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sister herb
06-18-2009, 03:39 AM
Could you tell me why the Palestinians have to recognize the zionist state's right to exist on Arab Palestinian Land ?
We Will Return
June 17, 2009

- Is it because God gave his chosen people my land ,even though most of the citizen of the zionist state are not even from the region ?
- Is it because the Arab Palestinians have to pay for Hitler and the European's ruthlessness ?
- Is it because the zionist state never respected International Law ?
- Or is it because we are Arabs ,our blood,suffering ,dignity etc....do not count ?
No other people in the history of life on this Earth have been asked to do this ,and that's why I am asking .......Why ?


INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW ?

http://wewillreturn.blogspot.com/200...ians-have.html
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جوري
06-18-2009, 03:43 AM
we don't accept them, and generally won't until that big war sis..
I suppose that is what the problem is.. they are hoping this would just go away and the palis dissolve into neighboring states.. but that is not how it will go down..

:w:
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 12:11 PM
Because they should take a more pragmatic approach.
If they want suffering, blockades etc, so be it.
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S_87
06-18-2009, 12:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Because they should take a more pragmatic approach.
If they want suffering, blockades etc, so be it.
:rolleyes:

''give me all your allowance or im gonna kick your .....''
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 12:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
:rolleyes:

''give me all your allowance or im gonna kick your .....''
No, it's more like don't throw bombs and we won't throw ours.
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S_87
06-18-2009, 12:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No, it's more like don't throw bombs and we won't throw ours.
lol sure thats what the bully generally does say when the victim defends itself with a few stones. they bring in the big guys to 'show him his place'
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 12:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
lol sure thats what the bully generally does say when the victim defends itself with a few stones. they bring in the big guys to 'show him his place'
Yes, but as I said the reality is that Israel is there and won't disappear for a long time, so why fight an endless war when you can have peace at least until Isa returns to Earth and smashes the zionists.
And siarel won its share of wars so imho it should be allowed to stay where it is. And it is a democracy, a liberal one.
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S_87
06-18-2009, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, but as I said the reality is that Israel is there and won't disappear for a long time, so why fight an endless war when you can have peace at least until Isa returns to Earth and smashes the zionists.
And siarel won its share of wars so imho it should be allowed to stay where it is. And it is a democracy, a liberal one.
so if it wasnt liberal then thered be a problem?
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 12:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
so if it wasnt liberal then thered be a problem?
There is a problem already, practically guiltless people were expelled by foreigners, but srael has grown into a succesful, liberal, strong and an alltogether lovely state so I want it to stay there.
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There is a problem already, practically guiltless people were expelled by foreigners, but srael has grown into a succesful, liberal, strong and an alltogether lovely state so I want it to stay there.
Ah so the means justify the ends huh? I'll kick you child out of school and have mine take their place so he can grow into a lovely educated person.

Oh and drop the bomb argument WTP.

You and I well know the statistics behind the attacks. Around 60-80 people have been killed by Palestinian rockets throughout Israels entire history.

Israeli tanks, jets, and military has killed thousands of times more.

What's interesting is that you've revealed your true reason for support of Israel. Your opposition isn't moral, you just like the state.

Guess what? Your neighbors are eyeing your house right now. After they've kicked you out, I hear they're gonna turn it into a lovely residence with fancy furniture and a green lawn.

May Allah guide you..... imsad
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Suomipoika
06-18-2009, 01:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
No other people in the history of life on this Earth have been asked to do this ,and that's why I am asking .......Why ?
A lot of other peoples and nations have had to give their land away because of unfair actions. Finland had to give away Karelia, we got over it, so should you. None of the land we lost is worth the misery trying to get it back would cause to our children.
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S_87
06-18-2009, 01:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There is a problem already, practically guiltless people were expelled by foreigners, but srael has grown into a succesful, liberal, strong and an alltogether lovely state so I want it to stay there.
oh so because its a lovely state its a case of 'too bad' for thsoe practically guiltless people?
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 01:13 PM
salaam

The irony is that Isreal has never accepted the Palestianian state - such as bulidng illiegal settlements on land that was meant to make palestine is definitly stupid and is clearly hindering the peace process. Its also odd that america kept Vetoing for Isreal. Pity realy.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
oh so because its a lovely state its a case of 'too bad' for thsoe practically guiltless people?
Thy'renot entirely gultless, they were actually suffering from the same paranoi many Europeans are today. They were afraid Jews will take over, there was violence and the grand mufti of jerusalem even wanted Germany to construct a concentartion camp for Jews in Palestine.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

The irony is that Isreal has never accepted the Palestianian state - such as bulidng illiegal settlements on land that was meant to make palestine is definitly stupid and is clearly hindering the peace process. Its also odd that america kept Vetoing for Isreal. Pity realy.
I am against the settlements, not only do I think all construction should be cease, i believe tehy should be dismantled the same way they were dismantled in Gaza. Oaba isn't really offering a lot to Muslims.
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 01:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I am against the settlements, not only do I think all construction should be cease, i believe tehy should be dismantled the same way they were dismantled in Gaza. Oaba isn't really offering a lot to Muslims.
I agree maybe he should have listened to the international commuinty more - if amerixca did that - there actually would have been peace in the region.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 01:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
I agree maybe he should have listened to the international commuinty more - if amerixca did that - there actually would have been peace in the region.
Both parties need to make sacrifices.
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Both parties need to make sacrifices.
maybe - but dont you think the palestinains have made enough - they only need 3 regions

1 - Gaza
2 - west bank
3 - east Jerusalem as the capital

The thing is that the palestinians have to do is stop blowing themselves and firing the rockets which do nothing what so ever - they actually give Isreal the reasons to invade.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
maybe - but dont you think the palestinains have made enough - they only need 3 regions

1 - Gaza
2 - west bank
3 - east Jerusalem as the capital

The thing is that the palestinians have to do is stop blowing themselves and firing the rockets which do nothing what so ever - they actually give Isreal the reasons to invade.
East Jerusalem is the greatest problem-
Exactly, I've beens aying that for years. Israelis are unwilling to give up west bank ebcause they are afraid to have another Gaza, with Hamas government and rockets and all.
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 01:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
East Jerusalem is the greatest problem-
Exactly, I've beens aying that for years. Israelis are unwilling to give up west bank ebcause they are afraid to have another Gaza, with Hamas government and rockets and all.
I agree - the right wing governmnet doesnt help. we'll just have to see what happens.
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 01:53 PM
WTP please respond to my previous post.
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sister herb
06-18-2009, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Both parties need to make sacrifices.
I agree that both parties should make sacrifices. But should Palestinians just accept as sacrifice the ethnic cleanising what has continued last 61 years and what is continue every day - and continue also today?

Should Palestinians accept as sacrifice to give 78% of their historical homeland for zionists?

Should Palestinians accept as sacrifice illegal settlements to their own land? Zionists are calling them as "natural growth", not new settlements what they are building to confiscated lands of the West Bank and the East Jerusalem.

Should Palestinians accept as sacrifice that zionists will controll all of their borders to outside world for sake of security of zionists? What about security of Palestinians? Is it less important than the security of zionists?

Zionists have talked about authonomy of Palestine, not independency of Palestine. One more sacrifice what only Palestinians should accept? What if zionists would make sacrifice too and accept that they "state" too is not independent but just authonomy under some international/foreign ruler without own foreing policy and army?

Should just Palestinians accept as sacrifice that zionists are free to destroy they mosques and churches and cemeteries like they have done last 61 years?

If Palestinians should make all of these sacrifices for "peace", what kind of sacrifices zionists are ready to make then? I think nothing. What about kind of sacrifise that they will start to follow international laws as Geneva conventions? I would be surprises if they would make even one sacrifice at all.

Just as I would be just surprising, very surprising if they at some day will keep they promisings they have given during years. Who knows that they false promisings for peace talks are not similar than every others - already eaten.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
I agree that both parties should make sacrifices. But should Palestinians just accept as sacrifice the ethnic cleanising what has continued last 61 years and what is continue every day - and continue also today?

Should Palestinians accept as sacrifice to give 78% of their historical homeland for zionists?

Should Palestinians accept as sacrifice illegal settlements to their own land? Zionists are calling them as "natural growth", not new settlements what they are building to confiscated lands of the West Bank and the East Jerusalem.

Should Palestinians accept as sacrifice that zionists will controll all of their borders to outside world for sake of security of zionists? What about security of Palestinians? Is it less important than the security of zionists?

Zionists have talked about authonomy of Palestine, not independency of Palestine. One more sacrifice what only Palestinians should accept? What if zionists would make sacrifice too and accept that they "state" too is not independent but just authonomy under some international/foreign ruler without own foreing policy and army?

Should just Palestinians accept as sacrifice that zionists are free to destroy they mosques and churches and cemeteries like they have done last 61 years?

If Palestinians should make all of these sacrifices for "peace", what kind of sacrifices zionists are ready to make then? I think nothing. What about kind of sacrifise that they will start to follow international laws as Geneva conventions? I would be surprises if they would make even one sacrifice at all.

Just as I would be just surprising, very surprising if they at some day will keep they promisings they have given during years. Who knows that they false promisings for peace talks are not similar than every others - already eaten.
They shouls accept two states both free of any settlements and checkpoints.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Ah so the means justify the ends huh? I'll kick you child out of school and have mine take their place so he can grow into a lovely educated person.

Oh and drop the bomb argument WTP.

You and I well know the statistics behind the attacks. Around 60-80 people have been killed by Palestinian rockets throughout Israels entire history.

Israeli tanks, jets, and military has killed thousands of times more.

What's interesting is that you've revealed your true reason for support of Israel. Your opposition isn't moral, you just like the state.

Guess what? Your neighbors are eyeing your house right now. After they've kicked you out, I hear they're gonna turn it into a lovely residence with fancy furniture and a green lawn.

May Allah guide you..... imsad
Yeah its bad, not really moral, but we can't change it, two states is the least of all evils.
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 02:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yeah its bad, not really moral, but we can't change it, two states is the least of all evils.
I'd say exposing the true facts and history of Israel without making it seem rosy would help the world get a spine and try to make a one state solution.

You know... like how it was for thousands of years before Jews suddenly discovered their destiny through the aid of post-WW2 pity (spits on ground).
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 02:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I'd say exposing the true facts and history of Israel without making it seem rosy would help the world get a spine and try to make a one state solution.

You know... like how it was for thousands of years before Jews suddenly discovered their destiny through the aid of post-WW2 pity (spits on ground).
It's not as one sided as Palis claim either.
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's not as one sided as Palis claim either.
I'm not playing a game of he said this or they said that. Israel's military might and history of UN violations testify to their respect for their neighbors.

You yourself just admitted that it isn't moral to force out your neighbors. History shows that they coexisted for thousands of years.

But it isn't one side right? Sometimes I just don't understand people who can't admit that some issues might just actually be black and white. Always with the, its not as it seems contrarian attitude. Oh and I'm not speaking for the Palis, I'm speaking for what's right.
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 02:31 PM
salaam

Its got some grey - both parties have made mistakes - but Isreal takes the cake - That doesnt mean that Palestianians havent done bad (which they have) - just not as bad as Isreal.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
I'm not playing a game of he said this or they said that. Israel's military might and history of UN violations testify to their respect for their neighbors.

You yourself just admitted that it isn't moral to force out your neighbors. History shows that they coexisted for thousands of years.

But it isn't one side right? Sometimes I just don't understand people who can't admit that some issues might just actually be black and white. Always with the, its not as it seems contrarian attitude. Oh and I'm not speaking for the Palis, I'm speaking for what's right.
2 state solution is right, if possible 1947 borders, but I guess it's not.
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 02:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
2 state solution is right, if possible 1947 borders, but I guess it's not.
lol - that would be great - but even 1967 borders might be a problem.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
lol - that would be great - but even 1967 borders might be a problem.
I know, Israelis won't give up their settlements, let alone East Jerusalem.
Hopefully Netanyahu will do bad economically and the left will return.
And anyway, it's entirely Egypt, Jordan, Syria's fault that Palis have gone from 1947 to what they have now, perhaps thouse countries should do something as well.
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 02:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
2 state solution is right, if possible 1947 borders, but I guess it's not.
Why give up on the one state solution? It is because of our forgiving attitude towards the Israeli's that the one state solution is out of the question. They think they can get away with anything.

Should we put out foot down together, disarm their more than 200 nukes they illegally developed, and return what belongs to their owners, peace would come eventually.

Instead of forcing a two state solution which will not ease resentment among the Palestinians for being forced out then forced to accept their conquerers as neighbors. Terrorists will still have ammo.
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I know, Israelis won't give up their settlements, let alone East Jerusalem.
Hopefully Netanyahu will do bad economically and the left will return.
And anyway, it's entirely Egypt, Jordan, Syria's fault that Palis have gone from 1947 to what they have now, perhaps thouse countries should do something as well.
hopefully.

All the countries have to help out around the two countries.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Why give up on the one state solution? It is because of our forgiving attitude towards the Israeli's that the one state solution is out of the question. They think they can get away with anything.

Should we put out foot down together, disarm their more than 200 nukes they illegally developed, and return what belongs to their owners, peace would come eventually.

Instead of forcing a two state solution which will not ease resentment among the Palestinians for being forced out then forced to accept their conquerers as neighbors. Terrorists will still have ammo.
Why? Because pragmatics works and non-viable ideology doesn't.
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Why? Because pragmatics works and non-viable ideology doesn't.
If more people adopt this view of yours, yes.

But if more people adopt my view, then it is certainly viable.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
If more people adopt this view of yours, yes.

But if more people adopt my view, then it is certainly viable.
Yes, but considered the likelihood of both. Heck, Palis can't even get their Arab borthers to stand for them, they need swedish hippies!
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, but considered the likelihood of both. Heck, Palis can't even get their Arab borthers to stand for them, they need swedish hippies!
The arab public is with them. The arab governments are the ones who refuse to help.
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 02:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
The arab public is with them. The arab governments are the ones who refuse to help.

maybe thats because they need america to stay in power.......just like Isreal.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
The arab public is with them. The arab governments are the ones who refuse to help.
Most arab nations are democracies how come the people never elect an openly anti-Israeli party?
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Zafran
06-18-2009, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Most arab nations are democracies how come the people never elect an openly anti-Israeli party?
what????
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Most arab nations are democracies how come the people never elect an openly anti-Israeli party?
America is a democracy, how come we elected people like Bush (twice) and Nixon? Yet now their names are infamous.

BTW arab democracies are a sham (see Iran).
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Clover
06-18-2009, 03:06 PM
I guess the only thing I can say is I am glad their is a Jewish state for Jews, but not glad that they had to evict people out of their land to move in. I would rather have a neighbor who is different, then be rude and kick him out of my neighborhood cause he is different.

I hope that maybe Israel's people, and the people they evicted, which I guess you'd call Palestinians, but then could you call the Israelis Palestinians since they live in the area? I don't know.

If I could have my way, I'd let the Jews have a state where Jews/Muslims/Christians/Whoever lived equally, and no one had to fight, but sadly, the world isn't perfect, and I do not control it. I guess the only thing to do is hope that peace comes. If peace means one side has to be Annihilated, then I do not know if peace is such a good idea.
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AntiKarateKid
06-18-2009, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I guess the only thing I can say is I am glad their is a Jewish state for Jews, but not glad that they had to evict people out of their land to move in. I would rather have a neighbor who is different, then be rude and kick him out of my neighborhood cause he is different.

I hope that maybe Israel's people, and the people they evicted, which I guess you'd call Palestinians, but then could you call the Israelis Palestinians since they live in the area? I don't know.

If I could have my way, I'd let the Jews have a state where Jews/Muslims/Christians/Whoever lived equally, and no one had to fight, but sadly, the world isn't perfect, and I do not control it. I guess the only thing to do is hope that peace comes. If peace means one side has to be Annihilated, then I do not know if peace is such a good idea.

Why the hell does a religious group NEED their own state? Face it, because you pitied them because of the holocaust.

What about all the other races who suffered genocides? Lets give them a state too! Let's give the persecuted Sikhs in India their own state! The Muslims who suffered during the Bosnian genocides their own state! THe Hutu and Tutsis in Darfur should get their own states! You live in Tennessee? Give that land back to the native Americans who were killed for it.

Guess what clover, there was a place where they all coexisted. That was pre-Israeli Jerusalem. For thousands of years Jews Muslims and Christians were there. Moreover f you want them to have a state, why Jerusalem? Why not South America? Africa? Your answer should be interesting.
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GreyKode
06-18-2009, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I know, Israelis won't give up their settlements, let alone East Jerusalem.
Hopefully Netanyahu will do bad economically and the left will return.
And anyway, it's entirely Egypt, Jordan, Syria's fault that Palis have gone from 1947 to what they have now, perhaps thouse countries should do something as well.
How is it those countries fault? Because they didn't let palestinians in so they won't lose their identity as palestinians so as to strengthen the claim by the filthy jews and the americans that there is no such thing as palestine and no such thing throughout history as palestinians.

"IT's Entaaaiiireeely their fault" you bigot. That's your analysis.
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TestData
06-18-2009, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Most arab nations are democracies how come the people never elect an openly anti-Israeli party?
Are you for real?

Can you name any? and which of these arab democracies have formal ties with israel?
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
How is it those countries fault? Because they didn't let palestinians in so they won't lose their identity as palestinians so as to strengthen the claim by the filthy jews and the americans that there is no such thing as palestine and no such thing throughout history as palestinians.

"IT's Entaaaiiireeely their fault" you bigot. That's your analysis.
actually, those countries weren't fighting Isrel so Palis could ahve their state, they wanted the alnd for themselves.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2009, 04:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TestData
Are you for real?

Can you name any? and which of these arab democracies have formal ties with israel?
they were willing to fight Israel and now when Palis have the least land and need help most, they sit back.
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aamirsaab
06-18-2009, 04:02 PM
:sl:
Ok guys, can we please stick to the topic without resorting to mudslinging/verbal harrasment/aggresive negotiations?
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sister herb
06-18-2009, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
They shouls accept two states both free of any settlements and checkpoints.
I disagree. They both should accept one equal state for everyone free rights in there without any apartheid; just same what is anyones religion, background or political opinion. Only this is called as democracy!

In today in so called "isreal" it really means if you are jew or non-jew. If you are non-jew it means same than last South Africa to be as coloured!

To Suomipoika; comparing Carelia to Palestine is childish: Finland is not and it wasn´t after the Second world war as occupied country. Palestine has been under the most harsh occupion last 61 years.

Lue historiaa Suomipoika!
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sister herb
06-18-2009, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Ok guys, can we please stick to the topic without resorting to mudslinging/verbal harrasment/aggresive negotiations?
:-[

I hope we could... sorry...

- Is it because God gave his chosen people my land ,even though most of the citizen of the zionist state are not even from the region ?
- Is it because the Arab Palestinians have to pay for Hitler and the European's ruthlessness ?
- Is it because the zionist state never respected International Law ?
- Or is it because we are Arabs ,our blood,suffering ,dignity etc....do not count ?
No other people in the history of life on this Earth have been asked to do this ,and that's why I am asking .......Why ?
Members here always go wild by kind of matters.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-18-2009, 08:24 PM
Why should Palestine accept a state that doesn't accept them? Who are the ones being subjugated? The Palestinians are cornered, almost with nothing LEFT. It's like telling a child to give into his local school bully cause he has no chance whatsoever. Honestly, don't expect them to back down and dont expect the palestinians to give Israel flowers for pummeling them.
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sister herb
06-19-2009, 03:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Why should Palestine accept a state that doesn't accept them?
:sl:

Thank you sister; this is a good question. Why just only Palestinians have been asked to accept state of occupiers? Have "the world community" asked zionists to accept state of Palestine or even Palestinians?

:blind:

Nope.
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IslamicRevival
06-19-2009, 04:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Could you tell me why the Palestinians have to recognize the zionist state's right to exist on Arab Palestinian Land ?
Palestinians and all SANE human beings on this planet should not recognise the terrorist nazi esque Israelis. Their brutal regime needs to be toppled and by force. The Arabs who do nothing are a disgrace and so are all the Muslims countries who have the power to help them yet do nothing!

To give you an example of their lying and deliberate attempt to deny the palestinians the right to live, These animals have stalled peace negotiations on many occasions, even on the two state solution recently when the racist coward president stated "Hamas must be demilitarised" for a 2 state solution to work

What sort of pathetic compromise is this?! You can have your F16', high tech equipment and NUKES yet Hamas can have nothing?!! Oh wait..NEITHER CAN IRAN!...EVEN IF IT IS "NUCLEAR ENERGY"! Who on earth are these people!! If i can call them "People"!

These Pigs know exactly what they are doing and they know Hamas will not accept this hence why they put this ludicrous offer to Hamas.

Obama needs to honestly do something drastic and cut ties with these mass murdering evil shaytan Israel! I know this will never happen but all i can say is once Imam Mahdi arrives these creatures will be crushed and Islam will rule the world

My heart goes out to the people in Gaza and West Bank and my heart is full of anger towards the ILLEGAL, IMMORAL NAZI state of Isra-Hell!

To those who defend Israel.You are immoral and blindly believe what you see on Zionist "Sky News", "BBC News" and lets not forget the biggest one of them all..."Fox News" , Yes you have your opinions but you are supporting Killers, Thugs and corrupt Evil people. Wake up and smell the coffee or continue to blindly follow these barbarians!!

P A L E S T I N E Forever!

It had to be said, Rant Over!
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sister herb
06-19-2009, 05:26 AM
:sl:

If Palestinians should accept zionist rule in they country, then all other people in other countries should also accept rule of right-wing extremist in they countries.

You know those people whose are saying "foreigners out", nazists. I don´t see any differenciens with nazism and zionism.
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Whatsthepoint
06-19-2009, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
In today in so called "isreal" it really means if you are jew or non-jew. If you are non-jew it means same than last South Africa to be as coloured!
How can you say that? Israeli Arabs have virtually the same rights as Jews.
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Whatsthepoint
06-19-2009, 10:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

If Palestinians should accept zionist rule in they country, then all other people in other countries should also accept rule of right-wing extremist in they countries.

You know those people whose are saying "foreigners out", nazists. I don´t see any differenciens with nazism and zionism.
there are several branches of zionism and only the extremist radicals call for the explulsion of non-Jews. Virtually non-existent in Israeli poltics, not even Israel Beiteinu advocates it.
Reply

sister herb
06-19-2009, 12:25 PM
:sl:

You lost your time in this kind of discossion dear Whatsthepoint. For zionist jews you are just non-human than I or any other Palestinian. For them we are less than animals.

How people in the other countries think that those over-race people will make justify pease with anyone?
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Whatsthepoint
06-19-2009, 01:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

You lost your time in this kind of discossion dear Whatsthepoint. For zionist jews you are just non-human than I or any other Palestinian. For them we are less than animals.

How people in the other countries think that those over-race people will make justify pease with anyone?
Oh please, you even got Israelis wearing the keffiyeh!
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S_87
06-19-2009, 02:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Oh please, you even got Israelis wearing the keffiyeh!
and that shows what exactly?
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Whatsthepoint
06-19-2009, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
and that shows what exactly?
It shows, along with so many other things, that the majority or a strong minority of the israeli public support the two state solution, better treatment of the Palestinians etc.
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Thinker
06-19-2009, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
Palestinians and all SANE human beings on this planet should not recognise the terrorist nazi esque Israelis. Their brutal regime needs to be toppled and by force. The Arabs who do nothing are a disgrace and so are all the Muslims countries who have the power to help them yet do nothing!

To give you an example of their lying and deliberate attempt to deny the palestinians the right to live, These animals have stalled peace negotiations on many occasions, even on the two state solution recently when the racist coward president stated "Hamas must be demilitarised" for a 2 state solution to work

What sort of pathetic compromise is this?! You can have your F16', high tech equipment and NUKES yet Hamas can have nothing?!! Oh wait..NEITHER CAN IRAN!...EVEN IF IT IS "NUCLEAR ENERGY"! Who on earth are these people!! If i can call them "People"!

These Pigs know exactly what they are doing and they know Hamas will not accept this hence why they put this ludicrous offer to Hamas.

Obama needs to honestly do something drastic and cut ties with these mass murdering evil shaytan Israel! I know this will never happen but all i can say is once Imam Mahdi arrives these creatures will be crushed and Islam will rule the world

My heart goes out to the people in Gaza and West Bank and my heart is full of anger towards the ILLEGAL, IMMORAL NAZI state of Isra-Hell!

To those who defend Israel.You are immoral and blindly believe what you see on Zionist "Sky News", "BBC News" and lets not forget the biggest one of them all..."Fox News" , Yes you have your opinions but you are supporting Killers, Thugs and corrupt Evil people. Wake up and smell the coffee or continue to blindly follow these barbarians!!

P A L E S T I N E Forever!

It had to be said, Rant Over!

Well that’s clarified a few things . . . if the Palestinians hold views like yours, the Israelis are going to want some assurances before they opened the gates and let them out.

In fact I’ll go further and say that rants like this and those delivered by Ahmedinijad help the Israeli’s in their quest for support from the ‘west’.
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S_87
06-19-2009, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It shows, along with so many other things, that the majority or a strong minority of the israeli public support the two state solution, better treatment of the Palestinians etc.
and i was thinking it was more to do with fashion....
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-19-2009, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It shows, along with so many other things, that the majority or a strong minority of the israeli public support the two state solution, better treatment of the Palestinians etc.
Wow, you came up with that just because they wear a Kaffiyah? lol.
Would it mean I support Western interference in Iraq by wearing a shirt and pants? Gimme a break.
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Whatsthepoint
06-19-2009, 02:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
and i was thinking it was more to do with fashion....
Could be, but people wearing it dutring demonstrations against the Gaza incursion certainly weren't wearing t because it looks good.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-19-2009, 02:45 PM
^^It'd be nice if u had said that before <_<
Reply

sister herb
06-19-2009, 03:26 PM
:sl:

These questions are not any jokes, they are life and death question to Palestine. Right now.

I wonder why you sisters and brothers let agnostics mix this discussion all the time.

imsad
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Clover
06-19-2009, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

These questions are not any jokes, they are life and death question to Palestine. Right now.

I wonder why you sisters and brothers let agnostics mix this discussion all the time.

imsad
I wouldn't be mad at the agnostics, in general, I mean, I try not to generalize when I get mad at a person, if its one person in paticular, then report their post, or tell a mod to review the topic.
Reply

sister herb
06-19-2009, 03:52 PM
Peace with you

you put smile to my face. May Allah or who ever great you.

:D
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Thinker
06-19-2009, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

These questions are not any jokes, they are life and death question to Palestine. Right now.

I wonder why you sisters and brothers let agnostics mix this discussion all the time.

imsad
What did the agnostic say that you thought was a "joke?"

Do you want to live in a bubble surrounded only by others who believe exactly as you do? Clearly I (an agnostic) do not want that, I want to hear what others with opposing views think and why they think it so that I might get a balanced view on the world, but that's just me.
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Clover
06-19-2009, 06:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
What did the agnostic say that you thought was a "joke?"

Do you want to live in a bubble surrounded only by others who believe exactly as you do? Clearly I (an agnostic) do not want that, I want to hear what others with opposing views think and why they think it so that I might get a balanced view on the world, but that's just me.
That's kinda why I come to religious forums too.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-19-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Could you tell me why the Palestinians have to recognize the zionist state's right to exist on Arab Palestinian Land ?
We Will Return
June 17, 2009

- Is it because God gave his chosen people my land ,even though most of the citizen of the zionist state are not even from the region ?
- Is it because the Arab Palestinians have to pay for Hitler and the European's ruthlessness ?
- Is it because the zionist state never respected International Law ?
- Or is it because we are Arabs ,our blood,suffering ,dignity etc....do not count ?
No other people in the history of life on this Earth have been asked to do this ,and that's why I am asking .......Why ?


INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW ?

http://wewillreturn.blogspot.com/200...ians-have.html
This is my take on it.

There are over 57 Islamic countries. Why can't you let the Jews have what belongs to them (in the sense this is the place of the Jews according to the Bible) also, many years ago they were banished from Palestine by the Palestinian Muslims. Now it's a reversal.
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ragdollcat1982
06-19-2009, 08:08 PM
I am a supporter of the two state solution . The Jews and Israel are a reality and they are not going anywhere. Both groups have a legitment claim to that land or parts thereof. The Jews through the Biblical promise and the Palestianians for living there for centuries. It seems what is boils down too is Jewish vs Muslim claim to the land. What concearns me the most is the lot of the Christians who live in this area. They are caught up in the middle of all of this, does anyone ever stop to think about them or do they even care. Not all who are killed or maimed are Jews or Muslims, but Christians as well. Often victims of violence on both sides. In the Bible God promised that portion of the land to the Jews and when Sarah cast Hagar and Ishmael out God said that he would not leave Ishmael or his descendants unprovided for. The Arabian peninsula was given to Ishmael and his descendants. The origin of this conflict is in Genesis to Ishamael and Issac.
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GreyKode
06-19-2009, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
many years ago they were banished from Palestine by the Palestinian Muslims. Now it's a reversal.
When exactly did that happen????
The first time the muslims came to the land was when Uamr bin Al khattab(r.a.) came to the land when it was inhabited by chrisitians.
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GreyKode
06-19-2009, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I am a supporter of the two state solution . The Jews and Israel are a reality and they are not going anywhere. Both groups have a legitment claim to that land or parts thereof. The Jews through the Biblical promise and the Palestianians for living there for centuries. It seems what is boils down too is Jewish vs Muslim claim to the land. What concearns me the most is the lot of the Christians who live in this area. They are caught up in the middle of all of this, does anyone ever stop to think about them or do they even care. Not all who are killed or maimed are Jews or Muslims, but Christians as well. Often victims of violence on both sides. In the Bible God promised that portion of the land to the Jews and when Sarah cast Hagar and Ishmael out God said that he would not leave Ishmael or his descendants unprovided for. The Arabian peninsula was given to Ishmael and his descendants. The origin of this conflict is in Genesis to Ishamael and Issac.
Biblically as you claim(although sister Gossamer corrected your false understanding) the jews believe the "Great Israel from Euphrates to the Nile", so should they claim those lands too.
Second, Andalusia a.k.a spain belonged to the muslims at some point in time, does that mean they have the right to take it back now.
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ragdollcat1982
06-19-2009, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Biblically as you claim(although sister Gossamer corrected your false understanding) the jews believe the "Great Israel from Euphrates to the Nile", so should they claim those lands too.
Second, Andalusia a.k.a spain belonged to the muslims at some point in time, does that mean they have the right to take it back now.

The Muslims conqeured Spain, were not original inhabitiants of the area. We could argue this issue until the cows come home. Muslims think they are entitled to that land, Jews think so because of the promise made to Abraham by God. A compromise can be reached to give the Palistinians there own homeland if both parties are willing to work toward it. Call my understanding "false" if you want, it depends on if one is looking at the issue from an Islamic, Jewish or Christian prespective or a secular oneas to what there understanding maybe. Just because I dont look at it from a purely Islamic prespective does not make my understanding false. This conflict between the desecendants of Issac and Ishmael has been going on for many millenia and is a deeper conflict than just the existance of Israel or the conflict with the Palistinians. It really boils down too who did God make his covenant with. Which group of people are right and who is wrong. As a Christian I am not concearned about who has a claim to to the land as much as I am conceanred about the Kingdom of God in the hereafter. However I just wish that people could just learn to get along, sadly it wont happen anytime soon. This whole conflicts orgins can be traced back to Biblcal times.


http://www.gnmagazine.org/wnp/wnp0201/arab.htm


The above article is written from a Christian prespective, so I apoligize in advance to those who may be offended.
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Zafran
06-19-2009, 09:59 PM
salaam

In Islam Ishmeal and Issac pbut are both great men - palestine/Isreal belongs to the riteous not a specific tribe or people.

Furthermore Isreal is a secular state i believe and the Torah is not the law of the state or is it?
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Zafran
06-19-2009, 10:04 PM
Just because I dont look at it from a purely Islamic prespective does not make my understanding false. This conflict between the desecendants of Issac and Ishmael has been going on for many millenia and is a deeper conflict than just the existance of Israel or the conflict with the Palistinians. It really boils down too who did God make his covenant with.
Not true at all - things were not this bad - Jerusalem was preety safe - until the Ottoman empire was defeated.

This whole idea of arabs and Jews fighting for generations is also not true at all. The whole concept of convenat is not debatable to muslims as we accept that Issac and Ishmeal pbut had a convenant with God - if we go even back Adam pbuh had a convenanat with God which includes the WHOLE OF HUMANITY - The narrative doesnt go well.
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Zafran
06-19-2009, 10:11 PM
I also want to add that the Zionist state of Isreal was pushed by athiest thinkers and not traditioanl Jews who actually believed that they were in exile and were not allowed to return.......until the Messiah would come and invite them back - ofcourse the zionist won.
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Thinker
06-20-2009, 09:57 AM
From the view point of an unbiased Anglo Saxon it seems clear to me that the Jews and the Palestinians are the same people pursuing a different religion. They look the same, their culture and customs are very similar and I believe at a point in the past their DNA was compared and proved their common ancestry so the question of who has a right to live there is clear – they both do. The two state solution won’t work not least because the Palestinian state is in two pieces separated by a chunk of land owned by Israel. Pakistan and Bangladesh similarly split from India to form one Muslim state in two places, that failed but unlike Pakistan and Bangladesh Gaza would not be viable as a country. The two state solution could only work if the Palestinians gave up Gaza in exchanged for a chunk of Israeli land alongside the West Bank. That, I suspect, is unlikely to be acceptable to both parties. The other solution is to merge Palestine and Israel into one country and call it Canaan.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 01:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
:sl:

These questions are not any jokes, they are life and death question to Palestine. Right now.

I wonder why you sisters and brothers let agnostics mix this discussion all the time.

imsad
Hey, I heard that!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 01:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
This is my take on it.

There are over 57 Islamic countries. Why can't you let the Jews have what belongs to them (in the sense this is the place of the Jews according to the Bible) also, many years ago they were banished from Palestine by the Palestinian Muslims. Now it's a reversal.
Actually the Jews were rightfully expelled by the romans after they had revolted despite having enjoyed a high level of autonomy. That was 600 years before Muslims conquered the land.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I am a supporter of the two state solution . The Jews and Israel are a reality and they are not going anywhere. Both groups have a legitment claim to that land or parts thereof. The Jews through the Biblical promise and the Palestianians for living there for centuries.
Sacred text should play no role in this. The state of Israel can only draw its legitimacy from Britain and other European powers that promised the land to them and playing a double card on both Jews and Arabs.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 01:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Sacred text should play no role in this. The state of Israel can only derive its legitimacy from Britain and other European powers that promised the land to them and playing a double card on both Jews and Arabs.
Thanks

most people miss the last part when they talk about how modern Isreal got there.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 01:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Thanks

most people miss the last part when they talk about how modern Isreal got there.
Yep. so who's fault is it? Jews, Brits, Arabs?
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Thinker
06-20-2009, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Actually the Jews were rightfully expelled by the romans after they had revolted despite having enjoyed a high level of autonomy. That was 600 years before Muslims conquered the land.
Hmmm – I’m not saying you’re wrong but I am not sure if you are right. Yes they sacked Jerusalem, killed a lot of Jews and enslaved a few more but I am not sure if they expelled the general population. (Stand to be corrected)
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yep. so who's fault is it? Jews, Brits, Arabs?
the Colonial powers.

One of the most influential Zionist thinkers Theodor Herzl
even tried to take the land by promising to pay the Ottoman empires debt but Abdul Hamid the second refused.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 01:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
the Colonial powers.

One of the most influential Zionist thinkers Theodor Herzl
even tried to take the land by promising to pay the Ottoman empires debt but Abdul Hamid the second refused.
what about Arabs who couldn't stand Jwish immigrants, performed violent attacks against them and even asked Hitler to build a camp there?
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 01:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hmmm – I’m not saying you’re wrong but I am not sure if you are right. Yes they sacked Jerusalem, killed a lot of Jews and enslaved a few more but I am not sure if they expelled the general population. (Stand to be corrected)
Apparently you are right so it's I who stands corrected.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-20-2009, 01:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Actually the Jews were rightfully expelled by the romans after they had revolted despite having enjoyed a high level of autonomy. That was 600 years before Muslims conquered the land.
But it was conquered? so now it's been conquered by Jews, and there is resentment. See the irony.
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AntiKarateKid
06-20-2009, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
But it was conquered? so now it's been conquered by Jews, and there is resentment. See the irony.
Been a while since you posted! I was getting worried about the diversity on this forum.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-20-2009, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Been a while since you posted! I was getting worried about the diversity on this forum.
Haha.

I'm here to express what I think is right and wrong, like most of us. :D
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-20-2009, 02:15 PM
Just one question, why didn't the Jews ever get back at the "Germans" for the biggest atrocity ever committed against them?? Why no fuss about that? Not even Muslims committed such an act against the Jews. I smell a different agenda here.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 02:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Just one question, why didn't the Jews ever get back at the "Germans" for the biggest atrocity ever committed against them?? Why no fuss about that? Not even Muslims committed such an act against the Jews. I smell a different agenda here.
Salaam

Because the Zionist were pushing for it for a long time - the whole point was to leave europe (due to the historcial pograms and sacpegoating) and create a jewish state where Jews will not be harrassed anymore - ofcourse - it didnt work

Traditional Jews were also against the whole idea of going back - because they believed they were in exile......until the messiah would come and invite them back to the holy Land.

peace
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Just one question, why didn't the Jews ever get back at the "Germans" for the biggest atrocity ever committed against them?? Why no fuss about that? Not even Muslims committed such an act against the Jews. I smell a different agenda here.
they got billions of dollars from Germany but as Zafran said Zionism is much older than the holocaust.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-20-2009, 02:34 PM
^^I see.

Yes, this is why i brought it up. The practising Jews were and are against it.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 02:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
^^I see.

Yes, this is why i brought it up. The practising Jews were and are against it.
That's not true, only a handful are.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 02:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That's not true, only a handful are.
They were historcally - the zionist movement was heavily backed by atheists - the traditionalists always believed that they had to wait for the messiah to take them there.

Right now there arnt that many traditional Jews left.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 02:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
They were historcally - the zionist movement was heavily backed by atheists - the traditionalists always believed that they had to wait for the messiah to take them there.

Right now there arnt that many traditional Jews left.
Thats true, Herzl was an atheist.
How do you define traditional? Loonies with funny hats and beards represent 10% of the Israeli population.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Thats true, Herzl was an atheist.
How do you define traditional? Loonies with funny hats and beards represent 10% of the Israeli population.
not specfically the 10% but what the the Jews believed in the past - thats what i mean by traditional.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
not specfically the 10% but what the the Jews believed in the past - thats what i mean by traditional.
I'm not sure but I think Jews believe the third temple needs to be built for the messiah to come. Or is it Christians-
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'm not sure but I think Jews believe the third temple needs to be built for the messiah to come. Or is it Christians-
it could be the rightwing evengelicals - They have a lot of beliefs - its one of the reasons they support the state of Isreal.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 03:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
it could be the rightwing evengelicals - They have a lot of beliefs - its one of the reasons they support the state of Isreal.
anyway, I would neither respect not support Isael if it were a theocratic jewish state.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 03:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
anyway, I would neither respect not support Isael if it were a theocratic jewish state.
do you support the idea of a jewish state?
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
do you support the idea of a jewish state?
Predominantly ethnically jewish democratic secular state.
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sister herb
06-20-2009, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Predominantly ethnically jewish democratic secular state.
So called israel is not democracy.

It is same than South Africa was before. I pity those whose really support it.

They are same than nazists.

imsad
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
So called israel is not democracy.

It is same than South Africa was before. I pity those whose really support it.

They are same than nazists.

imsad
It's not the same at all.
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sister herb
06-20-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's not the same at all.
Really? Is here one kind of racism and other kind of rasism?

Other one is politically ok but other one is not?

Tell me more!

:rollseyes
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 05:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Really? Is here one kind of racism and other kind of rasism?

Other one is politically ok but other one is not?

Tell me more!

:rollseyes
Yes there are different forms of racism and moreiver different forms of official racism.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 06:12 PM
It could become a aparthied thats the similarity between south africa.
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ragdollcat1982
06-20-2009, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Sacred text should play no role in this. The state of Israel can only draw its legitimacy from Britain and other European powers that promised the land to them and playing a double card on both Jews and Arabs.

The orgins of this go back further than that friend. The Jews claim they were promised that land in Biblical times long before Islam and the Quran emerged.The Muslims also have their reasons for their claims to the same land. From my prespective both have a right to live there and being pragmatic about the whole thing both groups are going to have to find a way to coexist whether they like it or not. Israel is not going anywhere, the Palestinians are not going anywhere. They can either make the best of a bad sitiation or kill each other, those are really the only 2 choices they have.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 06:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
It could become a aparthied thats the similarity between south africa.
could being the operative word.
Besides we can't judge 61 years absed on the last decade. There were periods of relative peace, fewer check points, no blockades etc.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
The orgins of this go back further than that friend. The Jews claim they were promised that land in Biblical times long before Islam and the Quran emerged.The Muslims also have their reasons for their claims to the same land. From my prespective both have a right to live there and being pragmatic about the whole thing both groups are going to have to find a way to coexist whether they like it or not. Israel is not going anywhere, the Palestinians are not going anywhere. They can either make the best of a bad sitiation or kill each other, those are really the only 2 choices they have.
You do know what the old Jews believed - they believed that they were in exile and were not allowed to come back until the messiah would invite them -thats well known - even the old guard was against returning for that very reason and there are still these Jews around who stick with the old way.

Muslims have little claim on the land - its the palestinians that have the real claim muslim and non muslim.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You do know what the old Jews believed - they believed that they were in exile and were not allowed to come back until the messiah would invite them -thats well known - even the old guard was against returning for that very reason and there are still these Jews around who stick with the old way.

Muslims have little claim on the land - its the palestinians that have the real claim muslim and non muslim.
I know a lot of Jews oppose zionism because it founded a secular rather than a theocratic state.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I know a lot of Jews oppose zionism because it founded a secular rather than a theocratic state.
You should also know that there are Jews who believe that the secular Zionist state should be dismantled.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You should also know that there are Jews who believe that the secular Zionist state should be dismantled.
Yes, a I don't appreciate religios extremists.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, a I don't appreciate religios extremists.
religious extremist?? or people that are actually telling us how against the whole idea of building a state (and a secular one as that) in the name of their religion is wrong.
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sister herb
06-20-2009, 06:24 PM
I knoW jews like that too. Un fortunately Netanyahu is not one of them.

I am still waiting to know what is different kind of racism.

Hopely you haven´t never face any of them as they are all same.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
religious extremist?? or people that are actually telling us how against the whole idea of building a state (and a secular one as that) in the name of their religion is wrong.
It's notin the name of their religion, its in the name of the people.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
I knoW jews like that too. Un fortunately Netanyahu is not one of them.

I am still waiting to know what is different kind of racism.

Hopely you haven´t never face any of them as they are all same.
One racism derives from soem weird concept of racial superiority and the other from experience. Israeli anti-arab racism in regular secualr israelis mostly derives from wars, terrorisms etc.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's notin the name of their religion, its in the name of the people.
It is in the name of their religion - you have people trying to justify the secular state by using the bible (eg evengelicals) and then you have zionist doing the same thing - it brings Judiasim into the whole thing - then the Jews that are against the whole thing are saying that its against Judaism.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
It is in the name of their religion - you have people trying to justify the secular state by using the bible (eg evengelicals) and then you have zionist doing the same thing - it brings Judiasim into - then the Jews that are against the whole thing are saying that its against Judaism.
Zionism is a secualr movement for the most part its not about the messiah or aynthing, merely a homeland for the jewish people.
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ragdollcat1982
06-20-2009, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Zionism is a secualr movement for the most part its not about the messiah or aynthing, merely a homeland for the jewish people.
What a lot of people fail to realize is that Judiasm is more than a religion it is a racial and ethnic identity as well. While one may have a nominal belief in God, they can still consider themselves Jewish.
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Zafran
06-20-2009, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Zionism is a secualr movement for the most part its not about the messiah or aynthing, merely a homeland for the jewish people.
zionist do use the bible and religous arguments - Your right that zionism from start was a secular movment - but ofcourse to win the hearts and minds of the religous people they had to use religoin - where else do you think the argumnet that God gave Jews the land comes from? - I've even seen some zionist trying to use the Quran to justify the state of modern Isreal!
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2009, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
zionist do use the bible and religous arguments - Your right that zionism from start was a secular movment - but ofcourse to win the hearts and minds of the religous people they had to use religoin - where else do you think the argumnet that God gave Jews the land comes from? - I've even seen some zionist trying to use the Quran to justify the state of modern Isreal!
I think the bible (or the Quran) is used as a historical evidence of Jews living there, conquering it etc. And all the rant about promised land is more of a poetic justification.
I'm talking about secular zionism of course.
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GreyKode
06-20-2009, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
What a lot of people fail to realize is that Judiasm is more than a religion it is a racial and ethnic identity as well. While one may have a nominal belief in God, they can still consider themselves Jewish.

So Jews now are a race, scientifically that's impossible.
How can middle eastern sephardic jews of yemen relate to european ashkenazi jews of europe????
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