Is God proud of His work?

[Great I am not]

Is God proud of His work?

You should know that I do not ever expect God to return at some end time because I see His judgment at the beginning of our birth in Genesis as the only judgment that he need’s render.

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

This very good included all that is, including sin, evil and the woes that were to afflict us, without which we could not develop our moral sense.

To have Him return, red faced, to fix a perfect world is beyond my definition of God. He gets things right the first time, every time.

I believe that when we left the garden we did so with God being proud of His perfect works and not ashamed that He had started us off on the wrong foot, so to speak, from the beginning of our journey.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

I know that many think of Genesis as the fall of man. This is false.
Man came out of Genesis only after the development of the moral sense that comes from the knowledge of good and evil.

God wanted man to have a moral sense and insured that this would happen by making sure that the talking snake/Satan was there to draw Eve out of any lethargy or laziness of mind and would be lead in the right direction.

I take the advice of the Pope and read the Bible allegorically and see Genesis as a right of passage for all humans from a state of innocence in the home/garden to a search for moral values in the greater society/talking snake.

It is this same society, with it’s differing values that hone our moral sense. It also draws us to sin. As God wants.

Why does God want us to sin?

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


New Jerusalem
9 The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance.

If we must all come to repentance then clearly we must all sin.
God makes this easy by creating us all with a sinning nature.

It is God’s will that all repent and none be lost and it must be so, if God’s will is supreme.

To think otherwise is to think that God’s will can be thwarted.
If it is then it is not God’s will at all.

So to those who await a second or third judgment from God, forget that silly notion.

He told us it was a good beginning and from good beginnings come good endings.
We are all to be saved which ends the notion of a hell. If you think about hell for just a moment, it is clear from a moral standpoint, that God would not ever invent or create such a place. It would be admitting that He has failed in saving all of us. This is against His will and must be a false interpretation of scripture.


Do you think that God is proud of His creations, or, do you think He will return in shame to -fix- His perfect works?

Does the God of Islam also have to return or does He also need a hell for His mistakes?

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

Does the God of Islam also have to return or does He also need a hell for His mistakes?

Read the Quran and research more about Islam.

[Muezzin]

Read the Quran and research more about Islam.

To which I can but add Christian beliefs and Islamic beliefs are not equivalent.

[sur]

Is God proud of His work?

YES. One of HIS names is "Al-Mutakabbir" meaning "The Proud" which is given in bible as "my GOD is a jealous GOD". "jealous" being little mistranslation in my opinion

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

This very good included all that is, including sin, evil and the woes that were to afflict us, without which we could not develop our moral sense.

u r WRONG. This verse talks of structural universe that HE made. It does not include evil/sins etc. & by "very good" it means that creation was perfect as it really is. Look at how this universe is sustaining & look at life forms how well & intricately they r created.

To have Him return, red faced, to fix a perfect world is beyond my definition of God. He gets things right the first time, every time.

HE made a plan. That was to create creatures with "free=will" & then test them by giving them "limited" free-hand uptil a certain period of time.(GOD knows better) Now HE is not going to "re-turn" until that alloted time-period is over, that's when day-of-judgement would be set up.

.....God wanted man to have a moral sense and insured that this would happen by making sure that the talking snake/Satan was there to draw Eve out of any lethargy or laziness of mind........
Why does God want us to sin?

answered above

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


New Jerusalem
9 The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance..........
........ It would be admitting that He has failed in saving all of us. This is against His will and must be a false interpretation of scripture.

HE did not fail. ur thinking is result of ur misunderstanding. read above HE is just waiting patiently till that allocated time-period is over. HE is testing HIS creature with free-will that they must repent & come back to HIM & be humble & submissive in front of HIM.



As any worldly king would want ppl to be submissive in front of him, why can't THE KING of the universe "Al-Malik" want the same....!!! HE wants HIS free-willed & intelligent creature to use their free-will & intelligence to appreciate HIM as THE KING... &... give HIM the due respect.

Do you think that God is proud of His creations, or, do you think He will return in shame to -fix- His perfect works?

Part of HIS plan is to guide "free-willed & intelligent" creation back to right path by sending "messengers & prophets" time to time.


HE, as i said above, is NOT ashamed of anything. HIS creation of freewilled-&-intelligent creature is perfect. Now this free-willed creature used it's free-will to disobey GOD, & does NOT uses it's intelligence to apprehend HIM..... that not HIS error.... that's freely chosen path of this free-willed creature....

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[Great I am not]

To which I can but add Christian beliefs and Islamic beliefs are not equivalent.

True but they have some common themes. Heaven, hell, repentance sexual discrimination etc.

Further, there are hard, medium and soft Muslims. I want all views.

Vatican II tried to see the common ground. If you prefer to accentuate the differences well------

Regards
DL

[جوري]

there are no hard, medium or soft Muslims. you are either a good Muslim or you are bad. Also sexual discrimination is your view, rather than have a long winded discussion simply use the search feature on the status of women in Islam.

Pls refrain from speaking on my behalf or other Muslim sister's.

[Great I am not]

YES. One of HIS names is "Al-Mutakabbir" meaning "The Proud" which is given in bible as "my GOD is a jealous GOD". "jealous" being little mistranslation in my opinion

u r WRONG. This verse talks of structural universe that HE made. It does not include evil/sins etc. & by "very good" it means that creation was perfect as it really is. Look at how this universe is sustaining & look at life forms how well & intricately they r created.


HE made a plan. That was to create creatures with "free=will" & then test them by giving them "limited" free-hand uptil a certain period of time.(GOD knows better) Now HE is not going to "re-turn" until that alloted time-period is over, that's when day-of-judgement would be set up.



answered above


HE did not fail. ur thinking is result of ur misunderstanding. read above HE is just waiting patiently till that allocated time-period is over. HE is testing HIS creature with free-will that they must repent & come back to HIM & be humble & submissive in front of HIM.



As any worldly king would want ppl to be submissive in front of him, why can't THE KING of the universe "Al-Malik" want the same....!!! HE wants HIS free-willed & intelligent creature to use their free-will & intelligence to appreciate HIM as THE KING... &... give HIM the due respect.


Part of HIS plan is to guide "free-willed & intelligent" creation back to right path by sending "messengers & prophets" time to time.


HE, as i said above, is NOT ashamed of anything. HIS creation of freewilled-&-intelligent creature is perfect. Now this free-willed creature used it's free-will to disobey GOD, & does NOT uses it's intelligence to apprehend HIM..... that not HIS error.... that's freely chosen path of this free-willed creature....

Well, evil was in the garden in the sixth bay as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. it is hard to see how evil could have been created later when the knowledge of it was already there.

As to your reliance on free will.

God does not offer us free will. He offers us an ultimatum to do as He commands or go to hell. He is a dictator, not a democratic leader.

If He though that our free will was important then He would not have been killing us all over the old testament and that includes Sodom and Noah's genocidal flood.

Where was man's free will to live at that time?

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

[aamirsaab]

...

As to your reliance on free will.

God does not offer us free will. He offers us an ultimatum to do as He commands or go to hell. He is a dictator, not a democratic leader.

You (like many athiests) always neglect the carrot, why?

If you do as God has commanded, it is beneficial for you IN THIS LIFE. If you disobey His commands, it is bad for you IN THIS LIFE. Recall the numerous analogies given to you in the paradise and wealth thread in relation to carrot and stick approaches.

Or, if you are the lazy type: click here and scroll down to posts 78 onwards (half-way down the page).

If He though that our free will was important then He would not have been killing us all over the old testament and that includes Sodom and Noah's genocidal flood.

Where was man's free will to live at that time?

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Warnings and signs were given to those people involved and they suffered because they didn't take heed. Going back to Gubblenucker's truck analogy in the other thread: you cannot complain about being hit by the truck if you didn't bother to listen to the honking or see the headlights.

[- Qatada -]

Well, evil was in the garden in the sixth bay as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. it is hard to see how evil could have been created later when the knowledge of it was already there.

Tree of knowledge? What tree of knowledge?

All that was - was a tree which God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from. Whereas He let them eat and take benefit from the rest of the entire garden.

So how is that oppression?

It was simply a 'No Go Zone'.

As to your reliance on free will.

God does not offer us free will. He offers us an ultimatum to do as He commands or go to hell. He is a dictator, not a democratic leader.

God knows the creation better than the creation knows itself.

He gives us good, and rewards that with good, you do evil - you get punished for your own evil. That is justice, not oppression.

If He though that our free will was important then He would not have been killing us all over the old testament and that includes Sodom and Noah's genocidal flood.

In regard to your issue on Noah's flood, who said i believe that ALL of humanity was flooded? According to Islamic sources, those who rejected Noah and Prophet Lot, and oppressed him and his followers - they were the ones who were punished. That shows it was Justice on the part of God to get rid of the oppressors.


This is why God tells us in the Qur'an continuously;

And We did not oppress them at all, but they themselves were unjust. [Qur'an 43:76]

[Muezzin]

True but they have some common themes.

Yet not enough to criticise them on exactly the same fronts, as if they were equivalent. I mean, it is possible for one to do that, but it would expose one's lack of research.

Heaven, hell, repentance

Yes, these are common to all Abrahamic faiths, but all Abrahamic faiths are not equivalent.

sexual discrimination etc.

Search for 'Status of Women in Islam'.

Further, there are hard, medium and soft Muslims. I want all views.

You can have all the views you want. If you keep treating Islamic and Christian beliefs as identical to disguise your lack of research of the former, you'll be running into the same brick walls. I.e all Muslims (hard, medium, soft, or runny) will say 'Uh, Islam doesn't teach that. Christianity does.'

Vatican II tried to see the common ground. If you prefer to accentuate the differences well------

Peaceful coexistence is absolutely possible, and indeed essential, despite differences. In a way, it's because of our differences that we must coexist.

I'm not sure I like your (somewhat sanctimonious) implication that the act of simply pointing out that the teachings of one religion are different to another amounts to stirring up trouble. I'd appreciate it if you refrain from putting words in my mouth, or any other member's mouth, in future.

[AntiKarateKid]

If according to atheists we are just a bag of biological matter driven by a series of chemical reactions that started when we were born, how exactly do we have free will?

[Great I am not]

You (like many athiests) always neglect the carrot, why?

I am not an atheist. I am a believer but not in your dictator God.
I do not ignore the carrot but if i chose to eat grapes then I should not have to go to hell for my choice.

If you do as God has commanded, it is beneficial for you IN THIS LIFE. If you disobey His commands, it is bad for you IN THIS LIFE. Recall the numerous analogies given to you in the paradise and wealth thread in relation to carrot and stick approaches.

If I only do what God commands then I am a slave. Where is free choice then?

Or, if you are the lazy type: click here and scroll down to posts 78 onwards (half-way down the page).



Warnings and signs were given to those people involved and they suffered because they didn't take heed. Going back to Gubblenucker's truck analogy in the other thread: you cannot complain about being hit by the truck if you didn't bother to listen to the honking or see the headlights.

What recognizable signs were given to the children and babies.
Were all tha animals able to also read these signs? What evil was found in them as well as the children and babies?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Tree of knowledge? What tree of knowledge?

All that was - was a tree which God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from. Whereas He let them eat and take benefit from the rest of the entire garden.

So how is that oppression?

It was simply a 'No Go Zone'.

Was the tree not the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
the same good and evil that is required for man to gain a moral sense.

If there is a no go zone then where is man's free will?

God knows the creation better than the creation knows itself.

He gives us good, and rewards that with good, you do evil - you get punished for your own evil. That is justice, not oppression.

To be as God's knowing good and evil.
Do things my way or burn is not free will. It is a dictator oppressing his people.
A mugger give the same choice. Give your money or die. Oppression.

In regard to your issue on Noah's flood, who said i believe that ALL of humanity was flooded? According to Islamic sources, those who rejected Noah and Prophet Lot, and oppressed him and his followers - they were the ones who were punished. That shows it was Justice on the part of God to get rid of the oppressors.

If That was God's policy then, then it should be His policy now. It is not.

This is why God tells us in the Qur'an continuously;

And We did not oppress them at all, but they themselves were unjust. [Qur'an 43:76]

I have no problem with the punishment of evil. I do have a problem with the slaughter of innocent children. babies and animals.

If you do not, then you have a problem.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Yet not enough to criticise them on exactly the same fronts, as if they were equivalent. I mean, it is possible for one to do that, but it would expose one's lack of research.


Yes, these are common to all Abrahamic faiths, but all Abrahamic faiths are not equivalent.


Search for 'Status of Women in Islam'.

I did. In Afghanistan. I found a rape law. I did in Iran and found many women fighting for the freedom that men enjoy.
I looked elsewhere and found Muslins hiding the flesh of woman instead of accepting the challenge of thinking of flesh in a moral way. Men driven by fear looks like to me.

You can have all the views you want. If you keep treating Islamic and Christian beliefs as identical to disguise your lack of research of the former, you'll be running into the same brick walls. I.e all Muslims (hard, medium, soft, or runny) will say 'Uh, Islam doesn't teach that. Christianity does.'

I do not think that Islam and Christianity have the same laws. I try to accentuate the common ones and you seek the differences.

Peaceful coexistence is absolutely possible, and indeed essential, despite differences. In a way, it's because of our differences that we must coexist.

.

Then all religions should stop with the my way or burn attitude.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

If according to atheists we are just a bag of biological matter driven by a series of chemical reactions that started when we were born, how exactly do we have free will?

Freedom cannot be given. Freedom must be taken.

We are all free to follow the rules of our societies. We are not free to break them unless we take the freedom to do so.

Regards
DL

[aamirsaab]

I am not an atheist. I am a believer but not in your dictator God.
I do not ignore the carrot but if i chose to eat grapes then I should not have to go to hell for my choice.

If you don't ignore the carrot why do you always mention the stick? And if you are afraid of the stick, good, so am I. That's why I avoid it, You should too (again, for your own benefit IN THIS LIFE!)

If I only do what God commands then I am a slave. Where is free choice then?

Same as when a doctor tells you eat junk food and you die, eat healthy food and you live.

Again, if you weren't so hung up about the stick, you'd have no problem with this ''ultimatum''.

What recognizable signs were given to the children and babies.
Were all tha animals able to also read these signs? What evil was found in them as well as the children and babies?

Regards
DL

Children are automatically granted paradise if they die before reaching puberty as they are considered innocent.

Now that we have your rhetoric dealt with, can we please move onto the topic at hand?

[Muezzin]

I did. In Afghanistan. I found a rape law.

Really? What was it?

I did in Iran and found many women fighting for the freedom that men enjoy.

I’m not going to open the sectarian can of worms that is Iran’s version of Islamic law. Suffice it to say that the situation is far more complicated than you’re making out.

I looked elsewhere and found Muslins hiding the flesh of woman instead of accepting the challenge of thinking of flesh in a moral way. Men driven by fear looks like to me.

Looks like you did not do the research to me.

Because if you did, you’d see that the concept of the awrah (the minimum area of the body that must be covered) in Islam derives from Islamic law, not men wanting to run away from temptation. The whole issue is about public nudity – for instance, in developed countries, whether they’re Muslim majority or not, women generally cannot go around topless without causing legal trouble, but men can. Does this mean the men are wrapping away their temptresses?

I do not think that Islam and Christianity have the same laws. I try to accentuate the common ones and you seek the differences.

You seek to accentuate the common laws by quoting/distorting Christian scripture and implying it must necessarily apply to all Abrahamic faiths?

The very crux of your first post on this thread is about God ‘returning’. Islamically, there is no such concept because He never 'left'. As for whether He is proud of His work, Islamically, we simply cannot say.

I also fail to see how that is ‘accentuating’ a difference. What do you expect in a Comparative Religion forum?

Then all religions should stop with the my way or burn attitude.

1)You were the one saying the Pope was trying to make peace between religions by celebrating similarities.

2)‘All religions’ do not have the ‘my way or burn’ attitude. So that’s either a lie to further an agenda or evidence of further lack of research.

3)As far as the religions that do say ‘if you don’t worship God, you risk burning in Hell’ are concerned, that is a fact. Just as far as a doctor is concerned when telling an obese patient he must adjust his diet or risk dying, that is a fact. If the person on the receiving end doesn’t like hearing it, or doesn’t believe it, they are free to ignore it.

4)Abrahamic religions do not give carte blanche to their followers to abuse non-followers on the grounds that the non-followers risk going to hell. Hence the Islamic teachings of ‘whomsoever God guides, none can misguide and whomsoever God misguides none can guide’ and ‘to you your way, to me mine’. Which leads me to

5) Abrahamic faiths do indeed preach peaceful coexistence.

[Great I am not]

If you don't ignore the carrot why do you always mention the stick? And if you are afraid of the stick, good, so am I. That's why I avoid it, You should too (again, for your own benefit IN THIS LIFE!)



Same as when a doctor tells you eat junk food and you die, eat healthy food and you live.

I hae a choice in following my doctors advise or not. If I do not, he does not impose any penalty other than the natural one. Hell is not natural.

Again, if you weren't so hung up about the stick, you'd have no problem with this ''ultimatum''.

I am not hung up on it. I just recognize it as an ultimatum. not freedom is it when it is there.

Children are automatically granted paradise if they die before reaching puberty as they are considered innocent.

So the day they turn to puberty then they were automatically evil. Ok.

Now that we have your rhetoric dealt with, can we please move onto the topic at hand?

Go for it.

Regards
DL

[aamirsaab]

I hae a choice in following my doctors advise or not. If I do not, he does not impose any penalty other than the natural one. Hell is not natural.

What does it matter? It's exactly the same argument!

I am not hung up on it. I just recognize it as an ultimatum. not freedom is it when it is there.

Again, it is the same argument. You have freedom not to listen to the doctor just as you have freedom not to listen to God; in either case you get screwed IN THIS LIFE. Which is what I (and pretty much everyone else who has been discussing with you on the matter) have been telling you for the past few days.

So the day they turn to puberty then they were automatically evil. Ok.DL

No, that is not what I said. At puberty, a child is then responsible for their actions in Islam; i.e are applicable for the good deeds vs bad deed scale (like all other adults)

[جوري]

actually as per this fellow's argument of 'Natural' --dying from a pathological state that is self-brought-upon due to life style choices isn't natural, in fact that is why they call it pathological.

Also, I am not sure why the threat of hell matters to folks who don't believe in it?
if it is very matter of fact to you, then you should state your grievances on the day of recompense not on a public forum..

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I think God has done what he has intended to do -


and i think his justice on the day of judgement will be very perfect :)




PEACE



ps: heard about heaven? :D gotta be proud of that huh :)


heard about hell? gotta be proud of that huh :D ! - dont act like u dont want hitler there, JUST DONT !

[Great I am not]

What does it matter? It's exactly the same argument!


Again, it is the same argument. You have freedom not to listen to the doctor just as you have freedom not to listen to God; in either case you get screwed IN THIS LIFE. Which is what I (and pretty much everyone else who has been discussing with you on the matter) have been telling you for the past few days.


No, that is not what I said. At puberty, a child is then responsible for their actions in Islam; i.e are applicable for the good deeds vs bad deed scale (like all other adults)

Our main problem is that of punishment and hell.

Let's see if we can agree on hell as a moral place that God would create. if we cannot agree on this then we will not agree on anything.

I do get yes or no answer to this so I hope the moderator will allow me to ask and you to reply with just the one post. In that way we will not sidetrack the OP.

Is it just for a man to be able to do small sins for only 120 years without remorse and then have to spend 1200000000000000000000+ years in hell?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

actually as per this fellow's argument of 'Natural' --dying from a pathological state that is self-brought-upon due to life style choices isn't natural, in fact that is why they call it pathological.

Also, I am not sure why the threat of hell matters to folks who don't believe in it?
if it is very matter of fact to you, then you should state your grievances on the day of recompense not on a public forum..

It maters because if the concept of eternal hell is immoral then believers in hell should recognize it is immoral and not interpret what the concept has become as good and return more to the older concept of hell being the city dump.

This would also likely change their views of Satan.

Regards
DL

[aamirsaab]

Our main problem is that of punishment and hell.

Let's see if we can agree on hell as a moral place that God would create. if we cannot agree on this then we will not agree on anything.

I do get yes or no answer to this so I hope the moderator will allow me to ask and you to reply with just the one post. In that way we will not sidetrack the OP.

Yes it is moral for hell to exist just as it is moral for heaven to exist.

Is it just for a man to be able to do small sins for only 120 years without remorse and then have to spend 1200000000000000000000+ years in hell?

Regards
DL

Whether or not you spend xyz years in hell is not up to me, it is up to Allah. And by the same token, Allah can grant you paradise whenever He feels as He is The Most Merciful.

Secondly, my previous example of disobeying the doctor's order still answers this. You might not like the outcome but that's fine - you aren't suppose to like it,

Thirdly, you believe in hell right? Me too and God-willing you'll go to paradise as that belief would make you a follower of God.

[جوري]

that problem is what you consider a 'small' sin.. whose baseline are we using?

[جوري]

It maters because if the concept of eternal hell is immoral then believers in hell should recognize it is immoral and not interpret what the concept has become as good and return more to the older concept of hell being the city dump.

This would also likely change their views of Satan.

Regards
DL

What does the above mean?
hell isn't immoral, hell houses the immorals .. I don't think the view on that will change anytime soon!

all the best

[AntiKarateKid]

Freedom cannot be given. Freedom must be taken.

We are all free to follow the rules of our societies. We are not free to break them unless we take the freedom to do so.

Regards
DL

No. I am talking about free-will. For atheists, we have no higher being or soul or any spiritual aspect. This means that all we are are just a bunch of more complex animals still dominated by the chemical processes that control our body.

You choosing to typing here is an illusion. A series of chemical reactions in your brain prompted you to choose to type here. Active-will had nothing to do with it.

[Great I am not]

I think God has done what he has intended to do -


and i think his justice on the day of judgement will be very perfect :)

The way I read scripture, God judged man in Genesis. Even with Satan there to tempt Eve, God said that all was good.

I do not think that He needs return just because people will not believe His words.
How often do you think He has to judge us?

PEACE



ps: heard about heaven? :D gotta be proud of that huh :)


heard about hell? gotta be proud of that huh :D ! - dont act like u dont want hitler there, JUST DONT !

Well, I believe this.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If it is God's will that none will be lost then I would think that none will be.
I know that those who like to hate will not like this idea but if God's will cannot be thwarted then we will all meet in heaven.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Yes it is moral for hell to exist just as it is moral for heaven to exist.


Whether or not you spend xyz years in hell is not up to me, it is up to Allah. And by the same token, Allah can grant you paradise whenever He feels as He is The Most Merciful.

Secondly, my previous example of disobeying the doctor's order still answers this. You might not like the outcome but that's fine - you aren't suppose to like it,

Thirdly, you believe in hell right? Me too and God-willing you'll go to paradise as that belief would make you a follower of God.

Actually I do not believe in hell. God does not need it.

But since you do not want to answer my simple question, I guess that we are done. I believe in reciprocity and if you do not want to answer my questions then I will reciprocate.

That is fair play.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

heard about hell? gotta be proud of that huh ! - dont act like u dont want hitler there, JUST DONT !

Its not acting - muslims dont want anyone there - its part of the faith.

no offence dont quote the bible when your talking about Islam. It has very little effect and bearing on muslims.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greatest - you just replied using bible quotes.

I dont believe in the Bible, therefore you get no points with those...

[جوري]

I believe this:

3:133] Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous.

and this:

33:35] For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

5:9] To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward.

all the best

[Zafran]

Greatest - you just replied using bible quotes.

I dont believe in the Bible, therefore you get no points with those...

I know maybe he should go to a christain forum and duke out with them about it.

[Great I am not]

that problem is what you consider a 'small' sin.. whose baseline are we using?

Is it just for a thief to spend eternity in hell with Hitler?

If we have the same answer here then we can compare other areas of justice.

If we cannot agree an a large issue then we will not on anything smaller.


Regards
DL

[Zafran]

Is it just for a thief to spend eternity in hell with Hitler?

how do you know Hitlers in Hell for goodness sake? Your quick to put people in hell but dont want to go there yourself???

[Great I am not]

What does the above mean?
hell isn't immoral, hell houses the immorals .. I don't think the view on that will change anytime soon!

all the best

Are all immorals equal in their immorality?

Is a thief less immoral than a killer?

Is an adulterer less immoral than a thief?

Regards
DL

[aamirsaab]

Actually I do not believe in hell. God does not need it.

But since you do not want to answer my simple question, I guess that we are done. I believe in reciprocity and if you do not want to answer my questions then I will reciprocate.

That is fair play.

Regards
DL

I apologise if I didn't answer your question; I thought I did. Perhaps it needed more explanation, so I wil ltry again:

Is it just for a man to be able to do small sins for only 120 years without remorse and then have to spend 1200000000000000000000+ years in hell?

Regards

Allow me to twist your argument around (in order to make a point about being just as you seem to have a problem with God's system); should a man who has spent 120 years of his life doing small good deeds be granted 120000000+ years in Heaven?

If the answer is yes (which I am sure everyone would agree with!), then the same should apply to those who have done bad. Otherwise, what point would there in being good if bad people are rewarded just as much as good people are - surely that would be a un-just and unfair system, no? If a man who has commited no sins all his life is given the same reward as a man who has sinned all his life, would that be just to the good man?

Even with that being said, Allah is quite capable of taking someone from Hell and putting them into Paradise so surely that is the absolute justice?

[Great I am not]

No. I am talking about free-will. For atheists, we have no higher being or soul or any spiritual aspect. This means that all we are are just a bunch of more complex animals still dominated by the chemical processes that control our body.

You choosing to typing here is an illusion. A series of chemical reactions in your brain prompted you to choose to type here. Active-will had nothing to do with it.

Are you saying that you did not freely chose to reply to my last post?

If so then how did I prompt your chemistry to do so?

BTW, I made a conscious decision to reply to yours. I used my free will.

Regards
DL

[جوري]

Are all immorals equal in their immorality?

Is a thief less immoral than a killer?

Is an adulterer less immoral than a thief?

Regards
DL

that is an excellent question indeed.. as there are levels of religiosity, there are levels of sin.. not all are created equal.. hence:

The Message of the Quran

Muhammad Asad

AL-ZALZALAH (THE EARTHQUAKE)

THE NINETY-NINTH SURAH
Total Verses: 8
PERIOD UNCERTAIN

Introduction

MOST PROBABLY revealed in the early part of the Medina period (itqan), although some authorities regard it as a Meccan revelation.

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:

(1) WHEN THE EARTH quakes with her [last] mighty quaking,

(2) and [when] the earth yields up her burdens, 1

(3) and man cries out, "What has happened to her?" -

(4) on that Day will she recount all her tidings,

(5) as thy Sustainer will have inspired her to do! 2

(6) On that Day will all men come forward, cut off from one another, 3 to be shown their [past] deeds.

(7) And so, he who shall have done an atom's weight of good, shall behold it;

(8) and he who shall have done an atom's weight of evil, shall behold it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 I.e., all that was hitherto hidden in it, including the bodies- or the remnants - of the dead.

2 I.e., on the Day of Judgment the earth will bear witness, as it were, to all that has ever been done by man: an explanation given by the Prophet, according to a Tradition on the authority of Abu Hurayrah (quoted by Ibn Hanbal and Tirmidhi).

3 Lit., ''as separate entities" (ashtatan). Cf. 6:94 - "And now, indeed, you have come unto Us in a lonely state, even as We created you in the first instance": thus stressing the individual, untransferable responsibility of every human being.



_______________________

I have always personally marveled at how Christians claim that all that needed be was a belief in jesus having eaten your sins as all that was needed to get to heaven.. people like Anna Nicole Smith and Mother Theresa equal in christ...

hell and heaven have their gates and their levels.. (way before Dante plagiarized it)

all the best

[Great I am not]

Its not acting - muslims dont want anyone there - its part of the faith.

no offence dont quote the bible when your talking about Islam. It has very little effect and bearing on muslims.

I have read many books and find wisdom in most, this includes both the Bible and the Qur'an.

It is hard to judge the Gods if one does not even look at them.

Have you judged your God?
Have you compared Him to others?

Regards
DL

[جوري]

as an addendum to the above.. we don't get to heaven or hell because of our deeds.. if you spent your entire life in prayer and worship you'd not account for your Lord's blessings..
we get there by God's grace and mercy which is the law he assigned unto himself...
your deeds good or bad are negligible in the face of blessings of this life and eternal life!

There are unforgivable cardinal sins -- everything else can be forgiven...
God so tells us in the Quran, he is our cherisher and sustainer ...

[Zafran]

I have read many books and find wisdom in most, this includes both the Bible and the Qur'an.

It is hard to judge the Gods if one does not even look at them.

Have you judged your God?
Have you compared His to others?

Regards
DL

God is the Judge - the greatest of Judgers - God is the all wise - I'm not so why should the dim Judge the all wise.

I have looked at other so called dieties and the Quran gives some serious refuataions to them.

Is your knowledge weak on the Quran because you seem to love the bible far more?

[Great I am not]

Greatest - you just replied using bible quotes.

I dont believe in the Bible, therefore you get no points with those...

I do not believe the Bible literally either but the quotes I used have a logical position that any God of love would take.

I do not look for points. I look for good debate and reason.

Does your Bible indicate the will of your God concerning his love of souls and His desire to not lose any?

We are in comparative religion. Let's compare.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

I believe this:

3:133] Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous.

and this:

33:35] For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

5:9] To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward.

all the best

Religious rhetoric that could be applied and is mimicked by all God's.

I have not seen any humble replies here to date.
I have arrogance and recognize it in most here as well.

Regards
DL

[AntiKarateKid]

Well, I believe this.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If it is God's will that none will be lost then I would think that none will be.
I know that those who like to hate will not like this idea but if God's will cannot be thwarted then we will all meet in heaven.

Regards
DL

You delude yourself only. Have you even read the verses that came before and after Peter 3:9

BEFORE (This speaks of the punishments for disbelief)

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. Peter 3:7

AFTER (this shows what exactly His promise is)

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Peter 3:10

It is obvious that God is affirming the destruction for sinners and disbelievers and promising Judgement Day and the destruction of the earth. Not only have you cherrypicked a verse to placate the delude notion that disbelievers will be in heaven. He wants us to become believers but He wills for the people who don't to be destroyed. He desires that we not sin and gives us guidance but leaves it up to us. He also desires that disbelievers be destroyed.

I had a hard time telling if yours was a joke post or not.

[جوري]

Hazrat Abu Hurairah (Radhiallaho anho) narrated that Rasulullah (Sallallaho alaihe wasallam) has said,

"Almighty Allah says, 'I treat my slave (man) according to his expectations from Me, and I am with him when he remembers me. If he remembers Me in his heart, I remember him in My heart; if he remembers Me in a gathering, I remember him in a better and nobler gathering (i.e. of angels) if he comes closer to Me by one span, I go towards him a cubit's length, if he comes toward Me by a cubit's length, I go towards him an arm's length, and if he walks towards Me, I run unto him."




btw, just so we are on the same level.. I wouldn't compare the bible with the Quran.. if anything at all, perhaps a comparison of ahadith, though they themselves have a strong chain of Isnad that can't be said of the bible and certainly not through dubious characters that god allegedly spoke to after his death which seemed to have abrogated all his old laws!


all the best

[جوري]

Religious rhetoric that could be applied and is mimicked by all God's.

I have not seen any humble replies here to date.
I have arrogance and recognize it in most here as well.

Regards
DL

you asked for comparative passages, I have cemented with both hadith and Quran.. it isn't rhetoric.. it is what you choose to accept or not accept .and there is also your perception and your belifs..

I don't believe there are different gods.. I believe in one God!
The God of Abraham

2:130-And who turns away from the religion of Abrahim but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.



2:132-
And this was the Legacy that Abrahim left to his sons, and so did Ya'qub; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Allah).



2:135-They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abrahim, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."





thus I am not certain what other gods you speak of? if you wish to worship jesus or Uzair or think you are saved or favored because you are this or that, it is your prerogative..

I believe in a Just God, that known no race, or distinction.. one that doesn't self-immolate and abrogate his laws through his nemesis or through dreams of doubting thomases.. one that knows how to pick disciples that will uphold his testament not forsake him three times as he predicted (peter) before the alleged eve of his death.. a God that doesn't forsake but honors, doesn't self-immolate but upholds, doesn't accurse the earth he created for he knew what it bore!



all the best

[Great I am not]

God is the Judge - the greatest of Judgers - God is the all wise - I'm not so why should the dim Judge the all wise.

I have looked at other so called dieties and the Quran gives some serious refuataions to them.

Is your knowledge weak on the Quran because you seem to love the bible far more?

I love no book. That would be idolatry.

It has been 20 years since I read the Qur'an. I have read 8 different Bibles and find some wisdom in all of them.

I see man as having two natures. A political one and a spiritual one.
Man is in his totality, is judged by his philosophy of life. This can come from a political God, so to speak, or a religious God.

Both the political Gods and the religious Gods should be judged by their philosophies.

That is why I ask questions on justice that have so far been ignored.

It is impossible for me to judge then if your God is better than any other.

You say that your God is all wise but do not show His laws.
You say he is the greatest judge without showing His great judgments.
Rhetoric is cheep in any religion.

I came here to see your diamonds and am shown coal.

Regards
DL

[جوري]

I love no book. That would be idolatry.

It has been 20 years since I read the Qur'an. I have read 8 different Bibles and find some wisdom in all of them.

I see man as having two natures. A political one and a spiritual one.
Man is in his totality, is judged by his philosophy of life. This can come from a political God, so to speak, or a religious God.

Both the political Gods and the religious Gods should be judged by their philosophies.

That is why I ask questions on justice that have so far been ignored.

It is impossible for me to judge then if your God is better than any other.

You say that your God is all wise but do not show His laws.
You say he is the greatest judge without showing His great judgments.
Rhetoric is cheep in any religion.

I came here to see your diamonds and am shown coal.

Regards
DL

1-ah but to have 8 of the same book while shelving one on a vine-- that would be? indoctrination

2-man being judged in his totality by his 'spiritual' nature would make him incomplete.. since we weren't created in just a spiritual state.. in fact how unjust of God to create us and not give us the tools by which to live a better life.. carry out justice?

3-Your questions have all been answered. Your dislike of the responses is a matter all together different

4- you speak of rhetoric, yet you haven't shared but the mindless drivel of a man who follows his whim

5- and lastly, imagine how terrible it is for us to assume a philosopher and end up with a bible thumper..

all the best

[Zafran]

just that you dont use any other scripture except the bible - the first post and many that followed by you are full of biblical verses.

Your post actually reminds me of the person who trades a valuable gem thinking its a piece of rock for coal which he believes is a gem........only to find later that the Gem he had traded was always worth more.

peace

[Great I am not]

that is an excellent question indeed.. as there are levels of religiosity, there are levels of sin.. not all are created equal.. hence:

The Message of the Quran

Muhammad Asad

AL-ZALZALAH (THE EARTHQUAKE)

THE NINETY-NINTH SURAH
Total Verses: 8
PERIOD UNCERTAIN

Introduction

MOST PROBABLY revealed in the early part of the Medina period (itqan), although some authorities regard it as a Meccan revelation.

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:

(1) WHEN THE EARTH quakes with her [last] mighty quaking,

(2) and [when] the earth yields up her burdens, 1

(3) and man cries out, "What has happened to her?" -

(4) on that Day will she recount all her tidings,

(5) as thy Sustainer will have inspired her to do! 2

(6) On that Day will all men come forward, cut off from one another, 3 to be shown their [past] deeds.

(7) And so, he who shall have done an atom's weight of good, shall behold it;

(8) and he who shall have done an atom's weight of evil, shall behold it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 I.e., all that was hitherto hidden in it, including the bodies- or the remnants - of the dead.

2 I.e., on the Day of Judgment the earth will bear witness, as it were, to all that has ever been done by man: an explanation given by the Prophet, according to a Tradition on the authority of Abu Hurayrah (quoted by Ibn Hanbal and Tirmidhi).

3 Lit., ''as separate entities" (ashtatan). Cf. 6:94 - "And now, indeed, you have come unto Us in a lonely state, even as We created you in the first instance": thus stressing the individual, untransferable responsibility of every human being.



_______________________

I have always personally marveled at how Christians claim that all that needed be was a belief in jesus having eaten your sins as all that was needed to get to heaven.. people like Anna Nicole Smith and Mother Theresa equal in christ...

hell and heaven have their gates and their levels.. (way before Dante plagiarized it)

all the best

Thanks for all that but you did not answer my question.

Your hell then has different levels. Are those there forever? Is that what your levels are, timing?

The Christian say that once in their hell, there is no getting out forever.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

as an addendum to the above.. we don't get to heaven or hell because of our deeds.. if you spent your entire life in prayer and worship you'd not account for your Lord's blessings..
we get there by God's grace and mercy which is the law he assigned unto himself...
your deeds good or bad are negligible in the face of blessings of this life and eternal life!

There are unforgivable cardinal sins -- everything else can be forgiven...
God so tells us in the Quran, he is our cherisher and sustainer ...

Which are the cardinal sin's?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

You delude yourself only. Have you even read the verses that came before and after Peter 3:9

BEFORE (This speaks of the punishments for disbelief)

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. Peter 3:7

AFTER (this shows what exactly His promise is)

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Peter 3:10

It is obvious that God is affirming the destruction for sinners and disbelievers and promising Judgement Day and the destruction of the earth. Not only have you cherrypicked a verse to placate the delude notion that disbelievers will be in heaven. He wants us to become believers but He wills for the people who don't to be destroyed. He desires that we not sin and gives us guidance but leaves it up to us. He also desires that disbelievers be destroyed.

I had a hard time telling if yours was a joke post or not.

My jokes do not write well.

Is it your view then that it is God's will that some souls be lost to Him?

------------------------------

So you see God creating our natures and souls.
If we then follow our God given natures, they lead us to eternal ****ation.

If God did not want us to follow our natures as given then why not give us the ones that will lead us to heaven instead of hell?

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Hazrat Abu Hurairah (Radhiallaho anho) narrated that Rasulullah (Sallallaho alaihe wasallam) has said,

"Almighty Allah says, 'I treat my slave (man) according to his expectations from Me, and I am with him when he remembers me. If he remembers Me in his heart, I remember him in My heart; if he remembers Me in a gathering, I remember him in a better and nobler gathering (i.e. of angels) if he comes closer to Me by one span, I go towards him a cubit's length, if he comes toward Me by a cubit's length, I go towards him an arm's length, and if he walks towards Me, I run unto him."




btw, just so we are on the same level.. I wouldn't compare the bible with the Quran.. if anything at all, perhaps a comparison of ahadith, though they themselves have a strong chain of Isnad that can't be said of the bible and certainly not through dubious characters that god allegedly spoke to after his death which seemed to have abrogated all his old laws!


all the best

The same rhetoric is in many Bibles. The more you give the more you will receive.
I will give Allah points for being honest with Muslims by naming them slaves. The Christian God covers His slave owner ways by His so called free will of do it my way or burn. An ultimatum and not free will at all.

Regards
DL

[Zafran]

maybe you should go to a christain forum and talk to them about your beef with the bible?

[Great I am not]

1-ah but to have 8 of the same book while shelving one on a vine-- that would be? indoctrination

I have no idea as to what this means.
If you mean that I have a prefference for one of the 8 you would be wrong.

2-man being judged in his totality by his 'spiritual' nature would make him incomplete.. since we weren't created in just a spiritual state.. in fact how unjust of God to create us and not give us the tools by which to live a better life.. carry out justice?

Thwe way I see things, God has given us all we need.

3-Your questions have all been answered. Your dislike of the responses is a matter all together different

They have not.

4- you speak of rhetoric, yet you haven't shared but the mindless drivel of a man who follows his whim

Yes, I am a free thinker talking to those with a slave mentality.

5- and lastly, imagine how terrible it is for us to assume a philosopher and end up with a bible thumper..

all the best

I give the quotes I need to help a point be understood.
I am happy to look at any quote you wish to give. I do like them short though.

I use the K J Bible for discussions. The God of the Bible is not my God. Mine has no name as yet.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

just that you dont use any other scripture except the bible - the first post and many that followed by you are full of biblical verses.

Your post actually reminds me of the person who trades a valuable gem thinking its a piece of rock for coal which he believes is a gem........only to find later that the Gem he had traded was always worth more.

peace

When Constantine bought the Church and Bible, they basically consolidated most of the teachings of the other religions and sects of that day. It is also the one I know best and find it good for discussions.

The Bible God is not my God. I have yet to find a Bible worthy of my God.

Regards
DL

[جوري]

Thanks for all that but you did not answer my question.

The verse testifies that if you do an 'atom's' worth of good or bad deeds you'll see it.. 'atoms' by the way are a modern find.. already mentioned in the Quran centuries ago.. no matter.. it should denote to you that even if you were just a smidgen good you'll be rewarded for it!

Your hell then has different levels. Are those there forever? Is that what your levels are, timing?

Time belongs to God.. yes some people can have a temporary stay in hell, and then come out.

The Christian say that once in their hell, there is no getting out forever.

Regards
DL

well that is what the Christians say, their beliefs are inconsequential to me

Which are the cardinal sin's?

Regards
DL

Kufr and shirk
atheists, polytheists, and those who associate Gods with God or pray to saints etc .

I give the quotes I need to help a point be understood.
I am happy to look at any quote you wish to give. I do like them short though.

I use the K J Bible for discussions. The God of the Bible is not my God. Mine has no name as yet.

Regards
DL

I have spent junior high and high school in catholic school .. for which I was grateful.. I have learned about another religion from their point of view and decided it wasn't for me.. thus you pointing me quotes will avail you naught.. the very basic fulcrum upon which Christianity stands is something I don't accept or will ever believe in, it would be an unfair waste of your time, to have you quoting large passages that mean nothing to me historically or spiritually...

all the best

[Great I am not]

maybe you should go to a christain forum and talk to them about your beef with the bible?

I do on occasion.
They do not believe their Bible.
Have you not noticed that if in one sect, you can only have one wife. If in another sect, you can have as many as you can afford.

Generally speaking, as a religion, Christianity is a house divided against itself. It cannot stand.

Islam seems to be going the same way with different sects and some even preferring secular government over Islamic law.

As a Religionist and believer, I find the overall world trend to secularism to be less than what I would prefer.

Regards
DL

[جوري]

I do on occasion.
They do not believe their Bible.
Have you not noticed that if in one sect, you can only have one wife. If in another sect, you can have as many as you can afford.

Generally speaking, as a religion, Christianity is a house divided against itself. It cannot stand.

Islam seems to be going the same way with different sects and some even preferring secular government over Islamic law.

As a Religionist and believer, I find the overall world trend to secularism to be less than what I would prefer.

Regards
DL

Greetings

85-90% of Muslims are sunni..
the Sunni (85%) and Shi'a (15%).
shia literally means faction, any faction therefore that splits off belongs to that 15%.. they are negligible and not recognized by the majority-- nonetheless unlike with Christianity they use the exact same Quran whatever way they choose to interpret as deviates from proper jurisprudence is their prerogative, but it has no bearing on the whole or the preservation!
I don't think you have a minute understanding of Islam as you allege, it would have been obvious just from the minor things you throw out here and there..

all the best

[Great I am not]

Gossamer skye

I do not blame you for rejecting Christianity.
They are less than Islam at present in my eyes. The Jews have gained my respect since I have begun to speak on some sites. That was a surprise for me.

My blessing is that I know God to be evolving along with mankind. I see His perfection as an evolving perfection that began the moment he began to create and will continue forever.
The perfection time line for God's universe never ends. That means that here and now is as perfect as His systems can produce while getting better daily.

This means that His book and philosophy must also evolve along with God and us.

The Fundamental Christians have their WORD of God and You have your WORD of God.

God is not a stagnant never changing pool. His water flows always and is never stagnant. If those who idol worship a book never look for the changing God then over time all they will have is a book while others have a God. Unfortunately it might be a secular one.

God is the sum of His philosophy. Philosophy changes as new information comes to light.
If Religionists do not change with the times then we will lose in our efforts against the Secularists and I tell you that if we do lose then on a block near yours there will be gambling halls and hoar houses.

Regards
DL

[Great I am not]

Greetings


I don't think you have a minute understanding of Islam as you allege, it would have been obvious just from the minor things you throw out here and there..

all the best

I hope your right and my subconscious has retained more of what I read and heard of late.

Regards
DL

[جوري]

Gossamer skye

I do not blame you for rejecting Christianity.
They are less than Islam at present in my eyes. The Jews have gained my respect since I have begun to speak on some sites. That was a surprise for me.

My blessing is that I know God to be evolving along with mankind. I see His perfection as an evolving perfection that began the moment he began to create and will continue forever.
The perfection time line for God's universe never ends. That means that here and now is as perfect as His systems can produce while getting better daily.

This means that His book and philosophy must also evolve along with God and us.

The Fundamental Christians have their WORD of God and You have your WORD of God.

God is not a stagnant never changing pool. His water flows always and is never stagnant. If those who idol worship a book never look for the changing God then over time all they will have is a book while others have a God. Unfortunately it might be a secular one.

God is the sum of His philosophy. Philosophy changes as new information comes to light.
If Religionists do not change with the times then we will lose in our efforts against the Secularists and I tell you that if we do lose then on a block near yours there will be gambling halls and hoar houses.

Regards
DL

Have you read suret al-kahf
chapter 18?

it speaks of early christians...

[Pickthal 18:9] Or deemest thou that the People of the Cave and the Inscription are a wonder among Our portents?
[Pickthal 18:10] When the young men fled for refuge to the Cave and said: Our Lord! Give us mercy from Thy presence, and shape for us right conduct in our plight.
[Pickthal 18:11] Then We sealed up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years.
[Pickthal 18:12] And afterward We raised them up that We might know which of the two parties would best calculate the time that they had tarried.
[Pickthal 18:13] We narrate unto thee their story with truth. Lo! they were young men who believed in their Lord, and We increased them in guidance.
[Pickthal 18:14] And We made firm their hearts when they stood forth and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. We cry unto no Allah beside Him, for then should we utter an enormity.
[Pickthal 18:15] These, our people, have chosen (other) gods beside Him though they bring no clear warrant (vouchsafed) to them. And who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah?
[Pickthal 18:16] And when ye withdraw from them and that which they worship except Allah, then seek refuge in the Cave; your Lord will spread for you of His mercy and will prepare for you a pillow in your plight.

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Thus you are wrong to say, I don't believe in christianity, I just don't believe in the modern spin that makes gods of men, all these prophet that you purport come from different gods, came carrying the message of the same God.
and I believe that Islam is the message that has always been, and the message that will always be, until such a time God takes religion from this earth and leaves it to the lowliest of people.

God's law doesn't change, man's law changes.
if he decreed that you shall not eat pigs, then that is what it will be for Jews, christians and Muslims...

Anyhow, Islamic Jurisprudence is very expansive and you need to be schooled in it, the above is a mere example.. or you can purchase lectures if you wish to learn more on the matter:
http://www.its.org.uk/ilj.html

a few recommended reads:

Full Catalogue Browse Categories: Qur'an, Sira & Hadith

Islamic Law & Jurisprudence The Ghazali Series Muslim Personalities Series Translations from
the Islamic Heritage Monographs on
Spirituality & Sufism General Titles
on Islam

ISLAMIC LAW & JURISPRUDENCE

The Dignity of Man: An Islamic Perspective
MOHAMMAD HASHIM KAMALI
The Dignity of Man: An Islamic Perspective provides the most detailed study to date on the subject of the dignity of man in Islam. This book goes a long way towards exploring an alternative to Western concepts of human rights. The Dignity of Man: An Islamic Perspective is part of a series of studies on fundamental rights and liberties in Islam.

Freedom, Equality and Justice in Islam
MOHAMMAD HASHIM KAMALI
In Freedom, Equality and Justice in Islam, M H Kamali presents the reader with an analysis of the three concepts of freedom, equality and justice from an Islamic point of view and their manifestations in the religious, social, legal and political fields. Companion volume to The Dignity of Man and Freedom of Expression in Islam.

Freedom of Expression in Islam
MOHAMMAD HASHIM KAMALI
In recent years the subject of freedom of expression has become a topic of heated debate. Freedom of Expression in Islam offers the first and only detailed presentation in English of freedom of expression from both the legal and moral perspectives of Islam. Companion volume to The Dignity of Man and Freedom, Equality and Justice in Islam.

The Right to Life, Security, Privacy and Ownership in Islam
Mohammad H Kamali
A person’s right to life, personal security, privacy, and ownership are the most basic of all the fundamental rights and liberties and are of concern to all legal systems and traditions. To address them side by side with one another, as is attempted in the present volume, is reflective of their natural priority and significance. These rights are simultaneously the most vulnerable to aggression and abuse.

Islamic Commercial Law: An Analysis of Futures and Options
MOHAMMAD HASHIM KAMALI
Futures and options are a completely new phenomenon which has no parallel in Islamic commercial law. This work focuses on options and futures as trading tools and explores their validity from an Islamic point of view.

Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence
MOHAMMAD HASHIM KAMALI
This third edition of the best-selling title Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence has been completely revised and substantially enlarged. In this work, Prof Kamali offers us the first detailed presentation available in English of the theory of Muslim law (usul al-fiqh). Written as a university textbook, Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence is an essential reference work not only for students of Islamic law, but also for anyone with an interest in Muslim society or in issues of comparative jurisprudence.

Language and the Interpretation of Islamic Law
Sukrija Husejn Ramic
One of the most important branches of principles of Islamic jurisprudence (usul al-fiqh) is the study of the usage of language. Language and the Interpretation of Islamic Law is the first work to appear in English dealing with this important aspect of Islamic law.

Al-Shafi'i’s Risala
Treatise on the Foundations of Islamic Jurisprudence
Translated by: MAJID KHADDURI
Written in the second Islamic century by al-Imam al-Shafi'i (d. 204AH/ 820AD), the founder of one of the four Sunni schools of law, this important work gives the fundamental principles of Islamic jurisprudence, and its influence continues to the present day.

On Schacht’s Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence
MUHAMMAD M. AL-AZAMI
This in-depth study presents a detailed analysis and critique of the classic Western work on the origins of Islamic law, Schacht’s Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence. Azami’s work examines the sources used by Schacht and exposes fundamental flaws in Schacht’s methodology. This book is an important contribution to Islamic legal studies from an Islamic perspective.

Equity and Fairness in Islam
MOHAMMAD H KAMALI
First work in the English language to deal specifically with the subjects of equity and fairness in Islamic law. Origins, nature and different legal perspectives on the concept of istihsan, followed by definition and examples of its applications, including issues related to Islamic banking, sale transactions, charitable endowments, pensions funds and others.

peace

[Great I am not]

Gossamer skye

"God's law doesn't change, man's law changes."
It appears to have changed after the great flood.---I will hurt man no more-paraphrase.

The fact that the laws of men change is good. it shows how we are part of evolution.

The same evolution that God began the moment He began creation.

We now live in an evolving perfection.
God, nor His perfect universe can back slide out of perfection. This is not allowed.


The Dignity of Man: An Islamic Perspective
I noted above that Muslims were slaves to Allah. How can a slave have dignity?

Freedom, Equality and Justice in Islam
The Right to Life, Security, Privacy and Ownership in Islam

How can a slave be free, be private and own anything when he does not own himself?


Regards
DL

[جوري]

"God's law doesn't change, man's law changes."
It appears to have changed after the great flood.---I will hurt man no more-paraphrase.'

God doesn't make mistakes, he feels no remorse and he is not after hurting me.. yet another downfall of the anthropomorphic god of your bible.. this weak, ineffectual god that has labile emotions, favors folks, unleashes his wrath on others, then decides he will die for them.. what is that all about?
All that is good if from God, all that is evil is from within ourselves...
You are after something that you're just not going to get here.. so you can waste your time 'evolving' the law.. that same law that made black people sit in the back of the bus, or have them as slaves on your plantation, have people's lives judged by 12 random idiots from the streets that are chosen for Jury duty, or let a child murderer and rapist go free after one year.. then you become a slave to this world, and to laws that you can't adjust to carry out actual justice, and it is all because you think you can do better.. but then how can I blame you? when god feels remorse, hurts men, prays to himself, self-immolates, or chooses a particular folk over others...

after all that, you can only think that you can do better than God or outdo God with non existing cleverness .. Then you have collapsed economies for even a sound economic system was given us, and you fall to ponzi schemes.. and go invading other people's lands and break off their strong empires steal their goods and rape their women, for your 'freedom fries, and 711 and hooters' and the whole world sinks down with you.... all because you are so evolved and you can do so much better-- other people are uncivilized.. surprisingly the very places you invade marked the rise of history, the birth place of civilization and religion. Abraham (P) was originally from Iraq (Haran) but you think your women with 750cc implants and pleather mini skirts are better and your processed food and your islamophobic pundits the stuff of the evolved civilized men, and then act so surprised that you are not well received, rather folks unleashing plagues of hatred and sickness upon the world!


indeed we are slaves to Allah swt, he has guardianship over us.. and that is what it means to be free, for he is our cherisher and sustainer as per Quran!


Anyhow, I have wasted enough time on the web yesterday on this thread and various others..

all that you need to know is in the Quran itself and in the books above, also may I recommend The History of Quranic Text by Dr. Al'Azami...

everything above and beyond this will be a waste of your time and even worse, my own..

good luck on your quest..

all the best

[Gubbleknucker]

For an omnipotent being, everything would be easy.
Even creating the universe would be no great accomplishment.

I don't feel pride for anything I do that is easy for me. Why would God?

[Gubbleknucker]

For an omnipotent being, everything would be easy.

I don't feel pride for anything I do that was easy for me. Why would God?

For God to feel pride, he would have to be a little god.

[Zafran]

what the???

[AntiKarateKid]

For an omnipotent being, everything would be easy.

I don't feel pride for anything I do that was easy for me. Why would God?

For God to feel pride, he would have to be a little god.

Pride is a human word that we use to describe Allah's disposition. Similarly, we use pleasure and anger of Allah to describe his actions because that is best we can do when trying to describe a being who is beyond our senses.

I feel pride in refuting your post, even though it was easy for me. :)

[Great I am not]

For an omnipotent being, everything would be easy.
Even creating the universe would be no great accomplishment.

I don't feel pride for anything I do that is easy for me. Why would God?

Do you not take pride in your children and parents, your spouse and accomplishments, a job well done?

Does God not take pride in His son?

Regards
DL

[Gubbleknucker]

Do you not take pride in your children and parents, your spouse and accomplishments, a job well done?

Yes, because they took effort to gain.

Does God not take pride in His son?

In Christianity, God is proud of Jesus's accomplishments, yes,

But that is a different sort of pride than "I am proud that I made this."

I make many things. The only ones I am proud of are the ones I had to work hard to create. I am far more proud of my origami three-headed dragons than I am of my origami rock.

An omnipotent being doesn't have to work hard to do anything. He would be incapable of the kind of pride I thought we were talking about.
To him the universe would be an origami rock.

[Great I am not]

Yes, because they took effort to gain.


In Christianity, God is proud of Jesus's accomplishments, yes,

But that is a different sort of pride than "I am proud that I made this."

I make many things. The only ones I am proud of are the ones I had to work hard to create. I am far more proud of my origami three-headed dragons than I am of my origami rock.

An omnipotent being doesn't have to work hard to do anything. He would be incapable of the kind of pride I thought we were talking about.
To him the universe would be an origami rock.

To recant is good.

Pride is pride.
In him I am well pleased.

You speak of another kind of pride but do not name it so lets stick with what we know.

Regards
DL

[Amadeus85]

The current problems of the world are caused by the people. It's the human beings who invented communism, national socialism, liberalism, liberal democracy, neo liberalism etc etc.

[Great I am not]

The current problems of the world are caused by the people. It's the human beings who invented communism, national socialism, liberalism, liberal democracy, neo liberalism etc etc.

I agree, freedom seeking men have done it all but think all of the above are better than living as slaves to a dictator or slave owner.

Do you prefer slavery or what kind of system would you like to see?
Is there any freedom of choice in it or is it all like the freedom that God gives. my way or hell forever. Not freedom at all but an ultimatum.


Regards
DL

[جوري]

if you wanted to be an engineer..
you'd have to go to engineering school and pass your exams.. and then be free to start your own company or join a group or whatever..

You can't dream it, and expect it as a birth right...
it makes no sense that you a dreamer be in the same category as folks who spent their life working hard and trying to better their lives.. maybe engineering doesn't matter to you all together, maybe you are content being a bus driver.. that is fine too, that is your choice..
It isn't an ultimatum.. it is a sensical path...


[Pickthal 18:29] Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve.

No ultimatum here!
----

[Pickthal 53:29] Then withdraw from him who fleeth from Our remembrance and desireth but the life of the world.
[Pickthal 53:30] Such is their sum of knowledge. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth, and He is Best Aware of him whom goeth right.
[Pickthal 53:31] And unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, that He may reward those who do evil with that which they have done, and reward those who do good with goodness.


___________________

thus one can safely conclude that if you desire to find your way, it is your free choice, again not an ultimatum.. and if you desire only the life of this world, then it is yours..
the book is sent for those who desire to meet with their lord..
There are no false pretenses..

however, how do you personally reconcile all that Jesus love with throwing children into hell?
see here:

http://www.naqatube.com/view_video.p...ic&category=rf

[Great I am not]

if you wanted to be an engineer..
you'd have to go to engineering school and pass your exams.. and then be free to start your own company or join a group or whatever..

You can't dream it, and expect it as a birth right...
it makes no sense that you a dreamer be in the same category as folks who spent their life working hard and trying to better their lives.. maybe engineering doesn't matter to you all together, maybe you are content being a bus driver.. that is fine too, that is your choice..
It isn't an ultimatum.. it is a sensical path...


[Pickthal 18:29] Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve.

No ultimatum here!
----

[Pickthal 53:29] Then withdraw from him who fleeth from Our remembrance and desireth but the life of the world.
[Pickthal 53:30] Such is their sum of knowledge. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth, and He is Best Aware of him whom goeth right.[[/URL]

Which of the two bests is His best?

Regards
DL

[جوري]

I almost regret having taken the time to reply to you...
go start your own religion, it seems a popular trend now a days.. or delude yourself with a loving god that will throw children in hell for not taking him for a god!

all the best

[Great I am not]

I almost regret having taken the time to reply to you...
go start your own religion, it seems a popular trend now a days.. or delude yourself with a loving god that will throw children in hell for not taking him for a god!

all the best

Oh my. Did I hit a nerve with a simple question?

Regards
DL

[جوري]

Oh my. Did I hit a nerve with a simple question?

Regards
DL

You are capable of many good non-questions indeed I hope I didn't give the impression that you are incapable of plastering words as good as anyone with Korsakoff's syndrome! probably a banana bag would take care of a few of your encephalopathic symptoms and the delusions of those after you by changing your name.

best of luck fellow!