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piers
06-13-2009, 02:05 PM
does the importance of the hadiths differ between different sects in islam?
do you trust all hadiths?
is it true imams can write new hadiths?
are hadiths used to interpret the koran?
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'Abd-al Latif
06-13-2009, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
does the importance of the hadiths differ between different sects in islam?
Everyone accepts the Authority of the Prophet. Whoever does not believe in Prophet Muhammad is not a Muslim.

do you trust all hadiths?
Yes, as this is a part of the promise of God to protect and preserve His religion.

is it true imams can write new hadiths?
No, because it is impermissible to lie upon the Prophet.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Telling lies about me is not like telling lies about anyone else. Whoever tells lies about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.” [Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1229].
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piers
06-14-2009, 09:37 PM
The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Telling lies about me is not like telling lies about anyone else. Whoever tells lies about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.” [Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1229].
doesnt mohammed give permission to lie?
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جوري
06-14-2009, 10:02 PM
85% of Muslims are sunni

Currently an estimated 85% of Muslims are Sunni, 13% Shī‘ī, and 2% members of other groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi'a-Sunni_relations

Muslims make up about 1.86 billion of the world population and of those 85% are sunni, the only path recognized in Islam, we don't recognize factions, thus the question of hadiths is something you'd have to ask of them not us!
and that should also take care of your queries about the vagueness of the Quran, given that only 20% of Muslims are middle easterners and speak Arabic .. must make plenty of sense to the other very substantial 80%

all the best
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جوري
06-14-2009, 10:04 PM
here is the ruling on lies in Islam

Details

Name of Questioner
Ahmed - United Arab Emirates

Title
Lying Is Not a Trait of the Muslim

Question
Respected scholars of Islam, as-Salamu `alaykum. I would like to know the Shari`ah-based ruling on telling lies. Jazakum Allah Khayran.

Date
04/Apr/2004

Name of Counsellor
Yusuf Al-Qaradawi

Topic
Morals & Values

Answer

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear brother in Islam, it gives us pleasure to receive your question and to see the Muslim youth are interested in knowing the teachings of Islam, which Allah has chosen for His servants as a way of life. According to the Qur’an, a true Muslim should refer to scholars to get himself well-acquainted with the sound image of Islam.

Truthfulness, trustworthiness, faithfulness, and honesty are Islamic traits that every Muslim should be distinguished with. Telling lies, dishonesty, and all evil and bad traits are not from Islam and Muslims, therefore, are not characterized by such traits.

The eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, states:

"Telling lies is a bad conduct. It is not proper for righteous people and true believers; rather, it is a sign of hypocrisy, as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: 'The hypocrite has three characteristics: he tells lies, breaks his promise and breaches the trust.' (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Also, Allah Almighty says, 'Only they invent falsehood who believe not Allah's revelations, and (only) they are the liars.' (An-Nahl: 105)

Telling lies is not part of the human nature. It is completely rejected in Islam, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) warned Muslims against such evil trait, saying: 'Stick to truthfulness, for it leads one to righteousness, and the latter leads to Paradise. Thus, when one sticks to truthfulness and shows keenness in it, Allah considers him as an absolutely truthful man. And avoid telling lies, for it leads to excessiveness, and this leads to Hell-Fire. Thus, when one persists in telling lies, Allah considers him as a liar.'

Therefore, truthfulness is a conduct that can be acquired by keenness and persistence in telling the truth - even if it requires a lot of effort. A Muslim should strive to accomplish such a noble characteristic so that he can set a good example to the coming generations.

There are levels of lying, i.e., the more harm lying causes, the more urgently it is rejected and the severer punishment for it will be. Thus, some lies are considered minor sins, while others are major ones."

You can also read:

Lying Jokingly

Effect of Lying on Fasting

If you are still in need of more information, don't hesitate to contact us. Do keep in touch. May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543896


however, I'd advise you to google the 'stealth crusade' to see the christian view on lying though, it is quite interesting, the tactics, the misinformation and the lies!

all the best
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Follower
06-17-2009, 10:43 PM
piers are you confusing lying with breaking oaths?

066.002
YUSUFALI: Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths: and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
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Follower
06-17-2009, 10:46 PM
no here I found something about lying, but it is in war.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

The "little white lie"?:

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
Reply

جوري
06-17-2009, 10:48 PM
AT-TAHRIM (PROHIBITION)
THE SIXTY-SIXTH SURAH
Total Verses: 12
MEDINA PERIOD
Introduction

REVEALED in the second half of the Medina period - probably in 7 H. - this surahhas been occasionally designated as "The Surahof the Prophet" (Zamakhshari) inasmuch as the first half of it deals with certain aspects of his personal and family life.

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:

(1) O PROPHET! Why dost thou, out of a desire to please [one or another of] thy wives, impose [on thyself] a prohibition of something that God has made lawful to thee? 1 But God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace:
(2) God has already enjoined upon you [O believers] the breaking and expiation of [such of] your oaths [as may run counter to what is right and just]: 2 for, God is your Lord Supreme, and He alone is all-knowing, truly wise.
(3) And lo! 3 [It so happened that] the Prophet told something in confidence to one of his wives; and when she thereupon divulged it, and God made this known to him, he acquainted [others] with some of it and passed over some of it. 4 And as soon as he let her know it, she asked, "Who has told thee this?" 5 - [to which] he replied, "The All-Knowing, the All-Aware has told me."
(4) [Say, O Prophet: 6] "Would that you two turn unto God in repentance, for the hearts of both of you have swerved [from what is right]! 7 And if you uphold each other against him [who is God's message-bearer, know that] God Himself is his Protector, and [that,] therefore, 8 Gabriel, and all the righteous among the believers and all the [other] angels will come to his aid."
(5) [O wives of the Prophet!] Were he to divorce [any of] you, God might well give him in your stead spouses better than you - women who surrender themselves unto God, who truly believe, devoutly obey His will, turn [unto Him] in repentance [whenever they have sinned] worship [Him alone] and go on and on [seeking His goodly acceptance] 9 - be they women previously married or virggins. 10
(6) O YOU who have attained to faith! Ward off from yourselves and those who are close to you 11 that fire [of the hereafter] whose fuel is human beings and stones: 12 [lording] over it are angelic powers awesome [and] severe, 13 who do not disobey God in whatever He has commanded them, but [always] do what they are bidden to do. 14
(7) [Hence,] O you who are bent on denying the truth, make no [empty] excuses today: 15 [in the life to come] you shall be but recompensed for what you were doing [in this world].
(8) O you who have attained to faith! Turn unto God in sincere repentance: 16 it may well be .that your Sustainer will efface from you your bad deeds, and will admit you into gardens through which running waters flow, on a Day on which God will not shame the Prophet and those who share his faith: 17 their light will spread rapidly before them, and on their right; 18 [and] they will pray: "O our Sustainer! Cause this our light to shine for us forever, 19 and forgive us our sins: for, verily, Thou hast the power to will anything!"
(9) O PROPHET! Strive hard against the deniers of the truth and the hypocrites, and be adamant with them. 20 And [if they do not repent,] their goal shall be hell - and how vile a journey’s end!
(10) For those who are bent on denying the truth God has propounded a parable in [the stories of] Noah's wife and Lot's wife: they were wedded to two of Our righteous servants, and each one betrayed her husband; 21 and neither of the two [husbands] will be of any avail to these two women when they are told [on Judgment Day], "Enter the fire with all those [other sinners] who enter it!" 22
(11) And for those who have attained to faith God has propounded a parable in [the story of] Pharaoh's wife 23 as she prayed "O my Sustainer! Build Thou for me a mansion in the paradise [that is] with Thee, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me, from all evildoing folk!
(12) And [We have propounded yet another parable of God-consciousness in the story of] Mary, the daughter of Imran, 24 who guarded her chastity, whereupon We breathed of Our spirit into that [which was in her womb], 25 and who accepted the truth of her Sustainer’s words - and [thus,] of His revelations 26 - and was one of the truly devout.

1 There are several essentially conflicting - and, therefore, in their aggregate, not very trustworthy - reports as to the exact reason or reasons why, at some time during the second half of the Medina period, the Prophet declared on oath that for one month he would have no intercourse with any of his wives. Still, while the exact reason cannot be established with certainty, it is sufficiently clear from the above-mentioned ahadiththat this emotional, temporary renunciation of marital life was caused by a display of mutual jealousy among some of the Prophet's wives. In any case, the purport of the above Qur'anic allusion to this incident is not biographical but, rather, intended to bring out a moral lesson applicable to all human situations: namely, the inadmissibility of regarding as forbidden (haram) anything that God has made lawful (halal), even if such an attitude happens to be motivated by the desire to please another person or other persons. Apart from this, it serves to illustrate the fact - repeatedly stressed in the Qur'an - that the Prophet was but a human being, and therefore subject to human emotions and even liable to commit an occasional mistake (which in his case, however, was invariably pointed out to him, and thus rectified, through divine revelation).
2 See 2:224 and the corresponding note 212, which shows that in certain circumstances an oath should be broken and then atoned for: hence the above phrase, "God has enjoined upon you the breaking and expiation" (with the term tahillahcomprising both these concepts).
3 See surah2, note 21.
4 Lit., "he turned aside from [or "avoided"] some of it". There is no reliable Tradition as to the subject of that confidential information. Some of the early commentators, however, connect it with the Prophet's veiled prediction that Abu Bakr and Umar ibn al-Khattab would succeed him as leaders of the Muslim community; the recipient of the information is said to have been Hafsah, the daughter of Umar, and the one to whom she disclosed it, A'ishah, the daughter of Abu Bakr (Baghawi, on the, authority of Ibn Abbas and Al-Kalbi; also Zamakhshari). If this interpretation is correct, it would explain why the Prophet "acquainted [others] with some of it and passed over some of it": for, once his confidential prediction had been divulged, he saw no point in withholding it any longer from the community; nevertheless, he alluded to it in deliberately vague terms- possibly in order not to give to the succession of Abu Bakr and Umar the appearance of all "apostolic sanction" but to leave it, rather to a free decision of the community in pursuance of the Qur'anic principle amruhum shura baynahum (see 42:38).
5 I.e., that she had broken the Prophet's confidence.
6 Although in the sequence the Prophet is referred to in the third person, it is obvious that it is he who is commanded through revelation to speak thus to his wives Hafsah and A'ishah (see note 4); hence my above interpolation.
7 Referring to Hafsah, who betrayed the Prophet's confidence, and to A'ishah, who by listening contributed to this betrayal (see note 4 above).
8 Lit., "after that", i.e., in consequence of the fact that God Himself protects him.
9 For this rendering of the expression sa'ihat, see note 147 on 9:112, where the same expression occurs in the masculine gender relating to both men and women.
10 I.e., like the actual wives of the Prophet, one of whom ("A'ishah) was a virgin when she married him, one (Zaynab bint Jahsh) had been divorced, while the others were widows. This allusion, together with the fact that the Prophet did not divorce any of his wives, as well as the purely hypothetical formulation of this passage, shows that it is meant to be an indirect admonition to the Prophet's wives, who, despite their occasional shortcomings - unavoidable in human beings - did possess the virtues referred to above. On a wider plane, it seems to be an admonition to all believers, men and women alike: and this explains the subsequent change in the discourse.
11 Lit., "your families" or "your people"; however, the term ahldenotes also people who share one's race, religion, occupation, etc., as well as "dependants" in the most comprehensive sense of this word (Jawhari, Raghib; also Mughni).
12 See surah 2, note 16.
13 See 74:27 ff. and the corresponding notes, particularly notes 15 and 16, in which I have tried to explain the allegorical meaning of that passage.
14 I.e., these angelic powers are subject to the God-willed law of cause and effect which dominates the realm of the spirit no less than the world of matter.
15 I.e., "do not try to rationalize your deliberate denial of the truth" - the element of conscious intent being immplied in the past-tense phrase alladhina kafaru (see note 6 on 2:6).
16 Sc., "since no human being, however imbued with faith, can ever remain entirely free from faults and temptations".
17 The implication is that He will not only "not shame" the Prophet and his followers but will, on the contrary, exalt them: an idiomatic turn of phrase similar to sayings like "I shall let you know something that will not be to your detriment" - i.e., "something that will benefit you".
18 Cf. 57:12 and the corresponding note 12.
19 Lit., "Complete for us our light", i.e., by making it permanent.
20 See note 101 on 9:73, which is identical with the above verse.
21 Lit., "and both betrayed them", i.e., their respective husbands. The story of Lot's wife and her spiritual betrayal of her husband is mentioned in the Qur'an in several places; see, in particular, note 66 on 7:83 and note 113 on 11:81. As regards Noah's wife, the above is the only explicit reference to her having betrayed her husband; it would seem, however, that the qualification of "those on whom [God's] sentence has already been passed" in 11:40 applies to her no less than to her son (whose story appears in 11:42-47).
22 The "parable" (mathal) of these two women implies, firstly, that even the most intimate relationship with a truly righteous person - even though he be a prophet - cannot save an unrepentant sinner from the consequences of his sin; and, secondly, that a true believer must cut himself off from any association with "those who are bent on denying the truth" even if they happen to be those nearest and dearest to him (cf. 11:46).
23 Cf. 28:8-9.
24 I.e., a descendant of the House of 'lmran (cf. the last third of note 22 on 3:33).
25 I.e., into the as yet unborn child (Razi, thus explaining the pronoun in fihi).For an explanation of the much-misunderstood allegorical phrase, "We breathed of Our spirit into it", see note 87 on 21:91.
26 For the meaning of God's "words" (kalimat), see note 28 on 3:39.
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جوري
06-17-2009, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
no here I found something about lying, but it is in war.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

The "little white lie"?:

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

I found something in Christianity about lying in every day life-- so much more delicious than deception during war time!

The Stealth Crusade

Inside one Southern university, Christian missionaries are being trained to go undercover in the Muslim world and win converts for Jesus. Their stated goal: to wipe out Islam.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...tealth-crusade


At 8 o'clock on a warm Monday morning in January, 20 students file into Rick Love's classroom at Columbia International University in South Carolina. Eyes glassy from writing papers all weekend, they clutch Styrofoam cups of Folgers as they settle into their seats. In front, an overhead projector hums; it is hooked up to the instructor's laptop, ready for a morning full of PowerPoint presentations. Outside, CIU's piney campus is quiet. Most of the student body has not yet returned from Christmas break. But these students, all evangelical Christians, have arrived two weeks early for an intensive course on how to win converts in Islamic countries. They're learning from the master: Love is the international director of Frontiers, the largest Christian group in the world that focuses exclusively on proselytizing to Muslims. With 800 missionaries in 50 countries, Frontiers' reach extends from the South Pacific to North Africa, with every major Islamic region in between.

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Love is 49, a black-leather-jacket-wearing whirlwind of a man with a salt-and-pepper beard and a quick sense of humor. He's a chronic multitasker, routinely praying aloud while drinking coffee and simultaneously reviewing his lecture notes. Little known outside the missionary world, he's an icon within it-an evangelistic entrepreneur who wins admirers with what he calls his "middle linebacker" personality. His seminars are usually closed to the media and the public.
This morning's lesson is about going undercover. Many of Love's students are missionaries themselves, temporarily home from assignments in places ranging from Kazakhstan to Kenya. They know firsthand that evangelism is illegal in many Islamic nations, and they face expulsion if their true intentions become known. Love's lesson for today is how to mask one's identity while secretly working to convert Muslims. Evangelists, he explains, should always have a ready, nonreligious explanation for their presence in hostile areas.
Love fixes his gaze on a studious, spiky-haired missionary dressed in Patagonia clothing. "If people ask you, 'Why are you here?'" he asks, "what do you say?" The young man, on leave from Southeast Asia, squirms in his chair. His jaw opens but nothing comes out. "Bingo!" Love says with a smile. "You bite your fingernails, and people go, 'Of course he's not hiding anything.'" Love notes that before he went to western Indonesia to proselytize among Sundanese Muslims, he went back to school and earned his credentials to become an English instructor. That way, he says, he had an excuse to be in the country. "I could look someone in the eye and say, 'I am an English teacher,'" he explains. "'I have a degree and I'm here to teach.'"
That, he says, is the model for winning converts in the Islamic world: Find another pretext to be in the country. Build friendships with the locals. Once you've developed trust, then it's time to try to gain new believers. But don't reveal your true purpose too early. "How did Jesus explain why he was there?" Love asks the class. "Indirectly," volunteers a veteran missionary. "He'd say, 'Why do you think I'm here?'"
"Did Jesus ever lie?" In unison, the class says, "No."
"But did Jesus raise his hand and say, 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?'" Again, 20 voices call out, "No!"
There are lots of ways to camouflage yourself, Love tells the students. In Indonesia, evangelists ran a quilt-making business to provide cover for Western missionaries, allowing them to employ-and proselytize-scores of Muslims.
The students nod thoughtfully; they agree that Muslims must be reached by whatever means possible. Their zeal is helping to fuel the biggest evangelical foray into the Muslim world since missionary pioneer Samuel Zwemer declared Islam a "dying religion" in 1916 and predicted that "when the crescent wanes, the Cross will prove dominant." Over the past decade, evangelical leaders say, the number of missionaries trying to convert Muslims has jumped fourfold, from several hundred in the early 1990s to more than 3,000 today. Many are sent by the Southern Baptist Convention, with the rest coming from a network of church-supported groups with names like Christar and Arab World Ministries.
Missionaries work in remote villages in Afghanistan and Pakistan; former Soviet republics like Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan; Middle Eastern hot spots like Iraq, Syria, and Yemen; and African countries like Somalia and Algeria.
"We see Islam as the final frontier," says David Cashin, a professor of Intercultural Studies at CIU who used to don Muslim clothing and pursue converts in the tea shops of Kaliakoir, Bangladesh. Like many of his fellow evangelicals, Cashin regards the Islamic world as a hinterland that must be penetrated before the Messiah can return. "History is coming to an end," he says. "If you believe Christ is coming back, why has he delayed 2,000 years? We haven't finished the task he set out to do." That task, he says, is to win converts among all the world's ethnic groups.
The growing movement to hunt souls in Muslim lands-by missionaries who often pass as aid workers, teachers, or business owners-has raised hackles outside the evangelical world. Missionaries themselves acknowledge that their work endangers the lives of converts, and critics charge that it disrupts the delivery of humanitarian aid and fuels resentment of Westerners during one of the most dangerous moments in recent history. But to those at the heart of the movement, including Rick Love's students, any damage done by their work is outweighed by the importance of their mission: to wipe out Islam. "I believe it's a false religion, and I'd like to see it be gone," says Kim McHugh, a 36-year-old CIU student who is training to convert Iranian refugees in Turkey. Her husband Brent agrees. "If they don't have a chance to experience Jesus," he says, "they're going to hell."

For most Americans, the first glimpse into Muslim-world evangelism came last November, when the Taliban created heroes out of two fresh-faced missionaries named Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer. Incarcerated for three months on charges of spreading Christianity, the women made headlines after U.S. Special Forces helicopters whisked them away from a prison outside Ghazni, Afghanistan. "They had a calling to serve the poorest of the poor," President Bush said at a White House ceremony shortly after the Hollywood-style rescue. "Their faith was a source of hope that kept them from being discouraged." But Curry and Mercer were doing more than relief work: Once home, they admitted to violating Afghan law by showing "part of a Jesus film" and giving a Christian storybook to a Muslim family. Another missionary from their organization, John Weaver, also garnered wide-spread media attention for his refusal to leave Afghanistan despite the growing anti-American tensions.
Like many missionaries in Islamic countries, Weaver trained at CIU, one of three schools in the United States with a degree program specifically devoted to converting Muslims. A campus of boxy brick buildings located at the end of a wooded boulevard in Columbia, South Carolina, CIU has the look of a second-tier state college. But rather than publicizing frat parties and rock concerts, the colorful posters on its walls and bulletin boards announce prayer services and opportunities for overseas missions. In the student center, next to a wide-screen TV, a book provides Christian reviews of Hollywood movies. (Harry Potter? Amistad? Billy Elliot? All rated "very offensive.") Faculty and some 1,000 students eat together in the cafeteria, praying over smothered chicken and talking spiritedly about lessons from the New Testament.
During this two-week "winterim" session, it's hard to find anyone of traditional college age. Many of the students are from the front lines of missionary work, men and women who have spent years in Muslim countries. Christian Dedrick is squeezing in some additional schooling before returning to the field next year. A lanky 33-year-old with thick blond sideburns, a pageboy haircut, and oval, horn-rimmed glasses, he has an easygoing style and an enthusiasm for challenging conversation. Pass him on the street, and the first impression would be tweedy intellectual.
For two years, Dedrick worked in a small port city in Kazakhstan, teaching English and living with a local family, sleeping on a cotton bedroll in a sparsely furnished room he shared with his host's two sons. Although the family were devout Muslims-the father considered it a sin to leave the faith-Dedrick spent much of his time trying to persuade them to convert to Christianity. He read them the Bible and showed them a Kazakh translation of the "Jesus film," a Campus Crusade for Christ movie that graphically depicts the crucifixion of a blue-eyed Jesus. "We wrestled over that a few times," he remembers. "I'd say, 'I have to tell you what changed my life. You don't have to accept it, but I have to tell it.'" While the family didn't convert, neither did it evict the American, whose $50 in rent represented a sizable chunk of the monthly household income.
Like the other missionaries who have come to CIU, Dedrick is constantly reevaluating his evangelical technique. He rejects his old attitude as "pretty paternalistic," saying he'll ask more questions before making judgments about what he sees when he returns to Central Asia next year. But he still believes Islam is the work of the devil. "People cheer at baseball games," Dedrick says. "I cheer at worship services. And when I go to a culture 10,000 miles away and don't see that righteousness, that holiness, reflected in that culture, I get sad. Satan has deceived them away from a relationship with their creator God."
For all their work, Dedrick and his fellow missionaries win few new believers. That doesn't seem to faze them. "My goal is not to convert a Muslim," says Al Dobra, a 45-year-old with a gravelly voice and military haircut who befriends Muslim businessmen in Nairobi, Kenya, and then tries to convince them of Islam's fallacies. "My goal is to plant a tiny seed that will fester and gnaw and grow, so that eventually they will begin to question their religion. My prayer is that they will become restless sleepers and troubled by what they hear. That's a horrible thing to wish on someone."

That absolute certainty that Christianity is the only truth-and that other religions are satanically inspired-runs throughout the two weeks of Rick Love's course. One morning Tom Seckler, a dark-haired missionary with a bland face and thick black mustache, tacks the Cambodian flag to the classroom bulletin board and lays a map of the country on the overhead projector. Seckler's mission agency, World Team, has targeted the Western Cham, an impoverished Muslim minority group in Cambodia that was massacred by the thousands by the Khmer Rouge in the 1970s. Despite World Team's efforts, Seckler estimates there are only about 25 Christian converts, some of whom meet Tuesday nights in Phnom Penh. "Please pray for the Cham people," he asks his classmates. "There's a degree of self-righteousness among the Cham. They think they're okay. We don't see a big spiritual hunger among them."
The class begins to worship, eyes closed, each person offering a spontaneous request. "Lord, we come into your presence and we ask that you would give us a fresh sense of your burden and your love for Muslim people, especially the Cham," says Love. He falls silent, and then Brent McHugh takes over: "I pray, Lord, that the Cham people do hunger, and realize what they're missing in Christ."
The anti-Islam prayers reflect CIU's official attitude toward what it considers a competitor religion. Prominent on the university's Web site is an essay posted shortly after September 11. "To claim that 'Islam' means 'peace' is just one more attempt to mislead the public," it reads. "Muslim leaders have spoken of their goal to spread Islam in the West until Islam becomes a dominant, global power." The essay was written by Warren Larson, who directs the university's Muslim Studies program and served as a mentor to John Weaver, the Afghanistan missionary. A former missionary himself, Larson fears that Christianity might be losing the race for world domination. "Islam is biologically taking over the world," he says. "They're having babies faster than we are."
Before coming to CIU, Larson worked for 23 years in Dera Ghazi Khan, Pakistan, trying to convert Muslims to Christianity. He and his wife hosted prayer meetings, Bible studies, and informal gatherings where Muslims came for tea and Coke. Many of their neighbors showed up-some to learn about their religion, but most for more practical reasons. "People had the idea that foreigners have money," Larson says. "A lot of them would come because you might be able to help them get to America. Or they would come asking for help: 'My father, he's sick. Can you write a letter of introduction to the hospital?' Some of them would be willing to talk about Christianity. Most would not."
Larson was indeed rich by local standards. Not only did he hire Muslims for domestic help, but he also owned household luxuries like a refrigerator. And while the Larsons often engaged in community service-visiting widows, taking people to the doctor-they were still seen by some neighbors as the embodiment of the West. One morning, 200 armed Muslims stormed Larson's home, throwing bricks at his ministry's two Land Rovers, kicking down his door, and setting fire to religious literature. After that, Larson says, "whenever we would hear something that sounded like a riot, it would scare us."
The attack on Larson's home came in the midst of fierce anti-U.S. sentiment in the Muslim world, which culminated in the takeover of the American embassy in Iran in 1979. Now, in the wake of September 11, some critics say evangelists are again fueling distrust and resentment toward Westerners. Last October, Islamic militants opened fire on a church built by missionaries in Pakistan, killing 16 Christians, and Muslim rebels threatened to execute two missionaries kidnapped in the Philippines.
"The issue is the disproportional power relationship," says Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington, D.C.-based organization that works to promote a positive image of Muslims. "They use their resources to coerce people to do what they want them to do." Hooper remembers reviewing a proposal by a Christian agency to send veterinarians to help impoverished Fulani cattle herders in West Africa. But the plan had a caveat: "You don't get the veterinarian unless you take the missionary," he says. "When people are in desperate circumstances, they'll do things they otherwise wouldn't do."
Robert Macpherson, security director for the aid group care, remembers serving as a U.S. Marine in Somalia during the early 1990s, when some 200 organizations were working to stave off famine in the war-ravaged country. "It was dangerous, dangerous, dangerous," he recalls. Evangelicals only made matters worse, he says, by showing up at food-distribution sites and handing out Christian literature, giving the impression that food aid was contingent on conversion to Christianity. "The next thing we know, they got themselves in the middle of a riot," Macpherson recalls. Angered by the missionaries, Somalis climbed over one another to steal food and set trucks on fire. "They were desperate," he says. "They were dying. This was an emergency."

At CIU, missionaries-in-training learn to try to avoid such hostility by blending into the cultures they visit. In class one morning, Rick Love opens his Bible to the book of Acts, in which the apostle Paul takes on a disciple named Timothy. Before the two men go out to proselytize among the Jews, Paul takes Timothy to have his foreskin cut. "He says, 'Yo, Tim, you wanna join my team? You gotta get circumcised,'" Love tells his students. "How's that for high standards? Wow!"
Love is hardly suggesting that his male students undergo the knife. He's making a bigger point: To win converts in a foreign culture, you must take on the behaviors of that culture, even adopting the rituals of another religion. The practice is called "contextualization," and it's one of the hottest topics among missionaries. The idea is to get away from the old-fashioned practice of importing American-style Christianity, complete with wooden pews and Western hymns. Instead, missionaries today are more likely to take on Muslim names, dress in veils and other local clothing, prostrate themselves during prayer, and even fast during Ramadan. "We must become Muslims to reach Muslims," says Cashin, the CIU professor.
If a first-century evangelist can undergo circumcision to win converts, how far can a 21st-century missionary go? At lunch, Christian Dedrick takes a spoonful of his wife's homemade broccoli soup and ponders the question aloud. "Should we call ourselves Muslims?" he asks. "The old meaning of the word is 'one who submits.' In Jordan, the missionaries had 'Jesus mosques.' They called themselves 'Muslims of the Messiah.' We wrestled with that. We wanted to call God 'Allah' so we could be on that relational level with Muslims."
Dedrick drew the line at appearing too Muslim-but others haven't. "One team in the Middle East has a policy of not allowing missionaries to identify themselves as Christians," reports the journal Evangelical Missions Quarterly. Another team "called themselves Jesus-ists" and presented themselves as "one of many Sufi or dervish mystical orders." The journal Missiology says that missionaries urge Palestinian students to adopt Christian beliefs-but to still call themselves Muslim.
When pressed, evangelicals acknowledge that they often blur the distinctions between the two religions and fail to disclose their intentions. "The line between guile and withholding information is very, very thin," says one missionary at CIU who asked not to be identified for security reasons. He admits that he rarely tells his Muslim neighbors why he's living among them-demurely calling himself a "language student"-and that he's been forced to terminate friendships with those who ask too many questions. "To have integrity in that is a challenge," he says.
Many Islamic and Christian leaders alike believe that evangelical groups often fail the integrity challenge. "Once you have this kind of sneaky way, the respect for the holy is gone," says Sayyid Syeed, secretary general of the Islamic Society of North America. Sacred rituals, such as prostration and the Ramadan fast, are used to lure people away from their own religion. "The missionary," says Syeed, "is seen as someone who is stabbing you in the back."
For Donna Derr, the honesty issue is not an abstract one. She's the associate director of international emergency response for Church World Service, which provides aid in more than 80 countries while barring outright proselytizing. From her perspective, Christian evangelizing-particularly by missionaries who masquerade as humanitarian workers-makes it harder for legitimate aid organizations to relieve poverty, malnutrition, and disease. "Groups that have the need to proselytize color us all with the same brush," says Derr. As a result, she says, it's harder to win the trust of those communities her group is trying to serve. She recalls one Southeast Asian nation where rural families suffer from debilitating diseases. "It was difficult to get the local governments to allow us to come in," Derr says, "because they had somebody in the past who tried to start a Christian church. They'd say, 'Oh, your name is Church World Service. You're going to do the same thing.'" In other cases, she adds, evangelicals provoked so much resentment "that the other groups doing aid had to pull out, simply because it was too dangerous."
Derr and others note that there is another model for missionary work, one followed by many mainline Christians: serving those in need without actively recruiting new believers. For example, Catholic Relief Services delivers food and blankets to Afghanistan, builds drinking-water systems in Morocco, and promotes small-business development among Egyptian women-all without trying to recruit Muslims to Catholicism. "We reflect our beliefs in our actions, in our relations, in our respect for people," says Ken Hackett, the agency's director. "We don't ask even our own staff to convert. If you're a good Muslim, you're a good Muslim."
Rick Love admits that some evangelical groups "are unwise in how they share their faith." But even if it takes some stretching of the truth, he adds, it would be wrong to ignore the call to share the Word. "That is what the Bible teaches," he says, "so I could never be part of an organization that focuses on deed only." As Love sees it, the lack of religious freedom in many Islamic countries forces missionaries to conceal their intentions. "I want the freedom to share my faith with you and not be persecuted," he says, "and I want you to have the same with me. It should be a matter of persuasion, and not political power."

On the last day of the "winterim" session, things turn decidedly somber in Love's classroom. It's the lesson in which the instructor reminds his students that their work can have dire-even deadly-consequences for the people they try to convert. He refers to Curry and Mercer, the two Americans who were airlifted from a Taliban prison two months earlier. "What happened with Dayna and Heather is not typical," he says. "We do have people imprisoned, but usually you're asked to leave. We get a ticket out of the country-but the new believers, what do they face? Loss of job, children taken away, imprisonment, torture, even martyrdom."
Of all the criticisms launched at Christian evangelists, this is the one that's least disputed: Missionary work often puts local believers in serious danger. "It is common for mission agencies to be expelled from countries awash with persecution," reports an internal study by the Southern Baptist Convention based on 300 interviews in 45 countries. "Virtually overnight, local believers are left destitute and exposed." The study cites Indonesia, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and Pakistan as particularly repressive. In one East African community, it reports, converts were "systematically hunted down and martyred by adherents to Islam. Other believers are displaced; they live in refugee camps; they reside in adjacent countries, or in the West." The common thread among the victims? "All those martyred had a relationship to expatriate Christians that contributed to their deaths." In another country unnamed in the report, "significant numbers of Muslim-background believers were arrested and tortured due to their relationship to the expatriate missionary."
Tahir Lavi converted to Christianity during secret midnight Bible-study sessions at a madrassah in Kashmir where he was studying the Koran. His parents disowned him, and he was forced to flee after a group of men threatened to kill him. For the past 13 years, he has lived in exile in a small house at the end of a narrow lane in a north Delhi slum. But despite the risks, he continues to preach to other Muslims, exhorting them in the words of Jesus: "Take up your cross and follow me."
Indeed, evangelical leaders encourage missionaries to continue proselytizing, even though converts might be tortured or killed. "Missionaries need maturity and spiritual toughness so that when the fruits of their witness are required to walk through the fire, the missionary does not automatically attempt to rescue them," the Southern Baptist study urges. "Persecution is Biblically and historically normative for the emerging church; it cannot be avoided or eliminated.... To avoid persecution is to hamper the growth of the kingdom of God."
In the end, say evangelicals, the earthly suffering of Christians pales before the eternal hell to which Muslims are sentenced. "It's hard for me to say, 'I have a passport out of here if things get out of hand, but you have to stay here and take it,'" says Raymond Weiss, a former missionary in Bahrain. "But that's what Jesus says: Sometimes it will be fathers and mothers against each other for his sake. If Jesus is cosmically, ultimately true, then whatever cost in this world is nothing."
With that shared assumption, Rick Love's students are returning to the field, to share the New Testament in the places they're least wanted. The class at CIU has inspired them to renew their efforts to save Muslims from what they consider a false religion. "Some Christians have said to us, 'They have their own faith; why do you need to reach them?'" says Brent McHugh, the evangelist bound for Turkey. "But if you lean your ladder against the wrong wall and you spend your life climbing up that ladder, when you get to the top, you'll find there's nothing there."
Reply

Follower
06-17-2009, 11:02 PM
Hi Gossamer how have you been?

Of course some Christians sometimes lie, they are human.

The question is: is lying condoned in the Holy Bible?
Reply

جوري
06-17-2009, 11:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Hi Gossamer how have you been?

Of course some Christians sometimes lie, they are human.

The question is: is lying condoned in the Holy Bible?

apparently it is condoned by jesus himself-- as you should read in the article..

and if you read the entire sura you'd see that lying is not condoned but taking an illegal oath that is not ordained by God is... I suspect the fact that you have a reading and comprehension impediment has something to do with your inability to comprehend basic thing like that especially when I have already posted the entire sura -- or why the concept of a praying, dying man/god doesn't sit well with others either as it is spawned by the same 'mind'

all the best
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doorster
06-17-2009, 11:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
no here I found something about lying, but it is in war.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

The "little white lie"?:
you mean an army should give notice to the enemy about its strength and strategy?

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
next time your obese mama (or ugly fat wife if old enough to be married) asks you whether her posterior looks fat tell her yes its like rear end of a rhino
Reply

جوري
06-17-2009, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
you mean an army should give notice to the enemy about its strength and strategy?

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
next time your obese mama (or ugly fat wife if old enough to be married) asks you whether her posterior looks fat tell her yes its like rear end of a rhino[/QUOTE]


give him the proper hadith or full sura and it is falls on blind eyes and deaf ears, how much are you willing to bet he'll resurface with the same manifesto two days from now on a different thread?.. I am not sure whom he is aiming this at? Muslims? or to simply stay with his misguided bunch in the dark ages while feeling awfully good about it?

what a waste of everyone's time..
sob7an Allah

apparently his nonsense isn't grounds for dismissal I was just told..

:w:
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piers
06-25-2009, 03:23 PM
apparently it is condoned by jesus himself--
whoever said this about lieing is talking a load of rubbish. any article that says jesus approved of lieing should be disregarded from being reliable. You get that kind of junk on that rubbish answering christianity website.
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convert
06-25-2009, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
The question is: is lying condoned in the Holy Bible?
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
whoever said this about lieing is talking a load of rubbish. any article that says jesus approved of lieing should be disregarded from being reliable.
Jesus (as) most assuredly never did claim such a thing, may he be free from any such accusations. However, "Saint" Paul the liar did.

Please read Romans. Specifically, chapter 3 in the first 10 verses.
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piers
06-25-2009, 04:00 PM
Jesus (as) most assuredly never did claim such a thing, may he be free from any such accusations. However, "Saint" Paul the liar did.

Please read Romans. Specifically, chapter 3 in the first 10 verses.
lol I cannot believe you are serious with that accusation. your interpretation skills are poor if you think that shows he is a liar. paul was talking about the accusation of god god being unrighteous, the manguage is using if statements so where it says if through my lie.. it is not an admittance to being a liar but an example to show the ridiculousness of the idea of doing evil so good may come. Do some study rather than just taking the usual muslim garbage the imams come up with about the christian faith.
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convert
06-25-2009, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
lol I cannot believe you are serious with that accusation. your interpretation skills are poor if you think that shows he is a liar. paul was talking about the accusation of god god being unrighteous, the manguage is using if statements so where it says if through my lie.. it is not an admittance to being a liar but an example to show the ridiculousness of the idea of doing evil so good may come. Do some study rather than just taking the usual muslim garbage the imams come up with about the christian faith.
My skills are poor? LOL You basically are interpreting exactly the opposite of what it says. Thats ok though, I know how you cafeteria christians operate... I was one.
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Zafran
06-25-2009, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
lol I cannot believe you are serious with that accusation. your interpretation skills are poor if you think that shows he is a liar. paul was talking about the accusation of god god being unrighteous, the manguage is using if statements so where it says if through my lie.. it is not an admittance to being a liar but an example to show the ridiculousness of the idea of doing evil so good may come. Do some study rather than just taking the usual muslim garbage the imams come up with about the christian faith.
The only garbage that started this whole thing was you christian pal Follower - he accused muslims of being liers - when we show you PROOF of christains (especially missionries) themselves saying lying is ok and justifying through the bible - you all of sudden have problems - hypocrite.

so READ the whole thread before talking garbage - your quick to call on others yet never see your own hypocricy. Maybe your pastors are feeding you too much garbage its gone into your head. There plenty of garbage chirstain pastors come up with - some even believe muslims are devils!!!!
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piers
06-25-2009, 05:06 PM
when we show you PROOF of christains
who said I associate myself with christians?

The actions of some random christians somewhere in the world has nothing to do with me.

My skills are poor? LOL You basically are interpreting exactly the opposite of what it says. Thats ok though, I know how you cafeteria christians operate... I was one.
actually I am not and also your claim to used to being a christian I find laughable. I mean you were such a good christian, that is why you have your way of life now as a muslim. I mean anyone who switches between religions I never take seriously anyway because if you are frivilous enough to change your views so much then your views are weak.
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convert
06-25-2009, 05:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers

actually I am not and also your claim to used to being a christian I find laughable. I mean you were such a good christian, that is why you have your way of life now as a muslim. I mean anyone who switches between religions I never take seriously anyway because if you are frivilous enough to change your views so much then your views are weak.
Ok, suit yourself, whatever. People can just read for themselves and come to their own conclusions as I'm not gonna get into a "nuh uh... uh huh... nuh uh" war with you.

It was through actually reading the Bible and commentary instead of just parroting what was said in sunday school or church and studying history that I left christianity. Ever wonder why all you ever hear when you ask question of pastors/ministers/etc is "well, it just is brother, have faith"?

I personally never take anyone seriously who doesn't question everything they've been spoonfed.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-25-2009, 05:12 PM
Exactly, he was a good christian which made him a good muslim. Why is that hard for you to digest?
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Zafran
06-25-2009, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
who said I associate myself with christians?

The actions of some random christians somewhere in the world has nothing to do with me.



actually I am not and also your claim to used to being a christian I find laughable. I mean you were such a good christian, that is why you have your way of life now as a muslim. I mean anyone who switches between religions I never take seriously anyway because if you are frivilous enough to change your views so much then your views are weak.
I find it hard to take you seriously - your actually sound like a child whos dropped some milk and is crying over it. Your views sound preety weak thats why you have to scream and denounce an interpretation that is against your own understanding.
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Caller الداعي
06-25-2009, 05:33 PM
i think this thread should be closed coz its jus going out of hand people who dont possess enough level of knowledge on islam debating !!!!
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جوري
06-25-2009, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
whoever said this about lieing is talking a load of rubbish. any article that says jesus approved of lieing should be disregarded from being reliable. You get that kind of junk on that rubbish answering christianity website.

actually the stealth crusade is a christian website, all you need do is click on the link.. and there is no such word as 'lieing' you have yet the way to go in the acquisition of knowledge field!

and lastly who the hell are you to pass judgment on the faith of another?-- how so very Jesus like! is that a part of the sin eating thing? you get to be a hypocrite left and right because jesus ate your sins in advance? Hilarious..


all the best
Reply

piers
06-25-2009, 09:08 PM
all the best
this amuses me, you accuse me of hypocracy and then wish me all the best? lol you dont wish all the best, more likely a fatwa.
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Tony
06-25-2009, 09:10 PM
yeah lets issue a fatwa on piers coz were muslims and thats what we do to ignorant ppl:rollseyes
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GreyKode
06-25-2009, 09:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
this amuses me, you accuse me of hypocracy and then wish me all the best? lol you dont wish all the best, more likely a fatwa.
A fatwa!!!! LOOOOOOOOOOOOl

what exactly do you think a fatwa is?
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glo
06-25-2009, 09:27 PM
Out of interest, who would be authorised to issue a fatwa?
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جوري
06-25-2009, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
this amuses me, you accuse me of hypocracy and then wish me all the best? lol you dont wish all the best, more likely a fatwa.

I am not accusing you, I am highlighting it-- accusing means I am leveling a charge against you to be cross examined.. highlight denotes, you've done all the work for me and stand naked before all for that I can only wish you the best indeed!
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جوري
06-25-2009, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Out of interest, who would be authorised to issue a fatwa?

I have seen you issue them on occasion on your own authority it seems :D

all the best
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Tony
06-25-2009, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Out of interest, who would be authorised to issue a fatwa?
not sure bur im sure theres one or two ppl glad its not sister Gossamer Skye:D
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Zafran
06-25-2009, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
this amuses me, you accuse me of hypocracy and then wish me all the best? lol you dont wish all the best, more likely a fatwa.
Lol yes we will issue a fatwa on you..............:rollseyes
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HopeFul
06-25-2009, 09:46 PM
I think a Fatwa is a hmm how to say,
like a rule perhaps?

Some rules are amde keeping in view how things were done in thepast by properly qualified scholars about the new issues, e,g

there were no aeroplanes at the time of he prophet SAW, so if someone asks a mufti( someone who issues fatwas) how should they go about rpaying in an aeroplane, what direction, sitting, standing etc, the way he tells them to do it is called a fatwa, it normally is like a rule because hes not allowed to say things from his own mind but keeping in view the rules and regulation sof islamic law which he is supposed to have extensively studied and learnt

Any moder day problems that we have we must ask a qualified scholar, I think the solution to our problem is a fatwa , urgh I wish i could say it better, anyone?

it is not made up nor is it existing in the form the schoalr would tell you before,r ather he would ahve to utilise the best example in the past to tell people what to do today, which becomes like a rule for people to follow, and that is caleld a fatwa :S:S:S I m not making sense right:S
Reply

جوري
06-25-2009, 09:58 PM
this thread has meandered all over the place.
1- The OP can't articulate what he wants by way of mocking Islam/Muslims-- which I think personally is rather easy considering all they need to do is cut and paste from one of their numerous venomous sites.
2-The OP is unable to understand the points raised in the post, in reply to his ill-informed deductions (and I am being generous to think it a product of free thought rather than the usual classes of indoctrination which produces many android clones who mimic and speech and clap for one another)
3-The OP is unable or unwilling to click on links that display his religion in its authentic colors, would rather dismiss it as an anti-Christians site, when in fact it is an anti-Islamic site
4- The OP can't handle the fact that others are on to the transparency of his charade, so would rather hang on to some ancillary comment that has nothing to do with the thread all together
5- New friends and/or supporters come to the OP's aid with a deranged query that again has nothing to do with the thread or contents..
6- Other members come to clarify later yields for the friends and/or supporters of the OP in hopes to dilute the matter further...

You see, this is exactly why I get annoyed.. I really don't like hypocrisy and false pretenses!
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-25-2009, 10:01 PM
Thread should be closed.
Reply

HopeFul
06-25-2009, 10:01 PM
I would agree, i think I did it too, jumped in without reading much what it was about. Sorry for derailing.
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Zafran
06-25-2009, 10:08 PM
close the thread!!!!! mods
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Tony
06-25-2009, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
close the thread!!!!! mods
just one more post to get my count up, oops did i say that out loud:X
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Tony
06-25-2009, 10:41 PM
and one more to announce my 1000th post, do i get any privalages for this
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piers
06-27-2009, 11:44 AM
look guys there have been too many red herrings. we started out on the hadiths and for some reason of which I dont understand why you (generally muslims on this boards) started attacking the christian faith. Now can I ask threads about islam are dealt with in an islamic context and if you have things you wanna say against christians or the christian faith you do on a separate post. I will happily answer stuff like why the trinity isnt 3 gods etc but not in the same thread as something about allah being the female moon god etc because it gets too much to keep up with.
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'Abd-al Latif
06-27-2009, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
doesnt mohammed give permission to lie?
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
piers are you confusing lying with breaking oaths?

066.002
YUSUFALI: Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths: and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
no here I found something about lying, but it is in war.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

The "little white lie"?:

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
This is a permissibility, not an encouragement.

The basic principle concerning telling lies is that it is one of the signs of the hypocrites, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies, when he makes a promise he breaks it, and when he is entrusted with something he breaks that trust.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 32; Muslim, 89.

But there are some instances in which Islam permits lying, if that serves a greater purpose or wards off a greater harm:

These cases include the following:

1- When a person is intermediating in order to bring about reconciliation between two disputing parties.

2- When a man speaks to his wife, or a wife to her husband, concerning matters that will increase the love between them.

3- War.

It was narrated from Umm Kulthoom bint ‘Uqbah that she heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “He is not a liar who brings about reconciliation among people, conveys good words and says good things.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2546; Muslim, 2605

It was narrated that Asma’ bint Yazeed said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Lies are not appropriate except in three cases: when a man speaks to his wife to please her, telling lies at times of war, and lying in order to bring about reconciliation between people.”
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/47564

And as for this:

format_quote Originally Posted by piers
not in the same thread as something about allah being the female moon god etc because it gets too much to keep up with.
This is false junk and myth from a Christian known as Robert Morey. How can Allah be the moon god when Allah himself states explicitally not to worship the moon??

"And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him." [Quran 41:37]
Reply

piers
06-27-2009, 08:17 PM
"And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him." [Quran 41:37]
I think you missed my point. my point was lets talk about christian issues on 1 thread and muslim ones on another because otherwise there become too many red herrings.
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جوري
06-29-2009, 03:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
I think you missed my point. my point was lets talk about christian issues on 1 thread and muslim ones on another because otherwise there become too many red herrings.

seeing that you are the actual culprit and cause of said derangement on this thread-- I suggest you heed your own advise, and try to better formulate what you plagiarize from your fundy sites so you are not leaving the whole of us in a hearty guffaw.. surely you can get away with such deceptive propaganda in your small village, but you are in the city now!

all the best
Reply

Follower
06-29-2009, 11:55 AM
convert you are misunderstanding Paul- he is not condoning lying. Please read it again.

Romans 3

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
Reply

Follower
06-29-2009, 12:05 PM
something Gossamer pasted -"Telling lies is not part of the human nature."

But then turthfulness can be acquired? Are we clean slates?

"Therefore, truthfulness is a conduct that can be acquired by keenness and persistence in telling the truth - even if it requires a lot of effort. A Muslim should strive to accomplish such a noble characteristic so that he can set a good example to the coming generations."


Where do muslims believe lying comes from?
Reply

convert
06-29-2009, 12:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
convert you are misunderstanding Paul- he is not condoning lying. Please read it again.

Romans 3

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
I noticed you chose the 1 translation that switches from the 1st person to the 3rd person (NIV), especially in verse 7. I wonder why that is?

http://bible.cc/romans/3-7.htm
Reply

Follower
06-29-2009, 12:36 PM
Which were you using? Present day english is easier for some to understand. Scholars have studied the language, gone back and put in our terms what was meant. An example that exist even today:

Matthew 19
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The true translation for camel is that it is a rope:
http://www.aramaicpe****ta.com/Arama.../Mattich19.pdf

The different translation do not change the meaning of the passage.
Reply

convert
06-29-2009, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Which were you using? Present day english is easier for some to understand. Scholars have studied the language, gone back and put in our terms what was meant. An example that exist even today:

Matthew 19
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The true translation for camel is that it is a rope:
http://www.aramaicpe****ta.com/Arama.../Mattich19.pdf

The different translation do not change the meaning of the passage.
Every other translation there is since the dearth of information points to that lone translation being the outlier, and hence why you used it to soften or remove the blow.

If you want to play that game then why is there the big "King James only" movement in christianity? Seems when scholars did that to come out with the New Revised Standard edition and found many verses to be fraudulent (especially with regards to that "there are three in heaven" verse) people didn't like that.

But this is going off-topic with regards to the original post however.
Reply

piers
06-30-2009, 10:24 AM
seeing that you are the actual culprit and cause of said derangement on this thread-- I suggest you heed your own advise, and try to better formulate what you plagiarize from your fundy sites so you are not leaving the whole of us in a hearty guffaw.. surely you can get away with such deceptive propaganda in your small village, but you are in the city now!
unbelievable accusing my of derailing my own thread how amusing. It was fine until some muslim brought romans 3 up. If islam gets attacked then there is always some attack made on the christian faith to move attention away from the issue with islam. The issue was the use of hadiths and I followed up with a question on lieing because it came up and is in the hadiths. I found the technical term for this: takeyya
Reply

Follower
06-30-2009, 01:28 PM
convert - yes it is, I have to mention that you were the one bringing it up-you are the one that brought it up. I have to say that because I am often accused of derailing threads which very often I am but not this time!!

Many Bible study groups request that people bring many different translations to their meetings. If you are really trying to get to the truth studying all the different translations brings fuller meaning and understanding.

Back to the issue!
I will repost:
"something Gossamer pasted -"Telling lies is not part of the human nature."

But then turthfulness can be acquired? Are we clean slates?

"Therefore, truthfulness is a conduct that can be acquired by keenness and persistence in telling the truth - even if it requires a lot of effort. A Muslim should strive to accomplish such a noble characteristic so that he can set a good example to the coming generations." "


Where do muslims believe lying comes from?
Reply

convert
06-30-2009, 01:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
unbelievable accusing my of derailing my own thread how amusing. It was fine until some muslim brought romans 3 up. If islam gets attacked then there is always some attack made on the christian faith to move attention away from the issue with islam. The issue was the use of hadiths and I followed up with a question on lieing because it came up and is in the hadiths. I found the technical term for this: takeyya
Cute. Resort to accusations when you have nothing to stand on. Correct me if I am wrong but it was a christian who made accusations that nothing re: condoning lying could be found in christian literature, correct? I had to show you where you were wrong.

And yes, you did derail the thread topic. Switching from the weight given to hadith right into accusing the prophet (saw) of telling us to lie. You're just too much man.
Reply

Zafran
06-30-2009, 01:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
unbelievable accusing my of derailing my own thread how amusing. It was fine until some muslim brought romans 3 up. If islam gets attacked then there is always some attack made on the christian faith to move attention away from the issue with islam. The issue was the use of hadiths and I followed up with a question on lieing because it came up and is in the hadiths. I found the technical term for this: takeyya
Your Question has clearly been answerd so no idea what your bragging about - its you who had fit about Romans 3.

some christains shouldnt be hypocritical - If they expect to chuck charges at Muslims without even looking at there own religion - simple as that.
Reply

Follower
06-30-2009, 01:49 PM
someone mentioned that in war you do not tell your strategies

I am remembering possibly incorrectly, that USA has in fact make it fairly well known when we were going to attack an enemy country and that is why the Pearl Harbor attack was such a shock to us.

Twin Towers attack another story - no one country involved- just muslims.
Reply

convert
06-30-2009, 01:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
someone mentioned that in war you do not tell your strategies

I am remembering possibly incorrectly, that USA has in fact make it fairly well known when we were going to attack an enemy country and that is why the Pearl Harbor attack was such a shock to us.

Twin Towers attack another story - no one country involved- just muslims.
I believe we have deduced the intentions of the OP.

This post right here is a clear example of a worthless post and thread litter.
Reply

Zafran
06-30-2009, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
someone mentioned that in war you do not tell your strategies

I am remembering possibly incorrectly, that USA has in fact make it fairly well known when we were going to attack an enemy country and that is why the Pearl Harbor attack was such a shock to us.

Twin Towers attack another story - no one country involved- just muslims.
America didnt talk about the strategies in invading Japan during WW2 - (no Allied Country did) - or that they were making an atomic bomb to wipe civilans off the face of the earth. The same thing about Iraq and Afganistan. Same thing about having concentartion camps in america during the world war 2 - where they put Japenese in because they didnt trust them.

Again going off topic thanks to you - but you had to be corrected.
Reply

Follower
06-30-2009, 02:13 PM
LOL!! you are not understanding -I am not equating telling strategies with announcing that you will attack. These are 2 different things.

One [warning of attack] is to help civilians get out of the way the other- well of course in war there is the need to not tell the whole plan, to protect your soldiers.

Isn't this more an omission of facts and not outright lying?
Reply

Zafran
06-30-2009, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
LOL!! you are not understanding -I am not equating telling strategies with announcing that you will attack. These are 2 different things.

One [warning of attack] is to help civilians get out of the way the other- well of course in war there is the need to not tell the whole plan, to protect your soldiers.

Isn't this more an omission of facts and not outright lying?
whos off topic now ;) - you could call it lying if you want as "warning the civilains" doesnt work - even the Mongols did that. Innocent people still died.

But your openly off topic.
Reply

جوري
06-30-2009, 05:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piers
unbelievable accusing my of derailing my own thread how amusing.
Glad that it is both unbelievable and amusing -- I think I am getting a feel for your exasperation!

It was fine until some muslim brought romans 3 up. If islam gets attacked then there is always some attack made on the christian faith to move attention away from the issue with islam.
You are inept at debating, and misconstrue christian tenets for attacks, or dismiss them as anti-christian when in fact they came from a christian site that openly attacks muslims, do you bother click on the links provided?

The issue was the use of hadiths and I followed up with a question on lieing because it came up and is in the hadiths. I found the technical term for this: takeyya
I told you before there is no such word as 'lieing' perhaps if you can fix your syntax and grammar, and compose some intelligible sentences can we understand the psycho-babble you are spewing!

all the best
Reply

piers
07-02-2009, 01:07 PM
I told you before there is no such word as 'lieing' perhaps if you can fix your syntax and grammar, and compose some intelligible sentences can we understand the psycho-babble you are spewing!
I am dyslexic and because of that have trouble with sintax and sentance structure.

You are inept at debating, and misconstrue christian tenets for attacks, or dismiss them as anti-christian when in fact they came from a christian site that openly attacks muslims, do you bother click on the links provided?
I dont bother to click links to b/s, on one of the other forums some islamic links I was given I will check out but not some fringe group of christians. Some random group of "christians" promoting sin IE lieing doesnt constitute something christ was associated with or me. Also truth is if I quoted some wahabbis supporting suicide bombing, you wouldnt associate yourself with them. The fact I dont wanna associate with anyone who isnt following christ teaching is quite reasonable. would you associate with a armadi?

As for mohammed I brought that up because it is in the hadiths him permitting lieing, you are taught by your imams that you can lie to spread islam and so that is why I bring it up.

Also I am NOT a funde christian, never have been, never will.


Glad that it is both unbelievable and amusing -- I think I am getting a feel for your exasperation!
its not exasperation, I debate athiests a lot of the time and they have some good arguements. I am just surprised at the lack of quality amongst muslims and your methods and so it is quite funny to me.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-02-2009, 01:25 PM
you are taught by your imams that you can lie to spread islam and so that is why I bring it up.
We can never ever lie about our religion, especially when it comes to telling to people about it. So maybe you need to get your facts straight. Also I'd love to see which imam allows you to lie? Rather than just spoonfeedings us nonsense, why don't you bother providing some legit proof?

its not exasperation, I debate athiests a lot of the time and they have some good arguements. I am just surprised at the lack of quality amongst muslims and your methods and so it is quite funny to me.
Or possibly because you can't grasp it?? Perhaps. I don't blame you or do I? Who knows.
Reply

convert
07-02-2009, 01:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
We can never ever lie about our religion, especially when it comes to telling to people about it. So maybe you need to get your facts straight. Also I'd love to see which imam allows you to lie? Rather than just spoonfeedings us nonsense, why don't you bother providing some legit proof?



Or possibly because you can't grasp it?? Perhaps. I don't blame you or do I? Who knows.
Funny, I showed clear as day where Paul the Liar permits his followers to lie outright and he has shown no such evidence from Quran or Sunnah to that effect.

"Lack of quality arguments" = "I can't respond or refute so I dismiss outright and change the subject"
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-02-2009, 01:36 PM
^^I would have to agree.


Perhaps you didnt read Gossamers post on t he first page piers? Or can u not be bothered to?

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
here is the ruling on lies in Islam

Details

Name of Questioner
Ahmed - United Arab Emirates

Title
Lying Is Not a Trait of the Muslim

Question
Respected scholars of Islam, as-Salamu `alaykum. I would like to know the Shari`ah-based ruling on telling lies. Jazakum Allah Khayran.

Date
04/Apr/2004

Name of Counsellor

Topic
Morals & Values

Answer

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear brother in Islam, it gives us pleasure to receive your question and to see the Muslim youth are interested in knowing the teachings of Islam, which Allah has chosen for His servants as a way of life. According to the Qur’an, a true Muslim should refer to scholars to get himself well-acquainted with the sound image of Islam.

Truthfulness, trustworthiness, faithfulness, and honesty are Islamic traits that every Muslim should be distinguished with. Telling lies, dishonesty, and all evil and bad traits are not from Islam and Muslims, therefore, are not characterized by such traits.

The eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, states:

"Telling lies is a bad conduct. It is not proper for righteous people and true believers; rather, it is a sign of hypocrisy, as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: 'The hypocrite has three characteristics: he tells lies, breaks his promise and breaches the trust.' (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Also, Allah Almighty says, 'Only they invent falsehood who believe not Allah's revelations, and (only) they are the liars.' (An-Nahl: 105)

Telling lies is not part of the human nature. It is completely rejected in Islam, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) warned Muslims against such evil trait, saying: 'Stick to truthfulness, for it leads one to righteousness, and the latter leads to Paradise. Thus, when one sticks to truthfulness and shows keenness in it, Allah considers him as an absolutely truthful man. And avoid telling lies, for it leads to excessiveness, and this leads to Hell-Fire. Thus, when one persists in telling lies, Allah considers him as a liar.'

Therefore, truthfulness is a conduct that can be acquired by keenness and persistence in telling the truth - even if it requires a lot of effort. A Muslim should strive to accomplish such a noble characteristic so that he can set a good example to the coming generations.

There are levels of lying, i.e., the more harm lying causes, the more urgently it is rejected and the severer punishment for it will be. Thus, some lies are considered minor sins, while others are major ones."

You can also read:

Lying Jokingly

Effect of Lying on Fasting

If you are still in need of more information, don't hesitate to contact us. Do keep in touch. May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543896


however, I'd advise you to google the 'stealth crusade' to see the christian view on lying though, it is quite interesting, the tactics, the misinformation and the lies!

all the best
Reply

thetruth2009
07-26-2009, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Everyone accepts the Authority of the Prophet. Whoever does not believe in Prophet Muhammad is not a Muslim.



Yes, as this is a part of the promise of God to protect and preserve His
religion.

Allah SWT did not say hadiths are protected but the Quran :

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.


No, because it is impermissible to lie upon the Prophet.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Telling lies about me is not like telling lies about anyone else. Whoever tells lies about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.” [Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1229].

My brother I have one question how can you be sure the Hadiths we have nowdays cantains all the saying of our prophete Mohamed SWS, how can you be sure ???

I beleive in Hadiths but how I can be sure that they are all truth, as you Know Imam Muhammed al-bukhari compiled about 600 000 hadiths and at the end take only about 7 000 Hadits, how its possible ???

Maybe hadiths did not take were available and maybe inside the hadiths we have today there are many fals no ?? what do you think ?



Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers, may allah SWT forgive us and guide us, Amine.
Reply

Woodrow
07-26-2009, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
My brother I have one question how can you be sure the Hadiths we have nowdays cantains all the saying of our prophete Mohamed SWS, how can you be sure ???
I doubt very much that the Books of Ahadith contain all of the sayings of our Prophet(PBUH) It is only logical he would have said things that were very specific for his closest companions and for them alone. But, we can be certain that the Ahadith with a high degree of reliability and authenticity were spoken by our Prophet(PBUH)

format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
I beleive in Hadiths but how I can be sure that they are all truth, as you Know Imam Muhammed al-bukhari compiled about 600 000 hadiths and at the end take only about 7 000 Hadits, how its possible ???
While there may be be other Ahadith that are true. The only ones we can be certain of being true are those with a high degree of Authenticity and reliability. That is why only those 7,000 or so are found in any true books of Ahadith. When you read a Hadith it is essential you check the source, narrator etc.



format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
Maybe hadiths did not take were available and maybe inside the hadiths we have today there are many fals no ?? what do you think ?
There have been many false hadith written. This is why the Science of Hadith is such an important study. The Ahadith are written by man and do not have the protection of the Qur'an. However, this does not lessen the truth or reliability or obligation to follow the proven Ahadith.



format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers, may allah SWT forgive us and guide us, Amine.
Ameen

:wa:
Reply

Basit
07-26-2009, 03:31 PM
Could anyone give me the correct meaning of the undermentioned Quraanic verse:

"Waa'budhu Rabbakum Hatha Yehthiya Kal Yakeen"

Please note Yakeen is not death.


Just a try.

Does it mean: Carry out missions for the Lord until the unavoidable come to you.


Sorry if it was wrong......Salam!
Reply

thetruth2009
07-26-2009, 03:33 PM
Assalam Aleykoum Brother,

Thank you for your reply I would like to add things, Allah SWT says :


In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[3:103] You shall hold fast to the rope of GOD, all of you, and do not be divided.......


Allah SWT give us a recommandation its about the Quran the protected book, Allah SWT did not say Hadiths, but I trust and I beleive in Hadith.

What I am hearing from my childhood in mosque its always about Hadiths, years before I was focused and hadiths and I forget the Quran, what I want to say that people always saying and its always about Hadiths and we are forgotten Allah SWT book, is it true or not ???

Can you Imagine if we are spreading a false Hadiths about the prophete Mohamed SWS ??, can you imagine the risk ??? its directly to hell, may Allah SWT protect us .

I do not know if somebody can bring me the Hadith about throwing stone to death to A man or Woman having relation ( adultery ).

Thank you my brother for your sincer reply.


Aking Allah SWT to guide us all and to forgive us, Amine.
Reply

thetruth2009
07-26-2009, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basit
Just a try.

Does it mean: Carry out missions for the Lord until the unavoidable come to you.


Sorry if it was wrong......Salam!

Assalam aleykoum my brother,


Yakeen means to be 100 % sure, certain.


Asking Allah SWT to forgive us and to guide us Amien.
Reply

Basit
07-26-2009, 04:08 PM
Assalam aleykoum my brother,


Yakeen means to be 100 % sure, certain.


Asking Allah SWT to forgive us and to guide us Amien.
Al-Salam Alaykum brother,

thanks for the correction. im not yet well into translation of Quraanic words as they differ in spoken arabic in most cases, i think. maybe the "the unavoidable" should mean "the certain" as what u have said.

Jazak Allah khair.
Reply

Basit
07-26-2009, 04:11 PM
Al Salam Alaykum brothers,

Can i ask if theres any haddith reagrding a man not marrying or having no wife?
Reply

thetruth2009
07-26-2009, 04:19 PM
Assalam aleykoum,

If I translate it is :

Waa'budhu-Rabbakum- Hatha - Yehthiya Kal - Yakeen

Worship-your god - until - he gives you - the certainty


That is the translation if any body can give you a better translation.


Assalam aleykoum, asking god to forgive us and guide us Amine.
Reply

thetruth2009
07-26-2009, 04:21 PM
Assalam aleykoum,


I am asking to a Hadith, wich is about throwing stones to death ( Adultery penalty) can somebody bring it to me.

Thanking you in advance.

Asking god to forgive us and guide us, Amine.
Reply

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