Atheist Camp? Organised Religion??

[Zafran]

salaam

an intresting article about Dawkins supporting a atheist camp for children - the Question now is Atheism becoming organised movement??? like a religion?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/p...-believer.html

peace

[AntiKarateKid]

salaam

an intresting article about Dawkins suppotring a atheist camp for children - the Question now is Atheism becoming organised movemnet??? like a religion?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/p...-believer.html

peace

Careful. I implied something like this in my last thread and it seemed to drive them utterly berzerk.

[Zafran]

Careful. I implied something like this in my last thread and it seemed to drive them utterly berzerk.

It just a question specfically focusing on what Dawkins is trying to do.

[glo]

I think the interesting question is why do atheists feel the need to start specifically atheist holiday camps for children?
After all, there are many 'non-religious' camps around, which advocate an interest in nature, activities etc, without any religious undertones.

Is it a backlash against 'religious' groups and 'religious' holiday camps, I wonder?

It would be interesting to hear some atheist voices in this thread (as long as they don't get shouted down ...)

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[The_Prince]

i wanna go to this camp, and start arguing with the teachers.

[- Qatada -]

Dawkins argues that 'No God' = Fact. The funny thing is thats an unproven statement.

[ragdollcat1982]

i wanna go to this camp, and start arguing with the teachers.

Me too me too!! The purpose of these camps is to indoctrinate children in the religion of Atheism. Hypocritical me thinks.

[barrio79]

Mr Dawkins is what I would call a radical athist, there are very few, but the professor is the poster child for what imho atheism is not and shouldn't be.

I think you will find that Dawkins is not that radical at all in fact some think he is very meek and mild..



quote:
Originally Posted by The_Prince
i wanna go to this camp, and start arguing with the teachers.
Me too me too!! The purpose of these camps is to indoctrinate children in the religion of Atheism. Hypocritical me thinks.
__________________

It would certainly be hypocritical to accuse some one of indoctrination of children and then advocate that they should be allowed to follow the same course but only as they feel it is in a worthy cause.

But i think you will find that all humans are indoctrinated from birth , it just depends upon the randomness of ones birth circumstances that dictates the style and type of indoctrination one receives..
.

[AntiKarateKid]

I think you will find that Dawkins is not that radical at all in fact some think he is very meek and mild..



quote:
Originally Posted by The_Prince
i wanna go to this camp, and start arguing with the teachers.
Me too me too!! The purpose of these camps is to indoctrinate children in the religion of Atheism. Hypocritical me thinks.
__________________

It would certainly be hypocritical to accuse some one of indoctrination of children and then advocate that they should be allowed to follow the same course but only as they feel it is in a worthy cause.

But i think you will find that all humans are indoctrinated from birth , it just depends upon the randomness of ones birth circumstances that dictates the style and type of indoctrination one receives..
.

Children aren't born atheist. Recent academics, and common sense, have shown that.

[barrio79]

Children aren't born atheist. Recent academics, and common sense, have shown that.

All children are born innocent . It is the education or teachings or indoctrination or brain washing or other techniques that they encounter as they move through life that determines what belief system they will follow.

[AntiKarateKid]

All children are born innocent . It is the education or teachings or indoctrination or brain washing or other techniques that they encounter as they move through life that determines what belief system they will follow.

"Innocent"? Is that a belief? Like I said before, it has been shown that children and theists at default.

[barrio79]

"Innocent"? Is that a belief? Like I said before, it has been shown that children and theists at default.

I don't know that I fully understand this post could you expand

like where it is "shown" and what does " at default " mean

[Trumble]

I don't know that I fully understand this post could you expand

like where it is "shown" and what does " at default " mean

He is claiming rather too much for some, still interesting, empirical research that suggests children have a natural tendency to assign teleological (be it involving God, gods, nature spirits or whatever) explanations rather than naturalistic explanations to what they experience. These tendencies are supposed to be there there before they could have been learned - tests were done on both American (primarily religious parents) and British (primarily non-religious parents) kids and the results were much the same.

No doubt a suitable Google search will throw out some references.

[AntiKarateKid]

I don't know that I fully understand this post could you expand

like where it is "shown" and what does " at default " mean

There is a thread floating around somewhere here which links to an scientific article published by someone. I forget the details but you can just use search.

[Muezzin]

I've deleted posts which discuss individuals rather than the article.

[KAding]

An atheist summer camp is a bit weird, but it should certainly be possible. IMHO it is best to let children be children and not overwhelm them with pro-God or anti-God thinking too much. Rather, they should be allowed to make their own choice when they grow older.

Btw, it doesn't sound like the author in the original article is being very serious. Surely he doesn't expect children to actually become "pedantic, humourless, eight-year-old mini-Dawkins" :D. He's clearly just having some fun on Dawkins behalf.

To answer the original question on whether an "atheist camp" amounts to "organized religion". I don't see how you could reach that conclusion. It is organized yes. No one has ever claimed atheists can't organize themselves in associations and whatnot. Whether they are or are not "organized" has nothing to do with whether atheism can or cannot be considered a "religion". You can have religion without organization and organizations or movements without religion.

[KAding]

Me too me too!! The purpose of these camps is to indoctrinate children in the religion of Atheism. Hypocritical me thinks.

If you define a belief in "rational scepticism and "sessions in moral philosophy and evolutionary biology" as religion, then yes. But to do that you have to define the concept of religion so that it does not have any super-natural elements, in the form of God or afterlife. I just don't see the point of that. You essentially reduce it to "faith" and "belief". And we already have words for that, namely "faith" and "belief" :p.

If your argument is that Dawkins-like "atheism" is a religion because it is based on faith in some kind of doctrine (in this case rationalism), then we run into the problem that a lot of ideologies end up being classified as religions. Is Marxism a religion, because of its belief in dialectical materialism? Is liberalism, with its belief in personal liberties a religion? If not, why not? They are organized, they are to an extend based on some kind of fundamental belief in the course or history or the best way to organize society. And then we haven't even taken into account that these ideologies, like atheism, claim to be based on scientific research and not divine sources like real religions. IMHO watering down religion to include all these differences serves no purpose whatsoever, except to score some rhetorical points.

[Zafran]

Marxism, Liberalism, capitalism and other ism created in the modern era are Ideologies. Some Athiests you talk to hate the idea of orgainised movements - thats exaclty what Dawkins is trying to do.

[Hamayun]

If you strip all the fancy jargon, Atheism is a religion based on beliefs not facts.


Peace :)

[Muezzin]

In a completely non-religious, non-atheistic, non-blah-blah context, this camp sounds pretty crappy.

I don't think kids really want to go to summer camp to have philosophical debates. Man, fat camps seem like they'd have a better turnout, and hardly any of the kids who attend are there by choice.

Kids want to have fun in the great outdoors, go swimming and canoening, and play 'tag', 'hide and seek', and 'escape the fat camp'.

[جوري]

In a completely non-religious, non-atheistic, non-blah-blah context, this camp sounds pretty crappy.

I don't think kids really want to go to summer camp to have philosophical debates. Man, fat camps seem like they'd have a better turnout, and hardly any of the kids who attend are there by choice.

Kids want to have fun in the great outdoors, go swimming and canoening, and play 'tag', 'hide and seek', and 'escape the fat camp'.

rofl that made me laugh.. it reminded me of a dear member long departed who wrote the book on splitting the zero, kept boasting that his granddaughter understands how to divide the zero perfectly thanks to his book.. I got an image of 'girl interrupted'
I imagine he'd have paid for her to enter that camp.. :D

[Trumble]

If you strip all the fancy jargon, Atheism is a religion based on beliefs not facts.

Atheism IS a belief, not a 'religion based on beliefs'. It is not a religion at all.

In a completely non-religious, non-atheistic, non-blah-blah context, this camp sounds pretty crappy.

Yup. :D

As for 'this camp' though, a little Googling reveals that Camp Quest was originally an American idea (or at least an idea of Americans), and that there are six such camps in the US the first being opened in 1996. I can only assume that they have been successful else they wouldn't be expanding to the UK.

[Hamayun]

Atheism IS a belief, not a 'religion based on beliefs'. It is not a religion at all.

People often resort to dressing Atheism up with fancy words.

You identify yourself as a person belonging to a certain belief system... to me that sounds very much like a religion.

[KAding]

People often resort to dressing Atheism up with fancy words.

You identify yourself as a person belonging to a certain belief system... to me that sounds very much like a religion.

So any belief system is a religion?

[Trumble]

People often resort to dressing Atheism up with fancy words.

You identify yourself as a person belonging to a certain belief system... to me that sounds very much like a religion.

That is hardly surprising as, in fact, I identify myself as a Buddhist and Buddhism certainly IS a religion!

The only 'dressing up' is being done by yourself. The definition of atheism is quite simple, with no 'fancy words' at all. It is simply "the doctrine or belief that there is no God".

[GuestFellow]

Atheist camp O_o

Sounds scary. I get the feeling kids are going to be brainwashed. Isn't the point of camping to have fun? Are kids even interested in whether God exists or not? Doesn't sound fun...

[ghengis]

wow. an athiest camp

good for them i suppose :)

it would be like butlins :)

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
What does one do at an athiest camp anyway? I'm being serious here because I honestly don't know. Has anyone been to one? Where there any bouncy castles?

[Trumble]

:sl:
What does one do at an athiest camp anyway? I'm being serious here because I honestly don't know. Has anyone been to one? Where there any bouncy castles?

Looking at both the US (there have actually been Camp Quest camps in the US for over a decade, in six locations) and UK websites I'm still not sure. Picking the Minnesota brochure pretty much at random they seem to use the facilities of an enviromental centre that has sports facilities, nature trails and all the usual stuff.

The whole thing seems to have a humanist background rather than an 'atheist' one per se (not all atheists are humanists).

[aamirsaab]

Looking at both the US (there have actually been Camp Quest camps in the US for over a decade, in six locations) and UK websites I'm still not sure. Picking the Minnesota brochure pretty much at random they seem to use the facilities of an enviromental centre that has sports facilities, nature trails and all the usual stuff.

The whole thing seems to have a humanist background rather than an 'atheist' one per se (not all atheists are humanists).

From the link it appears to be like any other camp, but am still baffled as to why they call it secular or whatnot (I mean, apart from the ''encourage critical thinking'' and ''coming to your own conclusion'' bit). Thanks for the info/link anyway.

P.s; if anyone has been or knows someone who has been to an athiest camp, could that person please provide details on what exactly one does in such camp? For my own curiosity.

p.p.s; there was no bouncy castle offered in trumble's link!

[Trumble]

there was no bouncy castle offered in trumble's link!

Now be fair.. after a run of accidents with kids bouncing off them, I think it just became impossible to get public liability insurance... imsad

[ghengis]

cool!

mummy mummy can i go to the athiest camp with my friends!!

they do orienteering and play tennis indoors!! LOL hahaha\

( an exegesis on my previous butlins joke :) )

[Pygoscelis]

"Atheist Camp" sounds like a stupid idea.

I looked it up and read some of the history. It would appear to be a backlash reaction to all the "Christian Camps" that prop up in the USA. I suppose it makes some sense to have an atheist camp in the bible belt but I don't understand the point of it somewhere like the UK.

[Trumble]

I suppose it makes some sense to have an atheist camp in the bible belt but I don't understand the point of it somewhere like the UK.

It filled all it's places quick enough, so obviously somebody disagrees with you. It does seem odd, though; as no summer camp in the UK would have any religious content anyway unless it was actually set up specifically as a religious camp.

[glo]

The Invisible Unicorn Challenge is an interesting one, and perhaps the greatest indicator of an atheist slant to this camp - after all summer activities, sports and nature/science explorations in themselves are just pretty neutral activities.

The emphasis on critical thinking is epitomised by a test called the Invisible Unicorn Challenge. Children will be told by camp leaders that the area around their tents is inhabited by two unicorns.

The activities of these creatures, of which there will be no physical evidence, will be regularly discussed by organisers, yet the children will be asked to prove that the unicorns do not exist.

Anyone who manages to prove this will win a £10 note - which features an image of Charles Darwin, the father of evolutionary theory - signed by Dawkins, a former professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-atheists.html

I think the point of the exercise is to demonstrate that the non-existence of an invisible entitiy cannot be proven ... so Dawkins may well get to keep his tenner.

[Pygoscelis]

Seems so. I like this exercise actually. Challenge children to think critically.