foreign policy needs to be sorted and fast.
I'm a crony? I absorb info from Fox and CNN blindly and don't have a independent thought? Wow, you know more about me then I do, go you!
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GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
I'm a crony? I absorb info from Fox and CNN blindly and don't have a independent thought? Wow, you know more about me then I do, go you!
Go me! : P

For cronies, I was referring to the government and those who blindly support them on using force to establish democracy with the cost of civilian lives. Here I was not referring to the general public.

Hey even I watch Fox news and CNN. Again I was referring to individuals who absorb all the propaganda and do not question that the news they present. Again I'm sure you don't fall under this category, but I'm pretty sure there are people who do not question the news that is presented.
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Suomipoika
07-22-2009, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I disagree. USA has gotten involved in other countries affairs before. For example during Iraq and Iran war, America handed weapons to Iraq for assistance to fight against Iran.
So changing foreign policy does actually nothing if past actions are enough reason for terrorism for who knows how long?
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GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
So changing foreign policy does actually nothing if past actions are enough reason for terrorism for who knows how long?
Past and unresolved matters are what have lead to terrorism. For example Palestine and Israel conflict. These problems need to be resolved fairly and done by impartial individuals. I believe we need to speak to those who are committing terrorist activities and hear what they have to say. I'm suggesting, let’s try to behave like civilised human beings and discuss our problems rather than fighting.

I'm not saying Foreign policy is the answer for everything, but I think the first major step is to stop declaring on other countries and stop meddling in other countries affairs. For example, America at one point even considered going to war with Iran. George Bush had even labelled Iran as the ''axis of evil.''

Overall these problems will take time to heal. It would be impossible for these problems to vanish within matter of few years.
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Suomipoika
07-22-2009, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Past and unresolved matters are what have lead to terrorism. For example Palestine and Israel conflict. These problems need to be resolved fairly and done by impartial individuals. I believe we need to speak to those who are committing terrorist activities and hear what they have to say. I'm suggesting, let’s try to behave like civilised human beings and discuss our problems rather than fighting.
Right, well, you cannot blame USA for not trying to solve it by discussing instead of fighting what with how much they have tried to solve it without fighting, especially before 9/11. Or maybe you can, I don't know, we, the westeners are so easily blamed for anything and everything anyhow.

I'm not saying Foreign policy is the answer for everything, but I think the first major step is to stop declaring on other countries and stop meddling in other countries affairs. For example, America at one point even considered going to war with Iran. George Bush had even labelled Iran as the ''axis of evil.''
Your first major step didn't work before, why would it work now? Beside you must have totally missed the "great satan" term, it usually takes two to play that game, so why blame only "West"? Why not those muslims who initiated the attacks against the USA again and again in the 90's and finally in 2001?

Personally I think this is just an excuse and perhaps even further such action that leads men like the one in first post to think its okay to do what he was going to do. I mean it's our fault anyhow and the victim's skirt was too short.
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GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Right, well, you cannot blame USA for not trying to solve it by discussing instead of fighting what with how much they have tried to solve it without fighting, especially before 9/11. Or maybe you can, I don't know, we, the westeners are so easily blamed for anything and everything anyhow.

Why are people so afraid of getting the blame? Even I blame certain Muslims for killing innocent civilians. There actions cannot be justified. To make sure these things do not happen again, we must take precautions and find out what made them take these actions in the first place.

What did America do to try and negotiate with Al-Qaeda and the Taliban? In fact America even had supported Taliban them at one point. It is not impossible for America to come to terms with these people.


Your first major step didn't work before, why would it work now? Beside you must have totally missed the "great satan" term, it usually takes two to play that game, so why blame only "West"? Why not those muslims who initiated the attacks against the USA again and again in the 90's and finally in 2001?

We should try again then. America had a problem with Al-Qaeda. Why did they go to war with Iraq? Why did so many innocent civilians get killed? This is where long-term grudges take place.

Yes I blame those Muslims. I never said what they are doing is right. Both sides play dirty. I'm well aware that there are Muslims who plotting terrorist activities, and yes America has the right to defend itself.

Why do you think Al-Qaeda attacked USA twice? Don't just think Al-Qaeda attacked only America. In 1992 first terrorist attack took place as two bombs were detonated in Aden, Yemen. 2003 Istanbul bombings committed by Al-Qaeda.

Many Muslims have spoken against Al-Qaeda so many times, yet the media fails to highlight that. For example Sheikh Salman al-Ouda has spoken against Osama Bin Laden.


Personally I think this is just an excuse and perhaps even further such action that leads men like the one in first post to think its okay to do what he was going to do. I mean it's our fault anyhow and the victim's skirt was too short.
People can continue to sit here and say this is just the blame game. Yes some of the blame happens to go to America. When we examine the cause root of the problem, America to some extent is to blame. Why is that so hard to accept? Why do people get defensive?

I believe it is fine to admit what you have done is wrong. Very brave to be honest, because people don't like getting the blame. All I'm suggesting we should go to the cause root of the problem and then set up precautions to make sure they will not happen again.

I'm well aware there are some Muslims who do have extreme views. Yes I believe they should be dealt with and punished, if they harm others or plot terrorist activities.

Like you said, it takes two to play the game. Muslims acknoweldge what they have done is wrong and so should the West because both sides played dirty.
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Clover
07-22-2009, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Go me! : P

For cronies, I was referring to the government and those who blindly support them on using force to establish democracy with the cost of civilian lives. Here I was not referring to the general public.

Hey even I watch Fox news and CNN. Again I was referring to individuals who absorb all the propaganda and do not question that the news they present. Again I'm sure you don't fall under this category, but I'm pretty sure there are people who do not question the news that is presented.
Then please next time say the government, not just leave it out their to be assumed.

You never said that, you just said Americans, which means all in my book. Sorry to assume the wrong.

I don't watch fox or CNN, I watch NBC, or used too, until I just started buying USA Today's lol.
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GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Clover
Then please next time say the government, not just leave it out their to be assumed.

You never said that, you just said Americans, which means all in my book. Sorry to assume the wrong.

I don't watch fox or CNN, I watch NBC, or used too, until I just started buying USA Today's lol.
Actually I should apologise. I should not to make generalisations. Sorry.

I will be more careful.
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Suomipoika
07-22-2009, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Why are people so afraid of getting the blame? Even I blame certain Muslims for killing innocent civilians. There actions cannot be justified. To make sure these things do not happen again, we must take precautions and find out what made them take these actions in the first place.

People can continue to sit here and say this is just the blame game. Yes some of the blame happens to go to America. When we examine the cause root of the problem, America to some extent is to blame. Why is that so hard to accept? Why do people get defensive?

I believe it is fine to admit what you have done is wrong. Very brave to be honest, because people don't like getting the blame. All I'm suggesting we should go to the cause root of the problem and then set up precautions to make sure they will not happen again.

I'm well aware there are some Muslims who do have extreme views. Yes I believe they should be dealt with and punished, if they harm others or plot terrorist activities.
It's not that. The problem is your original claim that Western actions are the root cause of the problem. I can and will agree that USA and West are partly to blame for our evil actions and the contribution from those to present day situation, but only for partly.

My take on what made people like this man think this is okay:
- open and often unchallenged racism towards non-muslims, we are anything from kuffar dogs to those evil beings that want to cleanse the Europe/World from muslims.
- something Kading mentioned before: the open and often rather unchallenged respect and admiration towards groups who operate to kill innocent civilians.
- Belittling civilian casualties or targetting of civilians when they are non-muslim. For example the mentality "it's just some random rocket fire to Israel, causes no real damage, why fire back on that". Somehow I also remember comparing terrorism victims to yearly car accident figures.
- Endless victim attitude, wrongdoings of non-muslims are underlined and sensationalised while wrongdoings of muslims are belittled/ignored/claimed its not islamic and thats that.
- Unfair treatment of muslims.
- Cycle of violence, the evil actions by muslims and by westeners. Israel-Palestine conflict and the delibrate ignoring of their own side's contribution to cycle of violence by muslims and non-muslims alike.
- Ever increasing racism and hate towards muslims.

How's that? I probably missed something.

Like you said, it takes two to play the game. Muslims acknoweldge what they have done is wrong and so should the West because both sides played dirty.
I really disagree with that, my own perception is that for the most time, there is hardly any visible self-criticism among muslims, atleast if this forum and others like this are any indication. Where for example is the acceptance that palestinians/muslims are themselves also to blame for Israel-Palestine conflict?
Reply

GuestFellow
07-22-2009, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
It's not that. The problem is your original claim that Western actions are the root cause of the problem. I can and will agree that USA and West are partly to blame for our evil actions and the contribution from those to present day situation, but only for partly.
I agree. I admit I was biased.

My take on what made people like this man think this is okay:
- open and often unchallenged racism towards non-muslims, we are anything from kuffar dogs to those evil beings that want to cleanse the Europe/World from muslims.
- something Kading mentioned before: the open and often rather unchallenged respect and admiration towards groups who operate to kill innocent civilians.
- Belittling civilian casualties or targetting of civilians when they are non-muslim. For example the mentality "it's just some random rocket fire to Israel, causes no real damage, why fire back on that". Somehow I also remember comparing terrorism victims to yearly car accident figures.
- Endless victim attitude, wrongdoings of non-muslims are underlined and sensationalised while wrongdoings of muslims are belittled/ignored/claimed its not islamic and thats that.
- Unfair treatment of muslims.
- Cycle of violence, the evil actions by muslims and by westeners. Israel-Palestine conflict and the delibrate ignoring of their own side's contribution to cycle of violence by muslims and non-muslims alike.
- Ever increasing racism and hate towards muslims.

How's that? I probably missed something.
That sums it all up.

I really disagree with that, my own perception is that for the most time, there is hardly any visible self-criticism among muslims, atleast if this forum and others like this are any indication.
Some Muslims are defensive yes I do see that. However Muslims do critique amongst themselves. Some Muslims are not pleased how Saudi Arabia operates internally. We Muslims are divided, for the example the Sunni and Shia conflict. At my school, Muslims did in religious education lessons spoke against actions committed by the Taliban and some of the Muslim terrorists. So yes we critique ourselves at times, though I guess we should do it more often.

Where for example is the acceptance that palestinians/muslims are themselves also to blame for Israel-Palestine conflict?
Well I dislike Hamas tactics by attacking Israeli civillians. Civillians should not be targerted.

Other than that, are there any other actions that the Plaestinians muslims have done to some extent to be blame for this conflict? I'm well aware what Israel has done.
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KAding
07-23-2009, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Muslims care for one another. Nationality or your ethnic background does not stop one Muslim caring or helping another Muslim. Of course we help other Muslims according to Islamic principles and are not supposed to step outside the boundaries.

That is how I think Andrew Ibrahim felt, though he took the wrong course of action by making explosives. He wanted to get himself noticed and I conclude he was just looking for attention. He got interested in the wrong people, past Muslim suicide bombers and believed violence was the answer to the entire problem. Of course he was wrong.

This is why I stress for the American government and other Western countries to mind their own business. The American government used violence to sort out issues in the Middle East. Using violence does not work. Both sides loose.

If America improves on their foreign policy, listen for a change, and then people will not take drastic action. We could see decrease in terrorist activities.
There are just some abnormal things going on here. Some guy in England, who has never been wronged by any actions from the British government apparently thinks it would make sense to blow himself up among civilians in a shopping centre. What mindset causes that to happen to someone who otherwise has a quiet life far away from any war zone and suffering?

I completely agree with you that changes to Western foreign policy can help to alleviate the situation. But I also think there is something unique to the Muslim response to what are essentially local conflicts. There is an ideology at play here that turns what are regional conflicts into a global problem. IMHO Muslims cannot just blame the escalation over the last decade or so on the West.

Like I noted, there are two major issues here. Framing of conflicts in a way that escalates them and the fact that waging war for Islam is apparently a privatized endaeavor. Ideology (in this case religion) generally determines why to fight, who has to fight and how to fight. Islam prescribes all these things.

Firstly, there is the Islamic framing of conflicts, with its strong sense of victimization and powerful siege mentality. Everything is immediately framed as being a "War on Islam" by filthy kuffar who want nothing less than the destruction of Islam. I think this is rooted in strong and negative stereotypes about non-Muslims in some interpretations of Islam. Heck, look at sites like Islam-qa.com and you should understand what I mean. These negative views of the kuffar and this Pan-Islamic nationalism (aka Ummah) are making conflicts that are essentially local and about land or power (Palestine, Iraq-Kuwait, Chechnya) into global problems with a religious dimension. Suddenly every Muslim everywhere is involved and every conflict is a war on Islam. That is pretty unique IMHO, such a strong sense of brotherhood and the 'religionization' of everything.

So now wars involving Muslims are religious wars against Islam and in a religious war every Muslim has the religious duty to fight jihad. But since there is no Caliph, every Tom, Dick and Harry sets up his own enterprise to fulfill this religious duty. War is privatized. It is not fought by authorities, but by bands of religious fighters. And all this is authorized by scholars. You see this everywhere in the Islamic world and IMHO it is unique on this scale. It is similar to what happened with Communism at some point, namely during the Spanish civil war.

But these groups don't care at all about the wishes of the authorities and have their own dynamics and beliefs. For example, one of the most important grievances of Bin Laden in his 'Declaration of War' against the Crusaders and Polytheists (US) was the 'occupation' of the lands of the two Holy Places. He didn't care that US troops were in Saudi Arabia with the explicit permission of the Saudi authorities, to him it was an offense to his religion. To the Americans there was no religious dimension at all, they had their own geo-political motivations and so did the Arab governments that supported them. Ideology created a conflict where there essentially was none, since politically the Saudi's and Americans agreed. A private organization vowed to wage war against the wishes of the legitimate authorities and very much managed to escalate by bombings of US targets.

At some point apparently a precedent was set in the Islamic world that made war the business of private groups and not states. This is generally accepted and even praised in Islamic circles, because it allows Muslims to fulfill their religious duty for Jihad. To many these people are heroes. But since these jihadist organizations can never match the states they fight in their military power, they had to seek alternative ways to wage war. They had to use asymmetric means of warfare and fight like guerrillas. Which means they turn to bombings. And while Islam despises suicide, it glorifies dying for ones religion. When being desperate and fighting a superior foe (be it the Israelis, Soviet Union, United States or even their own 'apostate' governments) one seeks all the help one can get. Fueled by this incredible desire to please Allah and fight for ones religion this inevitably leads to 'martyrdom operations', simply because these human smart bombs are so much more effective than a normal 'dumb' bomb. Many Muslims obviously object to this method, but there is clearly disagreement among scholars, so the issue remains unsettled. So despite some doubts about their methods these groups are nevertheless perceived as fighting a just cause and get widespread respect and support.

So while I agree Western foreign policy is an important cause for the escalation, it is most certainly not the only one IMHO. There are some unique dynamics at play here that turn a British boy, who is otherwise not involved in the conflict into a wannabe suicide bomber.
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Muezzin
07-23-2009, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
If some people can't accept Muslims being prosecuted by a 'KUFFAR' justice system in a KUFFAR country, then they shouldn't be here. It is as simple as that.
That's a separate issue that sprouts from one of the main ones, which is some people feel that telling the 'KUFFAR' police force about cases involving Muslim suspects is in and of itself some sort of dishonourable snitching.

How can we possibly organize society and peacefully coexist if Muslims would be unwilling to accept the rule of law? It just isn't possible.
This is true.

In this particular case, if efforts to reason with the suspect failed, the evidence was such that it was right to inform the authorities, in order to prevent a possible mass murder.
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Trumble
07-23-2009, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
In this particular case, if efforts to reason with the suspect failed, the evidence was such that it was right to inform the authorities, in order to prevent a possible mass murder.
How do you address the problem I raised earlier about the suspect being tipped off by the 'efforts to reason' with him? Let us assume, as I think we have to at least in general sense, that his motivation for committing a terrorist act would be difficult to shift. Surely, from his perspective, the rational course of action would be to accelerate his plans to cause such mass murder before he was arrested, rather than just sit around waiting for the police to turn up?
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Muezzin
07-23-2009, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
How do you address the problem I raised earlier about the suspect being tipped off by the 'efforts to reason' with him? Let us assume, as I think we have to at least in general sense, that his motivation for committing a terrorist act would be difficult to shift. Surely, from his perspective, the rational course of action would be to accelerate his plans to cause such mass murder before he was arrested, rather than just sit around waiting for the police to turn up?
Assuming he is aware of your disapproval of such acts, if he knew that you knew of his plans, wouldn't he accelarate his plans regardless of whether you tried to reason with him or call the police?

Reasoning with him is not going to delay the process enough for him to practicably accelarate his plans at any rate. Once it's clear he's not going to listen to reason, tell the police. Immediately. Simple.

It's a non-issue in this case anyway. He did not carry out any attack. The police intervention precluded that possibility.
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Suomipoika
07-23-2009, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Some Muslims are defensive yes I do see that. However Muslims do critique amongst themselves. Some Muslims are not pleased how Saudi Arabia operates internally. We Muslims are divided, for the example the Sunni and Shia conflict. At my school, Muslims did in religious education lessons spoke against actions committed by the Taliban and some of the Muslim terrorists. So yes we critique ourselves at times, though I guess we should do it more often.

Well I dislike Hamas tactics by attacking Israeli civillians. Civillians should not be targerted.

Other than that, are there any other actions that the Plaestinians muslims have done to some extent to be blame for this conflict? I'm well aware what Israel has done.
Dislike? That's your criticism?

Maybe the semi constant attacks year after year? Actually not a single month last year when Israel wasn't targeted from Gaza. You don't think this is something that further fuels and keeps the conflict on going? What about the lack of similar good will gesture after the israeli withdrawal from Gaza? What about key military/political figures hiding among their families or civilians, especially during war times? I could go on about the use of children and women as suicide bombers, the teaching of hate to children for example the use of "hamas mickey mouse" and the contribution from that towards the suffering of palestinians when israeli soldiers respond to the use of children and women to attack israelis.

How exactly is the Gaza section in this forum anyway fair and balanced where there is critique amongst muslims? It's nothing but hate propaganda and demonising (something that's again tolerated if you are looking for reasons why some self proclaimed mislead muslim might get the idea killing kuffars, in this case jews, is good and islamic idea).

I mean for example we are told targetting civilians is not islamic, and muslims care so much about other muslims, thus, surely these other muslims need to act islamically too? Where's the criticism towards muslims voting a group that acts in unislamic manner or where is the action and criticism to encourage palestinian "resistance" to stop acting unislamically? Why is it that there is so much more praise for their actions that are said to be unislamic (or disliked) than encouragement for them to change their habits to something more islamic? Why such criticism shines with its absence?
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GuestFellow
07-23-2009, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Dislike? That's your criticism?
You don't like my choice of vocabulary? XD

How exactly is the Gaza section in this forum anyway fair and balanced where there is critique amongst muslims? It's nothing but hate propaganda and demonising (something that's again tolerated if you are looking for reasons why some self proclaimed mislead muslim might get the idea killing kuffars, in this case jews, is good and islamic idea)

I mean for example we are told targetting civilians is not islamic, and muslims care so much about other muslims, thus, surely these other muslims need to act islamically too? Where's the criticism towards muslims voting a group that acts in unislamic manner or where is the action and criticism to encourage palestinian "resistance" to stop acting unislamically?

Why is it that there is so much more praise for their actions that are said to be unislamic (or disliked) than encouragement for them to change their habits to something more islamic? Why such criticism shines with its absence?
First I would like to state, Muslims on this forum are not creating hate propaganda against the Jews. We not are supportive of the Zionist regime, because all it had caused is death and destruction. Muslims, Christians and Jews lived peacefully in Palestine before the Zionist regime was introduced. Compare the death rate statistics on both sides. Palestinian casualties and death rate is significantly greater than Israeli casualties/death rate. Who is doing more harm?

What criticism towards Muslim voting for Hamas? This is democracy. The Palestinian people have every right to vote for whatever government they want. Hypocritical if you ask me, western countries speak of democracy but claims Hamas is an illegitimate government even though the public voted for them. Whether Hamas behaves islamic or not, that does not fall the blame on the citizens. I'm sure you would not like it if I put the blame on the American citizens for voting George Bush, who made a mess of his own country and other countries.

What praise? Where do you see Muslims praising Hamas? If you were living in Palestine, under military control by Israel, who would, you turn to support? Israeli government have completely silenced the Palestinian people and refuse to listen to them. Yes Hamas has played dirty, but Israeli government have committed horrific acts against the Palestinian people for nearly 60 years. Imagine that...

Hamas will only change if Israel changes as well.
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Suomipoika
07-24-2009, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
First I would like to state, Muslims on this forum are not creating hate propaganda against the Jews. We not are supportive of the Zionist regime, because all it had caused is death and destruction. Muslims, Christians and Jews lived peacefully in Palestine before the Zionist regime was introduced. Compare the death rate statistics on both sides. Palestinian casualties and death rate is significantly greater than Israeli casualties/death rate. Who is doing more harm?
Being unsupportive is one thing, blaming them for everything and overlooking wrongdoings against them is another. There are very vocal Israeli and jewish groups that criticise Israeli wrongdoings, where are the Palestinian and muslim groups who do the same to wrongdoings towards Israel?

You have one side actively attacking from civilian areas along with the afore mentioned using of women and underage as suicide bombers. Contribution from Palestinian behaviour to the rise of the casualty figures is ignored and everything is solely blamed at Israel. Besides your harm comparison also ignores the fact that Israel has more efficient way to protect their civilians and Im not totally convinced Hamas isn't ready to sacrifice civilians for political gain. Of the ammount of rockets fired into Israel, its not really lack of trying on Hamas' part to kill Israelis.

Clinging on the casualty figure over a conflict like this and ignoring all those aspects details is... I dunno, where is that fairness you wanted earlier when resolving these issues. The way you speak of "the zionist regime" seems to be that what everybody else does, demonising, how does that bring peace or lessen bitterness?

Lastly, there have been open cases of hate towards jews in this forum. The Kosher thread that was initially approved in World Affairs perhaps most memorable to me due to its poetic nature, admittedly it was moved in the end, after whining from non-muslims. In any case, how do you know no muslim has created hate on this forum towards jews? Despite my over simplification, what leads to such a blanket statement and what happened to all that how hard is it to people to admit the blame?

What criticism towards Muslim voting for Hamas? This is democracy. The Palestinian people have every right to vote for whatever government they want. Hypocritical if you ask me, western countries speak of democracy but claims Hamas is an illegitimate government even though the public voted for them. Whether Hamas behaves islamic or not, that does not fall the blame on the citizens. I'm sure you would not like it if I put the blame on the American citizens for voting George Bush, who made a mess of his own country and other countries.
Perhaps the samekind of criticism like there is towards voting BNP or I don't know, Geert Wilders? You are aware that even western goverments have been boycotted by other western goverments when their people made the wrong choice? Austria and Jörg Haider anyone? It's all part of democracy, we voted for something that was unhappy with what the Austrians voted for and then we showed it to them by boycotting them at EU politics and byrocracy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000...stria.ianblack

How does democracy mean that if people pick the racist, or in this case unislamic choice it should not be criticised? What does it matter if the public voted for Hamas if they act in unislamic manner and nevertheless muslims vote for them? We criticise people who vote for racists or other wrong things in our minds, why not criticise those who vote for people who act unislamically?

What praise? Where do you see Muslims praising Hamas? If you were living in Palestine, under military control by Israel, who would, you turn to support? Israeli government have completely silenced the Palestinian people and refuse to listen to them. Yes Hamas has played dirty, but Israeli government have committed horrific acts against the Palestinian people for nearly 60 years. Imagine that...

Hamas will only change if Israel changes as well.
Right, wasn't so hard to find praise/support for Hamas:
http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaz...ried-gaza.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaz...sed-force.html

I wonder how many more praises one can find only at the Gaza section of the forum.

You claim there is critique among muslims yet... well.. when points are raised how somethings are not criticised by muslims, all that ended up happening here is criticising Israel. What happened to agreeing with how both sides ignore their sides contribution to the cycle of violence?
Reply

GuestFellow
07-24-2009, 02:04 AM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Being unsupportive is one thing, blaming them for everything and overlooking wrongdoings against them is another. There are very vocal Israeli and jewish groups that criticise Israeli wrongdoings, where are the Palestinian and muslim groups who do the same to wrongdoings towards Israel?
No one wants to see any harm upon the Israel civilians. I'm well aware of Jewish individuals who are against the Zionist regime. It is possible for the Jews and Muslims to live in peace. There were already Jews living in Palestine. However all the Zionist regime did is cause conflict between two followers of religion. Why can't Muslims and Jews live in one state? Zionist regime has divided lands.

You have one side actively attacking from civilian areas along with the afore mentioned using of women and underage as suicide bombers. Contribution from Palestinian behaviour to the rise of the casualty figures is ignored and everything is solely blamed at Israel. Besides your harm comparison also ignores the fact that Israel has more efficient way to protect their civilians and Im not totally convinced Hamas isn't ready to sacrifice civilians for political gain. Of the ammount of rockets fired into Israel, its not really lack of trying on Hamas' part to kill Israelis.
This is a conflict. Of course civilians are going to be killed. If you go to another country and force people out of their homes, don't expect people not to fight back. The reason many blame Israel because they refuse to listen to the Palestinian people. You are going to expect people take drastic action. How else are they going to get themselves heard?

Clinging on the casualty figure over a conflict like this and ignoring all those aspects details is... I dunno, where is that fairness you wanted earlier when resolving these issues. The way you speak of "the zionist regime" seems to be that what everybody else does, demonising, how does that bring peace or lessen bitterness?
Tell me what good the Zionist regime has done?

Lastly, there have been open cases of hate towards jews in this forum. The Kosher thread that was initially approved in World Affairs perhaps most memorable to me due to its poetic nature, admittedly it was moved in the end, after whining from non-muslims. In any case, how do you know no muslim has created hate on this forum towards jews? Despite my over simplification, what leads to such a blanket statement and what happened to all that how hard is it to people to admit the blame?
Seriously I never heard a Muslim member on this forum actually stating they hate Jews. Where did you get the impression we on this forum hate Jews?

I know Muslim in reality hate Jews but I've yet come across any member who hates Jews on this forum.

If you really think this is an issue, why did you not contact the moderator about this?

Perhaps the samekind of criticism like there is towards voting BNP or I don't know, Geert Wilders? You are aware that even western goverments have been boycotted by other western goverments when their people made the wrong choice? Austria and Jörg Haider anyone? It's all part of democracy, we voted for something that was unhappy with what the Austrians voted for and then we showed it to them by boycotting them at EU politics and byrocracy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000...stria.ianblack

How does democracy mean that if people pick the racist, or in this case unislamic choice it should not be criticised? What does it matter if the public voted for Hamas if they act in unislamic manner and nevertheless muslims vote for them? We criticise people who vote for racists or other wrong things in our minds, why not criticise those who vote for people who act unislamically?
Palestine voted for Hamas because they believe it will grant them back their freedom. They are fighting against the Israeli military oppression. Yes tactics they use are not right but this is the sad fact about any conflict. Yes you may critique Hamas but I'm against critiquing the people. How will the Palestinian people are know what tactics Hamas going to use are un-islamic?


Right, wasn't so hard to find praise/support for Hamas:
http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaz...ried-gaza.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaz...sed-force.html

I wonder how many more praises one can find only at the Gaza section of the forum.

You claim there is critique among muslims yet... well.. when points are raised how somethings are not criticised by muslims, all that ended up happening here is criticising Israel. What happened to agreeing with how both sides ignore their sides contribution to the cycle of violence?
Hamas martyr Siyam buried in Gaza
Sat, 17 Jan 2009
Thousands of people have attended the funeral of the interior minister in the Hamas-led government, Saeed Siyam, who was killed in an Israeli raid.

Palestinians carried the body of Siyam during his funeral in Gaza City on Friday, chanting resistance songs.

An Israeli air strike in Beit Lahiyah on Thursday hit the house of Siyam's brother, killing Siyam, his brother, Ayad, and his son, as well as 20 others.
How nice...

Siyam, 50, is the most senior Hamas figure killed in Operation Cast Lead so far. He was also considered the most senior Hamas figure killed by Israel since the assassination of Dr. Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi in 2004.

Earlier, Hamas pledged to wreak awful revenge on Israel for killing the movement's interior minister, saying, "His blood will not have been shed in vain. We will respond with actions and not words."

Since Israel started Operation Cast Lead on December 27, to put an end to rocket attacks on its southern cities, at least 1,170 Palestinians have been killed, with some 5,150 others wounded.
How people fail to see the harm that has came out of this conflict.

Yes I'm not pleased with some of their actions, but I do support them to fight against the Zionist regime. Hamas should be allowed to fight for what they have lost. America and Israel honestly don't care about the rights of the Palestinian people. If they did, they would have done something by now in approximately sixty years. Palestine is under military control and Hamas is fighting for their rights of their people.

So overall, personally I have yet come across a member who stated they hate Jews. I know members that hate Zionism on this forum. Members do support Hamas since they want to fight for Palestinian freedom however does not mean we support every action they take. Hamas has been elected by their people because they want their freedom back. I don't blame them for voting for a party who will fight back the regime, of sixty years of torture the Palestinian people through.

BTW we are off topic here. Shall we create another thread to discuss this?
Reply

Suomipoika
07-24-2009, 09:45 AM
This is a conflict. Of course civilians are going to be killed. If you go to another country and force people out of their homes, don't expect people not to fight back. The reason many blame Israel because they refuse to listen to the Palestinian people. You are going to expect people take drastic action. How else are they going to get themselves heard?

Tell me what good the Zionist regime has done?

Seriously I never heard a Muslim member on this forum actually stating they hate Jews. Where did you get the impression we on this forum hate Jews?

I know Muslim in reality hate Jews but I've yet come across any member who hates Jews on this forum.
You are missing the point. It's not that Israel has done wrong, they have. It is that there is no real criticism to the evil perpetrated by the self-proclaimed muslims. Ive been trying to point out the wrong or questionable Palestinians have done as you asked, and all you really end up doing is criticising Israel, time and again. So I ask, again, what happened to agreeing with both sides ignore their own contribution to the cycle of violence.

If you really think this is an issue, why did you not contact the moderator about this?
Because I'd really like see muslims act against it and other racism without the whining kuffar.

Palestine voted for Hamas because they believe it will grant them back their freedom. They are fighting against the Israeli military oppression. Yes tactics they use are not right but this is the sad fact about any conflict. Yes you may critique Hamas but I'm against critiquing the people. How will the Palestinian people are know what tactics Hamas going to use are un-islamic?
The same way people know BNP is racist? Hamas and their targetting of civilians had been around long time before the elections and Palestinians were muslims and reading Quran and how killing civilians is wrong long before Hamas.

How nice...

How people fail to see the harm that has came out of this conflict.

Yes I'm not pleased with some of their actions, but I do support them to fight against the Zionist regime. Hamas should be allowed to fight for what they have lost. America and Israel honestly don't care about the rights of the Palestinian people. If they did, they would have done something by now in approximately sixty years. Palestine is under military control and Hamas is fighting for their rights of their people.
Yes, shall we start a competion where each other picks senceless acts of violence perpetrated by other side? Besides you again ignore the reasons why Israel behaves this way. If the harmful actions of Israel causes wrongdoings by Palestinians then surely the things you are not pleased with causes wrongdoings by Israelis.

What stops someone supporting Israeli side saying "Yes I'm not pleased with some of their actions, but I do support them to fight against the Palestinian terrorism"? He is displeased by the bombing you just quoted, but he supports Israel because they are the right good side according to him. Such position in my opinion is what leads to the cycle of violence, the overlooking of wrongdoings for the greater cause.

But planket statements of blame are fun, maybe something about if there was any care for Israeli civilian victims and the unislamic manner of fighting, they would have done something about it now in the approximately sixty years?

So overall, personally I have yet come across a member who stated they hate Jews. I know members that hate Zionism on this forum. Members do support Hamas since they want to fight for Palestinian freedom however does not mean we support every action they take. Hamas has been elected by their people because they want their freedom back. I don't blame them for voting for a party who will fight back the regime, of sixty years of torture the Palestinian people through.

BTW we are off topic here. Shall we create another thread to discuss this?
I don't think its off topic. Because, what is the implication of all this in the case of Ibrahim. He sees that fighting unislamically brings you martyrdom and all that really matters is fighting back against the oppression of muslims, not how you fight.

I think this line of outright ignoring of wrongdoings by muslims and calling them martyrs because they fight for the right cause and blaming their enemies for everything is one of the reasons what leads people to think that what they do is right.
Reply

GuestFellow
07-24-2009, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Suomipoika
You are missing the point. It's not that Israel has done wrong, they have. It is that there is no real criticism to the evil perpetrated by the self-proclaimed muslims. Ive been trying to point out the wrong or questionable Palestinians have done as you asked, and all you really end up doing is criticising Israel, time and again. So I ask, again, what happened to agreeing with both sides ignore their own contribution to the cycle of violence.
Oh I see what you mean now.

Because I'd really like see muslims act against it and other racism without the whining kuffar.
But I haven't seen Muslims here actually hate Jews. I know they hate Zionism.

The same way people know BNP is racist? Hamas and their targetting of civilians had been around long time before the elections and Palestinians were muslims and reading Quran and how killing civilians is wrong long before Hamas.
The British citizens know what they are voting for. The Palestinian civilians didn't entirely know how Hamas was going to act. No one knows what actions the government take and know what the consequences might occur during a conflict. Did America citizens knew what action the Bush Administration was going to take against the war on terror? They used torture upon suspects and the public did not foresee these actions.

In wars and conflict, I don't blame the people. I blame the government and their military actions.

Yes, shall we start a competion where each other picks senceless acts of violence perpetrated by other side? Besides you again ignore the reasons why Israel behaves this way. If the harmful actions of Israel causes wrongdoings by Palestinians then surely the things you are not pleased with causes wrongdoings by Israelis.
Israel behaves this way because they have been attacked by Hamas. Hamas attacks Israel because they want their land back. I'm not even justifying Hamas actions. I already stated I dislike some of their tactics.


What stops someone supporting Israeli side saying "Yes I'm not pleased with some of their actions, but I do support them to fight against the Palestinian terrorism"? He is displeased by the bombing you just quoted, but he supports Israel because they are the right good side according to him. Such position in my opinion is what leads to the cycle of violence, the overlooking of wrongdoings for the greater cause.
The cycle of violence won't end if both sides are going to start negotiating. Yes I agree.


But planket statements of blame are fun, maybe something about if there was any care for Israeli civilian victims and the unislamic manner of fighting, they would have done something about it now in the approximately sixty years?
I'm blaming Israel for how the conflict began. I'm blaming Hamas for the actions they have taken against the innocent civilllians.

I don't think its off topic. Because, what is the implication of all this in the case of Ibrahim. He sees that fighting unislamically brings you martyrdom and all that really matters is fighting back against the oppression of muslims, not how you fight.
Okay.

I think this line of outright ignoring of wrongdoings by muslims and calling them martyrs because they fight for the right cause and blaming their enemies for everything is one of the reasons what leads people to think that what they do is right.
I didn't ignore the wrongdoings of Muslims. I told you I dislike the actions taken by Hamas. In every conflict civilians die. We all support America during world war two, but that doesn't mean we support the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Like I stated before, I don't approve of Hamas actions. I know what they have done. They attacked Israeli civilians and hide in area where there is a high population of Palestinian civilians, so Israel would be reluctant to attack them because they shall be killing off civilians during the conflict. Hamas even uses their people as a human shield while they attack Israeli civilians. I consider that cowardly act. I already agreed with you right from the beginning that I dislike Hamas actions.
Reply

Woodrow
07-25-2009, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
I'm confused about what could possible convince a convert to Islam to do something like this. How could he believe Islam condones this and still be convinced that Islam is the right path? There are a minority of 'scholars' who attempt to justify this from a theological point of view as well. Their 'evidences' from the Qur'an/Sunnah may be convincing to those who are weak in knowledge but as far as I am aware the vast majority of scholars condemn this as being far removed from the teachings of Islam, and for that reason, so do I.
One of the saddest things I see on occasion is young people converting (I use the word convert, as they are not reverting) to Islam because they hate society, are loners and outcasts. They come to Islam for the wrong reasons, listen to the wrong people and use Islam to justify their radical behavior.
Reply

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