The true religion.

[Gubbleknucker]

In response to the hell-fire threat in this thread:

Here is a partial list of religions. Many others have existed in the past and will exist in the future.

In some only believers are saved, in others good people are saved, in others all people go to some kind of spirit realm, in others the soul is reincarnated, in others the ancestors live among us and can speak to us through the shamens,
and in some... all are doomed.

Take your pick. Just remember: the fate of your soul depends on your answer.

Abrahamic religions
Main article: Abrahamic religions

A group of monotheistic traditions sometimes grouped with one another for comparative purposes, because all refer to a patriarch named Abraham.

[edit] Bábism
Main article: Bábism

* Azali

[edit] Bahá'í Faith
Main article: Bahá'í Faith

[edit] Christianity
Main article: Christianity
See also: List of Christian denominations

[edit] Catholicism
Main article: Catholicism

Western

* Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association

* Independent Catholic Churches
o Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
o Heenum Catholic Church
o Philippine Independent Church (In communion with the Anglican Church and the Union of Utrecht)
o Polish National Catholic Church
o Union of Utrecht (In communion with the Anglican Church)

* Old Catholicism
o Liberal Catholic Church

* Roman Catholicism (Latin Rite)
o Sui iuris (Including Byzantine Rite churches)
o Traditionalist Catholicism

Eastern

* Eastern Catholicism (Eastern Churches in Communion with Rome)

* Eastern Orthodoxy
o Eastern Orthodox Church
+ Bulgarian Orthodox Church
+ Georgian Orthodox Church
+ Greek Orthodox Church
+ Romanian Orthodox Church
+ Russian Orthodox Church
+ Serbian Orthodox Church
+ Ukrainian Orthodox Church


* Oriental Orthodoxy
o Armenian Apostolic Church
o Coptic Orthodox Church
o Ethiopian Orthodox Church

* Syriac Christianity
o Assyrian Church of the East
o Indian Orthodox Church
+ Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (In full communion with the Oriental Orthodox Church)
+ Syriac Orthodox Church (In full communion with the Oriental Orthodox Church)
o Mar Thoma Church (In full communion with the Anglican Church in India)
o Syriac Catholic Church (In full communion with Rome)

[edit] Protestantism
Main article: Protestantism

* Anglicanism (via media between the Roman Catholic Church and Protestantism)
o Anglican Communion
+ Church of England
+ Church of Ireland
+ Church of Wales
+ Episcopal Church (United States)
+ Scottish Episcopal Church
* Pre-Lutheran Protestants
o Hussites
o Lollards
o Waldensians
* Anabaptists
o Amish
o Brethren in Christ
o Church of the Brethren
o Hutterites
o Mennonites
o Old German Baptist Brethren
* Baptists
* Brethren
* Catholic Apostolic Church
* Charismatic movement
* Christadelphians
* Christian Israelite Church
* Unification Church
* Christian Science
* Dispensationalism
* Elitism
* Esoteric Christianity
* Evangelicalism
* Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster
* Lutheranism
* Methodism
* Messianic Judaism
* Most Holy Church of God in Christ Jesus
* New Thought
* Pentecostalism
o Oneness Pentecostalism
* Pietism
o Holiness movement
* Quakerism
* Reformed churches
o Puritans
o Presbyterianism
o Congregational church
* Religious Society of Friends
* Spiritism
o Espiritismo
* Swedenborgianism
o Christian Spiritualism
* United and uniting churches
* Unitarianism
* Universalism

[edit] Restorationism
Main article: Restorationism

* Adventism
o Millerites
o Sabbatarianism
o Seventh-day Adventists
* Christadelphians
* Latter Day Saint movement (Mormonism)
o Church of Christ (Temple Lot)
o Community of Christ
o Rigdonites
o The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)
o The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. LDS)
+ Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (a.k.a. FLDS)
o The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
* Iglesia ni Cristo
* Jehovah's Witnesses
* Restoration Movement

[edit] Gnosticism
Main article: List of Gnostic sects

Christian Gnosticism

* Ebionites
* Cerdonians
o Marcionism (not entirely Gnostic)
* Colorbasians
* Simonians

Early Gnosticism

* Borborites
* Cainites
* Carpocratians
* Ophites
* Hermeticism

Medieval Gnosticism

* Cathars
* Bogomils
* Paulicianism
* Tondrakians

Persian Gnosticism

* Mandaeanism
* Manichaeism
o Bagnolians

Syrian-Egyptic Gnosticism

Main article: Syrian-Egyptic Gnosticism

* Sethians
o Basilidians
o Thomasines
o Valentinians
+ Bardesanites

[edit] Islam
See also: Islam and Divisions of Islam

Kalam Schools

Main article: Kalam

* Ash'ari
* Kalam
* Maturidi
* Murji'ah
* Mu'tazili

Kharijite

Main article: Kharijite

* Ibadi (Only surviving sect)
* Azraqi
* Harūriyya
* Sufri

Shi'a Islam

Main article: Shi'a Islam

* Ismailis
o Mustaali / Bohra
* Jafari
o Twelvers
o Alawites
o Alevi / Bektashi
* Zaiddiyah

Sufism

Main article: Sufism

* Bektashi
* Chishti
* Mevlevi
* Naqshbandi
* Tariqah
* Quadiriyyah
* Suhrawardiyya
* Tijani
* Universal Sufism
o Dances of Universal Peace

Sunni Islam

Main article: Sunni Islam

* Hanafi
o Berailvi
o Deobandi
* Hanbali
* Maliki
* Shafi'i

Groups sometimes considered non-Islamic
These religious traditions are not recognized as parts of Islam by mainstream Islamic fiqh, but consider themselves to be Muslim.

* Ahl-e Haqq (Yarsan)
* Ahmadiyya
* Druze
* Nation of Islam
* Moorish Science Temple of America
* United Submitters International
* Zikri

[edit] Judaism
See also: Judaism and Jewish Denominations

Rabbinic Judaism

Main article: Rabbinic Judaism

* Conservative Judaism
o Masorti
o Conservadox Judaism
+ Union for Traditional Judaism
* Orthodox Judaism
o Haredi Judaism
o Hasidic Judaism
o Modern Orthodox Judaism
* Reform Judaism
* Progressive Judaism
o Liberal Judaism

Karaite Judaism

Main article: Karaite Judaism

Modern Non-Rabbinic Judaism

* Alternative Judaism
* Humanistic Judaism (not always identified as a religion)
* Jewish Renewal
* Reconstructionist Judaism

Historical groups

* Essenes
* Pharisees (ancestor of Rabbinic Judaism)
* Sadducees (possible ancestor of Karaite Judaism)
* Zealots
o Sicarii

Sects that believed Jesus was a prophet

* Ebionites
* Elkasites
* Nazarenes
* Sabbateans
o Frankists

[edit] Rastafari movement
Main article: Rastafari movement

[edit] Mandaeans and Sabians
Main articles: Mandaeism and Sabians

* Mandaeism
* Sabians
o Sabians of Harran
o Mandaean Nasaraean Sabeans

[edit] Samaritanism
Main article: Samaritanism

[edit] Unitarian Universalism
Main article: Unitarian Universalism

[edit] Indian religions
Main article: Indian religions

Religions that originated in Greater India and religions and traditions related to, and descended from, them.

[edit] Ayyavazhi
Main article: Ayyavazhi

[edit] Buddhism
Main article: Schools of Buddhism

* Nikaya schools (which have historically been called Hinayana in the West)
o Theravada
+ Sri Lankan Amarapura Nikaya
+ Sri Lankan Siam Nikaya
+ Sri Lankan Ramañña Nikaya
+ Bangladeshi Sangharaj Nikaya
+ Bangladeshi Mahasthabir Nikaya
+ Burmese Thudhamma Nikaya
# Vipassana tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw and disciples
+ Burmese Shwekyin Nikaya
+ Burmese Dvaya Nikaya
+ Thai Maha Nikaya
# Dhammakaya Movement
+ Thai Thammayut Nikaya
# Thai Forest Tradition
* Tradition of Ajahn Chah
* Mahayana
o Humanistic Buddhism
o Madhyamaka
+ Prāsangika
+ Svatantrika
+ Sanlun (Three Treatise school)
# Sanron
+ Maha-Madhyamaka (Jonangpa)
o Nichiren
+ Nichiren Shū
+ Nichiren Shōshū
+ Nipponzan Myōhōji
+ Soka Gakkai
o Pure Land
+ Jodo Shu
+ Jodo Shinshu
o Tathagatagarbha
+ Daśabhūmikā (absorbed into Huayan)
+ Huayan (Avataṃsaka)
# Hwaeom
# Kegon
o Tiantai
+ Tendai
+ Cheontae
o Yogācāra
+ Cittamatra in Tibet
+ Wei-Shi (Consciousness-only school) or Faxiang (Dharma-character school)
# Beopsang
# Hossō
o Chan / Zen / Seon / Thien
+ Caodong
# Sōtō
* Keizan line
* Jakuen line
* Giin line
+ Linji
# Rinzai
# Ōbaku
# Fuke Zen
# Won Buddhism: Korean Reformed Buddhism
+ Kwan Um School of Zen
+ Sanbo Kyodan
* Vajrayana
o Shingon Buddhism
o Tibetan Buddhism
+ Bön
+ Gelukpa
+ Kagyupa
# Dagpo Kagyu
* Karma Kagyu
* Barom Kagyu
* Tsalpa Kagyu
* Phagdru Kagyu
* Drikung Kagyu
* Drukpa Kagyu
# Shangpa Kagyu
+ Nyingmapa
+ Sakyapa
# Jonangpa
* New Buddhist movements
o Aum Shinrikyo (now known as Aleph)
o Diamond Way
o Friends of the Western Buddhist Order
o New Kadampa Tradition
o Share International
o True Buddha School
o Vipassana movement

[edit] Hinduism
See also: Hindu denominations and Contemporary Hindu movements

* Agama Hindu Dharma
* Hindu revivalism
* Lingayatism
* Hindu reform movements
o Arya Samaj
o Brahmo Samaj
* Shaivism
* Shaktism
* Tantrism
* Smartism
* Vaishnavism
o Gaudiya Vaishnavism
+ ISKCON (Hare Krishna)

Major schools and movements of Hindu philosophy

Main article: Hindu philosophy

* Nyaya
* Purva mimamsa
* Samkhya
* Vaisheshika
* Vedanta (Uttara Mimamsa)
o Advaita Vedanta
o Integral Yoga
o Vishishtadvaita
o Dvaita Vedanta
* Yoga
o Ashtanga Yoga
o Bhakti Yoga
o Hatha yoga
o Siddha Yoga
o Tantric Yoga

[edit] Jainism
Main article: Jainism

* Digambara
* Shvetambara

[edit] Sikhism
Main article: Sikhism

* Khalsa
o Nihang
* Namdhari or Kuka Sikhs
* Sahajdhari Sikh
* Ravidasi

[edit] Persian religions
Main article: Iranian religions

* Manichaeism
* Mazdakism
* Yazdânism
o Alevi
o Yarsani
o Yazidi
* Zoroastrianism
o Zurvanism

[edit] East Asian religions
Main article: East Asian religions

[edit] Confucianism
Main article: Confucianism

* Neo-Confucianism
* New Confucianism

[edit] Shinto
Main articles: Shinto and Shinto sects and schools

[edit] Taoism
Main article: Taoism

[edit] Other

* Caodaism
* Chondogyo
* Chinese folk religion
* Falun Gong
* I-Kuan Tao
* Jeung San Do
* Legalism
* Mohism

[edit] African diasporic religions

African diasporic religions are a number of related religions that developed in the Americas among African slaves and their descendants in various countries of the Caribbean Islands and Latin America, as well as parts of the southern United States. They derive from African traditional religions, especially of West and Central Africa, showing similarities to the Yoruba religion in particular.
See also: African diasporic religions

* Batuque
* Candomblé
* Dahomey mythology
* Haitian mythology
* Kumina
* Macumba
* Mami Wata
* Obeah
* Oyotunji
* Quimbanda
* Santería (Lukumi)
* Umbanda
* Vodou

[edit] Indigenous traditional religions
See also: Paganism and Folk religion

Traditionally, these faiths have all been classified "Pagan", but scholars prefer the terms "indigenous/primal/folk/ethnic religions".

[edit] African
Main article: African traditional religions

West Africa

* Akan mythology
* Ashanti mythology (Ghana)
* Dahomey (Fon) mythology
* Efik mythology (Nigeria, Cameroon)
* Igbo mythology (Nigeria, Cameroon)
* Isoko mythology (Nigeria)
* Yoruba mythology (Nigeria, Benin)

Central Africa

* Bushongo mythology (Congo)
* Bambuti (Pygmy) mythology (Congo)
* Lugbara mythology (Congo)

East Africa

* Akamba mythology (East Kenya)
* Dinka mythology (Sudan)
* Lotuko mythology (Sudan)
* Masai mythology (Kenya, Tanzania)

Southern Africa

* Khoikhoi mythology
* Lozi mythology (Zambia)
* Tumbuka mythology (Malawi)
* Zulu mythology (South Africa)

[edit] American
Main article: Native American mythology

* Abenaki mythology
* Aztec mythology
* Blackfoot mythology
* Cherokee mythology
* Chickasaw mythology
* Choctaw mythology
* Creek mythology
* Crow mythology
* Ghost Dance
* Guarani mythology
* Haida mythology
* Ho-Chunk mythology
* Hopi mythology
* Huron mythology
* Inca mythology
* Inuit mythology
* Iroquois mythology
* Kwakiutl mythology
* Lakota mythology
* Leni Lenape mythology
* Longhouse religion
* Maya mythology
* Midewiwin
* Native American Church
* Navajo mythology
* Nootka mythology
* Olmec mythology
* Pawnee mythology
* Salish mythology
* Seneca mythology
* Selk'nam religion
* Tsimshian mythology
* Urarina
* Ute mythology
* Zuni mythology

[edit] Eurasian
Main article: Eurasian Indigenous Religions

Asian

* Bön
* Chinese mythology
* Japanese mythology
* Koshinto
* Siberian Shamanism
* Tengriism

European

* Estonian mythology
* Eskimo religion
* Finnish mythology and Finnish paganism
* Hungarian folk religion
* Sami religion (including the Noaidi)
* Tadibya

[edit] Oceania/Pacific

* Australian Aboriginal mythology
* Austronesian beliefs
o Balinese mythology
o Javanese beliefs
o Melanesian mythology
o Micronesian mythology
+ Modekngei
+ Nauruan indigenous religion
o Philippine mythology
+ Anito
+ Gabâ
+ Kulam
o Polynesian mythology
+ Hawaiian mythology
+ Maori mythology
# Maori religion
+ Rapa Nui mythology
# Moai
# Tangata manu

[edit] Cargo cults
Main article: Cargo cults

* John Frum
* Johnson cult
* Prince Philip Movement
* Vailala Madness

[edit] Historical polytheism
Further information: Prehistoric religion and History of religion

[edit] Ancient Near Eastern
Main article: Ancient Near Eastern religions

* Ancient Egyptian religion
* Ancient Semitic religions
* Mesopotamian mythology
o Arabian mythology (pre-Islamic)
o Babylonian and Assyrian religion
+ Babylonian mythology
+ Chaldean mythology
o Canaanite mythology
+ Canaanite religion
o Hittite mythology
o Persian mythology
o Sumerian mythology

[edit] Indo-European
Main article: Proto-Indo-European religion

* Proto-Indo-Iranian religion
o Zoroastrianism
o Historical Vedic religion
* Baltic polytheism
* Celtic polytheism
o Brythonic mythology
o Gaelic mythology
* Germanic polytheism
o Anglo-Saxon religion
o Norse religion
o Continental Germanic religion
* Greek polytheism
* Hungarian polytheism
* Finnish polytheism
* Roman polytheism
* Slavic polytheism

[edit] Hellenistic
Main article: Hellenistic religion

* Mystery religions
o Eleusinian Mysteries
o Mithraism
o Orphism
* Pythagoreanism
* Early Christianity
* Gallo-Roman religion

[edit] Neopaganism
Main article: List of Neopagan movements

[edit] New Age, Esotericism, Mysticism
Main articles: New Age, Esotericism, and Mysticism

* Anthroposophy
* Christian mysticism
* Esoteric Christianity
* Hindu mysticism
* Martinism
* Meher Baba
* Nazi mysticism
* Occultism
* Rosicrucian
o Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis
o Ancient Order of the Rosicrucians
o Rosicrucian Fellowship
* Surat Shabd Yoga
o Tantra
+ Ananda Marga Tantra-Yoga
* Sufism
* Thelema

[edit] Left-Hand Path
Main article: Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path

* Luciferianism
* Satanism
* Setianism

[edit] Magic
Main article: Magic (religion)

* Hoodoo (Rootwork)
o New Orleans Voodoo
* Kulam - Filipino witchcraft
* Magick
o Chaos magic
o Enochian magic
o Demonolatry
+ Goetia
* Pow-wow
* Seid (shamanic magic)
* Vaastu Shastra
* Witchcraft

[edit] New religious movements
Main article: List of new religious movements

[edit] Shinshukyo
Main article: Shinshūkyō

* Church of World Messianity
* PL Kyodan
* Seicho-No-Ie

[edit] Fictional religions
Main article: List of fictional religions

[edit] Parody or mock religions

* Church of Euthanasia
* Church of the SubGenius
* The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
* Invisible Pink Unicorn
* Kibology
* Landover Baptist Church
* Church of Milesology

[edit] Others

* Unitarian Universalism
* Discordianism
* Ethical Culture
* Fellowship of Reason
* Humanism
* Secular Humanism
* Juche
* Subud

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ual_traditions

[AntiKarateKid]

You assume that they are all equally valid. Scholarly debate should eliminate most of not all of the others on that list.

Id take the religion that:

1. Has an unchanged scripture
2. Uses reason anchored by revelation
3. Has clear answers for important topics
4. Has demonstrable miracles.

[Gubbleknucker]

You assume that they are all equally valid. Scholarly debate should eliminate most of not all of the others on that list.

Without faith, all are eliminated.

[Charzhino]

So what is this trying to proove?

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[Gubbleknucker]

Id take the religion that:

1. Has an unchanged scripture
2. Uses reason anchored by revelation
3. Has clear answers for important topics
4. Has demonstrable miracles.

Most of them claim to have all four.

... by the way, where are these miracles?

[Gubbleknucker]

So what is this trying to proove?

Every single one of you is probably ****ed.:rollseyes

[Blackpool]

Football - The True Religion of the UK

[Gubbleknucker]

Football - The True Religion of the UK

haha, true enough :D

[AntiKarateKid]

Without faith, all are eliminated.

Wrong. Faith should have a reasonable basis. I have faith that my teacher won't start tap dancing on the table during the next class.

[AntiKarateKid]

Most of them claim to have all four.

... by the way, where are these miracles?

Just because you claim something doesn't make it true. Prophecies the Quran makes are good examples. In addition to the fact that 1400 years later, people haven't been able to produce a similar work of Arab literature. Which is strange since according to non-believers Propeht Muhammad pbuh was just a regular guy or he was mad.

[Gubbleknucker]

Please provide specifics...

Prophecy? I think of...
Nostradamus

[- Qatada -]

Nostradamous was vague, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was specific and more accurate.

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...rophecies.html

[Gubbleknucker]

Anything that is both specific AND verifiable?
..and not postdictive?

[جوري]

really, neopaganism, Hinduism, shintoism, Haitian mythology just to name a few from that above beefy list claim to be Abrahamic in origin? who came up with this list? an atheist with alot of time on his hands? Hilarious!

can soft and hard and reformed and republican and democratic and orthodox atheists claim a direct link to dawkin?..

[جوري]

by the way, when you make such allegations it is best to defend them. I expect that you show the link between each of the above listed and their relationship to Abrahamic faith to a level! ...

all the best

[Zafran]

most of those are not even religions -

[Sarada]

Thank-you Gubbleknucker, for this very comprehensive list of beliefs. Which is correct?
One of them, some of them, all of them? or is their no god at all?

In my view, any belief (or non belief), as long as it is sincere, and does not cause harm to others, does not promote hatred of any kind is valid.

The Truth of no belief can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt either in a court of law or by the scientific method. Who, therefore, am I to discredit anyone's faith? Granted, their are some primitive religions who have some practices may not fit with our modern science, but they work for the people and societies in which they flourish.

Religious beliefs and faith depend on the level of intellectual and spiritual development of the individual. So, it seems logical that a person chooses the (non) belief that most resonates with him/her.

The right to worship, or not worship as one chooses is a basic human right. No one should be hated or ridiculed for their beliefs.

[Sarada]

really, neopaganism, Hinduism, shintoism, Haitian mythology just to name a few from that above beefy list claim to be Abrahamic in origin? who came up with this list? an atheist with alot of time on his hands? Hilarious!

can soft and hard and reformed and republican and democratic and orthodox atheists claim a direct link to dawkin?..

Check the list again, none of the religions that you mentioned above are associated with Abrahamic religions according to the list.

[جوري]

Check the list again, none of the religions that you mentioned above are associated with Abrahamic religions according to the list.

I have gone over the list, the alleged religions are far removed from 'Abrahamic' unless the term holds a meaning for them than to those who actually follow it.

[cool_jannah]

In my view, any belief (or non belief), as long as it is sincere, and does not cause harm to others, does not promote hatred of any kind is valid.

If you were truly sincere, you would be a Muslim by now. It doesnt take long to realize and acknowledge the truth.

Funny how the original post has all the schools of thought under Sunni Islam as if they are somethig out of Islam. Ignorance is a very bad thing I guess.

Firstly, we have to come to the conclusion that there is ONE God. Now, if there is One God there has to be only One truth. You cannot be a sincere and peaceful "snake worshipper" and a sincere peaceful worshipper of the One True God Who created the universe, independent of any needs, and claim that both of these groups are on the "truth". NO! There is only one truth.

Life is a test. We have to declare the Shahadah before we die.
Its amazing how we work hard every day to make sure our lives are peaceful and happy. Unfortunately, we are neglecting the true life that is awaiting us after death. We want HVAC system in our houses to make sure we have the right temperature in the house. The hell fire is 500 times hottter than the fire of this world. Belief in the Oneness of God and His messengers is the key to Paradise.

'Truly Hell is a place of ambush.
For the transgressors a place of dwelling.
They will abide therein for ages.
Nothing cool shall they taste therein, Nor any drink.
Except boiling water, and dirty wound discharges.
An exact recompense (according to their crimes).
For that they used not to look for any account.
But they (impudently) treated Our signs as false.
And all things have We preserved on record.
So taste ye (the fruits of your deeds);
For no increase shall We grant you;
Except in Chastisement.'
(Surah An-Nabaa: 21-30)

...and this is NOT scare tactics, this is the truth.

[Zafran]

salaam

The list is from Wikipedia ......... that explains why the list is so heavily flawed.

peace.

[barrio79]

Gubbleknucker started this thread looking for the true religion partially from the list that he found and partially from the knowledge possessed by his fellow posters .

So remembering that skeptics only need a little proof is any one going to help him.

[جوري]

do they need 'little proof' or perhaps the more pressing issue is an immediate remedy to their echolalia just to loan the rest of their credo some validation.....

[barrio79]

what in the name of echolalia echolalia echolalia does that mean

[جوري]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[Pygoscelis]

In addition to the fact that 1400 years later, people haven't been able to produce a similar work of Arab literature.

I have run across this claim a few times now. Its a bit vague. What would qualify as "a similar work of arab literature?" and who would decide if something somebody wrote was one? It seems to me that no matter what we write the muslims are going to declare it not "a similar work of arab literature", simply to maintain this claim (and thus making it pretty self fulfilling and empty).

Peace.

[- Qatada -]

I have run across this claim a few times now. Its a bit vague. What would qualify as "a similar work of arab literature?" and who would decide if something somebody wrote was one? It seems to me that no matter what we write the muslims are going to declare it not "a similar work of arab literature", simply to maintain this claim (and thus making it pretty self fulfilling and empty).

Peace.

No Book has ever been able to achieve what the Qur'an has been able to achieve in its miraculousness; ranging from those who hear it, recite it, memorise it (millions of people memorise it letter for letter and have done since its time), its influence in ALL spheres of life [whether its on a personal level, to the political sphere, to transactions and fair dealings with others etc.]

It's a book which applies to ALL times, ALL places, making the most cowardly of people to be the bravest, humbling the arrogant, and reviving societies to the greatest of heights which were breaking down into nothingness. It's a Book which calls to truthfulness, and the highest of morals, calling to forgiveness, but also justice. It's the criterion between truth and falsehood, pleasing to the reader, and understandable to the layperson aswell as the intellectual.


No other book can achieve what the Qur'an can, and has achieved.


Here's a sample of its beauty;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oql3as7LJKg

[Gubbleknucker]

I even referenced Wikipedia in my original post. If I had made the list I would have included the separate Christian denominations as well.

At the time I was thinking about Pascal's wager...

If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....

..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.

Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."

Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.

"That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite

[Gubbleknucker]

The right to worship, or not worship as one chooses is a basic human right. No one should be hated or ridiculed for their beliefs.

I believe in rights based in property.
We own ourselves and we own our minds.

I think the right to belief is part of our right to our minds...
and that any violation of human rights is evil.

I personally lean towards Wicca in this respect:
"An it harm none, do as you will"

They ruin the whole thing by making claims of "magic" and the "law of threes", however.

As a skeptic, I do need proof in order to believe; in the stronghold of Pascal's wager I would only be lying to myself.

No other book can achieve what the Qur'an can, and has achieved.

Many people claim the same thing of the Bible.



Again, I lean towards pantheism/wicca:
from what I see, Nature has accomplished far more than any Holy Book.

[Sarada]

I believe in rights based in property.
We own ourselves and we own our minds.

I think the right to belief is part of our right to our minds...
and that any violation of human rights is evil.

I personally lean towards Wicca in this respect:
"An it harm none, do as you will"

They ruin the whole thing by making claims of "magic" and the "law of threes", however.

As a skeptic, I do need proof in order to believe; in the stronghold of Pascal's wager I would only be lying to myself.


Many people claim the same thing of the Bible.



Again, I lean towards pantheism/wicca:
from what I see, Nature has accomplished far more than any Holy Book.

To celebrate the cycle/circle of life is a wonderful thing. The ancient tribes of Great Britain and Northern Europe had some wonderful rites and rituals. I myself like to mark the winter and summer soltice every year. I believe that Wicca is a modern attempt at recovering some those rituals.

It is a shame and a crime that when Christianity gained a foothold, it destroyed most or even all of the texts describing these rites.

[Zafran]

To celebrate the cycle/circle of life is a wonderful thing. The ancient tribes of Great Britain and Northern Europe had some wonderful rites and rituals. I myself like to mark the winter and summer soltice every year. I believe that Wicca is a modern attempt at recovering some those rituals.

It is a shame and a crime that when Christianity gained a foothold, it destroyed most or even all of the texts describing these rites.

Not realy - the Druids had a oral tradition and didnt actually write there religous works down - atleast thats what I heard in a university lecture.

some of these cults still exist - they sometimes turn up at stonehenge when there is an excavation going on.

[Gubbleknucker]

To celebrate the cycle/circle of life is a wonderful thing. The ancient tribes of Great Britain and Northern Europe had some wonderful rites and rituals. I myself like to mark the winter and summer soltice every year. I believe that Wicca is a modern attempt at recovering some those rituals.

I have to go with Einstein on this one:
"If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "

I particularly enjoy gazing at the full moon. Shouldn't it be about full tonight?

The sun hasn't quite set here yet but I think it is... it was almost full and still waxing yesterday.

It is a shame and a crime that when Christianity gained a foothold, it destroyed most or even all of the texts describing these rites.

yeah...
Exodus 22:18:
"thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
Horrible.

I like "an it harm none, do as you will" better :D

[Sarada]

Not realy - the Druids had a oral tradition and didnt actually write there religous works down - atleast thats what I heard in a university lecture.

some of these cults still exist - they sometimes turn up at stonehenge when there is an excavation going on.

Yes it appears that the Druids had an oral tradition, but I was not referring only to them. There were other pagan traditions that did use the written word as well.

Say for example the Norse Sagas. It is fortunate that these still exist in Iceland, because most Norse writings were destroyed in Continental Europe.

[soloqi]

Islam, is a complete version which has roots in the Abrahamic faith, which have roots in paganism. Why is it most religions take about the oneness of all things, this is the core of religion,a belief that we are part of something beyond our imagaination.
Even Taoism talk about this concept, all aspect of of duality that exist in one concept.
We are manifestations of our creator in various forms.
Some call this the divine spark, other call it the inner light. all are practices that bring us closer to our creator.
Some may call this the higher consciousness.
there is a common theme, the more people accept this the easier it will be to deal with each other, so im lead to believe.

[جوري]

Greetings,

I'd refrain from speaking about Islam if the Islam you profess and practice doesn't fall within the circumscribes of the religion...
I don't believe you to be well versed in Islamic history, let alone its tenets.

all the best

[Sarada]

...Why is it most religions take about the oneness of all things, this is the core of religion,a belief that we are part of something beyond our imagaination.
Even Taoism talk about this concept, all aspect of of duality that exist in one concept.
We are manifestations of our creator in various forms.
Some call this the divine spark, other call it the inner light. all are practices that bring us closer to our creator.
Some may call this the higher consciousness.
there is a common theme, the more people accept this the easier it will be to deal with each other, so im lead to believe.

I agree with you completely.

[/I]

[جوري]

and with that it is settled that 'soloqi's religion is akin to Hinduism with its pagan roots than Islam as conciliated by a like mind.. we hope to close this chapter with him changing his way of life to a more appropriate and allowing group..

[soloqi]

I have no stock in religion, by the very word we create the lunacy of fanatics that call the will to god. Godliness or what God desires in in my heart and mind and soul. So long as everyday i become a better person this is gods will.
I follow a faith called Islam, And through older teachings I have come to believe that all faiths have a common theme, which is seem once you rid yourselves of social conditioning, asking questions and finding the answers out for myself.
And more and more do i find other people understand this, but its easier to talk then it is to understand written words.

[جوري]

You are free to follow the path of your choosing, and if that 'in your heart' is your calling, you are also free to dream up phrases of fanaticism and apply them to the party of your choosing.. that is your opinion...

Your opinion strays from Islam, and Allah swt warns us about following our whims in lieu of the straight path!


[Pickthal 53:28] And they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but a guess, and lo! a guess can never take the place of the truth.
[Pickthal 53:29] Then withdraw from him who fleeth from Our remembrance and desireth but the life of the world.
[Pickthal 53:30] Such is their sum of knowledge. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth, and He is Best Aware of him whom goeth right.

[Ali_008]

if you follow your heart and not look for the rules set by Allah then you are no less than an Atheist. An atheist doesn't follow a scripture which orders him to do the right thing but of course if you're doind theology or in other words studying various religions of the world then you'll find one common statement in all and thats "God is one and only he deserves worship". Its absolute pity that people of various beliefs have completely ignored that part of their scripture and misinterpreted other verses and now worshipping things of their own manufacture.

[soloqi]

Following my whims as you call them can also be refered to as instinctual.
My awareness however allows me to over ride my whims as you call them.
Phrases of fanaticism, I didnt think it would come across as that, The devils know their own i guess.

Awareness is knowing the truth of things, the truth is vvery simple. consciousness is awareness, higher consciousness....well that speaks for its self. That takes dedication and patience, and knowing thy self.

We all know the prophet meditated, he increased his perception/ consciousness/ awareness. And awareness is knowning the truth of things.
Something we all should do, being more aware of ourselves.

[جوري]

being aware of self is great indeed, it falls in the range and scope of what is perceived.. but what is perceived and what is, differ!...

religion is an institution.. self-awareness is an individual affair...

all the best

[rpwelton]

First of all, not all of those "religions" believe in God.

Secondly, even fewer of those on the list believe in an afterlife. Some believe in only heaven, others in heaven and hell, and others believe in some other concept like reincarnation or nirvana or something similar of the sort.

Thirdly, even fewer than that are those religions that are exclusive (ie, you must believe in them to get to heaven).

I believe the only two religions you have left after narrowing the list down are Christianity and Islam out of the world's major religions or "religious philosophies".

[Gubbleknucker]

First of all, not all of those "religions" believe in God.

Secondly, even fewer of those on the list believe in an afterlife. Some believe in only heaven, others in heaven and hell, and others believe in some other concept like reincarnation or nirvana or something similar of the sort.

Thirdly, even fewer than that are those religions that are exclusive (ie, you must believe in them to get to heaven).

I stated the bulk of this in my original post

I believe the only two religions you have left after narrowing the list down are Christianity and Islam out of the world's major religions or "religious philosophies".

So you're saying that only the religions that offer a threat of some kind to the nonbelievers really count as religion?

well....

What about Judaism?

The Sabbateans believe in one god ( I don't understand why this is a criteria for whether a religion is a religion, however) and an exclusive afterlife.

In the Order of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:rollseyes, the nonbelievers are crushed beneath Her golden hooves.

In the Mayan traditions the world will literally end if the gods are not worshiped.

Furthermore, there is a chasm in between the divisions of those faiths that fit your criteria.
Lutheranism/Catholicism
Bahá'í Faith/Islam

[Zafran]

I stated the bulk of this in my original post


So you're saying that only the religions that offer a threat of some kind to the nonbelievers really count as religion?

well....

What about Judaism?

The Sabbateans believe in one god ( I don't understand why this is a criteria for whether a religion is a religion, however) and an exclusive afterlife.

In the Order of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:rollseyes, the nonbelievers are crushed beneath Her golden hooves.

In the Mayan traditions the world will literally end if the gods are not worshiped.

Furthermore, there is a chasm in between the divisions of those faiths that fit your criteria.
Lutheranism/Catholicism
Bahá'í Faith/Islam

Slowly your reducing the religions down.

What about Judaism?

Jews believe that you dont have to be jew to achieve "salvation" anyway. Heavily exclusive religion.

The others are near to exitinction or are extinct

Bahai realy doesnt have a great a bases anyway -

Lutheranism/Catholicism

The root to salvation is similar with the above.

[Gubbleknucker]

Slowly you're reducing the religions down.

No, I'm not.

I don't see why the criteria of an exclusive afterlife should be applied beyond Pascal's wager, which doesn't qualify as belief, anyway.

What if there is a mighty pig god?
Most of the non-Muslims (and non-Jews) would be just as bad off as they would be if Allah was real.
However, He would not appreciate your view of Him as filthy, and would probably punish you, as well.

The only people who would be spared would be the vegetarian atheists, unless the pig god wanted the humans to somehow discover his existence without any evidence.

I've eaten a lot of bacon, and this pig god is probably very displeased with me.

[rpwelton]

I stated the bulk of this in my original post


So you're saying that only the religions that offer a threat of some kind to the nonbelievers really count as religion?

well....

What about Judaism?

The Sabbateans believe in one god ( I don't understand why this is a criteria for whether a religion is a religion, however) and an exclusive afterlife.

In the Order of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:rollseyes, the nonbelievers are crushed beneath Her golden hooves.

In the Mayan traditions the world will literally end if the gods are not worshiped.

Furthermore, there is a chasm in between the divisions of those faiths that fit your criteria.
Lutheranism/Catholicism
Bahá'í Faith/Islam

Judaism nowadays says that you don't have to be a Jew to go to heaven (you just have to adhere to the 7 Noah-tide laws). This is one of the reasons why Jews no longer proselytize their faith.

As for the Sabbateans, this is an offshoot cult from Judaism, so it's natural to see many of the older Judaic teachings present within it (when Judaism used to be an exclusive religion.

The Mayans believed in cycles of time. As for the world being destroyed after the gods are no longer worshipped: what does that mean? Not a whole lot is known about their religion beyond that.

Nice try with the pink unicorn thing; basically it's just a satire of religion in general.

Regarding the choosing of various sects within Christianity and Islam (and by the way, Baha'ism is not a sect of Islam, but its own separate religion), it makes the most sense to see what was practiced at the time of the Messenger of that religion according to scripture and traditions.

Thus, for Islam it makes most sense to look at the life of Muhammad and what he and his companions practiced. Any acts of worship or belief that they did not take part in, is not considered an authentic part of the religion.

Likewise for Jesus.

Anyways, the reason why exclusivity matters is because if a religion is inclusive, then who cares if you believe in it or not? If a religion doesn't have an afterlife, then again, why should you need to believe in it? If a religion doesn't even believe in God, then of course you wouldn't need to believe in that religion because salvation is a moot point.

So you can see how we can most easily reduce that list down to Christianity and Islam.

[Gubbleknucker]

Again, that's just Pascal's wager...

[rpwelton]

Again, that's just Pascal's wager...

Only if you choose not to look at evidence.

Most people assume that God can in no way be proven or that there is no such thing as "evidence" for a religion.

This is largely due to the influence of Christianity. While I don't want to get into a tangent here and would rather not start debating about Christianity, it basically stems from the notion that you really just need to have faith. In Christianity, there is no emphasis on knowledge or evidence about God; it's really just about believing.

Islam approaches it from an entirely different angle. It says you need knowledge about God before you can have faith. As Muslims we believe that there is so much evidence out there for not only the existence of God, but for Islam as a religion.

A person does need faith, but it's not blind faith. It's faith based upon sound reasoning, logic and evidences.

[Zafran]

No, I'm not.

I don't see why the criteria of an exclusive afterlife should be applied beyond Pascal's wager, which doesn't qualify as belief, anyway.

What if there is a mighty pig god?
Most of the non-Muslims (and non-Jews) would be just as bad off as they would be if Allah was real.
However, He would not appreciate your view of Him as filthy, and would probably punish you, as well.

The only people who would be spared would be the vegetarian atheists, unless the pig god wanted the humans to somehow discover his existence without any evidence.

I've eaten a lot of bacon, and this pig god is probably very displeased with me.

Theres very little warning on that - But the warning By the God of Abhrham pbuh are many. Its up to you turn away.

[Gubbleknucker]

I tried to trap the tooth fairy when I was little.
I needed proof of her existence, as I suspected that there were other explanations for the money that I found under the pillow.
This is how I view the non-threatening religious faiths.

Put fear in the mix, and you discover what I did to Santa Clause.

I didn't want that creepy old man coming in my house! I didn't care whether it would get me presents. I blocked up the chimney and got my parents to take down all the lights!

This was when I was three years old...

[aamirsaab]

I tried to trap the tooth fairy when I was little.
I needed proof of her existence, as I suspected that there were other explanations for the money that I found under the pillow.
This is how I view the non-threatening religious faiths.

Put fear in the mix, and you discover what I did to Santa Clause.

I didn't want that creepy old man coming in my house! I didn't care whether it would get me presents. I blocked up the chimney and got my parents to take down all the lights!

This was when I was three years old...

First off; God does not equate to Santa or Tooth fairy. Apples and orange argument.

Second of all, you keep ignoring what religion has to offer, specifically Islam: legal systems, inter-banking relationships, economical theories and practical solutions to TODAYS problems; animal welfare; warfare; medical; scientific; social and psychological.

All of those are covered by Islam; your methodology of comparing God/Religion to Santa and Tooth fairy is very oversimplified if not downright wrong.

[- Qatada -]

I tried to trap the tooth fairy when I was little.
I needed proof of her existence, as I suspected that there were other explanations for the money that I found under the pillow.
This is how I view the non-threatening religious faiths.

Put fear in the mix, and you discover what I did to Santa Clause.

I didn't want that creepy old man coming in my house! I didn't care whether it would get me presents. I blocked up the chimney and got my parents to take down all the lights!

This was when I was three years old...

You think you're on the truth simply because certain stories were told to you as a child, which don't even make logical sense. Then due to these stories, you make a sweeping generalisation that everything else is false which doesn't fit in with your paradigm. Hence its a logically flawed argument and subjective.

Believing in God is more than that, many intelligent people come to the belief in God simply because its logically plausible and is the best explanation of the universe and its precision around us.

[جوري]

Sob7an Allah.. are we humoring the derisions of atheists now?

[53:29] Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world.
[ 53:30] That is as far as knowledge will reach them. Verily thy Lord knoweth best those who stray from His Path, and He knoweth best those who receive guidance.

[barrio79]

You think you're on the truth simply because certain stories were told to you as a child, which don't even make logical sense. Then due to these stories, you make a sweeping generalisation that everything else is false which doesn't fit in with your paradigm. Hence its a logically flawed argument and subjective.

Believing in God is more than that, many intelligent people come to the belief in God simply because its logically plausible and is the best explanation of the universe and its precision around us.

"Believing in God is more than that, many intelligent people come to the belief in God simply because its logically plausible and is the best explanation of the "

Could you list some please , otherwise some may feel that this statement is a type of generalisation

[جوري]

let's see
there is Dr. Jeffrey Lang
Dr. Dr. Laurence B. Brown, MD

Dr. Hoffman

and here is a whole bunch of videos to make your search easier..

A German Physician and His Wife Converted to Islam

YouTube - A German Physician and His Wife Converted to Islam

Science students turn to islam :

YouTube - Canadian Science student Revert find peace & logic in Islam


Czech and European Scientists Revert to Islam

YouTube - Czech Scientist Reverts to Islam


Scientist Converts/Reverts to Islam after Studying Qur'an

YouTube - Scientist Converts/Reverts to Islam after Studying Qur'an

Scientists testify to islam with islamic proof

YouTube - scientists testify to islam with islamic proof

Western Scientists Embracing Islam

YouTube - Western Scientists Embracing Islam

Yusuf Estes - Science proves Quran is from Allah 1/7- Watch all 7 parts

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h_u5bkXHuJE


Prof. of Mathematics (Ex-Atheist) on Accepting Islam 1/3

YouTube - Prof. of Mathematics (Ex-Atheist) on Accepting Islam 1/3

Prof. of Mathematics (Ex-Atheist) on Accepting Islam 2/3

YouTube - Prof. of Mathematics (Ex-Atheist) on Accepting Islam 2/3


Prof. of Mathematics (Ex-Atheist) on Accepting Islam 3/3

YouTube - Prof. of Mathematics (Ex-Atheist) on Accepting Islam 3/3


Christian Professor converts to Islam

YouTube - Christian Professor converts to Islam

Dr.Webber from England converts to ISLAM

YouTube - Dr.Webber from England converts to ISLAM

What Scientists Said About Quran !!!A MUST SEE 4 EVERYONE!!!

YouTube - What Scientists Said About Quran !!!A MUST SEE 4 EVERYONE!!!

British Catholic Priest Converted To ISLAM

YouTube - British Catholic Priest Converted To ISLAM

[- Qatada -]

"Believing in God is more than that, many intelligent people come to the belief in God simply because its logically plausible and is the best explanation of the "

Could you list some please , otherwise some may feel that this statement is a type of generalisation

Intelligent people refers to people from all fields of life, throughout history and even in the present.


Believing in God isn't a scientific issue only, it involves way more than that. Many who affirm their belief in God agree that they don't use science to argue in favour of His existence.

[Gubbleknucker]

I was not saying that religion was exactly equal to a belief in the tooth fairy.

I was just saying that I am obviously a born skeptic.


Who are you to question Allah's wisdom in making me this way?:bump1:

[- Qatada -]

I was not saying that religion was exactly equal to a belief in the tooth fairy.

I was just saying that I am obviously a born skeptic.


Who are you to question Allah's wisdom in making me this way?:bump1:

Being a skeptic is one thing, denying facts or the most plausible conclusions when they come to you is a sign of arrogance.


Allah gave you the choice to believe or disbelieve, but you will be held accountable for your ownself on Judgment Day.

[barrio79]

"Being a skeptic is one thing, denying facts or the most plausible conclusions when they come to you is a sign of arrogance."

this may well be true but it does not exactly specify who are the deny-ers , perhaps it means all those who deny the power of the original greek deities or the dreamtime stories of aboriginal peoples

[barrio79]

World's oldest Christian bible is available now online as a little bit of proof of its existence
many intelligent persons say it is truly written; on animal hide 1600 years ago .


Original manuscripts written on animal hide

A COPY of the world's oldest bible that has been made available online will help unlock several mysteries of Christianity, experts say.
The Codex Sinaiticus was hand-written by four scribes in Greek on animal hide in the mid-fourth century around the time of the Roman emperor Constantine.
Head of Western manuscripts at the British Library Scot McKendrick says that the digitising of the historical artefact means academics can examine the early workings of Christianity.
"The limits on access to this manuscript previously have meant that people have tended to dip, so that they have seized on particular things,” Mr McKrendrick said.
"This 1,600-year-old manuscript offers a window into the development of early Christianity and first-hand evidence of how the text of the Bible was transmitted from generation to generation,” he said.
The Bible's remaining 800 pages and fragments - originally some 1,400 pages -contains half of the Old Testament. The other half has been lost while some pages have been rendered unreadable.
The Bible can be viewed online at www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/, includes modern Greek translations and some sections translated into English.

[- Qatada -]

this may well be true but it does not exactly specify who are the deny-ers , perhaps it means all those who deny the power of the original greek deities or the dreamtime stories of aboriginal peoples

And that's EXACTLY why God's given you an intellect.


Do you believe that there are many gods at the same time?

If there is more than One God, the other gods would compete with each other to make their own decisions. So if one god wanted it to rain, and another wanted it to be sunny, whose choice would come into effect?

Whoever lost, the other would be inferior - therefore not God. Since God is Perfect.

So there can only be One God.



Do you think that God set out the universe in a way that it would sustain and contain life? Yes. This is the case in the universe we live in.

If God has set out laws for the whole of creation, where we see that the planets revolve around the sun, the night follows the day, and the day follows the night. The rain comes in the exact amount - by the mercy of God - to water the plants for us so we have foods of different colours, smells and flavours for our benefit.


Do you think then, that this One God wouldn't send a perfect guidance for those who He has provided for since they've been born and till they die?


Wouldn't this guidance be the best guidance, which history has proven to benefit humanity at its peak? And wouldn't this guidance be for ALL aspects of life? Ranging from how to treat your wife kindly, to running a whole state with justice?


Wouldn't this guidance be given to a human like us, who we read about and is trustworthy in all aspects, who never lied once in his life, and we know all about him from trustworthy people? Wouldn't God send us a Messenger to be an example for the rest of mankind till the Day of Judgment?


Wouldn't this Messenger call to all that is good, a criterion between wrong and right, truth and falsehood, affirming what the previous Messengers of God called to of monotheism [like Moses, Jesus, Abraham etc], feeding the needy, uniting the black and white, keeping the family ties strong, and giving good news [to those who do good] and warning [those who do evil] of a Day which ALL of mankind - one by one - will be judged on all that they did in this life? Then they will either be rewarded or punished by God for their own deeds?


If you affirm this, then you by heart believe in Islam [which literally means submission to God.]



If you affirm this, i recommend you check this link for more info on the basics of Islam and ask any questions you have on the forum here;

http://islamreligion.com




Peace barrio.

[barrio79]

If there is more than One God, the other gods would compete with each other to make their own decisions. So if one god wanted it to rain, and another wanted it to be sunny, whose choice would come into effect?


That's why ZEUS reigns supreme .

Believing in God is more than that, many intelligent people come to the belief in God simply because its logically plausible and is the best explanation of the universe and its precision around us.

The dreamtime stories are 10,000 years old and explain the universe quite adequately

['Abd-al Latif]

If there is more than One God, the other gods would compete with each other to make their own decisions. So if one god wanted it to rain, and another wanted it to be sunny, whose choice would come into effect?


That's why ZEUS reigns supreme .

Believing in God is more than that, many intelligent people come to the belief in God simply because its logically plausible and is the best explanation of the universe and its precision around us.

The dreamtime stories are 10,000 years old and explain the universe quite adequately

ZEUS?

"Do you worship what you have carved yourself?" (Qur'an 37:95)

[Gubbleknucker]

Lets take this back a step, I don't want to have this debate. It is quite wearying and turns up far too often.
___________________________


Earlier, people were narrowing down the list based on Pascal's wager, which I have rejected.

All of these religions are religions in their own respect.

I have another method of cutting most of them out:
The supernatural does not exist. If the goal is truth, let's eliminate all those that require the supernatural.

This leaves us with:
Pantheism,
Le'Vayan Satanism,
The Church of Euthanasia,
and some of the sects of Buddhism.
(if there are any others, please tell me)


The Church of Euthanasia is a mock religion, and Le'Vayan Satanism is just a kind of rebellion against authority.
So we have Pantheism and part of Buddhism.

I have already posted my rejection of the Four Noble Truths.

Pantheism it is.
All it requires is a total redefinition of the term "god" to mean "nature and the universe".


But why narrow down the list at all? People believe in all of these things.

[جوري]

excuse me but what is this above drivel all about? I am trying to see how 'Le'Vayan Satanism,The Church of Euthanasia' figures into the topic?

also you 'rejecting' as in failure to accept or acknowledge something, seems more like a personal issue rather than a lucid, coherent argument...

are we all about feelings here? because my feelings are for a bagel and cream cheese and some lemony tea...

I don't see how anyone can take a topic quite expansive and reduce it to their feelings? If anyone wishes to gauge an argument, it should be borne of some study..

this is almost as wasteful as being bombarded by one of those christian fundie or dawkin sites.. the majority exhibit excessive logorrhea from which the rest are left shrugging their shoulders and walking away..

[جوري]

let's liken religion to this question I pose since the question of correctness and why narrow it down is something in common-- I do expect an answer with a why..
a 34 year old man comes to the physician because of dizziness, right sided tinnitus, and fluctuating hearing loss, his tinnitus is intermittent .. he is otherwise healthy..

which of the following diagnosis does he walk away with?

1- benign positional vertigo
2- labrynthitis
3-Ménière's disease
4- migraine associated dizziness
5- vestibular schwannoma

[Gubbleknucker]

also you 'rejecting' as in failure to accept or acknowledge something, seems more like a personal issue rather than a lucid, coherent argument...

are we all about feelings here? because my feelings are for a bagel and cream cheese and some lemony tea...

I don't see how anyone can take a topic quite expansive and reduce it to their feelings? If anyone wishes to gauge an argument, it should be borne of some study..

I mean rejection as a conclusion.

The problem with Pascal's wager is that no matter how many threats you make it does not make anything more true, except for the fact that you are threatening me.

If you were to point a gun at my head and ask me to worship you, I would probably comply until I was able to get away. It would not make you any more of a god than my cat is Allah.

[Zafran]

I mean rejection as a conclusion.

The problem with Pascal's wager is that no matter how many threats you make it does not make anything more true, except for the fact that you are threatening me.

If you were to point a gun at my head and ask me to worship you, I would probably comply until I was able to get away. It would not make you any more of a god than my cat is Allah.

Thats preety stupid - Its more like a warning for your own benefit, If you dont heed to the warning you could get into a mess - a warning to help you eg - dont go near the fire - You take the warning and aviod the harm- you dont take the warning then you harm yourself.

[AntiKarateKid]

I mean rejection as a conclusion.

The problem with Pascal's wager is that no matter how many threats you make it does not make anything more true, except for the fact that you are threatening me.

If you were to point a gun at my head and ask me to worship you, I would probably comply until I was able to get away. It would not make you any more of a god than my cat is Allah.

How is Allah pointing a gun at you. Is the educational system pointing a gun at you by saying "Pass your classes or get kicked out"?

You have responsibilities and failure to complete them means a failure to reap their rewards (IE Paradise as opposed to hell).

[Gubbleknucker]

Allah is not pointing a gun at me.

Pascal's wager is, though it is an imaginary gun.

[Sarada]

Let me add my 2 cents worth on the criteria of what I consider to be a religion worth following:

Has One God
who is beyond form and non form
who is beyond male and female and all of the pairs of opposites
who accepts worship in many different kinds of rituals just like a mother/father accepts all the gifts their children make for them, no matter how simple or elegant
who does not condone hatred of any sort.
is compassionate and forgiving and who loves all his/her creation

The religion would be non-dogmatic
Would allow and encourage questionning to promote better understanding
Would not prohibit exposure to other philosophies, because it is confidant in the faith of its followers
Does not claim to be the only possessor of the whole Truth, because, as humans we can never understand the Infinite.

This is a partial list.

[Gubbleknucker]

Sarada, that sounds like Pantheism with a collective consciousness.

[Zafran]

Allah is not pointing a gun at me.

Pascal's wager is, though it is an imaginary gun.

??????

[جوري]

I mean rejection as a conclusion.

The problem with Pascal's wager is that no matter how many threats you make it does not make anything more true, except for the fact that you are threatening me.

I think threat sums up all the pedantic beliefs of atheists.. everything comes down to them to threat.. it is unfortunate.
If a doctor tells you, that smoking is estimated to be responsible for approximately 87 percent of cases of lung cancer, including 90 percent of cases in men and 79 percent of cases in women, not to mention a host of things from thromboangiitis obliterans to COPD to emphysema to low birth weight etc etc and all there is in between, and you contend well milton Berele smoked a cigar everyday and he died to be a hundred.

well you can consider yourself to be forwarned, smoking not only ups your odds of death, but can hurt your wallet and decrease the quality of your life.. truth is, if you want to love a decent healthy life it will probably take considerable effort in all sectors, the way you work, play, excercise, cut down on the crap you ingest. But none of those matter because the cigarette box comes with a surgeon general warning which you find threatening.. so you find a host of ways around it, from arguing with folks smoking and living to be a hundred to the lots of money you have to squander, to how cool it makes you look, to your free will to whatever.. and in fact it is true, you have the free will to do as you please, it just doesn't change the fact of the matter!

If you were to point a gun at my head and ask me to worship you, I would probably comply until I was able to get away. It would not make you any more of a god than my cat is Allah.

The first statement was poor enough, but this one I'll have to entrust as your inner child speaking...

bottom line dude.. is, you should enjoy life.. it seems random and short and if there weren't an after life then frankly it is a perfect waste to spend your time arguing your feelings on an Islamic forum?

all the best

[AntiKarateKid]

Allah is not pointing a gun at me.

Pascal's wager is, though it is an imaginary gun.

I lost your point sorry... :-[

[Gubbleknucker]

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

[Zafran]

we know what pascals wager is but who brought it up???

[جوري]

Sarada, that sounds like Pantheism with a collective consciousness.

pantheism is a belief that God is the universe.. given that the universe like everything else has a beginning and an end, it is unlikely that it is god.. since god by definition is the originator.. to expire and perish is to lose validity and said title...

[Gubbleknucker]

pantheism is a belief that God is the universe.. given that the universe like everything else has a beginning and an end, it is unlikely that it is god.. since god by definition is the originator.. to expire and perish is to lose validity and said title...

I did say it required a redefinition of God.

if there weren't an after life then frankly it is a perfect waste to spend your time arguing your feelings on an Islamic forum?

Not if I enjoy it :D

[Zafran]

salaam

if there weren't an after life then frankly it is a perfect waste to spend your time arguing your feelings on an Islamic forum?

well said Gossamer skye Its just weird that atheists dont believe in God/ the after life yet still come on an Islamic forum to discuss about? not very rational.

[Sarada]

Sarada, that sounds like Pantheism with a collective consciousness.

I became a Pantheist at my mother's knee. Hinduism and Pantheism have much in common. Hinduism has become a personal choice, but there are many other options. For me, the Abrahamic religions do not make the grade.

O, and I forgot one other important criteria, NO PROSLETYZING. Did I spell that word right?

[جوري]

I did say it required a redefinition of God.

dictionaries are meant to be concise.. there is no pointing in amending it, any more than there is a point to re-interpret religion to accommodate an angry few.

Not if I enjoy it :D

Vain discourse seems to epitomize the hedonistic doctrine of atheism...
the body doesn't know of futile cycles and neither should the mind..

all the best

[جوري]

proselytizing to that

will probably take alot more than being overtly confident!

[Gubbleknucker]

the body doesn't know of futile cycles and neither should the mind..

Then how do you explain the appendix? My mother almost died when hers burst...
and she seems to function just as well without it.

[Gubbleknucker]

proselytizing to that

will probably take alot more than being overtly confident!

I predict another criteria:
Doesn't insult other beliefs.

[جوري]

Then how do you explain the appendix? My mother almost died when hers burst...
and she seems to function just as well without it.

Appendix has a function, according to Duke University study


Posted Oct 06, 2007 at 06:09PM by Rio S. Listed in: Science Tags: Duke University Ó
30 QJ We have long wondered what the appendix is there for. We may have reached the end of the debate as a group of immunologists and surgeons from the Duke University Medical School think they've found the appendix' function.

Some thought that worm-like tube (located just where the the large and small intestine meet) had something to do with lymphoid cells while others thought that it became useless through evolution and has no function at all - making the appendix almost synonymous with vestigial. Vestigial organs are those that don't seem to have a function, like the tonsils for example, though many vestigial organs have been struck off the list as we find out that they *do* have functions.

The study from the Duke University Medical School produced a theory: the appendix "acts as a good safe house for bacteria." According to surgery professor and study co-author Bill Parker, the appendix' location in the digestive system supports the theory and it actually acts as a factory for good bacteria.

Imagine this, you get cholera or amoebic dysentery, all the useful bacteria dies off as a result. Then what? You need to get some good bacteria back. In modern society, you can pick those up from other people but imagine what it would have been like in the past when the entire region gets infected and the population wasn't so dense? According to the study, that's when the appendix kicks in; it "reboots" the digestive system's good germs.

Inflamed appendices should still be removed, according to Parker, since they can turn deadly once they pop. Makes one wonder though, are there any other differences between those who had their appendix removed and those who still have theirs? Because if there are any more, this writer's in trouble.

[جوري]

I predict another criteria:
Doesn't insult other beliefs.

How can I be insulting when that is a major divinity in the later Hindu pantheon?

[Sarada]

I predict another criteria:
Doesn't insult other beliefs.

Absolutely, that is a definite criteria, DOES NOT INSULT OTHER BELIEFS,

[Sarada]

proselytizing to that

will probably take alot more than being overtly confident!

Well chosen picture! A representation of God destroying the demon Ignorance!

[جوري]

Well chosen picture! A representation of God destroying the demon Ignorance!

I thought you'd be pleased.. I found that Hindus don't like this:

as much as the former..

all the best

[Zafran]

Dont the Brahamins reject the idea of images of God?

[Sarada]

Dont the Brahamins reject the idea of images of God?

No. You may worship God any form or in His/Her formless aspect.

Generally Vedantins worship God as formless by choice.

The Arya Samaj, however, maintains that God is formless.

[Zafran]

No. You may worship God any form or in His/Her formless aspect.

Generally Vedantins worship God as formless by choice.

The Arya Samaj, however, maintains that God is formless.

Hindus also have a the class system where some people pray with forms whilst the the higher classes dont? Is that true?

If God is formless why do people worship the images?

[Sarada]

I thought you'd be pleased.. I found that Hindus don't like this:

as much as the former..

all the best

What a beautiful picture of my Sri Ganesh-ji. The Remover of All Obstacles, and the one who wrote down the Mahabharata, who contains the sorrows of the Universe in his belly.

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/ganesha/

[Sarada]

Hindus also have a the class system where some people pray with forms whilst the the higher classes dont? Is that true?

If God is formless why do people worship the images?

The caste system as it is practiced in India is abhorrent. It is, however, not based on religion but it is a cultural construct.

Whether you pray using a statue or a picture, or pray to God in His/Her formless aspect, depends on your level of spiritual development, and perhaps your mood at the time.

We do not worship idols. We use pictures and statues as a means of focusing on God when we pray or meditate. We do not believe that these pictures or statues are God, any more than you would believe that a picture of Barack Obama his the man himself.

[Zafran]

The caste system as it is practiced in India is abhorrent. It is, however, not based on religion but it is a cultural construct.

Whether you pray using a statue or a picture, or pray to God in His/Her formal aspect, depends on your level of spiritual development, and perhaps your mood at the time.

We do not worship idols. We use pictures and statues as a means of focusing on God when we pray or meditate. We do not believe that these pictures or statues are God, any more than you would believe that a picture of Barack Obama his the man himself.

right but how do you know these pitcures look like the God? who decides? what are the pitcures based on - are they based on religous scripture? - do they have the descriptions?

isnt the caste system in the Vedas - that the humans were made from different parts of the body? lowest from the feet?

[جوري]

What a beautiful picture of my Sri Ganesh-ji. The Remover of All Obstacles, and the one who wrote down the Mahabharata, who contains the sorrows of the Universe in his belly.

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/ganesha/

I am glad that posting pictures of your gods doesn't offend you as you so had us believing by your earlier posts...

all the best

[//-Asif-\\]

The caste system as it is practiced in India is abhorrent. It is, however, not based on religion but it is a cultural construct.

Whether you pray using a statue or a picture, or pray to God in His/Her formless aspect, depends on your level of spiritual development, and perhaps your mood at the time.

We do not worship idols. We use pictures and statues as a means of focusing on God when we pray or meditate. We do not believe that these pictures or statues are God, any more than you would believe that a picture of Barack Obama his the man himself.

A means of focusing on God? So you could use absolutely anything as a means to focus on God, anything from a piece of chalk to a Michael Jackson poster. Is this due to lack of imagination or for those that just have the craving desire for a visual aid?

Even though anything can be used as a visual aid it's still does not qualify as idol worshipping when a man-made statue with flutes, heads of animals, multiple arms, red lipstick and such is used for rituals and bowing? Odd.

[Sarada]

right but how do you know these pitcures look like the God? who decides? what are the pitcures based on - are they based on religous scripture? - do they have the descriptions?

isnt the caste system in the Vedas - that the humans were made from different parts of the body? lowest from the feet?

Yes there are descriptions of the various forms of God in the many different scriptures that are part of Hinduism

The Vedas describe four VARNAS which are based on a person's capabilities and occupation and are not hereditary.

Brahmin, spiritual leader, teacher
Kshatriya, soldier, police, those who protect society
Vaishya, merchants, farmers, craftsmen, etc.
Shudra, servants

[Sarada]

A means of focusing on God? So you could use absolutely anything as a means to focus on God, anything from a piece of chalk to a Michael Jackson poster. Is this due to lack of imagination or for those that just have the craving desire for a visual aid?

Even though anything can be used as a visual aid it's still does not qualify as idol worshipping when a man-made statue with flutes, heads of animals, multiple arms, red lipstick and such is used for rituals and bowing? Odd.

Don't be silly.

[Zafran]

Yes there are descriptions of the various forms of God in the many different scriptures that are part of Hinduism

The Vedas describe four VARNAS which are based on a person's capabilities and occupation and are not hereditary.

Brahmin, spiritual leader, teacher
Kshatriya, soldier, police, those who protect society
Vaishya, merchants, farmers, craftsmen, etc.
Shudra, servants

Isnt the shudra made out of the feet - which is the lowest occupaton? and the Brahmin from the top - which is the higher occupation? does this make the leader better then the servant?

[جوري]

silly that he finds it odd? but not silly that a recently beheaded kid whose mother wanted to replace his decapitated head that her lover did away with earlier couldn't find any other head save for that of an elephant, and then magically he is potbellied god?


Just so when you make an effort to proselytize you'd know that you've quite the challenge ahead :smile:

all the best

[Sarada]

I am glad that posting pictures of your gods doesn't offend you as you so had us believing by your earlier posts...

all the best

When I said no insulting other relgions in a previous post, I was speaking in general terms. I was not referring to your link to a picture of Lord Shiva.

How can I be offended by true facts about my religion?

I can only be offended by half-truths, innuendos.

Even silly, off the wall statements cannot offend me. Such as the ones by Asif. (because even he does not really believe what he wrote)

Perhaps I shall go off now and meditate on my lipstick ... now, what shade shall I choose? Ha Ha Ha

[Ali_008]

:sl:

I missed a great share of this debate but Alhamduillah was able to catch up now. The latest two criteria in discussion have been proselytizing and not insulting others' beliefs. Well, GubbleKnucker and Sarada, Islam passes in both these tests as well, Alhamdulillah.

It is very clearly mentioned in the Quran in Surah 6 i.e. Surah Anam, verse 108

Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance.

So, you see insulting others' God(s) is against the Qur'an.

Islam encourages spreading the truth. A Muslim is allowed only to do Daw'ah and not to force anyone to do something. I can take you to the pond and even make your head bend close to the water but its you who ultimately has to let the water flow down your throat. In the Qur'an in Surah Baqarah, verse 256, it is mentioned

PICKTHAL There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.


And coming to proselytizing, Islam talks about loving your Brothers and Sisters in both Islam and humanity. I'd like to ask you a question. If you see that someone close to you is getting ready to jump off a cliff and kill himself, would you not stop that beloved of yours? Would you not want to save him from destruction? Would you not like to see him as happy as you? The answer to all of them would be that yes, you'd save that person. And if you're good enough then you would even save a stranger from committing suicide and so when you see people going headlong into destruction, it becomes the duty of a good Human to help them. How would you treat a person who hoards up every good thing he can and doesn't even care to give a little (if not much) of his provision to those that don't have it and rather have some hazardous feed for themselves.

People say that Islam spread through the sword but even today (i.e. July 8th, 2009) it is the fastest growing religion in the World. Since 1400 years this has been the case. I ask you, which sword is forcing the people today to realise the truth. Rather the Muslims are undergoing persecution in almost every pocket of the World.

I'm sorry but I think your criterion of proselytizing doesn't even fit for a good and true human let alone the perfect belief.

[Zafran]

also.....

Yes there are descriptions of the various forms of God in the many different scriptures that are part of Hinduism

isnt God formless? so where did the descriptions come from?

The Arya Samaj, however, maintains that God is formless

[جوري]

When I said no insulting other relgions in a previous post, I was speaking in general terms. I was not referring to your link to a picture of Lord Shiva.

I see, just generalizing for the reader to decipher what he may?

How can I be offended by true facts about my religion?

That is what I thought too..

I can only be offended by half-truths, innuendos.

if the half truth starts with an elephant god, I am not sure how much better looking the full truth will be?

Even silly, off the wall statements cannot offend me. Such as the ones by Asif. (because even he does not really believe what he wrote)

I didn't think his statement was silly at all, and I say that with full impartiality!

Perhaps I shall go off now and meditate on my lipstick ... now, what shade shall I choose? Ha Ha Ha

chanel's Aqualumiere is pretty impressive I hear!

all the best

[جوري]

:sl:



Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance.

.

:sl:

Indeed.. sadaqa Allah al3atheem..however, I didn't think it was merited to bring up the noble Quran on the matter given the choices we had here.. people with their minds already made up of a whole host of things from 'vestigial' appendices to the dogmatic Islam..
I don't like to Quote the Quran in foolish discourse. Nonetheless, these are actual facts and not a revilement as professed by the other point of view..

:w:

[Sarada]

silly that he finds it odd? but not silly that a recently beheaded kid whose mother wanted to replace his decapitated head that her lover did away with earlier couldn't find any other head save for that of an elephant, and then magically he is potbellied god?


Just so when you make an effort to proselytize you'd know that you've quite the challenge ahead :smile:

all the best

I do not intend to proselytize. I am not on this forum to promote my religion. I am here to learn about the mind set and points of view of Muslims, and to share my knowledge of my religion when asked.

Yes, you have some knowledge of the mythology, but you do not understand the symbolism. Let me correct you on some of the details. Parvati fashioned Ganesh from the sloughed off skin of her body, and asked him to stand guard and not let anyone disturb her while she was having her bath. When her HUSBAND, Lord Shiva came home and wanted to see her, Ganesh tried to prevent him, and Shiva cut off his head.

None of this is to be taken literally. It is all symbolic.

Most of the Muslims on this forum do not have the mind set required to become Hindus. Their brains are just not wired that way.

I agree with Gandhi who once said, "If you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu, if you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim, if you are a Christian, then be a good Christian"


In my view, there are different belief systems to accommodate different types of people. but in the end no matter how we worship, we worship the same God, for there can be only one God.

[barrio79]

Appendix has a function, according to Duke University study

Duke University was thought to be founded by the Quakers, now that might not be " The True Religion " but is probably the purest of religions

[جوري]

Appendix has a function, according to Duke University study

Duke University was thought to be founded by the Quakers, now that might not be " The True Religion " but is probably the purest of religions

Do you have something of science to rebut the article that is peer reviewed? or just fond of logical fallacies that run the gamut?

[Sarada]

Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance..

I would never and have never reviled Allah. There are many things I don't understand about Islam, and many things that I may not agree with, but, name me one time when I have reviled Allah.

The same cannot be said for some people on this forum, who choose to twist ,my words and use them against me, reviling the forms of God that I worship in their limited understanding.

According to your beliefs, I might be going to hell, but

that is my risk. My beliefs include the principle of Ahimsa or non-violence.

Therefore, my personal beliefs could not harm you in any way.

[جوري]

Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance..

I would never and have never reviled Allah. There are many things I don't understand about Islam, and many things that I may not agree with, but, name me one time when I have reviled Allah.

The same cannot be said for some people on this forum, who choose to twist ,my words and use them against me, reviling the forms of God that I worship in their limited understanding.

According to your beliefs, I might be going to hell and eternal ****ation, but

that is my risk. My beliefs include the principle of Ahimsa or non-violence.

Therefore, my personal beliefs could not harm you in any way.

I never meant you mental upset or hurt if that is what you are suggesting!

peace

[Sarada]

I never meant you mental upset or hurt if that is what you are suggesting!

peace

I am not suggesting that you upset me,

I am just reminding people that I try to be respectful of others at all times. Perhaps, sometimes I have failed. If I have then please forgive me, as it was unintentional.

[Ali_008]

:sl:

Indeed.. sadaqa Allah al3atheem..however, I didn't think it was merited to bring up the noble Quran on the matter given the choices we had here.. people with their minds already made up of a whole host of things from 'vestigial' appendices to the dogmatic Islam..
I don't like to Quote the Quran in foolish discourse. Nonetheless, these are actual facts and not a revilement as professed by the other point of view..

:w:

:w:
I think its best to use your best weapon in a battle and we actually have the advantage of having one so why not use it.

Surah Nahl, verse 125

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

[جوري]

I am not suggesting that you upset me,

I am just reminding people that I try to be respectful of others at all times. Perhaps, sometimes I have failed. If I have then please forgive me, as it was unintentional.

Like wise if I have upset you.. my humble apologies..

peace

[جوري]

:w:
I think its best to use your best weapon in a battle and we actually have the advantage of having one so why not use it.

Surah Nahl, verse 125

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

Jazaka Allah khyran

:w:

[Ali_008]

Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance..

I would never and have never reviled Allah. There are many things I don't understand about Islam, and many things that I may not agree with, but, name me one time when I have reviled Allah.

The same cannot be said for some people on this forum, who choose to twist ,my words and use them against me, reviling the forms of God that I worship in their limited understanding.

According to your beliefs, I might be going to hell, but

that is my risk. My beliefs include the principle of Ahimsa or non-violence.

Therefore, my personal beliefs could not harm you in any way.

:sl:
You can have all your clarifications here, just tell us where you're lost and we'll get you out of there. I see Hindus everyday and I'm quite well versed with the Ramayana and the Mahabharata and I don't insult your Gods either but just like any Muslim, I can't accept the fact that they are worth worshipping but on the other hand you know that God is one and even you worship him and can't take the "risk" of reviling him.

Let me bring a point of commonality between Islam and Sanatan Dharma (i.e. Hinduism). Allah has been mentioned by 99 attributes and names in the Glorious Qur'an and one of them is Al-Khaliq, the Creator. And the Creator in Sanskrit is called Brahma. I have no problem if you refer to God by the name of Brahma but if you tell me that Brahma has some number of hands, he has a beard, a crown on his head, a wheel spinning in one of his fingers etc then I disagree with you because here you're attributing human form to Allah which is against the Qur'an. Surah 112, Al - Ikhlaas, verse 4 says:

And there is none like unto Him.

[Sarada]

:sl:
You can have all your clarifications here, just tell us where you're lost and we'll get you out of there. I see Hindus everyday and I'm quite well versed with the Ramayana and the Mahabharata and I don't insult your Gods either but just like any Muslim, I can't accept the fact that they are worth worshipping but on the other hand you know that God is one and even you worship him and can't take the "risk" of reviling him.

Let me bring a point of commonality between Islam and Sanatan Dharma (i.e. Hinduism). Allah has been mentioned by 99 attributes and names in the Glorious Qur'an and one of them is Al-Khaliq, the Creator. And the Creator in Sanskrit is called Brahma. I have no problem if you refer to God by the name of Brahma but if you tell me that Brahma has some number of hands, he has a beard, a crown on his head, a wheel spinning in one of his fingers etc then I disagree with you because here you're attributing human form to Allah which is against the Qur'an. Surah 112, Al - Ikhlaas, verse 4 says:

And there is none like unto Him.

1. I do not revile God/Allah/Brahman/Ishwar/Gitchimanitou because of any perceived "risk", but because He/She is sacred.

2. I do not ask you to agree with me, or to look at the images or accept them. But I do ask that they not be mocked, because they are sacred to me.

And, if I am asked about them I must describe them honestly. Further, no self-respecting educated Hindu actually believes that these fantastic beings exist(ed) it is all symbolic.

3. This is forum on comparative religions, a place for I hope, friendly and respectful discussions. If I wish to be converted, I will post on one of the fora on Islam.

[barrio79]

Do you have something of science to rebut the article that is peer reviewed? or just fond of logical fallacies that run the gamut?

Thanks, for the info I did not realise that Quakerism was a logical fallacy , now I do.

[جوري]

Thanks, for the info I did not realise that Quakerism was a logical fallacy , now I do.

perhaps therein lies the problem indeed-- though, I am to blame for starters I should left the word logic out when it comes to you!
you clearly bolded the 'appendix has a function' followed by duke's foundation by Quakers..
the questions still stands.. do you have a peer reviewed paper to rebut the research that came out of Duke (one of the top ten academic institutions in the U.S) as pertains to the appendix? or simply desire to waste ten more pages on ad homs and red Herrings?

[Pygoscelis]

salaam

well said Gossamer skye Its just weird that atheists dont believe in God/ the after life yet still come on an Islamic forum to discuss about? not very rational.

Oh no? If you lived in a land where most of those around you believed in faeries and wanted to build society around the will of the faeries would you not want to learn about faerie belief and would you not possibly try to reason with fairie believers?

[barrio79]

perhaps therein lies the problem indeed-- though, I am to blame for starters I should left the word logic out when it comes to you!
you clearly bolded the 'appendix has a function' followed by duke's foundation by Quakers..
the questions still stands.. do you have a peer reviewed paper to rebut the research that came out of Duke (one of the top ten academic institutions in the U.S) as pertains to the appendix? or simply desire to waste ten more pages on ad homs and red Herrings?

you have confused me ( again ) goss. Could some one translate the above into southern hemisphere english jargon

[aamirsaab]

you have confused me ( again ) goss. Could some one translate the above into southern hemisphere english jargon

Your wish is my command; SHAZAAM!

Do you have something of science to rebut the article that is peer reviewed? or just fond of logical fallacies that run the gamut?

[جوري]

Oh no? If you lived in a land where most of those around you believed in faeries and wanted to build society around the will of the faeries would you not want to learn about faerie belief and would you not possibly try to reason with fairie believers?

that would be true indeed, except you live in a temporal society mostly of psychoneurotics and delusionals.. thus it would be more prudent to learn of treatment and better handling the concomitant psychological dysfunction than while away your time worried about the fairy land and its people?

you are still here by choice one assumes, no one is holding a gun to your head?.. the exit is that way >>>>>>>>>>>>

[جوري]

Your wish is my command; SHAZAAM!

are they as dense as they pretend to be? or is it part of the innate doctrine of atheism?

[Muezzin]

Okay, can we stop equating each others' beliefs with fairyland or insanity please? On account of the fact that it has nothing to do with the topic.

Let's discuss the relevant arguments rather than the members making them, or poking fun at their beliefs.

[Gubbleknucker]

Gossamer Skye, first you call Hinduism ridiculous then you call me dense for not accepting a particular book as fact.

As for the three wise monkeys, they are a Japanese proverb and are part of the Kōshin faith.

Let's backtrack to before this whole thing got hostile.

[جوري]

Gossamer Skye, first you call Hinduism ridiculous then you call me dense for not accepting a particular book as fact.

As for the three wise monkeys, they are a Japanese proverb and are part of the Kōshin faith.

Let's backtrack to before this whole thing got hostile.

Go ahead show me where I have called Hinduism 'ridiculous'!

also do you have some sort of persecution complex? not only are you NOT the only atheist on this thread, but accepting a faith or not has nothing to do with being dense.. have you been following every post here? Perhaps the answer to 'denseness' might just follow in the confines of what you have exhibited right here...

Pls don't waste my time on your psychological issues.

all the best

[Gubbleknucker]

Don't make blanket statements then.

What would your reaction be if I said,
"Are Muslims as dense as they pretend to be?"

or if I posted some kind of abstraction of Allah and said, "You're proselytizing to this? Are you nuts?"

or if I said that you must have some kind of mental illness, otherwise you would not call me on this?

Would you like me to do this? I can start now. All you have to do is ask.

[جوري]

Don't make blanket statements then.

I see deflection here rather than an appropriate response to the above!

What would your reaction be if I said,
"Are Muslims as dense as they pretend to be?"

It depends greatly on the sentence prior --
If a Muslim prior stated, 'whipple's disease? oh did you know that research was founded by atheists in an atheist founded institution' -- I'd be inclined to think that the Muslim making such a testimony was either dense or had ailing arguments, that in lieu of addressing the topic, he addresses individuals!

or if I posted some kind of abstraction of Allah and said, "You're proselytizing to this? Are you nuts?"

Again, as per paragraph one, show me where I have called anyone nuts, or ridiculous!

or if I said that you must have some kind of mental illness, otherwise you would not call me on this?

In fact you keep confirming it for the rest of us with each successive post-- but notice please that you are the one admitting to it, rather than having the board point it out!

Would you like me to do this? I can start now. All you have to do is ask.

You're welcome to try indeed, but I have noticed complete lack of skill and focus per regard to any topic.. I really don't believe you are following the dialogue here or simply wish to sieve out articles of interest while ignoring the whole-- thus I doubt you'll be very successful to make good on your 'threats' :rollseyes

all the best

[Zafran]

Oh no? If you lived in a land where most of those around you believed in faeries and wanted to build society around the will of the faeries would you not want to learn about faerie belief and would you not possibly try to reason with fairie believers?

Its one thing learning about the religion - another thing coming here and "debating" about something you believe does not exist - time wasting - not very rational - its like me going to a atheist or christain forum when i dont believe in anything they believe.

The best way to learn is not on forums - its talking to the people in your society - if your worried about society - forums are the last place to look.

Most importantly the best way to learn about people and society is actually talking to them.......in real and not at forums. Taking a trip out in "the land" may also help far more.

Forums are great if you have questions - thats preety much it - the rest has little bearing on society and how people actually live there real lives.

[Uthman]

All off-topic replies and posts containing personal attacks have been deleted. Let us now return to the topic at hand. Future violation of the forum rules will be dealt with strictly, regardless of who they come from.

[Gubbleknucker]

The best way to learn is not on forums - its talking to the people in your society - if your worried about society - forums are the last place to look.

It's all just various Christian denominations where I live. The only way I can talk to Muslims is online.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

There is only One God, we are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers despite all our differences. We just have to acknowledge to each other that we are all very special people in the eyes of God, and we should treat each other accordingly.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship

Eric

[Sarada]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

There is only One God, we are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers despite all our differences. We just have to acknowledge to each other that we are all very special people in the eyes of God, and we should treat each other accordingly.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship

Eric

Amen, Amen, Aaamen!

Tat sat, tat sat, tat sat!

(That is the truth, that is the truth, that is the truth)

[thetruth2009]

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers,


The right religion its write in the Quran :

3:95] Say, "GOD has proclaimed the truth: You shall follow Abraham's religion - monotheism. He never was an idolater."


Assalam aleykoum, forgive us god and guide us Amine, Amen?

[HinduIconoclast]

Sarada - You say that there is only one God but I would like to know if you believe in a monotheistic God like in Islam or a monistic Brahman/Parmatman like in Hinduism?

[Clover]

I am a Taoist and Shintoist. They are good enough for me, even if I am going to burn in hell, at least I have honor for my ancestors when I go.

[thetruth2009]

I am a Taoist and Shintoist. They are good enough for me, even if I am going to burn in hell, at least I have honor for my ancestors when I go.

.

Assalam aleykoum my brother in Humanity,

I respect you choice, when I saw your reply I had a verse of the quran in my mind .

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Sourate 2


170. When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah ( GOD ) hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?


With all repect due to you brother and your ancestors, you have to save yourself.

I am not telling you to folow me, never only god can guide you

God can guide you if you ask him to show you the truth.

My brother in humanity, religion its not a game, its about our eternity in paradise insha'allah together .

Its not because I am muslim I will go to paradise, I hope , I pray god for it and for all Human.

We will go to paradise only with divine mercy, I ask god to forgive us all my brother and to guide us to the truth.

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers in religion and my brother in humanity.


PS : We have to ask god evry day to guide us to the truth, Ameen.

[Clover]

Honestly, I don't know whether to take offense at that quote or not. My forefathers did what was best for the family, way more then anyone or anything else has, and I would destroy anyone who insulted them for doing what they did to save their children.

With all due respect, I have saved myself many times, and this is not one of them I see that I have too. If Allah is real, then he can come to me and tell me the Kami are false, but until that day, I will not give up my beliefs for something I don't believe in.

[thetruth2009]

Hi brother in humanity Clover,

The things you said was already in Quran, the Quran is not a simple book, but god wrote all the way of thinking of Human.

Look the sourate bellow its the same thing you said above :

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


Sourate 6

148. Those who give partners (to Allah. will say: "If Allah had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." So did their ancestors argue falsely, until they tasted of Our wrath. Say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? If so, produce it before us. Ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie."

Do you knwo I repect you and all Human in general, but we have to look for to the truth, the right path.

Do you know as I told you before, the religion its not a game, we have to work together to try to find out what is true and what is not, what is logic or not.


You have nothing to lose if you ask god to guide you do it every night and every day , you will be surprised trust me, god will reply to you do not worry.

But you have to ask sincerly deeply inside you, if you do not do it that can not works.


I ask god to guide us and forgive us my brother in humanity.


PS : everybody forget the power and the presence of everyday life of the DEVIL, he is working every day, evry hour, evry minuts, every segonds ( Keep it in mind all your life )

[Clover]

Hi brother in humanity Clover,

The things you said was already in Quran, the Quran is not a simple book, but god wrote all the way of thinking of Human.

Look the sourate bellow its the same thing you said above :

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


Sourate 6

148. Those who give partners (to Allah. will say: "If Allah had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." So did their ancestors argue falsely, until they tasted of Our wrath. Say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? If so, produce it before us. Ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie."

Do you knwo I repect you and all Human in general, but we have to look for to the truth, the right path.

Do you know as I told you before, the religion its not a game, we have to work together to try to find out what is true and what is not, what is logic or not.


You have nothing to lose if you ask god to guide you do it every night and every day , you will be surprised trust me, god will reply to you do not worry.

But you have to ask sincerly deeply inside you, if you do not do it that can not works.


I ask god to guide us and forgive us my brother in humanity.


PS : everybody forget the power and the presence of everyday life of the DEVIL, he is working every day, evry hour, evry minuts, every segonds ( Keep it in mind all your life )

I do not care if its in the Quran or not. You can believe it was a gift from God, but don't tell me what I should and should not do based on your beliefs.

[celina]

I am a Taoist and Shintoist. They are good enough for me, even if I am going to burn in hell, at least I have honor for my ancestors when I go.

What is a TAOIST and Shintoist?

[Clover]

What is a TAOIST and Shintoist?

Google.

[celina]

How unpleasant and ignorant of you Clover you could have just told me wouldn's have done you harm, anyway my question was to the muslim brother thetruth2009 not you.

[Clover]

How unpleasant and ignorant of you Clover you could have just told me wouldn's have done you harm, anyway my question was to the muslim brother thetruth2009 not you.

Haha, ignorant? You obviously don't know the definition then, how ignorant of you :nervous:

I do not feel like telling someone about my RA, when they don't have the time to go to google and type in the words "Taoist, and Shintoist" or better "Taoism and Shinto". Sorry.

Then address it to him Madam, don't say it and then not expect just anyone to address it.

Spank You, and Have a Nice Day :).

[thetruth2009]

Hi Clover,


Its not the way you have to act with people ans specially with the sister Celina.

I do not know what is wrong with you , she just asked you to explain What is a TAOIST and Shintoist, she is curious and wants to know ?

Is it what did you learn to have such behabiour, why are you agressive.

You are you always on defensive ?

Do you know the sister prefered to ask you , its better to have a reply from a Human than typing on google, can you imagine a world without exchanging ? to know from each other ?

I ask god to guide us and forgive us.

[celina]

Hi Clover,


Its not the way you have to act with people ans specially with the sister Celina.

I do not know what is wrong with you , she just asked you to explain What is a TAOIST and Shintoist, she is curious and wants to know ?

Is it what did you learn to have such behabiour, why are you agressive.

You are you always on defensive ?

Do you know the sister prefered to ask you , its better to have a reply from a Human than typing on google, can you imagine a world without exchanging ? to know from each other ?

I ask god to guide us and forgive us.

Thankyou brother I am so glad mashAllah that there are muslim brothers like you may Allah make you stronger and give you success.. ameen.

[Lost&Found]

Celina went off topic when she asked what is Taoism. Clover made a thread about his beliefs, and she could of easily used the search feature.

[Clover]

Hi Clover,


Its not the way you have to act with people ans specially with the sister Celina.

I do not know what is wrong with you , she just asked you to explain What is a TAOIST and Shintoist, she is curious and wants to know ?

Is it what did you learn to have such behabiour, why are you agressive.

You are you always on defensive ?

Do you know the sister prefered to ask you , its better to have a reply from a Human than typing on google, can you imagine a world without exchanging ? to know from each other ?

I ask god to guide us and forgive us.

I am not aggressive, if I was, I would have gone off on her. I was simply telling her a search engine that is very popular to use. I am not going to tell her in full definition what both of them are, cause it would take me a long long time.

I am honestly having a hard time understanding your English, but I will try to respond through it with what I perceive your asking.

I am going to rephrase your questions, tell me if they are right:

What did I do to learn this behavior? I just got this new behavior, cause I realized being proper means nothing to humanity.

Why am I defensive? Well you just asked why am I aggressive, which question are you asking? Cause their is a difference between the two, in-fact their opposites.

Yes, it would be a non-forum world. Google has better definitions for exact Taoism and Shinto beliefs. If she asked me, I would give her my beliefs, which might not fit with a Shintoist from China, cause I was not raised like them.

[celina]

Celina went off topic when she asked what is Taoism. Clover made a thread about his beliefs, and she could of easily used the search feature.

What would be the harm if clover just told me the meaning he was ignorant and I wasn't expecting that kind of behaviour. If someone asked me what a muslim is I would be kind and give a nice explanation about it not throw a fit.:raging:

[thetruth2009]

I do not care if its in the Quran or not. You can believe it was a gift from God, but don't tell me what I should and should not do based on your beliefs.

Hi my brother in humanity Clover,

Do you know its not about my belief, its like I told you before I will never ask you to follow me, never ever.

Only god can guide us, do you think because I pray god , he is pleased or not , I do not know.

I have done nothing in my life for god, we are very weak, we spend our day life by doing nothing.

Can you imagine how many things god gave us, we can pray all our life, we will never pay it back.

What I want to say, its we have to fight together against our devil, after around us, every one have to try to clean his area, we have to respect each other, no difference of colour and beliefs.

We have to respect each other, big, black, hadsome, ugly, we are all Adam's children.

But what we live nowdays its different, maybe I am dreaming to much.:statisfie

What I want to say, now , we have time to think about god, to think about our destiny, to think how I can make god happy, pleased.

Maybe I can go to see my old friends I have not seen for many years, or I can call him, I have to call my cousin, or brothets or sisters, visit sick people, help poor people.

By doing all this god will show us many things by acting like that and can guide us and can be pleased.

I stop it here, I have many things to say, I hope clover and sisters and brothers you understand me.

Think about it Clover, you need nobody to tell you what you have to do , just adices to all of us, its good to have advice after the ball is in our court.

I ask god to guide us and forgive us.

[Clover]

Hi my brother in humanity Clover,

Do you know its not about my belief, its like I told you before I will never ask you to follow me, never ever.

Only god can guide us, do you think because I pray god , he is pleased or not , I do not know.

I have done nothing in my life for god, we are very weak, we spend our day life by doing nothing.

Can you imagine how many things god gave us, we can pray all our life, we will never pay it back.

What I want to say, its we have to fight together against our devil, after around us, every one have to try to clean his area, we have to respect each other, no difference of colour and beliefs.

We have to respect each other, big, black, hadsome, ugly, we are all Adam's children.

But what we live nowdays its different, maybe I am dreaming to much.:statisfie

What I want to say, now , we have time to think about god, to think about our destiny, to think how I can make god happy, pleased.

Maybe I can go to see my old friends I have not seen for many years, or I can call him, I have to call my cousin, or brothets or sisters, visit sick people, help poor people.

By doing all this god will show us many things by acting like that and can guide us and can be pleased.

I stop it here, I have many things to say, I hope clover and sisters and brothers you understand me.

Think about it Clover, you need nobody to tell you what you have to do , just adices to all of us, its good to have advice after the ball is in our court.

I ask god to guide us and forgive us.

I have someone to guide me. My ancestors and my family that is living.

[Clover]

What would be the harm if clover just told me the meaning he was ignorant and I wasn't expecting that kind of behaviour. If someone asked me what a muslim is I would be kind and give a nice explanation about it not throw a fit.:raging:

haha, madam until you prove I was being ignorant, your being ignorant of vocabulary :). Throw a fit? If I had thrown a fit, you would know it, I assure you. Besides, if I told you the meaning you would probably tell me it was my own opinion, which would be true, so why waste my time?

[Lost&Found]

What would be the harm if clover just told me the meaning he was ignorant and I wasn't expecting that kind of behaviour. If someone asked me what a muslim is I would be kind and give a nice explanation about it not throw a fit.:raging:

There is no harm. You just went completly off topic. Clover's explanation of his beliefs: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...oism-what.html

[Clover]

There is no harm. You just went completly off topic. Clover's explanation of his beliefs: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...oism-what.html

To be honest, that topic is dead. If she wants to discuss my beliefs, she can pm me, but I doubt she will do that since I was just oh so rude to her :p

[Uthman]

This is all very fascinating, but this thread is about the "true religion".

Let's discuss that or I'll...throw a fit.

[Clover]

This is all very fascinating, but this thread is about the "true religion".

Let's discuss that or I'll...throw a fit.

I agree, sorry for going off topic with others.

Don't do it! Mods when they throw fits is never pretty.

[celina]

This is all very fascinating, but this thread is about the "true religion".

Let's discuss that or I'll...throw a fit.

I only asked him about his faith, have I commit a major crime? Being compassionate and understanding isn't that also part of 'true religion

[Clover]

Madam, I advise you take this to pm's with me.

[index123]

why do atheists troll alot? first of all I would look for
the one the most people follow, I would look and see if it has any scientific, out of
the ordinary feats to it. Such as true prophecies. Then I would look at the testimonies of the people who left that religion, if there full of irrational hate then I would say ok.. there is a high probability that this one is true.