Mustafa, if you want to converse with me, let's do it out in the open forum.

[Grace Seeker]

MustafaMc, this is the second time in less than a month that you have made comments that demand feedback, but you neither post it in the thread nor make yourself available by PM. Rather you just post your comments by giving me some negative reps, and then expect that to be it.

I think that people who expect to be taken seriously need to make their comments in the light of day. So let's bring this one to light and if you want to make any more comments you can make your point here for all to see.

This series begins with Imam responding to one of Follower's posts:

whether breathed or thrown away to,we arrive to the same conclusion..

The spirit (which been blown,thrown away) is a spirit from God not the spirit of God.

If the the spirit of God is what had been thrown to Jesus,then we had the infinite inside the finite and the father Jesus been talking to, was a void.

I then picked up on part of what Imam said and made the following post:

the infinite inside the finite

I know you probably didn't intend to be so prophetic, but I actually think that is one of the better definitions of the incarnation that I have ever read. Do you mind if I use it?

Then you gave me the following negative rep:

from MustafaMc:
Quite typical to pick only the part not contrary to your dogma. Why don't you quote him in full and not leave off "...and the Father, (my edits) Jesus been talking to, was a void." Implying that the Father didn't exist if Jesus was God.

Well there are several reasons that I didn't quote Imam in the full.
1) He made more than one statement. There was the statement that "If the the spirit of God is what had been thrown to Jesus,then we had the infinite inside the finite...." AND there was another statement "If the the spirit of God is what had been thrown to Jesus,then ... the father Jesus been talking to, was a void." The use of the conjunction made these two independent statements.

2) I only found one of the two statements that I felt merited a comment. It was in the first statement that I felt Imam said something quite extraordinary. Though I had the sense that he meant his comment to illustrate one of the problems of Christianity, I was glad to own it (whether he sees it as a problem or not) as at least being a proper statement about what we believe.

3) The second statement about a void I did not comment on because I see no need to counter every single statement that a Muslim makes with regard to Christianity. I have done enough of this. I suspect it is self-evident that even though I agree that the incarnation has the infinite within the finite that I don't believe this means that Jesus is praying to a void absent of the father. Further, when Imam put up his question marks in response to what I had written, I did go on to expand on my previous remarks and include that second concept in my discussion.

So, I guess you are really wrong in saying that I left of the remainder of Imam's comments. If you were read more than just the one post you would see that I did subsequently address that as well:

What's your question? I was entirely serious. When we Christians speak of the incarnation, we are talking precisely about what you defined here: "the infinite inside the finite."

Jesus is the incarnation of the infinite God of the universe in the finite body of a human being. We're not ascribing partners to God at all. We are saying something much more than that. (And I expect even more troubling to Muslims; it certainly is to Jews.) We are saying that God has come in the flesh and walked among us. Of course we don't think that there is a void left in heaven simply because God is incarnated on earth. We understand that God being infinite is not limited to just being in the human body of Jesus, but can be everywhere and especially here both at the very same time and that there is no inherent contradiction in that statement. But your statement is just a an excellent way of saying what Paul said about Jesus -- that all the fullness of God was present and dwelling bodily in the person of Jesus.

But most importantly, since when is one required to quote the whole of someone's post when one is neither attacking it, nor questioning it, nor even critiqueing it, but is simply adding a comment to one portion of it which was an independent thought all on its own? I did not misquote him. I acknowledged that I understood the way I was using the phrase was probably not what he intended when he wrote it. And the original context in which Imam had made his statement was right there for everyone to see and read for themselves, if they so desired. Yes, I think such an act of picking only the part not contrary to my dogma probably is typical for such a comment; not only typical, but also entirely appropriate.

[Grace Seeker]

from MustafaMc
Paul - founder, shaper, champion - or - originator, mis-shaper, hijacker? Is there any evidence that he EVER even met Jesus?

Not in secular literature. But no one ever suggests that Jesus and Paul had any contact on earth prior to Jesus' ascension to heaven.

However, if you accept Paul's own testimony, he had some sort of encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus. It is recorded in both Acts 9 and Acts 22, and also probably implied in Galatians 1:15-16. Some people have problems with these accounts because of the discrepancies that exists between them. Others are able to accept the larger description that there did exist some sort of encounter between the two even if the exact details of the event are unclear.

[glo]

Mustafa, I agree with Grace Seeker.
It looks to me like you are keen for discussion and debate. Why not join the wider forum community again and participate in our conversations. :)

[Cabdullahi]

The rumble in the jungle

MustafaMc vs Graceseeker

lets make it pay-per-view

its going to be the greatest fight in LI history

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[Grace Seeker]

The rumble in the jungle

MustafaMc vs Graceseeker

lets make it pay-per-view

its going to be the greatest fight in LI history

Hardly. I still consider MustafaMc a friend. I just don't think he wants to get embroiled in endless debate. Who can blame him, neither do I. I know I'm certainly posting less; haven't challenged Grenville or Yusuf's opinion on anything in over a month. :statisfie

But, MustafacMc obviously continues to read these forums and every now and then he makes a comment on one of my posts by means of reputation points. Sometimes they are critical, sometimes they are positive, sometimes he has a question. That's all well and good. It's just that for me it is frustrating because on those times when it is a question or I wish to ask a question in return, I can't just respond to his post. Having posted this thread allows the conversation to continue. And that's what the purpose of it is for me. So, by utilizing this means, it really isn't a big deal anymore.

[Grace Seeker]

rep note received from MustafaMc
I believe that you are a good, honest man who is sincere in his faith - I can respect that :-) BTW, I hope that your new grandson is doing well.

And it's also frustrating cause there is no way for me to politely and privately respond with a simple "Thanks!". So, I'll do it here:

Thanks. I appreciate that.




Question for the mods: Are proud new grandparents allowed to posts pics of the world's most beautiful baby? :D

[glo]

Question for the mods: Are proud new grandparents allowed to posts pics of the world's most beautiful baby? :D

I'd certainly love to see pictures of the world's most beautiful baby!!
What an opportunity! :)

[Cabdullahi]

you can share with us the pictures as a treat if the mods accept once the battle is over........


ladies and gentlemen we welcome you, myself abdullahii and my colleague bushy to the championships we've all been waiting for its MustafaMc vs Graceseeker

Abdullahii: its graceseeker standing on the canvas .....OH NO he's clenching his bible ever so closely,........i think its the new international version what do you think bushy?

Bushy: yeah it is Abdullahii its a strange move we would've thought he was going to carry the american standard bible but none the less he looks ready for no grace seeking today

Abdullahii:The other opponent today is MustafaMc once famous for publically declaring his retirement...speaking of Mustafa mc where is he? maybe some sort of delay?

Bushy:Apparently he's in the changing room for final preparations....some sources say he was smelling the ground with his posterior pointing upwards...sounds strange to me? over to you Abdullahii

Abdullahii :Final prayers it could be ?

[Grace Seeker]

I'd certainly love to see pictures of the world's most beautiful baby!!
What an opportunity! :)

Happy to show them, but I want to be sensitive to the community we are in. I know we are not to post photos of human images for our avatar and the only photos with people in them I've ever seen were those that were used to illustrate practices that Muslims condemn such as what is seen as praying to the statutes. I've never seen a family shot, so I may just have to email them to you or something.

[syilla]

Question for the mods: Are proud new grandparents allowed to posts pics of the world's most beautiful baby? :D

i think only thru pms...huhuhu

[Grace Seeker]

Editted out.

I was going to post my daughter's blogspot which includes pictures. But I thought better of it. She doesn't know any of you all, and while she would welcome any viewing the blog, if someone she didn't know chose to leave a post she might feel violated. So, if anyone really does want to look (but not touch) PM me and I'll see what I can do.

[Grace Seeker]

i hope ive not irritated you but my post was just for comedy purposes

I can take a joke. Think it was even well done. But I do wonder if everyone would have laughed if I had been the one to write a joke with a line which spoke about a Muslim's prayers and described them as "smelling the ground with his posterior pointing upwards"?

Anyway, you are right on that I'm carrying an NIV. But instead of being clenched in my hand, I've got it open to Genesis 31:28 -- "You didn't even let me kiss my grandchildren and my daughters good-by."

[MustafaMc]

And it's also frustrating cause there is no way for me to politely and privately respond with a simple "Thanks!". So, I'll do it here:

Thanks. I appreciate that.

Gene, you are welcome - I meant what I said, but still there remains the fundamental differences in our faith that is a "Berlin Wall" between our hearts.

My recent return was in response to your invitation in this thread. I had responded with an expose on a note to you, "Well, I agree that he (Paul) claimed to have had a personal encounter with Jesus and he probably did interact with "someone" ;-) on a supernatural level." I replied to your response line-by-line and I had other in-depth exchanges over the past 2 weeks with other Christians on other threads. All of these posts are now lost in cyber-space that I wish to replace with this post.

Throughout my participation on LI/IB, I have shared what I believe is the Truth to the very utmost of my ability, but I fully realize that guidance comes only from Allah. I believe that I have discharged my responsibility to share my understanding of the Message of Islam on IB. May Allah forgive me for my shortcomings in these efforts.

In closing, I want to share a few ayat from the Qur'an that come to my mind:

5:48 To you, O Muhammad, We have revealed this Book with the truth. It confirms whatever has remained intact in the scriptures which came before it and also to safeguard it. Therefore, judge between people according to Allah's revelations and do not yield to their vain desires diverging from the truth which has come to you. We have ordained a law and a Way of life for each of you. If Allah wanted He could have made all of you a single nation. But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you; therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to Allah; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you dispute.

2:137-139 So, if they accept Islam like you, they shall be rightly guided; if they reject it, they will surely fall into dissension; Allah will be your sufficient defender against them, and He hears and knows everything. Baptism is from Allah; and who is better than Allah in baptizing? Him do we worship. Say, O Muhammad: "Would you dispute with us concerning Allah, who is our Lord and your Lord as well? We shall be accountable to Him for our deeds and you for yours; to Him alone we are devoted.

39:11-15 Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah and serve none but Him and I am commanded to be the first of those who submit to Allah in Islam." Say: "Surely, I am afraid if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty Day." Say: "Allah Alone I worship, and Him Alone I serve. As for yourselves, I have conveyed to you the Truth and if you do not believe, then worship what you want besides Him." Say: "The real losers are those who will lose their souls as well their families on the Day of Resurrection. Ah! That will indeed be an open Loss."

I hope that you will take the time to read, "The Sealed Nectar: Biography of the Noble Prophet" and remember my visit to you when you do. I wish that you and other Christian IB members whom I have interacted with (including Glo, Sojourner, Grenville, Fedos, Hugo and others) will be rewarded for the best of your intentions and deeds with Guidance to the Straight Way that leads to Paradise.

Peace upon you and all "Seekers of Grace",
Mustafa

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ Peace,


I was wondering about posting pm in the open forum . What other participants think about it ? Without mentioning one's name , may be it's ok but to let others know what a specific person wrote what ..... personally I don't feel comfortable reading those posts.

[MuslimahBarb]

Gene, you are welcome - I meant what I said, but still there remains the fundamental differences in our faith that is a "Berlin Wall" between our hearts.

My recent return was in response to your invitation in this thread. I had responded with an expose on a note to you, "Well, I agree that he (Paul) claimed to have had a personal encounter with Jesus and he probably did interact with "someone" ;-) on a supernatural level." I replied to your response line-by-line and I had other in-depth exchanges over the past 2 weeks with other Christians on other threads. All of these posts are now lost in cyber-space that I wish to replace with this post.

Throughout my participation on LI/IB, I have shared what I believe is the Truth to the very utmost of my ability, but I fully realize that guidance comes only from Allah. I believe that I have discharged my responsibility to share my understanding of the Message of Islam on IB. May Allah forgive me for my shortcomings in these efforts.

In closing, I want to share a few ayat from the Qur'an that come to my mind:

5:48 To you, O Muhammad, We have revealed this Book with the truth. It confirms whatever has remained intact in the scriptures which came before it and also to safeguard it. Therefore, judge between people according to Allah's revelations and do not yield to their vain desires diverging from the truth which has come to you. We have ordained a law and a Way of life for each of you. If Allah wanted He could have made all of you a single nation. But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you; therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to Allah; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you dispute.

2:137-139 So, if they accept Islam like you, they shall be rightly guided; if they reject it, they will surely fall into dissension; Allah will be your sufficient defender against them, and He hears and knows everything. Baptism is from Allah; and who is better than Allah in baptizing? Him do we worship. Say, O Muhammad: "Would you dispute with us concerning Allah, who is our Lord and your Lord as well? We shall be accountable to Him for our deeds and you for yours; to Him alone we are devoted.

39:11-15 Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah and serve none but Him and I am commanded to be the first of those who submit to Allah in Islam." Say: "Surely, I am afraid if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty Day." Say: "Allah Alone I worship, and Him Alone I serve. As for yourselves, I have conveyed to you the Truth and if you do not believe, then worship what you want besides Him." Say: "The real losers are those who will lose their souls as well their families on the Day of Resurrection. Ah! That will indeed be an open Loss."

I hope that you will take the time to read, "The Sealed Nectar: Biography of the Noble Prophet" and remember my visit to you when you do. I wish that you and other Christian IB members whom I have interacted with (including Glo, Sojourner, Grenville, Fedos, Hugo and others) will be rewarded for the best of your intentions and deeds with Guidance to the Straight Way that leads to Paradise.

Peace upon you and all "Seekers of Grace",
Mustafa

Assalamu Alaikum

My husband MustafaMc also wanted to mention Eric H who he has a great deal of respect for. In the spirit of praying for guidance to the straightway and the forgiveness of our sins that we may attain paradise.

[Grace Seeker]

Gene, you are welcome - I meant what I said, but still there remains the fundamental differences in our faith that is a "Berlin Wall" between our hearts.

My recent return was in response to your invitation in this thread. I had responded with an expose on a note to you, "Well, I agree that he (Paul) claimed to have had a personal encounter with Jesus and he probably did interact with "someone" ;-) on a supernatural level." I replied to your response line-by-line and I had other in-depth exchanges over the past 2 weeks with other Christians on other threads. All of these posts are now lost in cyber-space that I wish to replace with this post.

Throughout my participation on LI/IB, I have shared what I believe is the Truth to the very utmost of my ability, but I fully realize that guidance comes only from Allah. I believe that I have discharged my responsibility to share my understanding of the Message of Islam on IB. May Allah forgive me for my shortcomings in these efforts.

In closing, I want to share a few ayat from the Qur'an that come to my mind:

5:48 To you, O Muhammad, We have revealed this Book with the truth. It confirms whatever has remained intact in the scriptures which came before it and also to safeguard it. Therefore, judge between people according to Allah's revelations and do not yield to their vain desires diverging from the truth which has come to you. We have ordained a law and a Way of life for each of you. If Allah wanted He could have made all of you a single nation. But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you; therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to Allah; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you dispute.

2:137-139 So, if they accept Islam like you, they shall be rightly guided; if they reject it, they will surely fall into dissension; Allah will be your sufficient defender against them, and He hears and knows everything. Baptism is from Allah; and who is better than Allah in baptizing? Him do we worship. Say, O Muhammad: "Would you dispute with us concerning Allah, who is our Lord and your Lord as well? We shall be accountable to Him for our deeds and you for yours; to Him alone we are devoted.

39:11-15 Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah and serve none but Him and I am commanded to be the first of those who submit to Allah in Islam." Say: "Surely, I am afraid if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty Day." Say: "Allah Alone I worship, and Him Alone I serve. As for yourselves, I have conveyed to you the Truth and if you do not believe, then worship what you want besides Him." Say: "The real losers are those who will lose their souls as well their families on the Day of Resurrection. Ah! That will indeed be an open Loss."

I hope that you will take the time to read, "The Sealed Nectar: Biography of the Noble Prophet" and remember my visit to you when you do. I wish that you and other Christian IB members whom I have interacted with (including Glo, Sojourner, Grenville, Fedos, Hugo and others) will be rewarded for the best of your intentions and deeds with Guidance to the Straight Way that leads to Paradise.

Peace upon you and all "Seekers of Grace",
Mustafa

Mustafa, my friend, thank-you so much for returning to participate in back-and-forth conversations here. I too recognize that there are wide differences in matters of faith between us, but I don't sense that they are bigger than one's heart. I had wanted to read the book you gave me, both out of interest in the subject matter and because of the respect I had for the one who gave it to me. Then my heart was injured and every time I looked at the book I only experienced pain. I could not bring myself to read it. Indeed, I often thought of returning it to you as it seemed the friendship which I understood to be the basis for the gift appeared broken. As such I felt I had no right to keep it and it hurt too much to read it, I should return it to you so that it might have a better end than collecting dust on my bookshelves. But now these last few weeks have healed my wounded heart and given me a renew appreciation for the things you have shared both now and in the past. I doubt we will ever see eye-to-eye with respect to our understanding of the role of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or Jesus of Nazareth, but I do now intend to read the book again. And for that I trust we are both happy. Please, don't fill yourself with unwarranted expectations that it will transform me into a Muslim -- my faith is ever more solid in Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior -- but know that even I hope by reading it I may come to a greater understanding of who Muhammad (p) is in the eyes of one who follows Islam and his role as a servant of Allah.

Thanks again for all returning to this forum however briefly, your kindness, the book, and most of all your personal friendship.

May peace be upon you and all who follow Guidance.
Gene