issues with Song of solomon

[piers]

I do not understand the problems muslims have with song of solomon. It is a book about love between a man and his wife. Also i notice a bit of orwellian double speak, on one hand this book is some outrageous filth which muslims should shy away from and on the other hand it prophesies mohammed. You can't have it both ways. Either it is about mohammed or the love of two people. which is it?

[Imam]

Greetings

First:

I don't think that the The song of solomon has passage clearly refers to Mohamed peace be upon him,though other passage refers to him in other books...

second

I do not understand the problems muslims have with song of solomon.

It is not a problem with Muslims ,it is the problem that have all the descent people with filth and pornography wherever you may find it ..... in media,writings,so called sacred books etc...


Nobody can deny that the Bible contains material so shocking and pornographic that we would not want our children to be exposed to it.

A sample:

"and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions." (Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV)


"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." (Ezekiel 4:12-13)


"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" (II Kings 18:27)



"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart." (II Samuel 6:14-16)


And don't forget the amazing story of the Levite's concubine?

Once upon a time in the Twilight Zone, a certain Levite and his concubine, overtaken by darkness on a journey home from visiting the concubine's father, stopped in the town of Gibeah and found no one willing to give them lodging (Judges 19:10-15). Luck was on their side, however, because an "old man" returning from work in his field saw them sitting in the street and offered them shelter in his house (vs:16-21). So the kind old man took them home, fed their donkeys, washed their feet, and gave them food.

As quite often happens, good luck is short-lived, and so it was in the case of the Levite and his concubine. Word of their presence got around to certain "perverted men" in the community (v:22), who came to the old man's house and said, "Bring out the man who came to your house, that we may know him" (v:22). [I will assume that everyone understands what "know" means in the biblical sense.] The old man was shocked at the demand. "No, my brethren!" he said to the mob. "I beg you, do not act so wickedly! Seeing this man has come into my house, do not commit this outrage."

A situation like this, of course, would require delicate negotiating, which the old man proved himself qualified to do. "Look," he said to the mob, "here is my virgin daughter and the man's concubine: let me bring them out now. Humble them, and do with them as you please; but to this man do not do such a vile thing!" [As Dave Barry would say, I'm not making this up. It's all right there in the book.] Needless to say, this kind old man wasn't nominated for Father of the Year, but, then again, maybe he was. After all, this is a story from the Twilight Zone where reality is so distorted that anything can happen. Besides, in a place where women were considered chattel, as they were in biblical times, a man who was willing to sacrifice his daughter in order to save a male guest from gang-buggery would probably have been highly esteemed. If this seems unlikely, just remember that this is a story from the Twilight Zone of God's inspired word.

At any rate, when the mob would not heed the old man's advice, the Levite decided to take matters into his own hands. "So the man took his concubine and brought her out to them [the mob], and they knew her and abused her all night until morning" (v:25). Now whatever happened to good old-fashioned chivalry? There was certainly none to be found in the conduct of this Levite, or perhaps it was simply a matter of the spark having gone out of his relationship with his concubine. Anyway, he threw her to the mob, who abused her all night long. Then "when the day began to break, they let her go" (v:25).

The concubine then went and "fell down at the door of the man's house where her master was" to wait until it was light (v:27). When the Levite arose and came outside, he saw his concubine lying at the door with her hands on the threshold. Did the man lift his lover from the ground to soothe and comfort her, perhaps to explain that the unrelenting demands of the mob had left him no choice? Indeed, he didn't, because--and I must remind you again that I'm not making this up--God's inspired word tells us that he said to the woman, "Get up and let us be going." But there was no answer; the concubine was dead.

The Levite then did the only thing any self-respecting master of a dead concubine could do. He lifted her onto his donkey and went home, where he "took a knife, laid hold of his concubine, and divided her into twelve pieces, limb by limb" (v:29). Then he sent "her," presumably a piece here and a piece there, "throughout the territory of Israel" so that all could see what the men of Gibeah had done. God's word tells us that "all who saw it" said that "(n)o such deed has been done or seen from the day that the children of Israel came up from the land of Egypt" (v:30). We can only wonder what "it" was that the people of Israel saw. Surely, it couldn't have been all the pieces of the concubine's body, because the implication is that the butchered body had been parceled out to the twelve tribes of Israel. So presumably all that most Israelites saw was the "it" [one piece] that was sent to their particular tribe or region.

At any rate, when the grisly deliveries were completed, the Israelites were properly indignant and decided to take action against the perverted men who had had the audacity to ravish the Levite's concubine to death. That, however, is another story. For now, let's just glean an important moral from this story from the pages of Twilight-Zone literature. Immorality is obviously on the rise in this country, so we are told by Bible believers, and the only hope we have of reversing the trend is to restore God's word to a place of honor in our society. We should work to purge our libraries and bookstores of filthy literature and encourage the reading of the Bible. If our young people would just read more wholesome stories like the Levite's concubine rather than the paperback trash that's so commonplace in our society, within a few years we would surely see a remarkable resurgence of old-fashioned biblical morality. Wouldn't it be wonderful to live in a society in which most people believed in the noble moral principles taught in the story of the Levite's concubine?

[piers]

Nobody can deny that the Bible contains material so shocking and pornographic that we would not want our children to be exposed to it.

A sample:

"and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions." (Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV)


"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." (Ezekiel 4:12-13)


"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" (II Kings 18:27)



"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart." (II Samuel 6:14-16)


And don't forget the amazing story the Levite's concubine?

lol I can't believe you are serious. the idea of saying this text is pornographic is ridiculous because they are descriptions of depravity, depravity that God was discouraging.

lets get a web definition:

pornography: creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire


and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions." (Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV)

now lets take each of those passages.
ezekiel 23
18 When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister.

It is very clear this is a judgement from God. The intention is not to stimulate sexual desire and if you or other muslims find talk of donkeys stimulates your sexual desire then you need help. This whole passage is about making the depravity of israel apparent. To say this pornographic doesnt work cus it doesnt fit the definition because the purpose of it is not sexual stimulation and that is clear from the text.


"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." (Ezekiel 4:12-13)

for this verse if you find dung sexually stimulating then oh dear. Only people with strange attractions would find that sexually stimulating.


"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" (II Kings 18:27)

once again if that scripture is sexually stimulating then you have issues.

"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart." (II Samuel 6:14-16)

This is the worst set of verses you quoted it just describes david worshipping God bringing the ark of the covernant.

I mean seriously where do you get this stuff? are you just drip fed from your imams and then just regurgitate it?

This whole pornography thing is probs the worst claim against the bible that I have seen made. The funny part is you as muslims have no problem accepting mohammed consumated a marriage with a 9 year old. It seems like there is a double standard, the word breast is mentioned in the bible and it is filthy and yet a 9 year old consumating a marriage is okay.

[جوري]

we have no problems with his marriage with a nine year old, I suppose the same way you have no problems with David taking a concubine on his death bed :
Abishag Was a young virgin from the town of Shunem, North of Jezreel and Mount Gilboa, in the territory of Issachar. (Jos 19:17-23) She was "beautiful in the extreme" and was chosen by David's servants to become the nurse and companion of the king during his final days.
see 1Ki 1:1-4.
David was now about 70 years of age (2Sa 5:4, 5), and as a result of debilitation he had little body heat. Abishag waited on him during the day, doubtless brightening the surroundings with her youthful freshness and beauty, and at night she "lay in the king's bosom"
to give him warmth, Abishag was viewed as being in the position of wife or concubine of David. As such, by a rule in the ancient East, she would become the property of David's heir at the time of his death.



or having it be OK in the free world to marry at age 7

American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven.

http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm

or be married off as an infant

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law?
by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

Our Sages state1 that "it is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry.'" It is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry'!
In ancient (and not so ancient) times however, marriage was often-times celebrated at a rather young age. Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl may be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three.2 A boy may betroth and marry at the age of thirteen.3


The Qur'an takes over the role of old scriptures, and none of them can play its role. It is the will of Almighty Allah that the Qur'an will remain the final arbiter until the Day of Judgment. so it isn't just the song of Solomon it is all within the previous scriptures.. what is agreeable with the Quran is good and well, but it doesn't mean much save to its own adherents!




in closure, indeed we sit there all day and listen to our imams how did you guess? is it because you too seem a product of indoctrination yourself and fond of projection? take a hike!

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[Imam]

lol I can't believe you are serious. the idea of saying this text is pornographic is ridiculous.

What parent would want their children reading about comparing the size of men's penises to donkey genitals and the sperm flow to that of horse issues?



any descent person would find the passages I quoted to be filthy ,improper and shouldn't be included in a book said to be the word of God ....

but I feel no wonder now,as the man who been exposed to filth in media from childhood would never be troubled by what I have just quoted..


Why would the supposed moral lessons should include filthy details,is something beyond me!!!

as if God felt that without describing the size of the members,the semen of Aholas,aholiba's lovers ,the reader would miss the moral lesson behind !!!


such shameful details of naked ,adulterer prophets, dung ,piss ,members ,amount of semen etc......prove clearly that the writers of the Bibles were inspired not by God but Satan while writing such shameful ,improper details.



Note:
sorry for the descent readers,for quoting such filth (but that is what the bible tells) ...... I hope even that this thread wouldn't continue ,otherwise I will have to bring more from the bottom of the barrel .....

[جوري]

indeed, hope this thread is closed.. I don't see any use arguing with folks of his ilk.. fresh off a corrupt evangelist boat straight unto LI...

Not sure why they are not as concerned with atheists in their back ally before they get all brave on an Islamic board?

:w:

[GreyKode]

Note:
sorry for the descent readers,for quoting such filth (but that is what the bible tells) ...... I hope even that this thread wouldn't continue ,otherwise I will have to bring more from the bottom of the barrel .....

pffft bottom of the barrel nice one, sorry man couldn't stop myself from laughin
HAHAHAA....

No offense fellow chrisitian members.