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Gator
07-09-2009, 01:10 PM
Just saw this on Youtube. I went to the University of Florida in Gainesville and was surprised. I loved Gainesville as it has a very artistic and open feel, but go right outside a little and you start running up against the type of Southern ignorace you can find (let's call it Southern Baptist*), so there's a tension between the two.

The video is about a protest of a church that put up a sign. Thought it was interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx0FdnSPS9Q




*joke stolen from comedian David Cross.
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GuestFellow
07-09-2009, 02:39 PM
Meh I am not surprised. It is getting annoying and too repetitive.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-09-2009, 03:50 PM
Wow, people should be nice like that more...other than the sign of course.
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rpwelton
07-09-2009, 04:04 PM
Just goes to show how hard we have to work in spreading the message of Islam and correcting misconceptions.

Thanks to our Jewish brothers in humanity who stood up for us at the beginning of the clip.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-09-2009, 04:19 PM
^^ Yea that was awesome.
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glo
07-09-2009, 04:24 PM
I am shocked by the sign ... and encouraged by the response of people from all religions and none to speak out against it.



But perhaps we can use this as an opportunity to privately search our own hearts and attitudes towards other religions and to explore our own prejudices.

Do you, as Muslims, believe that other religions are 'from the devil'?
If you were told at masjid that Christians (or followers of other religions) have been deceived by Shaitaan, would you be shocked and protest? Or would you actually agree?
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glo
07-09-2009, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
Thanks to our Jewish brothers in humanity who stood up for us at the beginning of the clip.
That rabbi seems like a great guy! :)

But did you notice the sign he carried which said 'One God. Many paths'?
Do you agree with that message? That all paths lead to God and paradise? :?
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rpwelton
07-09-2009, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
That rabbi seems like a great guy! :)

But did you notice the sign he carried which said 'One God. Many paths'?
Do you agree with that message? That all paths lead to God and paradise? :?
Didn't notice the "many paths" part. In my belief, there is only one way to God, and that is Islam. Of course if you wish to choose another religion, that is your right; Islam can't be forced upon anyone.

As for the other religions of the world, as Muslims yes we believe that they have all in some way been deceived by Satan, because they have deviated from the truth. However, I would never say that "such and such religion is the devil, or the followers of a religion are from the devil (although I suppose Wiccans wouldn't object :statisfie)

There is a difference between calling a religion "the devil" and saying that its followers have been deceived by the devil. I do not believe a Christian is from the devil, nor a Jew, nor a Hindu, etc.

As Muslims we recognize that there is still bits of truth in many of the world's religions, and while we do not believe the followers can enter paradise without believing in Islam, we must treat all of them with respect and kindness.

Hope that's clear.
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glo
07-09-2009, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
As for the other religions of the world, as Muslims yes we believe that they have all in some way been deceived by Satan, because they have deviated from the truth. However, I would never say that "such and such religion is the devil, or the followers of a religion are from the devil (although I suppose Wiccans wouldn't object :statisfie)
I am sure that most Wiccans would disagree with you and assert that they neither follow nor worship Satan.

There is a difference between calling a religion "the devil" and saying that its followers have been deceived by the devil. I do not believe a Christian is from the devil, nor a Jew, nor a Hindu, etc.
I know what you mean, but the sign didn't say that Islam was the devil; it said that Islam was 'of the devil'.
Perhaps we are getting into semantics here, but to be 'of the devil' can easily mean 'to be influenced by the devil'.
Not so far from saying 'Religion X is not the truth, it has been distorted by Satan' ... and many of us might say or think just that about other faiths.

I am shocked by the sign, but I guess what I am trying to unpick is whether many of us actually do think similarly about followers of other religions - we just might not express it so strongly and openly ... :?

As Muslims we recognize that there is still bits of truth in many of the world's religions, and while we do not believe the followers can enter paradise without believing in Islam, we must treat all of them with respect and kindness.
I like that! :statisfie
Hope that's clear.
Crystal. Thank you for sharing. :)
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rpwelton
07-09-2009, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo


I know what you mean, but the sign didn't say that Islam was the devil; it said that Islam was 'of the devil'.
Perhaps we are getting into semantics here, but to be 'of the devil' can easily mean 'to be influenced by the devil'.
Not so far from saying 'Religion X is not the truth, it has been distorted by Satan' ... and many of us might say or think just that about other faiths.
When you say something is "of the devil" then you are saying that thing wholly comes from the devil.

Basically to me that sign is saying that Islam is a religion that either worships the devil, is completely inspired by the devil, or is completely evil, or something similar of the sort.

If I am to say (which I do) that Christianity has in some ways deviated from the truth as a result of influence by Satan through the minds of men, I am not saying that Christianity is "of the devil".

Saying parts of a religion have been influenced by the whispers of Satan is a big step away from saying that religion is from Satan.

As I said before, most religions of the world still hold some truth to them (with Christianity and Judaism being the ones holding the most truth of any), so they cannot entirely be "from Satan". Rather to say something is from the devil is to say the whole religion was from the devil.

I just don't think it's a matter of semantics. Then again, maybe people have different perceptions as to what that sign means to them.
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Rabi'ya
07-09-2009, 07:34 PM
:sl:

I have contacted the church which has posted this sign. I shall keep you informed if they reply.

Here is a copy of the email I sent them....I hope they do reply inshAllah.

Greetings,
I am sure you have received plenty of messages regarding the sign and whilst you(as the church) are entitled to your own opinion I would jst like a response to one question if you wouldn't mind. I don'd think it would take too much of your time to help a fellow sister in religion :)

Did Jesus ever say anything like this and are we following his example by making this statement?

I hope you can clear my mind

regards
Victoria

Let's see what they say.....
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Amadeus85
07-09-2009, 07:57 PM
Haven't the american protestants better things to do, than such questionable "shows".
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Zafran
07-09-2009, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I am shocked by the sign ... and encouraged by the response of people from all religions and none to speak out against it.



But perhaps we can use this as an opportunity to privately search our own hearts and attitudes towards other religions and to explore our own prejudices.

Do you, as Muslims, believe that other religions are 'from the devil'?
If you were told at masjid that Christians (or followers of other religions) have been deceived by Shaitaan, would you be shocked and protest? Or would you actually agree?
1 - Muslims dont believe other religions are from the devil - but some christains do - Its easier for a muslim to talk to a christain then the other way round.

2 - A lot of people can be decieved by the devil including Muslims - I've never heard another religion being talked about in the masjid - its always about getting close to God and doing our duties and the importance of certain acts.
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Pygoscelis
07-10-2009, 12:47 AM
Isn't "Islam is of the devil" correct according to the teachings of this particular church? I don't think it should have surprised anybody if its already known to be part of the church's dogma. Would you be surprised by a sign saying "Only Christians go to Heaven?" or "Only Muslims go to Heaven" or whatever? These could certainly be read as offensive to those not of those groups but I don't think I'd bat an eye at seeing them.
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جوري
07-10-2009, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo

Do you, as Muslims, believe that other religions are 'from the devil'?
If you were told at masjid that Christians (or followers of other religions) have been deceived by Shaitaan, would you be shocked and protest? Or would you actually agree?
does being deceived by shaitaan in your book equal to religion coming from the devil?
one only needs to look at the heinous church history and its apologists against islam from its very inception to appreciate that this most certainly is a one sided hatred..

I challenge you to find me one thing in your bible that reads like this:

2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.



or this


5:82 ---and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

_____________________________________________

No!-- religion is from God.. following your own whims and re-writing the book and making gods of men is from the devil-- although the devil can certainly be from man/kind..


all the best
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glo
07-10-2009, 06:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Isn't "Islam is of the devil" correct according to the teachings of this particular church? I don't think it should have surprised anybody if its already known to be part of the church's dogma. Would you be surprised by a sign saying "Only Christians go to Heaven?" or "Only Muslims go to Heaven" or whatever? These could certainly be read as offensive to those not of those groups but I don't think I'd bat an eye at seeing them.
I was thinking along similar lines, Pygo, but you said it better than me.

Do you think that the insult is caused by the strong wording of the sign, rather than the theological concept that only followers of a certain religion attain salvation (which we know is the teaching and understanding of some religions)?
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rpwelton
07-10-2009, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Isn't "Islam is of the devil" correct according to the teachings of this particular church? I don't think it should have surprised anybody if its already known to be part of the church's dogma. Would you be surprised by a sign saying "Only Christians go to Heaven?" or "Only Muslims go to Heaven" or whatever? These could certainly be read as offensive to those not of those groups but I don't think I'd bat an eye at seeing them.
What particular sect of Christianity this is which actually holds such beliefs about Islam?
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sledge_hammer
07-15-2009, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
does being deceived by shaitaan in your book equal to religion coming from the devil?
one only needs to look at the heinous church history and its apologists against islam from its very inception to appreciate that this most certainly is a one sided hatred..

I challenge you to find me one thing in your bible that reads like this:

2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.



or this


5:82 ---and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

_____________________________________________

No!-- religion is from God.. following your own whims and re-writing the book and making gods of men is from the devil-- although the devil can certainly be from man/kind..


all the best

LOL...the Quran also says this:

""O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)"

Totally negates what is said in 2:26

So which one is it?
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convert
07-15-2009, 04:53 PM
Wanna give a tasir of that? When/how was it revealed?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-16-2009, 03:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sledge_hammer
LOL...the Quran also says this:

""O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)"

Totally negates what is said in 2:26

So which one is it?
Ahh another verse twist.

"LOL"
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GuestFellow
07-16-2009, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sledge_hammer
""O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)"
Hi.

Picking verses out of the Quran does not always portray its full meaning. I'm sure you must have heard Muslims state this before.

The Surah was revealed to deal with specific problems that raised from the Treaty of Hudaybiyah when Muslims were allowed permission to fight such Jews and Christians who broke their sworn treaty of loyalty to the Islamic state of Madinah as well as any other enemies who attacked them (surah 9.29-31). It did not constitute an injunction against the normal friendly Jews and Christians.

Peace.
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sledge_hammer
07-16-2009, 08:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Ahh another verse twist.

"LOL"
No twist here missy... :D
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جوري
07-16-2009, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sledge_hammer
LOL...the Quran also says this:

""O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)"

Totally negates what is said in 2:26

So which one is it?

It is both.. learn the historical context before asking which! I have no time nor am I amused by amateurs!
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sledge_hammer
07-16-2009, 09:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Hi.

Picking verses out of the Quran does not always portray its full meaning. I'm sure you must have heard Muslims state this before.
Indeed I have. However, I don't always get the same answer :blind:


The Surah was revealed to deal with specific problems that raised from the Treaty of Hudaybiyah when Muslims were allowed permission to fight such Jews and Christians who broke their sworn treaty of loyalty to the Islamic state of Madinah as well as any other enemies who attacked them (surah 9.29-31). It did not constitute an injunction against the normal friendly Jews and Christians.

Peace.
Obviously you know more about your Quran than I do. I guess its all in the "interpretion", eh? Maybe this is why Christians and Jews are so loved and respected by their Muslim brothers/sisters right here in the 21st century?

"All the best"
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جوري
07-16-2009, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sledge_hammer


Obviously you know more about your Quran than I do. I guess its all in the "interpretion", eh? Maybe this is why Christians and Jews are so loved and respected by their Muslim brothers/sisters right here in the 21st century?

"All the best"
No one is under any obligation to love anyone.. Love is earned not imposed through wars and sanctions!
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GuestFellow
07-16-2009, 09:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sledge_hammer
Maybe this is why Christians and Jews are so loved and respected by their Muslim brothers/sisters right here in the 21st century?

"All the best"
Yes some Muslims may dislike Jews or Christians, even though our religion states to respect them. Then again there are some Jews and Christians that dislike Muslims too.
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جوري
07-16-2009, 09:53 PM
I don't prefer to handle his ilk with kind speech and kid gloves.. I rather vote for giving him the boots now rather than waiting for a good three week for possible 'human interactions' to occur. I am actually about my saturation point fill of idiots!

:w:
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'Abd-al Latif
07-17-2009, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sledge_hammer
LOL...the Quran also says this:

""O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)"

Totally negates what is said in 2:26

So which one is it?
Negation according to your base desires.

This verse you quoted talks about the prohibition of taking non-muslims as friends and they are refered to as disbelievers by God because the Law of Qur'an revealed to Muhammad (saaws) precedes all the laws that were sent to the Prophets before, in particular Moses and Jesus.

Verse 2:62 is as explained by the great scholar Islameel ibn Khateer:

Allaah, may He be exalted, points out that whoever of the previous nations did well and was obedient, will have a good reward, and this will be the case for everyone who follows the Unlettered Prophet [Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the Hour comes – he will have eternal happiness, and they will not fear what they are going to face, nor will they grieve for what they have left behind.

As Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘No doubt! Verily, the awliya’ of Allaah [i.e., those who believe in the Oneness of Allaah and fear Allaah much, and love Allaah much], no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve.’ [Yoonus 10:62].

And Allaah tells us what the angels say to the believers at the time of death (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Verily, those who say, “Our Lord is Allaah,” then they istaqaamu [stood straight, i.e., truly followed Islam], on them the angels will descend (at the time of their death) (saying): “Fear not, nor grieve! But receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised!”’ [Fussilat 41:30]

As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moses (peace be upon him) until Jesus came, after which whoever continued to follow the Torah and the way of Moses, and did not leave this and follow Jesus, was doomed. As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following the laws of Jesus; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and leave the way of Jesus and the Injeel that he had been following before, was doomed.

The verse (interpretation of the meaning), “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

is a statement that Allaah will not accept any way or deed from anyone, after sending His Final Messenger, except those that are in accordance with the laws of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Prior to this, however, anyone who followed the Prophet of his own time was on the Straight Path of salvation. So the Jews were those who followed Moses (peace be upon him) and referred to the Tawraat for judgement at that time.

When Allaah sent Jesus (peace be upon him), the Children of Israel were obliged to follow him and obey him, and so they and others who followed him became Christians. When Allaah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as the Final Prophet and a Messenger to all the children of Adam, all of mankind was obliged to believe in him and obey him, and refrain from what he prohibited. Those who did so are the true believers. The ummah (nation) of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are called the believers because of their deep eemaan (faith) and conviction, and because they believe in all the past Prophets and in the prophesied events that are yet to come.”
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