The Qur'an never altered?

[math]

Often I hear Muslims saying that it is impossible to alter the text of the Qur'an. This unlike, for example, the Bible. It is even claimed (or perhaps Qur'an itself mentions this, I am not sure) that the Qur'an is such a perfect work, that if one reads the Qur'an, it is clear that this is a 'perfect work', and that any alteration would spoil the harmony. If I am paraphrasing incorrectly, please correct me.

I wonder how people who have read the Qur'an see this. Do you believe in this, because the wise men who have studied the Qur'an have asserted this? Or do you believe this because you have seen the beauty and harmony of the holy book yourselves? Do you think you would be able to notice when you would read a version of the book that has some slight modifications? Unfortunately I do not speak Arabic (yet), so I cannot read the original text and find out for myself.

I hope I am permitted me to ask this question here as a non-believer. I would sincerely like to thank anyone who takes the time to answer!

[maryam87]

There is over 1 billion muslims in the world im sure if there were any changes the news will be spreading fast like crazy. Personally i believe in the words of Allah(swt) so i know it can never be changed. You might notice some translations to be different however the original is still intact as it will always be.

I see the beauty and harmony of the holy book by reading one verse only so you really dont need to finish the whole book to see its beauty

[AntiKarateKid]

Often I hear Muslims saying that it is impossible to alter the text of the Qur'an. This unlike, for example, the Bible. It is even claimed (or perhaps Qur'an itself mentions this, I am not sure) that the Qur'an is such a perfect work, that if one reads the Qur'an, it is clear that this is a 'perfect work', and that any alteration would spoil the harmony. If I am paraphrasing incorrectly, please correct me.

I wonder how people who have read the Qur'an see this. Do you believe in this, because the wise men who have studied the Qur'an have asserted this? Or do you believe this because you have seen the beauty and harmony of the holy book yourselves? Do you think you would be able to notice when you would read a version of the book that has some slight modifications? Unfortunately I do not speak Arabic (yet), so I cannot read the original text and find out for myself.

I hope I am permitted me to ask this question here as a non-believer. I would sincerely like to thank anyone who takes the time to answer!

Question on my friend. What we have in our hands right now is the exact same Quran, word by word, letter by letter, as when it was revealed.

There are copies dating back to just a few years after the Prophet's death, compiled by his closest companions and unanimously agreed upon by every single one of the first Muslims. These have been confirmed to be authentic by scholars and radio-carbon dating.

Moreover, the Quran, with it's rhythm and melody, is completely memorizable and people were memorizing it as the Prophet recited to them the Revelation. So if there were inconsistencies in the script, the thousands and thousands of Muslms who had memorized the Quran would have found it.

These were jsut some of the checks and balances put in place. Indeed, in order to eradicate Islam from the world a person would have to kill every single Muslim alive since each one knows at least a chapter or two by heart.

This site should be helpful to you. Unlike other scriptures, the Quran is unique in it's purity and has no shadowy history like the Bible.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

[math]

Sure. Don't worry, I have no plans in altering the Qur'an or killing all Muslims ;).

But my question was rather directed at the personal experience of reading the Qur'an, while you are mentioning external (historical) reasons. Is it sufficient for you to read the Qur'an to see its perfectness? Can you perceive that it couldn't have been altered by reading the Qur'an alone, without having to know external knowledge like the history of the Qu'ran?

(Just to be clear, I don't see it as criticism on the Qu'ran when the answer would be no. It could for example be that only Qu'ran scholars could perceive its perfectness.)

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[AntiKarateKid]

Sure. Don't worry, I have no plans in altering the Qur'an or killing all Muslims ;).

But my question was rather directed at the personal experience of reading the Qur'an, while you are mentioning external (historical) reasons. Is it sufficient for you to read the Qur'an to see its perfectness? Can you perceive that it couldn't have been altered by reading the Qur'an alone, without having to know external knowledge like the history of the Qu'ran?

(Just to be clear, I don't see it as criticism on the Qu'ran when the answer would be no. It could for example be that only Qu'ran scholars could perceive its perfectness.)

To be honest. Yes. The Quran is composed by Allah in such a way that any change in words would throw off its meaning. I can't read arabic but there are many scholars who can explain to you how each word in the Quran in every sentence is the very best choice to have used there. Nothing else would have made more sense.

Assuming I know Quranic Arabic, given a comparison between a altered Quran and a real one, the real one would always make more sense. Though this is also assuming I am cognizant enough to know. I am sure there are people who would mess it up but when you get down to the nitty gritty, the real one always comes out ontop.

[جوري]

on the preservation of the Quran with original manuscript.. quick read:

this might be helpful.. it is very comprehensive:

The Qur'anic Manuscripts

There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press). There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.
The dig at the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque. The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on Ṣanʿāʾ. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.
The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are more than 40 Qur'anic manuscripts which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. More than 45 manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra.We will be showing only a few examples below.
A few more examples of the 1st and 1st / 2nd century Qur'anic manuscripts can be found in the book Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ (1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah). This book is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Kuwait National Museum, with articles by Hussa Sabah Salim al-Sabah, G. R. Puin, M. Jenkins, U. Dreibholz in both Arabic and English. It is expected that the Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts will throw a great deal of light on the early Islamic history of calligraphy and illumination and even the various ahruf (they were seven) in which the Qur'an was revealed.
A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large maṣāḥif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first maṣāḥif were written. There are also examples of later maṣāḥif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!
As a matter of caution, we stress the fact that we are only showing a single leaf of the manuscripts in the cases below. A manuscript may contain additional sūrahs. The reader is advised to go through the references for additional information.
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The Arabic Papyri | Arabic & Islamic Inscriptions | The Islamic Coins

1. The Qur'anic Script & Palaeography

On The Origins Of The Kufic Script

The Christian missionaries have claimed that the Kufic script originated not earlier than 150 years after hijra. They have argued that it is also the view of both Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi. This article is a devastating refutation of their claims.

The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558, A. Jones, Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.

It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier.

Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur'ānic Manuscripts

Radiocarbon dating of ancient Qur'anic manuscripts in the literature is very rare. Can radiocarbon dating provide more accurate results than traditional palaeographic techniques and associated methods? A discussion of the scientific principles underpinning this radiometric dating technique, together with some practical examples from actual Qur'anic manuscripts, highlights the strengths and weaknesses of this procedure as compared to more traditional palaeographic based methods.

From Alphonse Mingana To Christoph Luxenberg: Arabic Script & The Alleged Syriac Origins Of The Qur'an

A path-breaking discourse or is it yet another headline grabbing exercise? You decide!

Dated Texts Containing The Qur’an From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.

The corpus of dated texts containing the Qur'an from 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE proving the early codification of the Qur'an in Arabic.

2. Examples Of The Qur'anic Manuscripts

THE ʿUTHMĀNIC MANUSCRIPTS

No discussion about the Qur'anic manuscripts begins without the mention of the ʿUthmānic manuscripts of the Qur'an. Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph ʿUthmān, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed to ʿUthmān. However, it is to be added that there is a disagreement between the scholars whether they are truly ʿUthmānic. Some Western scholars have rejected the Qur'anic manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān as "pious forgeries" without showing any scientific evidence (i.e., study of the parchment, script, ink etc.). This itself is unscientific to an extreme. We will discuss some important manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān below.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.

A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

This manuscript was written in Kufic script and contains 408 folios. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an. Only two folios are missing. The manuscript shows the script, illumination and marking of vowels that are from the Umayyad times (i.e., late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra).

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript.

FIRST CENTURY HIJRA

There exist at least four Qur'anic manuscripts that are primarily dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE). These are not the ‘Uthmanic Qur'ans and are parchments written in the ḥijazi script.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ – Inv. No. 01-27.1: Mid-1st Century Of Hijra.

Perhaps the most significant manuscript of the Qur'an palimpsest so far discovered at Ṣanʿāʾ, this codex is datable to the middle of the first century of hijra. The leaves from codex Ṣanʿāʾ inv. 01-27.1 have appeared under the hammer at auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonham's; the most recent one at Christie's in 2008 fetching a remarkable sum of £2,200,000, around fifteen times the estimated asking price. This codex exemplifies the principal tendencies of the early ḥijāzī script and is of tremendous importance regarding the textual transmission of the Qur'an, Arabic palaeography, codicology and other related disciplines. Below is a detailed description of some of the folios from this codex.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah Luqmān And Sūrah al-Sajda.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen. This palimpsest from Ṣan‘a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra. An image acquired using ultraviolet photography is also shown in order to appreciate the improvement of contrast of the washed-off writing. This manuscript may have belonged to the same codex as the one discussed below.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah al-Sajda And Sūrah al-Ahzāb.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen. This manuscript from Ṣan‘a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra by Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer.

Surah al-‘Imran. Verses number : End Of Verse 45 To 54 And Part Of 55.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Shura, Surah al-Zukhruf. Verses number : End Of Verse 49 Of Surah Al-Shura To Verse 31 Of Surah al-Zukhruf And Part Of 32.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Below are the examples of the 1st century hijra manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī and the Kufic scripts.

Arabe 328a: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris.

This is one of the most important manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī script from first century hijra. It has 58 folios; 56 of them at the the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris and one each at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana and the Nasser David Khalili Collection. This manuscript has 58 folios which contains about 28% of the total text of the Qur'an.

Vat. Ar. 1605: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana.

A manuscript from the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana [Vatican Library] written in the ḥijāzī script. This manuscript, one folio in the Nasser David Khalili Collection (Accession No. KFQ 60, published by Déroche) and 56 folios in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris (Arabe 328a) are parts of the same muṣḥaf. They all are dated to first century of hijra.

MS. Or. 2165: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The 1st Century Hijra In The British Library.

Hailed as by the earlier keepers of it as "probably the earliest Qur'an ever brought to Europe", the British Library says that it is the "oldest Qur'an manuscript" in their possession. This manuscript is written in the ḥijāzī (or ma'il) script. It is usually dated around the mid-second century of hijra. However, a recent study by Yasin Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the first century Qur'anic manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. This manuscript has 121 folios which contains about 53% of the total text of the Qur'an.

The “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” From The Time Of Caliph Al-Walīd, Late 1st Century Hijra.

This monumental and the earliest Kufic Qur'anic manuscript, perhaps one of the most well-studied and is dated to the last decade of the 1st century of hijra, around 710 - 715 CE, in the reign of the Umayyad Caliph al-Walīd. This manuscript is unique in the sense that it open with a group of full page images. These images are the only known Qur'an illustrations and are absolutely unique among extant Qur'an manuscripts. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

The ‘Mingana Palimpsest’ – A Manuscript Containing Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.

Mrs. Agnes Smith Lewis was the first scholar to publish this unique palimpsest that has scriptio superior which is a Christian material (Arabic Christian homilies) and the scriptio inferior consisting of the Qur'anic verses. Mingana presented a full transcription of the Qur'anic text of the scriptio inferior of the manuscript, with the parallel text from the present day Qur'an. But his claim of "variants" in the Qur'anic text has come under suspicion partly because of his own history of being involved in suspected forgeries. Recent study by Fedeli on this manuscript has confirmed that the "inevitable and easy conclusion" is that all of Mingana's transcription can be suspected to be wrong. A recent surge of interest in this manuscript is due to the fact that the scriptio inferior was written in the ḥijāzī script.

An ‘Umayyad’ Fragment Of The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.

This private-owned fragment of the Qur'an was recently published by Yasin Dutton. On the basis of palaeography and radiocarbon analysis, he dated it to the second half of the 1st century of hijra / late 7th or early 8th century CE.

Surah al-An‘am. Verses number : Part Of Verse 5 To 19 And Part Of 20.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Nahl. Verses number : End Of Verse 73 To 88 And Part Of 89.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah Maryam & Sūrah Ṭāhā.

This folio has probably been written by two different copyists as the script in the first half is different from the second. It is italic in the first half and regular in the second half of the fragment except for the letter alīf. The ornamentation here is simple. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Qur'anic Manuscript In The Ḥijazi Script From c. 700 CE.

Eight leaves (one fragmentary), 20-27 lines to the page written in brown ḥijāzī script, diacritical marks, where present, consists of oval dots or angled dashes, no vowel points, clusters of brown ink dots to indicate verse divisions, circular devices consisting of green and red dots every ten verses, one long, narrow rectangular panel of green and red decoration with a circular marginal device consisting of coloured dots on final folio, probably to indicate the sūrah heading of Sūrah al-Nisa, leaves sewn together with original stitching. It contains Sūrah āl-‘Imrān, verses 34-184.

A Perg. 2: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.

A manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna, written in the ḥijāzī script.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses 7 Through 12.

A manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain, written in the Kufic script.

P. Michaélidès No. 32 - A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Collection George Michaélidès, Cairo (Egypt) written in the Kufic(?) script.

A Ma‘il Manuscript in Kuwait - A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Tariq Rajab Museum, Kuwait. Written in the ma‘il script [External Link].

FIRST / SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Mixt. 917 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

This manuscript was written in either the late ḥijāzī or kufic script and contains 105 folios. The extant folios contain about 27% of the text of the Qur'an. A rare form of punctuation is also displayed in this manuscript corroborating its eighth century CE dating.

Surah al-Isra' (17) Verses Number: From 20 To 22 And Part Of 23.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Kahf (18) Verses Number: Part Of 17 To 27 And Part Of 28.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Mumtahinah (60) Verses Number: Part Of 4 To 8 And Part Of 9.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses Number: Part Of Verse 94 To Part Of Verse 97.

Manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama (Bahrain), written in the Kufic script.

SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Surah al-Tawba, Surah Yunus: Part Of 129 From Surah Al-Tawba To Part Of 4 From Surah Yunus.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Perg. 203: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 201: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 213: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 186: A Qur'anic Manuscript From Middle Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 202: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 207: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 27: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The End Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in themashq script.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.

This famous manuscript, also known as the Samarqand manuscript, housed in Tashkent, is commonly attributed to Caliph ‘Uthman. A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ‘Uthman's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

One Of The Earliest Dated Qur'anic Manuscript (107 AH / 725 CE) At Egyptian National Library.

An example of one of the earliest dated Qur'anic manuscripts at the Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo (Egypt).

A Kufic Manuscript in the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies - A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript from the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies, Saudi Arabia, written in Kufic script [External Link].

SECOND / THIRD CENTURY HIJRA

Surah Al-Ma'idah, Surah al-An‘am. Part Of 117 (Surah Al-Ma'idah) To Part Of 1 Of Surah Al-An‘am.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Baqarah. Part Of 80 To Part Of 81.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Mursalat. 5 To 26 And Part Of 27.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

SOME UNIQUE MANUSCRIPTS

The Famous "Blue" Qur'an.

EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS

Professor Brannon Wheeler's Qur'an Manuscripts Page

It contains a healthy collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dated from 1st century of hijra onwards till 14th century of hijra in various scripts such as ma'il, kufic, thuluth, bihari, diwani, andalusi, maghribi and nastaliq.

The Schøyen Collection, National Library Of Norway

It has some good collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dating from as early as 2nd century of hijra.

3. The Qira'at In The Qur'anic Manuscripts Early Qur'anic manuscripts, unlike the modern printed editions, rarely contain information of the Qira'at in which they were written. Deciphering the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts is a recent endeavour and a very tedious task. Scholars like Nabia Abbott had only mentioned about Qira'at in the manuscripts in a very cursory way. Recently, in-depth studies have been undertaken to decipher the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts by Dr. Yasin Dutton of University of Edinburgh. He has been looking into various Qur'anic manuscripts to understand the purpose of using various coloured dots in the writing of the Qur'an and studying the consonantal structure (where dotting is nearly absent as in early Qur'ans written in ḥijazi or ma'il script) to find out the Qira'at in which the Qur'an manuscript was written. Here are a few examples of the manuscripts in which the Qira'at has been identified.

The Qira'at Identified In The Qur'anic Manuscripts

We will also mention Dr. Dutton's publications and provide a brief overview. This section is primarily for those who have access to journals in their libraries.

Y. Dutton, "An Early Mushaf According To The Reading Of Ibn ‘Amir", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2001, Volume III (no. I), pp. 71-89.

This study is based on 1st century Qur'anic manuscript "Arabe 328a" in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, written in ḥijazi (or ma'il) script. This manuscript has enough material to be able to ascertain the reading it represents. This manuscript is almost devoid of dotting and hence the consonantal structure is used to determine the Qira'at and it was found to be that of Ibn ‘Amir (d. 118 / 736) - one of the reading later to be declared indisputably mutawatir by Ibn Mujahid (d. 324 / 926). This study is first of its kind on early Qur'anic manuscripts.

Y. Dutton, "Some Notes On The British Library's 'Oldest Qur'an Manuscript' (Or. 2165)", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2004, Volume VI (no. 1), pp. 43-71.

The study by Dr. Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to first century manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and was written in the Qira'at of Ibn ‘Amir. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being the safer.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part I", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 1999, Volume I (no. I), pp. 115-140.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part II", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2000, Volume II (no. I), pp. 1-24.

This two-part detailed study is done on the Qur'anic manuscripts from Bodleian Library (Oxford) that date from 3rd / 4th century of hijra. The broad conclusions of this study are:

1. Variants, including shadhdh variants, are not only marked, but in a sense, highlighted by the use of different coloured dots.
2. The presence of shadhdh variants alongside Seven, Ten or Fourteen Qira'a suggests that the shadhdh variants were treated as seriously as the main readings by those responsible for vocalization.
3. The vocalized manuscript enables us to have some idea of the reading, or readings, represented. Where there are only single or limited folios available this is not usually possible, but where there is either a distinctive feature, or enough of a sufficiently well-vocalized manuscript, it is often possible to fix the reading with some precision.

4. The Qur'anic Manuscripts In Museums, Institutes, Libraries & Collections

Maktabat al-Jami‘ al-Kabir (Maktabat al-Awqaf), The Great Mosque, San‘a', Yemen (See the manuscripts from 1st, 1st/2nd, 2nd and 2nd/3rd century of hijra).

Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo, Egypt.

Astan-i Quds-i Razavi Library, Mashhad, Iran.

Islamic Museum, Jerusalem, Palestine.

Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain (See the manuscripts from 1st and 1st/2nd century of hijra).

The Nasser David Khalili Collection Of Islamic Art, London, United Kingdom.

Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, France.

The Oriental Institute Museum, University of Chicago, Chicago, United States of America.

The Chester Beatty Library, Dublin, Ireland.

The Institute Of Oriental Studies, Russian Academy of Sciences, St. Petersburg, Russia (See the manuscript from 1st/2nd century of hijra).

one of the miracles of the Quran.. aside from its role in everyday life, politcs/economics/social structure/inheritance/ divorce, marriage, guidance/stories of old and things to come etc is the language.. which is completely different than anything encountered that even the best poets couldn't come up with similar and have it compass what it needs, and differs from the hadith which are the sayings of the prophet..
hence i is considered the living miracle..

you can listen to this recitation and notice how every verse ends with the same ending as an example of its poetry..

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[lifeguard]

the simple fact that the entire quran is memorized by kids as young as 5 makes me believe it is the true word of Allah..that's just one of the signs which Allah has shown by saying that He Himself will safeguard the Quran...plus by reading the quran and it's translation confirms it's purity and supreme eloquence apart from any book...that's for me...i dunno abt others

[Zafran]

salaam

The quran is easy to memorize (you just need a lot of time and effort) - All muslims have memorized some parts of the Quran. - Which helps with the preservation. Scholars and hafiz (specific people who memorize the Quran) are all over the world - who pass the Quran on Orally which can be traced back to the prophet - furthermore the Quran also has a rhyme and a rythem which is one of the things which makes the Quran easy to remember.

peace

[BlackMamba]

Ya exactly there are so many millions of huffaz around the world that will know right away if a certain verse has been altered or fabricated. Myself along with at least 10 million others around the world today have alhmadulillah memorized the Quran haraka for haraka. And wthout a doubt a hafiz will know if an ayah has been changed in even the slightest way.

[glo]

Is the Qu'ran written in the order in which Muhammad received the recitations?
Or has the order of the surah been determined in other ways?

[glo]

Is the Qu'ran written in the order in which Muhammad received the recitations?
Or has the order of the surah been determined in other ways?

:bump1:

[جوري]

The question has been answered many times in great details, rather than bumping the thread how about using the search feature? You've been on board for three years, I think it would be easy by now?


all the best

[Uthman]

Hi glo

Is the Qu'ran written in the order in which Muhammad received the recitations?
Or has the order of the surah been determined in other ways?

In his book An Introduction to the sciences of the Qur'an, Yasir Qadhi says the following:

To add to its miraculous nature, the order and arrangement of verses was not done chronologically - rather, the Prophet (peace be upon him) would instruct his Companions of the location of any new verses. The Qur'aan was literally assembled out of the fragmental revelations. It was as if an intricate puzzle was perfectly pieced together during a period of over two decades to form a flawless masterpiece.

Any further questions on this will probably belong in a new thread.

Regards

[glo]

Hi glo In his book An Introduction to the sciences of the Qur'an, Yasir Qadhi says the following:

To add to its miraculous nature, the order and arrangement of verses was not done chronologically - rather, the Prophet (peace be upon him) would instruct his Companions of the location of any new verses. The Qur'aan was literally assembled out of the fragmental revelations. It was as if an intricate puzzle was perfectly pieced together during a period of over two decades to form a flawless masterpiece.

Any further questions on this will probably belong in a new thread.

Regards

Thank you for your informative reply, Uthman.

So the order of the surah was decided by Muhammed alone? (Presumably with God's guidance)
Nothing was changed after his death?

(I think these questions belong pretty squarely into the original thread topic, so I haven't started another thread. If the mods deem it necessary, please do so. Salaam :))

[Ramadhan]

Being an Indonesian, I've re-learned (I learned how to read the Qur'an when I was a child) how to read the Qur'an correctly (tartil with correct tajwid) few months ago. The more I read the Qur'an the more I can FEEL it beauty (remember, I dont know any arabic, so I just read it for a coupe of pages each time, and then after I would read the tafsir in either Bahasa Indonesia or English).

The original poster asked if anyone feel that the Qur'an is perfect without any outside influence, and I would reply with an absolute YES

[Muhaba]

I have read and heard the recitations of the Quraan, (I am also trying to memorize the Quraan - have memorized three parts of the thirty parts) and I am amazed at the beauty and uniqueness. If you listen to the recitations, you too will see the beauty of the Quraan (which is recited without music, yet is more beautiful than any song/music.)

If you don't know arabic yet, you can read the translation; it too is quite beautiful. Here's one website where you can read the translation: http://noblequran.com/translation/index.html

you should start with the last surahs (chapters) first as most of them were revealed first and they are quite small compared to the ones in the beginning of the Quraan.

[Uthman]

So the order of the surah was decided by Muhammed alone? (Presumably with God's guidance)
Nothing was changed after his death?

That's correct!

[gang4]

Often I hear Muslims saying that it is impossible to alter the text of the Qur'an. This unlike, for example, the Bible.

if one has changed "het Wilhelmus" (Dutch national anthem) either the lyrics or the rhythm or both, your neighbor and millions other Dutchman will take a notice immediately and they may care or care less about it.

In extreme condition (military coup etc) "het Wilhemus" can be changed completely with little or no resistance from the people. This can not be applied into Al-Qur'an. Any attempt to change will face resistance in billions.

the Qur'an is such a perfect work, that if one reads the Qur'an, it is clear that this is a 'perfect work'...

if you interested, read www.theinimitablequran.com/ why its challenge remains a challenge after 1400 years...

Al-Qur'an is self-reference; lots of it.
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

The way I understand it, those who is God-conscious finds a sure guidance and doubt-free in it. If one is not then you may or may not find guidance or doubt. In other words, the surety is not guaranteed. It is the perfect way to maintain the free-choice in junction beautifully with 'No compulsion in religion'.

Often, when one reads the Qur'an (translated) the meaning cuts deeply into the heart. What amazes me, I know very well it is the nth times I have read the same surah/chapter. Yet, it is like the first time reading. And the same words has many layered upon layered of meaning resulting deep respect, a belief and a confirmation... It was sent down from the Creator of heavens and Earth.

Non-Muslim (some) believe Al-Qur'an borrowed story from Midrash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_and_the_Qur%27an

Mary sitting below a palm tree with Jesus - The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
Jesus speaks in the cradle - the Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ

It is not that easy to find those Gospels in internet let alone in the 7th century. But to compose some alleged words into Surah Maryam so perfectly is an impossible task to any man.

I do not understand Arabic, but listening the recitation of Surah Maryam (19)...just...SubhanAllah!

[soloqi]

As much as i would like to believe the quran is divine teachings, i believe some has been removed, the quran was revelations,written down there and then by companions of the prophet or memorised , the quran was compiled after the prophets death by order of Abu Bakr, the first Caliph.
The question I would like to have answered is,the Prophet why did he not have this compiled himself, it makes sense to want to make sure this is done, why was it done after his death.


From an intellectual point of view i would like answers

[AntiKarateKid]

As much as i would like to believe the quran is divine teachings, i believe some has been removed, the quran was revelations,written down there and then by companions of the prophet or memorised , the quran was compiled after the prophets death by order of Abu Bakr, the first Caliph.
The question I would like to have answered is,the Prophet why did he not have this compiled himself, it makes sense to want to make sure this is done, why was it done after his death.


From an intellectual point of view i would like answers

I suspect you are one of those missionary wannabes posing as Muslims.

All Muslims believe that the Quran was unaltered and there are verses where Allah promises this.

So to get down to your claims you missionary, the Propeht pbuh dictated the verses to not only his companions but to thousands and thousands of people. Moreover, he could not read or write but helped them place the suras and verses in order. His duty was to transmit the message and it was transmitted. It was memorized by thousands upon thousands of Muslims.

Moreover, the only thing Abu Bakr did was compile a unified written form. And when it was done, not one Muslim of the tens of thousands who memorized it opposed it.

Try again.

[GreyKode]

I suspect you are one of those missionary wannabes posing as Muslims.

All Muslims believe that the Quran was unaltered and there are verses where Allah promises this.

So to get down to your claims you missionary, the Propeht pbuh dictated the verses to not only his companions but to thousands and thousands of people. Moreover, he could not read or write but helped them place the suras and verses in order. His duty was to transmit the message and it was transmitted. It was memorized by thousands upon thousands of Muslims.

Moreover, the only thing Abu Bakr did was compile a unified written form. And when it was done, not one Muslim of the tens of thousands who memorized it opposed it.

Try again.

Besides, it wasn't the order of Abu Bakr "the first caliph" (really!!), it was Omar's (r.a.) idea and he was the one who convinced abu bakr(r.a.) to do that.

[Zafran]

salaam

and Abu Bakr(ra), Omar ibn Khattab (ra), Uthaman Ibn Affen (ra), Zadi Ibn Thabit (ra), Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) and many more were close companions of the porphet who learnt from the prophet and memorzied the Quran from him.

peace

[Al-Hanbali]

:salamext:

The Qur'aan was compiled and preserved in 3 stages:

1) During the lifetime of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam)
2) During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (radiyallahu 'anhu)
3) During the caliphate of 'Uthmaan (radiyallahu 'anhu)

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1) During the lifetime of the Prophet

We know that the Prophet was unlettered (could not read nor write) and he was sent to an unlettered nation; which is a miracle itself, since an unlettered man came with such a glorious and eloquent Qur'aan!

The fact that the Arabs were generally unlettered people meant they had v. strong memories and were known for this. Many of the companions would memorise the Qur'aan after it was revealed. This was the primary method of preservation!

The Prophet also ordered various scribes to write down the Qur'aan on parchments etc. This was secondary method of preservation. The written copy was kept under the supervision of Abu Bakr, then after his death, it was handed to 'Umar.

We also know that the Prophet would recite the Qur'aan every year to the Angel Jibreel, who would recite it back to him. In the final year, it was recited twice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

2) During the caliphate of Abu Bakr

During the caliphate of Abu Bakr, many of the companions who memorised the Qur'aan, passed away in the Battle of Yamaamah. This led to 'Umar suggesting that the Qur'aan be compiled in book form, since he was scared it may lead to the loss of the Qur'aan itself.

Abu Bakr initially refused, but then eventually agreed and asked Zayd ibn Thaabit to lead this project (he was one of the scribes of the Qur'aan). He also intially refused but he headed this initiative; with the utmost care and rigour. And the Qur'aan was compiled for the first time in the book form; between two covers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

3) During the caliphate of 'Uthmaan

During 'Uthmaan's caliphate, the Islamic empire had expanded and encompassed Egypt, Syria, Persia etc. Many Muslims differed over recitation; believing one recitation of the Qur'aan was superior to another, and so Hudayfah (one of the comapnions) suggested to 'Uthmaan, that he do something about this.

So 'Uthmaan sought advice from other companions, and they decided the best course of action would be to distribute official copies of the Qur'aan, and destroy others. This was consensus amongst the companions so it was binding on the Muslims.

So Zayd, was again tasked with heading this project, along with 3 other prominent companions from the tribe of Quraysh; and they scribed these copies.

Each copy was sent to every province with an official reciter, to teach the people so there would be no further confusion. I think there 5 copies. Every mushaf (copy of the Qur'aan) written after this had to conform to the copies of 'Uthmaan.

The purpose of 'Uthmaan's compilation was for correction!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats a short summary of how the Qur'aan has been compiled and preserved till this day! No alteration or anything like that.

And Allah knows best!

[soloqi]

Its not very islamic of you antikaratekid to judge me, any even if i was a missionary what would be the harm in wanting you understand Islam by me asking questions.
You really should show more religious tolerance, rather than judge people.
Why did the prophet not comission to have the relevations put into one book.
Rationality says that the quran should be in chronological order, but this is not the case.
Another question is if the prophet could not read, how was he able to read the first revelation in the cave??

Rather than attack member of the forum lets try to be mature about this.

[Zafran]

Rationality says that the quran should be in chronological order, but this is not the case.
Another question is if the prophet could not read, how was he able to read the first revelation in the cave??

1 - the Quran is non linear book - It does actually have a structure - Its not a a book by a man - its the word of God. Rationality doesnt say that the Quran "should be in chronological order"
2 - The prophet RECITED the Quran - Iqra can mean to read or recite.

[Al-Hanbali]

Rationality says that the quran should be in chronological order, but this is not the case..

Why is that so?

The Qur'aan was not revealed according to the mandates of human logic and order; rather it was due to the decree of Allaah!

The order which the Qur'aan is in today, was the same order in which the Qur'aan was recited by the Prophet, and the order in which the angel Jibreel recited it back to him.

Another question is if the prophet could not read, how was he able to read the first revelation in the cave??

Firstly, there's a difference of opinion regarding whther the Prophet could read or write anyway; it seems he couldnt for the most part, but on some occasions, Allaah gave him the ability.

But that is all besides the point becuase there was no 'reading' involved in the Cave of Hira anyway. The angel Jibreel appeared, and asked the Prophet to read. I Prophet replied he cannot read ... and you can read upon on the incident.

And Allah knows best!

[Zafran]

doesnt Iqra also mean to recite?

[Al-Hanbali]

^ yes it does.

[GreyKode]

^ yes it does.

Brothers Saif and Zafran, I believe it's a waste of time.

And sol just admit that youre not a muslim and be honest, your ignorance about basic issues is quiet obvious.

[soloqi]

thank you Saifur-Rahmaan,
However it is still widely acknowledged that the quran was compiled after the prophets death and parts were re arranged.

example....

Sura 2, verse 281:

'And fear the day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned and none shall be dealt with unjustly.'

Some also say that it was 2:282 or 2:278. [Kamal, Ahmad 'Adil: 'ulum al-Qur'an, Cairo, 1974, p.18.]

It has also been suggested that all three verses were revealed on one occasion. The Prophet died nine nights after the last revelation.

Others hold that Sura 5:4 was the last to be revealed:

'This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.'

The opinion that this verse was the last revelation is not sound according to many scholars, since it was revealed during the last pilgrimage of the Prophet. This information is based upon a hadith from 'Umar. Suyuti explains concerning the verse in Sura 5 that after it nothing concerning ahkam and hal'al and haram was revealed, and in this sense it is the 'completion' of religion. However, revelation reminding man of the coming day of judgement continued and the last such revelation is the above verse. [Sabuni, tibyan pp. 18-9]


Lets us not forget the quran is open to interpretation.

[Zafran]

thank you Saifur-Rahmaan,
However it is still widely acknowledged that the quran was compiled after the prophets death and parts were re arranged.

example....

Sura 2, verse 281:

'And fear the day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then shall every soul be paid what it earned and none shall be dealt with unjustly.'

Some also say that it was 2:282 or 2:278. [Kamal, Ahmad 'Adil: 'ulum al-Qur'an, Cairo, 1974, p.18.]

It has also been suggested that all three verses were revealed on one occasion. The Prophet died nine nights after the last revelation.

Others hold that Sura 5:4 was the last to be revealed:

'This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.'

The opinion that this verse was the last revelation is not sound according to many scholars, since it was revealed during the last pilgrimage of the Prophet. This information is based upon a hadith from 'Umar. Suyuti explains concerning the verse in Sura 5 that after it nothing concerning ahkam and hal'al and haram was revealed, and in this sense it is the 'completion' of religion. However, revelation reminding man of the coming day of judgement continued and the last such revelation is the above verse. [Sabuni, tibyan pp. 18-9]


Lets us not forget the quran is open to interpretation.

One word - BOGUS

watch this lecture by Hamza Yusuf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYwvg...BBB478&index=0

It tells you how the Quran was complied.

[AntiKarateKid]

One word - BOGUS

How does the order of the revealed verses say anything about it being compiled after his death?

Nice copy and pasting Soloqi but you left out this part.


However, revelation reminding man of the coming Day of Judgment continued and the last such revelation is the above verse. Al-Sabuni, , pp. 18-9, from Ahmed Denffer, Ulumul Quran.

Keep trying missionary. The Quran not as open to interpretation as the Bible which has spawned thousands of sects. Moreover, different interpretations don't vary too much at all, as far as the root tenets of faith go.

[Zafran]

Nice copy and pasting Soloqi but you left out this part.

However, revelation reminding man of the coming Day of Judgment continued and the last such revelation is the above verse. Al-Sabuni, , pp. 18-9, from Ahmed Denffer, Ulumul Quran.

Keep trying missionary. The Quran not as open to interpretation as the Bible which has spawned thousands of sects. Moreover, different interpretations don't vary too much at all, as far as the root tenets of faith go.

salaam

Yeah that copy and paste Job has sort of given him away.

peace

[soloqi]

The quran is oral sayings written down, every quran is the same and there are two surviving copies of the original books, one i believe is in turkey.
Go there and look for yourself it will be there,or just use the one you have at home and the same suras will be there as well..take a look...please..

[AntiKarateKid]

The quran is oral sayings written down, every quran is the same and there are two surviving copies of the original books, one i believe is in turkey.
Go there and look for yourself it will be there,or just use the one you have at home and the same suras will be there as well..take a look...please..

What does that even have to do with your "point"?

Moreover how can you call yourself a Muslim and say the Quran has been incomplete or what have you when Allah clearly says


We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact. (Al-Hijr 15:9)

Again, keep trying missionary.

[soloqi]

Revelations the prophet gave us were later compiled to make the quran. why was this done after the prophet died, Or why did the prophet not arrange before he died????

Just answer my question,

Is very unislamic to call a brother of the faith, anything otherwise, but may Allah forgive your narrow mindedness.

[Zafran]

Revelations the prophet gave us were later compiled to make the quran. why was this done after the prophet died, Or why did the prophet not arrange before he died????

Just answer my question,

Is very unislamic to call a brother of the faith, anything otherwise, but may Allah forgive your narrow mindedness.

salaam

No offence but you just quoted a lot of Garbage from terrible sources - before - its made us question your credibilty.

all muslims know that the Quran was not "re arranged" - its exactly the way the prophet recited the Quran from Jibreel (as).

[جوري]

actually if you simply browse this forum, you'd see that all the revelations were written down during the time of the prophet copies were made and a hafith to teach in far regions after death..

in fact page one of this very thread goes into quite the extensive details, properly sourced and with manuscript pictures..

pls read or use the search feature before you type things that are easily refuted!

all the best

[soloqi]

Having read the thread and still not given a rational answer i would like to gain more understanding.

Am i first to believe the first revelation was: sura 1

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Correct.

Earlier i was told by ZAFRAN

'all muslims know that the Quran was not "re arranged" - its exactly the way the prophet recited the Quran from Jibreel '

I was taught at regents park mosque in london and told the angel Jibreel squeezed the prophet and told him to read,

Gabriel repeated, "Recite in the Name of Your Lord Who created. He created the human being from a clot. Recite and your Lord is Most Honorable, Who taught (to write) with the pen, taught the human being what he knew not..." Holy Quran (Alaq 96: 1-5)

Why is this not in the early parts of the quran rather than near the end. there a 114 suras and this above event happend very early one during early stages of islam.

Could you help clear up my misunderstanding.

[جوري]

Name of Questioner

Muhammad - Egypt

Title

How the Qur’an Was Collected in the Current Order

Question

The Qur'an was revealed in the form of separate verses upon Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). It was only at the time of the Caliph `Uthman Ibn `Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Qur'an was collected in the order it is today. Can you please elaborate on who decided the current order of the Qur'an (I mean the order of the verses and the surahs (chapters) in the present form)? Can you also mention how it was all done? May Allah reward you for the service you are providing!

Date

05/Jun/2002

Name of Counsellor

`Abdul-Majeed Subh

Topic

Sciences of the Qur’an

Answer

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear brother in Islam, it give us great pleasure to receive your question. We seize the opportunity to implore Allah from the depths of our hearts to lead all the perplexed youth to the light of Islam, His true religion.


With regard to your question, Sheikh `Abdul-Majeed Subh, a prominent Azharite scholar, answers:

“The Glorious Qur'an was revealed gradually within a period of 23 years of Prophet Muhammad's (peace and blessings be upon him) outstanding life. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ordered his Companions to observe the order of the Qur'anic surahs. `Uthmaan Ibn `Affaan (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated: "Sometimes, several surahs were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). When anything was revealed to him, he would call on one of his scribes and say: 'Insert this into the surahs where there is such and such.' When some verses were revealed, he would say: 'Insert these verses into the surahs in which there is such and such.' When a single verse was revealed, he would say: 'Insert this verse into the surahs in which there is such and such.’ " (Reported by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and At-Tirmidhi)

There is another Hadith that is more worthy-mentioning here. It reads: “Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) told `Uthman Ibn Abu Al-`As: ‘Jibril (Gabriel) (peace and blessings be upon him) came (to me) and ordered me to insert this verse into this position of these surahs. The verse reads: ‘Lo! Allah enjoineth justice and kindness, and giving to kinsfolk, and forbiddeth lewdness and abomination and wickedness. He exhorteth you in order that ye may take heed’. (An-Nahl: 90)” (Reported by Imam Ahmad)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) recited the Glorious Qur'an before his honorable Companions in this very order. Consequently, the Companions committed it to their hearts in this order. Arch-angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) used to recite the Qur'an before Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) once a year and twice at the year of his death.

Muslim scholars have unanimously agreed on that the arrangement of every verse in the Qur'an is tawqifi (i.e. something that has come to us from Almighty Allah through Divine revelation) and is not left to humans or even Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) to decide. This is applicable to the order of surahs in the copy of the Glorious Qur'an. Consequently, the majority of scholars consider it makruh (detestable act) to recite the Qur'an starting from the final-positioned surahs.

Historically speaking, Abu Bakr As-Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him) was the one who actually collected all surahs of the Qur'an into one mus-haf (book compiling all the scripts of the various surahs of the Qur'an). Afterwards, `Uthman Ibn `Affan (may Allah be pleased with him) made more than one copy of what has been collected by Abu Bakr and sent them all over the Islamic territories. Thus, arranging the Glorious Qur'an has been done during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and during the Rightly-guided Caliphs' eras while thousands of Companions were still alive and witnessing the whole issue (nothing was reported to indicate the rejection of anyone of them to the issue)."


Do keep in touch. If you have any other question, don't hesitate to write back.



http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544002

[soloqi]

So it is not chronological as believed by some.
It may make sense to other but I still cannot get my head around it.

[جوري]

That is actually one of the miracles of the Quran for those who reflect, that a verse can be revealed a good 12 or twenty years apart from another, belong to a particular surah and yet flow in syntax, poetry, meaning, lyricism, context and transcendence...
Prophet Mohammed neither had a computer nor a filing cabinet for it to be in the way it is to be placed as he was told and have it come out like this:

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is the reason it is called the inimitable Quran ..

if you can't "wrap your head around it' then maybe you are not a Muslim?

all the best

[soloqi]

Its a shame i came to this forum to learn more about my deen but get branded all sorts of things,

what right do anyone have to say im not a muslim, unless I myself same i am, which I am not, as i have stated.

all this in an 'islamic forum'.

[جوري]

but you didn't come to learn, you came to assert and perhaps even threw fanaticism and paganism to describe both the religion and other Muslims in the process.. what would you like, that we turn a blind eyes to overt errors or that we handle you with kid gloves?

If you don't like the tenets of the religion then perhaps this religion isn't for you.. I'd rather deal with a non-Muslim than a deviant Muslim...
Islam is defined and is a done deal.. there is no room for re-interpretation!

all the best

[soloqi]

Gossamer skye - you have taught me much about religion, now i dont konw if you are muslim as well but you should really not get emotional about reading things that offend you and behaving like a reactionary by branding me a facist and pagan,

Maybe those are aspect of you psyche you have problems dealing with and projecting them onto other people like myself and branding them what you fear you are. I simply want to learn and gain a better understanding of things. Not have to deal with childish remarks, we should use our time better lets look at what we have in common.

[جوري]

Maybe indeed I am as you describe, but given that the majority of Muslim reply you received on board was similar and the only person who seemed in concordance with your beliefs was a Hindu, I am rather inclined to consider that the problem indeed lies with you?
Be that as it may, I suggest you spend less time psychoanalyzing me, and more time figuring out how you beg in the way of life you chose for your person?

all the best...

[Ali_008]

:sl:
Brother, the Qur'an is the best book ever known to mankind. Its not like other books which have a start and an end. Even thats one of the exclusive characteristics of the Qur'an though without such order, the book is perfect. The first chapter talks about asking for guidance from Allah and even the last chapter talks about asking from Allah, but protection from the whispers of shaytaan. Like you mentioned the first verse revealed comes in chapter 96 and the last verses revealed come in chapter 5 i.e.

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
verse # 3

The Qur'an is the Miracle of Miracles. Its beauty is unparallel and is unique in its own ways because its not the human speech but the speech of the Creator, Al-Khaliq.

[soloqi]

Its sad to know that the majority of muslims are closed minded and simply repeat what the are told rather than seek wisdom. spending their time insulting people and being verbally hostile, Is this what has become of the deen.

I embraced islam a few years ago and forever being call a non muslims because of my views, what give you or any other the right.

[جوري]

Do you perceive the truth as hostility?.. the reaction you are dispensing with here is completely out of proportion to the replies given you.. in fact, between closed minded, fanatics, pagan roots etc. I'd say you are dispensing with insults faster than we can blink.

Your views aren't in concert with Islam.. what gives us the right to 'judge', well it is as simple as your views not being accepted by ahel a sunna wa'jama3a.. most new converts on board whether embraced islam a month ago or ten yrs ago also don't share your views either...

prior I have told you, you are welcome to believe as you desire but you can't be called a Muslim when following desire.. You are also always welcome to learn your true faith anew if that is what you truly seek...

this is the last I want to indulge this.. this topic is about the Quran.. not your feelings or our psychological pitfalls .. pls try to limit your queries or protests to the subject matter

all the best

[- Qatada -]

Asalaam alaikum soloqi


Allah's Messenger actually told the companions how the Qur'anic verses would be arranged after he recieved it.

So if there was one verse that came in Surah al Tawbah for example, the Prophet would tell them where that verse fitted in the surahs order, and the companions would recite it like that. This is well known.

Furthermore, the sequence or order of the Quran was arranged by the Prophet himself and was also well-known to the Companions.[5] Each Ramadan, the Prophet would repeat after the angel Gabriel (reciting) the entire Quran in its exact order as far as it had been revealed, while in the presence of a number of his Companions.[6] In the year of his death, he recited it twice.[7] Thereby, the order of verses in each chapter and the order of the chapters became reinforced in the memories of each of the Companions present.
As the Companions spread out to various provinces with different populations, they took their recitations with them in order to instruct others.[8] In this way, the same Quran became widely retained in the memories of many people across vast and diverse areas of land.


[5] Ahmad von Denffer, Ulum al-Quran, The Islamic Foundation, UK, 1983, p.41-42; Arthur Jeffery, Materials for the History of the Text of the Quran, Leiden: Brill, 1937, p.31.

[6] Saheeh Al-Bukhari Vol.6, Hadith No.519.

[7] Saheeh Al-Bukhari Vol.6, Hadith Nos.518 & 520.

[8] Ibn Hisham, Seerah al-Nabi, Cairo, n.d., Vol.1, p.199.

Read this for more info;
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/19/

[AntiKarateKid]

As much as i would like to believe the quran is divine teachings, i believe some has been removed, the quran was revelations,written down there and then by companions of the prophet or memorised , the quran was compiled after the prophets death by order of Abu Bakr, the first Caliph.
The question I would like to have answered is,the Prophet why did he not have this compiled himself, it makes sense to want to make sure this is done, why was it done after his death.


From an intellectual point of view i would like answers

How could you say this if you embraced Islam?

[convert]

How could you say this if you embraced Islam?

Shia.

[Ramadhan]

NO Muslim would ever say that Qur'an has been compromised or altered in any way.

[abdullah_001]

one of the miracles of the Quran.. aside from its role in everyday life, politcs/economics/social structure/inheritance/ divorce, marriage, guidance/stories of old and things to come etc is the language.. which is completely different than anything encountered that even the best poets couldn't come up with similar and have it compass what it needs, and differs from the hadith which are the sayings of the prophet..
hence i is considered the living miracle..

you can listen to this recitation and notice how every verse ends with the same ending as an example of its poetry..

:sl:

Sister, forgive me for saying this but the Qur'an isn't poetry.

We know the incident with Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) when he was heading towards the Ka'bah and he overheard the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) reciting the Qur'an. He thought it could be the work of a poet (he was hiding at this point) while the Prophet (peace be upon him) was reciting from surah Haaqah, and the ayah he was reciting was "It is not the word of a poet, little is that you believe!" (41). Thereby Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) thought if it wasn't the work of a poet, it could be the word of a soothsayer and the Prophet (peace be upon him) was reciting the next ayah, " Nor is it the word of a soothsayer (or a foreteller), little is that you remember!" (42).

and also the incident when Al-Walid bin Mughira and others were plotting against of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). They accused the Prophet (peace be upon him) of many things one of which was that he (peace be upon him) is a poet and Mughira retorted saying we know poetry in all its forms and meters and this is not poetry.


There are 16 divisions in Arabic poetry based on the rhyme schemes and Qur'an doesn't fall into any of those categories hence why it's not poetry. Moreover, not only is Qur'an not poetry, it is neither a rhyming prose, nor is it a normal speech not is it a speech of soothsayers.

Subhan Allah, and Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an, "And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful. (23) But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers." (Surah Baqarah).

Subhan Allah, just two ayahs in the Qur'an with so much wisdom behind it, Subhan Allah. And the Qur'an has 6286 verses if I remember correctly, Subhan Allah. Every ayah of the Qur'an is a miracle, Subhan Allah.


Sorry sister, I don't mean to offend you in anyway but I just wanted to clear this up, forgive me again.

[جوري]

you didn't offend me-- Jazaka Allah khyran, perhaps I should look for a better choice of words, I didn't mean 'poetry' in the sense that you may have understood. Rather characterized by lyricism & rhyme..

:w:

[abdullah_001]

As much as i would like to believe the quran is divine teachings, i believe some has been removed, the quran was revelations,written down there and then by companions of the prophet or memorised , the quran was compiled after the prophets death by order of Abu Bakr, the first Caliph.
The question I would like to have answered is,the Prophet why did he not have this compiled himself, it makes sense to want to make sure this is done, why was it done after his death.


From an intellectual point of view i would like answers

:sl:

It is because at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Qur'an was memorized. As far as your question regarding Prophet (peace be upon him) not compiling the Qur'an himself, dear brother, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) could not read or write, how could he have compiled? And second, during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as he(peace be upon him) would receive revelations the sahabi would record it.

And it was done after the Prophet (peace be upon him)s death because during the wars of apostasy while Abu Bakr (ra)'s was khalifah too many Sahabi who had memorized the Qur'an had been killed. This raised a concern that if the Sahabi who have memorized the Qur'an keep dying in such a way then the Qur'an may be lost which is why after consulting the other companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) Abu Bakr (ra) made the decision to compile Qur'an into a book.


“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)” (15:9).

Do you still think Qur'an isn't complete when Allah (swt) is protecting the Qur'an from being changed or altered?

:w:

[soloqi]

Many thanks, however i just need some more clarification take for example:
Sura 53:19-23:
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.

[53:19] Compare this with the female idols Allaat and Al-`Uzzah.

[53:20] And Manaat, the third one.

[53:21] Do you have sons, while He has these as daughters?

Sura 53:19-23, centered specifically on the three goddesses worshiped by the pagans of Arabia called Allat, al-Uzza and Manat. Initially Muhammad (pbuh) praised these goddesses by confirming their existence as deities that intercede before Allah. This caused the pagans to bow in worship and also praise Muhammad (pbuh) for speaking highly of their idols. Needless to say, they were not at all pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) when he later claimed that his statements were not from God but from Satan who caused him to slip!

Should that be the case, (slip of tongue so to speak why then is it still present,

[AntiKarateKid]

Many thanks, however i just need some more clarification take for example:
Sura 53:19-23:
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.

[53:19] Compare this with the female idols Allaat and Al-`Uzzah.

[53:20] And Manaat, the third one.

[53:21] Do you have sons, while He has these as daughters?

Sura 53:19-23, centered specifically on the three goddesses worshiped by the pagans of Arabia called Allat, al-Uzza and Manat. Initially Muhammad (pbuh) praised these goddesses by confirming their existence as deities that intercede before Allah. This caused the pagans to bow in worship and also praise Muhammad (pbuh) for speaking highly of their idols. Needless to say, they were not at all pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) when he later claimed that his statements were not from God but from Satan who caused him to slip!

Should that be the case, (slip of tongue so to speak why then is it still present,

Thankyou very very much for finally confirming that you are not Muslim. What you have just said is utter nonsense. Read the surah, even a deceitful missionary such as yourself can see.


Where in there does he say that those false gods can intercede? That surah is contrasting Muhammad's true vision to the false idols that the people have. Where is this BS about satan?

53:23] These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. GOD never authorized such a blasphemy. They follow conjecture, and personal desire, when the true guidance has come to them herein from their Lord.

Any other garbage you want to spew you brain dead viper?

[جوري]

--------------- is a Quran only sect.. thank you for confirming our beliefs all along..

Here is the actual tafsir:


Refuting Idolatry, Al-Lat and Al-`Uzza

Allah the Exalted rebukes the idolators for worshipping idols and taking rivals to Him. They built houses for their idols to resemble the Ka`bah built by Prophet Ibrahim, Allah's Khalil.

[أَفَرَءَيْتُمُ اللَّـتَ]

(Have you then considered Al-Lat,) Al-Lat was a white stone with inscriptions on. There was a house built around Al-Lat in At-Ta'if with curtains, servants and a sacred courtyard around it. The people of At-Ta'if, the tribe of Thaqif and their allies, worshipped Al-Lat. They would boast to Arabs, except the Quraysh, that they had Al-Lat. Ibn Jarir said, "They derived Al-Lat's name from Allah's Name, and made it feminine. Allah is far removed from what they ascribe to Him. It was reported that Al-Lat is pronounced Al-Lat because, according to `Abdullah bin `Abbas, Mujahid, and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, Al-Lat was a man who used to mix Sawiq (a kind of barley mash) with water for the pilgrims during the time of Jahiliyyah. When he died, they remained next to his grave and worshipped him.'' Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said about Allah's statement,

[اللَّـتَ وَالْعُزَّى]

(Al-Lat, and Al-`Uzza.) "Al-Lat was a man who used to mix Sawiq for the pilgrims.'' Ibn Jarir said, "They also derived the name for their idol Al-`Uzza from Allah's Name Al-`Aziz. Al-`Uzza was a tree on which the idolators placed a monument and curtains, in the area of Nakhlah, between Makkah and At-Ta'if. The Quraysh revered Al-`Uzza.'' During the battle of Uhud, Abu Sufyan said, "We have Al-`Uzza, but you do not have Al-`Uzza.'' Allah's Messenger replied,

«قُولُوا: اللهُ مَوْلَانَا وَلَا مَوْلَى لَكُم»

(Say, "Allah is Our Supporter, but you have no support.'') Manat was another idol in the area of Mushallal near Qudayd, between Makkah and Al-Madinah. The tribes of Khuza`ah, Aws and Khazraj used to revere Manat during the time of Jahiliyyah. They used to announce Hajj to the Ka`bah from next to Manat. Al-Bukhari collected a statement from `A'ishah with this meaning. There were other idols in the Arabian Peninsula that the Arabs revered just as they revered the Ka`bah, besides the three idols that Allah mentioned in His Glorious Book. Allah mentioned these three here because they were more famous than the others. An-Nasa'i recorded that Abu At-Tufayl said, "When the Messenger of Allah conquered Makkah, he sent Khalid bin Al-Walid to the area of Nakhlah where the idol of Al-`Uzza was erected on three trees of a forest. Khalid cut the three trees and approached the house built around it and destroyed it. When he went back to the Prophet and informed him of the story, the Prophet said to him,

«ارْجِعْ فَإِنَّكَ لَمْ تَصْنَعْ شَيْئًا»

(Go back and finish your mission, for you have not finished it.) Khalid went back and when the custodians who were also its servants of Al-`Uzza saw him, they started invoking by calling Al-`Uzza! When Khalid approached it, he found a naked woman whose hair was untidy and who was throwing sand on her head. Khalid killed her with the sword and went back to the Messenger of Allah , who said to him,

«تِلْكَ الْعُزَّى»

(That was Al-`Uzza!)'' Muhammad bin Ishaq narrated, "Al-Lat belonged to the tribe of Thaqif in the area of At-Ta'if. Banu Mu`attib were the custodians of Al-Lat and its servants.'' I say that the Prophet sent Al-Mughirah bin Shu`bah and Abu Sufyan Sakhr bin Harb to destroy Al-Lat. They carried out the Prophet's command and built a Masjid in its place in the city of At-Ta'if. Muhammad bin Ishaq said that Manat used to be the idol of the Aws and Khazraj tribes and those who followed their religion in Yathrib (Al-Madinah). Manat was near the coast, close to the area of Mushallal in Qudayd. The Prophet sent Abu Sufyan Sakhr bin Harb or `Ali bin Abi Talib to demolish it. Ibn Ishaq said that Dhul-Khalasah was the idol of the tribes of Daws, Khath`am and Bajilah, and the Arabs who resided in the area of Tabalah. I say that Dhul-Khalasah was called the Southern Ka`bah, and the Ka`bah in Makkah was called the Northern Ka`bah. The Messenger of Allah sent Jarir bin `Abdullah Al-Bajali to Dhul-Khalasah and he destroyed it. Ibn Ishaq said that Fals was the idol of Tay' and the neighboring tribes in the Mount of Tay', such as Salma and Ajja. Ibn Hisham said that some scholars of knowledge told him that the Messenger of Allah sent `Ali bin Abi Talib to Fals and he destroyed it and found two swords in its treasure, which the Prophet then gave to `Ali as war spoils. Muhammad bin Ishaq also said that the tribes of Himyar, and Yemen in general, had a house of worship in San`a' called Riyam. He mentioned that there was a black dog in it and that the religious men who went with Tubba` removed it, killed it and demolished the building. Ibn Ishaq said that Ruda' was a structure of Bani Rabi`ah bin Ka`b bin Sa`d bin Zayd Manat bin Tamim, which Al-Mustawghir bin Rabi`ah bin Ka`b bin Sa`d demolished after Islam. In Sindad there was Dhul-Ka`bat, the idol of the tribes of Bakr and Taghlib, the sons of the Wa'il, and also the Iyad tribes.

Next

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=53&tid=50989

[جوري]

Thankyou very very much for finally confirming that you are not Muslim. What you have just said is utter nonsense. Read the surah, even a deceitful missionary such as yourself can see.

He has been found out from the link..
I am not sure if these mindless folks think we're going to see a link with something eluding to Islam and jump all over it.. God what deviants are out there..
May Allah swt keep us aright the straight path.. truly these are the tribulations of the end!

:w:

[AntiKarateKid]

He didn't even cite an article, he just cited the Quran from submission which is the same as anywhere else.

[جوري]

He didn't even cite an article, he just cited the Quran from submission which is the same as anywhere else.

whatever it is he is just another deviant..
How hard do they try to separate the Quran from sunna and us from both so we'd end up like those Allah swt has described as having gone astray!
Islam is a complete way of life, an All or none.. if it isn't for you then find yourself something else.. be an agnostic or something.. I don't understand why that is so difficult?

[soloqi]

Im curious if some of you call yourself muslims, you should konw only Allah has the right pass judgement.
If this is a place to learn about and gain clarification about my faith you:
Gossamer and Antikaratekid should act in a more humble fashion, and share what you know about Islam to me, that is your duty as muslims not to pass judgement and seem in****ing in your choice of words.
Who gave you the right to call me a non believer?

I was told about the five pillars, and told about the sayings of the prophet.
The sayings of the prophet are guides not orders.

What is more important The Quran or Hadiths, you talked about Quran only sects.

I have not heard this term before, care to elaborate without your childish remarks...

[AntiKarateKid]

Im curious if some of you call yourself muslims, you should konw only Allah has the right pass judgement.
If this is a place to learn about and gain clarification about my faith you:
Gossamer and Antikaratekid should act in a more humble fashion, and share what you know about Islam to me, that is your duty as muslims not to pass judgement and seem in****ing in your choice of words.
Who gave you the right to call me a non believer?

I was told about the five pillars, and told about the sayings of the prophet.
The sayings of the prophet are guides not orders.

What is more important The Quran or Hadiths, you talked about Quran only sects.

I have not heard this term before, care to elaborate without your childish remarks...

What BS, you spew the same trash as those anti-islamist fools. You say that the Quran has been altered, that Muhammad pbuh praised false gods and spoke from the devil and you have the gall to call yourself a Muslim?

Cut the crap and leave. You have been exposed and the mods have been alerted to your deceit. You are NOT Muslim.

[جوري]

you are a believer in something other than Islam.
again, judging by the sites you cite, and the words you write..
Your beliefs are at odds with Islamic sunni beliefs.. you are welcome to stay on the forum and say whatever, we'll point it out every step of the way though.. I can already see it makes you uncomfortable since, the only thing you come up with after a proper refutation is how dare you judge me.
we'll we have already judged your beliefs to be non_Islamic and you not a Muslim based on what you profess here.

If someone clearly has green eyes but keeps insisting they are black, is it a judgment when others point the obvious or a proper observation?
You need to assess your reasoning and your beliefs all together..
More than one Muslim has told you and repeatedly that your beliefs are at odds with mains stream Islam!

all the best

[soloqi]

Childish remarks again, your posts are very unwelcomming to somebody how simply wants to understand more about one own faith, but rather that be rational about my questions and uncertanties, you seem to rant like a fanatic.

I say again WHO gave you the right to call me a non muslim...you seem to be evading the questions and rant like a taliban extremist.

Im guessing your a ****** follower, If not what tyoe of muslim are you ?

Please just try to control yourselves and answer so questions for me, then feel tree to act like children and be all emotional.

[soloqi]

the *** are for W a H a B i Muslim

[AntiKarateKid]

Childish remarks again, your posts are very unwelcomming to somebody how simply wants to understand more about one own faith, but rather that be rational about my questions and uncertanties, you seem to rant like a fanatic.

I say again WHO gave you the right to call me a non muslim...you seem to be evading the questions and rant like a taliban extremist.

Im guessing your a ****** follower, If not what tyoe of muslim are you ?

Please just try to control yourselves and answer so questions for me, then feel tree to act like children and be all emotional.

Tell me. If you are a Muslim, why do you assert that the Quran has been changed and that Prophet Muhammad pbuh supported false gods and spoke from the devil?

Answer that. And Taliban? HA! Evading questions? After I refuted you? HA!

[جوري]

I am not seeing any emotionality here, I think we've all been a very matter of fact.
A practicing sunni Muslim is the best judge of what a Muslim is, on authority of their collective knowledge of Islam. I have taken the liberty to point you out. I AM judging you as a non-Muslim based on what you have written here you are not merely swerving on matters of Islam you are down right outside its bounds.. no emotionality here, very matter of fact, I reference you to my earlier analogy of course!

all the best

[soloqi]

Its a good Allah will judge me and not you, with you closemindness and your rufusal to engage in debate rather rant, push your ego aside for a moment.

Islamic Forum for the Muslim and non-Muslim community. Discuss here about Islam and the oneness of Allah. Find here Islamic Forum articles and information.

Is what is google said about this site, its sad to not see this here, but simply people passing judgement on other.

S u N N I Muslim, that interesting.

If you cannot answer any of my other questions in a rational fashion, please do try this one. Did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ever say he was a Sunni muslim, Where is it in the quran mention of S U N N I muslims....

I call myself Muslim, Nothing more, why do you call yourself a S U N N I muslim...

[AntiKarateKid]

Its a good Allah will judge me and not you, with you closemindness and your rufusal to engage in debate rather rant, push your ego aside for a moment.

Islamic Forum for the Muslim and non-Muslim community. Discuss here about Islam and the oneness of Allah. Find here Islamic Forum articles and information.

Is what is google said about this site, its sad to not see this here, but simply people passing judgement on other.

S u N N I Muslim, that interesting.

If you cannot answer any of my other questions in a rational fashion, please do try this one. Did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ever say he was a Sunni muslim, Where is it in the quran mention of S U N N I muslims....

I call myself Muslim, Nothing more, why do you call yourself a S U N N I muslim...

Answer my question. Why did you say the Quran was altered, Prophet Muhammad spoke from the devil, and that he said there were other deities beside Allah?

[جوري]

Its a good Allah will judge me and not you, with you closemindness and your rufusal to engage in debate rather rant, push your ego aside for a moment.

Islamic Forum for the Muslim and non-Muslim community. Discuss here about Islam and the oneness of Allah. Find here Islamic Forum articles and information.

Is what is google said about this site, its sad to not see this here, but simply people passing judgement on other.

S u N N I Muslim, that interesting.

If you cannot answer any of my other questions in a rational fashion, please do try this one. Did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ever say he was a Sunni muslim, Where is it in the quran mention of S U N N I muslims....

I call myself Muslim, Nothing more, why do you call yourself a S U N N I muslim...

Allah swt will judge whether or not you are going to heaven or hell, we are not funneling you to either destiny here, we are merely pointing out the fact that you are not a Muslim .. A Muslim that fits the definition, accepts the Quran and Sunna.

are you familiar with the Quran?

3:32
Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.



48: 23] (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah already in the past: no change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.

you are familiar with the word سُنَّةَ? as such mentioned in the very verse 48:23 cited above and here in Arabic


13 الفتح 48 23 سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلا
http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English

n. rubric, norm, mores, tradition,

yes mentioned in the Quran, to follow the tradition of the prophet!

I believe the more you write the deeper the hole you dig for yourself, for it shows you are not even familiar with Quranic content for that matter!

all the best

[soloqi]

I wanted to know who the Quran was compiled, was it chronigical, different places say different things.
One Imam i asked said that verse in the quran was not valid because according the interpretation somebody gave me.
You see if somebody say something to my i want to know if there is truth to it, but i seem to ask questions and the reception by some folks here is chidish.

So please answer my question about S u N N I muslims, and why does the word
W A H A B B I, show up as asterixes, hmmm censorsed forums me thinks, the Illusion of free speech perhaps.

If you get rid of people who you dont want to hear or listen to you only have people around you that tell you what you want to hear.

[جوري]

1-the first page goes into depth on how the Quran was compiled, I have also recommended you the book 'A history of Quranic text' by Dr. Al'Azami
2- All your questions in fact have been answered including the following the tradition Aka Sunna from the Quran itself if you'd bother read the replies instead of reacting to each one that questions your common sense
3- Wa habbi is censored since this isn't a sectarian forum
4- so far you've been allowed to write as you pleased, we have pointed out that this isn't correct from tafsir ibn kathir and the Quran itself.

[AntiKarateKid]

I wanted to know who the Quran was compiled, was it chronigical, different places say different things.
One Imam i asked said that verse in the quran was not valid because according the interpretation somebody gave me.
You see if somebody say something to my i want to know if there is truth to it, but i seem to ask questions and the reception by some folks here is chidish.

So please answer my question about S u N N I muslims, and why does the word
W A H A B B I, show up as asterixes, hmmm censorsed forums me thinks, the Illusion of free speech perhaps.

If you get rid of people who you dont want to hear or listen to you only have people around you that tell you what you want to hear.

Bull. No muslim would say that a verse was invalid.

So answer my question, how can you say that Muhammad pbuh spoke from the devil and supported false gods and call yourself Muslim?

[Tony]

I wanted to know who the Quran was compiled, was it chronigical, different places say different things.
One Imam i asked said that verse in the quran was not valid because according the interpretation somebody gave me.
You see if somebody say something to my i want to know if there is truth to it, but i seem to ask questions and the reception by some folks here is chidish.

So please answer my question about S u N N I muslims, and why does the word
W A H A B B I, show up as asterixes, hmmm censorsed forums me thinks, the Illusion of free speech perhaps.

If you get rid of people who you dont want to hear or listen to you only have people around you that tell you what you want to hear.

dont let us keep you then:skeleton:

[soloqi]

I never said such things Antikatatekid, i was told this and wanted to find out its origins, I do not believe something because somebody tells me something I have to/need to find the answers for myself, its my God gave me a brain to use it.

So could you answer my question about the S u n n i muslim, and where did such term come from, please.

If this is not a sectarian forum why sensor certain words, Reminds me of what the BBC do, censorship and information control.

I still have alot to learn about my faith (Islam), hence forgive me for not learning quicker, I just dont wont to be a blind follower.

So the S u n n I muslim, where did that start.

[AntiKarateKid]

Many thanks, however i just need some more clarification take for example:
Sura 53:19-23:
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.

[53:19] Compare this with the female idols Allaat and Al-`Uzzah.

[53:20] And Manaat, the third one.

[53:21] Do you have sons, while He has these as daughters?

Sura 53:19-23, centered specifically on the three goddesses worshiped by the pagans of Arabia called Allat, al-Uzza and Manat. Initially Muhammad (pbuh) praised these goddesses by confirming their existence as deities that intercede before Allah. This caused the pagans to bow in worship and also praise Muhammad (pbuh) for speaking highly of their idols. Needless to say, they were not at all pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) when he later claimed that his statements were not from God but from Satan who caused him to slip!

Should that be the case, (slip of tongue so to speak why then is it still present,

These are your words. You must understand that your words made you sound like one of those Christians who pretends to be Muslim and attacks Islam. Moreover your statement that the Quran has parts missing is not consistent with Islam at all.

[soloqi]

No they are not my words, i simply pasted them here type in the three daughters of Allah in google and its there, i just wanted rational muslims to help me understand this passage better as as yet cannot read and understand quranic arabic.

Its funny how you are evading the S U N N I question, dont beat around the bush, Could somebody give me their insight about the S U N N I question, rather that quote my previous and explained posts....

[AntiKarateKid]

No they are not my words, i simply pasted them here type in the three daughters of Allah in google and its there, i just wanted rational muslims to help me understand this passage better as as yet cannot read and understand quranic arabic.

Its funny how you are evading the S U N N I question, dont beat around the bush, Could somebody give me their insight about the S U N N I question, rather that quote my previous and explained posts....

I'm not sure about all the differences between sunni and shia. You're better off asking someone else.

Soloqi, your opening posts showed beliefs to be so far from mainstream Islam (your belief that the Quran was not preserved) that I was immediately suspicious. Do you actually believe this or was that also someone else' words?

[ahsan28]

S u N N I Muslim, that interesting.

If you cannot answer any of my other questions in a rational fashion, please do try this one. Did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ever say he was a Sunni muslim, Where is it in the quran mention of S U N N I muslims....

I call myself Muslim, Nothing more, why do you call yourself a S U N N I muslim...

The term sunni refers to Ahl e Sunnah Wal Jama'ah (people of sunnah and congregation). The reason distinction was made is because of the heretical claims that emerged from time to time.

According to Imam al-Shafi'i (may Allah be pleased with him):-

"He who holds what the Muslim community (Jama'ah) holds shall be regarded as following the community, and he who holds differently shall be regarded as opposing the community he was ordered to follow. So the error comes from separation; but in the community as a whole there is no error concerning the meaning of the Qur'an, the Sunnah, and analogy (qiyas)."

Imam al-Tirmidhi (4/2167) reported on the authority of Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who said: "Verily my Ummah would not agree (or he said the Ummah of Muhammad) would not agree upon error and Allah's hand is over the group and whoever dissents from them departs to Hell." (see also Mishkat, 1/173)

Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reported the Prophet (Peace be upon him) as saying:

"One who found in his Amir (the ruler of the true Islamic state; which is absent today) something which he disliked should hold his patience, for one who separated from the main body of the Muslims even to the extent of a handspan and then he died, would die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahiliyya." (Sahih Muslim, 3/4559; English ed'n & Sahih al-Bukhari, 9/257).

Imam's Ahmad and Abu Dawood (Allah's mercy be upon them) said that Abu Dharr (Allah be pleased with him) reported the Prophet (Peace be upon him) as saying:

"He who separates from the main body (of the Ummah) by even a hand's breadth from the Community he throws off Islam from his neck." (Mishkat-ul-Masabih, 1/185 & Sunan Abu Dawood, 3/4740).

'Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported that on one occasion Allah's Messenger (Peace and blessings be upon him) stood up among them and said, "Whoever among you desires the centre of paradise should keep close to the Jama'ah for the Devil closely accompanies the solitary individual and is more distant from two." (Collected by Imam Tirmidhi)

Abu Dharr (Allah be pleased with him) reported from the Prophet (Peace be upon him) that, "Two are better than one, and three better than two; so stick to the Jama'ah for verily Allah, Most Great and Glorious, will only unite my nation on guidance."

[soloqi]

I am not seeing any emotionality here, I think we've all been a very matter of fact.
A practicing sunni Muslim is the best judge of what a Muslim is, on authority of their collective knowledge of Islam. I have taken the liberty to point you out. I AM judging you as a non-Muslim based on what you have written here you are not merely swerving on matters of Islam you are down right outside its bounds.. no emotionality here, very matter of fact, I reference you to my earlier analogy of course!

all the best

Its strange how Gossamer hsa gone all quiet all a sudden, evading my question about If the Prophet called himself a S U N N I muslim, and where in the Quran it mentions Sunni Muslims....

Tony I see that you dont like reading things you dont agree on, and not welcome opiinons that differ from yours, I see you want to be closeminded in certain things.

I will admit my view are not those heard by mainstream muslims, I have been around al mu harjaroon, hiz bullah,wa habi's, and S u nni muslims and well found many muslims blind followers, who do things without questionoing things. Simply because their imam told them, or their parents told them.
With such divides in islam it is very hard to seek the truth, which is all i want to do. God gave us a brain to use it, and somany people dont exersise that muscle, they would rather watch television and have the 9-5 job and mortgage.

I was not in the country at the time but a friend had to go hospital, and she asked her muslim friend to go with her, she refused on the grounds she had to do prayers.
Now that may be to some a good thing, but personally speaking i would rather be at somebodies side in hospital, rather than go to a mosque to pray.
To me that is not what Islam is about.

Thats just one of many examples. But i am here simply to get clarification on Islam nothing more.

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

Which Muslim told you that the Quran has not been preserved?

Moreover that friend who refused to go to the hospital is ridiculous. They could have just prayed at the hospital. Allah would surely understand. If you want clarification, thats cool. Wahabbiis and their ilk are not mainstream Islam.

We are here to give you clarification brother but in the future word your posts more clearly to show that you are asking a question and not attacking Islam.

Other than that lets start again. Would you like insight into any other parts of Islam?

[جوري]

Its strange how Gossamer hsa gone all quiet all a sudden, evading my question about If the Prophet called himself a S U N N I muslim, and where in the Quran it mentions Sunni Muslims....

I am quiet because I have already given you an answer and have better things to do with my time than waste it on vain discourse on someone who has no interest in reading but has a volatile reaction when his deviancy is pointed out. I have quoted you from the Quran the very word sunna given you dictionary definition and where we are to follow it..

[Allah commands us in the Qur'an:] Obey Allah and obey the Prophet (5:92), where we are told that just as Allah's orders in the Qur'an are worthy of obedience, so are the interpretations and applications of Allah's orders by the Prophet equally binding on the Muslim Community. In fact, Allah's orders and the orders of the Prophet based on them are essentially one, for: Whoever obeys the Prophet, he has obeyed Allah (4:80).

I am not sure how many times must I explain it?
Sunna = traidition of the prophet (see the dictionary definition on prior page)

Read the Quran and familiarize yourself with the basic tenets of Islam before you get too confident in what you are saying.. It isn't weakness as you perceive simply loss of interest!

all the best

[ahsan28]

With such divides in islam it is very hard to seek the truth, which is all i want to do. Peace

So?

Have you read this hadith?

"Awf ibn Malik reported that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said, 'The Jews split into 71 sects: one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 sects: 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose hand is my soul, my Ummah will split into 73 sects: one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.' Someone asked, 'O Messenger ofAllah (Peace be upon him), who will they be?' He replied, 'The main body of the Muslims (al-Jama'ah).' And in another version of this Hadith the Prophet (Peace be upon him) goes onto say that the saved sect, "...Are those who follow my and my Sahaba's path" (Tirmidhi, vol. 2, pg. 89)


Which is the main body of the Muslims??????

[soloqi]

I am not seeing any emotionality here, I think we've all been a very matter of fact.
A practicing sunni Muslim is the best judge of what a Muslim is, on authority of their collective knowledge of Islam. I have taken the liberty to point you out. I AM judging you as a non-Muslim based on what you have written here you are not merely swerving on matters of Islam you are down right outside its bounds.. no emotionality here, very matter of fact, I reference you to my earlier analogy of course!

all the best

From what you said about S u n n i muslims, I interpreted that as a sect, After the prophets death, thats when the division began.
So all we need is a Caliph to do a censous, and find which is the Majority. Islam differs from Arabia, and if wa habi is not the majority why do they have stewardship of mecca, should it not be the majority rules.

There is too much division, and because we are too busy fighing each other what was once called the Islamic world is in ruins.

Can we not accept all accept that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad was the last prophet. And sort our house in order.

But from members of this forum which one is it...

[AntiKarateKid]

From what you said about S u n n i muslims, I interpreted that as a sect, After the prophets death, thats when the division began.
So all we need is a Caliph to do a censous, and find which is the Majority. Islam differs from Arabia, and if wa habi is not the majority why do they have stewardship of mecca, should it not be the majority rules.

There is too much division, and because we are too busy fighing each other what was once called the Islamic world is in ruins.

Can we not accept all accept that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad was the last prophet. And sort our house in order.

But from members of this forum which one is it...

I agree. We are just Muslims and need to get together again.

[جوري]

From what you said about S u n n i muslims, I interpreted that as a sect, After the prophets death, thats when the division began.

You interpreted it as such because you are ill read on basic Islamic tenets. Sunna means traditional again see previous page with dictionary definition.

So all we need is a Caliph to do a censous, and find which is the Majority. Islam differs from Arabia, and if wa habi is not the majority why do they have stewardship of mecca, should it not be the majority rules.

Again, your understanding of the terminology is flawed.. I guarantee you don't even know who Ibn abdel wahab is. and I quote a great scholar.

I am certainly not a w****i, and do not know of any scholar even in Saudi Arabia who calls himself a w****i. There is no sect in Islam called W*****sm. I did read some of Ibn Abdel Wahab’s works and I did write about him, but I never invited people to follow him, or any particular scholar or leader. I have great respect for him as one of our outstanding scholars.

May I suggest you familiarize yourself the difference between scholarship & factions?

There is too much division, and because we are too busy fighing each other what was once called the Islamic world is in ruins.

Actually 85-90% of Muslims are Sunni
the Sunni (85%) and Shi'a (15%).
shia literally means faction sunni means traditional!

Can we not accept all accept that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad was the last prophet. And sort our house in order.

We do, it seems that you don't however!

But from members of this forum which one is it...

Isn't it obvious? let me spell it out.. we are traidtional Muslims. The jama3a!

[soloqi]

Where as some may call themselves traditional muslims, I would like to keep it simply and to the point.
And i have heard of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab, I have heard a hadith that went something like this...The life of one muslim is more important than the Ka'ba

[جوري]

Where as some may call themselves traditional muslims, I would like to keep it simply and to the point.
And i have heard of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab, I have heard a hadith that went something like this...The life of one muslim is more important than the Ka'ba

It isn't simple and to the point when one is a deviant A hmadi or a ba hai, or a quran only or any other shiite faction. Such folks are not Muslims and they are not entitled to the rights of Muslims as per ISlam for instance, making pilgrimage.

Ibn Abdul wahab, didn't write ahadith, he was a revivalist of the old traditions.

If you are a new convert and truly have a desire to learn Islam, you need to learn it from a proper source.. I don't know who is teaching you what, but your beliefs aren't acceptable by main stream Muslims -- I hope you weren't indoctrinated into some NOI or Quran only or whatever else out there.. you have to learn proper islam as to not lead yourself and others astray..

Anyhow, I have contributed all I desire to impart on this topic, and hope you'll heed the advise given you here if this religion is of interest to you.

all the best!

[soloqi]

The most indoctrinated people are the ones that think that they are not indoctrinated.
I learn more from the help of others and the intelligence i was endowed with by Allah.
Beats being a blind follower, which i come across alot of thses days.

[جوري]

The most indoctrinated people are the ones that think that they are not indoctrinated.
I learn more from the help of others and the intelligence i was endowed with by Allah.
Beats being a blind follower, which i come across alot of thses days.

I am glad you are coming to your senses..

all the best

[BlackMamba]

After reading some of solquis posts, it seems that you have some very strange blasphemous beliefs. If you claim to me a believer, I won't call you otherwise as that would be a big sin on myself. However, you really need to look at what you are saying. The Quran is protected by Allah, it cannot be changed or altered and this is because of the simple fact that Allah says so in the Quran.
Surah Al-Hijr
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (15:9)

Just based on that ayah, no Muslim can believe that the Quran was altered. NO Way!!! It is the KalamAllah, to say it was altered by humans is saying it is not the Kalamallah. You can't do that if you are Muslim.



And some one was inquiring about shias. Well this was written by Mufti Desai from askimam.org and he concludes that shias are not Muslim.

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.

UNBRIDGEABLE DIVIDE
-----------------------------
The protracted contrariety between Islam and Shiaism is but a clear reflection of fundamental differences between the two. The only common denominator between Islam and Shiaism is the Islamic Kalima. The rest of Shiaism has very little in common with mainstream Islam. The unbridgeable divide between the two is entrenched in some of the core fundamentals of this sect, such as:

* THE TWELVE IMAMS

Imamate is a divine station like Nabuwwat. This implies that Sunnis, who do not believe in Imamate, are unbelievers. According to their beliefs, Allah had chosen twelve men to success Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam). The Twelfth Imam however disappeared at the age of five. He is believed to be the awaited Mahdi.

* THE STATUS OF THE IMAMS

The Imams possess more knowledge than the Ambiya (a.s). They are superior to the Ambiya and the entire creation. The Imams can bring the dead back to life. No knowledge of the heavens and the earth is hidden from them.

* THE INTERPOLATION OF THE NOBLE QURAN

The Quran is incomplete and distorted in its present form. This tenet had been explicitly propounded by the classical scholars of Shiaism, but frugally denied by the contemporary scholars.

* VILIFICATION AND APOSTASY OF THE SAHABAH (R.A)

The Sahabah were guilty of willfully distorting and corrupting the Deen of Muhammad (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam). They turned renegade after the demise of Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam) except the immediate household of Nabi (SallALLAHo Alayhi Wasallam).

* THE PERMISSIBILITY OF MUT’A

* VIRTUES OF TAQIYA

Islam and Shiaism are two parallel streams of thought that can never converge. They are as distinct from each other, as is Islam to the Ahl-e-Kitaab. To ignore these differences is to ignore the stark reality.

The often repeated hallowed call for "Muslim Unity" simply serves as a smokescreen, behind which SHIA missionaries penetrate Muslim societies. Any attempt to resist this imposition is branded as "divisive". Would it be divisive to protect Islam from a sect that inherently debases the Quran, the Ambiya and the Sahabah? Unity can only be forged on the basis of Aqeedah (belief). To label these differences as ‘hair splitting issues’ is to undermine the sanctity of the Quran, the Ambiya and the Sahabah unity at the cost of the Quran is tantamount to blasphemy.

The constitution of our country guarantees religious freedom. The SHIAs therefore have the right to propagate their beliefs. However, they need to come out of the closet and do so under the banner of Shiaism.

[Ramadhan]

A Muslim must accept that Al Qur'an is the words of Allah, and as Allah has stated clearly in the Qur'an that Allah Himself will preserve it, then a muslim must also without a shadow of a doubt accept that Al Qur'an is not altered.
This is also has been supported by the numerous facts that the Qur'an printed todays is exactly the same as that recited by Rasulullah and compiled during the time of the Shahabah.

From this thread it is also clear that soloqi is here not for the discussion. I don't know what his motive is, but it is obviously not a good one.

[Tony]

Maybe hes a n atheist returned in the guise of something even more peculiar