Islam, the Middle Way in ALL aspects.

[- Qatada -]

asalam alaikum warahmatulah wabarakatuh

Islam, the Middle Way in ALL aspects.


Let's try to look at the different things which make Islam the middle way from all other ways of life;

Prophet Muhammad came from the Arabian Peninsula, that's in the middle of the world [Middle East.] Not in the west, nor in the far east.

He himself was light skinned, with a slight tinge of a tan. If he was extremely black, some might not have accepted him, and if he was extremely white, others might not have accepted him. But by being in between, he would neutral it out. He had neither curly, nor straight hair, and was of average height and build. He was the middle way in all aspects, with mercy and justice. He was the middle way, outwardly and inwardly.

His companions were of different colours; arab, black (Bilal, Um Ayman), white (Suhayb the Roman, Zunayra [the one who temporary got blind]), brown (Salman the Persian) and male and female, poor and rich. This covers all forms of people, and he was the kindest to all of them, and they testified to this.


The Qur'an is a Criterion, Book of Justice, severe in threat to those who do evil, and merciful to those who are sincere and do good.

The Language that the Qur'an was revealed is both a language based on grammar, and also a phonetic language. (I.e. some languages are just grammar based i.e. Latin, but they might not be as Phonetic. Then there's other languages like Punjabi, or Mandarin Chinese which are phonetic more than they are grammar based.) Arabic is a composition of both. An example of its grammar and phoneticness is for example the word "Aba" - this means father. If i'm correct, Aba also comes from 'Baab' which means 'gate'. And the father is the 'gate' of the family i.e. people only come through him to the family. And the Phoneticness is the concept of other words i.e. forefathers, so if you prolonged the word Aba [father], you would say "Aabaaaa" = your forefathers (i.e. father, grandfather, great grandfather etc.)


Even the writing style of Arabic is the middle way. If you look at chinese/japanese writing, which is from the far east, and compare it to the languages of the West, you see that Arabic is between both. (from my personal perspective) i.e. chinese is written usually through the likes of a paintbrush style, english through the likes of a thin pencil line style, and arabic with a mix of both, forming calligraphy style.


Another concept is the belief in Prophet Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.) The Jews reject him and curse him, saying he was an imposter. The Christians raise him to the level of God, or a part of God. We say he is a servant and Messenger of God, and of the greatest of Prophets.


Another factor is that Islam has a balance between science and belief in God. So we believe that science is a pattern of Allah's creation. You'll notice that there isn't much detail about the specifics in science in the Qur'an or Sunnah, simply because Allah has given us senses and tools to understand the universe around us. So if a certain supernatural event does occur, we have an open mind to accept it as something supernatural (i.e. Jinn), or something which might be based on science and explainable in the future through other means.

add yours :D

[crayon]

A very nice read, jazak Allah khair for sharing. :)

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Since emotions are very powerful tools, some of them can bring about world wars, we are taught to control them. I.e time and place for anger, time and place for love etc.

To take it further; indeed, anger leads to violence, and so we supress that anger to avoid starting a fight/getting into arguments. Note; this is not the same as eliminating the emotion.

So it works something like this:

Left path: ''Remove anger''

Islam: ''Control your anger''

Right path: ''Encourage anger''

[Misz_Muslimah]

Jazaakalahu khayr for sharing..

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[Candle]

Cool post. I'm not familiar enough to make any "middle points", but I agree that Arabic is the most amazing language. I compare its beauty only to Latin alone. It's nice to see Muhammad was a real person with real characteristics too, not just an ancient ethereal figure..

[shuraimfan4lyf]

Great way of thinking masha'Allah..jazak'Allah khair. :w:

[Trumble]

:sl:
To take it further; indeed, anger leads to violence, and so we supress that anger to avoid starting a fight/getting into arguments. Note; this is not the same as eliminating the emotion.

No, it isn't. Why do you consider suppression of anger preferable to it's elimination?

[aadil77]

No, it isn't. Why do you consider suppression of anger preferable to it's elimination?

because you don't turn into a pacifist but instead you learn to use your anger when necessary and not in unecessary situations

[marwen]

No, it isn't. Why do you consider suppression of anger preferable to it's elimination?

eliminating the anger is of course the best, but it's sometimes impossible to do (we're humans, we sometimes can't prevent ourselves to feel angry), so the best solution (not the bad solution:fight, neither the impossible one:elimination) is to controle our anger and our reaction.

[Lynx]

Lol.

Fallacy of the mean (argumentum ad tempernatiam) is the first thing that comes to mind.

[جوري]

Lol.

Fallacy of the mean (argumentum ad tempernatiam) is the first thing that comes to mind.

'like lol' is your claim to fame a cagey avoidance of any topic and a straight go at what you deem fallacious?.. I understand you paid some cash for a course that by the standards of most is considered worthless and perhaps all it can afford you is a kiosk or a falafel cart and a mediocre writing hobby on some forum.. simply pointing out that something is fallacious isn't enough to make an argument least of which when you are having a solo hearty guffaw on the side.. firstly since the topic isn't pointing out that this extreme is wrong and that extreme is equally wrong, there is actually no moral agenda to the above, rather it is about what made Islam appealing in certain respects.
There is no if Quran were revealed in Japanese it would have been divine error or if the Quran were revealed in English it would have been a divine taking the easy way out and even if it were, you'd have a heck of a time proving that the Arabic revelation was a wrong choice in judgment .. In fact the best you can do is a 'lol' well here is another lol right back at ya!

[Lynx]

'like lol' is your claim to fame a cagey avoidance of any topic and a straight go at what you deem fallacious?.. I understand you paid some cash for a course that by the standards of most is considered worthless and perhaps all it can afford you is a kiosk or a falafel cart and a mediocre writing hobby on some forum..

what exactly is worthless about being able to point out the fallacies in what people say? That's a priceless skill. You go to the weekly khutbah and I presume a lot of the time you feel moved at what the imam says; i go to the weekly khutbah and i can't do anything but pick out fallacy after fallacy. Not so worthless if i say so myself.

hmm, this is exactly what's wrong with the university system in the west today. People think university is a trade school where you go to get a skill that will get you a job. people have forgotten that the university is where the love for wisdom is cultivated; why are people so money driven today ? mini-capitalists aren't we all. it seems that every other university graduate thinks the only thing that matters is getting a skill that can be sold for money. plato would turn in his grave if he saw what his Academy has evolved into. If you went to university and you did not have your personal beliefs challenged even the slightest then the university failed you.

simply pointing out that something is fallacious isn't enough to make an argument least of which when you are having a solo hearty guffaw on the side..

With a thread title like "Islam, the Middle Way in ALL aspects", how can I resist but pointing out the obvious fallacy?

firstly since the topic isn't pointing out that this extreme is wrong and that extreme is equally wrong, there is actually no moral agenda to the above, rather it is about what made Islam appealing in certain respects.

the topic is pointing out virtues in the 'golden mean' (i.e., moderation in all aspects) and how Islam should be praised for figuring out the all-beneficial moderate path that the prophet spoke of. It's a great rule of thumb here and there but it is by no means the best thing for "ALL" aspects. That is why it's fallacious.

There is no if Quran were revealed in Japanese it would have been divine error or if the Quran were revealed in English it would have been a divine taking the easy way out and even if it were, you'd have a heck of a time proving that the Arabic revelation was a wrong choice in judgment .. In fact the best you can do is a 'lol' well here is another lol right back at ya!

hmm okay, if you say so.

[جوري]

what exactly is worthless about being able to point out the fallacies in what people say? That's a priceless skill. You go to the weekly khutbah and I presume a lot of the time you feel moved at what the imam says; i go to the weekly khutbah and i can't do anything but pick out fallacy after fallacy. Not so worthless if i say so myself.

Is it a priceless skill? I have never attended a khutbah in my life :(

hmm, this is exactly what's wrong with the university system in the west today. People think university is a trade school where you go to get a skill that will get you a job. people have forgotten that the university is where the love for wisdom is cultivated;

If you feel it is cultivated on a forum then frankly that is a waste!

why are people so money driven today ? mini-capitalists aren't we all.

No just in the west!

it seems that every other university graduate thinks the only thing that matters is getting a skill that can be sold for money.

that would make it 50% --not bad, where do you reckon the other fifty go? in front of the TV I guess living off the tax and well fare of the other half!

plato would turn in his grave if he saw what his Academy has evolved into. If you went to university and you did not have your personal beliefs challenged even the slightest then the university failed you.

Maybe.. but going to university is about acquisition of useful skills with which you are to serve humanity, not act as a one party cynic!

With a thread title like "Islam, the Middle Way in ALL aspects", how can I resist but pointing out the obvious fallacy?

You have made an assertion but failed to elucidate how they are applicable to what was written (as usual).. there is more to it than a thrill of remonstrating!

the topic is pointing out virtues in the 'golden mean' (i.e., moderation in all aspects) and how Islam should be praised for figuring out the all-beneficial moderate path that the prophet spoke of. It's a great rule of thumb here and there but it is by no means the best thing for "ALL" aspects. That is why it's fallacious.

You are yet to point out how it isn't the 'best thing for ALL aspects' I'll be waiting for your detailed analyses!

hmm okay, if you say so.

Indeed!

all the best

[Lynx]

You are yet to point out how it isn't the 'best thing for ALL aspects' I'll be waiting for your detailed analyses!

but that's the very fallacy- to think that the middle path is always the best path. one single counter-example is sufficient to disprove the claim of the OP.

"# A month ago, a tree in Bill's yard was damaged in a storm. His neighbor, Joe, asked him to have the tree cut down so it would not fall on Joes new shed. Bill refused to do this. Two days ago another storm blew the tree onto Joe's new shed. Joe demanded that Joe pay the cost of repairs, which was $250. Bill said that he wasn't going to pay a cent. Obviously, the best solution is to reach a compromise between the two extremes, so Bill should pay Joe $125 dollars. "

You can google more sophisticated examples of the fallacy. Bottom line is that there's no reason to think the middle ground is always the best ground. i'll bet this whole notion of the middle ground is just conventional wisdom passed down by cultures and the OP is taking it way too seriously as if it's the truth of all truths~

AND
if you don't mind me asking, howcome you've never attended a khutbah before?

[جوري]

but that's the very fallacy- to think that the middle path is always the best path. one single counter-example is sufficient to disprove the claim of the OP.

It isn't, it just exempts you from doing some hard work.. if you enjoy this and clearly I can see that you do, then don't mind me quoting from Islamic hadith:

البزّار في مسنده أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال : " ان الله تعالى يحب أحدكم إذا عَمِلَ عملاً أن يتقنه، قيل وما اتقانه يا رسول الله؟ قال :" يخلصه من الرياء والبدعة ".

''Surely Allah loves when you do a job, that you do it with proficiency and high fidelity and that you free it from pretense and hypocrisy''

"# A month ago, a tree in Bill's yard was damaged in a storm. His neighbor, Joe, asked him to have the tree cut down so it would not fall on Joes new shed. Bill refused to do this. Two days ago another storm blew the tree onto Joe's new shed. Joe demanded that Joe pay the cost of repairs, which was $250. Bill said that he wasn't going to pay a cent. Obviously, the best solution is to reach a compromise between the two extremes, so Bill should pay Joe $125 dollars. "

Irrelevant in its entirety to this thread!

You can google more sophisticated examples of the fallacy. Bottom line is that there's no reason to think the middle ground is always the best ground. i'll bet this whole notion of the middle ground is just conventional wisdom passed down by cultures and the OP is taking it way too seriously as if it's the truth of all truths~

We are speaking of specific truths not a catch all sentiments!

AND
if you don't mind me asking, howcome you've never attended a khutbah before?

I don't know-- I'd say that I am a private reclusive person who doesn't reach out for community support, and prefer to do my learning and religious duties in a solo fashion!
Perhaps I'll attend one this Ramadan or something if chance permits..

all the best

[marwen]

but that's the very fallacy- to think that the middle path is always the best path. one single counter-example is sufficient to disprove the claim of the OP.

"# A month ago, a tree in Bill's yard was damaged in a storm. His neighbor, Joe, asked him to have the tree cut down so it would not fall on Joes new shed. Bill refused to do this. Two days ago another storm blew the tree onto Joe's new shed. Joe demanded that Joe pay the cost of repairs, which was $250. Bill said that he wasn't going to pay a cent. Obviously, the best solution is to reach a compromise between the two extremes, so Bill should pay Joe $125 dollars. "

You can google more sophisticated examples of the fallacy. Bottom line is that there's no reason to think the middle ground is always the best ground. i'll bet this whole notion of the middle ground is just conventional wisdom passed down by cultures and the OP is taking it way too seriously as if it's the truth of all truths~

Moderation is most of the times the best decision. Extremes are very risqy and, if you stand in the limit you will not gain the good of every part. For example if you are presenting a lecture and you're standing in front of the audience, you'd better stand in the middle to see the whole people. In physics, the center of gravity is the key point to make an object stable or to move it. If you want to hold a big plank, you have to hold it from the middle. It's a general rule, and if you don't have a fixed method of work, then a moderated decision is the right choice.
Yes you can give exceptions/counter-examples. But these are exceptions caused by new factors (the example you gave is not really representative, one of the friends is a thief, so the situation is not normal).
Nature is generally following a "normal distribution" (gaussian distribution) where the middle part is privileged and the limits are uninteresting zones.

Gaussian distribution

what this thread is about is religion. You certainly agree that moderation in a religion is an important condition. Islam doesn't recommend extremism : we should not be too strict so we make prophets and scholars like Gods or kill every body, and we should not be too loose with our religion so we neglect its basics.

[Dagless]

but that's the very fallacy- to think that the middle path is always the best path. one single counter-example is sufficient to disprove the claim of the OP.

"# A month ago, a tree in Bill's yard was damaged in a storm. His neighbor, Joe, asked him to have the tree cut down so it would not fall on Joes new shed. Bill refused to do this. Two days ago another storm blew the tree onto Joe's new shed. Joe demanded that Joe pay the cost of repairs, which was $250. Bill said that he wasn't going to pay a cent. Obviously, the best solution is to reach a compromise between the two extremes, so Bill should pay Joe $125 dollars.

Either this is satire, in which case fair enough... or you're being serious, in which case why reply to a thread you clearly don't understand?

[Candle]

Part of exercising sound judgement is knowing when and where to apply the mean. Lynx, the example you gave was an example of where not to apply the mean. But we can use it as an indication of where to apply the mean: Joe should receive adequate compensation for his shed, either tangible or monetary. By not demanding full compensation, Joe is exercising too little demand. By destroying Bill's shed in retaliation, Joe is exercising too much demand. Here, replacing the shed is the correct application of the mean, which forms the basis of ethical conduct.

Virtue ethics has a long and illustrious history in the East as well as the west. = )

[Ramadhan]

but that's the very fallacy- to think that the middle path is always the best path. one single counter-example is sufficient to disprove the claim of the OP.

"# A month ago, a tree in Bill's yard was damaged in a storm. His neighbor, Joe, asked him to have the tree cut down so it would not fall on Joes new shed. Bill refused to do this. Two days ago another storm blew the tree onto Joe's new shed. Joe demanded that Joe pay the cost of repairs, which was $250. Bill said that he wasn't going to pay a cent. Obviously, the best solution is to reach a compromise between the two extremes, so Bill should pay Joe $125 dollars. "

I am chuckling at your brevity in exposing yourself as someone who knows nothing about the matter being discussed and yet who opens mouth the widest and thinks he is the genius.

[Trumble]

what exactly is worthless about being able to point out the fallacies in what people say? That's a priceless skill.

As is being able to judge when doing so is being constructive rather than merely being a smartass.

Clearly the claim, were it seriously being made, that "Islam is the Middle Way in all aspects" is wrong; simply considering "good" and "evil" in that context is enough to demonstrate that. Here, though, the first post is a discussion piece with an exaggerated heading, not an attempt to support a serious philosophical claim.

[Ramadhan]

Part of exercising sound judgement is knowing when and where to apply the mean. Lynx, the example you gave was an example of where not to apply the mean. But we can use it as an indication of where to apply the mean: Joe should receive adequate compensation for his shed, either tangible or monetary. By not demanding full compensation, Joe is exercising too little demand. By destroying Bill's shed in retaliation, Joe is exercising too much demand. Here, replacing the shed is the correct application of the mean, which forms the basis of ethical conduct.

Virtue ethics has a long and illustrious history in the East as well as the west. = )

In Islam, Justice is paramount.
Treat everyone and everything with just and fairness and do not transgress.
This is repeated many times in the Qur'an.

[Lynx]

Clearly the claim, were it seriously being made, that "Islam is the Middle Way in all aspects" is wrong; simply considering "good" and "evil" in that context is enough to demonstrate that. Here, though, the first post is a discussion piece with an exaggerated heading, not an attempt to support a serious philosophical claim.

There are people who think the middle path is always the right path. I know the OP is exaggerating the point of his OP; I only posted my response in the case that anyone actually thinks that 'the middle path is always the best path'. The thread was pushed further when Skye asked me to show how the middle path ISN'T the best path.

[جوري]

The thread was pushed further when Skye asked me to show how the middle path ISN'T the best path.

Correction, I asked you to prove it with regards to points raised, and not as a general rule..


all the best..

[Candle]

In Islam, Justice is paramount.
Treat everyone and everything with just and fairness and do not transgress.
This is repeated many times in the Qur'an.

Amen. Justice is a Godly virtue.

[Pygoscelis]

Is Islam is the "moderate mean" I can't even begin to imagine what the extreme could be. Seriously, how many ideologies are more conservative, dogmatic and authority driven than Islam? It is most definitely at one extreme, with homosexual hippie anarchist nudists at the other.

[جوري]

the opposite of hippie anarachist and nudists isn't Islam.. perhaps if you took a refresher course in second grade antonyms this would be more clear to you? certainly the antonym of 'gay' is 'depressed' not Muslim!

baby steps now and try again but do it on your own private time!

all the best

[Ramadhan]

Is Islam is the "moderate mean" I can't even begin to imagine what the extreme could be. Seriously, how many ideologies are more conservative, dogmatic and authority driven than Islam? It is most definitely at one extreme, with homosexual hippie anarchist nudists at the other.

It is interesting to note that you have been on this forum since 2006 and yet learned almost nothing about Islam.
I pity you, for this will weigh heavily against you in the judgement day.

[Alpha Dude]

i go to the weekly khutbah and i can't do anything but pick out fallacy after fallacy. Not so worthless if i say so myself.

With all due respect Lynx, that is nothing but arrogance on your part. If all you are going to do is condescend and not be willing to listen to anything people say because you over analyse and over intellectualise every single thing that is said, then you're not going to learn anything even if the wisdom was right in your face. You are willfully misguiding yourself out of arrogance.

[Pygoscelis]

It is interesting to note that you have been on this forum since 2006 and yet learned almost nothing about Islam.
I pity you, for this will weigh heavily against you in the judgement day.

No, you just don't like what i've learned about Islam. My views on Islam were actually formed entirely after my arrival here (though not just by this board). My original reason for coming here was actually to debunk a lot of the stuff that was being said about muslims after 9/11 and the anti-muslim hate it spawned.

But your adhoms and perceptions of my views aside, would you really dispute that Islam isn't extremely anti-homosexual, conservative (in dress and politic) and authority driven (you are given an entire code of life to adhere to in obedience to your creator). Doesn't Islam itself mean submit or surrender to power (Allah)? Can you really in all seriousness say this isn't extreme? Maybe you could argue its extreme in a good way, but I really don't think you'd have any ground to say its not extreme.

[marwen]

But your adhoms and perceptions of my views aside, would you really dispute that Islam isn't extremely anti-homosexual, conservative (in dress and politic) and authority driven (you are given an entire code of life to adhere to in obedience to your creator). Doesn't Islam itself mean submit or surrender to power (Allah)? Can you really in all seriousness say this isn't extreme? Maybe you could argue its extreme in a good way, but I really don't think you'd have any ground to say its not extreme.

You mentioned islamic position about homosexuality, dress, and about Allah. That's your viewpoint from your side (don't forget that). May be you are in the extremum, and anything moderated will seem to be so far from you, that you find it an extremum. If you were a homosexual, than a straight person will seem as an extremist in your eyes (that's just an example lol).
Your own definition of the mean in these issues (sexuality, dress, religion) will affect your position.

[Dagless]

No, you just don't like what i've learned about Islam. My views on Islam were actually formed entirely after my arrival here (though not just by this board). My original reason for coming here was actually to debunk a lot of the stuff that was being said about muslims after 9/11 and the anti-muslim hate it spawned.

That's a good reason (I don't mean that condescendingly, I just wanted to say it because there are those who don't have such open reasons).

But your adhoms and perceptions of my views aside, would you really dispute that Islam isn't extremely anti-homosexual, conservative (in dress and politic) and authority driven (you are given an entire code of life to adhere to in obedience to your creator). Doesn't Islam itself mean submit or surrender to power (Allah)? Can you really in all seriousness say this isn't extreme? Maybe you could argue its extreme in a good way, but I really don't think you'd have any ground to say its not extreme.

Being conservative does not mean you are extreme. Conservatism itself is not extremism, you would have to give examples of how it is extreme and what is in the middle and on the other end of the scale. I mean that for the whole religion, not just one thing. Submitting to God is the objective, I don't see how this can be considered extreme. What would be the middle point? Acknowledge a higher power and then don't submit to Him?? :S

[Pygoscelis]

No, the mean is a statistic, not an opinion. It means there is an equal number on either side of you. Do you really think there is an equal number of ideologies MORE anti-homosexual, conservative (in dress and politic) and authoritarian than Islam as there are ideologies less so? Being conservative doesn't mean you are extreme, it just means you are to one side of the mean rather than t he other (liberal). But Islam is not just a bit conservative. To take dress for one example, "no shirt, no shoes, no service" is a bit conservative, covering hair and head tp to avert the gazes of men is extreme. Just like bikinis in the mall is extreme. And some muslims are at the ultimate extreme, wearing full out masks (the opposite extreme being nudists). Its ok to admit you are well to one side of the norm - that isn't always a bad thing (it was well outside the norm to oppose slavery in the US south pre-civil war).

[جوري]

no religion, ideology or even laws of nature propose that homosexuality is a norm to even enter the equation for a Gaussian distribution.. you are in fact proposing something completely outside of the curve and try as you may to inject in there, it still doesn't belong..

you were recommended to go work on your antonyms.. but you certainly need to work on some common sense as well..
there is absolutely nothing about homosexuality or sex in general on this thread, why you see fit to pepper every topic with your deranged and debauched objections as if they were a point of interest for discussion at all is beyond me.. atheism is indeed a disgusting extreme with very zealot very immoral adherents that will not be happy as they see the entire world slide down the path of degeneracy!

[Dagless]

No, the mean is a statistic, not an opinion. It means there is an equal number on either side of you. Do you really think there is an equal number of ideologies MORE anti-homosexual, conservative (in dress and politic) and authoritarian than Islam as there are ideologies less so?

As I said you are picking and choosing very specific aspects and trying to label the whole religion. Most religions are against homosexuality, its just not enforced and is subject to change.

[جوري]

As I said you are picking and choosing very specific aspects and trying to label the whole religion. Most religions are against homosexuality, its just not enforced and is subject to change.

religions, ideologies and even nature.. what value is there for a non-reproductive futile cycle? the very laws of nature dictate that this act is a deviant abomination, if we are to cut all higher needs and go animalistic in keeping with atheist tenets!

:w:

[Candle]

No, the mean is a statistic, not an opinion. It means there is an equal number on either side of you. Do you really think there is an equal number of ideologies MORE anti-homosexual, conservative (in dress and politic) and authoritarian than Islam as there are ideologies less so?

No sir. The mean, here, is understood as Eudaimonia (Ευδαιμονια); Greek for well-being or happiness, which is accomplished by the Golden mean, a balance between excess and deficiency.

[Lynx]

Correction, I asked you to prove it with regards to points raised, and not as a general rule..


all the best..

Well, whether or not Islam is the middle path in all those things listed is irrelevant. the point of the fallacy, and the reason why it's a fallacy , is that just because something always lies in the middle path does not imply that it is a good thing.

..consider also that the lines drawn around the 'middle way' are apparently arbitrary. a lot of people would think islam is more on the extreme side based on their own principles and beliefs (pygo for instance). Pointless discussion unless you're already Muslim and think that Islam is the middle way.

[جوري]

Well, whether or not Islam is the middle path in all those things listed is irrelevant. the point of the fallacy, and the reason why it's a fallacy , is that just because something always lies in the middle path does not imply that it is a good thing.

I can't consider something fallacious by title rather than details, and as stated previous to avoid going in circles, I'll be waiting for you to discredit things described in the posts rather than dismissing the whole because someone used a title that you feel is erroneous!

..consider also that the lines drawn around the 'middle way' are apparently arbitrary. a lot of people would think islam is more on the extreme side based on their own principles and beliefs (pygo for instance). Pointless discussion unless you're already Muslim and think that Islam is the middle way.

Irrelevant (see above)

all the best

[Lynx]

I can't consider something fallacious by title rather than details, and as stated previous to avoid going in circles, I'll be waiting for you to discredit things described in the posts rather than dismissing the whole because someone used a title that you feel is erroneous!



all the best

the op is trying to say islam is the middle way in all aspects and that this is a good thing. my point was that being the middle way of everything does not necessarily mean it's a good thing for islam (in fact it leads to a fallacious conclusion). as for the question of whether Islam is actually in the middle way, one would have to show the borderlines between middle and extreme and so far they're arbitrarily drawn.

[جوري]

the op is trying to say islam is the middle way in all aspects and that this is a good thing. my point was that being the middle way of everything does not necessarily mean it's a good thing for islam (in fact it leads to a fallacious conclusion).

I understood the point the first time around, we are merely going in circles for your lack of desire to address that which you originally mocked under a specific title!

as for the question of whether Islam is actually in the middle way, one would have to show the borderlines between middle and extreme and so far they're arbitrarily drawn.

Who said they are arbitrarily drawn?

guess creating uncertainty is really what atheism is all about..

[Lynx]

I understood the point the first time around, we are merely going in circles for your lack of desire to address that which you originally mocked under a specific title!


Who said they are arbitrarily drawn?

guess creating uncertainty is really what atheism is all about..

they're arbitrary because there's no objective criteria to determine whether or not a language is a 'middle' language. the OP just invented that term; the section about science and religion doesn't even say anything about being in the middle of anything; islam might have the middle understanding of jesus in comparison to judaism and christianity but it has the extreme understanding of muhammad since some people say he was an evil person while others say he was an infallible prophet of god so the middle path is those people who say he was an enlightened teacher. etc. Point is no matter what you point out i'll almost always be able to shift around the 'extremes' since there is no objective definition of anything extreme. Again, as others have pointed in the thread, one can make the argument that islam is one of the most extremely dogmatic & conservative ideologies out there; it ALL depends on subjective perspectives.

That's why the discussion is pointless especially considering that it's not necessarily a good thing that islam is the middle way.

And I certainly think certainty is the most important thing which is what the OP is lacking.

[جوري]

they're arbitrary because there's no objective criteria to determine whether or not a language is a 'middle' language. the OP just invented that term; the section about science and religion doesn't even say anything about being in the middle of anything; islam might have the middle understanding of jesus in comparison to judaism and christianity but it has the extreme understanding of muhammad since some people say he was an evil person while others say he was an infallible prophet of god so the middle path is those people who say he was an enlightened teacher. etc. Point is no matter what you point out i'll almost always be able to shift around the 'extremes' since there is no objective definition of anything extreme. Again, as others have pointed in the thread, one can make the argument that islam is one of the most extremely dogmatic & conservative ideologies out there; it ALL depends on subjective perspectives.

That's why the discussion is pointless especially considering that it's not necessarily a good thing that islam is the middle way.

And I certainly think certainty is the most important thing which is what the OP is lacking.

I think redundancy is something you are definitely not lacking, and I have known you so far to address almost every other topic with that same smugness that draws such deep satisfaction out of overly simplistic conclusion. I admit that the topic isn't as deep as it should be and it quite appropriate for a forum. But you have positively no scholarly vision of why certain things are perceived as they are. Like language for example being the middle of the way as it certainly can be measured by other means we are merely to look at the success of Shintoism or even Judaism from the linguistic point of view alone as a measure of achievement of those particular religions and time and again we'll see why Arabic as a divine choice wasn't only the correct choice middle of the way choice but the super natural eloquence still to this day and will continue to be spellbinding to anyone who seeks Islam as a religion and a way of life.

All the best

[Lynx]

I think redundancy is something you are definitely not lacking, and I have known you so far to address almost every other topic with that same smugness that draws such deep satisfaction out of overly simplistic conclusion. I admit that the topic isn't as deep as it should be and it quite appropriate for a forum. But you have positively no scholarly vision of why certain things are perceived as they are. Like language for example being the middle of the way as it certainly can be measured by other means we are merely to look at the success of Shintoism or even Judaism from the linguistic point of view alone as a measure of achievement of those particular religions and time and again we'll see why Arabic as a divine choice wasn't only the correct choice middle of the way choice but the super natural eloquence still to this day and will continue to be spellbinding to anyone who seeks Islam as a religion and a way of life.

All the best

if i can point out a fundamental problem in someone's viewpoint with only a 'simplistic' conclusion then why shouldn't i? if one can point out the problem in a worldview or an argument in one line then ought not to go beyond that. the OP deserves nothing more than anything I've said. it's not just NOT deep, it's taking the wrong view of things. anyway, i don't know if arabic is the middle way in terms of language. maybe it is but so what? everything else that is perceived as the middle of extremes can be debated including the things mentioned the OP and i pointed out some in my previous post. as for your comment about arabic: i don't speak arabic so i don't know if the Quran read in arabic has any 'super natural eloquence' but I doubt you're right considering the many non-muslim Arabs. either every non muslim who has heard the quran in arabic and understood it is pretending not to nice its divine origins OR muslims exaggerate. i think the latter is more convincing but this is treading away from the OP.

[جوري]

if i can point out a fundamental problem in someone's viewpoint with only a 'simplistic' conclusion then why shouldn't i?

The problem is when you mistake being a simpleton for being overly simplistic.. you are one who simply likes to argue for the sake of argument and not because you have something truly of substance to impart!

if one can point out the problem in a worldview or an argument in one line then ought not to go beyond that.

See above!

the OP deserves nothing more than anything I've said

Whether the OP said something profound or superficial unfortunately has no bearing whatsoever on your understanding or your point of view.. you often approach every topic with the same irrelevant drivel!

. it's not just NOT deep,

Neither are you.. if you don't enjoy a thread you make sure that everyone finds it as distasteful as you, and not through meaningful dialogue-No-- never, but through caustic remarks and useless vitriolic yet incredibly superficial critique!

. anyway, i don't know if arabic is the middle way in terms of language. maybe it is but so what?

you are right, you don't know and that is specifically why you should stay out of topics that are clearly over your head!

everything else that is perceived as the middle of extremes can be debated including the things mentioned the OP and i pointed out some in my previous post.

Yeah, you do that!

as for your comment about arabic: i don't speak arabic so i don't know if the Quran read in arabic has any 'super natural eloquence' but I doubt you're right considering the many non-muslim Arabs.

actually non-Muslim Arabs only makeup around 10% of the Arabic world, and no they don't listen to the Quran..

here is a testimony of one Lebanese Arab christian who later became Muslim after amongst many other things learning the Quran:

Submitted by HOW I CAME TO ISLAM
on Fri Sep. 12, 2008 1:03 PM PDT.
I was born and raised in a typical middle-class Lebanese Catholic family in Beirut, Lebanon. Two years into the war I was forced to leave, and completed high school in England. Then I went to Columbia College in New York. After my BA I went back to Lebanon and taught at my old school. Two years later I left Lebanon again, this time of my own free will, although it was a more wrenching separation than the first. I left behind my war-torn country and made for my new land of opportunities. I was demoralized, and spiritually at a complete impass. With my uncle's support I went back to graduate studies at Columbia. This is the brief story of my conversion to Islam while there.
While in Lebanon I had come to realize that I was a nominal Christian who did not really live according to what he knew were the norms of his faith. I decided than whenever the chance came I would try my best to live according to my idea of Christian standards for one year, no matter the cost. I took this challenge while at Columbia. A graduate student's life is blessed with the leisure necessary for spiritual and intellectual exploration. In the process I read and meditated abundantly, and I prayed earnestly for dear guidance. My time was shared literally between the church and the library, and I gradually got rid of all that stood in the way of my experiment, especially social attachments or activities that threatened to steal my time and concentration. I only left campus to visit my mother every now and then.
Certain meetings and experiences had set me on the road of inquiry about Islam. During a scholarship year spent in Paris I had bought a complete set of tapes of the holy Qur'an. Back in New York I listened to its recitation for the first time, as I read simultaneously the translation, drinking in its awesome beauty. I paid particular attention to the passages that concerned Christians. I felt an inviting familiarity to it because undoubtedly the One I addressed in my prayers was the same One that spoke this speech, even as I squirmed at some of the "verses of threat". After some time I knew that this was my path, since I had become convinced of the heavenly origin of the Qur'an.
I was reading many books at the same time. Two of them were Martin Lings' "Life of Muhammad" and Fariduddin Attar's "Book of Secrets" (Persian "Asrar-Nama", in French translation). I found extremely inspiring Lings' account of Shaykh Ahmad `Alawi's life in his book "A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century." I did not finish the latter before I became a Muslim; but I am jumping ahead. At any rate, it now seemed my previous experience of religion had been like learning the alphabet in comparison, even my early morning and late night Bible readings and my past studies in the original Latin of Saint Augustine, who had once towered in my life as a spiritual giant.
I began to long almost physically for a kind of prayer closer to the Islamic way, which to me held promises of great spiritual fulfillment, although I had grown completely dependent on certain spiritual habits -- particularly communion and prayer -- and could hardly do without them. And yet I had unmistakable signs pointing me in a further direction. One of them I considered almost a slap in the face in its frankness: when I told my local priest about the attraction I felt towards Islam he responded as he should, but then closed his talk with the words: allahu akbar. "Allahu akbar"? An Italian-American priest?!
I went to two New York mosques but the imams there wanted to talk about the Bible or about the Middle East conflict, I suppose to make polite conversation with me. I realized they did not necessarily see what drove me to them and yet I did not find an avenue where I would pluck up the courage to declare my intention. Then I would go home and tell myself: Another day has passed, and you are still not Muslim. Finally I went to the Muslim student group at Columbia and announced my intention, and declared the two shahada: The Arabic formula that consists in saying "I bear witness that there is no god but Allah" -- the Arabic name for God -- "and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Prophet." They taught me ablution and salat (prayer), and I gained a dear friend among them. Those days are marked in my life with letters of light.
Another close friend of mine played a role in this conversion. This devout American Christian friend had entered Islam years before me. At the time I felt in my silly pride that it was wrong for an American to enter into the religion of the Arabs and for me, an Arab, to stand like a mule in complete ignorance of it. It had a great effect on me from both sides: the cultural one and the spiritual, because he was -- is -- an honest and upright person whose major move meant a great deal to me.
I had also come to realize that my early education in Lebanon had carefully sheltered me from Islam, even though I lived in a mixed neighborhood in the middle of Beirut. I went to my father's and grandfather's Jesuit school. The following incident is proof that there is no turning away of Allah's gift when He decides to give it. One year, when I was 12, a strange religious education teacher gave us as an assignment the task of learning the Fatiha -- the first chapter of the Qur'an -- by heart. I went home and did, and it stayed with me all my life. After parents complained he was fired -- "we do not send our children to a Christian school in order for them to learn the religion of Muslims" -- but the seed had been sown, right there in the staunch Christian heartland, inside its prize school. Now here I was in the United States, knocking at the door of the religion of the Prophet, peace be upon him!
Days after I took shahada I met my teacher and the light on my path, Shaykh Hisham Kabbani of Tripoli, after which I met his own teacher, Shaykh Nazim al-Haqqani of Cyprus. May Allah bless and grant them long life. Through them, after some years, my mother also took shahada and I hope and pray every day that my two brothers and stepfather will soon follow in Allah's immense generosity. Allah's blessings and peace on the Prophet, his Family, his Companions, and all Prophets.
Fouad Haddad

http://motherjones.com/politics/2002/05/stealth-crusade
Either way, whether or not they are familiar with the Quran, isn't the correct method in determining whether or not the Quran has super-natural eloquence.. do you see why replying back to you is no more than a waste of time.. that is how invested you are in learning something or accepting that someone else even through simple means knows more than you!

either every non muslim who has heard the quran in arabic and understood it is pretending not to nice its divine origins OR muslims exaggerate. i think the latter is more convincing but this is treading away from the OP.

see above.. and I recommend you stay out of a topic that you neither want to address head to head or have the common decency to allow others to enjoy for what it is!

all the best!

[Lynx]

The problem is when you mistake being a simpleton for being overly simplistic.. you are one who simply likes to argue for the sake of argument and not because you have something truly of substance to impart!
See above!Whether the OP said something profound or superficial unfortunately has no bearing whatsoever on your understanding or your point of view.. you often approach every topic with the same irrelevant drivel!

Neither are you.. if you don't enjoy a thread you make sure that everyone finds it as distasteful as you, and not through meaningful dialogue-No-- never, but through caustic remarks and useless vitriolic yet incredibly superficial critique!

you are right, you don't know and that is specifically why you should stay out of topics that are clearly over your head!Yeah, you do that!

actually non-Muslim Arabs only makeup around 10% of the Arabic world, and no they don't listen to the Quran..

here is a testimony of one Lebanese Arab christian who later became Muslim after amongst many other things learning the Quran:

Submitted by HOW I CAME TO ISLAM
on Fri Sep. 12, 2008 1:03 PM PDT.
I was born and raised in a typical middle-class Lebanese Catholic family in Beirut, Lebanon. Two years into the war I was forced to leave, and completed high school in England. Then I went to Columbia College in New York. After my BA I went back to Lebanon and taught at my old school. Two years later I left Lebanon again, this time of my own free will, although it was a more wrenching separation than the first. I left behind my war-torn country and made for my new land of opportunities. I was demoralized, and spiritually at a complete impass. With my uncle's support I went back to graduate studies at Columbia. This is the brief story of my conversion to Islam while there.
While in Lebanon I had come to realize that I was a nominal Christian who did not really live according to what he knew were the norms of his faith. I decided than whenever the chance came I would try my best to live according to my idea of Christian standards for one year, no matter the cost. I took this challenge while at Columbia. A graduate student's life is blessed with the leisure necessary for spiritual and intellectual exploration. In the process I read and meditated abundantly, and I prayed earnestly for dear guidance. My time was shared literally between the church and the library, and I gradually got rid of all that stood in the way of my experiment, especially social attachments or activities that threatened to steal my time and concentration. I only left campus to visit my mother every now and then.
Certain meetings and experiences had set me on the road of inquiry about Islam. During a scholarship year spent in Paris I had bought a complete set of tapes of the holy Qur'an. Back in New York I listened to its recitation for the first time, as I read simultaneously the translation, drinking in its awesome beauty. I paid particular attention to the passages that concerned Christians. I felt an inviting familiarity to it because undoubtedly the One I addressed in my prayers was the same One that spoke this speech, even as I squirmed at some of the "verses of threat". After some time I knew that this was my path, since I had become convinced of the heavenly origin of the Qur'an.
I was reading many books at the same time. Two of them were Martin Lings' "Life of Muhammad" and Fariduddin Attar's "Book of Secrets" (Persian "Asrar-Nama", in French translation). I found extremely inspiring Lings' account of Shaykh Ahmad `Alawi's life in his book "A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century." I did not finish the latter before I became a Muslim; but I am jumping ahead. At any rate, it now seemed my previous experience of religion had been like learning the alphabet in comparison, even my early morning and late night Bible readings and my past studies in the original Latin of Saint Augustine, who had once towered in my life as a spiritual giant.
I began to long almost physically for a kind of prayer closer to the Islamic way, which to me held promises of great spiritual fulfillment, although I had grown completely dependent on certain spiritual habits -- particularly communion and prayer -- and could hardly do without them. And yet I had unmistakable signs pointing me in a further direction. One of them I considered almost a slap in the face in its frankness: when I told my local priest about the attraction I felt towards Islam he responded as he should, but then closed his talk with the words: allahu akbar. "Allahu akbar"? An Italian-American priest?!
I went to two New York mosques but the imams there wanted to talk about the Bible or about the Middle East conflict, I suppose to make polite conversation with me. I realized they did not necessarily see what drove me to them and yet I did not find an avenue where I would pluck up the courage to declare my intention. Then I would go home and tell myself: Another day has passed, and you are still not Muslim. Finally I went to the Muslim student group at Columbia and announced my intention, and declared the two shahada: The Arabic formula that consists in saying "I bear witness that there is no god but Allah" -- the Arabic name for God -- "and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Prophet." They taught me ablution and salat (prayer), and I gained a dear friend among them. Those days are marked in my life with letters of light.
Another close friend of mine played a role in this conversion. This devout American Christian friend had entered Islam years before me. At the time I felt in my silly pride that it was wrong for an American to enter into the religion of the Arabs and for me, an Arab, to stand like a mule in complete ignorance of it. It had a great effect on me from both sides: the cultural one and the spiritual, because he was -- is -- an honest and upright person whose major move meant a great deal to me.
I had also come to realize that my early education in Lebanon had carefully sheltered me from Islam, even though I lived in a mixed neighborhood in the middle of Beirut. I went to my father's and grandfather's Jesuit school. The following incident is proof that there is no turning away of Allah's gift when He decides to give it. One year, when I was 12, a strange religious education teacher gave us as an assignment the task of learning the Fatiha -- the first chapter of the Qur'an -- by heart. I went home and did, and it stayed with me all my life. After parents complained he was fired -- "we do not send our children to a Christian school in order for them to learn the religion of Muslims" -- but the seed had been sown, right there in the staunch Christian heartland, inside its prize school. Now here I was in the United States, knocking at the door of the religion of the Prophet, peace be upon him!
Days after I took shahada I met my teacher and the light on my path, Shaykh Hisham Kabbani of Tripoli, after which I met his own teacher, Shaykh Nazim al-Haqqani of Cyprus. May Allah bless and grant them long life. Through them, after some years, my mother also took shahada and I hope and pray every day that my two brothers and stepfather will soon follow in Allah's immense generosity. Allah's blessings and peace on the Prophet, his Family, his Companions, and all Prophets.
Fouad Haddad

http://motherjones.com/politics/2002/05/stealth-crusade
Either way, whether or not they are familiar with the Quran, isn't the correct method in determining whether or not the Quran has super-natural eloquence.. do you see why replying back to you is no more than a waste of time.. that is how invested you are in learning something or accepting that someone else even through simple means knows more than you!
see above.. and I recommend you stay out of a topic that you neither want to address head to head or have the common decency to allow others to enjoy for what it is!

all the best!

i did attack the op head on. i don't know what was unclear. anyway, your story is interesting though it's anecdotal and doesn't refute anything i've said. this is going beyond the OP like i mentioned so that's a wrap.

[Lynx]

double post.

[جوري]

i did attack the op head on. i don't know what was unclear. anyway, your story is interesting though it's anecdotal and doesn't refute anything i've said. this is going beyond the OP like i mentioned so that's a wrap.

you've written nothing that merits a refutation!-- & try to get your laughs from comedy central so we are not left questioning your mental status - amongst other things!

all the best!