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AnonymousPoster
06-22-2009, 08:34 AM
:sl:

Im feeling abit confused. I text all my fellow paistanis mubarak to celebrate the win of the cricket. One girl who I met recently started to text me back saying nationalism is haraam and that we shouldn't be holding up that filthy flag with whats happening in swat.
Is supporting a friendly game of cricket nationalism??? Was it ok for her to use such language about the flag which many people would die to defend?
Just made me think does it make us sinners for loving our home country???
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Sampharo
06-22-2009, 10:15 AM
Unfortunately brother, Taliban and their supporters has been very active at trying to dilute the strength of the rulings against them and what they are doing in Swat, and they have found that wrecking the circumstances and confusing people with wrong information would help them.

Nationalism would be an easy accusation at anyone supporting the country's decision to fight these outlaws. There is no sin in being happy about your nation's win in a sports game (there is sin in being a hooligan about it or generate overriding emotional insulting responses at your "club" opponents). There is also no sin in being supportive or attached to your people, but not to support them in oppression.

The sister is just confused and has been misguided by their propaganda.
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Abdul Fattah
06-22-2009, 04:41 PM
Selam aleykum
In my opinion nothing good has ever come from nationalism, patriotism or the like. Why do you need to congratulate your fellow countrymen? Did they contribute to the game? Are they worthy of praise because they are also pakistani, as are the winners of the cup? Or would you rather say that all praise rightfully belongs to Allah subhana wa ta'ala?

I don't have a problem with practising sports, or even watching a game. But if you are supporting a team, and then thinking that if they win, you by supporting them are also better then the others, then you are on the road to shirk.

Remember:
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (49:13)
So yes, nationalism is definitly bad.
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Zafran
06-22-2009, 04:59 PM
Patriotism is love of country which is OK

Nationalism is blind following of your country right or wrong which is haram.
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Abdul Fattah
06-22-2009, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Patriotism is love of country which is OK
Guess that depend on your defenition of patriotism. Some would say it goes beyond love, and also means devotion. Be that as it may, I still think it's an ungrounded love. Much better to have love for the ummah, rather then for some country.
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Zafran
06-22-2009, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Guess that depend on your defenition of patriotism. Some would say it goes beyond love, and also means devotion. Be that as it may, I still think it's an ungrounded love. Much better to have love for the ummah, rather then for some country.
For example Prophet Muhammad pbuh loved Mecca - because it was his home town - that type of love for your country or place you come from is OK - You can love the Ummah and the place where you are from - they are different types of love.
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Abdul Fattah
06-22-2009, 05:11 PM
As I said, it depends on your definition of patriotism...
Also one could argue that the prophet (peace be upon him) his love for Mecca was exceptional, not just because it was his hometown, but also because it houses the kabah and because of it's significance.

Perhaps if we want to follow the prophet (peace be upon him) his example we should focus on loving mecca instead of loving our home-country?
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convert
06-22-2009, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Sampharo
The sister is just confused and has been misguided by their propaganda.
The same could be said about other people as well.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-22-2009, 05:25 PM
From the dictionary


Main Entry:
na·tion·al·ism Listen to the pronunciation of nationalism
Pronunciation:
\ˈnash-nə-ˌli-zəm, ˈna-shə-nə-ˌli-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1844

1: loyalty and devotion to a nation ; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
2: a nationalist movement or government
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Zafran
06-22-2009, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
As I said, it depends on your definition of patriotism...
Also one could argue that the prophet (peace be upon him) his love for Mecca was exceptional, not just because it was his hometown, but also because it houses the kabah and because of it's significance.

Perhaps if we want to follow the prophet (peace be upon him) his example we should focus on loving mecca instead of loving our home-country?
I heard it in a Kutbah that the prophet loved Mecca beacsue it was his home town its preety natural to love the place you were born in and lived in.

You could argue that - but theres nothing realy wrong about loving your country.

Nationalism however is a sickness.
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Amadeus85
06-22-2009, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Patriotism is love of country which is OK

Nationalism is blind following of your country right or wrong which is haram.
Modern nationalism has its roots in French Revolution, most of jacobins, sankioulots, Marat, Robespierre, were french nationalists. It belonged to the Left until end of XIX century, when Dreyfuss case appeared. Then jacobins, republicans left behind nationalism for internationalism. In the same time, Charles Maurras and his Action Francaise connected nationalism with catholicism and monarchism which formed integral nationalism. But even nowadays we have leftists nationalisms e.g Katalonia or IRA.
I know that for muslims every kind of nationalism is wrong, but Charles Maurras made interesting comparission between healthy nationalism (which takes pride from religion and culture) and nationalitarism (based on racism,darwinism,evolved to hitlerism and fascism).
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Istanbul
06-22-2009, 08:53 PM
Love of country. Is it not like love of family? Is it not like love of mother?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-22-2009, 08:58 PM
I guess depends on to what extent. Even with parents, theres no obedience to the creation in disobedience to the creator. A lot of people go very far.
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Abdul Fattah
06-22-2009, 09:02 PM
Hi Amadeus
I don't think Nationalism is exclusive to French history. Almost every country in the history of mankind had a concept like this.
As for healthy nationalism, even that would be bad in Islam, because pride is bad, and leads to shirk (=associating partners with God).

Selam aleykum Istanbul
Love of country. Is it not like love of family? Is it not like love of mother?
No of course not. How can two things be the same, when they are clearly different?
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Zafran
06-22-2009, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Modern nationalism has its roots in French Revolution, most of jacobins, sankioulots, Marat, Robespierre, were french nationalists. It belonged to the Left until end of XIX century, when Dreyfuss case appeared. Then jacobins, republicans left behind nationalism for internationalism. In the same time, Charles Maurras and his Action Francaise connected nationalism with catholicism and monarchism which formed integral nationalism. But even nowadays we have leftists nationalisms e.g Katalonia or IRA.
I know that for muslims every kind of nationalism is wrong, but Charles Maurras made interesting comparission between healthy nationalism (which takes pride from religion and culture) and nationalitarism (based on racism,darwinism,evolved to hitlerism and fascism).
Nationalism is the same as tribalism - its simply not healthy whats so ever - nothing good has came out of nationalism expect wars. Taking pride with once culture isnt healthy - religion is not a cloak of pride its meant to be the truth - thats why people follow it.

Hadith Qudsi 19:
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said:
Pride is my cloak and greatness My robe, and he who competes with Me in respect of either of them I shall cast into Hell-fire.

It was related by Abu Dawud (also by Ibn Majah and Ahmad) with sound chains of authority. This Hadith also appears in Muslim in another version
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crayon
06-22-2009, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
I heard it in a Kutbah that the prophet loved Mecca beacsue it was his home town its preety natural to love the place you were born in and lived in.

You could argue that - but theres nothing realy wrong about loving your country.

Nationalism however is a sickness.
I agree.

As long as Islam doesn't clash with your love for your country, then I see nothing wrong with it.
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nebula
06-24-2009, 05:00 PM
^ yes thats true but here in London alot of Pakistani people were celebrating on streets, music, horns, etc etc it was like a big party coz pakistan won the match. It didnt seem right at ALL! astagfirullah
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Zafran
06-24-2009, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by nebula
^ yes thats true but here in London alot of Pakistani people were celebrating on streets, music, horns, etc etc it was like a big party coz pakistan won the match. It didnt seem right at ALL! astagfirullah
you can expect that from the Pakistanis:D
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Salahudeen
06-24-2009, 08:04 PM
I was supporting Pakistan also and wanted them to win, the reason that I was supporting them had nothing to do with the fact that they were Pakistani it was to do with the fact that they were Muslim's and I desired for my brothers to lift the cup.

Had bangladesh or any other Muslim country been in the final I would have also supported them, however since seeing Pakistan lift the trophy I've discovered not many people hold this view.

It was quite evident from the youth in the street shouting "PAKISTAN ZINDABAD" at bystanders that they were proud that their nation won and they thought their country to be the best at cricket. It would have been much better if they thanked Allah and chanted slogans of praise.

hmm it anoyed me too, they gain victory and rather than saying

"glory be to Allah who has subjected this to us, without him we could not have achieved this"

they run around the streets terrorising people and committing haraam. part of the ettiquette of celebrating victory is to humble yourself and give thanks. Not go around boasting

someone mentioned to me it was a victory over the kuffar and all their doing is celebrating, but if you look at how the prophet of Islam pbuh celebrated victory's over the kuffar it was not like this at all.

Like the time when he had conquered Makkah and was returning to it from Medina he entered with his head looking down at the ground, thanking Allah for giving him the victory, not going around shouting arrogantly "we won we're the best" and running around boasting to the people. Rather he humbled himself and lowered his head and entered quietly.

How beautifull it would be if this sunnah was followed today. What's sad is I did actually make a little dua for my muslim brothers to lift the cup however after seeing the reactions of the people having been victorious I don't think I'll be making such a dua again.

It also made me think is it any wonder that Allah deprives victory from the pakistani team for so many years, when they win the Muslims do more haraam than good, they increase in their arrogance and showing off also and they disrupt society to the point where people struggle to leave their towns cos of hooligans blocking the roads.

I know some "Muslims" who decided to go out clubbing to celebrate and another group decided to get high on "bud".

I kinda drifted off topic but I would say it's alright to support your nation as long as you're supporting them because they are Muslims and your brothers in faith not for any other reason. SOZ FOR THE LONG RAMBLE
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