Bible: Beat your Kids, dont spare them the Rod

[The_Prince]

Christians are always going on about how Islam teaches the men to beat their wives, yet Christians seemed to have miss the train, why dont they read their own Bible when it comes to beating?

especially child beating! http://muslim-responses.com/Beat_Chi...Beat_Children_

:skeleton:

[Ben]

The verses in this article are referring to child discipline. It seems that you're equating "beating" to "discipline," when there really is a difference between the two. When I was a kid and did something wrong, my dad would sometimes spank me as a form of punishment (my sister learned that by saying "I'm sorry Daddy, I love you" she would get out of it...I tended to be a little more stubborn and bull-headed); he was disciplining me out of love, which is what these verses talking about. Beating, on the other hand, by definition, is violent, repeated, and spurred out of anger. My dad did not beat me, but he did discipline me.

Hopefully that clears things up!

Note: not all Christians believe it is okay to spank a child, but as I said, the important thing is that discipline is rooted in love while beating is rooted in anger.

[_ALI_]

Salam
You defined beating as violent, repeated and spurred out of anger. Note that the following verse of the bible uses the term "beat"
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:14
And what about the treatment of slaves according to the given link?
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. (Exodus 20:20-21)
As for the beating of slaves in Islam
(Book 15, Number 4088:
Sahih Muslim)
Abu Mas’ud al-Ansari reported: When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas’ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah’s Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you.
Peace

[Grace Seeker]

Christians are always going on about how Islam teaches the men to beat their wives, yet Christians seemed to have miss the train, why dont they read their own Bible when it comes to beating?

especially child beating! http://muslim-responses.com/Beat_Chi...Beat_Children_

:skeleton:

Ah, the old, you engage in child-beating so that condones me beating my wife excuse.


Questions:
1) Do Muslims really wish to condone wife-beating?
2) Would Muslims prefer to say that they don't condone beating their wifes and that those who do are improperly interpreting the meaning of the Qur'an and Hadith in this regard?
3) If Christians really did condone child-beating (which I don't believe is the best interpretation of that passage, and I've even preached contrary to it in sermons because I've heard some Christians try to misuse these verses to excuse behavior that Christians do not condone), how would that in any way excuse wife-beating?



Surely we can agree that neither Christians nor Muslims condone beating anyone. And that even when guiding people with discipline that to use a beating is reprehensible.

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[Al-Zaara]

I think that argument is unfair, I have read the Bible and I felt especially that part wasn't literally meant, because I do feel a lot in the Bible isn't fair to interprent literally as it has various differences (updated from time to time)... That's just my two cents. :)

[Ben]

Al-Zaara you make a really good point that we need to keep in mind: you cannot derive doctrine from works of poetry (it’s highly emotional), neither in the Bible nor in the Qur’an. Also note that hyperbole and other figures of speech are used throughout the Bible and sometimes it takes a keen eye to detect them.

Regarding the account in Exodus (which is actually from Exodus 21:20-21): the 10 commandments are given in chapter 20. One of those commandments is, “You shall not murder” (Ex 20:13). Now in chapter 21 we are given a number of specific examples of what that means—we are to respect the life of others. If you intentionally kill (murder) someone, you will be held responsible. I don’t see that this verse in any way could be used to promote the beating of anyone or anything.

[Al-Zaara]

Al-Zaara you make a really good point that we need to keep in mind: you cannot derive doctrine from works of poetry (it’s highly emotional), neither in the Bible nor in the Qur’an. Also note that hyperbole and other figures of speech are used throughout the Bible and sometimes it takes a keen eye to detect them.

Exactly. Apart from home (Muslim family), I was raised in a mostly secular/Christian enviroment and have discussed it with friends who were strong believers in Christianity, so I myself understand the Bible a lot of times like poetry, or figures of speech which aren't to be taken literally, just like my Christian friends do.

[piXie]

Ah, the old, you engage in child-beating so that condones me beating my wife excuse.

I think the brother meant that a person who believes in disciplining their children when they have behaved wrongly, have no room to condemn another who disciplines his wife when she has behaved wrongly.

Or something.

1) Do Muslims really wish to condone wife-beating?

Discipline*

Used only as a last resort and no harder than a light flick. Not beating as in beating. **horrified** :skeleton:

Btw we also believe in disciplining children, however we are not allowed to spank them under the age of 10.

Surely we can agree that neither Christians nor Muslims condone beating anyone. And that even when guiding people with discipline that to use a beating is reprehensible.

Ofcourse. :D

[Grace Seeker]

I think the brother meant that a person who believes in disciplining their children when they have behaved wrongly, have no room to condemn another who disciplines his wife when she has behaved wrongly.

Agreed. The problem is when one moves beyond discipline to beating. No doubt that Proverbs 13:24 implies strict corporal punishment as a form of discipline. Indeed it was seen as an expression of a father's love that he would not neglect to so discipline his children.

Hopefully that would not become abusive or take the form of beatings, for I do not believe that this is what is meant by the text. I believe for the OP to interpret the verse as condoning beatings is just as wrong as for a non-Muslim to interpret the permission the Qur'an gives to husbands to discipline their wives as condoning beating. While no doubt some of all faiths have gone overboard in their respective methods of disciplining, I don't think that either actually condone the concept of using beating as a form of discipline when they speak of providing discipline.

Now, whether a spouse should actually try to discipline one's spouse in the same sense that a parent disciplines his/her child is another question. I'm not really comfortable with that concept even when it is not physically abusive. But that would no doubt take us off topic for the thread.

[piXie]

Now, whether a spouse should actually try to discipline one's spouse in the same sense that a parent disciplines his/her child is another question. I'm not really comfortable with that concept even when it is not physically abusive. But that would no doubt take us off topic for the thread.

But everyone requires discipline when they behave inappropriately, why is it uncomfortable that a husband disciplines his wife? If its a child, his parents would discipline him. If its a wife, her husband would discipline her. If its a soldier, his commander would discipline him. If its people in a land, then their govt. will discipline them. All these people are disciplined by those who have authority over them, but not in the same way (each group is disciplined differently). And God has an authority over the people who he has given authority to (parents, husband, govt etc). God constantly reminds those people to fear Him, be fair and don't abuse their authority for they will be held answerable to Him. The parents, husband, govt. have to make sure that themselves and those under them are not acting immoral, misbehaving or spreading corruption in the land etc. They have to check and guide those under them to make sure no wrong is being done. Its like a whole system of responsibility and accountability Because otherwise there would be no order or anything and everyone will do as they please.

Perhaps brother Ansars post will help explain it further. Tho forgive me if u have read it already.

.....We see from the other Qur'anic verses and the Prophet's example that kind, compassionate and gentle treatment has been ordained. This verse speaks specifically of the case when there is deliberately nasty behaviour on the part of the wife which poses a threat to the marriage (the Prophet Muhammad pbuh defined the behaviour in question to be manifest indecency). And in such a case one is to use admonition and discussion as the primary method of seeking resolution, and after that seperation. The last method described here after the other methods is the use of light physical force, but never to the point of abuse or injury, nor when angry. The issue here is not punishing the wife at all, but rather to evoke recognition of the gravity of the situation. If Muslims followed the Qur'anic method of dispute resolution, they would never arrive at such a stage. And the wife has the opportunity to seek divorce at any stage in the matter. She should never stay in an abusive relationship and no one is allowed to force her to do so. The verse gives absolutely no license for wife abuse or domestic violence.

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...tml#post305540

[Trumble]

But everyone requires discipline when they behave inappropriately, why is it uncomfortable that a husband disciplines his wife?

Parents have authority over minor (only) children and certainly children need discipline, although good parents do not need to use significant physical force. Commanders have authority over soldiers, who need discipline, which must be enforced else their comrades will be put at risk. However, I have no more 'authority' over my wife than she does over me nor do I have any valid claim for such and the idea of other of us 'disciplining' each either is ludicrous. Marriage must be based on communication and mutual respect, and such 'discipline' is favoured only by weak, arrogant bullies (the same weak, arrogant bullies who beat their children), not respectful loving husbands.

[Jon Paul]

Hello, everyone!

While it is true that the father has the ultimate authority within the nuclear family, both the man and the wife should have an equal say regarding their family and their welfare. However, in case of instances of dissenting opinion the man and the wife should both hear each other out, but ultimately in the end it is the husband who has the final say on the matter.

If a man feels the need to exercise corporal punishment on his wife, then I can only say that their relationship is far from stable and is not a secure faily enviorment. If a man takes a women to marriage, then he must recognise that she is an adult and has the intellectual capacity of an adult. She is not a child and should not be treated like a child.

Regarding a Christian perception of wife-beating amongst Muslims.. my friend, this is far from a Christian perception. Hell, we Irish are still known as drunken wife-beaters when someone wishes to insult us.

Regards,
JP.

[Grace Seeker]

But everyone requires discipline when they behave inappropriately, why is it uncomfortable that a husband disciplines his wife?

You'll note that I didn't say that I was uncomfortable with a husband disciplining his wife, I said I was uncomfortable with a spouse disciplining his/her spouse. So, ask yourself how you would feel if it was a wife who was disciplining her husband and you have you answer to why I am uncomfortable with a husband disciplining his wife.


Most of the relationships you mentioned are unequal in nature: parents/children, commanders/soldiers, government/citizens.... But I don't believe that husbands and wives are unequals. And though it isn't just in Islam that this comes up (there are some Christians who behave the same way), I think they are all misogynistic interpretations of God's will and not truly God's will at all when we see this sort of unequal and unbalanced relationship develop.

To my way of thinking, no man (or woman) has the God-given right to discipline another adult to the extent that it includes any degree of physical force, even "light physical force" regardless of the "gravity of the situation". I'm not saying that there aren't ever times when people don't have to provide correction to one another. While typing this my wife came and asked me for something that I couldn't comply with immediately, and when I indicated that she gave me a "Whatever!" answer that didn't set to well with me. I in fact did call her back into the office and correct her, but if she had continued to walk out I would have been entirely out of line to use force to "discipline" her. And in our relationship this isn't a one-way street, there are also times when she seeks to correct me because of something that I have done or am doing that is out of line. This is about working on our mutual relationship that is founded on love, understanding, and mutual support for one another; relationships that God defines for us are not built on one person exercising authority over another, I hold that such behavior is entirely a creation of the human mind, not the will of God.

If you have read this post carefully, you will find that my concern is about something much deeper than the occassional "light flick" that a husband might give his wife. Such things I believe are merely symptomatic of a much deeper and more distrubing issue, that issue would be the implicit principle of a hierarchial relationship in which one person actually is believed to have the God-given right to demand the power to exercise authority over another.

[_ALI_]

Salam Grace Seeker
Your post gives an impression that according to you, a Muslim can discipline his wife any time by physical force. Read the verse of the Quran under discussion again

004.034 الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنْفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ وَاللاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلا إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا
004.034 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first)
Note that applying physical force doesn't come immediately. First is admonishment. So I agree with you that you would have been out of line to use force to discipline your wife. First comes admonishment, you did exactly that.
(Next), refuse to share their beds,
Now this is the second step. God doesn't say if a person's wife requires discipline, he should beat her. He should first try to correct her verbally, then separate beds. Note that this act of separating beds won't take a couple of hours. This step will take a few days
(And last) beat them (lightly);
Now this is the final step. The first 2 steps will take a few days. Then you are allowed to use physical force on your wife. Suppose if a person's wife is on drugs. He should first admonish her. If that doesn't work then separate the beds. And if that doesn't work then he should use force. It will be for her own good. If she stops then as the Quran says
but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Al-Qur'an, 004.034 (An-Nisa [Women])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
As I explained, a Muslim cannot just hit his wife even if she does something really bad. He has to do these 3 steps as demonstrated by this very verse.
Peace

[Grace Seeker]

Salam Grace Seeker
Your post gives an impression that according to you, a Muslim can discipline his wife any time by physical force.

Read the verse of the Quran under discussion again

004.034 الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنْفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ وَاللاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلا إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا
004.034 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first)
Note that applying physical force doesn't come immediately. First is admonishment. So I agree with you that you would have been out of line to use force to discipline your wife. First comes admonishment, you did exactly that.
(Next), refuse to share their beds,
Now this is the second step. God doesn't say if a person's wife requires discipline, he should beat her. He should first try to correct her verbally, then separate beds. Note that this act of separating beds won't take a couple of hours. This step will take a few days
(And last) beat them (lightly);
Now this is the final step. The first 2 steps will take a few days. Then you are allowed to use physical force on your wife. Suppose if a person's wife is on drugs. He should first admonish her. If that doesn't work then separate the beds. And if that doesn't work then he should use force. It will be for her own good. If she stops then as the Quran says
but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Al-Qur'an, 004.034 (An-Nisa [Women])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
As I explained, a Muslim cannot just hit his wife even if she does something really bad. He has to do these 3 steps as demonstrated by this very verse.
Peace

Sorry, I was just responding to Pixie's particular defense of the Qur'an, not the Qur'an itself. Though, now with you spelling it out, I guess I do have reservations about even what you portray the Qur'an to be saying, for I don't believe that last step to be appropriate behavior when the other person is n adult in her own right. If the first two steps don't resolve the issue, then separate not just beds, but houses. But the use of force would still be wrong.

[Uthman]

Grace Seeker,

I guess I do have reservations about even what you portray the Qur'an to be saying, for I don't believe that last step to be appropriate behavior when the other person is n adult in her own right. If the first two steps don't resolve the issue, then separate not just beds, but houses. But the use of force would still be wrong.

Hopefully you will change your mind after having a cursory look at this thread. :)

Regards

[Grace Seeker]

I have read it (the first page where the main ideas are presented, not the radical comments that followed later), and can appreciate that not everyone believes that the best intepretation of the term is "beating". But it seems that it remains the majority view, and even with all of the precautions that are set in place for its application, I think that if the interpretaion of "beating" is held to be correct that it remains bad guidance.

[_ALI_]

Salam Grace Seeker

Sorry, I was just responding to Pixie's particular defense of the Qur'an, not the Qur'an itself. Though, now with you spelling it out, I guess I do have reservations about even what you portray the Qur'an to be saying, for I don't believe that last step to be appropriate behavior when the other person is n adult in her own right. If the first two steps don't resolve the issue, then separate not just beds, but houses. But the use of force would still be wrong.

By separating houses, do you mean divorce? Wouldn't divorce be worse for a woman than the third step i.e light beating? And there are many conditions of the beating like there shouldn't be any mark left, you should not hit the face etc. Do such conditions exist in slave/kid beating according to Christianity?
Peace

[index123]

the problem here christians have the right to overide what there own book says and define a new religion, on the other hand muslims have to stay true to there teachings... I have seen some christians complain about islam being unloving and not merciful towards unbelievers but if you actually look in the bible God takes the same attitude towards them there. Why don't we make a debate on this verse in the bible:

Kings 18:27 "But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"

So hmm is the bible claiming God is asking to drink/eat their own waste...

or have I misunderstood...

[Follower]

"But everyone requires discipline when they behave inappropriately, why is it uncomfortable that a husband disciplines his wife?"

Because hopefully she is a grown adult, the child has many dangers to learn about and be saved from.

But since the time that verse was written Jesus has come and from Jesus we are commanded to treat others as we treat ourselves, would we beat ourselves for a wrong doing?

Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

[Cern]

I believe in God but I don't believe in the use of religious text when it calls for the removal of common sense. One must remember to when these texts were written and what might have been common way of life fifteen hundred to two thousand years ago is not necessary today. I can count on one hand the amount of times I was struck (spanked) as a child. I was not beaten for I was loved, shown respect, and provided a disciplined environment. My father never struck his wife, nor my mother ever struck her husband. They provide to each other a loving and respectful environment. To beat a child or a spouse is an act of cowardliness for if one must lower themselves to such an act they themselves should be struck, but not by force, but by reason and shown that what they do is nothing more than a form of bullying, shown that they are weaker in mind and heart then those they strike.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:
i havnt really read this thread, but i did recently come across something useful

A Good resource on wife-beating and "marital rape" to use in debate with Christians
http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents.../herstory.html

got this from the ahlhadith forum btw...
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showt...t=wife+beating

[Clover]

I will not beat my children. I will spank them at a young age, happened to me, I turned out fine, loving my parents. I will not beat them though, it's not going to work. I know my sons will probably have testosterone boosts at 16ish, and try to fight me, but I will do what my dad did to me. Simply show them just cause I am old, I am not weak (we didn't fight, or even get physical, but I seen him pick up stuff, and decided 6"2 275, vs 5"6 189, just isn't a fight).

My children will be taught discipline at a young age, and will not need beatings.

[Follower]

I have read that sheep herders during the time of Jesus used rods to guide their sheep, keep them altogether and count them.

Another example of the very poetic speech used in the Holy Bible.

[MuslimCONVERT]

Salam
You defined beating as violent, repeated and spurred out of anger. Note that the following verse of the bible uses the term "beat"
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:14
And what about the treatment of slaves according to the given link?
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. (Exodus 20:20-21)
As for the beating of slaves in Islam
(Book 15, Number 4088:
Sahih Muslim)
Abu Mas’ud al-Ansari reported: When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas’ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah’s Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you.
Peace

Salaam y'akhi. Please don't hate me... :-) I love you for the sake of Allah [swt], but...

haha there is always a but after saying something nice... :-)

But I don't feel this is a fair approach to our Christian brethren. To hold up the most harsh verse of the Bible and compare it to one of the more beautiful teachings of Islam is not really fair, and really, what would it accomplish?

There are harsh verses of the Qu'ran, and harsh sayings of our Prophet Muhammad [saas], which are part of a greater sacred Law and context that must be understood fully, and it would not be fair if a Christian compared those to very beautiful verses from the Bible [even from the Jewish scripture, what christians call the 'Old Testament' -which you are here quoting- there are many beautiful teachings to be found]... we would object to that wholeheartedly.

Let us all try to be fair in our critiques, because this is the standard to which we are called. Allah [swt] says to us in the Qu'ran: “You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind [that is, for everyone, not just other Muslims, but Jews, Christians, etc.] You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allaah…” [Quran 3: 110]

And I say this to my self way before i say it to anyone else, in a spirit of understanding and mutual respect. :-)

[buddy1]

I have diciplined my children in the past, for example, jordan, my son, bit his twin sister jayda on the shoulder while playing in the garden, they were fighting over the swing! so, i smacked his behind and sent him to his room, i didnt smack him so hard he limped! or fell over, i smacked him him hard enough to know what he did to his sister was very wrong, but soft enough that it wasnt stinging for days!! he has never done it since and i dont think he would, he also came out of his room went straight up to his sister hugged and said sorry i love you really! so he learnt, and jayda watched so she knows what would happen if she did it!

[tango92]

I have diciplined my children in the past, for example, jordan, my son, bit his twin sister jayda on the shoulder while playing in the garden, they were fighting over the swing! so, i smacked his behind and sent him to his room, i didnt smack him so hard he limped! or fell over, i smacked him him hard enough to know what he did to his sister was very wrong, but soft enough that it wasnt stinging for days!! he has never done it since and i dont think he would, he also came out of his room went straight up to his sister hugged and said sorry i love you really! so he learnt, and jayda watched so she knows what would happen if she did it!

ha! all's well that ends well. I bet theyll be fighting by again by tomorrow ;D

[MuslimCONVERT]

Just because it goes along with the general topic of the forum, I believe it was Ali ibn Abu Talib [raa], nephew to our beloved Prophet Muhammad [saas], and the 4th of the Khalifah Rashidun [4 rightly guided ones], who advised Muslims to spoil their children for the first 7 years, train them [i.e. discipline them] for the next 7 years, and befriend them for the next 7 years.

I believe there is much wisdom in this advice. I was reading a Yahoo News article that said that children who are physically disciplined before the age of 7 are more likely to have anger issues according to studies. So perhaps it is good advice to spoil them [within reason, of course] for the first 7 years, and then, spend the next 7 years training them, when they are more mature, and thus, by the time they are teenagers, you have spoiled them, so they love you, and you have disciplined them, so they respect you, and at that critical juncture, by befriending them, then they have a fulfilled relationship with you that has come full circle.

Just my two riyals. ;-)