What does Islam say about wealth and heaven?

[Great I am not]

Can a rich Church or man or Mosques get into heaven?

Christians do not seem to live their religion as it pertains to wealth.

Matthew 19:23
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

There seems to be a theme throughout scripture that says that wealth is not a good thing yet the Church amasses wealth for it’s own sake and glorification.

Can a Church that does not practice what it preaches lead us to heaven or is wealth actually a good thing.

What comes to mind is Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail.
In selecting the cup of Christ, the proper cup was the poor man’s cup. In contrast, if asked to select the cup of the Church, he would have selected the riches cup.

One has to wonder if the Church is right or if Jesus was.
Many say they have faith in Jesus but few follow His line of thought when their wealth is in question.

Would God reject our rich Church?
Is our Church imperfect because of it’s wealth?
Will God reject the rich man?

Does Islam have the same view of wealth?

Your thoughts?

Regards
DL

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Hey.

In Islam, it is our responsibility to earn and spend wealth through permissible means by spending on yourself and others that you are responsible for but not excessively.
Prophet Muhammad(saw) said:

"A slave will not be able to take a step further on the Day of Requital until he is taken to account for [the following things]: his time and how he spent it, his knowledge and how he used it, his money and how he earned and spent it, and his youth and how he passed it. (Tirmidhi).

Allah(swt) also says in Surah Baqarah verse 177:

"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves."

In Islam, wealth belongs to Allah but Allah has entrusted it to mankind to use wisely and not wastefully. For those who have been blessed with wealth, it is a test, therefore, Muslims should strive to pass this test by not hoarding this wealth.

An important example of this would be "Zakah." Zakah is a portion of one’s wealth that should be given to the poor or to other important causes. It is the third of five pillars in Islam and obligatory for all those are financially capable.

The Qur’an warns us about the danger of piling up wealth to the extent it influences us negatively.

“Woe to every scandalmonger and backbiter
Who pileth up wealth and layeth it by
Thinking that his wealth would make him last forever
By no means! He will be sure to be thrown into that which breaks to Pieces.”
(Al-Humazah 104: 1-4)

In Surah al-Taubah, chapter 9, verse 24, Allah Ta'ala says,

“Say, if it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred, or the wealth that you have gained, the commerce in which you are fear a decline, or dwellings in which you are delight, are dearer to you than Allah or His Messenger, or striving in His cause, than wait until Allah brings about His decision; and Allah guides not to the rebellious,”

What the poor must get from the wealth of the rich is not charity but their right, of which they may be deprived from.

"And in their property was a portion due to him who begs and to him who is denied (good)." (51:19)


"And those in whose wealth there is a fixed portion, for him who begs and for him who is denied (good)." (70:24-25)

Those who spend their wealth wisely and with the intent of benefiting mankind, they are those who are successful in the sight of God.

[glo]

I can't speak for Islam, but I agree with you that Christians in the wealthy West are certainly managing to ignore Jesus' teachings on the poor and wealth quite successfully.
Not just rich churches, but as individuals we do too ... :-[

I am reminded about Jesus' advice to the rich young man to 'sell all his possessions and follow him'.

How many rich Christians are willing to do that?

Imagine the Vatican/Church of England/other wealthy churches sold their riches and gave the proceeds to the poor ...

[- IqRa -]

A simple quote came to mind - Allah does not look at your wealth but he looks at your hearts (something like that)

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[glo]

This is a Bible verse, which springs to mind:

"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

Luke 16:13

[Zafran]

what about Intrest i thought that was forbidden in christainty too?

[Uthman]

Ibn Abbas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I had a chance to look into the Paradise and I found that majority of the people were poor. [Sahih Muslim]

Abu Hurayrah reported that Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The poor people will enter paradise five hundred years before the rich. [Sunan al-Tirmidhi]

[MSN]

Don't i know you?city-data??is that it?

[Great I am not]

Light of Heaven

Thanks for that.

Your dogma follows closely that of Christianity. I am in the decadent west and expect to see millionaires and billionaires here. I note though that many Muslims are also quite wealthy in the east. Can it be that the east does not practice their dogma any better than they do in the Christian west. Not living in the east, I may be completely wrong with my impressions. I also understand that Muslims are not supposed to lend money but that there is a queasy legal way for them to gain interest on loans but again here, my information is sketchy. Can you enlighten?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

I can't speak for Islam, but I agree with you that Christians in the wealthy West are certainly managing to ignore Jesus' teachings on the poor and wealth quite successfully.
Not just rich churches, but as individuals we do too ... :-[

I am reminded about Jesus' advice to the rich young man to 'sell all his possessions and follow him'.

How many rich Christians are willing to do that?

Imagine the Vatican/Church of England/other wealthy churches sold their riches and gave the proceeds to the poor ...

:X Bite your tongue. Can't have Churches walking their talk now.:)

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

A simple quote came to mind - Allah does not look at your wealth but he looks at your hearts (something like that)

Christianity has a few of those sayings as well but if one covets wealth then can one say that he has a good heart?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Don't i know you?city-data??is that it?

Perhaps.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

Light of Heaven

Thanks for that.

Your dogma follows closely that of Christianity. I am in the decadent west and expect to see millionaires and billionaires here. I note though that many Muslims are also quite wealthy in the east. Can it be that the east does not practice their dogma any better than they do in the Christian west. Not living in the east, I may be completely wrong with my impressions. I also understand that Muslims are not supposed to lend money but that there is a queasy legal way for them to gain interest on loans but again here, my information is sketchy. Can you enlighten?

Regards
DL

Not sure where you made the east and west distinction as a lot of muslims are from the west - that distiction isnt very accurate - Furthermore by rich we are not just talking about the super rich but also the middle class who live like rich people. The rich man of Africa is less off then the middle class man in the US.

However rich people can also go to haven if there wealth is used properly - so its not a dogamtic rule whats so ever

Muslims are allowed to lend - Just not on intrest/usury. I'm sure christians are against usury/intrest too - It would be good if a christain could verify that. I know they were against it in the middle ages.

[glo]

Not sure where you made the east and west distinction as a lot of muslims are from the west - that distiction isnt very accurate - Furthermore by rich we are not just talking about the super rich but also the middle class who live like rich people. The rich man of Africa is less off then the middle class man in the US.

You are right there.
I remember hearing once that if you have as much as a bank account (even if you don't have much money), you are likely to belong the richest 10% of the world population ...

Muslims are allowed to lend - Just not on intrest/usury. I'm sure christians are against usury/intrest too - It would be good if a christain could verify that. I know they were against it in the middle ages.

As far as i know the old Jewish laws did not allow charging interest to other Israelites. (Not sure about other people)

I think you are right, that until the middle ages charging interest was frowned upon my Christians. I don't know how and why that changed, and I don't really have time to research it right now.

But on the topic of interest and poverty (and I know this is slightly off topic), here is a site which arranges small loans to entrepreneurs in developing countries ... thereby helping them to set up or improve their businesses.
You can loan as little as $25, and when the money is payed back to you, you can re-loan it to somebody else.
No interest is charged to the person lending the money.

Kiva's mission is to connect people through lending for the sake of alleviating poverty.

Kiva is the world's first person-to-person micro-lending website, empowering individuals to lend directly to unique entrepreneurs around the globe.

The people you see on Kiva's site are real individuals in need of funding - not marketing material. When you browse entrepreneurs' profiles on the site, choose someone to lend to, and then make a loan, you are helping a real person make great strides towards economic independence and improve life for themselves, their family, and their community. Throughout the course of the loan (usually 6-12 months), you can receive email journal updates and track repayments. Then, when you get your loan money back, you can relend to someone else in need.

Source: KIVA

If you have $25 spare, give it a try!
Here is an electrician in Afghanistan, who we are supporting:

http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=bus...about&id=65439

[ragdollcat1982]

what about Intrest i thought that was forbidden in christainty too?

It is and it used to be that only the Jews were moneylenders, I believe the Talmud allows 10% to be charged before it can be considered usury. I certainly am against usury, but you have alot of people who dont follow the tenents of their religion anymore.

[Zafran]

It is and it used to be that only the Jews were moneylenders, I believe the Talmud allows 10% to be charged before it can be considered usury. I certainly am against usury, but you have alot of people who dont follow the tenents of their religion anymore.

good point - In History they used to teach us that the Jews were not allowed to own land so they went to the moneylending business - the christains used to frown upon usury and they used that agisnt the Jews most of the time.

when christ goes to the Jewish temple and has a go at the Phrises there - was that because they were doing Usury in the temple? (in the bible).

[ragdollcat1982]

when christ goes to the Jewish temple and has a go at the Phrises there - was that because they were doing Usury? (in the bible).

Yes that would be usury because they were charging exhorbant rates to change the money to the shekels.

[Zafran]

Yes that would be usury because they were charging exhorbant rates to change the money to the shekels.

Thanks. So christ was against Usury - Nice.

[ragdollcat1982]

Thanks. So christ was against Usury - Nice.

Yes. I asked my husband about this as he is an amateur expert on Judiasm, (his 1st wife was Jewish) and told me that according to Jewish law anything above 10% is usury, but anything under that is consider acceptable due to the risk one incurrs when loaning money.

[Great I am not]

Not sure where you made the east and west distinction as a lot of muslims are from the west - that distiction isnt very accurate - Furthermore by rich we are not just talking about the super rich but also the middle class who live like rich people. The rich man of Africa is less off then the middle class man in the US.

However rich people can also go to haven if there wealth is used properly - so its not a dogamtic rule whats so ever

Muslims are allowed to lend - Just not on intrest/usury. I'm sure christians are against usury/intrest too - It would be good if a christain could verify that. I know they were against it in the middle ages.

We could write books on --used properly.

Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say to retain a few million for personal needs.

Most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of great wealth immoral in my view.

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

It is and it used to be that only the Jews were moneylenders, I believe the Talmud allows 10% to be charged before it can be considered usury. I certainly am against usury, but you have alot of people who dont follow the tenents of their religion anymore.

In some cases, this is bad.
In other cases this is good.

Man evolves and so does God. His laws should as well.

Regards
DL

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Gods laws don't need to change, since he knows what is best for His creation, past present and future. Man is NOT God and He cannot be equated with His creation.

[Zafran]

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

Trading of goods/needed raw materials - property/Inheritence - there are many halal/moral ways to mass wealth but wealth can corrupt peopl sometimes and some people use it for good.

[Great I am not]

Gods laws don't need to change, since he knows what is best for His creation, past present and future. Man is NOT God and He cannot be equated with His creation.

Oh my. Are we not created in His mental image?

If not then He is alien to mankind and should not rule over us.
Would you have us follow a Klingon or Farengy?

We are natural animals.

The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
The God of man should be a man, not some alien.

The first God was a man and the last shall be as well.
Who else can give a voice to God?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Trading of goods/needed raw materials - property/Inheritence - there are many halal/moral ways to mass wealth but wealth can corrupt peopl sometimes and some people use it for good.

As I stated above and as your first example shows, most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of great wealth immoral in my view.

The property or inheritance you speak of, if more than a certain amount would have been bought with the same exploitation and still immoral to keep.

Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say give so much and retain a few million for personal needs.

Most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of wealth immoral.

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

Oh my. Are we not created in His mental image?
If not then He is alien to mankind and should not rule over us.
Would you have us follow a Klingon or Farengy?

We are natural animals.

The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
The God of man should be a man, not some alien.

The first God was a man and the last shall be as well.
Who else can give a voice to God?

Regards
DL

salaam
This is a highly anthromophic account - a lot of people have a problem getting out of the anthromophic box. -

Heres a smiple Quranic (translation) of what God is and isnt in Islam.



"1. Say: He is Allah, the One!
2. Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
3. He begetteth not nor was begotten.
4. And there is none comparable unto Him." - surat 112.

The last phrase is a good one to focus on. Talking about "mental images" is anthromophising God.

Peace.

[Zafran]

As I stated above and as your first example shows, most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of great wealth immoral in my view.

The property or inheritance you speak of, if more than a certain amount would have been bought with the same exploitation and still immoral to keep.

Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say give so much and retain a few million for personal needs.

Most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of wealth immoral.

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

Regards
DL

This is preety questionable on how you see morality - if someone can sell products which are needed in society without illiegal means or intrest then that in Islamic terms it is halal - In Islam (fair) trade is moral - intrest isnt. You also call it exploitation of labour - that sounds very marxist - paying fair wages or the market price for the labour based on the laws of supply and demand do not seem like expliotation of labour but fair - as long as the labourer gets his share which the labour is worth.

In Islam there is something called Zakat which is a compulsory charity that people have to pay on the welath they have earned - as long as the wealth is earnt through

1 - legal and fair means
2 - not by intrest
3 - paid Zakat on it

Then "mass wealth" is ok or whatever wealth.

define explioting labour/markets?

[Great I am not]

salaam
This is a highly anthromophic account - a lot of people have a problem getting out of the anthromophic box. -

Heres a smiple Quranic (translation) of what God is and isnt in Islam.



"1. Say: He is Allah, the One!
2. Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
3. He begetteth not nor was begotten.
4. And there is none comparable unto Him." - surat 112.

The last phrase is a good one to focus on. Talking about "mental images" is anthromophising God.

Peace.

If none can compare to Him then what give this, with respect, alien God the right to rule men?

Does a lion rule cows? No.
Does a donkey rule dogs? No.

Should one so far from man rule men? No.

The same with the Christian God of mystery and unknowableness. Should one that man cannot understand rule men? No.

How can we know how to follow any God when we do not and cannot know His message with any clarity?

We cannot. Perhaps that is why the world is as screwed up as it is. Because we cannot understand God's message.

Are we animals. Yes. Should we do as all other animals do and follow one of us that we can understand? Yes.

That is exactly how Mohamed probably thought Praise be to Him, If a non Muslim can say so.

If you refute what I say then as far as I am concerned you would have tried to refute Mohamed. God is to be an archetypal goal, not a real entity.

No word has ever been said by God that did not come out of the mouth of a man.

In your case Mohamed.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

If none can compare to Him then what give this, with respect, alien God the right to rule men?

Does a lion rule cows? No.
Does a donkey rule dogs? No.

Should one so far from man rule men? No.

The same with the Christian God of mystery and unknowableness. Should one that man cannot understand rule men? No.

How can we know how to follow any God when we do not and cannot know His message with any clarity?

We cannot. Perhaps that is why the world is as screwed up as it is. Because we cannot understand God's message.

Are we animals. Yes. Should we do as all other animals do and follow one of us that we can understand? Yes.

That is exactly how Mohamed probably thought Praise be to Him, If a non Muslim can say so.

If you refute what I say then as far as I am concerned you would have tried to refute Mohamed. God is to be an archetypal goal, not a real entity.

No word has ever been said by God that did not come out of the mouth of a man.

In your case Mohamed.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Nothing is camparable to God because God is far greater then anything on earth - thats from the Quran what Muslims believe in the word of God.

Just because you do know or understand the messge does not mean that other people do not know understand it or know it.

When we talk about God - the higher being we let God dictate the rules - not us. - God is all knowing not the human - God is all wise not the human etc etc.


We are not just animals - we have intellect, counciousness and the ability to communicate at higher levels - Humans are not just animals - animals have the rule of survuival of the fittest - shall we also apply that rule too?

Muhammad pbuh brought the Quran - I'm not sure if you have read it or not or even studied his life?

[Great I am not]

This is preety questionable on how you see morality - if someone can sell products which are needed in society without illiegal means or intrest then that in Islamic terms it is halal - In Islam (fair) trade is moral - intrest isnt. You also call it exploitation of labour - that sounds very marxist - paying fair wages or the market price for the labour based on the laws of supply and demand do not seem like expliotation of labour but fair - as long as the labourer gets his share which the labour is worth.

In Islam there is something called Zakat which is a compulsory charity that people have to pay on the welath they have earned - as long as the wealth is earnt through

1 - legal and fair means
2 - not by intrest
3 - paid Zakat on it

Then "mass wealth" is ok or whatever wealth.

define explioting labour/markets?

First. Zakat.

Charity is just that. Something given out of love or desire to help others. It is or should be freely given.
To force people to pay it makes it a tax and not charity as I understand that word.

Exploitation of labor. If a Muslim owns a shop that makes pots. He pays his men 1 dollar a day as a fair wage. Each worker makes 1 pot per day. The owner sells his pots for 2 dollar each.
His fair profit after paying his man is then 1 dollar per day per man because he always sells his pots.
There are 5 of these shop owners doing identical business.

An earthquake hits and destroys 2 shops.

The owners of the 3 shops know that there will be a shortage of pots the next day.

Standard practice in any profitable business is to buy cheep and to sell dear.

Knowing this the 3 owners raise their price because they know that they will sell all they have and more it they had it. They sell the pots for 3 dollars each. They keep the profits.

This is exploitation of labor and at the same time it can be said that they added an interest to their product.

It is legal for them to do what they did but is it fair?

To me making more profit on an investment is interest. To not pay the workers more than normal is to exploit their labor. If they had no middle man, the owner, they would have earned the extra profit.

Make sense to you?

Regards
DL

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Oh my. Are we not created in His mental image?

If not then He is alien to mankind and should not rule over us.
Would you have us follow a Klingon or Farengy?

We are natural animals.

The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
The God of man should be a man, not some alien.

The first God was a man and the last shall be as well.
Who else can give a voice to God?

Regards
DL

This line of thinking is utter nonsense. Everything God has created is limited to a certain extent. God is not limited to anything, nor anything He has created. Thats why he is God. If God was His creation or anything similar to, how can we deem God to be Unique? This is fallacy in thinking and as Muslims, it doesn't correspond with Islam. At times, science is so caught up on trying to group everything together, then finally they deem us animals. We are not animals. Animals will have no judgement come Judgement day, humans will.


God is the Creator of ants, lions, man and anything else that exists. That doesn't rule out that He is an alien. Even if there was an alien, they still would be creation.

The God of man should be a man, not some alien.

You see that's a serious problem right here. It's not what we think "should" be but what is. Humans always think things should be a certain way but it's not up to us to decide what should be what. One person might say it should be this way, someone else might say no that way. Soon you have like 100 different opinions. What we think is right is not always right. God has legislated how things are or aught to be.

[Zafran]

This line of thinking is utter nonsense. Everything God has created is limited to a certain extent. God is not limited to anything, nor anything He has created. Thats why he is God. If God was His creation or anything similar to, how can we deem God to be Unique? This is fallacy in thinking and as Muslims, it doesnt correspond with Islam.


God is the Creator of ants, lions, man and anything else that exists. That doesn't rule out that He is an alien. Even if there was an alien, they still would be creation.



You see that's a serious problem right here. It's not what we think "should" be but what is. Humans always think things should be a certain way but it's not up to us to decide what should be what. One person might say it should be this way, someone else might say no that way. Soon you have like 100 different opinions. What we think is right is not always right. God has legislated how things are or aught to be.

salaam

Good response.
peace

[Zafran]

First. Zakat.

Charity is just that. Something given out of love or desire to help others. It is or should be freely given.
To force people to pay it makes it a tax and not charity as I understand that word.

Exploitation of labor. If a Muslim owns a shop that makes pots. He pays his men 1 dollar a day as a fair wage. Each worker makes 1 pot per day. The owner sells his pots for 2 dollar each.
His fair profit after paying his man is then 1 dollar per day per man because he always sells his pots.
There are 5 of these shop owners doing identical business.

An earthquake hits and destroys 2 shops.

The owners of the 3 shops know that there will be a shortage of pots the next day.

Standard practice in any profitable business is to buy cheep and to sell dear.

Knowing this the 3 owners raise their price because they know that they will sell all they have and more it they had it. They sell the pots for 3 dollars each. They keep the profits.

This is exploitation of labor and at the same time it can be said that they added an interest to their product.

It is legal for them to do what they did but is it fair?

To me making more profit on an investment is interest. To not pay the workers more than normal is to exploit their labor. If they had no middle man, the owner, they would have earned the extra profit.

Make sense to you?

Regards
DL

No Zakat is a Duty on the people that have the ability to pay it - it is not a favour - its what the rich OWE the poor. So its not realy like a charity.

Your example doesnt work - if the workers are paid more then before after the prices are risen - thefore making it fairer. The supply of the product would change in the market for pots (after the earthquake) which would also influence the price of labour - the market forces dictate the price and how much the labour costs.
The profit is what the shopkeeper makes (his earnings) and the wages are what the the labourer makes (his earnings) - If the profit increases that is a good thing not a bad thing - the market forces increased his profit which would also have an effect on the labour market anyway.

You also have to take inconsidertaion that there could be rational reasons of why the price has risen
1 - higher taxes
2 - higher cost of raw materials
and other reasons for Inflation in general

The Zakat, not dealing in intrest and paying the worker fairly is the duty of the owner - not beacsue he feels like it.

[Great I am not]

Light of Heaven

If God has no limits then why can he not create a sinless man?
If you think that Jesus is divine then you must disqualify him because he did not come from the seed of a man.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

[QUOTE=Zafran;1174405]No Zakat is a Duty on the people that have the ability to pay it - it is not a favour - its what the rich OWE the poor. So its not realy like a charity.

Your example doesnt work - if the workers are paid more then before after the prices are risen - thefore making it fairer. The supply of the product would change in the market for pots (after the earthquake) which would also influence the price of labour - the market forces dictate the price and how much the labour costs.
QUOTE]

Exactly but you notice in my scenario the owner did not pay more and exploited his employees.

Even today, if the price of oil goes up, does the oil worker get more? No. Stockholders do. Exploitation of the worker and the consumer or market.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

Light of Heaven

If God has no limits then why can he not create a sinless man?
If you think that Jesus is divine then you must disqualify him because he did not come from the seed of a man.

Regards
DL

salaam

as muslims we believe all prophets were sinless men......so? Jesus pbuh came from a women - makes him human enough - like Adam and Eve pbuh who didnt have a father or mother.

We muslims do not believe Jesus pbuh is divine - thats what christains believe.

[Zafran]

[QUOTE=Greatest I am;1174743]

No Zakat is a Duty on the people that have the ability to pay it - it is not a favour - its what the rich OWE the poor. So its not realy like a charity.

Your example doesnt work - if the workers are paid more then before after the prices are risen - thefore making it fairer. The supply of the product would change in the market for pots (after the earthquake) which would also influence the price of labour - the market forces dictate the price and how much the labour costs.
QUOTE]

Exactly but you notice in my scenario the owner did not pay more and exploited his employees.

Even today, if the price of oil goes up, does the oil worker get more? No. Stockholders do. Exploitation of the worker and the consumer or market.

Regards
DL

salaam - yes in purely captilalist market people can be explaioted thats why there are legal laws and governing bodies but does not make trade immoral does it - it depends on what people do - the market forces or the use of labour is not inheriently immoral which you were arguing before - were you not?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Light of Heaven

If God has no limits then why can he not create a sinless man?
If you think that Jesus is divine then you must disqualify him because he did not come from the seed of a man.

Regards
DL

If God was to create humankind sinless, there would be no sense in doing good nor seeking forgiveness from God nor turning to Him for help. As Muslims, we believe this life is a test. God has ordained what is wrong and what is right, the question is, are we willing to obey Him? The only people that were sinless were Prophets, yet they were as human as can get. They were the best amongst mankind, chosen by God to convey His message to the likes of us, so that we may be of the successful. God has given us free choice. Whatever we do, we are judged accordingly.

If you think that Jesus is divine then you must disqualify him because he did not come from the seed of a man.

We don't believe Jesus(pbuh) was divine. He(pbuh) was as human as anyone else. He(pbuh) was born the same way we all are, the only exception is it was miraculous birth and he was the best amongst those who walked the earth, the most obedient to God. The only divine Being is God Himself.

[Great I am not]

If God was to create humankind sinless, there would be no sense in doing good nor seeking forgiveness from God nor turning to Him for help. As Muslims, we believe this life is a test. God has ordained what is wrong and what is right, the question is, are we willing to obey Him? The only people that were sinless were Prophets, yet they were as human as can get. They were the best amongst mankind, chosen by God to convey His message to the likes of us, so that we may be of the successful. God has given us free choice. Whatever we do, we are judged accordingly.



We don't believe Jesus(pbuh) was divine. He(pbuh) was as human as anyone else. He(pbuh) was born the same way we all are, the only exception is it was miraculous birth and he was the best amongst those who walked the earth, the most obedient to God. The only divine Being is God Himself.

If prophets were sinless then they could not reach heaven if the Bible is to be believed.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


God wants man to sin.

Yes. Why else would God give us all a sinning nature?

Follow the logic and try to refute it.


God's will is that none be lost.
God's will is that all repent.
For all to repent then all must sin.

If God's will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, then all must sin so that all can repent and not be lost.



Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

[QUOTE=Light of Heaven;1174783] God has given us free choice. Whatever we do, we are judged accordingly.
QUOTE]

What free choice from God?

My way or burn forever in hell.

That is not free choice it is an ultimatum.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

Ofocurse it a free choice - is someone forcing you to believe in God????

Its very simple - follow the all wise or follow the ignorant - its not realy a difficult choice at all - thats if you believe in God.

[Zafran]

If prophets were sinless then they could not reach heaven if the Bible is to be believed.

have you researched Islam or read the Quran translation???? You your using the bible - the christain have the view that only Jesus was sinless - whilst Muslims believe that all prophets were the best humans and sinless.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What free choice from God?

My way or burn forever in hell.

That is not free choice it is an ultimatum.

Regards
DL

No. He has given you the choice to believe or disbelieve. What you do and how u behave in this world is how God will judge you. Despite ones disbelief in God, God provides for His creation yet most are ungrateful. Those who have less than we do are more grateful than those who have. For them, each piece of meal is a blessing because they know the struggle they went through to earn it.

God wants man to sin.

God does not want man to sin but to obey Him and enjoin good by forbidding evil. People take the choice to sin and disbelieve but God has also given you the choice to do good and believe in Him. The question is, which will you choose?

[Great I am not]

Ofocurse it a free choice - is someone forcing you to believe in God????

Its very simple - follow the all wise or follow the ignorant - its not realy a difficult choice at all - thats if you believe in God.

If you believe in God, Why?

Tradition, your daddy did and your grand daddy did and great gr----
Peer pressure from the society that you belong to.
Personal knowledge.
Faith.

I believe from logic that lead to personal experience. Not to a miracle working God but to our real one.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

have you researched Islam or read the Quran translation???? You your using the bible - the christain have the view that only Jesus was sinless - whilst Muslims believe that all prophets were the best humans and sinless.

The only problem with beliefs like that is that they cannot be proven.

To me, faith without facts is foolish.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

No. He has given you the choice to believe or disbelieve. What you do and how u behave in this world is how God will judge you. Despite ones disbelief in God, God provides for His creation yet most are ungrateful. Those who have less than we do are more grateful than those who have. For them, each piece of meal is a blessing because they know the struggle they went through to earn it.



God does not want man to sin but to obey Him and enjoin good by forbidding evil. People take the choice to sin and disbelieve but God has also given you the choice to do good and believe in Him. The question is, which will you choose?

My choice was forced on me by God himself. Not the miracle working God but the true God of this world.

The view of Islam as to how God judges belief and goodness of the heart without belief, is more just than the Bible God it seems. Good.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

If you believe in God, Why?

Tradition, your daddy did and your grand daddy did and great gr----
Peer pressure from the society that you belong to.
Personal knowledge.
Faith.

I believe from logic that lead to personal experience. Not to a miracle working God but to our real one.

Regards
DL

salaam

I believe in God because of the great miracle called the Quran - its not just a book but also a linguistic miracle - not because daddy says it - Islam is actually against that sort of thinking.

You can believe a lot of things from Logic although belief in God IMO sits well with human mind and the fitrah which is the innate natural belief of human beings.

I also believe Islam makes the most sense from all the monothesitic religions and once again sits well with my fitrah.

You dont believe in a miracle working God but a real one???? what does that mean?

You always use the bible - I'm not realy sure how much you know about Islam and the Quran? thats why i asked if you read the translation?

[Zafran]

The only problem with beliefs like that is that they cannot be proven.

To me, faith without facts is foolish.

Regards
DL

Faith in religion cannot be falsifiable - you also have beliefs that cannot be proven by facts -

what muslims and many other faiths do have is a common revelation.

[Great I am not]

The problem with belief in a creator God who has a hell for sinners, is that if He is the creator of souls and natures and they are created perfect, then you must think He can create these wrong otherwise perfect souls and natures would always do what they are intended to do. If they do not then the creation process must be faulty. If not faulty then there is no hell required as we would all end in heaven.

No other conclusion is possible. All must follow their natures. It is not possible to go against one's nature.

Regards
DL

[Tony]

The problem with belief in a creator God who has a hell for sinners, is that if He is the creator of souls and natures and they are created perfect, then you must think He can create these wrong otherwise perfect souls and natures would always do what they are intended to do. If they do not then the creation process must be faulty. If not faulty then there is no hell required as we would all end in heaven.

No other conclusion is possible. All must follow their natures. It is not possible to go against one's nature.

Regards
DL

Allah changes destinies for those who truly change in their hearts and acknowledge his oneness,we have free will to choose this. our lot remains, ie if we were written for wealth or sickness etc, but Allah helps those who believe

[Great I am not]

salaam

I believe in God because of the great miracle called the Quran - its not just a book but also a linguistic miracle - not because daddy says it - Islam is actually against that sort of thinking.

You can believe a lot of things from Logic although belief in God IMO sits well with human mind and the fitrah which is the innate natural belief of human beings.

I also believe Islam makes the most sense from all the monothesitic religions and once again sits well with my fitrah.

You dont believe in a miracle working God but a real one???? what does that mean?

You always use the bible - I'm not realy sure how much you know about Islam and the Quran? thats why i asked if you read the translation?

When I was into reading Bibles, I have read 8 different traditions, I did read the Quran. That was many years ago and to be honest, the way I read Bibles then was to absorb any logical philosophy in them and discard the rest.
All Bibles have value for thought and I use the K J because most of my talks are with Christians. It was it more than any other that helped me find my God.

That Godhead is more of a cosmic consciousness where all our souls will end up. In this we have no choice so the notion of us being able to separate ourselves from God are false.

It is my belief that ancient man, the prophets, found Him as well but they made Him into the wish list miracle working God that most believe in. It is obvious to me that if a such a God did exist, then He would not be the absentee God that He is. He would be here for all to see.

If He ever did exist then He was absorbed by the big bang or destroyed by it. We no longer have access either way to that one.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

The problem with belief in a creator God who has a hell for sinners, is that if He is the creator of souls and natures and they are created perfect, then you must think He can create these wrong otherwise perfect souls and natures would always do what they are intended to do. If they do not then the creation process must be faulty. If not faulty then there is no hell required as we would all end in heaven.

No other conclusion is possible. All must follow their natures. It is not possible to go against one's nature.

Regards
DL

By perfect meaning that God made man in perfect statue - But your view of thinking is fatalistic - Your the one being tried to sin or not sin or to sin and repent - you decide where you go - heaven and hell - God has given you choice with certain limits such as sex, skin colour pace of birth etc.

You decide your own future - there is a hell as there are wrongdoers in earth - people choose to do wrong.

Furthermore as muslims we believe this life is a test for us - we are meant to be learning.

[Zafran]

When I was into reading Bibles, I have read 8 different traditions, I did read the Quran. That was many years ago and to be honest, the way I read Bibles then was to absorb any logical philosophy in them and discard the rest.
All Bibles have value for thought and I use the K J because most of my talks are with Christians. It was it more than any other that helped me find my God.

That Godhead is more of a cosmic consciousness where all our souls will end up. In this we have no choice so the notion of us being able to separate ourselves from God are false.

It is my belief that ancient man, the prophets, found Him as well but they made Him into the wish list miracle working God that most believe in. It is obvious to me that if a such a God did exist, then He would not be the absentee God that He is. He would be here for all to see.

If He ever did exist then He was absorbed by the big bang or destroyed by it. We no longer have access either way to that one.

Regards
DL

Thats your understanding - how do you know God is absent - Just because you cant see God does not mean God is absent. Furthermore how do you know those mircales didnt happen - what if they did happen - what if the prophets were actually receiving revelation - they certainlty have made a major impact in the world.

Think before the big bang - if you know logic you would know the Kalam cosmological argumnet - God would be before the big bang and is stronger then the big bang - as God is all powerful.

[Great I am not]

Faith in religion cannot be falsifiable - you also have beliefs that cannot be proven by facts -

what muslims and many other faiths do have is a common revelation.

It is true that ii cannot prove the existence of my God any better than anyone else can for theirs but I do have some facts to go on.

In the spirit, a term the old prophets used to indicate their contact with God I call in modern term, telepathy.
I had two such experiences with telepathy. The first with my wife, and the second with what I call the Godhead.
If the first had not happened and been confirmed by my wife, I would not likely believe the second.
Because I cannot deny telepathy then I am forced to believe that I had contact with the Godhead.
I did not believe before this but did seek answers to God by debate and discussions.
I have no great revelation to speak of. It was, now that I understand our true reality, not that exciting of a deal.
He/It confirmed my thinking on religious issues and chastised me for not thinking demographically enough and that is about it.

Most do not believe me and I do not push this belief because as I say, I cannot prove it, but am happy to speak of it.

Even Abraham, Moses and Mohamed did not have real proof.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Allah changes destinies for those who truly change in their hearts and acknowledge his oneness,we have free will to choose this. our lot remains, ie if we were written for wealth or sickness etc, but Allah helps those who believe

If belief is not required for entry into heaven and a good heart is all that is needed, then the help here is relatively insignificant. small gifts are always nice though.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

It is true that ii cannot prove the existence of my God any better than anyone else can for theirs but I do have some facts to go on.

In the spirit, a term the old prophets used to indicate their contact with God I call in modern term, telepathy.
I had two such experiences with telepathy. The first with my wife, and the second with what I call the Godhead.
If the first had not happened and been confirmed by my wife, I would not likely believe the second.
Because I cannot deny telepathy then I am forced to believe that I had contact with the Godhead.
I did not believe before this but did seek answers to God by debate and discussions.
I have no great revelation to speak of. It was, now that I understand our true reality, not that exciting of a deal.
He/It confirmed my thinking on religious issues and chastised me for not thinking demographically enough and that is about it.

Most do not believe me and I do not push this belief because as I say, I cannot prove it, but am happy to speak of it.

Even Abraham, Moses and Mohamed did not have real proof.

Regards
DL

salaam

Oh yes they did - they had revelation and made major impacts on there community or the people that came after - they also had prophicies but most of all miracles. Thye did have real proofs - if you were there when the sea split and would call that proof - or brought a revelation like the Quran - thats proof.

If anyone wanted to be a skeptic even you could deny Telepathy - just look for another explanition.

[Zafran]

If belief is not required for entry into heaven and a good heart is all that is needed, then the help here is relatively insignificant. small gifts are always nice though.

Regards
DL

Belief is part of having a good heart - so is being a morally upright person - all these things effect to create a sound heart.

[Great I am not]

By perfect meaning that God made man in perfect statue - But your view of thinking is fatalistic - Your the one being tried to sin or not sin or to sin and repent - you decide where you go - heaven and hell - God has given you choice with certain limits such as sex, skin colour pace of birth etc.

You decide your own future - there is a hell as there are wrongdoers in earth - people choose to do wrong.

Furthermore as muslims we believe this life is a test for us - we are meant to be learning.

I am not fatalist, I am a realist. Things are what they are. That is all.

I agree that we are here to learn but we have no restrictions. It is obvious that man has dominion here on earth. Who else makes laws and enforces them if not man.

When people do wrong they are following their natures. If you believe that God makes our souls and natures then if things are not what He wants then it is to Him not to create us as we are.

As to sex. In this country the state says that it has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. This is the correct policy and I take it further and say that if there is a god then He too has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. Man should and is allowed to follow his nature. The only restrictions should be if a victim is being created by his or her actions.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

salaam

Oh yes they did - they had revelation and made major impacts on there community or the people that came after - they also had prophicies but most of all miracles. Thye did have real proofs - if you were there when the sea split and would call that proof - or brought a revelation like the Quran - thats proof.

If anyone wanted to be a skeptic even you could deny Telepathy - just look for another explanition.

To deny telepathy, I would have to convince my wife that she had a delusion. You do not know my wife. I do not have the balls to try to force a lie on her.

If God is as all powerful as you think then He should have the power to show Himself.

If you want to believe miracles happened then do so. If you do then you would believe in the great food and believe that a god that makes all things perfect would have to destroy His perfect works including so called evil children and babies and animals. Explain how children. Babies and animals can be evil.

As to hell, it would be completely unjust for men who can only sin for 120 yrs. , to have a sentence of 1200000000000000000000000+ yrs imposed on them. Both unjust and Religulous.
Have you seen that movie BTW.

To think that little sinners like you and I would spend eternity with a Hitler and Stalin and God Himself as the greatest genocidal maniac is just too silly to even consider.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Belief is part of having a good heart - so is being a morally upright person - all these things effect to create a sound heart.

My heart was the same before I believed in my God as after. You said belief was not required did you not?

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

To deny telepathy, I would have to convince my wife that she had a delusion. You do not know my wife. I do not have the balls to try to force a lie on her.

If God is as all powerful as you think then He should have the power to show Himself.

If you want to believe miracles happened then do so. If you do then you would believe in the great food and believe that a god that makes all things perfect would have to destroy His perfect works including so called evil children and babies and animals. Explain how children. Babies and animals can be evil.

As to hell, it would be completely unjust for men who can only sin for 120 yrs. , to have a sentence of 1200000000000000000000000+ yrs imposed on them. Both unjust and Religulous.
Have you seen that movie BTW.

To think that little sinners like you and I would spend eternity with a Hitler and Stalin and God Himself as the greatest genocidal maniac is just too silly to even consider.

Regards
DL

Firstly of all God has the power to do everything - God can show up if God wnated - you or me or any other human cannot dictate that.

secodnaly God is the best Judge - the sentnec for the wrongdoers will be a just one.

I could say the same thing like !To think that telelpathy exists is just too silly to consider" and besides how do you know Hitler nad Stalin are in hell?? You dont. How do you know your going to be in hell the same time as other people - what is your proof - do you follow a revelation or are you making this up as you go along?

children are not evil - they actually go to heaven when they die - this life isnt the be all and end all - there is a better place to achieve.

Animals are made for human use.

Once again by perfect - is that God made man in great statue - not what you mean eg humans acting perfectly.

[Zafran]

My heart was the same before I believed in my God as after. You said belief was not required did you not?

Regards
DL

where did is say that???? I said

Belief is part of having a good heart - so is being a morally upright person - all these things effect to create a sound heart

If your heart hasnt changed maybe you didnt change at all - or maybe you seriously on the wrong path.

[aamirsaab]

.... Man should and is allowed to follow his nature. The only restrictions should be if a victim is being created by his or her actions.

Regards
DL

Sorry to stick my rear end in here, but I have issue with this ''man behaving natural'' business. Fact is, if you truly subscribe to that notion, you would be living in the jungles where you would have complete freedoms (more than in any human society) and ability to take out any and all natural urges without inhibition or complaints from other members of society. Of course, you'd probably have to fight a gorilla at some point, so make sure you're nice and fit!

The reality is, we as humans operate on laws and leaders and we have standards for ourselves. Like taking a crap in the toilet instead of in your pants (no matter how long you have been holding that turtle in!). We all have urges, but we have to maintain control over them. Otherwise, we'd all be wearing diapers to work.

Keeping with that example, let's say your Dad tells you to stop laying bricks in your pants or you're gonna get fired (heck, maybe arrested for indecent exposure). He's not saying that because he's interested in your (lack of) toilet ettiquette. He's saying it for your own good!

It's the same thing in Islam: the things we are to stay away from is for our OWN benefit; alcohol, gambling, adultery, crack, black magic etc etc. All for our own good.

[Great I am not]

Zafran

Quote:
Originally Posted by TKTony
Allah changes destinies for those who truly change in their hearts and acknowledge his oneness,we have free will to choose this. our lot remains, ie if we were written for wealth or sickness etc, but Allah helps those who believe

If belief is not required for entry into heaven and a good heart is all that is needed, then the help here is relatively insignificant. small gifts are always nice though.

Regards
DL

I read this as saying that Allah will help those who believe and if others use their free will are cannot believe then their lot remains at whatever it is to be.

Is this not what it is, if not then is free will to mean believe or go to hell?

-----------------------------------------------------

You say that God can do this and that and on and on like some fundamental Christian with absolutely no proof except the Bible. In your case the Quran.

You both read your books as the WORD of God.

In the Christian Bible it warns against idol worship.

Does yours?
If it does then why do you idolize your book?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Sorry to stick my rear end in here, but I have issue with this ''man behaving natural'' business. Fact is, if you truly subscribe to that notion, you would be living in the jungles where you would have complete freedoms (more than in any human society) and ability to take out any and all natural urges without inhibition or complaints from other members of society. Of course, you'd probably have to fight a gorilla at some point, so make sure you're nice and fit!

The reality is, we as humans operate on laws and leaders and we have standards for ourselves. Like taking a crap in the toilet instead of in your pants (no matter how long you have been holding that turtle in!). We all have urges, but we have to maintain control over them. Otherwise, we'd all be wearing diapers to work.

Keeping with that example, let's say your Dad tells you to stop laying bricks in your pants or you're gonna get fired (heck, maybe arrested for indecent exposure). He's not saying that because he's interested in your (lack of) toilet ettiquette. He's saying it for your own good!

It's the same thing in Islam: the things we are to stay away from is for our OWN benefit; alcohol, gambling, adultery, crack, black magic etc etc. All for our own good.

I reiterate. There is a place for society and law to intervene in the affairs of men.
When there is a victim with a complaint.

If there is no victim or complaint then man nor god has any business interfering in whatever activity is going on.

Alcohol--If I have a drink or three while watching tv at night--who do I offend and who would complain and why?

Gambling--If I invite 3 friends and play some penny poker on Friday night--who do we offend or hurt. Who would complain and why?

Adultery--there is a victim.

Crack--if my wife and I like to stretch out on Saturday night and chip crack. Who is offended or hurt and who will complain and why?

Black Magic--LOL
Are you serious?

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

I reiterate. There is a place for society and law to intervene in the affairs of men.
When there is a victim with a complaint.

If there is no victim or complaint then man nor god has any business interfering in whatever activity is going on.

Alcohol--If I have a drink or three while watching tv at night--who do I offend and who would complain and why?

Gambling--If I invite 3 friends and play some penny poker on Friday night--who do we offend or hurt. Who would complain and why?

Adultery--there is a victim.

Crack--if my wife and I like to stretch out on Saturday night and chip crack. Who is offended or hurt and who will complain and why?

Black Magic--LOL
Are you serious?

Regards
DL

what about your parents?

Are you serious?

coming from a guy who believes in Telepathy

[Zafran]

Zafran

Quote:
Originally Posted by TKTony
Allah changes destinies for those who truly change in their hearts and acknowledge his oneness,we have free will to choose this. our lot remains, ie if we were written for wealth or sickness etc, but Allah helps those who believe

If belief is not required for entry into heaven and a good heart is all that is needed, then the help here is relatively insignificant. small gifts are always nice though.

Regards
DL


I read this as saying that Allah will help those who believe and if others use their free will are cannot believe then their lot remains at whatever it is to be.

Is this not what it is, if not then is free will to mean believe or go to hell?

-----------------------------------------------------

You say that God can do this and that and on and on like some fundamental Christian with absolutely no proof except the Bible. In your case the Quran.

You both read your books as the WORD of God.

In the Christian Bible it warns against idol worship.

Does yours?
If it does then why do you idolize your book?

Regards
DL

First of all nowhere did Tktony say you dont have to believe - if so show me??

second you choose not to believe nobody is forcing you to believe unlike your wife on Telepathy.

furthermore the Quran isnt just a book its the speech of God given to the prophet Muhammad pbuh - if i believe in a revelation and base my beliefs on that it atleast its on a common bases - you however idolize your desires - today you like idea A the next day you like Idea B - Your a slave to desires - You sound like a emo kid who bases all his judgements on your desires. As I said the Quran and the prophet Muhammad pbuh are the proofes - including the other prophets who have made a major impact in the world.

Your desires havent got bases - atleast people of religion have a bases on revelation and people.

- following your desires is an idol. Your idol.

[aamirsaab]

...
Alcohol--If I have a drink or three while watching tv at night--who do I offend and who would complain and why?

Alcohol screws up your mind and your liver. Bad for you.

Gambling--If I invite 3 friends and play some penny poker on Friday night--who do we offend or hurt. Who would complain and why?

Gambling is psychologically addictive and odds of winning are never in your favour. You waste your own money and time trying to beat the odds. Bad for you.

Crack--if my wife and I like to stretch out on Saturday night and chip crack. Who is offended or hurt and who will complain and why?

crack messes up your body. Bad for you.

Black Magic--LOL
Are you serious?

Yep; there's some crazy **** in this world that you really do not want to mess with. For your own benefit.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

My choice was forced on me by God himself. Not the miracle working God but the true God of this world.

The view of Islam as to how God judges belief and goodness of the heart without belief, is more just than the Bible God it seems. Good.

Regards
DL

Your choice was not forced by God. He gave you options, believe or disbelieve. You can accept Him or reject Him and earn the consequences.

[Tony]

Zafran

Quote:
Originally Posted by TKTony
Allah changes destinies for those who truly change in their hearts and acknowledge his oneness,we have free will to choose this. our lot remains, ie if we were written for wealth or sickness etc, but Allah helps those who believe

If belief is not required for entry into heaven and a good heart is all that is needed, then the help here is relatively insignificant. small gifts are always nice though.

Regards
DL

I read this as saying that Allah will help those who believe and if others use their free will are cannot believe then their lot remains at whatever it is to be.

Is this not what it is, if not then is free will to mean believe or go to hell?

-----------------------------------------------------


DL

dont understand ur post, sorry. if we acceptthe oneness of Allah he will help us , if not then u are kuffar. destiny remains, but ur time on earth will be with the assistance of Allah if u change ur heart towards Allah

[Tony]

It is true that ii cannot prove the existence of my God any better than anyone else can for theirs but I do have some facts to go on.

In the spirit, a term the old prophets used to indicate their contact with God I call in modern term, telepathy.
I had two such experiences with telepathy. The first with my wife, and the second with what I call the Godhead.
If the first had not happened and been confirmed by my wife, I would not likely believe the second.
Because I cannot deny telepathy then I am forced to believe that I had contact with the Godhead.
I did not believe before this but did seek answers to God by debate and discussions.
I have no great revelation to speak of. It was, now that I understand our true reality, not that exciting of a deal.
He/It confirmed my thinking on religious issues and chastised me for not thinking demographically enough and that is about it.

Most do not believe me and I do not push this belief because as I say, I cannot prove it, but am happy to speak of it.

Even Abraham, Moses and Mohamed did not have real proof.

Regards
DL

with respect i cannot see millions of people following ur version of God in 1,500 yrs time !!!

[Raaina]

Interesting website, thanks for sharing that, i'm going to take a look :)

[Great I am not]

.

I seet that this discussion has gone to the same way of any discussion with a Christian Fundamental.

You did not speak to the issues and turned to insult and preaching.

Regards
DL

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Maybe I missed the insult part, but you happen to be an ISLAMIC forum. Us answering you doesnt conclude preaching just cause you happen to feel that way.

[Great I am not]

Alcohol screws up your mind and your liver. Bad for you.


Gambling is psychologically addictive and odds of winning are never in your favour. You waste your own money and time trying to beat the odds. Bad for you.


crack messes up your body. Bad for you.


Yep; there's some crazy **** in this world that you really do not want to mess with. For your own benefit.

Stockholm syndrome.

It is lack of freedom of will when I must believe in witches.

Give your head a shake.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Your choice was not forced by God. He gave you options, believe or disbelieve. You can accept Him or reject Him and earn the consequences.

Yep accept and get a big kiss. Reject and burn forever.
Nice choice that.
Oops that is not a choice it is an ultimatum. Imagine that.

You can tell your God that man does not do well under threats and He can shove them.
What kind of dumb God would use threat as a tool of social manipulation?

Regards
DL

[aamirsaab]

Stockholm syndrome.

What are you talking about? Those are well known and reported scientific facts (apart from the black magic stuff); why are you arguing against that?!

It is lack of freedom of will when I must believe in witches.

Whether or not you believe in something does not negate your freedom of will. In any case, are you now disputing or agreeing with the negative effects of adulterey, gambling, drug usage and alcohol consumption?

Give your head a shake.

Regards
DL

You first.

Yep accept and get a big kiss. Reject and burn forever.
Nice choice that.
Oops that is not a choice it is an ultimatum. Imagine that.

I'd call it nice and simple.

You can tell your God that man does not do well under threats and He can shove them.

Well given all you, personally, would have to sacrifice is alcohol, gambling and adultery, I really don't think you're being threatened; it's like if a doctor tells you yeah keep eating junk food and you'll die. Eat veggies and fruit and you'll live. It's for your own benefit anyway and the only difference is one has a substantially greater pay-out: Paradise.

Also factor into the account your argument being fallacious in that if you believe in the existence of hell and heaven (and you'd have to otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about it), that would make you a follower and thus would enter paradise. In which case, there is no problem.

If you don't believe in the existence of such things, why get worked up about it? It doesn't exist; it's like me getting worked up about Skeletor coming back from Despondos so he can team up with King Hiss and Lord Hordak to overthrow Castle Greyskull, kill He-man and steal his Sword of Power.

What kind of dumb God would use threat as a tool of social manipulation?

Regards
DL

That's where your knowledge about God suffers; it's not about threatening. It's telling you straight up. Of course, if you'd rather be lulled into some sort of falseness and then end up getting screwed in the process, then seek another path.

As for social manipulation; Islam covers every aspect of life; from legal matters to agriculture; business standards to marrital; health care to animal safety and so on and so forth! It is not simply: Yeah God exists, or Yeah God doesn't exist; it's a complete way of life.

Plus, at the end of the day, noone can say for sure who is going to heaven or hell; even muslims do not know this - we're not God; only He decides who goes where. So in actuality we're all in the same boat.

[Zafran]

I seet that this discussion has gone to the same way of any discussion with a Christian Fundamental.

You did not speak to the issues and turned to insult and preaching.

Regards
DL

thats what happens with most of time when people use there emotions and realise thats excatly what they have emotions - no revelation - no verification principle - Just pure emotion.

Just like you criticize religous people for following revelation the same way I'm criticizing you for using your mere emotions and basing your whole ideas on that and you dont even realise it - I'm getting at the heart of the issue. Today you say you like A the Next day you like B.

I'm sure I spoke of The issues you just didnt like the answers - what did I do hurt your emotions??
The below were my answers not a fullstop

Firstly of all God has the power to do everything - God can show up if God wnated - you or me or any other human cannot dictate that.

secodnaly God is the best Judge - the sentence for the wrongdoers will be a just one.

I could say the same thing like "To think that telelpathy exists is just too silly to consider" and besides how do you know Hitler nad Stalin are in hell?? You dont. How do you know your going to be in hell the same time as other people - what is your proof - do you follow a revelation or are you making this up as you go along?

children are not evil - they actually go to heaven when they die - this life isnt the be all and end all - there is a better place to achieve.

Animals are made for human use.

Once again by perfect - is that God made man in great statue - not what you mean eg humans acting perfectly.

Not

.

[Zafran]

I agree that we are here to learn but we have no restrictions. It is obvious that man has dominion here on earth. Who else makes laws and enforces them if not man.

God has chosen Man to uphold the law - if man doesnt do it then havoc will break out - thats the warning and will harm man.

When people do wrong they are following their natures. If you believe that God makes our souls and natures then if things are not what He wants then it is to Him not to create us as we are.

No God has given you will and has told you what is bad for you and what is good for you - its up to the human to upheld for his own Good or have no laws and fall in to trouble - There is a choice.

As to sex. In this country the state says that it has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. This is the correct policy and I take it further and say that if there is a god then He too has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. Man should and is allowed to follow his nature. The only restrictions should be if a victim is being created by his or her actions.

This is not sound at all - with HIV and Aids running free and many other STDs the state has to do something about it - As said before You want to have sex with who ever you want but you are warned of the negative impacts it can bring

Not to mention Teenage Pregnancies and brokern families that the state has to pay for.

Its as simple as this - You upheld the boundreis then your going to be safer - If not you are in risk of getting in a mess.

[Muezzin]

Yep accept and get a big kiss. Reject and burn forever.
Nice choice that.
Oops that is not a choice it is an ultimatum. Imagine that.

Eat a balanced diet, don't smoke or consume alcohol and get a decent amount of exercise. Live a healthy life.

Eat a fatty diet, smoke like a chimney, drink like a fish, and don't exercise at all. Develop a multitude of health problems and shorten your lifespan.

Nice choice that.

Oops, that is not a choice, that is the ultimatum of basic human biology. Imagine that.

More seriously, I don't really understand the contempt for this sort of carrot and stick approach when our everyday lives are so often based upon it. It strikes me as disengenous that critics of religion who do criticise this approach, only do so when it is employed in religion.

Can a rich Church or man or Mosques get into heaven?

In Islam, of course a rich Muslim man can get into heaven, provided he has performed enough good deeds. Wealth or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.

To quote a certain Samuel L Jackson bank advert 'Money is not evil! Love of money is evil! If a chicken had money, would the chicken be evil?'

If none can compare to Him then what give this, with respect, alien God the right to rule men?

The fact that He created men.

If I make a robot, I rule the robot. It is not presided over by King Optimus and Queen Arcee.

[Follower]

Proverbs 28
8 He who increases his wealth by exorbitant interest
amasses it for another, who will be kind to the poor

Some take the following literally to mean it is ok to collect interest.

Matthew 25
24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

The fact that there are no late payments is good but the sharia system could have it's own pitfalls if the lenders jack up the price of the item to be resold. It could end up costing more then it would have with interest tacked on.

"In an Islamic mortgage transaction, instead of loaning the buyer money to purchase the item, a bank might buy the item itself from the seller, and re-sell it to the buyer at a profit, while allowing the buyer to pay the bank in installments. However, the fact that it is profit cannot be made explicit and therefore there are no additional penalties for late payment."

[Yanal]

In an Islamic view only muslims are to enter/attain paradise which clearly is a no for your first question. Your second question is a bit dull..and hard to understand,can you rephrase so I can properly comprehend and insh'Allah give you mine answer.

[AntiKarateKid]

Yep accept and get a big kiss. Reject and burn forever.
Nice choice that.
Oops that is not a choice it is an ultimatum. Imagine that.

You can tell your God that man does not do well under threats and He can shove them.
What kind of dumb God would use threat as a tool of social manipulation?

Regards
DL

I don't get it. If you don't do your work in school you will fail. If you don't do your work in life you will fail. Have you ever told your teacher to shove it when she asked you to hand in HW?

Get real. But it's funny seeing you get high off insulting God. Would you be willing to undertake an organized debate?

[Great I am not]

I don't get it. If you don't do your work in school you will fail. If you don't do your work in life you will fail. Have you ever told your teacher to shove it when she asked you to hand in HW?

Get real. But it's funny seeing you get high off insulting God. Would you be willing to undertake an organized debate?

In school, the teacher is there to question.
God is an absentee teacher who has no right to judge unless He is here to judge.

Debate is always good.

Subject?

Regards
DL

[AntiKarateKid]

In school, the teacher is there to question.
God is an absentee teacher who has no right to judge unless He is here to judge.

Debate is always good.

Subject?

Regards
DL

God is here and he is judging you. You will find out if you passed the test when you die.

If you wish, make a new thread with the subject as perhaps "god has no right to judge"? I'm not sure but make it whatever you feel like but be specific so our debate can go somewhere.

Moreover, thanks for responding to this post, but there are about 4 or five others which totally rip your statement a new one.

[Great I am not]

God is here and he is judging you. You will find out if you passed the test when you die.

If you wish, make a new thread with the subject as perhaps "god has no right to judge"? I'm not sure but make it whatever you feel like but be specific so our debate can go somewhere.

Moreover, thanks for responding to this post, but there are about 4 or five others which totally rip your statement a new one.

The only way to refute that God is absentee is for Him to show himself. You will notice that He does not.

So much for your 4 or 5 who do not believe this simple fact.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

The only way to refute that God is absentee is for Him to show himself. You will notice that He does not.

So much for your 4 or 5 who do not believe this simple fact.

Regards
DL

Thats like saying air is absent becasue we cannot see it. For air to exist it would have to "show itself" - Not realy a sound way of thinking.

Human perception is very weak anyway - if its too dark humans cannot see anything and if its to light we get blinded by the light.

[Great I am not]

Thats like saying air is absent becasue we cannot see it. For air to exist it would have to "show itself" - Not realy a sound way of thinking.

Human perception is very weak anyway - if its too dark humans cannot see anything and if its to light we get blinded by the light.

If you believe in God then man's perception is exactly what God has put into His creations.

We can discern invisible air by it's effects and know for a certainty that H2O exists.

Show the same scientific data for God and then all will know He exists.

If you prefer to remain in the realm of myth and imagination then just believe in talking snakes, and seven headed monsters and other phenomena that exceed the bounds of nature and physics.

To think that God would break the laws that He has put in place is just silly.

Regards
DL

[- Qatada -]

Show the same scientific data for God and then all will know He exists.

We affirm and admit that God is outside nature, or the natural world.

If you prefer to remain in the realm of myth and imagination then just believe in talking snakes, and seven headed monsters and other phenomena that exceed the bounds of nature and physics.

These are irrelevant, since we don't believe in God based on fairy tales or fable stories, but we believe in Him due to our understanding of the universe around us, and come to the conclusion that this was set and designed by God in order to achieve what He intended us, and that was to allow life to be contained and sustained within the earth, while revealing the best guidance to them.


So let me give u an example of how physics can lead to the understanding that everything occurred with control and precision, and not mere chance;

1) rate of expansion after big bang

“If the rate of expansion one second after the 'Big Bang' had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million (0,000000000000001%), the universe would have recollapsed. The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the Big Bang are enormous”. (Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes', Page 128).

2) gravity :

“If gravity (released by the Big Bang) had been stronger or weaker by even one part in ten thousand million million million million million million (0,00000000000000000000000000000000000001%) then life sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible.” (Brandon Carter, ‘New Physics’ Page 187).

3) Or how about the physical constants (like speed of light, planck constant). In physics we see these seemingly arbitrary numbers appear, that cannot be accounted for, but are adhered to strictly. Many scientists have expressed their awe for the way these constants caused a form of "fine-tuning". We do not understand where these values come from, yet we do see that if they would have been any different, life in this universe would have become very challenging. (Constants of Physics and Mathematics)

http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/13...ml#post1165413

These are just a few examples of how physics led to a conclusion that there is a high level of precision and design by an Intelligent being to achieve a universe which would support life, and the probability of this happening through mere chance is really low, one could even argue - an impossibility.


Islam does not require blind faith, since there are certain aspects which do require faith - but these do not contradict and oppose the human logic. Hence it isn't blind faith, but is infact based on logical understanding.

[Zafran]

If you believe in God then man's perception is exactly what God has put into His creations.

We can discern invisible air by it's effects and know for a certainty that H2O exists.

Show the same scientific data for God and then all will know He exists.

If you prefer to remain in the realm of myth and imagination then just believe in talking snakes, and seven headed monsters and other phenomena that exceed the bounds of nature and physics.

To think that God would break the laws that He has put in place is just silly.

Regards
DL

I find your emotional out bursts silly and your assumptions narrow - if you want to stay in the anthromorphic realm then your going to run in a lot of problems. Nobody is talking about "imagination" - thats not the bases of belief in God - maybe you need to get out of that first.

Furthermore how do you know scientific data is true???

worst still comming from a person who believes in Telepathy!

[Gubbleknucker]

I can't speak for Islam, but I agree with you that Christians in the wealthy West are certainly managing to ignore Jesus' teachings on the poor and wealth quite successfully.
Not just rich churches, but as individuals we do too ... :-[

I am reminded about Jesus' advice to the rich young man to 'sell all his possessions and follow him'.

How many rich Christians are willing to do that?

If you really believed, you would do it by necessity.

It is analogous to a truck headed towards you at high speed. If you do not believe the truck exists, a sane person will not move despite all their fears of the truck's destructive power.
Sitting at this computer and typing, I am confident that I do not have to move out of the way of any truck.


...but if you actually see the truck, you will give your best effort to stay out of it's way.

[Great I am not]

We affirm and admit that God is outside nature, or the natural world.

If He is that alien to the man of this natural world then He has no right to ask us to follow Him. Especially if you believe in the genocidal flood of Noah's day.
that God was a traitor to humanity. I will follow him when Jews follow Hitler.

These are irrelevant, since we don't believe in God based on fairy tales or fable stories, but we believe in Him due to our understanding of the universe around us, and come to the conclusion that this was set and designed by God in order to achieve what He intended us, and that was to allow life to be contained and sustained within the earth, while revealing the best guidance to them.

This must mean that you believe that what we all see around us is perfect then? This perfection is here even with Satan and woes?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

That is how thw Bible says it.

So let me give u an example of how physics can lead to the understanding that everything occurred with control and precision, and not mere chance;

1) rate of expansion after big bang

“If the rate of expansion one second after the 'Big Bang' had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million (0,000000000000001%), the universe would have recollapsed. The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the Big Bang are enormous”. (Stephen Hawking, 'A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes', Page 128).

2) gravity :

“If gravity (released by the Big Bang) had been stronger or weaker by even one part in ten thousand million million million million million million (0,00000000000000000000000000000000000001%) then life sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible.” (Brandon Carter, ‘New Physics’ Page 187).

3) Or how about the physical constants (like speed of light, planck constant). In physics we see these seemingly arbitrary numbers appear, that cannot be accounted for, but are adhered to strictly. Many scientists have expressed their awe for the way these constants caused a form of "fine-tuning". We do not understand where these values come from, yet we do see that if they would have been any different, life in this universe would have become very challenging. (Constants of Physics and Mathematics)

http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/13...ml#post1165413

These are just a few examples of how physics led to a conclusion that there is a high level of precision and design by an Intelligent being to achieve a universe which would support life, and the probability of this happening through mere chance is really low, one could even argue - an impossibility.


Islam does not require blind faith, since there are certain aspects which do require faith - but these do not contradict and oppose the human logic. Hence it isn't blind faith, but is infact based on logical understanding.

You and I both agree that if anything were different then we would not be here.

This does not mean that it came from an intelligent source. The I D trials show this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAnIo...815FCD&index=0

You have no facts that place God as the initiator of the big bang. You do base your religiosity on faith.

Faith that Constantine's paid writers got it right.

If not faith then please show the facts and not conjecture of what an oral tradition, of belief that was thousands of years old, would know as fact.

Regards
DL

[aamirsaab]

If you really believed, you would do it by necessity.

It is analogous to a truck headed towards you at high speed. If you do not believe the truck exists, a sane person will not move despite all their fears of the truck's destructive power.
Sitting at this computer and typing, I am confident that I do not have to move out of the way of any truck.


...but if you actually see the truck, you will give your best effort to stay out of it's way.

Your analogy is actually really good. And supports existence of God because a sane person would be able to HEAR the truck before he/she saw it and thus would move out the way (or at least take standard survival precaution!). Seeing isnt always believing ;)

The deaf, dumb and blind would be those who do not move out of the way because they cannot hear/see/understand the truck. Much like certain non-thiests who despite all the truck driver's honking (and headlights!) - or God's signs - simply do not take heed...

Turned out to be a better analogy than you thought, huh?

[- Qatada -]

If He is that alien to the man of this natural world then He has no right to ask us to follow Him. Especially if you believe in the genocidal flood of Noah's day.
that God was a traitor to humanity. I will follow him when Jews follow Hitler.

God knows the universe, because He originated it. The universe follows set patterns because He set out them patterns.

In regard to your issue on Noah's flood, who said i believe that ALL of humanity was flooded? According to Islamic sources, those who rejected Noah, and oppressed him and his followers - they were the ones who were punished. That shows it was Justice on the part of God to get rid of the oppressors.


This is why God tells us in the Qur'an continuously;

And We did not oppress them at all, but they themselves were unjust. [Qur'an 43:76]

You and I both agree that if anything were different then we would not be here.

This does not mean that it came from an intelligent source. The I D trials show this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAnIo...815FCD&index=0

I argue otherwise, and I put forward the argument that its impossible for so much coincidences to occur, which surpass the level of impossibility according to statistics. Hence it can't have been done except through Intelligent Design.

I writ this article showing the stats, aswell as using logic to come to that conclusion;

I invite you to check it out;

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...cal-truth.html

You have no facts that place God as the initiator of the big bang. You do base your religiosity on faith.

I affirm i require faith in God [although this is not blind faith, but logical], but you also require faith - as an atheist - in science which cannot explain what was the cause of the Big Bang. Anything which you argue is hypothesis only, hence not fact - so faith based.

So you require faith yourself.

If not faith then please show the facts and not conjecture of what an oral tradition, of belief that was thousands of years old, would know as fact.

Regards
DL

I've mentioned this in another post of mine on the forum on the Qur'an;

No Book has ever been able to achieve what the Qur'an has been able to achieve in its miraculousness; ranging from those who hear it, recite it, memorise it (millions of people memorise it letter for letter and have done so since its time), its influence in ALL spheres of life [whether its on a personal level, to the political sphere, to transactions and fair dealings with others etc.]

It's a book which applies to ALL times, ALL places, making the most cowardly of people to be the bravest, humbling the arrogant, and reviving societies to the greatest of heights which were breaking down into nothingness. It's a Book which calls to truthfulness, and the highest of morals, calling to forgiveness, but also justice. It's the criterion between truth and falsehood, pleasing to the reader, and understandable to the layperson aswell as the intellectual.


No other book can achieve what the Qur'an can, and has achieved.

Here's a sample of its beauty;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oql3as7LJKg

This is a great sign that the Qur'an is from God, since an illiterate man [Muhammad - Peace be upon him] would not be able to achieve such a feat.

[Great I am not]

God knows the universe, because He originated it. The universe follows set patterns because He set out them patterns.

In regard to your issue on Noah's flood, who said i believe that ALL of humanity was flooded? According to Islamic sources, those who rejected Noah, and oppressed him and his followers - they were the ones who were punished. That shows it was Justice on the part of God to get rid of the oppressors.


This is why God tells us in the Qur'an continuously;

And We did not oppress them at all, but they themselves were unjust. [Qur'an 43:76]

I argue otherwise, and I put forward the argument that its impossible for so much coincidences to occur, which surpass the level of impossibility according to statistics. Hence it can't have been done except through Intelligent Design.

I writ this article showing the stats, aswell as using logic to come to that conclusion;

I invite you to check it out;

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...cal-truth.html




I affirm i require faith in God [although this is not blind faith, but logical], but you also require faith - as an atheist - in science which cannot explain what was the cause of the Big Bang. Anything which you argue is hypothesis only, hence not fact - so faith based.

So you require faith yourself.





I've mentioned this in another post of mine on the forum on the Qur'an;

No Book has ever been able to achieve what the Qur'an has been able to achieve in its miraculousness; ranging from those who hear it, recite it, memorise it (millions of people memorise it letter for letter and have done so since its time), its influence in ALL spheres of life [whether its on a personal level, to the political sphere, to transactions and fair dealings with others etc.]

It's a book which applies to ALL times, ALL places, making the most cowardly of people to be the bravest, humbling the arrogant, and reviving societies to the greatest of heights which were breaking down into nothingness. It's a Book which calls to truthfulness, and the highest of morals, calling to forgiveness, but also justice. It's the criterion between truth and falsehood, pleasing to the reader, and understandable to the layperson aswell as the intellectual.


No other book can achieve what the Qur'an can, and has achieved.

Here's a sample of its beauty;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oql3as7LJKg

This is a great sign that the Qur'an is from God, since an illiterate man [Muhammad - Peace be upon him] would not be able to achieve such a feat.

If he did at all.

You idol worship your book the same way a Fundamental Christian does his.

If you believe that God sits in a book then you would be wrong.

I think that those who do are motivated by peer pressure and tradition only.

It is an accident of birth that you follow the Qur'an instead of the Bible.

Regards
DL

[Gubbleknucker]

Your analogy is actually really good. And supports existence of God because a sane person would be able to HEAR the truck before he/she saw it and thus would move out the way (or at least take standard survival precaution!). Seeing isnt always believing ;)

The deaf, dumb and blind would be those who do not move out of the way because they cannot hear/see/understand the truck. Much like certain non-thiests who despite all the truck driver's honking (and headlights!) - or God's signs - simply do not take heed...

Turned out to be a better analogy than you thought, huh?

Nah, The only honking I hear is some ancient books. (oh, and the Jehovah's Witnesses used to come to my door until I told them I worshiped Satan. Although I do not, it gave them quite a scare)

Harry Potter is more modern, and soothes my fear of Lord Voldemort far better.

What if it is not a truck at all, but instead a black helicopter? Apparently when I announced my atheism I got one of those, too.
It is yet to arrive in the mail.

[aamirsaab]

...
What if it is not a truck at all, but instead a black helicopter? Apparently when I announced my atheism I got one of those, too.
It is yet to arrive in the mail.

Chopper, Truck, whatever. My point still stands; seeing is not always believing (which is what you were arguing last post); you have a multitude of senses amongst reasoning and logic which as a human would and do use to determine the existence of something.

[- Qatada -]

If he did at all.

You idol worship your book the same way a Fundamental Christian does his.

If you believe that God sits in a book then you would be wrong.

I think that those who do are motivated by peer pressure and tradition only.

It is an accident of birth that you follow the Qur'an instead of the Bible.

Regards
DL

You make alot of assumptions and ad hominem attacks.


I follow Islam willingly, no-one forced me and I willingly read Qur'an, infact a great deal of people [including certain family members] discourage people from practising Islam because it doesn't suit their desires.

If your atheist, i can just aswell say that you're an atheist because you don't know anything about Islam or the Quran, and you're even ignorant to a high degree of science.


It's sad how you never commented on my other points either.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^This is what happens when people like that don't have anything productive to say...they resort to attacks. What's funny is he repeated it twice lol.

Total insecurity.