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Andromeda
06-20-2009, 07:57 AM
I will say now that I am promoting an opinion polling direct democracy website www.1party4all.co.uk which I hope will be of interest to Muslims, on the grounds that direct democracy is Islamic [3:139]

[3:159] It was mercy from GOD that you became compassionate towards them. Had you been harsh and mean-hearted, they would have abandoned you. Therefore, you shall pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them. Once you make a decision, carry out your plan, and trust in GOD. GOD loves those who trust in Him.


My blogs are:

The Voice of Reason at

http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.com which deals with politics, Islam and the BNP

and

The Battlefield of Love at

http://thebattlefieldoflove.blogspot.com which deals with feminism, gender relations and sexuality issues.

so that you may be cognisant with my views and my objective of promoting direct democracy on the grounds that it is Islamic.

My purpose is to promote Islam to those who have yet to see its benefits, and to promote direct democracy to Muslims, on the grounds that it is Islamic.

I am however an atheist who believes that the concept of God is a creation of Man.

I consider myself a Mutazilite who reasons that if God is Truth and Reality, then there is no harm in submitting to Truth and Reality whether one believes in God or not. Through Islam could perhaps atheists and believers be united, for it matters not too much why we do the right things as long as we do the right things.

The Koran is therefore useful as both a philosophical and moral guide, whether or not you believe in God or not.

I am also a fundamentalist libertarian, who believes that good government should be achieved with the minimum of laws, restrictions and taxes and the maximum of liberty and order.

I will say now hat I would like to be able to apply to become Moderator when the time is right, if non-Muslim Moderators are permitted, and hope that I may be judged to conform with the Islamic principles even if I am not myself a convert.
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Joe98
06-20-2009, 08:11 AM
Welcome

Look forward to discussing those issues on this board.

-
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Andromeda
06-20-2009, 11:45 AM
Good to meet you, Joe.

I seem to remember a notice being put up here about the Conway Hall Al Mujahiroun debate on Sharia law and UK law on Wednesday 17th June.

Could you please help me find the thread please?
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muslimah4life
06-20-2009, 07:22 PM
Salaam WELCOME TO LI
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جوري
06-21-2009, 04:30 AM
Islamic law is democratic in the sense of the elected officials being nominated and freely chosen by the people. However that which they govern by is Islamic Jurisprudence..
Which no one here as far as I know can sum up for you in a paragraph or two, since you need to be formally schooled in it as you would the secular law.. so the similarities end there.

The Quran and sunnah aren't reserved to a moral code of conduct, they are in fact meant to govern every aspect of our lives..
It is a complete political/economic/social system/moral system.. it isn't a mere ten commandments upon which men act.. but certainly those are as well included...
but everything from how you conduct your business to how you distribute your inheritance, to judgment for involuntary man-slaughter is well covered therein.

nonetheless since you believe that religion is man/made.. and the American or British or french constitution are as well man made, you'll have no problems that Muslims desire the moral law dictated by their religion.. in the end it really wouldn't make that much of a difference, since non-Muslims aren't governed by sharia'a law.. and since it is all the works of men, then no man's thought is better than the other, hence if a majority desire a certain jurisprudence code, they should be able to govern by it...

the amendments of the laws to fit the times is strictly within the confines of the principal codes --
I hope that clarifies things a bit from the Muslim perspective?


all the best
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Andromeda
06-21-2009, 08:50 AM
Thanks, Gossamer Skye, for that explanation. Are you familiar with the case of Donoghue v Stevenson, the snail in the ginger beer bottle case?

From this case was extracted the Christian principle of Love Thy Neighbour.

I am suggesting that in this way too could Koranic principles (which also incorporate Christian principles) be incorporated into an existing legal system.
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Thinker
06-21-2009, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Andromeda
I hope will be of interest to Muslims, on the grounds that direct democracy is Islamic [3:139]
If you have some Islamic text which purports to suggest that "direct democracy is Islamic" I'd be interested to see it.

3:139 however, in my copy of the Qu'ran. does not speak of democracy . . . .
3:138. Here is a plain statement to men, a guidance and instruction to those who fear Allah.
3:139. So lose not heart, nor fall into despair: For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in Faith.
3:140. If a wound hath touched you, be sure a similar wound hath touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) We give to men and men by turns: that Allah may know those that believe, and that He may take to Himself from your ranks Martyr-witnesses (to Truth). And Allah loveth not those that do wrong.
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Andromeda
06-21-2009, 03:44 PM
Well, Thinker, in my book "consultation" as stated in 3:159 could be interpreted as democracy.

003.159
YUSUFALI: It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee: so pass over (Their faults), and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then, when thou hast Taken a decision put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).
PICKTHAL: It was by the mercy of Allah that thou wast lenient with them (O Muhammad), for if thou hadst been stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from round about thee. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah. Lo! Allah loveth those who put their trust (in Him).
SHAKIR: Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.
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Andromeda
06-21-2009, 03:45 PM
PS Apologies, Thinker, for citing incorrectly the verse number.
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جوري
06-21-2009, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Andromeda
Thanks, Gossamer Skye, for that explanation. Are you familiar with the case of Donoghue v Stevenson, the snail in the ginger beer bottle case?

From this case was extracted the Christian principle of Love Thy Neighbour.

I am suggesting that in this way too could Koranic principles (which also incorporate Christian principles) be incorporated into an existing legal system.

Greetings,

No, I am not familiar with that case (and I am not from England)
Jesus didn't hang around long enough to part with Jurisprudence.. '' The love thy neighbor principal can be just as easily taken down with "I didn't come to bring peace but a sward'' depending on the type of christian you are dealing with.. certainly clemency is part of Islamic jurisprudence, but I do hope that you understand what is meant by a complete political and economic system.
You don't extract one principal and then have it be a part of a secular law.
Islamic law exists in completeness, it is just not being used.. and I doubt a mere extraction is going to be satisfactory to all parties involved...

nonetheless we appreciate your effort and :welcome: you aboard...

all the best
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جوري
06-21-2009, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
If you have some Islamic text which purports to suggest that "direct democracy is Islamic" I'd be interested to see it.

3:139 however, in my copy of the Qu'ran. does not speak of democracy . . . .
3:138. Here is a plain statement to men, a guidance and instruction to those who fear Allah.
3:139. So lose not heart, nor fall into despair: For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in Faith.
3:140. If a wound hath touched you, be sure a similar wound hath touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) We give to men and men by turns: that Allah may know those that believe, and that He may take to Himself from your ranks Martyr-witnesses (to Truth). And Allah loveth not those that do wrong.

what does this particular verse tell you of democracy, oligarchy or a theology, or any other political system I am rather curious to know?
I don't understand you picking verses at random and the other day picking a hadith and reversing it to render the meaning of your choosing... what is that all about?

all the best
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Thinker
06-21-2009, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
what does this particular verse tell you of democracy, oligarchy or a theology, or any other political system I am rather curious to know?
I don't understand you picking verses at random and the other day picking a hadith and reversing it to render the meaning of your choosing... what is that all about?

all the best
Greetings respected skye

I didn't pick it, Andromeda picked it, I pointed out, as you have (I think) that it has nothing to do with democracy.

On that point, I asked her to show me any verses which did support the concept of democracy (a democracy that Andromeda would recognise) I suspect none exist, am I right?
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جوري
06-21-2009, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Greetings respected skye

I didn't pick it, Andromeda picked it, I pointed out, as you have (I think) that it has nothing to do with democracy.

On that point, I asked her to show me any verses which did support the concept of democracy (a democracy that Andromeda would recognise) I suspect none exist, am I right?

Greetings,

You are both going about it completely wrong, and the double setback is you are asking of such principles on a public blog.. It is absurd.

You don't come to a public forum and ask others, of the rulings of 'scholars in their field' when you have a headache.
just the plain headaches that aren't secondary to some other etiology are treated differently whether classic migraine, to common migraine, to cluster headache to tension headache, let along a headache from TTP or temporal arteritis etc etc.. is this some kind of a joke?..

the most brief explanation I can find you consists of 25 books

http://www.eislamicsoftware.com/juris25books.htm

even a simple PDF file of ten snippets is well beyond my sphere of understanding,
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~elgamal/files/booksbox.pdf

so how is it that one takes verses and renders the implication of her choice, while the other states there is no such thing about democracy in the Quran am I right?

This isn't a joke, and I certainly don't want to partake in it.
I have explained to you the best I can as a 'Lay person' that Islamic jurisprudence isn't some whimsical ten principles that can be integrated with your secular law, or be quoted ad lib to underscore your desired rendition.

Else we'd all be scholars in everything from math to engineering to medicine to the law.. why bother with schooling?

all the best
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Andromeda
06-21-2009, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Greetings respected skye

I didn't pick it, Andromeda picked it, I pointed out, as you have (I think) that it has nothing to do with democracy.

On that point, I asked her to show me any verses which did support the concept of democracy (a democracy that Andromeda would recognise) I suspect none exist, am I right?
http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/s...p?main_id=2930

has an essay on the subject of direct democracy and Islam.
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Andromeda
06-21-2009, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Greetings,

No, I am not familiar with that case (and I am not from England)
Jesus didn't hang around long enough to part with Jurisprudence.. '' The love thy neighbor principal can be just as easily taken down with "I didn't come to bring peace but a sward'' depending on the type of christian you are dealing with.. certainly clemency is part of Islamic jurisprudence, but I do hope that you understand what is meant by a complete political and economic system.
You don't extract one principal and then have it be a part of a secular law.
Islamic law exists in completeness, it is just not being used.. and I doubt a mere extraction is going to be satisfactory to all parties involved...

nonetheless we appreciate your effort and :welcome: you aboard...

all the best
Thanks for your kind words. While I am aware that Sharia law is a complete social, economic and political system, I am also aware that there are several schools of sharia.

I thought it would be quite useful to have laws declared Koranic or unKoranic, especially in countries which are not in fact Islamic.

It would be especially useful in propagating Koranic principles, I would have thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson is a not too long read about how the Neighbour Principle was incorporated into the English law.
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جوري
06-21-2009, 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by Andromeda
Thanks for your kind words. While I am aware that Sharia law is a complete social, economic and political system, I am also aware that there are several schools of sharia.

I thought it would be quite useful to have laws declared Koranic or unKoranic, especially in countries which are not in fact Islamic.

It would be especially useful in propagating Koranic principles, I would have thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson is a not too long read about how the Neighbour Principle was incorporated into the English law.
Greetings...

Again, a judge learned in jurisprudence can convene and/or consult with those learned in jurisprudence and decide in matters of the law per Islam, whether a ruling is Quranic or un'Quranic and generally it is a ruling based on Quran and sunna... it isn't a job for a lay person for reasons I have explained above.
There are no countries currently running by sharia'a laws, for even Saudi Arabia is a monarchy and that is at odds with an Islamic system..

a school in sharia'a can be akin to what you call a conservative a liberal a green party, etc all different directions are still governed by the laws of democracy but they are not a completely different system. in other words a republican elected in office still governs under 'Democracy' likewise any school of thought judging would still be ruling under shari'a law.. the laws don't differ much, overy anything major, they are very minor issues not a completely different system..


Thanks for the link, I'll have a look at it..

all the best
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Thinker
06-22-2009, 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by Andromeda
http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/s...p?main_id=2930

has an essay on the subject of direct democracy and Islam.
The article in the link you provide and your earlier posts suggests that consultation is (a form of) democracy. Consultation is not democracy, I might consult my family on what kind of car we should buy but they don’t get a vote and even if they did I can ignore their vote. There is not room in Islam for what you and I (in the west) know as democracy to the extent that some scholars suggest that even participating i.e. voting in a western style democracy is un-Islamic.

Definition: Democracy is a form of government in which the right to govern is held by the majority of citizens within a country or a state. It is derived from the Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokratía), "popular government."
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Uthman
06-22-2009, 10:48 AM
The relationship between Islam and Democracy is explained clearly in this talk by Abdur-Raheem Green:

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Uthman
06-22-2009, 10:55 AM
Welcome btw!
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Muhammad
06-22-2009, 11:49 AM
Greetings,

Welcome to the forum.

I will close this thread so that further discussion can take place in the appropriate sections of this forum.
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