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Uthman
06-22-2009, 11:50 AM
France's ability to reconcile secularism with religious diversity came under fresh scrutiny today after the government said it would not rule out banning Muslim women from wearing the full Islamic veil.

Five years after a law was passed forbidding children from wearing the headscarf or any other "conspicuous" religious symbol in schools, the government indicated it was prepared to wade into another thorny row over the state's right to tell individuals what not to wear.

Speaking after a group of MPs requested an inquiry into the "degrading" use of the burka and niqab, government spokesman Luc Chatel said it was important to establish to what extent women's rights were being compromised by the garments.

"If it were determined that wearing the burka is a submissive act, and that it is contrary to republican principles, naturally parliament would have to drawn the necessary conclusions," he said. When asked whether that could mean bringing in legislation to ensure an outright ban, Chatel answered: "Why not?"

Although there are no official figures, several thousand women are believed to wear the full veil in France, and their appearance has long caused consternation among the upholders of the country's staunchly secular values. Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services found she wore a burka and was living "in total submission" to her husband.

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."

For a ban to be implemented, an investigation would first have to be opened and its results studied for any sign of incompatibility between secular values and the use of the full veil. President Sarkozy, who recently defended France's division between the state and religion during a press conference with Barack Obama, is understood to be in favour of the issue being explored.

Sarkozy's leftwing urban policies secretary, herself a Muslim and former president of a women's rights group, today gave her support to "a total ban" on the burka. "I am for the banning of this coffin which kills basic freedoms," Fadela Amara told Le Parisien newspaper. "This debate has to clear the way to a law which protects women."

This point of view, however, is not shared by everyone. Muslim leaders have urged politicians not to create more tension between communities.

"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," said Mohammed Moussaouni, head of the French Council for the Muslim Faith. He said the full veil remained a marginal choice for most Muslim women, and such a provocative move threatened to alienate those more moderate in their practices.

His plea for the motion to be left alone was echoed by the immigration minister, Eric Besson, who said that, since 2004, France had "managed to strike a balance, and it would be dangerous to call that into question".

Source: The Guardian
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- IqRa -
06-22-2009, 12:06 PM
"The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia …
The sisters are not imprisoned. The non-Muslim women are the ones who are imprisoned. They go around showing their flesh to people who aren't even supposed to be seeing it, they put themselves on display, how disgusting.

"It is totally unacceptable on French soil."
You praying to Gods other than Allah, whilst you live on His land, eat and drink from what He has provided, wear from the material He has given you, is unacceptable.

Hmph.
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GuestFellow
06-22-2009, 12:11 PM
What is the French government problem? They are fools. Why are they telling everyone how to dress? Haven't they got more pressing matters to be dealt with?

It is clear France is not a free country. They do not allow people to express themselves. Bizarre how the Western media do not make big deal about these matters.

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."
Honestly when I hear this, it really annoys me. How is wearing a Hijab a form of imprisonment? The Hijab was created to uphold the morality of women.

Le gouvernement français stupide!!!
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- IqRa -
06-22-2009, 12:22 PM
The only thing I can make out from the french above, is that the government of france is stupid. If that is the case, I agree. How silly.
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Foxhole
06-22-2009, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
What is the French/Saudi government problem? They are fools. Why are they telling everyone how to dress? Haven't they got more pressing matters to be dealt with?

It is clear France/Saudi Arabia is not a free country. They do not allow people to express themselves. Bizarre how the Western/Arab media do not make big deal about these matters.
Agreed?
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- IqRa -
06-22-2009, 02:20 PM
No. Because that is a religious county, and you can't see their rules causing any problems; e.g. single mothers, rape, homosexuality, etc.
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Foxhole
06-22-2009, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by T.I.A
No. Because that is a religious county, and you can't see their rules causing any problems; e.g. single mothers, rape, homosexuality, etc.
I see. So the freedoms that Muslims expect in the west will not be reciprocated to non-Muslims in an Islamic country. As long as that's clear, we're all good.
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GuestFellow
06-22-2009, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Foxhole
Agreed?
Why are you comparing Saudi Arabia and France? Two completely different countries. Even I dislike the way the Saudi Arabian government functions. I have something to dislike about every government from different countries, including West and the East.

However if you want comparsion...crime statistics for rape. Source NationMaster.

Rank Countries Amount
# 1 United States: 95,136
# 2 South Africa: 52,425
# 3 Canada: 24,350
# 4 Australia: 15,630
# 5 India: 15,468
# 6 Mexico: 14,373
# 7 United Kingdom: 13,395
# 8 Germany: 8,615
# 9 France: 8,458
# 10 Russia: 6,978
# 13 Spain: 5,664
# 71 Saudi Arabia: 59
Keep in mind I did not meantioned all the countries. As you can clearly see, there is a significant differnece between rape statistics between Saudi Arabia and France. What is one country doing that the other is not? :/

Some of the religious laws help prevent problems from occuring in Saudi Arabia.
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- IqRa -
06-22-2009, 02:52 PM
Why do women want to show their flesh off anyway? I've never really understood that. Womens are pearls, they are beauty, who should be reserved for their husband only.
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GuestFellow
06-22-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by T.I.A
Why do women want to show their flesh off anyway? I've never really understood that. Womens are pearls, they are beauty, who should be reserved for their husband only.
The problem I believe is the media. The media tells women and men how to dress and how to look. The fashion industry plays a significant role in everyone lives in the U.K. Celebrities are like the role models for some girls and boys. Some girls are put under pressure to conform to the media and can be put under scrutiny by other people if they don't abide by them. I noticed many girls/boys try to enhance their beauty to impress others. I seen this happen in school and even at work.

Looks become so important that personality is not taken into an account.
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Foxhole
06-22-2009, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Why are you comparing Saudi Arabia and France? Two completely different countries. Even I dislike the way the Saudi Arabian government functions. I have something to dislike about every government from different countries, including West and the East.

However if you want comparsion...crime statistics for rape. Source NationMaster.



Keep in mind I did not meantioned all the countries. As you can clearly see, there is a significant differnece between rape statistics between Saudi Arabia and France. What is one country doing that the other is not? :/

Some of the religious laws help prevent problems from occuring in Saudi Arabia.
To see if you believe in freedom, or just Islam.

I believe that women should be free to choose hijab or not, whether in France or Saudi Arabia. But I'm guessing that you, like a lot of Muslims, pull out the word "freedom" when it suits you, but you don't actually believe in it.

So preventing women from traveling freely and forcibly segregating men and women reduces the number of rapes that occur. So what? If the frequency of rape is how you measure the success of social policy, then I have an idea: there will be even fewer rapes if all women are imprisoned.
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KooKoo
06-22-2009, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
What is one country doing that the other is not? :/
Harsher penalties?
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- IqRa -
06-22-2009, 03:24 PM
^ Or leading some very, very pathetic lives.
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Foxhole
06-22-2009, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by KooKoo
Harsher penalties?

forced segregation and restricting women's freedom of movement?
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GuestFellow
06-22-2009, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Foxhole
To see if you believe in freedom, or just Islam.
I believe in both too. One should not be forced to follow Islamic values.

I believe that women should be free to choose hijab or not, whether in France or Saudi Arabia. But I'm guessing that you, like a lot of Muslims, pull out the word "freedom" when it suits you, but you don't actually believe in it.
Same the issue of freedom can be applied to France. I personally don't care if a non-Muslim girl does not wish to wear the Hijab or not. It is her choice.

So preventing women from traveling freely and forcibly segregating men and women reduces the number of rapes that occur. So what? If the frequency of rape is how you measure the success of social policy, then I have an idea: there will be even fewer rapes if all women are imprisoned.
How do you know women are not allowed to travel freely in Saudi Arabia? Watch some impartial documentries about women lives in Saudi Arabia. You will get a balanced view.

People don't understand how rapes actually occur. It is not always a women walking on the street, and a stranger rapes her. You need to take into account of the perpetrator.

I know wiki is not the best source of information but it will have to do.


Perpetrator Frequency

Steady dating partner 21.6%
Casual friend 16.5%
Ex-boyfriend 12.2%
Acquaintance 10.8%
Close friend 10.1%
Casual date 10.1%
Husband 7.2%
Stranger 2%


Drug, especially alcohol, use is frequently involved in rape. In 47% of rapes, both the victim and the perpetrator had been drinking. In 17%, only the perpetrator had been. 7% of the time, only the victim had been drinking. Rapes where neither the victim nor the perpetrator had been drinking were 29% of all rapes.[2]

Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone's home. 30.9% occur in the perpetrators' homes, 26.6% in the victims' homes and 10.1% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7.2% occur at parties, 7.2% in vehicles, 3.6% outdoors and 2.2% in bars.[2]
This shows a women must have prior experiences with the man before she got raped.

Harsher penalties?
Yes but precautions are taken too.
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KooKoo
06-22-2009, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by T.I.A
Why do women want to show their flesh off anyway? I've never really understood that. Womens are pearls, they are beauty, who should be reserved for their husband only.
Well, they probably feel more comfortable in their own oufits...some may not be so if they're covered from head to toe in the middle of summer.

It does not really imply that they are "showing off their flesh."
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Foxhole
06-22-2009, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I believe in both too. One should not be forced to follow Islamic values.



Same the issue of freedom can be applied to France. I personally don't care if a non-Muslim girl does not wish to wear the Hijab or not. It is her choice.



How do you know women are not allowed to travel freely in Saudi Arabia? Watch some impartial documentries about women lives in Saudi Arabia. You will get a balanced view.

People don't understand how rapes actually occur. It is not always a women walking on the street, and a stranger rapes her. You need to take into account of the perpetrator.

I know wiki is not the best source of information but it will have to do.



This shows a women must have prior experiences with the man before she got raped.



Yes but precautions are taken too.
a) Should it be her choice in Saudi Arabia?
b) And a Muslim woman ... ?

Except for husband rape and stranger rape, all of the other rapes you listed are prevented by forced segregation, which I also mentioned.
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Abdul Fattah
06-22-2009, 03:42 PM
Selam aleykum,
Brothers and sisters, you have every right to be outraged by this idea of infringement of freedom.
But foxhole's reply was a good reminder. Saudia arabia does do the same thing and and does implement rules that it shouldn't do. The kingdom of saudia limits personal and religious freedom. This is not Islamic either. So in all honesty, defending saudia arabia in this thread is somewhat of a lost cause if you ask me.

On another note, I would be outraged if they ban the niqaab, but isn't the burqa bidah?
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- IqRa -
06-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Whoah... strong use of word there. How exactly is it bidah?
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GuestFellow
06-22-2009, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Foxhole
a) Should it be her choice in Saudi Arabia?
b) And a Muslim woman ... ?
Yes. Personally I think it is pointless to force someone to follow Islamic values, whether Muslim or non-Muslim. Whatever action they take, is not going to affect me. That is the way I see it.

I don't like what Saudi Arabia does sometimes. For example, I dislike how Christians are persecuted in that country.

Except for husband rape and stranger rape, all of the other rapes you listed are prevented by forced segregation, which I also mentioned.
No. When men and women do mix sometimes but they have to cover themselves up.
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- IqRa -
06-22-2009, 03:48 PM
Personally I think it is pointless to force someone to follow Islamic values, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.
What should happen is that they should be told the outcome of not wearing the Hijaab and the reward for wearing the Hijaab, and then they can decide for themselves. Saheeh?
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GuestFellow
06-22-2009, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by T.I.A
What should happen is that they should be told the outcome of not wearing the Hijaab and the reward for wearing the Hijaab, and then they can decide for themselves. Saheeh?
Yeah I agree. ^_^
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Uthman
06-22-2009, 03:57 PM
The French government is considering the ban on the premise that the Burqa may violate women's rights. While I have no doubt that there are some women in France who may be forced by their husbands or their families to wear it, it is also a fact that many women choose to wear it of their own accord, seeing it as their religious obligation and finding it to be a source of liberation as opposed to oppression.

Thus, I would say that the Burqa in and of itself cannot be said to violate women's rights but only when it is forced upon them can it be considered a violation. For this reason, the French government should not ban the wearing of the Burqa.
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Abdul Fattah
06-22-2009, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by T.I.A
Whoah... strong use of word there. How exactly is it bidah?
I'm not saying that it is. I'm beyond bothering making statements. I prefer asking questions.
Did it exist at the time of the prophet (pbuh)?
Does it go beyond the traditional rule/guidelines (covering up more then is seen in the sunnah, like the eyes)?
If both replies are yes, would that be sufficient ground to judge it as bidah?
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Al-Zaara
06-22-2009, 04:21 PM
In the Finnish Hesari(HS)-news they said the following:
Muslimien Kansallisen Federaation varapresidentti Merzak El-Bekkay muistutti Libération-lehdessä hyvin pienen ryhmän käyttävän burkhaa. Hänestä Ranskan pitäisi huivikiistelyn sijasta keskittyä työllisyyden talousongelmien voittamiseen.
Rough translation:
De la Fédération nationale des musulmans, FNMF's vicepreseident Merzak El Bekkay reminded in the Liberation-magazine that a very small group wear the burqa. He thinks France should instead of this veil-debate concentrate on defeating the economical problems.
I think the same.
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Beardo
06-22-2009, 04:30 PM
You know, it's an honor for us to proclaim our faith. And it's of high importance to wear Hijaab and the veil. The hijaab is widely known as compulsory. However, it's not JUST that.

Do we obey the traffic laws? Do we make a good impression on ourselves? Do people say "Muslims are the only ones that actually follow the rules!"

I was in the car and an uncle was driving us to the Masjid. Alhamdulillah, Allah reward him! But it's not just going to the Masjid... Even on the way to the masjid there is reward, but you dont want to ruin or decrease the reward by nto following the rules of the land. And it's not just you that'll be affected, but all the Muslims....

Did that make sense?
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Yanal
06-22-2009, 04:38 PM
Why do muslims stay there regardless of the circumstances?The Burqa has not been banned in the US even though they thought us "muslims" did the 9/11 and yet many Muslims wear the Burqa. One incident I remember that during Barack Obamas speech two muslim ladies in the Burqa sat at backstage so they could stay away from fitnah but for the safety of President Barack Obama they forcefully removed them.

Couldn't they have asked them to leave? Why does France think of all countries they are special and can ban the Burqa. Why is the Burqa always questioned while the Sikhs holding knives and wearing a turban not? Dont you think we are being discriminated?
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The_Prince
06-22-2009, 04:39 PM
PARIS – President Nicolas Sarkozy said the Muslim burqa would not be welcome in France, calling the full-body religious gown a sign of the "debasement" of women.

In the first presidential address to parliament in 136 years, Sarkozy faced critics who fear the burqa issue could stigmatize France's Muslims and said he supported banning the garment from being worn in public.

"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause at the Chateau of Versailles, southwest of Paris.

"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."

Dozens of legislators have called for creating a commission to study a possible ban in France, where there is a small but growing trend of wearing the full-body garment despite a 2004 law forbidding it from being worn in public schools.

France has Western Europe's largest Muslim population, an estimated 5 million people, and the 2004 law sparked fierce debate both at home and abroad.

Even the French government has been divided over the issue, with Immigration Minister Eric Besson saying a full ban would only "create tensions," while junior minister for human rights Rama Yade said she was open to a ban if it was aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burqa.

The terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably in France. The former refers to a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with only a mesh screen over the eyes, whereas the latter is a full-body veil, often in black, with slits for the eyes.

A leading French Muslim group, the French Council for the Muslim Religion, has warned against studying the burqa, saying it would "stigmatize" Muslims.

Sarkozy was due to host a state dinner Monday with Sheik Hamad Bin Jassem Al Thani of Qatar, where women wear Islamic head coverings in public — whether while shopping or driving cars.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_sarkozy_burqa

this shows the disgrace of the Muslim world. here you have this french snail saying the Muslim burqa is not allowed or welcome in France, yet our leaders will openly welcome this snail into our country, and go have dinner with him!

why dont Muslim leaders come out and say western women attire is also not welcomed in our countries. since sarkozy said how he feels about the burqa, let me say how i feel about the type of clothes that many western women wear: the type of clothes that western women wear is a sign of harlotness, exploitation, and being meat for the men to look at, and i and most Muslims sure as heck dont want this type of thing in our countries.
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Yanal
06-22-2009, 04:41 PM
Why do muslims stay there regardless of the circumstances?The Burqa has not been banned in the US even though they thought us "muslims" did the 9/11 and yet many Muslims wear the Burqa. One incident I remember that during Barack Obamas speech two muslim ladies in the Burqa sat at backstage so they could stay away from fitnah but for the safety of President Barack Obama they forcefully removed them.

Couldn't they have asked them to leave? Why does France think of all countries they are special and can ban the Burqa. Why is the Burqa always questioned while the Sikhs holding knives and wearing a turban not? Dont you think we are being discriminated?
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Yanal
06-22-2009, 04:54 PM
The women is a sweet thing.If a sweet thing is left uncovered,swarms if dirty creatures are liable to prey upon it and corrupt it. Similiar in the case of a woman. The current wave of rape incidents in the regions where public exposure of women prevails,streghtens this argument beyond any doubt. For this reason the Holy Prophet(PBUH) instructed the women to observe veil. Allahs Apostle also said " When a girl reaches menstrual time(attains maturity) it is improper that any part of her body should except such and such exposed. He hinted at her face and palms.
(Abu Dawud)

Abu Huraira also reported that the messanger of Allah(PBUH) said : One type of the denizens of hell would be the women who would be dressed but appear to be naked would be inclined to evil and make their husbands incline towards it. They shall not enter Paradise. They would not be smelt from such and such distance.
(Muslim)

This is proof if our wives do not wear niqaab we will suffer with them in hell. May Allah save us.
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Abdul Fattah
06-22-2009, 04:59 PM
selam aleykum
Akhi, think you're confusing hijab with niqaab
Hijab is mandatory for muslim woman, niqaab is not, in fact during hajj it is even forbidden. So it's certainly not the case that woman who don't wear niqaab will end up in hell because of that. And Allah subhana wa t'ala knows best.
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Zafran
06-22-2009, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Foxhole
Agreed?
Theres actually a difference between 2 countries - Saudi arabia isnt found on the principles of liberty, Fratenity and Freedom - its actually found on the Saud Family - France is being hypocritical by its own values.

secodanly the way a muslim defines freedom (to practice his/her own religion freely) and the way the French define freedom are 2 very different things.

Thats way the French should change there principles if they want to impose there own views on other people - its simple.
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Danah
06-22-2009, 08:07 PM
The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party,
What a tolerable view!!!.....Good for you France :raging:
since they are on it, why not come to women houses and chose what colors they will wear from their dresses closets?? <_< :raging:


That is the democracy and tolerance Europe always brag about!!!
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Amadeus85
06-22-2009, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."
Nothing new from them.
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Zafran
06-22-2009, 08:22 PM
The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."
wow thats pure colonistic rhetoric - they actually think they are saving these women. What do they think of imprisoned Bikini women.
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Whatsthepoint
06-22-2009, 08:27 PM
No such ban is necessary. All religious symbols are already banned in schools and probably other public places as well and private businesses have the right to dismiss women for wearing the regular veil.
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ragdollcat1982
06-22-2009, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Y

I don't like what Saudi Arabia does sometimes. For example, I dislike how Christians are persecuted in that country.



.


I agree with you 100% Fellow. One thing I do not understand is the ban on women driving. I know their are some religiious rulings involved wanting to guard a womans modesty, but how is guarding her modesty to have her in a car alone with a non mahram employee ? I have read that a person can be arrested and executed for possesing a Bible on the charge that they are trying to convert Muslims. There are no churches allowed and even the right to private worship is not protected or ensured. I know that in the Quran Jews and Christians are guarenteed protection and freedom to practice their faith in an Islamic state, yet in numerous Muslim countries they are denied that right. I would be outraged if Muslim women in America were banned from wearing their hijabs as I wear one as well:) and I view any infringement on freedom of religion offensive and clearly that is going on in France .
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ragdollcat1982
06-22-2009, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
private businesses have the right to dismiss women for wearing the regular veil.
Not in America, that would be a classic 1st amendment violation. An employer can make the woman tuck in her hijab so it want get caught on anything and mandate that it match the uniform, other than that they cant fire her legally.
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Zafran
06-22-2009, 08:32 PM
Thats because Saudi arabia is what it is Saudi Arabia.
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ragdollcat1982
06-23-2009, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Thats because Saudi arabia is what it is Saudi Arabia.

It does appear though that Saudi Arabia at times puts more emphasis on tribal customs than Islamic ones. People of the Book are guarenteed protection and freedom to practice their religion without fear of persecution, this is not the case in SA.
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Whatsthepoint
06-23-2009, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Not in America, that would be a classic 1st amendment violation. An employer can make the woman tuck in her hijab so it want get caught on anything and mandate that it match the uniform, other than that they cant fire her legally.
What about the niqab?
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- IqRa -
06-23-2009, 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No such ban is necessary. All religious symbols are already banned in schools and probably other public places as well and private businesses have the right to dismiss women for wearing the regular veil.
Exactly.
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Ummu Sufyaan
06-23-2009, 09:54 AM
Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman
because women, especially not Muslim women, aren't fresh prices of meat in the butchers shop for some disgusting and nauseating dog to come and drool his disgusting and nauseating drool all over?

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party,
says the one whose intolerant...
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Foxhole
06-23-2009, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Theres actually a difference between 2 countries - Saudi arabia isnt found on the principles of liberty, Fratenity and Freedom - its actually found on the Saud Family - France is being hypocritical by its own values.
So if a country is founded on injustice, it's OK for them to be unjust because they're being consistent?

Originally Posted by Zafran
secodanly the way a muslim defines freedom (to practice his/her own religion freely) and the way the French define freedom are 2 very different things.
How do you define freedom? Do you have one definition in France and another one in SA?

It sounds a whole lot like you agree that France has to accommodate Muslims in a way that non-Muslims need not be accommodated in Saudi Arabia, and we have to accept that it is just simply because they have different rules. Have you no opinion of which is right?

Originally Posted by Zafran
Thats way the French should change there principles if they want to impose there own views on other people - its simple.
They could, I guess. But if they changed their constitution to define religious freedom as the freedom to worship only in your homes, would this make such a practice suddenly just?
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ragdollcat1982
06-23-2009, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What about the niqab?


I would assume the same would apply for niqab, unless for example in the medical feild or food prep it might be a question of infection control and sanitation, but wearing a surgical mask I think would be an acceptable alternative. I have already had one incident myself in January at the mall when some teenage witch came up from behind and tried to take my hijab off my head. I dare anybody to try it again, next time I wont be so nice.
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Uthman
06-28-2009, 01:07 PM
Veiled threats: row over Islamic dress opens bitter divisions in France

In the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis, with its busy market, fast-food joints and bargain clothes shops, Angelica Winterstein only goes out once a week – and only if she really has to.

"I feel like I'm being judged walking down the street. People tut or spit. In a smart area west of Paris, one man stopped his car and shouted: 'Why don't you go back to where you came from?' But I'm French, I couldn't be more French," said the 23-year-old, who was born and raised in bourgeois Versailles.

Once a fervent Catholic, Winterstein converted to Islam at 18. Six months ago she began wearing a loose, floor-length black jilbab, showing only her expertly made-up face from eyebrows to chin. She now wants to add the final piece, and wear full niqab, covering her face and leaving just her eyes visible.

"But this week, after Sarkozy announced that full veils weren't welcome in France, things have got really difficult," she said. "As it is, people sometimes shout 'Ninja' at me. It's impossible to find a job – I'm a qualified childminder and get plenty of interviews because of my CV, but when people see me in person, they don't call back. It's difficult in this country, there's a certain mood in the air. I don't feel comfortable walking around."

This week, France plunged into another bitterly divisive national debate on Muslim women's clothing, reopening questions on how the country with western Europe's biggest Muslim community integrates Islam into its secular republic. A parliamentary inquiry is to examine how many women in France wear full Islamic veils or niqab before a decision is made over possibly banning such garments in the street. More than 50 MPs from across the political spectrum have called for restrictions on full veils, called "degrading", "submissive" and "coffins" by politicians. Yet the actual numbers of niqab wearers in France appears to be so small that TV news crews have struggled to find individuals to film. Muslim groups estimate that there are perhaps only a few hundred women fully covering themselves out of a Muslim population of over 5 million – often young French women, many of them converts.

That such a marginal issue can suddenly take centre stage in a country otherwise struggling with major issues of mass unemployment and protest over public sector reform shows how powerful the symbol of the headscarf and veil remains in France.

Human rights groups warned this week that the row over niqabs risks exacerbating the growing problem of discrimination against women wearing standard Muslim headscarves. Five years on from the heated national debate over France's 2004 law banning headscarves and all conspicuous religious symbols from state schools, there has been an increase in general discrimination against adult women who cover their heads.

"Women in standard headscarves have been refused access to voting booths, driving lessons, barred from their own wedding ceremonies at town halls, ejected from university classes and in one case, a woman in a bank was not allowed to withdraw cash from her own account at the counter. This is clear discrimination by people who wrongly use the school law to claim that France is a secular state that doesn't allow headscarves in public places. It's utterly illegal and the courts rule in our favour," said Renee Le Mignot, co-president of the Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between Peoples. "Our fear is that the current niqab debate is going to make this general discrimination worse."

Samy Debah, a history teacher who heads France's Collective against Islamophobia, said 80% of discrimination cases reported to his group involved women wearing standard headscarves.

He had rarely seen any instances of women wearing niqabs, even in the ethnically mixed north Paris suburb where he lives. "From our figures, the biggest discriminator against Muslim women is the state and state officials," he said. "What people have to understand is that the concept of French secularism is not anti-religion per se, it is supposed to be about respecting all religions."

The current initiative against full Islamic veils began in Venissieux, a leftwing area on the industrial outskirts of Lyon. Its communist mayor, André Gerin, led proposals for a clampdown, saying he saw increasing numbers of full veils in his constituency.

"I call them walking prisons, phantoms that go past us, it's that visual aspect that's an issue," Gerin said. "There's a malaise in the general population faced with the proliferation of these garments. I sense that on the part of Muslims, too."

Gerin said women in niqab posed "concrete problems" in daily life. "We had an issue in a school where a headteacher at the end of the school day didn't want to hand back two children to a phantom," he said. Gerin has refused to conduct the town-hall wedding of a woman wearing niqab. Another woman wearing a full veil was refused social housing by a landlord in the area. The mayor said that when women haven't removed their face covering, it has resulted in conflict with public officials who often felt insulted or under attack. But he denied stigmatising the wider Muslim population.

"The current situation [where women wear niqabs] is stigmatising Muslims," he said. His aim was to "establish a debate with the Muslim community, integrate Islam properly into French life" and expose fundamentalist practices.

Two previous calls for a law restricting full veils have been left to gather dust. This time, the debate is gathering force. There are divisions in the government itself – the feminist Muslim junior minister, Fadela Amara, supports a niqab ban while the immigration minister, Eric Besson, warns it would create unnecessary tension.

Horia Demiati, 30, a French financier who wears a standard headscarf with her business suits, said: "I really fear an increase in hatred." She recently won a discrimination case after she and her family, including a six-month baby, were refused access to a rural holiday apartment they had booked in the Vosges. The woman who refused them argued that she was a secular feminist and didn't want to see the headscarf, "an instrument of women's submission and oppression", in her establishment.

Demiati said: "This niqab debate is such a marginal issue, yet it risks detracting from the real issues in France."

Source:The Guardian
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Blackpool
06-28-2009, 01:20 PM
If this happens in France I have a feeling there will be a few more that follow suit and I wouldn't rule out the UK in doing so either...
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Muezzin
06-28-2009, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Blackpool
If this happens in France I have a feeling there will be a few more that follow suit and I wouldn't rule out the UK in doing so either...
Nah, we already have the expenses scandal, the Iranian government and Michael Jackson's passing so close to his planned performances in London to distract us from the economy.
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Uthman
06-29-2009, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Blackpool
If this happens in France I have a feeling there will be a few more that follow suit and I wouldn't rule out the UK in doing so either...
I'm not so sure. The UK government has a more tolerant attitude towards the Islam than France does. France has already outlawed the Hijab in public places...
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Uthman
06-29-2009, 06:37 PM
Burka & women’s liberation

Denying women the option to veil themselves may provide France with a vision of a progressive Islam, but it will compromise the reality of Muslims in Europe.

From Fata to France, the question of what differentiates moderate from extremist Islam is being settled on the bodies of women. Using women as a litmus test for whether a certain interpretation of religion is ‘acceptable’ is one of the worst things that can happen to women’s rights.

This is especially true if the indicator is women’s clothing, as nothing can be a more superficial gauge of either emancipation or religiosity. Indeed, there can be no doubt that the struggle for women’s liberation and religious moderation is a long-term effort that will require systemic social change. What, then, is all the fuss about?

Last week, French President Nicolas Sarkozy ruffled many a headscarf when he lashed out against burkas. He framed his remarks as an issue of women’s rights, rather than religious tolerance. By describing burkas as a sign of ‘subjugation’ and ‘submission’ that deprive women of their identity and hinder social participation, he cast the garments as a cultural tool of male oppression (rather than a religious expression). Seeing is believing, his simple logic suggested: if a woman looks liberated, she must be liberated.

Now, a national commission backed by 58 members of parliament, many of whom are from Sarkozy’s rightwing UMP party, are conducting a ‘burka probe’. If investigations suggest that women are being coerced into covering themselves, burkas will be banned in France to protect women and ensure their equality.

The problem is, Sarkozy’s women’s lib argument holds no water. The 2004 ruling that banned ‘ostentatious’ religious symbols — including headscarves — from French classrooms forced many Muslim girls to leave the public secular school system and enroll in Islamic schools where they could continue wearing hijabs. A ban on burkas will similarly confine women who veil themselves to their homes. Rather than boost social participation, integration and equality, French legislation on Muslim women’s clothing will further marginalise them. In a secular state such as France, where human rights are privileged, this outcome should be seen as counter-productive.

One is also discomfited by Sarkozy’s throwback to colonial posturing. His brash attempt to ‘save’ Muslim women from their barbaric, overbearing husbands and fathers is paternalistic, eerily recalling the we-meant-best rhetoric that stemmed from the ‘white man’s burden’.

Many have also pointed out that Sarkozy’s absolutist rhetoric resembles the very extremism it aims to counter. In Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan, women have been forced to wear burkas — a practice that has been widely denounced. But how can its flipside — forcing women not to wear burkas — be any better? The argument that the state cannot tell a woman how to dress is equally valid in the Muslim world and the West.

As such, everything about Sarkozy’s burka-bashing seems ridiculous. Given that only about 100,000 women out of France’s total population of five million Muslims wear burkas, it also seems unnecessary. Can such a minority merit the attention of the French parliament when the country as a whole is still wrangling with the problem of how to integrate Muslims into mainstream French society? Is it possible that the feisty Frenchman’s burka fervour is really directed at something else?

Soon after Sarkozy condemned burkas, Mohammed Moussaoui, the president of France’s Representative Muslim Council, expressed support for the president’s stance and declared that his group was investing in promoting a moderate version of Islam. Moussaoui’s comments indicated that Sarkozy’s decision to raise this point had less to do with the social politics of the burka per se, and more to do with which western power decides what interpretation of Islam will be acceptable to the West.

It is no coincidence that Sarkozy spoke out against burkas soon after US President Barack Obama delivered his historic address in Cairo. In that speech, Obama hit out at European countries that are dictating how Muslim women should dress and warned against disguising “hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism”. Sarkozy’s critique of the burka, then, is a way to push back against Obama, making it clear that France will deal with Islam on its own terms, not America’s.

Indeed, the burka issue gets at the heart of a longstanding tussle between the US and France. Writing in The Christian Science Monitor, Howard LaFranchi points out that the difference between the two countries’ approaches to notions of freedom 'comes down to one of ‘freedom to’ versus 'freedom from'. While the US defends a woman’s right to dress as she likes, France wants to ensure women’s freedom from coercion and subjugation. In the former approach, individual liberty is elevated; in the latter, the state as protector bears the burden of responsibility.
This arm-wrestling between the US and France over concepts of freedom is centuries old, and is now taking place on the backs of Muslim women because the greatest challenge the West currently faces is its engagement with Islam.

Whichever nation sets the boundaries for what constitutes ‘moderate’ Islam will emerge victorious, at least for now.Of course, this could also be a case of petty personal politics. Sarkozy and Obama are both charismatic, ‘rule’-breaking, superstars with a penchant for the limelight. At the G20, Nato and EU summits earlier this year, Sarkozy was publicly perturbed at being overshadowed by Obama — he even went so far as to declare that the US president was inexperienced and thus not 'up to standard'. Post-Cairo, France’s favourite troubleshooter probably wants to ensure that he is not eclipsed by Obama.

It would be best if western powers left Muslim women’s clothes out of their lovers’ spats. Denying women the option to veil themselves may provide France with a vision of a progressive Islam, but it will compromise the reality of Muslims in Europe. After all, banning burkas does not address the real issues that continue to hinder the progress of Muslim women the world over — access to education, political representation, job opportunities, vulnerability to domestic violence and more. In the near future, when military operations in Pakistan’s tribal and northwestern areas end, it will be time to invest in social and economic development. International donors have already implied that bolstering women’s rights while respecting tribal mores will be of utmost importance.

One hopes that the Pakistani government can learn a lesson from the fallacies of the French and instead take a page from Obama’s Cairo address. Let the chador be. Instead, emphasise female literacy, fiscal independence through micro-finance, equitable healthcare and freedom of movement. Looking the part is the least important aspect of being liberated.

huma.yusuf@gmail.com

Source
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AntiKarateKid
06-29-2009, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Foxhole
To see if you believe in freedom, or just Islam.

I believe that women should be free to choose hijab or not, whether in France or Saudi Arabia. But I'm guessing that you, like a lot of Muslims, pull out the word "freedom" when it suits you, but you don't actually believe in it.

So preventing women from traveling freely and forcibly segregating men and women reduces the number of rapes that occur. So what? If the frequency of rape is how you measure the success of social policy, then I have an idea: there will be even fewer rapes if all women are imprisoned.
Is this a joke? Freedom or Islam? This is exactly the type of ridiculous rhetoric that has most of the "Muslim world" infuriated with the arrogant attitude of the west.

Let me tell you about freedom. Freedom is not being stared at by guys and being reduced to an object. Freedom is not having to worry about how much makeup you have to put on to look good in publin infront of people you dont even know.

That is freedom. Women are trapped in a prison in the "free west" and their status on the media outlets as sex objects demonstrates it perfectly.

Segregating the sexes leads to better respect between them and less of a chance for people to have extramarital relations. The guys at my Muslim Student Association show more respect for women than you ilk ever will.

So the next time you pull out utter crap like this, turn on the television or pic up a magazine and see that the only thing you guys have "liberated" women from is the need to cover more than 1% of their body.
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GuestFellow
06-29-2009, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Is this a joke? Freedom or Islam? This is exactly the type of ridiculous rhetoric that has most of the "Muslim world" infuriated with the arrogant attitude of the west.

Let me tell you about freedom. Freedom is not being stared at by guys and being reduced to an object. Freedom is not having to worry about how much makeup you have to put on to look good in publin infront of people you dont even know.

That is freedom. Women are trapped in a prison in the "free west" and their status on the media outlets as sex objects demonstrates it perfectly.

Segregating the sexes leads to better respect between them and less of a chance for people to have extramarital relations. The guys at my Muslim Student Association show more respect for women than you ilk ever will.

So the next time you pull out utter crap like this, turn on the television or pic up a magazine and see that the only thing you guys have "liberated" women from is the need to cover more than 1% of their body.
Also some girls in school, are even pressured to have sex, from what I learnt in Sociology. Apparently it is seen as cool.

How sad...
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 03:34 PM
Technically I'm not in favor of limiting rights or imposing dresscodes but certain limits should be set, you can't walk around naked and imho you shulnd't be allowed to walk around in a burka, its two sides of the same coin, extremes, extreme religiosity is not good and the state should limit it, even by limiting niqab. sure a ban would confine a couple of women into their houses but it may also detter other from wearing it, creating the room for a more moderate Islam as the article states. It could have an adverse effect though, Muslims may view it as another form of repression.
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Technically I'm not in favor of limiting rights or imposing dresscodes but certain limits should be set, you can't walk around naked and imho you shulnd't be allowed to walk around in a burka, its two sides of the same coin, extremes, extreme religiosity is not good and the state should limit it, even by limiting niqab. sure a ban would confine a couple of women into their houses but it may also detter other from wearing it, creating the room for a more moderate Islam as the article states. It could have an adverse effect though, Muslims may view it as another form of repression.
What twisted logic! A burka is extreme religiosity? If it is not prophibited by Islam and it doesn't violate it, how is it any mor eextreme than othe rpermissible things?

Moreover, what the hell does "extreme religiousity" mean? My grandpa is "extremely" religious. What bands would you put on him?

Moreover, the idea that the other extreme of some thing dangerous is also dangerous is ridiculous.

Extreme----------------------Extreme

Naked (ban!!!)------------------------Burka (ban!!!)
Hitting someone with a bat (ban!!!)----------Hitting with a pillow (ban!!!!)

WTH???
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Uthman
06-30-2009, 03:43 PM
To be honest, this shows to me another sign of the incompatibility between Islam (in it's practised form) and the West. They're just too different and when they're put together, conflict is inevitable.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 03:43 PM
It's extreme, at least from the western point of view, the same as refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex for instance, if your grandpa is like that, he's extreme. The former UK communities minister Blears refused to attend an islam meeting because one of the participants wouldn't shake her hand. I think she did the right thing.
We don't need extreme Muslims here (Europe). Go to Yemen or the US.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
To be honest, this shows to me another sign of the incompatibility between Islam (in it's practised form) and the West. They're just too different and when they're put together, conflict is inevitable.
Exactly. People should face the fact that multiculturalism does not mean allowing other cultures to fully practice their culture just as if they were home.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
To be honest, this shows to me another sign of the incompatibility between Islam (in it's practised form) and the West. They're just too different and when they're put together, conflict is inevitable.
Hey, Mr Mod.:D
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S_87
06-30-2009, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Technically I'm not in favor of limiting rights or imposing dresscodes but certain limits should be set, you can't walk around naked and imho you shulnd't be allowed to walk around in a burka, its two sides of the same coin, extremes, extreme religiosity is not good and the state should limit it, even by limiting niqab. sure a ban would confine a couple of women into their houses but it may also detter other from wearing it, creating the room for a more moderate Islam as the article states. It could have an adverse effect though, Muslims may view it as another form of repression.
no such thing...you mean a modern edited to suit the west islam.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by amani
no such thing...you mean a modern edited to suit the west islam.
Yes.
I don't want a new branch of Islam to be created in europe, just less practicing Muslims, more secular Muslims etc. I want the same for christians, Jews, Hinuds or any other religion.
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's extreme, at least from the western point of view, the same as refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex for instance, if your grandpa is like that, he's extreme. The former UK communities minister Blears refused to attend an islam meeting because one of the participants wouldn't shake her hand. I think she did the right thing.
We don't need extreme Muslims here (Europe). Go to Yemen or the US.
And here I was thinking that the "west" prided itself on freedom and whatnot. But a person is unwelcome in the country because of how they want to interact with the other sex eh?

Your view of sex relations has turned so many women in the west into simple sex objects. Check out the dresses of the women in the entertainment magazines, for example.

And again, drop the word extreme. It has no meaning other than "Islam that you don't like".
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
And here I was thinking that the "west" prided itself on freedom and whatnot. But a person is unwelcome in the country because of how they want to interact with the other sex eh?

Your view of sex relations has turned so many women in the west into simple sex objects. Check out the dresses of the women in the entertainment magazines, for example.

And again, drop the word extreme. It has no meaning other than "Islam that you don't like".
Well we should stop priding ourselves then. And the freedom to practice foreign cultures is still great with the burqa banned or not.
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes.
I don't want a new branch of Islam to be created in europe, just less practicing Muslims, more secular Muslims etc. I want the same for christians, Jews, Hinuds or any other religion.
So you want us to abandon our religion? Personally, none of my relatives wear the burka but now I see your real point.

Underneath your pretenses of freedom and what you see as "modernization" you just want to see us leave Islam. Ever wonder where all these conspiracy theories of the West vs Islam come from?

From people like you.
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aamirsaab
06-30-2009, 03:58 PM
:sl:
More ''secularist'' bs. More hypocritical standards. More crap in general.
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well we should stop priding ourselves then. And the freedom to practice foreign cultures is still great with the burqa banned or not.
Freedom for some, not all huh? Who decides who gets left out? Where is the line?

The fact is that you are a new type of "extremist". Slowly but surely trying to eliminate the lifestyle of those you disagree with. But instead of bombs, you do it in a more subtle and deceptive way.

Ever see "V for Vendetta"? People like you would have Britain become like that.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
So you want us to abandon our religion? Personally, none of my relatives wear the burka but now I see your real point.

Underneath your pretenses of freedom and what you see as "modernization" you just want to see us leave Islam. Ever wonder where all these conspiracy theories of the West vs Islam come from?

From people like you.
I expect overly religious people to move. Radical evangelicals can move to Tenessee, radical Muslims can moe to Somalia.
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Layla454
06-30-2009, 03:59 PM
France has actually adopted secularism as their religion which is ironic, considering they despise religion
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I expect overly religious people to move. Radical evangelicals can move to Tenessee, radical Muslims can moe to Somalia.
What about overly secular? As if secularism is by its definition good.

Moreover, what bull is that? They aren't hurting anyone. If they want to attack smeone then sure. But just for doing that? You're a cultural facist.
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S_87
06-30-2009, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes.
I don't want a new branch of Islam to be created in europe, just less practicing Muslims, more secular Muslims etc. I want the same for christians, Jews, Hinuds or any other religion.
well thats not gonna happen, muslims arent muslims for you or your sake

seculars=sell outs
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Freedom for some, not all huh? Who decides who gets left out? Where is the line?

The fact is that you are a new type of "extremist". Slowly but surely trying to eliminate the lifestyle of those you disagree with. But instead of bombs, you do it in a more subtle and deceptive way.

Ever see "V for Vendetta"? People like you would have Britain become like that.
I decide where the line is. Or in case of France, the president and the parliament. And don't talk to me about lines, your religion has them too.
All I want is to keep europe a fairly free continent for everyone, perserve multiculturalism etc, also by discriminating against certain intolerant groups of people, such as radical religionists, nazis etc.
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Foxhole
06-30-2009, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
And here I was thinking that the "west" prided itself on freedom and whatnot. But a person is unwelcome in the country because of how they want to interact with the other sex eh?

Your view of sex relations has turned so many women in the west into simple sex objects. Check out the dresses of the women in the entertainment magazines, for example.

And again, drop the word extreme. It has no meaning other than "Islam that you don't like".
They look like objects to you because they are objects to you.

Not to me. A woman should be free to dress as she pleases, and most women want to look attractive. Who am I to deny her that right? Who are you to deny her that right? Who is anybody to deny her that right?

Do you like dressing modestly? Good for you. Feel free. Dress modestly. But don't call women "objects".
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Foxhole
They look like objects to you because they are objects to you.
Not to me. A woman should be free to dress as she pleases, and most women want to look attractive. Who am I to deny her that right? Who are you to deny her that right? Who is anybody to deny her that right?

Do you like dressing modestly? Good for you. Feel free. Dress modestly. [B]But don't call women "objects".
Hardly. I'll do this point by point.

1. They look like objects because what the hell do you think exposing half of your breast does to men? Make them appreciate their personality more? HA! Compare the dress of the porno star with some of the clothing regular people wear, see how close they're getting?

2. We are talking about what people SHOULD do. People are free to do whatever they want. They can go to the petting zoo anf find their new huspand or wife in the cages if they want. But what people SHOULD do is a different concept.

3. I call it as I see them. Go ahead, flaunt yourself infront of guys who arent your husband. But all they are is looking at your body. Not you as a person. You are an object to them, and you enjoy it. Get real. Who are you to deny my right of calling them objects?:rollseyes
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
What about overly secular? As if secularism is by its definition good.

Moreover, what bull is that? They aren't hurting anyone. If they want to attack smeone then sure. But just for doing that? You're a cultural facist.
So are you, just in your case the fascism is religiously sanctioned.
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
So are you, just in your case the fascism is religiously sanctioned.
Before I respond to this, give me an example.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Before I respond to this, give me an example.
As I said before, you complains about lines being set, eventhough you religion has set lines for several social groups, you don't like the french saying what people should or should not wear, yet you have a very clear picture of how people should behave in an ideal society.
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
As I said before, you complains about lines being set, eventhough you religion has set lines for several social groups, you don't like the french saying what people should or should not wear, yet you have a very clear picture of how people should behave in an ideal society.
Islamic guidlines such as prohibition of drink benefit the people. On the other hand, wearing a burka hardly causes harm.
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes.
I don't want a new branch of Islam to be created in europe, just less practicing Muslims, more secular Muslims etc. I want the same for christians, Jews, Hinuds or any other religion.
I'm afraid you will have to live with it. ^_^
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Islamic guidlines such as prohibition of drink benefit the people. On the other hand, wearing a burka hardly causes harm.
The prohibition of the burqa may help fight islamic radicalism for instace, so there is benefit. And that's not the point. the point is that you set the lines where you think they should be and coplain when others set them differently.
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I'm afraid you will have to live with it. ^_^
Indeed.

He it is Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters may resent it. Quran 9:32
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The prohibition of the burqa may help fight islamic radicalism for instace, so there is benefit. And that's not the point. the point is that you set the lines where you think they should be and coplain when others set them differently.
Where is your proof that it helps? Let the Muslims fight the "radicals". You have already admitted you want the whole religion to go away.

Person A: Guys good news! The West has gotten rid of the radicals!
Muslims: Huzzah!
Person A: Buuuut. We also want to get rid of ya too!
Muslims: Huzz- eh??
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The prohibition of the burqa may help fight islamic radicalism for instace, so there is benefit.
People can always use hoodies. : o

Lets ban them too!
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Where is your proof that it helps? Let the Muslims fight the "radicals". You have already admitted you want the whole religion to go away.
There is no proof as it hasn' been enacted yet.
I just don't want islamic morals to have any influence whatsoever in european politics.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
People can always use hoodies. : o

Lets ban them too!
No they can't!
Double standards!
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I expect overly religious people to move. Radical evangelicals can move to Tenessee, radical Muslims can moe to Somalia.


If you dont like these over religious people why dont you move say to China or North Korea where practicing any religion is officially forbidden. In N. Korea it is illegal to practice Christianity. Those who possess a Bible have to hide in a wall because if caught it means imprisonment or worse. I believe in religious freedom for all people, that is one thing I love about the USA is that we have a gaurenteed freedom of religion. I would not live in Europe for anything. I do not agree with the stance of some Islamic countries where non Muslims especially Christians are not allowed to practice their faith even privately. If I had to live in the Middle East I would prefer to live in either Bahrain or the Gulf states where they are more tolerant of Westerner.
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Ansariyah
06-30-2009, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The prohibition of the burqa may help fight islamic radicalism for instace, so there is benefit. And that's not the point. the point is that you set the lines where you think they should be and coplain when others set them differently.
Very Amusing!
how do u define 'radicalism'? In ur own words, wats it to u?]
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No they can't!
Double standards!
No seriously would you ban hoodies. XD
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
If you dont like these over religious people why dont you move say to China or North Korea where practicing any religion is officially forbidden. In N. Korea it is illegal to practice Christianity. Those who possess a Bible have to hide in a wall because if caught it means imprisonment or worse. I believe in religious freedom for all people, that is one thing I love about the USA is that we have a gaurenteed freedom of religion. I would not live in Europe for anything. I do not agree with the stance of some Islamic countries where non Muslims especially Christians are not allowed to practice their faith even privately. If I had to live in the Middle East I would prefer to live in either Bahrain or the Gulf states where they are more tolerant of Westerner.
I follow the notion that the majority can decide the extent of religious or any other freedoms. If a parliament or people themselves ban the burqa, I'm fine with it.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The prohibition of the burqa may help fight islamic radicalism for instace, so there is benefit. And that's not the point. the point is that you set the lines where you think they should be and coplain when others set them differently.


It is narrow minded and bigoted to impede on a persons freedom of religion. A Muslim woman has every right to wear her hijab, niqab or burqua if she so chooses. Do you propose that a Muslim woman should have her burqua removed by force if nessecary, to violate her very person? What about these women who wear nothing and you can see everything God gave them? Why dont we push for more indecent exposure laws. I find nude beaches more offensive than a woman in a burqua. I dont want to walk down the street and see some loose woman so scantly clad that her boozies and behind are visable for miles around.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
Very Amusing!
how do u define 'radicalism'? In ur own words, wats it to u?]
Wearing a burqa.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I follow the notion that the majority can decide the extent of religious or any other freedoms. If a parliament or people themselves ban the burqa, I'm fine with it.
They even want to ban the hijab. they tried it before. I wear the hijab and it will be over my dead body before I will remove it for anybody.:raging:
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
No seriously would you ban hoodies. XD
Hoodies are already banned for safety reasons in most places, whereas the niqab isn't. and to answer your question, no I wouldn't.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 04:44 PM
[QUOTE=Whatsthepoint;1178358]Wearing a burqa.[/QUOTE


So you are quick to jump to conclusions? Without even talking to a person or knowing them are quick to label them a symbol of radicalism. I wear the hijab and abaya and I am not oppressed or a radical of any kind.
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Zafran
06-30-2009, 04:44 PM
wearing a Burqa is not radicalism - Teaching that other people who disagree with your own religous/secular views and calling them to be fought is radicalism.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hoodies are already banned for safety reasons in most places, whereas the niqab isn't. and to answer your question, no I wouldn't.
I would like to see Bikinis banned.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
They even want to ban the hijab. they tried it before. I wear the hijab and it will be over my dead body before I will remove it for anybody.:raging:
They banned it in schools which I am opposed to.
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Zafran
06-30-2009, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I would like to see Bikinis banned.
well said!

Peace
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I would like to see Bikinis banned.
Go ahead.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
well said!

Peace
Especially the string ones+o( What kind of woman would wear such a thing? Certainly not one who thinks highly of herself and she makes herself a target to be violated. Rape is about power and control. A rapist will go after a weak person and a woman in a string bikini who must not think much of herself makes an ideal target.
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Muezzin
06-30-2009, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I would like to see Bikinis banned.
I would like to see Mankinis banned.

I am so not joking.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Go ahead.
The liberals would whine and cry about it violating a persons right to self expression.:rollseyes
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I would like to see Mankinis banned.

I am so not joking.
Are those like speedo?
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Especially the string ones+o( What kind of woman would wear such a thing? Certainly not one who thinks highly of herself and she makes herself a target to be violated. Rape is about power and control. A rapist will go after a weak person and a woman in a string bikini who must not think much of herself makes an ideal target.
Well, couldn't you say the same for a burqa wearing woman? she is making herself a target for the islamophobes, nazis etc.
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Muezzin
06-30-2009, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Are those like speedo?
They do more mental damage than the sight of a burqa ever did. Google Image search if you dare.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I would like to see Mankinis banned.

I am so not joking.
LOL, so thats how those are called!
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
The liberals would whine and cry about it violating a persons right to self expression.:rollseyes
Look, if the majority decides to ban the bikini, they can do it. Whether something is banned or not depends on the values of that particular society.
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Zafran
06-30-2009, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
They do more mental damage than the sight of a burqa ever did. Google Image search if you dare.
I agree ban them with the Bikinis.
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Iwant2no2
06-30-2009, 05:00 PM
Does the Quran say women should cover from head to toe? What does it say, can someone paste what the Quran says here..

Thanks!
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Zafran
06-30-2009, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Look, if the majority decides to ban the bikini, they can do it. Whether something is banned or not depends on the values of that particular society.
do you agree that Bikinis and Speedos should be banned.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
do you agree that Bikinis and Speedos should be banned.
hmmm, outside beaches yes.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, couldn't you say the same for a burqa wearing woman? she is making herself a target for the islamophobes, nazis etc.
A woman who chooses to dress conservativly is a woman who respects herself and is sure of herself.. She is less likely to be a target for a rapist than one who dresses vulgarly. A woman who dresses vulagrly does so generally because she wants attention, she is insucure about her own person and a rapist can see that and is more likely to attack her because she is vulnerable. When a hyena goes after a herd of gazelles they prey on the weak ones, not the strong ones.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
hmmm, outside beaches yes.
Even on the beaches !! I grew up on the coast and we always knew whent he Canadians were coming because generally they were the only who wore speedos.
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Zafran
06-30-2009, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
A woman who chooses to dress conservativly is a woman who respects herself and is sure of herself.. She is less likely to be a target for a rapist than one who dresses vulgarly. A woman who dresses vulagrly does so generally because she wants attention, she is insucure about her own person and a rapist can see that and is more likely to attack her because she is vulnerable. When a hyena goes after a herd of gazelles they prey on the weak ones, not the strong ones.
as she is a women I think she knows what shes talking about.

peace
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
A woman who chooses to dress conservativly is a woman who respects herself and is sure of herself.. She is less likely to be a target for a rapist than one who dresses vulgarly. A woman who dresses vulagrly does so generally because she wants attention, she is insucure about her own person and a rapist can see that and is more likely to attack her because she is vulnerable. When a hyena goes after a herd of gazelles they prey on the weak ones, not the strong ones.
That's not true and you can't categorize like that. And why is exposing oneself to rapists worse than exposing yourself to nazis and islamophobes?
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
Does the Quran say women should cover from head to toe? What does it say, can someone paste what the Quran says here..

Thanks!
http://www.islamawareness.net/Hijab/quran_hijab.html


The general consenses is that a woman should cover everything but her face and hands. Some however insist that the niquab is obligatory while other scholars say it is highly reccommended.
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Ansariyah
06-30-2009, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Wearing a burqa.
u are narrow-minded ...sweeping generalizations, doesn't it get tiring?

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I follow the notion that the majority can decide the extent of religious or any other freedoms. If a parliament or people themselves ban the burqa, I'm fine with it.
n quite the Radical conformist:rollseyes
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Even on the beaches !! I grew up on the coast and we always knew whent he Canadians were coming because generally they were the only who wore speedos.
I would only support the principle that each municipality can decide what can and what cannot be worn on its baches.
The same with mosques, wear whatever you want there.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That's not true and you can't categorize like that. And why is exposing oneself to rapists worse than exposing yourself to nazis and islamophobes?
The nazis and islamophobes are just bigots who if they dont hate the Muslims will find someone else to hate. Religious freedom is a human right and that includes giving women the right to wear the burqua and nobody has the right to impede on a persons religious freedom.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
u are narrow-minded ...sweeping generalizations, doesn't it get tiring?



n quite the Radical conformist:rollseyes
I support the will of the people eventhough I may not agree with it. For isnatnce I support prop 8, eventhough I am in favor of gay marriages and everything.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I would only support the principle that each municipality can decide what can and what cannot be worn on its baches.
The same with mosques, wear whatever you want there.
Where I lived string bikinis were banned, but not speedos.+o(
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
The nazis and islamophobes are just bigots who if they dont hate the Muslims will find someone else to hate. Religious freedom is a human right and that includes giving women the right to wear the burqua and nobody has the right to impede on a persons religious freedom.
Rapists are bigots too and they raped hijabis and niqabis as well.
Yes it is, but I have a problem when religious freedom is valued over other freedoms, and a burqa is an example of this (hoodies banned, burqas not, and it symbolyses piosness-overreligiosity in general), so i want it banned in certain places.
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Beardo
06-30-2009, 05:30 PM
I don't want to post the video link, because it'll show support to that youtube vid. It already has enough hits.

But this guy insulsts the Burka so badly, it's just upsetting and it just boils you up. What can ya say...
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Rapists are bigots too and they raped hijabis and niqabis as well.
Yes it is, but I have a problem when religious freedom is valued over other freedoms, and a burqa is an example of this (hoodies banned, burqas not, and it symbolyses piosness-overreligiosity in general), so i want it banned in certain places.


Rapist are not bigots, predators and predators go after the weaker more vulnerable prey. How is someone wearing a burqua infriging on the freedom of others? It seems that some people are uncomfortable with people who wear the burqua or the hijab because they are different, so therefore they want to ban it because it makes them feel 'uncomfortable" even though that person who is wearing the burqua or hijab is not doing anything to infringe on the rights of others.
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by eHafiz
I don't want to post the video link, because it'll show support to that youtube vid. It already has enough hits.

But this guy insulsts the Burka so badly, it's just upsetting and it just boils you up. What can ya say...
I seen girls insult women who wear the Burka. Honestly I find them funny how a piece of cloth can make them so angry.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I seen girls insult women who wear the Burka. Honestly I find them funny how a piece of cloth can make them so angry.
I think it is pathetic, yet it is ok to show ones wares to strangers.:blind:
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aamirsaab
06-30-2009, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by eHafiz
I don't want to post the video link, because it'll show support to that youtube vid. It already has enough hits.

But this guy insulsts the Burka so badly, it's just upsetting and it just boils you up. What can ya say...
Does his name rhyme with Fat Rondell? If so, he's an idiot. And yes, it does boil me up too...freakin hypocritical retards just lap all this crap up.

You know, I'd actually love to see their ''ideal'' system; you know, with all their talk of freedom this and ban that. I really would love to see how such a broken -ass system would work for them. Just so I could be feel smug about it and laugh as their system crumbles within a matter of days...the smart ones would beg for the old system; the ignorant wouldn't realise the new system is broken.

Either way, I'd feel smug.
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Zafran
06-30-2009, 05:45 PM
salaam

I find it scary that his videos get so much hits and people actually take him seriously - thats worrying.

Its like Bin Laden getting a channel.

peace
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Ansariyah
06-30-2009, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Rapist are not bigots, predators and predators go after the weaker more vulnerable prey. How is someone wearing a burqua infriging on the freedom of others? It seems that some people are uncomfortable with people who wear the burqua or the hijab because they are different, so therefore they want to ban it because it makes them feel 'uncomfortable" even though that person who is wearing the burqua or hijab is not doing anything to infringe on the rights of others.
That is so true, people like WTP are just terrified of People who look different. The lack tolerance he's displaying is proof enuff. Imagine if he was a judge, or a president, wudnt the world be doomed. He keeps going on n on about 'Freedom this Freedom that' but the truth is the only freedom he wants is that which suits him, n his like'minded peopl..everyone else is radical, backward, bla bla.:rollseyes
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
That is so true, people like WTP are just terrified of People who look different. The lack tolerance he's displaying is proof enuff. Imagine if he was a judge, or a president, wudnt the world be doomed. He keeps going on n on about 'Freedom this Freedom that' but the truth is the only freedom he wants is that which suits him, n his like'minded peopl..everyone else is radical, backward, bla bla.:rollseyes


Politcal correctness?:rollseyes I dont agree with alot of things, but I tolerate them.
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

I find it scary that his videos get so much hits and people actually take him seriously - thats worrying.

Its like Bin Laden getting a channel.

peace
LOL

Well it would be sad to see the government ban the veil. More paperwork for them and more money being used to enforce this law.

Yays! Spend more public money on stopping people from wearing the veil, rather than spending the money on education and tackling crime. *sighs*
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 05:55 PM
I also wish they would ban the baggy pants that show off ones underware.
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Muezzin
06-30-2009, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by eHafiz
I don't want to post the video link, because it'll show support to that youtube vid. It already has enough hits.

But this guy insulsts the Burka so badly, it's just upsetting and it just boils you up. What can ya say...
Is anything this man is saying stopping women from wearing burqas?

No.
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Ansariyah
06-30-2009, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I also wish they would ban the baggy pants that show off ones underware.
I once saw a group of guys running from the police, My lil baby niece cud out'run them easaaaalyyy. They had the jeans so low they cudnt even lift a foot. One of them acutally hopped like a kangaroo

That's slavery haha.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
I once saw a group of guys running from the police, My lil baby niece cud out'run them easaaaalyyy. They had the jeans so low they cudnt even lift a foot. One of them acutally hopped like a kangaroo

That's slavery haha.
My uncle whos a cop said, dont ban them it makes perps easier to catch:D
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Uthman
06-30-2009, 06:10 PM
Let's stay on-topic people. :)
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Iwant2no2
06-30-2009, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
http://www.islamawareness.net/Hijab/quran_hijab.html


The general consenses is that a woman should cover everything but her face and hands. Some however insist that the niquab is obligatory while other scholars say it is highly reccommended.
But still from what I just read on the verses of the Quran, it still never said anything about a woman covering herself from head to toe and even her face.

Like the first verse says:
· “O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.”
(Quran 7:26).
Children of Adam? That doesn't say "WOMAN" to cover their shame. What is the Quran's meaning of shame? It doesn't say. Children of Adam are everyone, not just women.

· “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not
display their beauty
except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons or their sisters’ sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.”
(Quran 24:31).
Still the above Quran verse says nothing about a woman covering from head to toe! Bosoms are not a woman face.

· “O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.”
(Quran 33:59).
Yet here is another Quran Verse that doesn't say to cover from head to toe. It just says draw their cloaks close around them, when they go abroad.

If it doesn't say in the Quran to cover a womans body from head to toe, then why do the male Muslims tell their women that they have to cover like this? Do you think we could be missing something in the Quran that does say a woman should cover here body from head to toe?

This is very confusing.

I would never let anyone "male or female" tell me what I had to wear or what not to wear. It's my body, I will wear what I want to wear.

Thanks for sharing... :)
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
But still from what I just read on the verses of the Quran, it still never said anything about a woman covering herself from head to toe and even her face.

Like the first verse says:
Children of Adam? That doesn't say "WOMAN" to cover their shame. What is the Quran's meaning of shame? It doesn't say. Children of Adam are everyone, not just women.



Still the above Quran verse says nothing about a woman covering from head to toe! Bosoms are not a woman face.



Yet here is another Quran Verse that doesn't say to cover from head to toe. It just says draw their cloaks close around them, when they go abroad.

If it doesn't say in the Quran to cover a womans body from head to toe, then why do the male Muslims tell their women that they have to cover like this? Do you think we could be missing something in the Quran that does say a woman should cover here body from head to toe?

This is very confusing.

I would never let anyone "male or female" tell me what I had to wear or what not to wear. It's my body, I will wear what I want to wear.

Thanks for sharing... :)


Maybe my Muslim brethern can explain better. And nobody is or would tell you what to wear. A Muslim woman wears the hijab or other covering because she chooses too out of obediance to God.
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Iwant2no2
06-30-2009, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
My uncle whos a cop said, dont ban them it makes perps easier to catch:D
LOL..... I saw on "COPS" TV... A policeman chasing a guy who's pants fell down to his feet, his pants tripped him up, so the cop caught him easily. The policeman was laughing at him so hard, saying; if your pants had fit you right you would have mostlikely outrun me... LOL But please don't stop wearing baggy pants on our account... :)
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Iwant2no2
06-30-2009, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Maybe my Muslim brethern can explain better. And nobody is or would tell you what to wear. A Muslim woman wears the hijab or other covering because she chooses too out of obediance to God.
Ok maybe someone else can explain better.

I was wondering where, and if it's in the Quran that a woman has to wear a hijab, {as you call it}. Since her wearing a hijab is said to be out of the abediance of God, then I would like to read in the Quran where it says she has to wear a hijab that covers her from head to toe.... Are there a verse in the Quran that says this? And is the word hijab in the Quran?


Thanks!!
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 06:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLzg43NNNOM

A video clip on Hijab in the Book Religions.
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Zafran
06-30-2009, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
Ok maybe someone else can explain better.

I was wondering where, and if it's in the Quran that a woman has to wear a hijab, {as you call it}. Since her wearing a hijab is said to be out of the abediance of God, then I would like to read in the Quran where it says she has to wear a hijab that covers her from head to toe.... Are there a verse in the Quran that says this? And is the word hijab in the Quran?


Thanks!!
"33:59 O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - 33-59.

This is the verse that is mostly used - The prophets wifes did wear the Niqab I believe (somebody can correct me with that).
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
That is so true, people like WTP are just terrified of People who look different. The lack tolerance he's displaying is proof enuff. Imagine if he was a judge, or a president, wudnt the world be doomed. He keeps going on n on about 'Freedom this Freedom that' but the truth is the only freedom he wants is that which suits him, n his like'minded peopl..everyone else is radical, backward, bla bla.:rollseyes
Niqab itself is not a problem, only a handful of woen wear it, but it symbolyzes islamic radicalism or fundamentalism if you will and that is the real problem, as well as the growing number of Muslims in Europe.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Politcal correctness?:rollseyes I dont agree with alot of things, but I tolerate them.
Like what?
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Iwant2no2
06-30-2009, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
"33:59 O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - 33-59.

This is the verse that is mostly used - The prophets wifes did wear the Niqab I believe (somebody can correct me with that).

I ask about if the word hijab is in the Quran. I don't see that the words "over-garments" are the same as a jihab. Over-garments still does not say over her face. Also you have given me a Quran verse that is just another translate of the same ones that were given by ragdollcat1982.

I just would like to know, where in the Quran does it say a Woman has to cover from her head to her toes? And where in the Quran does it say that GOD said she has to cover like this? And is word Jihab in the Quran, and what's it's meaning in English? I think those are easy enough questions... :)

Thanks!
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:21 PM
1.Homosexuality
2 Premarital sex
3. Dirt People or rabid enviomentalist
4. Vegans ( only the pushy ones)
5. Alcholics
6. Pitbulls
7. Liberals
This is just to name a few WTP of things I tolerate because they are a fact of life.
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
but it symbolyzes islamic radicalism or fundamentalism
Why?

that is the real problem, as well as the growing number of Muslims in Europe.
Why? How is that a real problem?
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
1.Homosexuality
2 Premarital sex
3. Dirt People or rabid enviomentalist
4. Vegans ( only the pushy ones)
5. Alcholics
6. Pitbulls
7. Liberals
This is just to name a few WTP of things I tolerate because they are a fact of life.
Tolerate, what does that man? Do you just tolerate them or support related legislation, such as same-sex marriage?
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Tolerate, what does that man? Do you just tolerate them or support related legislation, such as same-sex marriage?

I just tolerate them, but in the case of homosexuality and premarital sex I think both are wrong and will never accept them. There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. Tolerance is to put up with while still dissapproving. I under no circumstances support same sex marriage. Marriage is between one man and one woman.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Why?



Why? How is that a real problem?
I don't know, it does.
It is if you want to keep Europe as a christian-secular continent.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't know, it does.
It is if you want to keep Europe as a christian-secular continent.
Europe has the morals of a cock roach because it wants to suppress religion in general.
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- Qatada -
06-30-2009, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
I ask about if the word hijab is in the Quran. I don't see that the words "over-garments" are the same as a jihab. Over-garments still does not say over her face. Also you have given me a Quran verse that is just another translate of the same ones that were given by ragdollcat1982.

I just would like to know, where in the Quran does it say a Woman has to cover from her head to her toes? And where in the Quran does it say that GOD said she has to cover like this? And is word Jihab in the Quran, and what's it's meaning in English? I think those are easy enough questions... :)

Thanks!

There are 2 undisputeable sources in Islamic law, one is the Qur'an, and the other is the Sunnah.

The Sunnah is the guidance revealed to Prophet Muhammad himself, what he did, what he said, and what he approved/disapproved of. His companions understood the religion in the best way, and they implemented it in the best way.

The female companions of Prophet Muhammad, including his wives and women folk wore loose clothing from head to toe. This has been an Islamic dress since the time of Prophet Muhammad, so that is the best guidance.


If you're in doubt about Prophet Muhammad's claim of being the Messenger of God, then i recommend you check this link;

http://www.islamreligion.com/category/118/




Peace.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I just tolerate them, but in the case of homosexuality and premarital sex I think both are wrong and will never accept them. There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. Tolerance is to put up with while still dissapproving.
In some sort of a public referendum would you vote for or against the legalisation of same-sex marriage?
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't know, it does.
Ah....no reason I suppose.

It is if you want to keep Europe as a christian-secular continent.
I don't mind if Europe remains a Christian-secular continent. I don't mind if there is a growing population of Christains in the Middle East.

People are worried about Muslims. There should be worried about recession, global warming and the fact that oil is running out.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
In some sort of a public referendum would you vote for or against the legalisation of same-sex marriage?
I have voted on this matter. I voted in favor of keeping marriage as one man and one woman. In the USA marriage is left to the states. Some states allow gay marriage, most dont and have passed laws or amendments to their state constitution amendments keeping marriage in their respective states as one man and one woman. I am against gay marriage and will oppose laws that permit it.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Ah....no reason I suppose.



I don't mind if Europe remains a Christian-secular continent. I don't mind if there is a growing population of Christains in the Middle East.

People are worried about Muslims. There should be worried about recession, global warming and the fact that oil is running out.
You can't deny the burqa is a symbol, whenever there is talk of islamic oppression, the burqa is brought up and a lot of anti-islamic legislation in Europe thusfar has been in a way connected with it.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I have voted on this matter. I voted in favor of keeping marriage as one man and one woman. In the USA marriage is left to the states. Some states allow gay marriage, most dont and have passed laws or amendments to their state constitution amendments keeping marriage in their respective states as one man and one woman. I am against gay marriage and will oppose laws that permit it.
How is that different from my opposition to burqa in public places?
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- Qatada -
06-30-2009, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You can't deny the burqa is a symbol, whenever there is talk of islamic oppression, the burqa is brought up and a lot of anti-islamic legislation in Europe thusfar has been in a way connected with it.

1) The issue of burqa being freedom or oppression is subjective. If they're so much for freedom and rights, why do they make accusations against women who choose to wear it willingly and force them to remove it?

2) Just because its been in the headlines all this time, that doesn't mean nothing. It just means its been in the headlines.

3) Anti Islamic legislation has even been against hijab, not just the burqa or niqab.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
How is that different from my opposition to burqa in public places?
You are comparing apples and oranges and really starting to stray away from the topic. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve if one looks at it from a religious prespective.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
1) T
3) Anti Islamic legislation has even been against hijab, not just the burqa or niqab.


Try and take off my hijab... I dare anyone to do it. It wont be pretty:raging: Not pretty at all. Asking a woman to remove her hijab is the same thing as asking a woman to take off her top.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
You are comparing apples and oranges and really starting to stray away from the topic. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve if one looks at it from a religious prespective.
Good made people with face, and he made them naked!
And it's not apples and oranges, it's religios freedom geeting special treatment over other freedoms.
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- Qatada -
06-30-2009, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Try and take off my hijab... I dare anyone to do it. It wont be pretty:raging: Not pretty at all. Asking a woman to remove her hijab is the same thing as asking a woman to take off her top.

It's good you don't live in France, or Tunisia, or other colonialised Muslim countries. :)
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
1) The issue of burqa being freedom or oppression is subjective. If they're so much for freedom and rights, why do they make accusations against women who choose to wear it willingly and force them to remove it?

2) Just because its been in the headlines all this time, that doesn't mean nothing. It just means its been in the headlines.

3) Anti Islamic legislation has even been against hijab, not just the burqa or niqab.
I know women wear it willingly and I'm not saying it is oppressive, I'm saying it symbolyzes heavily practicing Muslims, Islamic funamentalism which I personally do not want increased in Europe.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
It's good you don't live in France, or Tunisia, or other colonialised Muslim countries. :)
What about Turkey? and was the hijab banned in Tunisia during the French rule?
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Good made people with face, and he made them naked!
And it's not apples and oranges, it's religios freedom geeting special treatment over other freedoms.
What freedom? In America people can be as gay as they want. When we have the first bitter gay celebrity divorce here then this gay marriage nonsense will be put to rest. It is unnatural to be homosexual.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I know women wear it willingly and I'm not saying it is oppressive, I'm saying it symbolyzes heavily practicing Muslims, Islamic funamentalism which I personally do not want increased in Europe.

What is wrong with being a "heavily practicing" Muslim what ever that may be. What have Muslims done to you? You are really being bigoted.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
It's good you don't live in France, or Tunisia, or other colonialised Muslim countries. :)
I would fight for my right to wear hijab and practice my faith. Civil disobediance .
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
What is wrong with being a "heavily practicing" Muslim what ever that may be. What have Muslims done to you? You are really being bigoted.
Nothing wrong with it but I would hate to see practicing Muslims have an impact on my country's or european politics.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
What freedom? In America people can be as gay as they want. When we have the first bitter gay celebrity divorce here then this gay marriage nonsense will be put to rest. It is unnatural to be homosexual.
In this case the freedom to marry a loved person, the thing is you can't tolerate same sex-marriage and Mr Sarkozy can't tolerate the burqas.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
In this case the freedom to marry a loved person, the thing is you can't tolerate same sex-marriage and Mr Sarkozy can't tolerate the burqas.

If the peopel vote in favor of it I will tolerate it, but I dont have to like it. The French have always been weird anyway.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Nothing wrong with it but I would hate to see practicing Muslims have an impact on my country's or european politics.
:rollseyes:enough!:
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'Abd-al Latif
06-30-2009, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Good made people with face, and he made them naked! I think you meant God?
And it's not apples and oranges, it's religios freedom geeting special treatment over other freedoms.
He created them and then clothed them as an adornment and a screen from their private parts. Even Adam and Eve wore clothes [except of course if one believes his father was a monkey]. Exposing ones body or any form of "public nakedness" isn't part of the natural state of man. Just as it isn't the the natural state of man to relieve himself when naturel calls in public.

Even a child who has reached the age of understanding feels shame if he is uncothed in the presense of others.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
:rollseyes:enough!:
would you like your state taken over by french liberals?
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
He created them and then clothed them as an adornment and a screen from their private parts. Even Adam and Eve wore clothes. Exposing ones body or "public nakedness" isn't part of the natural state of man. Just as it isn't the the natural state of man to relieve himself when naturel calls in public.

Even a child who has reached the age of understanding feels shame if he is uncothed in the presense of others.
In the bible they were only aware of their nakedness after they had eaten from the forbidden tree, or so I remember from my Sunday school...
The attitute to nudity seems to be socially aquired, people in the Amazon or Africa don't seem to mind walking around naked.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
would you like your state taken over by french liberals?
Muslims are not going to take over France, they are folks and just want to be able to practice their religion in peace and a burqua doesnt impede on your right to do as you wish. You are uncomfortable with it because of what you think it represents. I suggest you learn to find comfort with your discomfort.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
If the peopel vote in favor of it I will tolerate it, but I dont have to like it. The French have always been weird anyway.
Well, the same with me, I can tolerate burqa but I would rather see it banned.
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ragdollcat1982
06-30-2009, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, the same with me, I can tolerate burqa but I would rather see it banned.
Of course you would, bet you dont mind the naked beaches though right?:rollseyes
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Muslims are not going to take over France, they are folks and just want to be able to practice their religion in peace and a burqua doesnt impede on your right to do as you wish. You are uncomfortable with it because of what you think it represents. I suggest you learn to find comfort with your discomfort.
Perhaps they will.
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'Abd-al Latif
06-30-2009, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Nothing wrong with it but I would hate to see practicing Muslims have an impact on my country's or european politics.
What do you have against Islam/Muslims?

The veil? You're a man aren't you? You're telling you wouldn't feel any jealousy if another man looked at the precious pearl that is your wife? I'm sure if your woman ever covered up you would be even more protective over her then you've ever been.

I love that the veil is a religious obligation. I could never stand the thought of another man laying his eyes on my wife.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Of course you would, bet you dont mind the naked beaches though right?:rollseyes
Of course I don't. I don't mind burqas in mosques either.
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'Abd-al Latif
06-30-2009, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
In the bible they were only aware of their nakedness after they had eaten from the forbidden tree, or so I remember from my Sunday school...
The attitute to nudity seems to be socially aquired, people in the Amazon or Africa don't seem to mind walking around naked.
Nope. The attitude of nudity stem from perverted hearts. When a man loses his sense of honour all he ever does is stare at that which he will never get. Though such a man is alive and eating, his heart is dead because such a heart is filled with desires for things that will never bring him happiness except for a few brief moments.
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Whatsthepoint
06-30-2009, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Nope. The attitude of nudity stem from perverted hearts. When a man loses his sense of honour all he ever does is stare at that which he will never get. Though such a man is alive and eating, his heart is dead because such a heart is filled with desires for things that will never bring him happiness except for a few brief moments.
No what I'm saying is that people are naked in those areas, nudity is not a taboo or arousing in itself.
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
What do you have against Islam/Muslims?
.
He thinks we Muslims are going to take over the world.
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Iwant2no2
06-30-2009, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Of course you would, bet you dont mind the naked beaches though right?:rollseyes
About 4 years ago, I was walking on a beach in Florida. I walked up on a lot of people sun bathing in the nude. About 200 people or so. Now that was sight, LOL... I had never seen anything quite like this before. There were men, women and kids there. Seems everyone had been sunbathing in the nude all their lives and thought nothing of it, seemed to be away of life for all of them. No one there were gaulking at eachother, they all seem to have been having a nice time. I guess if it's a way of someones life, then to these people they have nothing against it. I have always thought "too each their own". It's none of my business anyway. Sometimes I just like to know why people do things in theirs lives and their cultures, and I ask questions to try to get answers, but it seems I can't get a straight answer about the hijab, maybe they don't have a straight answer, that's why I am not getting the answer. Ok, like I said: Too each their own... :)

Have a good day.
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
No one there were gaulking at eachother,
Can you really speak for everyone on that beach?
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'Abd-al Latif
06-30-2009, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
Sometimes I just like to know why people do things in theirs lives and their cultures, and I ask questions to try to get answers, but it seems I can't get a straight answer about the hijab, maybe they don't have a straight answer, that's why I am not getting the answer. Ok, like I said: Too each their own... :)

Have a good day.
What straight answer are you looking for?
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GuestFellow
06-30-2009, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
What straight answer are you looking for?
Maybe he needs to phrase his question better.
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Muezzin
06-30-2009, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
About 4 years ago, I was walking on a beach in Florida. I walked up on a lot of people sun bathing in the nude. About 200 people or so.
Are you sure you didn't just stumble upon the naturist beach?
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The_Prince
06-30-2009, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
He thinks we Muslims are going to take over the world.
well he is right, we are, MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. burqa and lashings for everyone soonnnnnnn, only halal.
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Look, if the majority decides to ban the bikini, they can do it. Whether something is banned or not depends on the values of that particular society.
So the majority will tell you what is moral?
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
well he is right, we are, MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. burqa and lashings for everyone soonnnnnnn, only halal.
LOOL.

In the future..... There is only... HALAL!! Dun dun dun!
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
About 4 years ago, I was walking on a beach in Florida. I walked up on a lot of people sun bathing in the nude. About 200 people or so. Now that was sight, LOL... I had never seen anything quite like this before. There were men, women and kids there. Seems everyone had been sunbathing in the nude all their lives and thought nothing of it, seemed to be away of life for all of them. No one there were gaulking at eachother, they all seem to have been having a nice time. I guess if it's a way of someones life, then to these people they have nothing against it. I have always thought "too each their own". It's none of my business anyway. Sometimes I just like to know why people do things in theirs lives and their cultures, and I ask questions to try to get answers, but it seems I can't get a straight answer about the hijab, maybe they don't have a straight answer, that's why I am not getting the answer. Ok, like I said: Too each their own... :)

Have a good day.
First, are you proposing that the solution to gawking is to strip everyone naked?

Second, nudists are far far far from the majority. So their own mental state doesn't represent a whole people. For all you know, only people of a certain mindset go there.

Third, if desensitization is you answer to life's problems, then I guess movies and videogames should be up to their necks in gore, violence, cursing, and sex. Just so we don't notice it anymore right?
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AntiKarateKid
06-30-2009, 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
In this case the freedom to marry a loved person, the thing is you can't tolerate same sex-marriage and Mr Sarkozy can't tolerate the burqas.
One has health disadvantages the other doesn't. Don't make me pull out statistics.
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-01-2009, 05:20 AM
@Whats the point: geez just cos you're paranoid about the burqa, i don’t see why women should take it off...how funny! Making someone else change their life style for your own hang up!


Originally Posted by Foxhole
They look like objects to you because they are objects to you.
no, they look like objects, because they make themselves objects...

Not to me. A woman should be free to dress as she pleases, and most women want to look attractive.
you can look attractive without throwing yourself and your dignity out!

Who am I to deny her that right? Who are you to deny her that right? Who is anybody to deny her that right?
who is anybody to deny a muslim woman her right to wear the burqa/niqaab?

Do you like dressing modestly? Good for you. Feel free. Dress modestly. But don't call women "objects".
no one calls women objects more than those who make them selves objects...they bring it on themselves. no-one respects a woman until and unless she respects herself... and if she doesn't, then she has no one to blame expect her self. thats the way it goes. you teach others to treat you!

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I just don't want islamic morals to have any influence whatsoever in european politics.
wow, what a classic display of paranoia...


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, couldn't you say the same for a burqa wearing woman? she is making herself a target for the islamophobes, nazis etc.
id rather be harassed for wearing the burqa than to be harassed by some man satisfying his natural instinct. +o(


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
And why is exposing oneself to rapists worse than exposing yourself to nazis and islamophobes?
becuase getting raped would be alot more mentally and emotionally damaging...i cant believe you're even comparing the 2...


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Niqab itself is not a problem, only a handful of woen wear it, but it symbolyzes islamic radicalism or fundamentalism if you will and that is the real problem, as well as the growing number of Muslims in Europe.
how can something that is apart of Islam be extreme...islam condemns extremism, so do your self a favor and get your facts straight before you point the finger...

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You can't deny the burqa is a symbol, whenever there is talk of islamic oppression, the burqa is brought up and a lot of anti-islamic legislation in Europe thusfar has been in a way connected with it.
so? why should we suffer for somebody else's hang up? if they dont like a Muslim women in a burqa, what it got to do with her? how is it her fault other people see her as oppressed? why dont they get their heads outta CNN and other anti Islamic rubbish media and use their own brains and judge for themselves. funny how you haven't blamed them...just becuase they are too influenced by the media, doesn't mean the frown should be on the Muslim woman...

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I know women wear it willingly and I'm not saying it is oppressive, I'm saying it symbolyzes heavily practicing Muslims, Islamic funamentalism which I personally do not want increased in Europe.
so, get out of Europe then? not rocket science...

Originally Posted by Iwant2no2
No one there were gaulking at eachother,
people dont usually gawk at each other when others are looking at them.

I guess if it's a way of someones life, then to these people they have nothing against it.
I have always thought "too each their own". It's none of my business anyway. Sometimes I just like to know why people do things in theirs lives and their cultures, and I ask questions to try to get answers, but it seems I can't get a straight answer about the hijab, maybe they don't have a straight answer, that's why I am not getting the answer. Ok, like I said: Too each their own... :)

Have a good day.
wow, aren't you cunning! frowning upon the hijab, and dressing it up as "each to their own/its the way society goes" with a nice "smile" to put the icing the cake!
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
So the majority will tell you what is moral?
No, but the majority decides what is allowed and what isn't.
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
One has health disadvantages the other doesn't. Don't make me pull out statistics.
Not really, quite the opposite actually, and the other brings social unrest, disharmony and by banning it we will save at least a few women that don't wear it by their own will.
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HopeFul
07-01-2009, 09:41 AM
whatsthepoint, I think your major problem is that you don't like islam to be spread in europe, I think that is the genral problem. The west doesn't want Islam to spread there. It only wants Islam to be limited to certan countries/continents.

Well. te truth will always spread. It is like a fragrance, it will go wherever the wind takes it. You cannot limit Islam.

Furthermore i think that's the way it has been for some time, perhaps for our fathers generations, but even before this, a few centuries ago Islam was everywhere, and it will come back, better get used to it...

Besides, how can one think that globalisation will only propagate wester ideas and morals in the east, there will always be an exchange.

France has a bad case of mis judgement. They brought in loads and loads of muslims ( cheap labour? looking down on colonies?) to rebuild it after the world war 2, gave them the right to stay and since they were mainly poor people deprived of lots of things all they ahd was cling to Allah and Islam, in my ventures and stays I have found french muslims to be waaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger in faith, I have seen burqa women from paris to starsbourd to a small town like Colmar. Not many but definately seen. They will live as they want. Today those people and more immigrants coming in form a vital part of the society, doctors, engineers , lawyer, what not. MashaAllah.

How can you not let someone freely practice their religion or way of life and put restrictions on them. There will be huge uprising if they went ahead and put the ban on burqa.

As for not liking Islam in europe, the earth belongs to Allah and He will take Islam wherever he wants!
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bewildred
07-01-2009, 09:42 AM
Hello y'all,

The initial topic starter was that the french authorities are about to ban full dress up veil. Some Muslims find it nonsensical but in a more practical way of thinking and bearing in mind the Islam vs the whole world complexities, I find this decision pretty comprehensible.

Last week, I had to tutor a young woman for a major exam. I was already informed that she wears Niqab. It was ok since she had to prove to me her identity which is mandatory before every exam. But from te very second we met, there was a major conflict that was growing in intensity. In fact, she did show me a piece of ID paper but refused to show her face to me. Since we were a couple of female teachers monitoring her, I couln't understand why she felt so aggressive. She insulted me for being and started a whole debate about the place of female Muslims in pseudo Islamic societies. The situation had gone to extremes and I had to tutor four other students after her. Her time was over. So, she felt like a great injustice was organized against her an now was the conspiracy theory for she was the only one wearing niqab. When the situation became utterly unbearable, the oldest of the female teachers took her apart and ORDERED her to show at least her face. The girl went in a kind of transe. The fact is that she was the elder sister of the student who was to have her exam audition! No need to tell you about the sanctions that were sentenced against the girl.....

I know that it is an isolated case, but in an empirical society such as the French, I think it's comprehensible.
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by HopeFul
whatsthepoint, I think your major problem is that you don't like islam to be spread in europe, I think that is the genral problem. The west doesn't want Islam to spread there. It only wants Islam to be limited to certan countries/continents.

Well. te truth will always spread. It is like a fragrance, it will go wherever the wind takes it. You cannot limit Islam.

Furthermore i think that's the way it has been for some time, perhaps for our fathers generations, but even before this, a few centuries ago Islam was everywhere, and it will come back, better get used to it...

Besides, how can one think that globalisation will only propagate wester ideas and morals in the east, there will always be an exchange.

France has a bad case of mis judgement. They brought in loads and loads of muslims ( cheap labour? looking down on colonies?) to rebuild it after the world war 2, gave them the right to stay and since they were mainly poor people deprived of lots of things all they ahd was cling to Allah and Islam, in my ventures and stays I have found french muslims to be waaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger in faith, I have seen burqa women from paris to starsbourd to a small town like Colmar. Not many but definately seen. They will live as they want. Today those people and more immigrants coming in form a vital part of the society, doctors, engineers , lawyer, what not. MashaAllah.

How can you not let someone freely practice their religion or way of life and put restrictions on them. There will be huge uprising if they went ahead and put the ban on burqa.

As for not liking Islam in europe, the earth belongs to Allah and He will take Islam wherever he wants!
There was no uprising when a much more serious ban was enacted, the law on religious symbols in schools. There were a couple of protests, nothing more. Only a few hundred women wear the burqa, it doesn't really have to be banned, there are more pressing issues as far as islamic raicalism is concerned, mainly foreign preachers and immigration, but banning the burqa, as a symbol, is a start. and as I mentioned before, hoodies are banned, niqabis not, so the ban will do away with double standards. you're correct, I wouldn't want europe to bcome an islamic state. I don't mind Muslims in general, hijabis whatever, as long as they're the minority.
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HopeFul
07-01-2009, 10:09 AM
There is a major difference in the hoody and the burqa.

the hoody is a way of dressing solely,a style, maybe it signifies something, that I'm cool or a rapper or whatever, but the burqa is a totally different thing.

It is worn to please the Lord, it is obligatory.
It is like a uniform in school, which MUSt be worn.

Europe may not become an islamic state/continent but muslims will live there. I think Im a practising muslim, I live in europe, I have three kids and I'm thinking to have at least three more InshaAllah when im older and all of them will also live in europe whereas all my europeans friends have one or two kids. When mine grow up, Im sure the girls will wear burqas or hijabs and the boys will have beards, InshaAllah and Ims ure they will call to Islam many other people,and Im sure if they even just inheret what we give them, they'll be well off. If you want to compete, better have more kids, because otherwise Islam will spread and spread and spread.

InshaAllah.

peace!

( maybe you should consider yoruself becoming a muslim too! )
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by HopeFul
There is a major difference in the hoody and the burqa.

the hoody is a way of dressing solely,a style, maybe it signifies something, that I'm cool or a rapper or whatever, but the burqa is a totally different thing.

It is worn to please the Lord, it is obligatory.
It is like a uniform in school, which MUSt be worn.
It's double standards, either hoodies are allowed or burqas banned.
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'Abd-al Latif
07-01-2009, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's double standards, either hoodies are allowed or burqas banned.
Oh don't be ridiculous. There's a big difference between a hoody and a burqa.

What's your issue with the burqa anyway. You're country preaches freedom right? Or is it all that just a hoax to imprison people to the tyranny of dictatorship?
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HopeFul
07-01-2009, 10:22 AM
I already said, there is a difference of reason behind wearing the both things. It is not double standards, if the french gov bans the black coluor, fine, thats ok, it is a matter of choice, like the hoodie but if it bans the covering of face, thats something else, it is not a matter of style, it is a religious duty. No one can ban people from performing their religious duties.

And if you still dont understand .. :D

peace!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by HopeFul
I already said, there is a difference of reason behind wearing the both things. It is not double standards, if the french gov bans the black coluor, fine, thats ok, it is a matter of choice, like the hoodie but if it bans the covering of face, thats something else, it is not a matter of style, it is a religious duty. No one can ban people from performing their religious duties.

And if you still dont understand .. :D

peace!
Religion is a choice to, following the minority of scholars too.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Oh don't be ridiculous. There's a big difference between a hoody and a burqa.

What's your issue with the burqa anyway. You're country preaches freedom right? Or is it all that just a hoax to imprison people to the tyranny of dictatorship?
Tacking all sorts of radicalism is necessary, be it nazism, islamism, evangelism.
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Muezzin
07-01-2009, 10:56 AM
So nobody else has come to the obvious conclusion that this whole debate is an attempt by the French government to distract its people from the global economic situation?

‘Don’t hate us, hate those sheets of cloth people wear!’
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
07-01-2009, 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Tacking all sorts of radicalism is necessary, be it nazism, islamism, evangelism.
Redicalism?? These are the fundimentalism of Islam! In case you don't know what fundimental means and you've been educated by the TV then let be break it down for you. The word 'fundimental' means 'basics'.

serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fundamental

It's a well known fact that there are two opinions concerning the full veil (i.e. including face veil) in Islam. 1) It's highly recommended 2) it's obligatory.

There isn't much difference from the Niqab and the Burqa. The niqab is just a small piece of cloth which is around 6x12 which covers the face while the burqa is the same thing except it's one long piece of covering which basically does the same job as the niqab.

All this time you've been on an Islamic forum and you still cant distingush between the Islamic teachings from the Qur'an and Sunnah and CNN? Concern yourself with the women of your own family.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
So nobody else has come to the obvious conclusion that this whole debate is an attempt by the French government to distract its people from the global economic situation?

‘Don’t hate us, hate those sheets of cloth people wear!’
I don0t think the government initiated the debate.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Redicalism?? These are the fundimentalism of Islam! In case you don't know what fundimental means and you've been educated by the TV then let be break it down for you. The world 'fundimental' means 'basics'.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fundamental

It's a well known fact that there are two opinions concerning the full veil (i.e. including face veil) in Islam. 1) It's highly recommended 2) it's obligatory.

There isn't much difference from the Niqab and the Burqa. The niqab is just a small piece of cloth which around 6x12 which covers the face while the burqa is the same thing except it's one long piece of covering which basically does the same job as the niqab.

All this time you've been on an Islamic forum and you still cant distingush between the Islamic teachings from the Qur'an and Sunnah and CNN?
I don't like fundamentalism either and fundamentalism and radicalism do not necessary exclude themselves, some niqab wearing women are radical in bringing back the foundations of islam, they are radical fundies.
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Muezzin
07-01-2009, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don0t think the government initiated the debate.
I don't think that's stopping them using it in the manner I described.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
07-01-2009, 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't like fundamentalism either and fundamentalism and radicalism do not necessary exclude themselves, some niqab wearing women are radical in bringing back the foundations of islam, they are radical fundies.
And I suppose the countless forms of prevalent crime, corruption in families (adultry, wild teenagers, careless parents, young pregnant trashy women etc) and society (bribery, alcohol related crimes, gambeling etc) today is your ideal world?
Reply

GuestFellow
07-01-2009, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
well he is right, we are, MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. burqa and lashings for everyone soonnnnnnn, only halal.
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
LOOL.

In the future..... There is only... HALAL!! Dun dun dun!
LOL XD


Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
First, are you proposing that the solution to gawking is to strip everyone naked?
Can you really blame him? XD

Third, if desensitization is you answer to life's problems, then I guess movies and videogames should be up to their necks in gore, violence, cursing, and sex. Just so we don't notice it anymore right?
They sure wouldn't like that.


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's double standards, either hoodies are allowed or burqas banned.
Fine ban both. They both do the same thing, hide your identity. I'm sure Westerners would not mind.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
07-01-2009, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No, but the majority decides what is allowed and what isn't.
just cos its the majority, doesnt make it correct?!

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Not really, quite the opposite actually, and the other brings social unrest, disharmony and by banning it we will save at least a few women that don't wear it by their own will.
why are you so insecure and making such a big deal about a minority!

Originally Posted by bewildred
Hello y'all,

Last week, I had to tutor a young woman for a major exam. I was already informed that she wears Niqab. It was ok since she had to prove to me her identity which is mandatory before every exam. But from te very second we met, there was a major conflict that was growing in intensity. In fact, she did show me a piece of ID paper but refused to show her face to me. Since we were a couple of female teachers monitoring her, I couln't understand why she felt so aggressive. She insulted me for being and started a whole debate about the place of female Muslims in pseudo Islamic societies. The situation had gone to extremes and I had to tutor four other students after her. Her time was over. So, she felt like a great injustice was organized against her an now was the conspiracy theory for she was the only one wearing niqab. When the situation became utterly unbearable, the oldest of the female teachers took her apart and ORDERED her to show at least her face. The girl went in a kind of transe. The fact is that she was the elder sister of the student who was to have her exam audition! No need to tell you about the sanctions that were sentenced against the girl.....

I know that it is an isolated case, but in an empirical society such as the French, I think it's comprehensible.
whats the niqaab got to do with the way a niqabi sister may act? they are completely two different issues. banning it as a whole because of how the minority act, is blowing things out of proportion. :)
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'Abd-al Latif
07-01-2009, 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
why are you so insecure and making such a big deal about a minority!
He might be feeling something deep down in his heart the saying of Allah:

..."How oft, by Allah's will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? Allah is with those who steadfastly persevere." [Surah al-Baqarah 2:249]
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
And I suppose the countless forms of prevalent crime, corruption in families (adultry, wild teenagers, careless parents, young pregnant trashy women etc) and society (bribery, alcohol related crimes, gambeling etc) today is your ideal world?
no, it isn't.
My ideal world would be some sort of ultraliberal semi-socialism.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
why are you so insecure and making such a big deal about a minority!
Because it's obvious you are growing much faster than the rest of society.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
07-01-2009, 12:10 PM
^ errr why does/should a niqaabi suffer because of your insecurity?! since when was that a legit reason to ban it? what rubbish!
on the side: yay! power to the niqaabis :shade:
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'Abd-al Latif
07-01-2009, 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
no, it isn't.
My ideal world would be some sort of ultraliberal semi-socialism.
The reality is you are faced with two extremes. To protect and preserve the honour and chastity of your women and society by teaching them Islam which will oblidge them to observe the veil - I call this extreme because this practice is extremely beautiful - or to face the other extreme where men and women will lose their sense of dignity where everything is ok as long as my base desires are forfilled.

The lattar is the reality of the world today.
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'Abd-al Latif
07-01-2009, 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Because it's obvious you are growing much faster than the rest of society.
Aww thanks! We don't die, we multiply to recieve praise from our Prophet (saaws)
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The reality is you are faced with two extremes. To protect and preserve the honour and chastity of your women and society by teaching them Islam which will oblidge them to observe the veil - I call this extreme because this practice is extremely beautiful - or to face the other extreme where men and women will lose their sense of dignity where everything is ok as long as my base desires are forfilled.

The lattar is the reality of the world today.
If you say so, but anyway today's society is not my ideal, though it is closest to it.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
^ errr why does/should a niqaabi suffer because of your insecurity?! since when was that a legit reason to ban it? what rubbish!
on the side: yay! power to the niqaabis :shade:
A lot f people suffer due to other people's insecurities, but here it's also a safety concern as well as double standards for hoodies.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
07-01-2009, 12:40 PM
A lot f people suffer due to other people's insecurities,
and that makes it any more correct?

but here it's also a safety concern
to who?

as well as double standards for hoodies.
you only use that hoodie excuse as a "scapegoat" to support your own injustice. its got nothing to do with the hoodie or even the niqqab its about your ridiculous insecrity and paranoia's about islam growing and takng over the world and the niqaab/burka is one of the many ways it can..you anti islamists make me laugh.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
and that makes it any more correct?


to who?


you only use that hoodie excuse as a "scapegoat" to support your own injustice. its got nothing to do with the hoodie or even the niqqab its about your ridiculous insecrity and paranoia's about islam growing and takng over the world and the niqaab/burka is one of the many ways it can..you anti islamists make me laugh.
Considering how its conservatives demanding libral laws for themselves, yes.
to passers-by
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-01-2009, 12:55 PM
to passers-by
whats it got to do with them? how id having your face covered any more threatening than having for eg, your ankle covered? the more niqaabis are around, the more people will become accustomed to it, and therefore will see that there is nothing threatening about them. therefore, the proposal to ban is an illegitimate one.
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GuestFellow
07-01-2009, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
whats it got to do with them? how id having your face covered any more threatening than having for eg, your ankle covered? the more niqaabis are around, the more people will become accustomed to it, and therefore will see that there is nothing threatening about them. therefore, the proposal to ban is an illegitimate one.
I find it amusing people are scared of women with the full veil, and even considering they are a minority.
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ragdollcat1982
07-01-2009, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I find it amusing people are scared of women with the full veil, and even considering they are a minority.
Its because it is "different " and that makes them uncomfortable. So instead of having an open mind and at least tolerate it if not accept it as a fact they choose to act like a bunch of xenophobes and persecute those who arent keeping the status quo.
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
whats it got to do with them? how id having your face covered any more threatening than having for eg, your ankle covered? the more niqaabis are around, the more people will become accustomed to it, and therefore will see that there is nothing threatening about them. therefore, the proposal to ban is an illegitimate one.
Why are hoodies band then?
there's no face recognition and you can carry a bomb.
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Muezzin
07-01-2009, 04:50 PM
Hoodies aren't banned by the government, unless I'm wrong.

They are banned in certain British shopping centres however.
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Ansariyah
07-01-2009, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Of course I don't. I don't mind burqas in mosques either.
Islam's growing in the west, sooner or later things like this will fade into distant memory. You are talking that we have to listen to the majority, InshaAllah we'll become the Majorty, because as more people like u support gay+marriages, Muslims are making babies.
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
Islam's growing in the west, sooner or later things like this will fade into distant memory. You are talking that we have to listen to the majority, InshaAllah we'll become the Majorty, because as more people like u support gay+marriages, Muslims are making babies.
If all Muslim immigration were to cease and all foreign preachers expelled and the society going as it is, Muslims probably wouldn't become the majority, yes birth rats are higher but the ratio is decreasing and not all of your youth are going to mosques.
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bewildred
07-01-2009, 05:31 PM
Just curious...... Is the Niqab a norm in Islam?
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Ansariyah
07-01-2009, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Why are hoodies band then?
there's no face recognition and you can carry a bomb.
I don't know why they are banned, but Hoodies are associated wit Gangstarizm. Whereas a woman in Niqaab is doing so out of Faith, Modesty, Humility.
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
I don't know why they are banned, but Hoodies are associated wit Gangstarizm. Whereas a woman in Niqaab is doing so out of Faith, Modesty, Humility.
Hoodies are not gangsters and niqaabs are associated with islamic radicalism. The government should treat them the same, they pose a safety concern.
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Whatsthepoint
07-01-2009, 05:48 PM
where in this thread have I done the following:
Attacks against Islam including attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), his family and companions, or any other prophets in Islam, or Islamic scholars, past or present.
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AntiKarateKid
07-01-2009, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Yanoorah
I don't know why they are banned, but Hoodies are associated wit Gangstarizm. Whereas a woman in Niqaab is doing so out of Faith, Modesty, Humility.
LOL. I'm really sorry sis, but "gangstarizm" made me laugh! Anyways, true alot of wannabe thugs and thugs wear hoodies but many many many people wear hoodies because they like them. Moreover thugs wear baggy pants, sleeveless, undershirts, and basketball sneakers and.... I kinda wear some of those things myself. :exhausted

But I don't get an urge to throw my arms up in the air and rap down the street, pickpocketing as I go with a boombox on my left shoulder. LOL! [BANANA]YO AKK IS IN DA HOUSE![/BANANA]
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Ansariyah
07-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hoodies are not gangsters and niqaabs are associated with islamic radicalism. The government should treat them the same, they pose a safety concern.
All hoodies aren't gangsters, I know that. But u have no right to call women who fear their lord, who are mothers, raise children, Sisters, daughters, wives, who do wat all women do, LIVE their life. U have no right to label them as Radicals, just because u are NOT man enuff to stop being scared of wats different. Stop being so terrified..'Man'.
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'Abd-al Latif
07-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hoodies are not gangsters and niqaabs are associated with islamic radicalism. The government should treat them the same, they pose a safety concern.
Look, let me make this clear to you if you didn't get my point earlier.

The Niqab/Hijab/Veil or whatever you want to call it is a fundimental part of Islam. There is no disagreement even amongst those sects who associate themselves with Islam with regard to the veil as an Islamic practice! If you want to continously address this problem as 'radicalism' then you are taking this entire faith along with it's followers as 'radicals'. I urge you to open up and look past your resctricted views and to see the reality of the veil as opposed to what you see on CNN.

As I asked you before in my post which you didn't reply in; you're a man aren't you? Why don't you take your women to a bar and let the men there stare at them for a while and you'll eventually come to understand why God enforced the veil as a religious obligation!

Let's get one thing clear. Muslim women are not cheap products to be on display for every man with a sick and perverted heart to stare at. They are precious pearls whose dignity and chastity is of priceless value to muslims. Concern yourself with the women of your own family.

For crying out loud Get over it, it's just a veil!

This thread has officially become pointless.

:threadclo
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