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Hugo
07-16-2009, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Don't measure the Quran with your Biblical methods.

Aside from the fact that there are indeed original copies in existence, you forget a very very important fact.

People have memorized the Quran by heart since its revelation. Thousands upon thousands of them. There was no variance in their recitations.
Well tell me where an original copy exist that was checked by prophet Mohammed?

Have you never heard of the qurra and there are at least 7 variant readings: Nafi, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Amir, Abu Amr etc. Indeed there was nothing like a common reading until Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Mujahid, Baghda linguist fixed a single system of consonants and placed limits on the variation on vowel sounds.

May I ask you what real difference does all this make - surely the Qu'ran has content, a message so why all the fuss about what cannot be proved. Will the message of the Qu'ran you have in your hand suddenly become worthless if you cannot trace the text back to the tiniest dot?
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جوري
07-16-2009, 07:28 PM
Yes each sura that was taken down was checked by the prophet as well he dictated the order of the ayas, for instance the last verse ever revealed went into the 2nd chapter with his authoritative direction as is with every verse and as stated a complete unbound copy was trusted to hafsah his wife ...

there are no 'variant readings' there are dialects that differ which were all unified to the queryishi dialect which is the most proper Arabic, and with each copy sent there was a hafith as well to teach people the proper pronunciation..

the word سنة for instance if not properly taught can be read as sunnah or sana
one means tradition the other means year or period of time, both written the same way both found in the quran. Thus the unified style and the different hafiths distributed to teach wasn't because of alleged different reading but to properly teach how it should be read and memorized..
since you know nothing of the Quran or Arabic (my mother tongue) I'd refrain from disseminating wrong info on an Islamic board of all places.. because not only will you be found out but humiliated publicly for frank ignorance!
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GreyKode
07-16-2009, 07:40 PM
Hmmm, I would like Mr. Hugo to show us some verses, and some of the variant readings and show us the "HUGE" difference that comes out of the different readings. :D
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جوري
07-16-2009, 07:41 PM
as an addendum.. no the message won't become worthless if the dots are missing.. again not only given the oral tradition of the Quran, but it is very easy for an Arabic speaker to read with or without the dots ..



anyone can recognize this no matter what style calligraphy it comes in with or without dots!
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GreyKode
07-16-2009, 07:45 PM
And by the way I've so far heard almost 5 readings to be honest, and the differences are nothing... things like

Musah
Museh
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Hugo
07-16-2009, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Hmmm, I would like Mr. Hugo to show us some verses, and some of the variant readings and show us the "HUGE" difference that comes out of the different readings. :D
First of all I never said there were "HUGE" differences that come out of variant readings. But let me ask you, were there variant readings or not. Professor Esack (ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7), page 116 and 117 lists 7 such reading - is he not telling the truth?
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جوري
07-16-2009, 07:52 PM
No, not telling the truth!
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GreyKode
07-16-2009, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
First of all I never said there were "HUGE" differences that come out of variant readings. But let me ask you, were there variant readings or not. Professor Esack (ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7), page 116 and 117 lists 7 such reading - is he not telling the truth?
I just agreed that there are variant readings, but again like I said, try and listen to those readings and you'll find its like the difference between how a briton, an Irish, an american pronounce the word "water".
Like Gossamer pointed out before, that it's more of a tribal dialect difference.
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Hugo
07-16-2009, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
And by the way I've so far heard almost 5 readings to be honest, and the differences are nothing... things like

Musah, Museh
This is helpful because my question is as I stated before, would the message of the Qu'ran become instantly worthless if one cannot trace it back to the tiniest dot or mark?

Like any language there are difficulties, for instance I am told the word harf can mean a coherent word, a single letter, a facet and the meaning of a word. Also to understand the words in Qu'ran you have to step back in time 1400 years to know exactly what bit meant at that time and that is why we have lexicons and look at the writing of the scholar at that time.
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Hugo
07-16-2009, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
No, not telling the truth!
Can you explain then why an eminent professor with an international reputation as a Muslim scholar and a visiting professor at Harvard should say such, according to you, an outright lie plus all the other authors he cites when he explains the nature of variant reading must also be lying?

AS someone has said here, we are not talking about variants that are completely different from each other but variant because in early manuscript the Arabic script was not fully developed. No one as far as I know is claiming that the whole message changes only that it took a while to standardise the writing of Arabic.
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جوري
07-16-2009, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Can you explain then why an eminent professor with an international reputation as a Muslim scholar and a visiting professor at Harvard should say such, according to you, an outright lie plus all the other authors he cites when he explains the nature of variant reading must also be lying?

AS someone has said here, we are not talking about variants that are completely different from each other but variant because in early manuscript the Arabic script was not fully developed. No one as far as I know is claiming that the whole message changes only that it took a while to standardise.

Esak isn't recognized as a Muslim scholar, unless you have a different definition of the terms than the rest of us? Bring the variant reading of the 'professor' here and we'll discuss them. As pointed above the 'bism illah ar'rahman arhaeem can be written in multitudes of ways and calligraphy and it has no bearing on the message or the prononuciation.

Go ahead since you are so scholary in the Quran ergo 'esack' I have no reservations whatsoever in showing your lies and his in one shot!
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AntiKarateKid
07-16-2009, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Well tell me where an original copy exist that was checked by prophet Mohammed?

Have you never heard of the qurra and there are at least 7 variant readings: Nafi, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Amir, Abu Amr etc. Indeed there was nothing like a common reading until Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Mujahid, Baghda linguist fixed a single system of consonants and placed limits on the variation on vowel sounds.

May I ask you what real difference does all this make - surely the Qu'ran has content, a message so why all the fuss about what cannot be proved. Will the message of the Qu'ran you have in your hand suddenly become worthless if you cannot trace the text back to the tiniest dot?
What a joke!

Qirâ'a pl. -ât recitation, recital (especially of the Koran); reading (also, e.g., of measuring instruments); manner of recitation, punctuation and vocalization of the Koranic text.

These are not variants and only your deceitful missionary sites would have you believe this. No Muslim in history has ever defined it as a "variant".

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...aat/green.html

And take your time reading it as it crushes ever single lie you use to try and make the Quran seem like it has variants. It never has and never will.

The transmission of the Qur'an after the death of Muhammad was essentially static, rather than organic. There was a single text, and nothing significant, not even allegedly abrogated material, could be taken out nor could anything be put in.[9]

Only the canonical Arabic text, as collected and compiled under the Caliph 'Uthman with the consensus of the companions (Ijma as-Sahaabah) may be recited, in one of the seven acceptable versions of the punctuation and vocalization (al-Qira'at as-Sab). These, though fixed only in the 4th century of the Hijrah, are taken to correspond to the seven Ahruf ("letters", "versions" or possibly "dialects") of the Koran which according to a hadith, the Prophet refered to as all having divine authority. In practice, only two of the seven readings have become customary: in Egypt, for example, the reading of Hafs according to the scholar Abu Bakr cAsim; and in the rest of Africa that of Nafî.[4]

The simple fact is that none of the differences, whether vocal or graphic, between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. Many are the differences which do not change the meaning at all, and the rest are differences with an effect on the meaning in the immediate context of the text itself, but without any significant wider influence on Muslim thought.[6]



It is impossible for the Quran to have been altered at all without disintegrating the religion. Allah specifically promises us that it will be preserved. And thus, if any variations were found between what was memorized and what was written, you would have immediately known.
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YusufNoor
07-17-2009, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Well tell me where an original copy exist that was checked by prophet Mohammed?

the scribes copied new revelation in the presence of the Prophet. when the Qur'an was put in writing "as a single unit" [it had always been written, and would always be amended while the Prophet was alive. his death put the seal on the Qur'an]; it [and it took some convincing for Abu Bakr to agree to] it was mandated that every Ayat that was entered had to have a corresponding copy that was written not only in the presence of the Prophet but contemporaneously to it's revelation.

Have you never heard of the qurra and there are at least 7 variant readings: Nafi, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Amir, Abu Amr etc. Indeed there was nothing like a common reading until Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Mujahid, Baghda linguist fixed a single system of consonants and placed limits on the variation on vowel sounds.

there were originally 10 different methods of pronunciation that were accepted during the life of the Prophet, there were 10 different dialects of Arabic. my understanding is that 7 remain with us today. in the time of Uthman, Islam was spreading and some tribe members were giving precedence to their own dialect. Uthman saw this as a problem and ordered a Qur'an with the vowel marks for the Quraysh dialect[ the dialect of the Prophet] to be the "preferred" version. the other known dialects are still allowable, but the Quraysh dialect is to be given preference.

May I ask you what real difference does all this make - surely the Qu'ran has content, a message so why all the fuss about what cannot be proved. Will the message of the Qu'ran you have in your hand suddenly become worthless if you cannot trace the text back to the tiniest dot?
Ehrman is a biblical scholar and studied under Bruce Metzger so he had the very best of teachers in terms of biblical New Testament studies so although I might or might not agree with him he is qualified to speak on NT issues.

Ibn Warraq studied in Edinburgh under Montgomery Watt a world class and outstanding teacher in Arabic studies. It follows the Ibn Warraq is qualified to speak on Islamic issues.

I am not sure what point you are making here. Is it that one has to be qualified academically to be able to say anything with authority?
Salaam

i just wanted to speak to this issue a wee bit. there is a BIG difference between Ehrman and ibn Warraq. i googled the fellow that you use this morning. for us, he is nothing but an apostate that we needn't give the time of day. NO WAY can he be considered a scholar of Islam to Mulslims [maybe to orientalists, but not us!]

where Ehrman IS different, and i am pointing this out to all, is that MOST of the points that Ehrman makes are agreed upon by Christian scholars. he himself is now an apostate [from Christianity, which might be why we like him so much!]

let me quote from Misquoting Jesus:

"What is striking. however, is that most readers - even those interested in Christianity, in the bible, in Biblical studies, both those who believe the Bible is inerrant and those who do not - know almost nothing about textual criticism. And it is not difficult to see why. Despite the fact that this has beena topic of sustained scholarship now for more than 3 hundred years, there is scarcely a single book written about if for the lay audience..."

i can explain this aspect a bit further IF someone is interested.

to sum, Mr Ehrman, while an apostate, teaches and studies and is an expert on Textual Criticism and NOT an apostate's version of Textual criticism; which would be where he differs from ibn Warraq.

i have to make the schedule for work tomorrow at this point.

wa Salaam
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جوري
07-17-2009, 12:40 AM
^^ Thank you both, I don't have time at all of late to belabor the issue with this guy while issuing faithful to history information so as to not deprive people of the truth. I appreciate your research...

:w:
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StudentMuslim
07-17-2009, 03:55 AM
very interesting thread, I have never looked too much in to the authenticity of Quran
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- IqRa -
07-17-2009, 01:39 PM
^ And you shouldn't, either.
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Hugo
07-17-2009, 01:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
What a joke!
Qirâ'a pl. -ât recitation, recital (especially of the Koran); reading (also, e.g., of measuring instruments); manner of recitation, punctuation and vocalization of the Koranic text. These are not variants and only your deceitful missionary sites would have you believe this. No Muslim in history has ever defined it as a "variant".

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...aat/green.html

And take your time reading it as it crushes ever single lie you use to try and make the Quran seem like it has variants. It never has and never will.

The transmission of the Qur'an after the death of Muhammad was essentially static, rather than organic. There was a single text, and nothing significant, not even allegedly abrogated material, could be taken out nor could anything be put in.[9]

Only the canonical Arabic text, as collected and compiled under the Caliph 'Uthman with the consensus of the companions (Ijma as-Sahaabah) may be recited, in one of the seven acceptable versions of the punctuation and vocalization (al-Qira'at as-Sab). These, though fixed only in the 4th century of the Hijrah, are taken to correspond to the seven Ahruf ("letters", "versions" or possibly "dialects") of the Koran which according to a hadith, the Prophet refered to as all having divine authority. In practice, only two of the seven readings have become customary: in Egypt, for example, the reading of Hafs according to the scholar Abu Bakr cAsim; and in the rest of Africa that of Nafî.[4]

The simple fact is that none of the differences, whether vocal or graphic, between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. Many are the differences which do not change the meaning at all, and the rest are differences with an effect on the meaning in the immediate context of the text itself, but without any significant wider influence on Muslim thought.[6]

It is impossible for the Quran to have been altered at all without disintegrating the religion. Allah specifically promises us that it will be preserved. And thus, if any variations were found between what was memorized and what was written, you would have immediately known.
What "deceitful Missionary sites" are you talking about, what you have written here more or less corresponds to what I said in my post and I quoted a Muslim Scholar by name, his book and even the page numbers.

Even here you talk about 'differences' and 'significance' but Skye has denied all this so you cannot agree even among yourselves.
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AntiKarateKid
07-17-2009, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
What "deceitful Missionary sites" are you talking about, what you have written here more or less corresponds to what I said in my post and I quoted a Muslim Scholar by name, his book and even the page numbers.

Even here you talk about 'differences' and 'significance' but Skye has denied all this so you cannot agree even among yourselves.
Address what is written in my post and stop bouncing around. You'd also be wise to drop your constant appeals to authority (the scholar says so!). Moreover, I don't see where Skye has disagreed with me but even if she did, it doesn't matter. As you can see from my post, you're assertions are dust desperate attempts at discrediting an established aspect of the Quran.
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جوري
07-17-2009, 07:46 PM
As stated and I don't wish to belabor this.. if your scholar with page numbers had something so ground breaking that should shake the rest of us to the core why don't you write it out here so we can examine it closer? are you afraid that it will be ripped into?
if you'd bother with recommended reading (A history of Quranic text from revelation to compilation) you wouldn't be so desperate for straw man on every post.. Or are you afraid to dispel the myth that has been spoon fed you for so long, the one that makes your god lose in a wrestling match and immolate himself on the cross?

your logic or lack thereof incites pity and ignites my anger over time wasted to something that could be easily remedied with proper knowledge..
Like someone who insists to treat his encephalopathy with herbal remedies citing age old wisdom from his forefathers of yore which can be taken and dumped in the trash in face of sound incontrovertible science!
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Zafran
07-17-2009, 07:59 PM
Yeah address the stuff that is presented to you rather then talking around the topic. Otherwise its preety much a waste of time.
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Hugo
07-17-2009, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Address what is written in my post and stop bouncing around. You'd also be wise to drop your constant appeals to authority (the scholar says so!). Moreover, I don't see where Skye has disagreed with me but even if she did, it doesn't matter. As you can see from my post, you're assertions are dust desperate attempts at discrediting an established aspect of the Quran.
I stated where I got the information from and it is as far as I can see a very reliable source and as a rule I rarely quote from a website because they are more often than not unreliable. I am not appealing to authority, I am not looking for a ruling I am just pointing out the facts about transmission.

YOU say its a fact, an established fact that there has been perfect transmission but I have shown that many do not agree with you and can provide evidence to back it up. If the message of the Qu'ran can be discredited by showing there were variant reading then it has no message of any value and no one I know thinks that. If you whole faith hangs on a single impossible to verify thread of absolute and perfect transmission then you are ignoring its message.
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Hugo
07-17-2009, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Address what is written in my post and stop bouncing around. You'd also be wise to drop your constant appeals to authority (the scholar says so!). Moreover, I don't see where Skye has disagreed with me but even if she did, it doesn't matter. As you can see from my post, you're assertions are dust desperate attempts at discrediting an established aspect of the Quran.

It is impossible for the Quran to have been altered at all without disintegrating the religion. Allah specifically promises us that it will be preserved. And thus, if any variations were found between what was memorized and what was written, you would have immediately known.
I show part of the insert you made earlier in bold. I do this to check if it is correct, if it is in fact Islamic doctrine and without accepting it you cannot be a Muslim. That is, if anyone can show the slightest variation, error or any kind; grammatical, poetic - anything then Islam collapses - is that Islamic teaching?
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جوري
07-17-2009, 08:10 PM
you got the info from a 'reliable source' and we should take your word for it because you are an IT tech?
reliable means authentic & amongst other things provable not a paragraph by some shmuck with a title next to his name in under water basket weaving.... Dr. John Martin is a brilliant man, yet all his work on stealth viruses was not only dismissed but cost him his license to practice because he couldn't prove his research to the scientific community thus I'd like to see not only a critique of the Quran but a before and after manuscript with the errors.. in other words, show me some of those original manuscripts that have been made manifest only to 'esack' that the rest of us are either unaware of or hiding which were later amended to reflect something different and now the whole are using the wrong Quran. If you can't put up then shut up!

given how little you know about Islam and the proper art of a debate, I suggest you become less free in peddling terminology that doesn't assert but serves to appease your bruised ego!
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Hugo
07-17-2009, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
you got the info from a 'reliable source' and we should take your word for it because you are an IT tech?
reliable means authentic & amongst other things provable not a paragraph by some shmuck with a title next to his name in under water basket weaving.... Dr. John Martin is a brilliant man, yet all his work on stealth viruses was not only dismissed but cost him his license to practice because he couldn't prove his research to the scientific community thus I'd like to see not only a critique of the Quran but a before and after manuscript with the errors.. in other words, show me some of those original manuscripts that have been made manifest only to 'esack' that the rest of us are either unaware of or hiding which were later amended to reflect something different and now the whole are using the wrong Quran. If you can't put up then shut up!

given how little you know about Islam and the proper art of a debate, I suggest you become less free in peddling terminology that doesn't assert but serves to appease your bruised ego!
I gave you the source so that YOU can check it out, I regard professor Esack as reliable. If you do not that is a matter for you but its hardly a considered or rational response to a Harvard Professor to call him 'shmuck', all that does is betray your closed mindset.

I know little about Dr Martin but it was a question of ethics not brilliance that led to his downfall so I cannot see what point if any you are making.

I cannot show you any manuscript of the Qu'ran because there are none from the time of the prophet. If you have copies then tell us where they are. Let me quote again Esack.

"Arabic script as we know it today was unknown in the Prophet's time and the Qur'an was recorded in a scripta defectiva made up of simple lines and strokes. Early Qur'anic Arabic thus lacked precision because distinguishing between consonants was impossible given the absence of diacritical marks (a'jam) by which one recognizes these in modern Arabic. Furthermore, the vowelling marks (tashkil) to indicate prolongation or vowels were also absent. All of this made for endless possibilities in meanings and error in transcription. The Arabic script as we know it today, the scripta plena, with its pointed texts and being fully vowelled, was not perfected until the middle of the ninth century".(See 'The Qu'ran' ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7, pages 110 and 111)

Professor Esack also show that there were several Qu'ran variants citing early Muslim Scholars such as Al Ashtah, Ibn Dawud and and Ibn al-Anbari who all dealt with these variant codices. In Kufa for example, the version of 'Abd Hillah ibn Mas'ud remained in vogue for some time and there are indications that he refused Uthman's instructions to stop teaching his version and to destroy copies of it.
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جوري
07-17-2009, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I gave you the source so that YOU can check it out, I regard professor Esack as reliable. If you do not that is a matter for you but its hardly a considered or rational response to a Harvard Professor to call him 'shmuck', all that does is betray your closed mindset.
If I am making an argument with assertion, I'd better do my homework and not delegate it to other people. If you had something of substance to impart as per esack then bring it here with a before and after manuscript and the lone folks who have kept on their ways using vague idioms?
I know little about Dr Martin but it was a question of ethics not brilliance that led to his downfall so I cannot see what point if any you are making.
You know nothing about Dr. John Martin, not just little and indeed he is a brilliant scientist given all his awards prior to his breakdown you know little of his work, as you know very little of many people's work but like to strut with bravado see who is ignorant and can lap your crap up.. His work has nothing whatsoever to do with ethics, it has to do with what a man imagines in an abstract fashion and what he makes manifest through physical provable lab work!

I cannot show you any manuscript of the Qu'ran because there are none from the time of the prophet. If you have copies then tell us where they are. Let me quote again Esack.
Ah, there are none you say? yet you insist that there were some that differed and my question is, how? in order for that statement to be correct there has to be an object of comparison!
such objects must have come from the middle east, and would have been known about by traditional Islamic scholars.. how is it that Esak has a secondary opinion that differs from the rest? is it that he has an agenda not dissimilar to yours?

"Arabic script as we know it today was unknown in the Prophet's time and the Qur'an was recorded in a scripta defectiva made up of simple lines and strokes. Early Qur'anic Arabic thus lacked precision because distinguishing between consonants was impossible given the absence of diacritical marks (a'jam) by which one recognizes these in modern Arabic. Furthermore, the vowelling marks (tashkil) to indicate prolongation or vowels were also absent. All of this made for endless possibilities in meanings and error in transcription. The Arabic script as we know it today, the scripta plena, with its pointed texts and being fully vowelled, was not perfected until the middle of the ninth century".(See 'The Qu'ran' ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7, pages 110 and 111)
Ah, and I have indeed I have showed you in bold Arabic text on the previous page a Quranic phrase with and without the tashkil (which by the way most keyboards come without) as well with or without the dotting and asserted that it is quite easy for any Arabic speaker to read it with or without it, rather such 'tashkil' was done so that non-Arabic speakers can learn proper parsing. and the same reason why with each copy that was sent to the newly Islamic regions were also sent with an Arabic Hafith to ensure proper tutelage. Folks didn't even need to see copies of the Quran at all if they had learned it by heart.. The Language of the Quran is the language upon which proper qawa3id and i3rab are based, it is what is considered standardized not idiomatic and it is what everyone learns in school. People don't for instance join an English class and learn Ebonics, even though they might understand it, they don't use it on official documents. The Quran is in its official standardized queryshi form from the moment of revelation until today and anyone reading the Quran conforms to that standard.. furthermore the fact that he or you know that early manuscript don't have such tashkil is that in and of itself a testament that the earliest manuscript do indeed exist (which actually they do as I have not only recommended the reading with copies of said manuscripts but have also shown them quite extensively here on board) and it makes for a complete negation of you alleging that the earliest manuscript aren't in existence today!
Since you have no proof of what you allege of different copies of the Quran or different recitation but wish really badly that there were so you'd not be found out for a fool and not a scholar, then I suggest you button up to spare yourself any further public humiliation?
Professor Esack also show that there were several Qu'ran variants citing early Muslim Scholars such as Al Ashtah, Ibn Dawud and and Ibn al-Anbari who all dealt with these variant codices. In Kufa for example, the version of 'Abd Hillah ibn Mas'ud remained in vogue for some time and there are indications that he refused Uthman's instructions to stop teaching his version and to destroy copies of it.
If the en vogue copy was present for sometime then why is it that the entire Muslim world whether 90% sunni or 10% shia have the exact same copy of the Quran with unified reading where no other idiom is used? an example is someone from Egypt would say izyek, someone from the gulf says eish loonik, someone from Lebanon says keyf halik, we all understand each other but no such applications is made when it comes to the Quran.. until such a time you show us a before and after you can take your active imagination and let it lead you astray on some other path.. since this one has proven a cul de sac!

all the best
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جوري
07-17-2009, 09:25 PM
as an addendum to the above, here is an Arabic keyboard to show that no such tashkil exists on them:

http://www.arabic-keyboard.org/

that proper parsing in Arabic grammar is dictated from the words themselves in their context.. of course you'd have to know something about Arabic to understand how that actually works and not elicit a hearty guffaw from the rest of us Arabic speakers.
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AntiKarateKid
07-17-2009, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I stated where I got the information from and it is as far as I can see a very reliable source and as a rule I rarely quote from a website because they are more often than not unreliable. I am not appealing to authority, I am not looking for a ruling I am just pointing out the facts about transmission.

YOU say its a fact, an established fact that there has been perfect transmission but I have shown that many do not agree with you and can provide evidence to back it up. If the message of the Qu'ran can be discredited by showing there were variant reading then it has no message of any value and no one I know thinks that. If you whole faith hangs on a single impossible to verify thread of absolute and perfect transmission then you are ignoring its message.
I have shown you that what you claim to be variants or what have you, are indeed NOT. Read what I wrote and see that no matter where you got your info from, it has been refuted by Muslim scholars.

Moreover, If I suspect that you are cherry picking the comments of the Muslim scholar you keep mentioning and fail to read his whole commentary.

Take a gander at my links and see that you are wrong. They are not VARIANTS, they are differences in PRONUNCIATION of the same WORDS! Get with it.
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StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 12:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
First of all I never said there were "HUGE" differences that come out of variant readings. But let me ask you, were there variant readings or not. Professor Esack (ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7), page 116 and 117 lists 7 such reading - is he not telling the truth?
hhhmmm... Isn't Professor Essak talking more about minor variations as opposed to major changes?????? AT least that is my understanding!
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StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by T.I.A
^ And you shouldn't, either.
May I dare ask why? I believe if you get evidence of something, your belief in that doctrine is enhanced. Isn't that the case?

Plus I have read so much negative stuff in this forum. I am wondering if I am at the right place or not? Are you guys open to discussion? Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.
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Zafran
07-18-2009, 12:35 AM
[QUOTE=StudentMuslim;1187509]May I dare ask why? I believe if you get evidence of something, your belief in that doctrine is enhanced. Isn't that the case?

Plus I have read so much negative stuff in this forum. I am wondering if I am at the right place or not? Are you guys open to discussion? [B]Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.[QUOTE]

good idea would be to make a thread about it
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StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 12:41 AM
Brother Zafran,

So are you trying to say Sir that we should have blind faith and never question it? When Quran actually asks us for "Mushahida" observation. I would like to hear your response sir.
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 12:46 AM
My Research indicates that the Qura'n in Tashkent (Often attributed to third Caliph Hadrazt Uthma'n (R.A)) was written in second century Hijra, or 8th century A.D. But there are so many doubts. The carbon-dating of a folio from this manuscript was carried out at Oxford. The result showed a 68% probability of a date between 640 CE and 765 CE, and a 95% probability of a date between 595 CE and 855 CE.[5] Commenting on this result, Rezvan noted that the paleographic dating of this manuscript also indicated a date at the turn of the eight / ninth century CE.[6]

Although the dates generated by the radiocarbon dating at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

It is quite possible that it was hadrat Uthma'n's(R.A) Qura'n.
Reply

Zafran
07-18-2009, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
Brother Zafran,

So are you trying to say Sir that we should have blind faith and never question it? When Quran actually asks us for "Mushahida" observation. I would like to hear your response sir.
Salaam

no I was talking about

I am wondering if I am at the right place or not? Are you guys open to discussion? Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.
peace
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 12:48 AM
Brother Zafran,

I am sorry I misread your post. Thank you very much. Wasala'm.
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.

Going toward islam or moving away is a solo journey not a community effort. Better to have one established highly educated Muslim than 10 weak in knowledge, will power and study.. they do the whole more harm than good...


perhaps we are closed minded? who is to say, perhaps you've not been here long enough to acknowledge every intimate forum detail?
in fact we have many sections that are for brisk reading before starting a debate such as the 'discover islam' section... certainly one should have some minor knowledge in the field in which s/he is to gauge before getting into a debate!

whatever the case certainly no one is forced to stay on board.. anyone who doesn't like it here has the freedom not to be here!

all the best!
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-18-2009, 12:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
My Research indicates that the Qura'n in Tashkent (Often attributed to third Caliph Hadrazt Uthma'n (R.A)) was written in second century Hijra, or 8th century A.D. But there are so many doubts. The carbon-dating of a folio from this manuscript was carried out at Oxford. The result showed a 68% probability of a date between 640 CE and 765 CE, and a 95% probability of a date between 595 CE and 855 CE.[5] Commenting on this result, Rezvan noted that the paleographic dating of this manuscript also indicated a date at the turn of the eight / ninth century CE.[6]

Although the dates generated by the radiocarbon dating at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

It is quite possible that it was hadrat Uthma'n's(R.A) Qura'n.
What you have to remember is that the Quran was memorized by thousands and thousands of Sahaba. All Uthman did was choose the original pronunciations (everyone had the same words) and compile it all in written form.

When it was compiled, not a single one of the Sahaba objected to its contents. This is because it was the same as what everyone had memorized. It was impossible to alter the Quran or to "lose" parts of it.

Moreover, it is important to have evidence to back up your faith brother. But in order to question certain aspects of the Quran, you have to first have a more thorough understanding of how the verses were revealed, their context, etc. A person may find that they get in over their heads quickly because of the amount of material being cited or required for the discussion of said question. That being said, keep studying and you'll gind all the evidence you require.
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 12:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
My Research indicates that the Qura'n in Tashkent (Often attributed to third Caliph Hadrazt Uthma'n (R.A)) was written in second century Hijra, or 8th century A.D. But there are so many doubts. The carbon-dating of a folio from this manuscript was carried out at Oxford. The result showed a 68% probability of a date between 640 CE and 765 CE, and a 95% probability of a date between 595 CE and 855 CE.[5] Commenting on this result, Rezvan noted that the paleographic dating of this manuscript also indicated a date at the turn of the eight / ninth century CE.[6]

Although the dates generated by the radiocarbon dating at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

It is quite possible that it was hadrat Uthma'n's(R.A) Qura'n.






The Qur'anic Manuscripts

There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press). There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.
The dig at the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque. The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on Ṣanʿāʾ. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.
The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are many Qur'anic manuscripts written in the hijazi script which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. Many more manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra.We will be showing only a few examples below.
A few more examples of the 1st and 1st / 2nd century Qur'anic manuscripts can be found in the book Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ (1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah). This book is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Kuwait National Museum, with articles by Hussa Sabah Salim al-Sabah, G. R. Puin, M. Jenkins, U. Dreibholz in both Arabic and English. It is expected that the Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts will throw a great deal of light on the early Islamic history of calligraphy and illumination and even the various ahruf (they were seven) in which the Qur'an was revealed.
A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large maṣāḥif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first maṣāḥif were written. There are also examples of later maṣāḥif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!
As a matter of caution, we stress the fact that we are only showing a single leaf of the manuscripts in the cases below. A manuscript may contain additional sūrahs. The reader is advised to go through the references for additional information.
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The Arabic Papyri | Arabic & Islamic Inscriptions | The Islamic Coins
1. The Qur'anic Script & Palaeography

On The Origins Of The Kufic Script
The Christian missionaries have claimed that the Kufic script originated not earlier than 150 years after hijra. They have argued that it is also the view of both Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi. This article is a devastating refutation of their claims.

The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558, A. Jones, Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.
It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier.

From Alphonse Mingana To Christoph Luxenberg: Arabic Script & The Alleged Syriac Origins Of The Qur'an
A path-breaking discourse or is it yet another headline grabbing exercise? You decide!

Concise List Of Arabic Manuscripts Of The Qur'ān Attributable To The First Century Hijra.
The study of ancient manuscripts of the Qur'an is steadily gathering pace. In decades past, a few scholars have compiled lists of Qur'anic manuscripts attributable to the 1st century hijra. Although helpful, these lists contain only the barest details, usually only the name of the manuscript concerned or sometimes even less. With this in mind, we have constructed this document that contains additional details providing further insights into these valuable manuscripts, accompanied by full bibliographic references. A discussion of how scholars date early Qur'anic manuscripts and an assessment of the value of these manuscripts is also provided along with some detailed mathematical calculations. Should one ponder over this list, they will come to the appreciation scholars involved in this field of study suffer from an embarrassment of riches. Quite simply, there is no other work from the Late Antiquity that comes close to the Qur'an in terms of the number of their earliest manuscripts including textual content.

Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur'ānic Manuscripts
Radiocarbon dating of ancient Qur'anic manuscripts in the literature is very rare. Can radiocarbon dating provide more accurate results than traditional palaeographic techniques and associated methods? A discussion of the scientific principles underpinning this radiometric dating technique, together with some practical examples from actual Qur'anic manuscripts, highlights the strengths and weaknesses of this procedure as compared to more traditional palaeographic based methods.

Dated Texts Containing The Qur’an From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.
The corpus of dated texts containing the Qur'an from 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE proving the early codification of the Qur'an in Arabic.
2. Examples Of The Qur'anic Manuscripts
THE ʿUTHMĀNIC MANUSCRIPTS
No discussion about the Qur'anic manuscripts begins without the mention of the ʿUthmānic manuscripts of the Qur'an. Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph ʿUthmān, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed to ʿUthmān. However, it is to be added that there is a disagreement between the scholars whether they are truly ʿUthmānic. Some Western scholars have rejected the Qur'anic manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān as "pious forgeries" without showing any scientific evidence (i.e., study of the parchment, script, ink etc.). This itself is unscientific to an extreme. We will discuss some important manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān below.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
This manuscript was written in Kufic script and contains 408 folios. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an. Only two folios are missing. The manuscript shows the script, illumination and marking of vowels that are from the Umayyad times (i.e., late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra).

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript written in the late the ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript.
FIRST CENTURY HIJRA
Below are the examples of the 1st century hijra manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī and the Kufic scripts.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From Mid-1st Century Of Hijra.
Perhaps the most significant manuscript of the Qur'an palimpsest so far discovered at Ṣanʿāʾ, this codex is datable to the middle of the first century of hijra and consists of 36 folios. The leaves from codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 have appeared under the hammer at auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonham's; the most recent one at Christie's in 2008 fetching a remarkable sum of £2,200,000, around fifteen times the estimated asking price. This codex exemplifies the principal tendencies of the early ḥijāzī script and is of tremendous importance regarding the textual transmission of the Qur'an, Arabic palaeography, codicology and other related disciplines. Below is a detailed description of some of the folios from this codex.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-25.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex consists of 29 folios. There are few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The verses divisions indicate the beginning of the usage of simple ornamentation which is nothing but adjacent strokes. An interesting feature of this early ijāzī manuscript is the presence of sūrah al-Fātiḥah which is followed immediately by sūrah al-Baqarah. The presence of sūrah al-Fātiḥah is rare in the Qur'ans from first century hijra, the only other known example being the “Great Umayyad Qur'ān”, DAM 20-33.1, also from Ṣanʿāʾ.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-29.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. This codex was probably written by at least two different copyists as the scripts differ in various folios. There are few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The sūrahs are separated by simple ornaments. The are 9 published folios of this codex but it is believed that others also exist. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Arabe 328a – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris.
This is one of the most important manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī script from 1st century hijra. It has 58 folios; 56 of them at the the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and one each at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana (Vat. Ar. 1605) and the Nasser David Khalili Collection (Acc. no. KFQ 60). This manuscript has 58 folios which contains about 26% of the total text of the Qur'an. The discussion on the folio at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana is available here.

MS. Or. 2165 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From The 1st Century Hijra In The British Library.
Hailed as by the earlier keepers of it as "probably the earliest Qur'an ever brought to Europe", the British Library says that it is the "oldest Qur'an manuscript" in their possession. This manuscript is written in the ḥijāzī (or ma'il) script. It is usually dated around the mid-second century of hijra. However, a recent study by Yasin Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the first century Qur'anic manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. This manuscript has 121 folios which contains about 53% of the total text of the Qur'an.

The “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 20-33.1) From The Time Of Caliph Al-Walīd, Late 1st Century Hijra.
This monumental and the earliest Kufic Qur'anic manuscript, perhaps one of the most well-studied and is dated to the last decade of the 1st century of hijra, around 710 - 715 CE, in the reign of the Umayyad Caliph al-Walīd. This manuscript is unique in the sense that it open with a group of full page images. These images are the only known Qur'an illustrations and are absolutely unique among extant Qur'an manuscripts. Apparently 25(?) folios from this codex survive. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

The “Damascus Umayyad Qur'ān” TIEM ŞE 321 – 1st Century Of Hijra.
This manuscript was dated by Déroche using art-historical methods to the time after 72 AH / 691-692 CE or more probably during the last quater of the 1st (early 8th) century AH. It is written in Kufic or perhaps late ḥijāzī script. The letters are spread over the entire page due to an extensive use of elongation of horizontal connections or to a regular spacing of the letters or groups of letters irrespective of being part of the word or not. The sūrah headings are illuminated. The illumination of this Qur'an relies on motifs which find their parallels with the mosaics at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. The codex has 33+ folios and is located at the Türk ve İslam Eserleri Müzesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey.

The ‘Mingana Palimpsest’ – A Manuscript Containing The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
Mrs. Agnes Smith Lewis was the first scholar to publish this unique palimpsest that has scriptio superior which is a Christian material (Arabic Christian homilies) and the scriptio inferior consisting of the Qur'anic verses. Mingana presented a full transcription of the Qur'anic text of the scriptio inferior of the manuscript, with the parallel text from the present day Qur'an. But his claim of "variants" in the Qur'anic text has come under suspicion partly because of his own history of being involved in suspected forgeries. Recent study by Fedeli on this manuscript has confirmed that the "inevitable and easy conclusion" is that all of Mingana's transcription can be suspected to be wrong. A recent surge of interest in this manuscript is due to the fact that the scriptio inferior was written in the ḥijāzī script.

Inv. No. LNS 19 CAab – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
This manuscript bears a striking resemblence to the British Musuem Ms. Or. 2165. Just like the latter, the former is not vocalised. The consonants are frequently differentiated by dashes. Six oval dots ranked in three pairs punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a red hollow circle surrounded by dots. Even the size of the folio is same as those found in Ms. Or. 2165. Thus, it can be said with reasonable certainty that both Ms. Or. 2165 and LNS 19 CAab belong to the same codex. There is one folio in this collection. Located at Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah, Kuwait.

Ms. Or. Fol. 4313 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex has 8 folios. Manuscript on parchment. The muṣḥaf is not vocalised. The consonants are differentiated by dashes. Six oval dots ranked in three pairs usually punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a hollow circle surrounded by dots. Folios located at Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin, Germany, and Dār al-Kutub al-Misriyya, Cairo.

An ‘Umayyad’ Fragment Of The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
This private-owned fragment of the Qur'an was recently published by Yasin Dutton. On the basis of palaeography and radiocarbon analysis, he dated it to the second half of the 1st century of hijra / late 7th or early 8th century CE.

A Qur'ānic Manuscript In The Ḥijazi Script From c. 700 CE.
Eight folios (one fragmentary), 20-27 lines to the page written in brown ḥijāzī script, diacritical marks, where present, consists of oval dots or angled dashes, no vowel points, clusters of brown ink dots to indicate verse divisions, circular devices consisting of green and red dots every ten verses, one long, narrow rectangular panel of green and red decoration with a circular marginal device consisting of coloured dots on final folio, probably to indicate the sūrah heading of sūrah al-Nisa, leaves sewn together with original stitching. It contains sūrah āl-‘Imrān, verses 34-184.

A Qur'ānic Leaf In The Ḥijāzī Script On Vellum, 1st Century Of Hijra.
It is written in the ḥijāzī script in brown ink on vellum. No vocalization, verses indicated occasionally by four dots; a few dots and angled dashes indicating diacritical marks and consonants.

A Perg. 2 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. Yellowish, thin parchment with strong damage. Located at the Austrian National Library, Vienna

A Perg. 213 – A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the ḥijāzī script. Two folios extant.

A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses 7 Through 12.
A manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain, written in the Kufic script.

P. Michaélidès No. 32 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Collection George Michaélidès, Cairo (Egypt) written in the Kufic(?) script.

A Ma‘il Manuscript in Kuwait – A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Tariq Rajab Museum, Kuwait. Written in the ma‘il script [External Link].
FIRST / SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Mixt. 917 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
This manuscript was written in either the late ḥijāzī or kufic script and contains 105 folios. The extant folios contain about 27% of the text of the Qur'an. A rare form of punctuation is also displayed in this manuscript corroborating its eighth century CE dating.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-28.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Of Hijra.
This codex, found in the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, has 60 folios. There is a clear definition of the text area and of the distance between the lines which has given a uniform appearance, a feature which is generally uncommon in the ḥijāzī manuscripts. Diacritical marks are frequent. It has Qur'an 2:1–71:14 (fragmented, not sequential text).

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-18.3 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the late ḥijāzī script. The codex consists of 16 folios. Few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The vertical format is a common feature of most Qur'ans written in the ḥijāzī style. This example is an exception, where the horizontal format contradicts somewhat vertical features of the script.

Surah al-Isra' (17) Verses Number: From 20 To 22 And Part Of 23.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Mumtahinah (60) Verses Number: Part Of 4 To 8 And Part Of 9.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-30.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
It is written in the late ḥijāzī script. There are about 32 lines per page. Few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The indication of the end of every tenth verses has been added later. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 9 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-32.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the late ḥijāzī script. About 12 lines per page. It has few diacritical marks but the vocalization is probably contemporary. The style bears many features common to both ḥijāzī and early Kufic, or perhaps show a transition from the former to the latter. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 7 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-29.2 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
This beautiful codex is one of the two Qur'ans found in Ṣanʿāʾ which resemble the monumental codex from Syria, the “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ – DAM 20-33.1). Their similarity in size, proportion, number of lines, script and illumination suggest that the “Great Umayyad Qur'an” may have served as a model. The fragments from this codex reflect the Syrian codex in quality rather than features. The letters are spaciously distributed and once connected individual letters tend to blend with their neighbours. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 10 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex TIEM ŞE 12995 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The interesting part of this manuscript is the use of different colour of inks. Four varieties of ink have been used for the copy of the text. In addition of the most common used brown ink, the scribe also employed a red, an orange and a green one. These inks are not connected with the beginning or the end of sūrahs. The usage of inks does not follow any rule or sequence. However, an interesting patterning of the coloured inks is applied to the last three lines of a sūrah and the first three lines of the next one. For example, the end of sūrah al-Nisā is written in green and contrasts wiith the first and third lines of sūrah al-Mā'idah which are written in red, the second one being also in green. Only 22 folios of this codex survive. It is written in the reading of Ibn ʿĀmir. Located at the Türk ve İslam Eserleri Müzesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
This famous manuscript, also known as the Samarqand manuscript, housed in Tashkent, is commonly attributed to Caliph ‘Uthman. A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ‘Uthman's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

A Perg. 203: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 201: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 186: A Qur'anic Manuscript From Middle Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 202: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 207: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 27: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The End Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in themashq script.

One Of The Earliest Dated Qur'anic Manuscript (107 AH / 725 CE) At Egyptian National Library.
An example of one of the earliest dated Qur'anic manuscripts at the Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo (Egypt).

A Kufic Manuscript in the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies - A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript from the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies, Saudi Arabia, written in Kufic script [External Link].
SECOND / THIRD CENTURY HIJRA

Surah Al-Ma'idah, Surah al-An‘am. Part Of 117 (Surah Al-Ma'idah) To Part Of 1 Of Surah Al-An‘am.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Baqarah. Part Of 80 To Part Of 81.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Mursalat. 5 To 26 And Part Of 27.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
SOME UNIQUE MANUSCRIPTS
EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS

Professor Brannon Wheeler's Qur'an Manuscripts Page
It contains a healthy collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dated from 1st century of hijra onwards till 14th century of hijra in various scripts such as ma'il, kufic, thuluth, bihari, diwani, andalusi, maghribi and nastaliq.

The Schøyen Collection, National Library Of Norway
It has some good collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dating from as early as 2nd century of hijra.
3. The Qira'at In The Qur'anic Manuscripts Early Qur'anic manuscripts, unlike the modern printed editions, rarely contain information of the Qira'at in which they were written. Deciphering the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts is a recent endeavour and a very tedious task. Scholars like Nabia Abbott had only mentioned about Qira'at in the manuscripts in a very cursory way. Recently, in-depth studies have been undertaken to decipher the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts by Dr. Yasin Dutton of University of Edinburgh. He has been looking into various Qur'anic manuscripts to understand the purpose of using various coloured dots in the writing of the Qur'an and studying the consonantal structure (where dotting is nearly absent as in early Qur'ans written in ḥijāzī or ma'il script) to find out the Qira'at in which the Qur'an manuscript was written. Here are a few examples of the manuscripts in which the Qira'at has been identified.We will also mention Dr. Dutton's publications and provide a brief overview. This section is primarily for those who have access to journals in their libraries.

Y. Dutton, "An Early Muṣḥaf According To The Reading Of Ibn ‘Amir", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2001, Volume III (no. I), pp. 71-89.
This study is based on 1st century Qur'anic manuscript "Arabe 328a" in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, written in ḥijazi (or ma'il) script. This manuscript has enough material to be able to ascertain the reading it represents. This manuscript is almost devoid of dotting and hence the consonantal structure is used to determine the Qira'at and it was found to be that of Ibn ‘Amir (d. 118 / 736) - one of the reading later to be declared indisputably mutawatir by Ibn Mujahid (d. 324 / 926). This study is first of its kind on early Qur'anic manuscripts.

Y. Dutton, "Some Notes On The British Library's ‘Oldest Qur'an Manuscript’ (Or. 2165)", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2004, Volume VI (no. 1), pp. 43-71.
The study by Dr. Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to first century manuscript Arabe 328a in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and was written in the Qira'at of Ibn ‘Amir. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being the safer.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part I", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 1999, Volume I (no. I), pp. 115-140.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part II", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2000, Volume II (no. I), pp. 1-24.
This two-part detailed study is done on the Qur'anic manuscripts from Bodleian Library (Oxford) that date from 3rd / 4th century of hijra. The broad conclusions of this study are:

  1. Variants, including shadhdh variants, are not only marked, but in a sense, highlighted by the use of different coloured dots.
  2. The presence of shadhdh variants alongside Seven, Ten or Fourteen Qira'a suggests that the shadhdh variants were treated as seriously as the main readings by those responsible for vocalization.
  3. The vocalized manuscript enables us to have some idea of the reading, or readings, represented. Where there are only single or limited folios available this is not usually possible, but where there is either a distinctive feature, or enough of a sufficiently well-vocalized manuscript, it is often possible to fix the reading with some precision.
4. The Qur'anic Manuscripts In Museums, Institutes, Libraries & Collections

© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.

Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 12:54 AM
Gossamer Skye

I have read Islamic history in detail (Seerat un nabbi by Ibn E Hisham, who quotes it from Ibn e Ishaaq, earliest known biographer of our Holy Prophet Muhammad). I went to school in Pakistan for 14years. I do not know how familiar you are with our education system, but Islamic Education is embedded in our schools and is obligatory, so I dare say that I do have "some little amount" of knowledge regarding Islam. And please next time do not make assumptions that someone is ignorant or unlearned. Just because some one disagrees with you does not mean that he is ignorant.

You are right in saying that I am new to the forum, so it will take me a little time to adjust. Please be patient. Thank you.

Wasalam.
Reply

Zafran
07-18-2009, 12:57 AM
Now back to the topic

I believe there is enough evidence to support the authenticity of the Quran Orally and written - Focus on the unbroken chain of scholars.

peace
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
What you have to remember is that the Quran was memorized by thousands and thousands of Sahaba. All Uthman did was choose the original pronunciations (everyone had the same words) and compile it all in written form.

When it was compiled, not a single one of the Sahaba objected to its contents. This is because it was the same as what everyone had memorized. It was impossible to alter the Quran or to "lose" parts of it.

Moreover, it is important to have evidence to back up your faith brother. But in order to question certain aspects of the Quran, you have to first have a more thorough understanding of how the verses were revealed, their context, etc. A person may find that they get in over their heads quickly because of the amount of material being cited or required for the discussion of said question. That being said, keep studying and you'll gind all the evidence you require.


I agree to some parts of your post brother. Uthman was merely a compiler. But you need to double check your statement "not a single one among the sahaba objected to it". Thank you very much.
Reply

Zafran
07-18-2009, 01:00 AM
I agree to some parts of your post brother. Uthman was merely a compiler. But you need to double check your statement "not a single one among the sahaba objected to it". Thank you very much.
salaam

Every Sahabi accepted it and even praised Uthman (ra) for doing it.

ps - Uthman (ra) standardised it into the Quesrhi dialect - the Quran was already complied under Abu Bakr (ra).

peace
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye






The Qur'anic Manuscripts

There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press). There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.
The dig at the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque. The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on Ṣanʿāʾ. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.
The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are many Qur'anic manuscripts written in the hijazi script which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. Many more manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra.We will be showing only a few examples below.
A few more examples of the 1st and 1st / 2nd century Qur'anic manuscripts can be found in the book Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ (1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah). This book is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Kuwait National Museum, with articles by Hussa Sabah Salim al-Sabah, G. R. Puin, M. Jenkins, U. Dreibholz in both Arabic and English. It is expected that the Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts will throw a great deal of light on the early Islamic history of calligraphy and illumination and even the various ahruf (they were seven) in which the Qur'an was revealed.
A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large maṣāḥif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first maṣāḥif were written. There are also examples of later maṣāḥif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!
As a matter of caution, we stress the fact that we are only showing a single leaf of the manuscripts in the cases below. A manuscript may contain additional sūrahs. The reader is advised to go through the references for additional information.
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1. The Qur'anic Script & Palaeography

On The Origins Of The Kufic Script
The Christian missionaries have claimed that the Kufic script originated not earlier than 150 years after hijra. They have argued that it is also the view of both Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi. This article is a devastating refutation of their claims.

The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558, A. Jones, Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.
It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier.

From Alphonse Mingana To Christoph Luxenberg: Arabic Script & The Alleged Syriac Origins Of The Qur'an
A path-breaking discourse or is it yet another headline grabbing exercise? You decide!

Concise List Of Arabic Manuscripts Of The Qur'ān Attributable To The First Century Hijra.
The study of ancient manuscripts of the Qur'an is steadily gathering pace. In decades past, a few scholars have compiled lists of Qur'anic manuscripts attributable to the 1st century hijra. Although helpful, these lists contain only the barest details, usually only the name of the manuscript concerned or sometimes even less. With this in mind, we have constructed this document that contains additional details providing further insights into these valuable manuscripts, accompanied by full bibliographic references. A discussion of how scholars date early Qur'anic manuscripts and an assessment of the value of these manuscripts is also provided along with some detailed mathematical calculations. Should one ponder over this list, they will come to the appreciation scholars involved in this field of study suffer from an embarrassment of riches. Quite simply, there is no other work from the Late Antiquity that comes close to the Qur'an in terms of the number of their earliest manuscripts including textual content.

Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur'ānic Manuscripts
Radiocarbon dating of ancient Qur'anic manuscripts in the literature is very rare. Can radiocarbon dating provide more accurate results than traditional palaeographic techniques and associated methods? A discussion of the scientific principles underpinning this radiometric dating technique, together with some practical examples from actual Qur'anic manuscripts, highlights the strengths and weaknesses of this procedure as compared to more traditional palaeographic based methods.

Dated Texts Containing The Qur’an From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.
The corpus of dated texts containing the Qur'an from 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE proving the early codification of the Qur'an in Arabic.
2. Examples Of The Qur'anic Manuscripts
THE ʿUTHMĀNIC MANUSCRIPTS
No discussion about the Qur'anic manuscripts begins without the mention of the ʿUthmānic manuscripts of the Qur'an. Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph ʿUthmān, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed to ʿUthmān. However, it is to be added that there is a disagreement between the scholars whether they are truly ʿUthmānic. Some Western scholars have rejected the Qur'anic manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān as "pious forgeries" without showing any scientific evidence (i.e., study of the parchment, script, ink etc.). This itself is unscientific to an extreme. We will discuss some important manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān below.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
This manuscript was written in Kufic script and contains 408 folios. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an. Only two folios are missing. The manuscript shows the script, illumination and marking of vowels that are from the Umayyad times (i.e., late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra).

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript written in the late the ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript.
FIRST CENTURY HIJRA
Below are the examples of the 1st century hijra manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī and the Kufic scripts.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From Mid-1st Century Of Hijra.
Perhaps the most significant manuscript of the Qur'an palimpsest so far discovered at Ṣanʿāʾ, this codex is datable to the middle of the first century of hijra and consists of 36 folios. The leaves from codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 have appeared under the hammer at auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonham's; the most recent one at Christie's in 2008 fetching a remarkable sum of £2,200,000, around fifteen times the estimated asking price. This codex exemplifies the principal tendencies of the early ḥijāzī script and is of tremendous importance regarding the textual transmission of the Qur'an, Arabic palaeography, codicology and other related disciplines. Below is a detailed description of some of the folios from this codex.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-25.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex consists of 29 folios. There are few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The verses divisions indicate the beginning of the usage of simple ornamentation which is nothing but adjacent strokes. An interesting feature of this early ijāzī manuscript is the presence of sūrah al-Fātiḥah which is followed immediately by sūrah al-Baqarah. The presence of sūrah al-Fātiḥah is rare in the Qur'ans from first century hijra, the only other known example being the “Great Umayyad Qur'ān”, DAM 20-33.1, also from Ṣanʿāʾ.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-29.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. This codex was probably written by at least two different copyists as the scripts differ in various folios. There are few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The sūrahs are separated by simple ornaments. The are 9 published folios of this codex but it is believed that others also exist. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Arabe 328a – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris.
This is one of the most important manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī script from 1st century hijra. It has 58 folios; 56 of them at the the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and one each at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana (Vat. Ar. 1605) and the Nasser David Khalili Collection (Acc. no. KFQ 60). This manuscript has 58 folios which contains about 26% of the total text of the Qur'an. The discussion on the folio at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana is available here.

MS. Or. 2165 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From The 1st Century Hijra In The British Library.
Hailed as by the earlier keepers of it as "probably the earliest Qur'an ever brought to Europe", the British Library says that it is the "oldest Qur'an manuscript" in their possession. This manuscript is written in the ḥijāzī (or ma'il) script. It is usually dated around the mid-second century of hijra. However, a recent study by Yasin Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the first century Qur'anic manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. This manuscript has 121 folios which contains about 53% of the total text of the Qur'an.

The “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 20-33.1) From The Time Of Caliph Al-Walīd, Late 1st Century Hijra.
This monumental and the earliest Kufic Qur'anic manuscript, perhaps one of the most well-studied and is dated to the last decade of the 1st century of hijra, around 710 - 715 CE, in the reign of the Umayyad Caliph al-Walīd. This manuscript is unique in the sense that it open with a group of full page images. These images are the only known Qur'an illustrations and are absolutely unique among extant Qur'an manuscripts. Apparently 25(?) folios from this codex survive. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

The “Damascus Umayyad Qur'ān” TIEM ŞE 321 – 1st Century Of Hijra.
This manuscript was dated by Déroche using art-historical methods to the time after 72 AH / 691-692 CE or more probably during the last quater of the 1st (early 8th) century AH. It is written in Kufic or perhaps late ḥijāzī script. The letters are spread over the entire page due to an extensive use of elongation of horizontal connections or to a regular spacing of the letters or groups of letters irrespective of being part of the word or not. The sūrah headings are illuminated. The illumination of this Qur'an relies on motifs which find their parallels with the mosaics at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. The codex has 33+ folios and is located at the Türk ve İslam Eserleri Müzesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey.

The ‘Mingana Palimpsest’ – A Manuscript Containing The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
Mrs. Agnes Smith Lewis was the first scholar to publish this unique palimpsest that has scriptio superior which is a Christian material (Arabic Christian homilies) and the scriptio inferior consisting of the Qur'anic verses. Mingana presented a full transcription of the Qur'anic text of the scriptio inferior of the manuscript, with the parallel text from the present day Qur'an. But his claim of "variants" in the Qur'anic text has come under suspicion partly because of his own history of being involved in suspected forgeries. Recent study by Fedeli on this manuscript has confirmed that the "inevitable and easy conclusion" is that all of Mingana's transcription can be suspected to be wrong. A recent surge of interest in this manuscript is due to the fact that the scriptio inferior was written in the ḥijāzī script.

Inv. No. LNS 19 CAab – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
This manuscript bears a striking resemblence to the British Musuem Ms. Or. 2165. Just like the latter, the former is not vocalised. The consonants are frequently differentiated by dashes. Six oval dots ranked in three pairs punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a red hollow circle surrounded by dots. Even the size of the folio is same as those found in Ms. Or. 2165. Thus, it can be said with reasonable certainty that both Ms. Or. 2165 and LNS 19 CAab belong to the same codex. There is one folio in this collection. Located at Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah, Kuwait.

Ms. Or. Fol. 4313 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The codex has 8 folios. Manuscript on parchment. The muṣḥaf is not vocalised. The consonants are differentiated by dashes. Six oval dots ranked in three pairs usually punctuate the verses. Every tenth verse is marked by a hollow circle surrounded by dots. Folios located at Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin, Germany, and Dār al-Kutub al-Misriyya, Cairo.

An ‘Umayyad’ Fragment Of The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
This private-owned fragment of the Qur'an was recently published by Yasin Dutton. On the basis of palaeography and radiocarbon analysis, he dated it to the second half of the 1st century of hijra / late 7th or early 8th century CE.

A Qur'ānic Manuscript In The Ḥijazi Script From c. 700 CE.
Eight folios (one fragmentary), 20-27 lines to the page written in brown ḥijāzī script, diacritical marks, where present, consists of oval dots or angled dashes, no vowel points, clusters of brown ink dots to indicate verse divisions, circular devices consisting of green and red dots every ten verses, one long, narrow rectangular panel of green and red decoration with a circular marginal device consisting of coloured dots on final folio, probably to indicate the sūrah heading of sūrah al-Nisa, leaves sewn together with original stitching. It contains sūrah āl-‘Imrān, verses 34-184.

A Qur'ānic Leaf In The Ḥijāzī Script On Vellum, 1st Century Of Hijra.
It is written in the ḥijāzī script in brown ink on vellum. No vocalization, verses indicated occasionally by four dots; a few dots and angled dashes indicating diacritical marks and consonants.

A Perg. 2 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. Yellowish, thin parchment with strong damage. Located at the Austrian National Library, Vienna

A Perg. 213 – A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the ḥijāzī script. Two folios extant.

A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses 7 Through 12.
A manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain, written in the Kufic script.

P. Michaélidès No. 32 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Collection George Michaélidès, Cairo (Egypt) written in the Kufic(?) script.

A Ma‘il Manuscript in Kuwait – A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Tariq Rajab Museum, Kuwait. Written in the ma‘il script [External Link].
FIRST / SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Mixt. 917 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
This manuscript was written in either the late ḥijāzī or kufic script and contains 105 folios. The extant folios contain about 27% of the text of the Qur'an. A rare form of punctuation is also displayed in this manuscript corroborating its eighth century CE dating.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-28.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Of Hijra.
This codex, found in the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, has 60 folios. There is a clear definition of the text area and of the distance between the lines which has given a uniform appearance, a feature which is generally uncommon in the ḥijāzī manuscripts. Diacritical marks are frequent. It has Qur'an 2:1–71:14 (fragmented, not sequential text).

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-18.3 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the late ḥijāzī script. The codex consists of 16 folios. Few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The vertical format is a common feature of most Qur'ans written in the ḥijāzī style. This example is an exception, where the horizontal format contradicts somewhat vertical features of the script.

Surah al-Isra' (17) Verses Number: From 20 To 22 And Part Of 23.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Mumtahinah (60) Verses Number: Part Of 4 To 8 And Part Of 9.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-30.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
It is written in the late ḥijāzī script. There are about 32 lines per page. Few diacritical marks but no vocalization. The indication of the end of every tenth verses has been added later. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 9 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-32.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the late ḥijāzī script. About 12 lines per page. It has few diacritical marks but the vocalization is probably contemporary. The style bears many features common to both ḥijāzī and early Kufic, or perhaps show a transition from the former to the latter. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 7 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-29.2 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
This beautiful codex is one of the two Qur'ans found in Ṣanʿāʾ which resemble the monumental codex from Syria, the “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ – DAM 20-33.1). Their similarity in size, proportion, number of lines, script and illumination suggest that the “Great Umayyad Qur'an” may have served as a model. The fragments from this codex reflect the Syrian codex in quality rather than features. The letters are spaciously distributed and once connected individual letters tend to blend with their neighbours. The total number of folios in this codex are not known but 10 of them have been published so far. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Codex TIEM ŞE 12995 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 2nd Century Of Hijra.
Written in the ḥijāzī script. The interesting part of this manuscript is the use of different colour of inks. Four varieties of ink have been used for the copy of the text. In addition of the most common used brown ink, the scribe also employed a red, an orange and a green one. These inks are not connected with the beginning or the end of sūrahs. The usage of inks does not follow any rule or sequence. However, an interesting patterning of the coloured inks is applied to the last three lines of a sūrah and the first three lines of the next one. For example, the end of sūrah al-Nisā is written in green and contrasts wiith the first and third lines of sūrah al-Mā'idah which are written in red, the second one being also in green. Only 22 folios of this codex survive. It is written in the reading of Ibn ʿĀmir. Located at the Türk ve İslam Eserleri Müzesi (Turkish and Islamic Art Museum), Istanbul, Turkey.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
This famous manuscript, also known as the Samarqand manuscript, housed in Tashkent, is commonly attributed to Caliph ‘Uthman. A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ‘Uthman's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

A Perg. 203: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 201: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 186: A Qur'anic Manuscript From Middle Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 202: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 207: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 27: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The End Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in themashq script.

One Of The Earliest Dated Qur'anic Manuscript (107 AH / 725 CE) At Egyptian National Library.
An example of one of the earliest dated Qur'anic manuscripts at the Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo (Egypt).

A Kufic Manuscript in the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies - A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript from the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies, Saudi Arabia, written in Kufic script [External Link].
SECOND / THIRD CENTURY HIJRA

Surah Al-Ma'idah, Surah al-An‘am. Part Of 117 (Surah Al-Ma'idah) To Part Of 1 Of Surah Al-An‘am.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Baqarah. Part Of 80 To Part Of 81.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Mursalat. 5 To 26 And Part Of 27.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
SOME UNIQUE MANUSCRIPTS
EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS

Professor Brannon Wheeler's Qur'an Manuscripts Page
It contains a healthy collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dated from 1st century of hijra onwards till 14th century of hijra in various scripts such as ma'il, kufic, thuluth, bihari, diwani, andalusi, maghribi and nastaliq.

The Schøyen Collection, National Library Of Norway
It has some good collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dating from as early as 2nd century of hijra.
3. The Qira'at In The Qur'anic Manuscripts Early Qur'anic manuscripts, unlike the modern printed editions, rarely contain information of the Qira'at in which they were written. Deciphering the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts is a recent endeavour and a very tedious task. Scholars like Nabia Abbott had only mentioned about Qira'at in the manuscripts in a very cursory way. Recently, in-depth studies have been undertaken to decipher the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts by Dr. Yasin Dutton of University of Edinburgh. He has been looking into various Qur'anic manuscripts to understand the purpose of using various coloured dots in the writing of the Qur'an and studying the consonantal structure (where dotting is nearly absent as in early Qur'ans written in ḥijāzī or ma'il script) to find out the Qira'at in which the Qur'an manuscript was written. Here are a few examples of the manuscripts in which the Qira'at has been identified.We will also mention Dr. Dutton's publications and provide a brief overview. This section is primarily for those who have access to journals in their libraries.

Y. Dutton, "An Early Muṣḥaf According To The Reading Of Ibn ‘Amir", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2001, Volume III (no. I), pp. 71-89.
This study is based on 1st century Qur'anic manuscript "Arabe 328a" in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, written in ḥijazi (or ma'il) script. This manuscript has enough material to be able to ascertain the reading it represents. This manuscript is almost devoid of dotting and hence the consonantal structure is used to determine the Qira'at and it was found to be that of Ibn ‘Amir (d. 118 / 736) - one of the reading later to be declared indisputably mutawatir by Ibn Mujahid (d. 324 / 926). This study is first of its kind on early Qur'anic manuscripts.

Y. Dutton, "Some Notes On The British Library's ‘Oldest Qur'an Manuscript’ (Or. 2165)", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2004, Volume VI (no. 1), pp. 43-71.
The study by Dr. Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to first century manuscript Arabe 328a in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and was written in the Qira'at of Ibn ‘Amir. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being the safer.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part I", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 1999, Volume I (no. I), pp. 115-140.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part II", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2000, Volume II (no. I), pp. 1-24.
This two-part detailed study is done on the Qur'anic manuscripts from Bodleian Library (Oxford) that date from 3rd / 4th century of hijra. The broad conclusions of this study are:

  1. Variants, including shadhdh variants, are not only marked, but in a sense, highlighted by the use of different coloured dots.
  2. The presence of shadhdh variants alongside Seven, Ten or Fourteen Qira'a suggests that the shadhdh variants were treated as seriously as the main readings by those responsible for vocalization.
  3. The vocalized manuscript enables us to have some idea of the reading, or readings, represented. Where there are only single or limited folios available this is not usually possible, but where there is either a distinctive feature, or enough of a sufficiently well-vocalized manuscript, it is often possible to fix the reading with some precision.
4. The Qur'anic Manuscripts In Museums, Institutes, Libraries & Collections

© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.

Thank you very much, it will take me a long time to read all this, but I promise that I will thoroughly go through all this. Thanks again.
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 01:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
Gossamer Skye

I have read Islamic history in detail (Seerat un nabbi by Ibn E Hisham, who quotes it from Ibn e Ishaaq, earliest known biographer of our Holy Prophet Muhammad). I went to school in Pakistan for 14years. I do not know how familiar you are with our education system, but Islamic Education is embedded in our schools and is obligatory, so I dare say that I do have "some little amount" of knowledge regarding Islam. And please next time do not make assumptions that someone is ignorant or unlearned. Just because some one disagrees with you does not mean that he is ignorant.

You are right in saying that I am new to the forum, so it will take me a little time to adjust. Please be patient. Thank you.

Wasalam.
I don't need your resume, firstly I wasn't talking about you in my statements of folks unlearned of a topic or learned vis a vis some orientalist 'scholar' given you have joined very late in the game, and secondly I have no way to verify your credentials or anything else about you personally save of what you write which might be colored with questionable detail..

Ibn Ishaq himself wasn't deemed a reliable source on the life of the prophet by Bukhari who refused to use alot of his details in the ahadith however these are minor details nonetheless and deserve a separate thread!
Wanting to learn doesn't start with an assertion but with proper questions.. I really have no quarrels with you, & I don't care just the same whether your religiosity is contingent upon the friendliness of the forum. 'be nice to me or I'll leave Islam' as foreshadowing your progress or lack thereof is probably a reflection on you than on the forum itself!

all the best
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
Thank you very much, it will take me a long time to read all this, but I promise that I will thoroughly go through all this. Thanks again.

my pleasure indeed.. for a better more thorough read may I recommend

a history of Quranic text from revelation to compilation by Dr. Al-Azami

Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 01:09 AM
being nice is good I think :). But being nice or vice versa has nothing to do with my being faithful or faithless. Healthy discussion is always good and that is why I am here for. I am sorry I got the impression that you said that I should study first and then start questioning my faith. SO I just wanted to remind you that I have studied some and I am still doing more and more research.

But there is something called common sense, poeple should rely on it more than anything.
Thank you and Wasalam.
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 01:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
being nice is good I think :). But being nice or vice versa has nothing to do with my being faithful or faithless. Healthy discussion is always good and that is why I am here for. I am sorry I got the impression that you said that I should study first and then start questioning my faith. SO I just wanted to remind you that I have studied some and I am still doing more and more research.

But there is something called common sense, poeple should rely on it more than anything.
Thank you and Wasalam.

we have had many an acerbic under-educated critics piercing an otherwise 'healthy' exchange, and they have no interest in learning, rather asserting their ignorance which they desire the rest of us to imbue without the slightest common sense from a simple historical perspective if not a religious one.
They'd rather read and believe and convince themselves and desire for us to be convinced just the same that we worship moon gods, or that Mary got pregnant with Jesus by eating dates or that Allah is the devil and so is Mohammed etc etc.. they call themselves 'scholars' they are in fact far removed... and it gets so tedious when it is an every day occurrence!

if you personally have questions and insert them in the search feature I guarantee you'll get at least 5-6-7 threads on the matter.. it is because most of them get their info from the same source and they don't bother verify it. They believe it and how dare us not admit to their beliefs!

If you are here to learn and for an honest intellectual debate and exchange then I wish you genuine progress.. if Islam isn't for you, it is all good just the same!

peace
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 02:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
we have had many an acerbic under-educated critics piercing an otherwise 'healthy' exchange, and they have no interest in learning, rather asserting their ignorance which they desire the rest of us to imbue without the slightest common sense from a simple historical perspective if not a religious one.
They'd rather read and believe and convince themselves and desire for us to be convinced just the same that we worship moon gods, or that Mary got pregnant with Jesus by eating dates or that Allah is the devil and so is Mohammed etc etc.. they call themselves 'scholars' they are in fact far removed... and it gets so tedious when it is an every day occurrence!

if you personally have questions and insert them in the search feature I guarantee you'll get at least 5-6-7 threads on the matter.. it is because most of them get their info from the same source and they don't bother verify it. They believe it and how dare us not admit to their beliefs!

If you are here to learn and for an honest intellectual debate and exchange then I wish you genuine progress.. if Islam isn't for you, it is all good just the same!

peace
Dear sister,

I express my gratitude once again. I am here to learn in all honesty and I am not here to assert my opinions on others. In future I will try to look for the answers within the forum itself before jumping up and posting something. Shukran Wasalam.
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
Dear sister,

I express my gratitude once again. I am here to learn in all honesty and I am not here to assert my opinions on others. In future I will try to look for the answers within the forum itself before jumping up and posting something. Shukran Wasalam.
I had no intention to be abrasive toward you, I thought you were soloqi, a fellow we have had of late who pretended to be Muslim!
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 02:16 AM
It is okay, anyone can be mistaken. I do not have any hard feelings towards you. :)
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 02:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
It is okay, anyone can be mistaken. I do not have any hard feelings towards you. :)

thanks then :welcome: aboard
I won't question why you wrote the stuff you did on my sura thread yesterday, maybe it was a real genuine Q.. anyhow I hope you learn alot here..

:w:
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-18-2009, 02:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
I agree to some parts of your post brother. Uthman was merely a compiler. But you need to double check your statement "not a single one among the sahaba objected to it". Thank you very much.
Which objected?

edit: Uthman didn't collect the Quran actually.

Upon the command of the Prophet (PBUH), the companions used to write what was revealed of the Holy Qur’an. They used for this purpose palm branches stripped of leaves, parchment, shoulder bones stone tablets, etc. About 40 people were involved in this task. Among those was Zayd Bin Thabet who showed his work to the prophet (PBUH). Thus, the Qur’an was properly arranged during the Prophet’s life but it was not compiled in one book yet. In the meantime, most of the Prophet’s companions learned the Qur’an by heart.

When Abu Bakr Assiddeeq became Caliph after the Prophet (PBUH) had died, a large number of the companions were killed during the war of the apostasy. Omar Bin Al khatab went to the caliph and discussed the idea of compiling the Qur’an in one volume. He was disturbed, as most of and those who memorized it had died. Then, Abu Bakr called for Zayd commissioned him to collect the Qur’an in one book, which became known as “ Mos’haf”.

After Zayed accomplished the tedious task and organized the Qur’an into one book, he submitted the precious collection to Abu Bakr who kept it in his possession until the end of his life. During Omar’s caliphate, it

was kept with the Prophet’s wife “Hafsa”.

In Othman’s days, readers began to recite the Qur’an in different ways (dialects) as Islam reached many countries. Othman then had various copies made based the original copy with Hafsa. Thus the Qur’an was

preserved and the Caliph was very much pleased with his achievement.

Today, every copy of the Qur’an has to conform with the standard copy of Othman. In fact Muslims over the ages excelled in producing the best manuscripts of the Holy Qur’an in the most wonderful handwriting. With the introduction of printing, more and more editions of Holy Qur’an were available all over the world.
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
thanks then :welcome: aboard
I won't question why you wrote the stuff you did on my sura thread yesterday, maybe it was a real genuine Q.. anyhow I hope you learn alot here..

:w:
It was a genuine question. It was regarding the Satanic Verses issue, never mind about it right now, it is irrelevant on this thread :)
Reply

Zafran
07-18-2009, 02:30 AM
what website did you get that from - I googled it and anti Islamic sites come up?
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-18-2009, 02:31 AM
It's late here and I'll respond to your post tomorrow sometime.

Though I will say this, keep in mind that had there been any loss/alteration, many more than one Sahaba (who had memorized the Quran also) would have had a problem with the contents and you would be reading hundreds of hadiths of complaints.
Reply

Zafran
07-18-2009, 02:32 AM
Hadrat Zaid Bin Thabit(Prophet Muhammad (SAW)'s adopted son)

Thats not true - your mixing up the Zaids. That was Zaid Ibn Harith (ra) Not Zaid Ibn Thabit (ra). You seriously need to watch where you get your info from.
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
what website did you get that from - I googled it and anti Islamic sites come up?
Yes it is a stupid anti-Islamic website, that is why I mentioned earlier that there was a lot of stupid stuff on the article which i disregarded.

I think it is on some website by some guy with Abrahamic faith, it is both anti-Islamic and anti-Christianity
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 02:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Thats not true - your mixing up the Zaids.
ohhhhhh, did I? OOoppps I am sorry I will have to re-look at it.
Do you remember what was the full name of Hadrat Zaid (prophet's adopted son) so I can rectify my error.
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 02:35 AM
Zaid Bin Harith

I am really sorry and I apologize for my huge error!
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 02:49 AM
btw just for the record here what the actual sahih Muslim number 6022 says :



6022 - حدثنا أبو بكر بن أبي شيبة ، حدثنا يحيى بن آدم ، عن عمار بن رزيق ، عن أبي إسحاق ، عن الأغر أبي مسلم ، عن أبي هريرة ، وأبي سعيد قالا : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : « ما جلس قوم مسلمون يذكرون الله إلا حفتهم (1) الملائكة وتغشتهم (2) الرحمة وتنزلت عليهم السكينة (3) »

source:
http://www.muslm.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-164216.html

which you are free to look up.

It has a strong chain of Isnad. I will not translate so you wouldn't think me biased but here is an Arabic/English translation site where you are free to cut and paste the text into:

http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic/to-English
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 02:53 AM
Oh wow, that is a HUGE surprise, one can never trust what is on a website.................
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 02:55 AM
What people sat Muslim remember Allah only died

hhhmmmm this is what the translator says...........
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 03:00 AM
lol.. well you need a human translator then: the hadith says:
I'll skip the names for the (Isnad) Whenever a people sit in Remembrance of Allah (SWT) save that they will be surrounded by angels, mercy and peace shall betide them!
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 03:02 AM
oooh I feel stupid and embarrassed
Thank you.
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 03:06 AM
there are thousands and thousands of ahadith there is no way to know all of them and whether they are twator or ohad unless you are learned in twhid and fiqh and the science of hadith.. that is why I personally prefer to look them up in the actual ahadith book which I have in the library or in Arabic on line (though there are anti-islamic) sites in Arabic as well which disseminate wrong info.. but I like to follow the general rule which is one shall find Islam on the fitrah.. denoting that it should make sense to the genuine nature of man and not against it...

if completely dumbstruck by something then you can go to islamonline.net and ask a scholar.. none of us here (that I am aware) are scholars except for Br. Ansar 'Al Adl but he no longer particpates!

:w:
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 03:11 AM
:) will do that
Reply

Uthman
07-18-2009, 08:11 AM
If the 'variant readings' are a reference to the various ahruf and Qira'at, then this thread may be relevant: http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/12...aat-ahruf.html
Reply

جوري
07-18-2009, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
If the 'variant readings' are a reference to the various ahruf and Qira'at, then this thread may be relevant: http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/12...aat-ahruf.html
been meaning to compliment you for finding this thread, I read it at 5 am from my Itouch... was really very impressed with it.. I have always wondered what it meant that the Quran was revealed on 7 ahruf .. the more I know the more awe struck I become of this most noble book...

:w:
Reply

Zafran
07-18-2009, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
If the 'variant readings' are a reference to the various ahruf and Qira'at, then this thread may be relevant: http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/12...aat-ahruf.html
salaam

I'll second that - thanks for that informative thread

peace
Reply

Basit
07-18-2009, 07:53 PM
Bismillah Hir-Rahmanir Rahim.

Al-salam Alaykum!

The reason for the standardization of system is due to widespread of Islam. The mushaf of Uthman before had no dots or vowel marks as they are not necessary for somebody who knew pure arabic. Due to widespread of Islam among other nations and people, there is a need to safeguard it from incorrect reading and misinterpretation. At first they are reluctant about these additions but they finally agreed that these dots and vowel marks did not affect the text itself and were merely aids to proper pronunciation and understanding.

The content of the Qur'an is authentic why? Because The ones who compiled it into a suhuf was the sahabahs of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, which at the time of the prophet memorized the Qur'an in entirety and they have written it pieces of leather, bones and palm leaves as the Prophet recites it to them. The dots and vowel marks was later added for people who dont know pure arabic so that when they read, recite or memorize the Qur'an, they will not be in error.

..................
I hope this could help in this misunderstanding. If i commited an error in my post it is my own mistake, if you found truth in it, it is from Allah subhanah wa taala.




PS: Please dont read the Qur'an if you are an unbeliever. Because if you do, you will only commit more sin. By reading it, you are informed of the message of Allah, subhanah wa taala, but then you doubt the truth in his words.

Dont criticize the Qur'an as well, it is not a word from somebody, it is the words of Allah subhanah wa taala.
....................

Al-Salam Alaykum
Reply

Basit
07-18-2009, 07:58 PM
ohhhhh, i was just typing and the topic has changed already. hehehe
the page im answering was page 1. ^^

Salam!
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 08:04 PM
That is what confuses me too. In Surah AL Bakrah Ayat 2: "This is a book for Al Muttaqain [ Pious believers of Islamic Monotheism who fear Allah much (abstain from all sins that Allah has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all deeds which He has ordained)] "

I have always been informed that Qura'n is for entire humanity as a guidance. But it clearly states that it is only for Muslims. So how can we expect someone to embrace Islam without understanding it?
Muhammad Asad was born a Jew but later converted to Islam. He wrote a famous book "Islam ar cross roads". He found out that Islam is a true religion only after reading the Quran. If you stop a non- Muslim from reading our doctrine i.e Quran, how do you expect some one to convert whole heartedly?
Reply

Basit
07-18-2009, 08:18 PM
brother,

are you pertaining to my post scripto? what i intend to say was upon reading and understanding what is written in the Qur'an one should accept and believe in it if he is a believer. because only a non-believer will think it is not true. one who comes to the religion of Allah must believe in Him and His words. I think its not right if one become a muslim now and then believe in Him after.

Al-salam Alaykum
Reply

StudentMuslim
07-18-2009, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basit
brother,

I think its not right if one become a muslim now and then believe in Him after.

Al-salam Alaykum
Exactly Brother, This is my point: How can someone believe in Allah without studying the Qura'n. Qura'n is the biggest miracle of Islam an dit helps us in understanding who really Allah is and all his attributes. But if you put a stop to non-believers studying it, then how will they understand what eth true essence of Islam is?

sorry for the typos
Reply

Hugo
07-19-2009, 01:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
If I am making an argument with assertion, I'd better do my homework and not delegate it to other people. If you had something of substance to impart as per esack then bring it here with a before and after manuscript and the lone folks who have kept on their ways using vague idioms?
You know nothing about Dr. John Martin, not just little and indeed he is a brilliant scientist given all his awards prior to his breakdown you know little of his work, as you know very little of many people's work but like to strut with bravado see who is ignorant and can lap your crap up.. His work has nothing whatsoever to do with ethics, it has to do with what a man imagines in an abstract fashion and what he makes manifest through physical provable lab work!
I can see nowhere where I said Dr Martin was working on ethics as such but to say his work has nothing to do with ethics is pure nonsense and you must know that unless you have little or no knowledge as to how medical or indeed any research is carried out.

My point was to ask you what possible value can it have in a discussion on authenticity related to the Qu'ran to bring into the discussion you view of an ethically discredited scientist working in the medical field?
Reply

Basit
07-19-2009, 04:30 PM
Al-salam Alaykum!

brother,

your question has put me into a brief pause as im not sure if i can give you the best answer for that querry, there are others who could you more correct answer as i am not deeply learned of Islam yet. Im still in the process of getting more into the religion of Allah(swt). What im thinking only is that one should believe after reading the Qur'an as it was the words of the one true God which was revealed to the prophet Muhammad(pbuh). It will not be good if after reading the Qur'an, one will doubt the truth it contains and sometimes the unbeliever who reads it even criticize what it contains.

Salam.
Reply

جوري
07-19-2009, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I can see nowhere where I said Dr Martin was working on ethics as such but to say his work has nothing to do with ethics is pure nonsense and you must know that unless you have little or no knowledge as to how medical or indeed any research is carried out.
Another attempt by your person to deflect-- given you have no idea of the man or his work had I not actually written his name down here to google.. You are now an expert via google on pathology, microbiology and medical ethics?
the point has always been, having a grand title next to your name doesn't automatically a scholar make you or exempt you from error, except the people whose names you bring and allege scholarship are nothing but mere unread apostates and orientalist with an agenda not dissimilar to yours as such not even a title of scholarship has been bestowed upon them from a governing body for it to be taken away later as a matter of 'ethics' or research that is both unproved and unprovable!
It must be some sort of reaction formation where you allege an issue of ethics, and at the same time be so far removed from it!
My point was to ask you what possible value can it have in a discussion on authenticity related to the Qu'ran to bring into the discussion you view of an ethically discredited scientist working in the medical field?
See above, and try to glean something from what most folks write here.. it is near impossible to bring anything worth discussion to the table to someone whose entire thought processes is so linear.. and expectedly so .. what else would a fellow that takes a self immolating sin eating man for a god be but delusional at best?


take a hike, I exposed your prevarications the first day you came on board.. I am rather surprised you have such a thick skin after being exposed for the Tartuffe that you are.. but to go down the same path in hopes no one else would take notice!
Reply

Basit
07-19-2009, 04:45 PM
Salam brothers,

I believe the Qur'an is authentic and everything it contains is true and it is the very message of Allah(swt) to those who believe in him. But i would like to ask your point of view; Just how reliable is the Bible of christians? just lately, i saw one ad on one of the pages i checked yesterday because the ad was very inviting at first. It says, October 21, 2012 will be the judgment day. i thought it was one movie trailer but when i clicked the ad and opened the link site, it shows that one christian group with a foreseer is trying to show proof that that day, october 21, 2012 shall be the judgment day according to the christian bible. they showed some calculations which dates from the time of noah until that future day. it was pomoted by www.familyradio.com as told in the site. you can google it also by typing october 21, 2012 in your browser. How can this be true where in fact, only Allah knows when will the judgment day will be.

Only Allah(swt) knows what will happen in the future, He is the All Knowing, the All Wise,

Salam!
Reply

جوري
07-19-2009, 04:48 PM
The authenticity of the Quran has been discussed here on more than one thread, all anyone has to do is use the search feature..
my attempts are really to get this fellow banned by exposing him to enough folks not to humor him as if he had something of substance to impart!

:w:
Reply

Basit
07-19-2009, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basit
Salam brothers,

I believe the Qur'an is authentic and everything it contains is true and it is the very message of Allah(swt) to those who believe in him. But i would like to ask your point of view; Just how reliable is the Bible of christians? just lately, i saw one ad on one of the pages i checked yesterday because the ad was very inviting at first. It says, October 21, 2012 will be the judgment day. i thought it was one movie trailer but when i clicked the ad and opened the link site, it shows that one christian group with a foreseer is trying to show proof that that day, october 21, 2012 shall be the judgment day according to the christian bible. they showed some calculations which dates from the time of noah until that future day. it was pomoted by www.familyradio.com as told in the site. you can google it also by typing october 21, 2012 in your browser. How can this be true where in fact, only Allah knows when will the judgment day will be.

Only Allah(swt) knows what will happen in the future, He is the All Knowing, the All Wise,

Salam!
sorry guys, the date they said is october 21, 2011 judgment day and may 21, 2011 is rapture day. :D hehe
Reply

جوري
07-19-2009, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basit
Salam brothers,

I believe the Qur'an is authentic and everything it contains is true and it is the very message of Allah(swt) to those who believe in him. But i would like to ask your point of view; Just how reliable is the Bible of christians? just lately, i saw one ad on one of the pages i checked yesterday because the ad was very inviting at first. It says, October 21, 2012 will be the judgment day. i thought it was one movie trailer but when i clicked the ad and opened the link site, it shows that one christian group with a foreseer is trying to show proof that that day, october 21, 2012 shall be the judgment day according to the christian bible. they showed some calculations which dates from the time of noah until that future day. it was pomoted by www.familyradio.com as told in the site. you can google it also by typing october 21, 2012 in your browser. How can this be true where in fact, only Allah knows when will the judgment day will be.

Only Allah(swt) knows what will happen in the future, He is the All Knowing, the All Wise,

Salam!

About the 'integrity' of the bible:
Church Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible
M S M Saifullah, Qasim Iqbal & Muhammad Ghoniem
© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
Last Modified: 31st August 1999

Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
The basis of evaluation of any hadîth (story or report) in Islam of any text concerned particularly with religion is based on the study of matn (i.e., text) and its isnad (i.e., chain of narration).
A hadîth (pl. ahâdîth) is composed of two parts: the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of reporters). A text may seem to be logical and reasonable but it needs an authentic isnad with reliable reporters to be acceptable; cAbdullah b. al-Mubârak (d. 181 AH), one of the illustrious teachers of Imâm al-Bukhârî, said, "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."[1]
The Christian 'hadîth' is composed of matn (text) but no isnad (chain of narration). Without isnad, as cAbdullah b. al-Mubarak said, anyone can claim anything saying that it is coming from the authority. The authorities in the case of Christian 'hadîth' are the Apostles and later day Church Fathers. But how can one be sure that the Christian 'hadîth' is not mixed with falsehood without the proper isnad and its verification?
The Old Testament, to certain extent and the New Testament in toto lack chain of narration. When this argument was put forward, the Christian missionary Jochen Katz wrote:
On 8 Oct 1998, Jochen Katz wrote (on a different thread):

> That is a bogus argument from an Islamic point of view.
Missionaries when cornered try to wiggle out of the argument by calling names. According to Katz, the Islamic argument of using the chain of narration, i.e., isnad, is 'bogus' because the New Testament and major part of Old Testament lacks it and above all it is a Muslim argument. By calling the Islamic argument of isnad 'bogus' Katz thought that he is already refuted it. Unfortunately, the Orientalists like Bernard Lewis who read this 'bogus' Islamic tradition and compares it with the Christian scholarship say that:
From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.[2]
So, after all this Islamic science of hadîth, called 'bogus' by Katz, was so advanced that its Christian counterparts were far far away from its sophistication. Futher where does it sophistication lie?
. . . it would have been easy to invent sayings of Muhammad. Because the cultural background of the Arabs had been oral the evidence that came to be expected was the chain of names of those who had passed on the anecdote containing the saying . . . The study of Traditions rapidly became a distinct branch of the studies of the general religious movement. It was soon realized that false Traditions were in circulation with sayings that Muhammad could not possibly have uttered. The chains of transmitters were therefore carefully scrutinised to make sure that the persons named could in fact have met one another, that they could be trusted to repeat the story accurately, and that they did not hold any heretical views. This implied extensive biographical studies; and many biographical dictionaries have been preserved giving the basic information about a man's teachers and pupils, the views of later scholars (on his reliability as a transmitter) and the date of his death. This biography-based critique of Traditions helped considerably to form a more or less common mind among many men throughout the caliphate about what was to be accepted and what rejected.[3]
If the Muslim traditions have been bogus, how come the Jews did not understand this and went on to use the great works composed by Muslims? Saadia Gaon, the famous Jewish linguist, says:
Saadia expresses himself unreservedly about his indebtness to Arabic authors, who served him as models in the composition of his work. "It is reported," he says, "that one of the worthies among the Ishmaelites, realizing to his sorrow that the people do not use the Arabic language correctly, wrote a short treatise for them. From which they might learn proper usages. Similarly, I have noticed that many of the Israelites even the common rules for the correct usage of our (Hebrew) language, much less the more difficult rules, so that when they speak in prose most of it is faulty, and when they write poetry only a few of the ancient rules are observed, and majority of them are neglected. This has induced me to compose a work in two parts containing most of the (Hebrew) words.[4]
Guillaume informs us in his preface of the book The Legacy Of Islam:
Since the beginning of the nineteenth century there has been a constant recourse to Arabic for the explanation of rare words and forms in Hebrew; for Arabic though more than a thousand years junior as a literary language, is the senior philosophically by countless centuries. Perplexing phenomenon in Hebrew can often be explained as solitary and archaic survivals of the form which are frequent and common in the cognate Arabic. Words and idioms whose precise sense had been lost in Jewish tradition, receive a ready and convincing explanation from the same source. Indeed no serious student of the Old Testament can afford to dispense with a first-hand knowledge in Arabic. The pages of any critical commentary on the Old Testament will illustrate the debt of the Biblical exegesis owes to Arabic.[5]
It turns out that the same tradition which Katz addressed as 'bogus' result in the exegesis of his own scriptures, the Old Testament.

Since Christianity did not have anything like the 'tradition' to evaluate their own material, we see quite a lot of differences. Let us now examine the great tradition of the Church which Katz wants Muslims to trust and also to see which tradition is really bogus.
This document is divided into the following:
1. Church Tradition & The Bible

It must be made clear that there is nothing like one Bible with a set of books. The number of books in the Bible actually depend upon the Church one follows. Therefore if we follow the Church tradition we end with following Bibles. They differ in number of books in both the Old Testament and the New Testament:

Protestant Church
Historically, Protestant churches have recognized the Hebrew canon as their Old Testament, although differently ordered, and with some books divided so that the total number of books is thirty-nine. These books, as arranged in the traditional English Bible, fall into three types of literature: seventeen historical books (Genesis to Esther), five poetical books ( Job to Song of Solomon), and seventeen prophetical books. With the addition of another twenty-seven books (the four Gospels, Acts, twenty-one letters, and the book of Revelation), called the New Testament, the Christian scriptures are complete.[6]
Roman Catholic Church
The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.[7]
Anglican Church
The Anglican church falls between the Catholic church and many Protestant denominations by accepting only the Jewish canon and the New Testament as authoritative, but also by accepting segments of the apocryphal writings in the lectionary and liturgy. At one time all copies of the Authorized or King James Version of 1611 included the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments.[8]
Greek Orthodox Church
The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.[9] (See below)
Coptic Church
Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form - though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.[10]
Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church
Until 1959, the Ethiopic Church was under the jurisdiction of the head of Coptic Church. Hence it is not surprising that its canon of Scripture should parallel in some respects that of the Coptic Church.
The Ethiopic church has the largest Bible of all, and distinguishes different canons, the "narrower" and the "broader," according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the "broader" canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the "narrower" New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.[11]
Bruce Metzger in his book The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development elaborates more on the books accepted by Ethiopic Church. The'broader' Canon of Ethiopic New Testament consists of the following thirty five books:
The four Gospels
Acts
The (seven) Catholic Epistles
The (fourteen) Epistles of Paul
The Book of Revelation
Sinodos (four sections)
Clement
The Book of the Covenant (two sections)
Didascalia
The contents of the last four titles in the list are as follows. The Sinodos is a book of church order, comprising an extensive collection of canons, prayers, and instructions attributed to Clement of Rome.
Clement (Qalementos) is a book in seven parts, communicated by Peter to Clement. It is not the Roman or Corinthian correspondence, nor one of the three parts of the Sinodos that are sometimes called 1, 2, and 3 Clement, nor part of the Syriac Octateuch of Clement.
The Book of Covenant (Mashafa kidan) is counted as two parts. The first part of sixty sections comprises chiefly material on church order; section 61 is a discourse of the Lord to his disciples after his resurrection, similar to the Testamentum Domini.
The Ethiopic Didascalia (Didesqelya) is a book of Church order in forty-three chapters, distinct from the Didascalia Apostolorum, but similar to books I-VII of so-called Apostlic Constitutions.[12]
Syriac Church
Let us also not forget the Syriac Churches which used to deal with Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian which was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Pe****ta. Pe****ta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament.
This represents for the New Testament an accomodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Pe****ta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (AD 431) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.[13]
Pe****ta is still followed by the Christians in the sourthern state of Kerala in India.
Still today the official lectionary followed by the Syrian Orthodox Church, with headquarters at Kottayam (Kerala), and the Chaldean Syriac Church, also known as the the Church of the East (Nestorian), with headquarters at Trichur (Kerala), presents lessons from only the twenty-two books of Pe****ta, the version to which appeal is made for the settlement of doctrinal questions.[14]
To make the issue clearer, we are here dealing with different number of books of New Testament followed by different churches all over the world. These are not the different translations of the Bible, the argument which Christian missionaries use to brush the problem under the carpet. Calling another church heretical is not going to work the problem out because there was no single book right from the beginning of Christianity which constituted the New Testament as we would see later, inshallah. The New Testament as we see today, depends upon the Church again(!), is a product of centuries worth of metamorphosis. Under "Canon of the New Testament" the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.[15]
So, the great Church tradition has not made up her mind on the Bible.
Now this would be big enough problem for the Christian missionaries to ruminate, inshallah. Let us now go into the issue of what the Apostolic Fathers refer to during their time.
2. Church Tradition & Apostolic Fathers

It is a frequent claim by the Christian missionaries that the Church Fathers believed that the New Testament was considered as 'inspired' Scripture.
Bruce M Metzger, a noted authority on the New Testament, analyzing the Apostolic Fathers viz., Clement of Rome, Ignatius, the Didache, fragments of Papias, Barnabas, Hermas of Rome, and the so-called 2 Clement concludes the following:
Clement Of Rome
By way of summary, we see that Clement's Bible is the Old Testament, to which he refers repeated as Scripture, quoting it with more or less exactness. Clement also makes occasional reference to certain words of Jesus; though they are authoritative to him, he does not appear to enquire how their authenticity is ensured. In two of the three instances that he speaks of remembering 'the words' of Christ or of the Lord Jesus, it seems that he has a written record in mind, but he does not call it a 'gospel'. He knows several of Paul's epistles, and values them highly for their content; the same can be said of the Epistle of the Hebrews with which he is well acquainted. Although these writings obviously possess for Clement considerable significance, he never refers to them as authoritative 'Scripture'.[16]
Ignatius Of Antioch
The upshot of all this is that the primary authority for Ignatius was the apostolic preaching about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, though it made little difference to him whether it was oral or written. He certainly knew a collection of Paul's epistles, including (in the order of frequency of his use of them) 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians. It is probable that he knew the Gospels according to Matthew and John, and perhaps also Luke. There is no evidence that he regarded any of these Gospels or Epistles as 'Scripture'.[17]
The Didache
The Didache is a short manual or moral instruction and Church practice. The Church history writer Eusebius and Athanasius even considered to be on the fringe of the New Testament Canon[18]. Assigning the composition of Didache has ranged from first century to fourth century by the scholars, but most of them prefer to assign it in the first half of the second century[19]. Metzger summarizes the book as:
By way of summary, we can see from Didache that itinerant apostles and Prophets still find an important place in the life of the Church, but this authority is declining. Their activity is surrounded by all sorts of precautions and rests ultimately on the authority of the traditional teaching deriving from the Lord, whose manner they must exhibit: 'Not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet, except he have the ways of the Lord. By their ways, then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be distinguished' (xi. 8). The author refers to the gospel, but he cites only words of Jesus. This 'gospel', which is without doubt the Gospel according to Matthew, is not regarded as a necessary source from which the words of the Lord, with indispensable warrants, come to the faithful, but quite simply as a convenient collection of these words.[20]
Papias Of Heirapolis
By way of summary, Papias stands as a kind of bridge between the oral and written stages in the transmission of the gospel tradition. Although he professes to have a marked preference for the oral tradition, one nevertheless sees at work the causes that, more and more, would lead to the rejection of that form of tradition in favour of written gospels. On the whole, therefore, the testimony of Papias concerning the development of the canon of the New Testament is significant chiefly in reflecting the usage of the community in which devotion to oral tradition hindered the development of a clear idea of canonicity.[21]
Barnabas
Epistle of Barnabas is a theological tract. Both Clement of Alexandria and Origen valued the work highly and attributed its composition Barnabas, the companion and co-worker of the apostle Paul.
Metzger summarizes the position of Barnabas concerning the scripture as the following.
By way of summary, one can see that for Barnabas the Scriptures are what we call the Old Testament, including several books outside the Hebrew canon. Most of his contacts with the Synoptic traditions involve simple sentences that might well have been known to a Christian of that time from oral tradition. As against the single instance of his using the formula, 'it is written', in introducing the statement, 'Many are called, but few are chosen', must be placed his virtual neglect of the New Testament. If, on the other hand, he wrote shortly before or after 130, the focus of his subject matter would not make it necessary to do much quoting from New Testament books - if indeed he knew many of them. In either case he provides no evidence for the development of the New Testament canon.[22]
Polycarp Of Smyrna
By way of summary, the short Epistle of Polycarp contains proportionately far more allusions to the writings of the New Testament than are present in any other of the Apostolic Fathers. He certainly had a collection of at least eight Pauline Epistles (including two of the Pastorals), and was acquainted as well with Hebrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John. As for the Gospels, he cites as sayings of the Lord phrases that we find in Matthew and Luke. With one exception, none of Polycarp's many allusions is cited as Scripture - and that exception, as we have seen, is held by some to have been mistakenly attributed to the Old Testament. At the same time Polycarp's mind is not only saturated with ideas and phrases derived from a considerable number of writings that later came to be regarded as New Testament Scriptures, but he also displays latent respect for these apostolic documents as possessing an authority lacking in other writings. Polycarp, as Grant remarks, 'clearly differentiates the apostolic age from his own time and, presumably for this reason, does not use the letters of Ignatius as authoritiesóeven though they "contain faith, endurance, and all the edification which pertains to our Lord" (xiii. 2)'.[23]
Hermas Of Rome
By way of summary, it is obvious that Hermas was not given to making quotations from literature; in fact, the only actual book anywhere named and quoted in the Shepherd ( Vis. ii. 3) is an obscure Jewish apocalypse known as the book of Eldad and Modat. Despite reminiscences from Matthew, Ephesians, and James, Hermas makes no comment that would lead us to think that he regarded them as canonical Scripture. From the testimony contained in the Shepherd, it can in any case be observed how uneven during the course of the second century was the development of the idea of the canon.[24]
The So-Called Second Epistle Of Clement
This work is not the genuine work of Clement of Rome. This is regarded as an early Christian sermon. The style of this work is different from that of 1 Clement. Both date and composition of this work are difficult to determine. It was probably written around 150 CE. Metzger summarizes the contents of this work as:
By way of recapitulation, the unknown author of 2 Clement certainly knew and used Matthew and Luke, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. There is no trace of the Johannine Gospel or Epistles, or of the Book of Acts. And one can not say more than that he may have known Hebrews, James, and 1 Peter. Of the eleven times he cites words of Jesus, five are not to be found in the canonical Gospels. The presence of these latter, as well as the citation in xi. 2-4 of an apocryphal book of the Old Testament, introduced as 'the prophetic word', shows that our homilist's quotations of divinely authoritative words are not controlled by any strict canonical idea, even in relation to Old Testament writings.[25]
After studying the writings of all the Apostolic Fathers, Bruce Metzger concludes that:
For early Jewish Christians the Bible consisted of the Old Testament and some Jewish apocryphal literature. Along with this written authority went traditions, chiefly oral, of sayings attributed to Jesus. On the other hand, authors who belonged to the 'Hellenistic Wing' of the Church refer more frequently to writings that later came to be included in the New Testament. At the same time, however, they very rarely regarded such documents as 'Scripture'.
Furthermore, there was as yet no conception of the duty of exact quotation from books that were not yet in the full sense canonical. Consequently, it is sometimes exceedingly difficult to ascertain which New Testament books were known to early Christian writers; our evidence does not become clear until the end of second century.[26]
We have evidence of the spotty development and treatment of the writings later regarded as the New Testament in the second and third centuries CE. Gradually written Gospels, and collections of epistles, different ones in different regions, became to be more highly regarded.

So for 200 years or so there was nothing like New Testament to begin with. The great Church tradition did not even bother to collect the 'Scriptures' between two covers!

3. Church Tradition & The Early Lists Of The Books Of The New Testament
Now when the Church tradition finally started to make up her mind on compiling the New Testament various lists of books in the Canons of the Bible were drawn. Bruce Metzger gives the following list of the Canons of the Bible drawn at different times in the 'western' Church. Please note that we still do not have the great deal of idea about how many lists were drawn in the Eastern Churches such as Coptic and Ethiopic. The following are the canons drawn at various points of time in the Church history.
To complete the thoughts about how the New Testament evolved, a brief survey of early lists of the books of the New Testament is necessary. The list is taken from Appendix IV of Bruce Metzger's The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development[27].


The earliest exact reference to the 'complete' New Testament as we now know it was in the year 367 CE, in a letter by Athanasius. This did not settle the matter. Varying lists continued to be drawn up by different church authorities as can be seen from above.

The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the authority for the Canon and the interpretation of scripture, therefore the owner of the list of 27 books. Nevertheless, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, entry "Canon of NT" proclaims that 20 books of the New Testament are inherently worth more than the 7 deuterocanonical books (Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation), acknowledging that the authenticity or reliability of them had already been challenged by ancient Christian authorities.
The Catholic New Testament, as defined by the Council of Trent, does not differ, as regards the books contained, from that of all Christian bodies at present. Like the Old Testament, the New has its deuterocanonical books and portions of books, their canonicity having formerly been a subject of some controversy in the Church. These are for the entire books: the Epistle to the Hebrews, that of James, the Second of St. Peter, the Second and Third of John, Jude, and Apocalypse; giving seven in all as the number of the New Testament contested books. The formerly disputed passages are three: the closing section of St. Mark's Gospel, xvi, 9-20 about the apparitions of Christ after the Resurrection; the verses in Luke about the bloody sweat of Jesus, xxii, 43, 44; the Pericope Adulteræ, or narrative of the woman taken in adultery, St. John, vii, 53 to viii, 11. Since the Council of Trent it is not permitted for a Catholic to question the inspiration of these passages.[28]
We will deal more with the individual books (i.e., Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation) later, inshallah.

4. Church Tradition & 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books

Whatever this word 'inspiration' means in the Church tradition to select the books, it does not mean what it actually means. A small list of the following books which are not there in the present day New Testament were at once time considered 'inspired'. Going further in history as the concept of New Testament 'Canon' evolved many books were considered 'inspired' which we do not see in the Bibles of 20th century. A brief survey of those books would be considered here.

The Didache:
Several of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers were for a time regarded in some localities as authoritative. The Didache was used both by Clement of Alexandria and by Origen as Scripture, and there is evidence that during the following century it continued to be so regarded in Egypt.[29]
Epistle of Clement:
The text of the (First) Epistle of Clement is contained, along with a portion of the so-called Second Epistle of Clement, at the end of the fifth-century Codex Alexandrinus of the Greek Bible (the manuscript is defective at the end). Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all made use of the epistle. We know that about A.D. 170 it was customary to read 1 Clement in public services of worship at Corinth.[30]
Epistle of Barnabas:
The Epistle of Barnabas was for a time on the fringe of the canon. Clement of Alexandria regarded it as of sufficient importance to write a commentary on it in his Hypotyposes, now lost. Origen calls it 'catholic', a term that he elsewhere applies to 1 Peter and 1 John. It stands after the New Testament in the fourth-century Codex Sinaiticus of the Greek Bible.[31]
Shepherd of Hermas:
The Shepherd of Hermas was used as Scripture by Irenaeus, Tertullian (before his conversion to Montanism), Clement of Alexandria, and Origen, though according to Origen it was not generally read in church. The Muratorian Canon reflects the esteem in which the work was held at the time that list was compiled, but according to the unknown compiler, it might be read but not proclaimed as Scripture in church.[32]
Furthermore, Clement of Alexandria had a very 'open' canon, i.e., he did not mind using the materials of pagans, 'heretics' and other Christian literature.[33] It is worthwhile reminding here that we have already seen different set of books in Ethiopic and Coptic Church.

5. Church Tradition & Manuscripts

As much as there is a variation is the canons of the Bible as well as in its 'inspiration', it is reflected in the manuscripts too. Below is some material taken from The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Under "Text, NT". Interestingly enough, this section starts with The Problem. Many Christian apologists prefer to brush this well-known problem under the carpet as if it does not exist!
THE PROBLEM. The NT is now known, whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek MSS alone. Every one of these handwritten copics differ from every other one. In addition to these Greek MSS, the NT has been preserved in more than ten thousand MSS of the early versions and in thousands of quotations of the Church Fathers. These MSS of the versions and quotations of the Church Fathers differ from one another just as widely as do the Greek MSS. Only a fraction of this great mass of material has been fully collated and carefully studied. Until this task is completed, the uncertainty regarding the text of the NT will remain.

It has been estimated that these MSS and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher. A study of 150 Greek MSS of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings. It is true, of course, that the addition of the readings from another 150 MSS of Luke would not add another 30,000 readings to the list. But each MS studied does add substantially to the list of variants. It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS tradition is wholly uniform.

Many thousands of these different readings are variants in orthography or grammar or style and however effect upon the meaning of the text. But there are many thousands which have a definite effect upon the meaning of the text. It is true that not one of these variant readings affects the substance of Christian dogma. It is equally true that many of them do have theological significance and were introduced into the text intentionally. It may not, e.g., affect the substance of Christian dogma to accept the reading "Jacob the father of Joseph, and Joseph (to whom the virgin Mary was betrothed) the father of Jesus who is called 'Christ'" (Matt. 1:16), as does the Sinaitic Syriac; but it gives rise to a theological problem.

It has been said that the great majority of the variant readings in the text of the NT arose before the books of the NT were canonized and that after those books were canonized, they were very carefully copied because they were scripture. This, however, is far from being the case.

It is true, of course, that many variants arose in the very earliest period. There is no reason to suppose, e.g., that the first person who ever made a copy of the autograph of thc Gospel of Luke did not change his copy to conform to the particular tradition with which he was familiar. But he was under no compulsion to do so. Once the Gospel of Luke had become scripture, however, the picture was changed completely. Then the copyist was under compulsion to change his copy, to correct it. Because it was scripture, it had to be right.[34]
After reading all this, does not the Muslim position of the corruption of the Bible hold water? And of course, again which Bible manuscript is inspired?

Now we all know that none of the variants that are there in the Bible have a chain of narration or isnad. So it is very hard to say which one or ones is the true reading and the other the bogus one. So, futher on we read:
Many thousands of the variants which are found in the MSS of the NT were put there deliberately. They are not merely the result of error or of careless handling of the text. Many were created for theological or dogmatic reasons (even though they may not affect the substance of Christian dogma). It is because the books of the NT are religious books, sacred books, canonical books, that they were changed to conform to what the copyist believed to be the true reading. His interest was not in the "original reading but in the "true reading." This is precisely the attitude toward the NT which prevailed from the earliest times to the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the invention of printing. The thousands of Greek MSS, MSS of the versions, and quotations of the Church Fathers provide the source for our knowledge of the earliest or original text of the NT and of the history of the transmission of that text before the invention of printing.[34]
Now if you do not know what the "original reading" is, then there is no point talking about 'believing' in what is supposed to be the "original" reading. So, this is the great Christian Church tradition which cannot even produce two identical manuscripts! Furthermore on "original" reading one can say that since there are no original manuscripts, there is not point talking about "original" reading at all. This search for "original" reading would be a guess work or 'consensus'. Indeed the Acts of Apostles has earned the notoriety for the variant readings.
In fact no book of the NT gives evidence of so much verbal variation as does the Acts of Apostles. Besides the text represented in the oldest uncial Greek MSS, begin with the Codex Vaticanus, often called the Neutral Text and dating back to the second century AD, there is evidence either of a consistent alternative text equally old, or of a series of early miscellaneous variants, to which the name Western text is traditionally applied. The ancient authorities of the Western Text of Acts include only one Greek (or rather bilingual Greek and Latin) uncial MS, Codex Bezae of the fifth or sixth century. But the variants often have striking content and strong early support from Latin writers and Latin NT MSS. It now appears that while both the Neutral and Western texts were in circulation, the former is the more likely of the two to represent the original.[35]
Apart from the notorious variation, we also have the problem of which text is the original text. Since we do not know which one is original, the guess work in pressed into service. This is one such example of guess work. And how come guess work leads to truth?
We have already seen that the there is no original document of the Bible available to us to verify its inerrancy doctrine. Concerning the New Testament documents The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible confirms that:
The original copies of the NT books have, of course, long since disappeared. This fact should not cause surprise. In the first place, they were written on papyrus, a very fragile and persihable material. In the second place, and probably of even more importance, the original copies of the NT books were not looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities.[36]
So, the Qur'an in this aspect is far more better placed than the Bible with all the Qiraa'a associated with it clearly listed with detailed chain of narrations going back to the Companions of the Prophet(P) who in turn learnt the Qur'an from the Prophet(P) himself.

6. Church Tradition & The Six 'Disputed' Books

As we have seen above that the books of Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude and Revelation had quite a dubious history of the entry into the canon, it is time that we have a cursory glance over their comparatively recent history.

Zwingli, at the Berne disputation of 1528, denied that Revelation was a book of the New Testament.[37]

Martin Luther condemned the Epistle of James as worthless, an 'epistle of straw.' Furthermore, he denigrated Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation). He did not omit them from his German Bible, but drew a line in the table of contents, putting them on a lower level than the rest of the New Testament. In Prefaces to each of these books, Luther explains his doubts as to their apostolic as well as canonical authority.[38]

The reformer known as Andreas Bodenstein of Karlstadt (1480-1541) divided the New Testament into three ranks of differing dignity. On the lowest level are the seven disputed books of James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation).[39]
Oecolampadius in 1531 under Wurttemberg Confession declared that while all 27 books should be received, the Apocalypse (Revelation), James, Jude, 2 Peter 2 and 3 John should not be compared to the rest of the books.[40]
Early in his career, Erasmus (d. 1536) doubted that Paul was the author of Hebrews, and James of the epistle bearing the name. He also questioned the authorship of 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude. The style of Revelation precludes it from being written by the author of the Fourth Gospel.[41]
The same four books are labeled 'Apocrypha' in a Bible from Hamburg in 1596. In Sweden, beginning in 1618, the Gustavus Adolphus Bible labels the four dubious books as 'Apocryphal New Testament.' This arrangement lasted for more than a century.[42]
Conclusions

With all the gory details of the Church history and the Bible are out, with no clear cut indication of the Bible and its 'inspiration', why would any Muslim even bother to read it? And above all why should a Christian missionaries would push such a dubious set of scriptures down the throat of Muslims? And above all why call it injil?

cAbdullah Ibn Mascud, the well known Companion of the Prophet(P), is reported to have said:
Do not ask the ahl al-kitab about anything (in tafsir), for they cannot guide you and are themselves in error....[43]
If Christianity has got the biographies of the people who transmitted their New Testament or Old Testament as well as their traditions, it would compete with the Islamic science of hadîth. Alas, with no isnad, who is going to believe in their Bible and what is in it? And as the illustrious teacher of Imaam Bukhari had said:
"The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."
The lack of isnad and people drawing different Canons of the Bible seem to be the problem of people saying whatever they wished. Any one would claim anything and the Bible canon seems to reflect precisely that.
And look how bogus the missionary argument turned out to be!
A Few Questions
As Muslims we are obliged to ask:

  1. Which Bible or the books are inspired? Is it the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Ethiopic, Coptic or the Syriac? Please remember that they contain different number of books. It is just not the "oh! those are different translations".
  2. How can we trust the Church tradition when she herself cannot produce a reliable bunch of books worth calling a Bible?
  3. Why should we trust the Church which cannot even produce a set of manuscripts throughout the centuries which can be relied on instead of the guess work to find which reading is the original?
  4. How do we know that Jesus(P) said what is there in the Bible as there is no way of confirm how his words got transmitted? This is one of the major argument of Islamic traditionalists against the Older scriptures which deal with Israa'iliyat stuff. And they were rejected outright for very obvious reasons.

And if Christian missionaries cannot answer these question, there is no point calling the Bible as a reliable document. Therefore, an unreliable document is worth not calling a 'Scripture'.
Other Articles Related To The Textual Reliability Of The Bible
Islamic Awareness

Bible

Text

Church Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible


References
[1] Suhaib Hasan, An Introduction To The Science Of Hadîth, 1995, Darussalam Publishers, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, p. 11.
[2] Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105.
[3] W Montgomery Watt, What Is Islam?, 1968, Longman, Green and Co. Ltd., pp. 124-125.
[4] Henry Malter, Saadia Gaon: His Life And Works, 1921, The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia, pp. 39-40.
[5] Alfred Guillaume, The Legacy Of Islam, 1931, Oxford, p. ix.
[6] Bruce M Metzger & Michael D Coogan (Ed.), Oxford Companion To The Bible, 1993, Oxford University Press, Oxford & New York, pp. 79 (Under 'Bible').
[7] Ibid.
[8] Ibid.
[9] Ibid.
[10] Bruce M Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, 1997, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 225.
[11] Metzger, Oxford Companion To The Bible, Op.Cit, p. 79.
[12] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 227-228.
[13] Ibid., p. 219.
[14] Ibid., p. 220.
[15] The Catholic Encyclopedia Online Edition.
[16] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 43.
[17] Ibid., p. 49.
[18] Ibid., p. 49.
[19] Ibid., p. 50.
[20] Ibid., p. 51.
[21] Ibid., pp. 55-56.
[22] Ibid., pp. 58-59.
[23] Ibid., pp. 62-63.
[24] Ibid., p. 67.
[25] Ibid., pp. 71-72.
[26] Ibid., pp. 72-73.
[27] Ibid., pp. 305-315.
[28] The Catholic Encyclopedia Online Edition.
[29] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 187-188.
[30] Ibid., p. 188.
[31] Ibid.
[32] Ibid.
[33] Ibid., pp.130-135.
[34] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 4, 1962 (1996 Print), Abingdon Press, Nashville, pp. 594-595 (Under Text, NT).
[35] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 1, pp. 41 (Under "Acts of the Apostles").
[36] Ibid., p. 599 (Under "Text, NT').
[37] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 273.
[38] Ibid., p. 243.
[39] Ibid., pp. 241-242.
[40] Ibid., p. 244.
[41] Ibid., p. 241.
[42] Ibid., pp. 244-245.


:w:
Reply

Uthman
07-19-2009, 05:17 PM
Let's keep to discussing the authenticity of the Qur'an and not get sidetracked. Thank you. :)
Reply

- IqRa -
07-20-2009, 08:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by StudentMuslim
May I dare ask why? I believe if you get evidence of something, your belief in that doctrine is enhanced. Isn't that the case?

Plus I have read so much negative stuff in this forum. I am wondering if I am at the right place or not? Are you guys open to discussion? Because I am more of a Muslim who is slowly moving away from his faith. I might come back to Islam duirng my course of study I might not.
Your religion is based on faith. In this way, you will be wanting evidence of Heaven and Hell, which you can never get - that is all based on faith. If you are wanting evidence, then you will start looking for evidence of Allah as well (naudhubillah-may Allah protect us from this), and then your mind will become that of an atheists, who says that "nothing is there until proven" and they can never believe that Allah can be proved. Comprehende?
Reply

Hugo
07-20-2009, 10:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Another attempt by your person to deflect-- given you have no idea of the man or his work had I not actually written his name down here to google.. You are now an expert via google on pathology, microbiology and medical ethics?
the point has always been, having a grand title next to your name doesn't automatically a scholar make you or exempt you from error, except the people whose names you bring and allege scholarship are nothing but mere unread apostates and orientalist with an agenda not dissimilar to yours as such not even a title of scholarship has been bestowed upon them from a governing body for it to be taken away later as a matter of 'ethics' or research that is both unproved and unprovable!
It is YOU who brought in this Dr Martin as a way of deflecting or avoiding the argument. My I ask you:

1. What makes a scholar? Frankly, it looks like your definition is it is anyone who agrees with you or Islam.

2. Are ALL Orientalist bad scholars and if so do you know the name of the person who produce the worlds best Arabic lexicon, all 8 volumes of it used by scholars the world over whether Muslin or not?

3. Are all apostates and Orientalist automatically unread?

4. Is your view that the Qu'ran now in your possession that it has no faults whatever: grammar is perfect, poetry is perfect, rhythm is perfect etc. A plain yes or no will do.

5. Let us supposed that I or anyone can show that it is not perfect in any of these respects - what will you do, will your faith be in tatters?
Reply

Uthman
07-20-2009, 02:31 PM
Off-topic posts discussing whether Islam is based solely on faith have been moved to this thread. Normally, off-topic posts would be deleted but I decided to move them to a new thread since deleting these particular posts would have been a waste. This is the second time I have had to do this. If it happens again, infractions will be issued and if it persists even then, this thread will be closed.
Reply

جوري
07-20-2009, 02:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
It is YOU who brought in this Dr Martin as a way of deflecting or avoiding the argument. My I ask you:
Indeed, to make a point, which you haphazardly googled to make yourself into an insta-scholar, which you are not!
1. What makes a scholar? Frankly, it looks like your definition is it is anyone who agrees with you or Islam.
depends in what field one gains scholarship into and ifs/he upholds with maintenance in said field, as such, bringing an example of someone who has gained scholarship and failed to uphold the integrity of said title for whatever reasons, monetary gain, personal gain, hateful agenda, or early onset dementia may have such privileges questioned openly.

2. Are ALL Orientalist bad scholars and if so do you know the name of the person who produce the worlds best Arabic lexicon, all 8 volumes of it used by scholars the world over whether Muslin or not?
One not only questions the titles you bestow so freely but its extension to other fields. Say I accept that he produced the world's 'best Arabic lexicon' by what token does that extend itself to the Tawhid, fiqh, methodology, jurisprudence? further still by what rights is he able to produce conclusions for which there is no comparative studies? in other words where is his before that he so concludes differs in the after and what everyone else agrees upon?

3. Are all apostates and Orientalist automatically unread?
Those whose work I have come across are grossly absured, and can and have been easily refuted by others with actual knowledge in the field. You need only but browse the site given that any of you learned by 2nd hand usually happens at the hands of such apostates rather than learning at the source and come with the same cuts and pastes that elicit a merry guffaw from the rest.. Not merely for its strawman but for the bravado with which you display second hand wrong information.
Not only are you reading cliff notes, but reading the cliff notes of failures!

4. Is your view that the Qu'ran now in your possession that it has no faults whatever: grammar is perfect, poetry is perfect, rhythm is perfect etc. A plain yes or no will do.
Yes, it is perfect. The indisputable word of God!

5. Let us supposed that I or anyone can show that it is not perfect in any of these respects - what will you do, will your faith be in tatters?
No! my faith won't be in tatters
Reply

Hugo
08-05-2009, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
my pleasure indeed.. for a better more thorough read may I recommend a history of Quranic text from revelation to compilation by Dr. Al-Azami

I have looked art Dr Al-Azmai's book and it is well produced and referenced and his Islamic and other qualifications are impeccable. According to Dr Azami the book is 1/3 about the Bible and 2/3 about the Qu'ran so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.

Page xvi and xvii where either his bias causes him to loses his objectivity or he is simply a bit careless but either way he is very selective in his words.

He quotes Bruce Metzger who was (he died a few years ago) a distinguished New Testament scholar and here Azami tries to show that the Gospels are a 10th century creation for he (Azami) writes:

.. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...

but Metzger states within a section in his book that lists the important witnesses to the text of the New Testament and this manuscript goes by the designation "S"

This is one of the earliest[/B] dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel; a colophon states that is was written by a monk named Michael .....

One has to wonder why in his text Azami leaves out the word "one" and neither does he tell us that a colophon was involved. Frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT text are 10th century or later and one wonders what he understood by the words "were written" and is he trying to imply that the monk wrote the Gospels whereas the colophon inclusion makes it clear that what is meant here by written is copied?

There are many other issues in the text of this book if anyone wants to discuss it.


Refs:
Al-Azamiv, M. M., (2003), The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, ISBN 1-872531-65-2

Metzger, B. M., (1968), The Text of the New Testament, OUP, ISBN

(note Dr Azami quotes from Metzger's 3rd edition but the second is more readily available and the pages in question are identical)
Reply

جوري
08-05-2009, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I have looked art Dr Al-Azmai's book and it is well produced and referenced and his Islamic and other qualifications are impeccable. According to Dr Azami the book is 2/3 about the Bible and 1/3 about the Qu'ran so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.
lol, from which website did you leech your 'critique'?..
in fact from page 1-211 is dedicated entirely to the Quran. 211 on he discusses history of biblical scriptures, then the orientalist motivation in a book that is 339 pages I'll leave it to the discerning reader to do the math.
And in fact he is allowed to address other very pertinent topics a good book doesn't simply address one subject but espouses objectively other points of interest..

Page xvi and xvii where either his bias causes him to loses his objectivity or he is simply a bit careless but either way he is very selective in his words.
His preface is excellent and very objective.. I must admit you've tickled me pink with that comment. Do you just like subjects that appeal to your desired views even if they have no bearing in reality and especially when gauging a topic that is completely outside your sphere of expertise?

He quotes Bruce Metzger who was (he died a few years ago) a distinguished New Testament scholar and here Azami tries to show that the Gospels are a 10th century creation for he (Azami) writes:

.. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...

but Metzger states within a section in his book that lists the important witnesses to the text of the New Testament and this manuscript goes by the designation "S"
What exactly does that mean? What does S signify?

This is one of the earliest[/B] dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel; a colophon states that is was written by a monk named Michael .....

One has to wonder why in his text Azami leaves out the word "one" and neither does he tell us that a colophon was involved. Frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT text are 10th century or later and one wonders what he understood by the words "were written" and is he trying to imply that the monk wrote the Gospels whereas the colophon inclusion makes it clear that what is meant here by written is copied?
Page 151 he doesn't simply Quote metzger, he also cites Ernest Wurhwein, the text of the old Testament 2nd edition 2- Bart D. Ehrman. Orthodox corruption of the scriptures. Which he delves into with expansive detail in later chapters. so I am afraid the point you are trying to make here is lost to me and very moot at that!


There are many other issues in the text of this book if anyone wants to discuss it.


Refs:
Al-Azamiv, M. M., (2003), The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, ISBN 1-872531-65-2

Metzger, B. M., (1968), The Text of the New Testament, OUP, ISBN

(note Dr Azami quotes from Metzger's 3rd edition but the second is more readily available and the pages in question are identical)
The issues unfortunately are your own and ironically you don't see them as such when quoting orientalists that have been thoroughly annihilated in Dr. Al-Azami's excellent book!
but you are certainly welcome to address them!

all the best
Reply

rk9414
08-05-2009, 05:38 PM
Is the Quran Perfectly Preserved - Zawadi vs. Qureshi - 01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWK1x...e=channel_page

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQJwG...eature=channel
Reply

Hugo
08-05-2009, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
lol, from which website did you leech your 'critique'?.. in fact from page 1-211 is dedicated entirely to the Quran. 211 on he discusses history of biblical scriptures, then the orientalist motivation in a book that is 339 pages I'll leave it to the discerning reader to do the math.
And in fact he is allowed to address other very pertinent topics a good book doesn't simply address one subject but espouses objectively other points of interest..
I take exception to your remarks as they are totally unjustified and uncalled for. I have a copy of the book and have read it. If there are sites which critique this book then tell us where they are as I know of none and have searched for none.

In this case there are many points I would like to discuss and that is why I made the post. If you wish to discuss them then please do and refrain from making scurrilous accusation.
Reply

جوري
08-05-2009, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rk9414

he is not interested in all of that.. he is interested in dots and imaginary manuscripts that he can't find, yet ironically unable to subject his own biblcal forgeries to the similar critique if at all!
Reply

جوري
08-05-2009, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I take exception to your remarks as they are totally unjustified and uncalled for. I have a copy of the book and have read it. If there are sites which critique this book then tell us where they are as I know of none and have searched for none.

In this case there are many points I would like to discuss and that is why I made the post. If you wish to discuss them then please do and refrain from making scurrilous accusation.
Actually it is very justified and I have proven it above with simple math, and simple citations from said page.


all the best
Reply

Hugo
08-05-2009, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
His preface is excellent and very objective.. I must admit you've tickled me pink with that comment. Do you just like subjects that appeal to your desired views even if they have no bearing in reality and especially when gauging a topic that is completely outside your sphere of expertise?

What exactly does that mean? What does S signify?

Page 151 he doesn't simply Quote metzger, he also cites Ernest Wurhwein, the text of the old Testament 2nd edition 2- Bart D. Ehrman. Orthodox corruption of the scriptures. Which he delves into with expansive detail in later chapters. so I am afraid the point you are trying to make here is lost to me and very moot at that!

The issues unfortunately are your own and ironically you don't see them as such when quoting orientalists that have been thoroughly annihilated in Dr. Al-Azami's excellent book! but you are certainly welcome to address them!
all the best
Dealing with you points

1. You have to show it's objective and I have given one example where his objectivity is called into question.

2. All New Testament manuscripts are given an identifying code and in the one referred to by Dr Azami in the Metzger quote is commonly labelled "S"

3. I am aware that Dr Azami quotes many sources but in my post I cited one and gave you the page number and it seems to me in this case (we can look at others later) Dr Azami has been selective in order to imply an unjustified conclusion. If you see it differently then that is fine but please explain how you read that part of the text.

I mention this point and I will mention others because they call into question the scholarly even handedness of what Dr Azami is saying and how he make his case. I see nothing wrong in doing that in order to find out if Dr Azami can be trusted or not. Do you have a problem with that?
Reply

Hugo
08-05-2009, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Actually it is very justified and I have proven it above with simple math, and simple citations from said page.

all the best
I was talking about your accusation - "from which website did you leech your 'critique'?" and I object to it because I gave clear and exact references. Your point about math is justified but if you look you will see I corrected my post as soon as I realised I had put 1/3 and 2/3 backwards but I was referring to Dr Azami's own words on page xv.
Reply

جوري
08-05-2009, 06:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Dealing with you points

1. You have to show it's objective and I have given one example where his objectivity is called into question.
There is more to objectivity, than your mere subjective view of it.
You have actualyl done no such a thing as 'shown me'-- firstly you've failed to understand the book with a pre-conceived brusque dismissal of its veracity resting on the failure of the NT. Which is in fact not true at all. Anyone who have merely opened the book will not only see side by side comparative early manuscripts, evolution of Arabic pre-dating Aramaic, with inscriptions on early rocks all throughout Arabia, as well different styles of writing, from Cursive, Kufi.. to Arabic paleography and orthography.. and a very well detailed account of the early hafith, the dissemination of the Quranic text and the institutionalizing of scholars to teach the content therein.
Yet you have the audacity to sit there and tell me how the Quran's authenticity rests on the failure of the OT as per this book? Without any regard to later chapters the book has gone into dates, names and account from pre-Islamic Arabia to Muslim conquests, leads me to one of two conclusions
1- You've never read the book
2- You have bought and dismissed it because you don't like the truth therein!

2. All New Testament manuscripts are given an identifying code and in the one referred to by Dr Azami in the Metzger quote is commonly labelled "S"
Again, I don't see the applicability of this to the discussion!
Do you have a passage at hand that is a reality that he has passed off as forgery?

3. I am aware that Dr Azami quotes many sources but in my post I cited one and gave you the page number and it seems to me in this case (we can look at others later) Dr Azami has been selective in order to imply an unjustified conclusion. If you see it differently then that is fine but please explain how you read that part of the text.
Actually, you are the one who is selective since you have failed to mention the other two scholars on the same page and their comments to a particular passage!
I mention this point and I will mention others because they call into question the scholarly even handedness of what Dr Azami is saying and how he make his case. I see nothing wrong in doing that in order to find out if Dr Azami can be trusted or not. Do you have a problem with that?
I have a problem with prevaricators yes, but in this case it is quite easy to point out where...
in the future and for your own sake, try to spend more time on subject matter than adhoms and red herrings, as you have seen in this case the circuitous route has failed to avail you!...


all the best
Reply

جوري
08-05-2009, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I was talking about your accusation - "from which website did you leech your 'critique'?" and I object to it because I gave clear and exact references. Your point about math is justified but if you look you will see I corrected my post as soon as I realised I had put 1/3 and 2/3 backwards but I was referring to Dr Azami's own words on page xv.

You have corrected it as soon as you realized, I have the book at hand and can leaf through it. I'd choose what I write from now on very wisely.. taking us for a ride on the country side in this case isn't going to work in your favor.. and in fact if you are willing to lie and see if you can get away with it 'once', well foreshadows your ethics in general.. except, I have actually known that all along, despite of admin's attempts to prove to me that you are a scholar and not a troll!


all the best
Reply

جوري
08-05-2009, 06:56 PM
page 151 the one in question and let me quote:

" The first of these relates to the OT, the others to the NT. All three meticulously categorize mistakes of this nature with terms like transpositions, haplography, and dittography. Occasionally probing into the very mind of the now deceased scribe to show what distraction must have flashed through his mind as he committed his silly mistakes thousands of years ago 1 refer to pp. 243-4 and 287-9
but the same testament isn't afforded the Quran. And in fact many errors-- obvious scribal blunders resulting from exhaustion-- are treated as genuine variants, as evidence of corruption in the Muslim holy book.

True that it is difficult to ascertain whether an error is intentional or deliberate, let's us therefore tackle the two possibilities. etc etc etc...

care to show me how the 'S' in Metzger's work relates to what is written in the page you've cited and left out the other two mentioned?
Reply

Hugo
08-05-2009, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
There is more to objectivity, than your mere subjective view of it. You have actualyl done no such a thing as 'shown me'-- firstly you've failed to understand the book with a pre-conceived brusque dismissal of its veracity resting on the failure of the NT. Which is in fact not true at all. Anyone who have merely opened the book will not only see side by side comparative early manuscripts, evolution of Arabic pre-dating Aramaic, with inscriptions on early rocks all throughout Arabia, as well different styles of writing, from Cursive, Kufi.. to Arabic paleography and orthography.. and a very well detailed account of the early hafith, the dissemination of the Quranic text and the institutionalizing of scholars to teach the content therein.
Yet you have the audacity to sit there and tell me how the Quran's authenticity rests on the failure of the OT as per this book? Without any regard to later chapters the book has gone into dates, names and account from pre-Islamic Arabia to Muslim conquests, leads me to one of two conclusions
1- You've never read the book
2- You have bought and dismissed it because you don't like the truth therein!Again, I don't see the applicability of this to the discussion!
Do you have a passage at hand that is a reality that he has passed off as forgery?
Actually, you are the one who is selective since you have failed to mention the other two scholars on the same page and their comments to a particular passage!
I have a problem with prevaricators yes, but in this case it is quite easy to point out where...
in the future and for your own sake, try to spend more time on subject matter than adhoms and red herrings, as you have seen in this case the circuitous route has failed to avail you!...
all the best
One hopes that you will read the post but:

1. I pointed out an inconsistency in Azami's book on page xv and xvi and gave my interpretation. You are now free to look at the same text and agree or offer a different account.

2. You are right about the book being comparative but I was not referring to anything other that the page I cited. I made no comment about Arabic script, the veracity or otherwise for the NT, OT, hadith or Qu'ranic dissemination or authenticity, I have not dismissed the book indeed I have done none of the things you mention and I suggest you stop inventing and I ask that you simply read the post and respond on what was said if you wish to and can.

The book is about 375 pages long and no one can in all honesty deal with that in one post and that is why I started where I did and if there is any interest I will work through it bit by bit. Nothing else is reasonable is it?

3. On the page I mentioned only Metzger has any relevance to my point and you seem to be talking about page 151 and I did not mention that at all.

4. You seem to be suggesting that I am attacking Dr Azami at a personal level rather like you are attacking me here. But all I was doing was attempting to establish whether the work is an unbiased scholarly account and that is perfectly reasonable. I am sure you agree as you often attack Orientalists on the same ground.
Reply

Hugo
08-05-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
page 151 the one in question and let me quote:

"The first of these relates to the OT, the others to the NT. All three meticulously categorize mistakes of this nature with terms like transpositions, haplography, and dittography. Occasionally probing into the very mind of the now deceased scribe to show what distraction must have flashed through his mind as he committed his silly mistakes thousands of years ago 1 refer to pp. 243-4 and 287-9[/B]
but the same testament isn't afforded the Quran. And in fact many errors-- obvious scribal blunders resulting from exhaustion-- are treated as genuine variants, as evidence of corruption in the Muslim holy book.

True that it is difficult to ascertain whether an error is intentional or deliberate, let's us therefore tackle the two possibilities. etc etc etc...

care to show me how the 'S' in Metzger's work relates to what is written in the page you've cited and left out the other two mentioned?
This is a quotation from Azimi's book page 151 but I have no idea why you introduce it in response to my post because I never mentioned any of the ideas dealt with here in post 86. I will comment on this page later but can we stick to the pages I mentioned for the time being.

I have already explained what the designation "S" implies. It has no significance with regard to errors of any kind or authenticity, it is just the way that Biblical scholars refer to the particular manuscript mention by Metzger. I only mentioned it in case someone wanted to go a little deeper.

Post 86 asks why Dr Azami omitted a critical word with regard to what Metzger actually said and that is at the heart of my question in post 86.
Reply

جوري
08-05-2009, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
One hopes that you will read the post but:

1. I pointed out an inconsistency in Azami's book on page xv and xvi and gave my interpretation. You are now free to look at the same text and agree or offer a different account.
Which part did you dislike? was it this?
Orientalists have often focused on the possibility of deep seated corruption crawling into the text within this time span. Strangely many biblical scholars deem the text of the OT to be historically viable even though some of the OT book were maintained purely as an oral tradition for up to 8 centuries source cited at the end of the page.
or orientalist spotlight has been on the Arabic script with discussions of its shortcomings, though it only took a half a century from the prophet's death for the text to evolve and extinguish its initial ambiguities? They blame this period again for triggering textual distortions, though in doing so they contradict themselves and negate their earlier emphasis on 'oral transmission' (which is a fact, in that people were memorizing the Quran even while they possessed it in written form) etc etc etc
To be quite honest, I am not seeing what you are seeing, he is clearly pointing out the hypocrisy of accepting an oral tradition as true to a T after 8 centuries while denying the same truth to Quranic text even whilst it was passed on orally, they possessed it in written form!

Perhaps there is something you've picked on that we have missed considering he doesn't speak of whim rather well sources all that he writes which ironically isn't even critiqued by Muslim scholars so we could dismiss their distortions as a leeway to perpetuate their own agenda!

2. You are right about the book being comparative but I was not referring to anything other that the page I cited. I made no comment about Arabic script, the veracity or otherwise for the NT, OT, hadith or Qu'ranic dissemination or authenticity, I have not dismissed the book indeed I have done none of the things you mention and I suggest you stop inventing and I ask that you simply read the post and respond on what was said if you wish to and can.
You wrote and pls allow me to Quote.
Originally Posted by Hugo


-- According to Dr Azami the book is 2/3 about the Bible and 1/3 about the Qu'ran so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.
amongst other things, come on man, it was just last page.. If you have other intentions by your words then why not choose other words?


The book is about 375 pages long and no one can in all honesty deal with that in one post and that is why I started where I did and if there is any interest I will work through it bit by bit. Nothing else is reasonable is it?
You made a comment about one scholar in the book whom if I leaf simply through the index since I don't know the pages by heart, I find a brief mention of his name with two others, none of the text on said page is about the work of any of the three, and the fellow isn't mentioned elsewhere according to the index alone where his name is referenced on page 151.. how exactly would you like me to interpret that?
If the topic is too lengthy and you are not adept at discussing it at length, by all means, I promise I too have better things to do with my life, I'd have rather been completing my chapter on the physiology of heart contraction in my other lengthy thread if nothing else at all with the rest of my day, nonetheless you brought it up.. I didn't start this but I'll finish it.. It is just good manners!

3. On the page I mentioned only Metzger has any relevance to my point and you seem to be talking about page 151 and I did not mention that at all.
I know you left a name and as per above I followed the index to see how he is pertinent and found a mention of him on page 151 alone-- leaving me in a tizzy as to the pertinenece of s's and o's

4. You seem to be suggesting that I am attacking Dr Azami at a personal level rather like you are attacking me here. But all I was doing was attempting to establish whether the work is an unbiased scholarly account and that is perfectly reasonable. I am sure you agree as you often attack Orientalists on the same ground.
Not at all, I attack orientalist as per first pargraph on hypocrisy in dealing with Islamic text, which they can't seem to bestow similar integrity in loaning biblical text.. Nonetheless, not only are they far off, but they have also failed to show how in such a brief period of time Quranic text could have been corrupted or a before and after of the corruption, and as stated above, Dr. Al-Azami's book is more defensive than offensive, whatever 'offense' you might find therein is actually cited by western scholars, not Muslim ones...


all the best!
Reply

جوري
08-05-2009, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
This is a quotation from Azimi's book page 151 but I have no idea why you introduce it in response to my post because I never mentioned any of the ideas dealt with here in post 86. I will comment on this page later but can we stick to the pages I mentioned for the time being.

I have already explained what the designation "S" implies. It has no significance with regard to errors of any kind or authenticity, it is just the way that Biblical scholars refer to the particular manuscript mention by Metzger. I only mentioned it in case someone wanted to go a little deeper.

Post 86 asks why Dr Azami omitted a critical word with regard to what Metzger actually said and that is at the heart of my question in post 86.
Go to the index of The History of The Quranic text, page 367
and follow it down to Metzger, Bruce M., 151
to put it in plain English, you mentioned this guy as having been misquoted or misrepresented in some form, which you failed to expound on as pertains to Dr. Al-Azami. I went to the index to see where Dr. Al'Azami made the error.. I found this fellow's name mentioned with two others and nothing in the following text pertinent to S's or O's in fact I have gone so far above as to write out the paragraph subsequent to their name mention.. either way I am still not sure even if he really did make a mistake, where it is, as you deliberately choose ambiguity and throw in random terminology from which the reader is to decipher what s/he may.. try to walk in the light Hugo.. one thing to be astray and another thing to lead the herd astray with you simply because you are banking on their ignorance of a topic where your own knowledge is quite superficial!

I don't want distillate if we are discussing issues of this caliber I'd like the finite details as per al-azami's book.. and you are welcome to walk free from it as well, as stated above, this is and has been a complete waste as you enjoy going thoroughly on tangentiality if not actual circumstantiality. It doesn't take a scholar to understand the text.. all one really needs is to sit down and actually read!


all the best!
Reply

Hugo
08-06-2009, 10:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Go to the index of The History of The Quranic text, page 367. and follow it down to Metzger, Bruce M., 151
to put it in plain English, you mentioned this guy as having been misquoted or misrepresented in some form, which you failed to expound on as pertains to Dr. Al-Azami. I went to the index to see where Dr. Al'Azami made the error.. I found this fellow's name mentioned with two others and nothing in the following text pertinent to S's or O's in fact I have gone so far above as to write out the paragraph subsequent to their name mention.. either way I am still not sure even if he really did make a mistake, where it is, as you deliberately choose ambiguity and throw in random terminology from which the reader is to decipher what s/he may.. try to walk in the light Hugo.. one thing to be astray and another thing to lead the herd astray with you simply because you are banking on their ignorance of a topic where your own knowledge is quite superficial!

I don't want distillate if we are discussing issues of this caliber I'd like the finite details as per al-azami's book.. and you are welcome to walk free from it as well, as stated above, this is and has been a complete waste as you enjoy going thoroughly on tangentiality if not actual circumstantiality. It doesn't take a scholar to understand the text.. all one really needs is to sit down and actually read!all the best!
I don't quite understand why you are having such difficulty and I wonder if you actually read my post with any kind of care and instead shot off to indexes and page 151 and all over the place so perhaps you should take your own advice. If it is my fault here is my post again with details as exact as I can make them. I assume you have access to the copies quoted below.

I have looked at Dr Al-Azmai's book and it is well produced and referenced and his Islamic and other qualifications are impeccable. According to Dr Azami the book is 1/3 about the Bible and 2/3 about the Qu'ran (page xv first para) so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.

Bottom few lines of Page xvi and top few lines of page xvii where either his bias causes him to loses his objectivity or he is simply a bit careless but either way he is very selective (tendentious?) in his words.

He quotes Bruce Metzger (see footnote 5 mentioned in line 2 of page xvii) who was (he died a few years ago) a distinguished New Testament scholar and here Azami tries to show that the Gospels are a 10th century creation for he (Azami) writes in line 1 and 2 of page xvii

.. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...

but Metzger states within a section in his book that lists the important witnesses to the text of the New Testament and this manuscript goes by the designation "S" for reference purposes amongst Scholars.

This is one of the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel; a colophon states that is was written by a monk named Michael .....

One has to wonder why in his text Azami leaves out the critical word "one" and neither does he tell us that a colophon was involved. Frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT texts are 10th century or later and one wonders what he understood by the words "were written" and is he trying to imply that the monk wrote the Gospels whereas the colophon inclusion makes it clear that what is meant here by written is copied?

Refs:
Al-Azamiv, M. M., (2003), The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, ISBN 1-872531-65-2
Metzger, B. M., (1968), The Text of the New Testament, OUP, ISBN
(note Dr Azami quotes from Metzger's 3rd edition but the second is more readily available and the pages in question are identical)
Reply

جوري
08-06-2009, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I don't quite understand why you are having such difficulty and I wonder if you actually read my post with any kind of care and instead shot off to indexes and page 151 and all over the place so perhaps you should take your own advice. If it is my fault here is my post again with details as exact as I can make them. I assume you have access to the copies quoted below.
I can't make sense at all of your points if any in fact exist. I have no idea what the significance of S as pertains to the preface of the book, and it really doesn't matter as I'll write out the details of the text and then we can see who is exactly misleading and mislead!

I have looked at Dr Al-Azmai's book and it is well produced and referenced and his Islamic and other qualifications are impeccable. According to Dr Azami the book is 1/3 about the Bible and 2/3 about the Qu'ran (page xv first para) so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.
firstly, I can find no page XV? The book starts VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XIXII, XIII, XIV, preface, then XVI, XVII,XVIII, XIX,XX, XXI then XXII then chapter one. leading me to believe that the 1/3 2/3 are your desired rendition that you desperately wish to be included so you can find fault where none exists .. where in the book does his premise stand out that the Quran is authentic because the bible is not? I'd really love to see that-- The book goes into great details about the history and compilation of the Quran completely separate from the other counter parts, if anything the book is meticulous detail as to where orientalists fail to subject the NT, OT to the same scrutiny and that neither book would stand a chance.

Now for me, the failure of the NT is in its basic core tenet not in the process of its transmission of compilation which in fact leaves little to be desired all on its own, but the man/god impregnating a woman with himself, praying to himself, forsaking himself, ineffectual at best and completely counter intuitive and you'll find that, that is what throws most people off not simply whether it was written by a disciple of Jesus or not (which obviously it wasn't) . One doesn't need to read the bible or scrutnaize it for such a conclusion. It fails on its own merits. If I don't accept that 1+1+1 =1 then nothing else built on that faulty premise will stand even if there is slight truth infiltrating it. please try again with more thought this time!

Also I still I can't figure out why you are so riled up that he discuses orientalists and NT,OT in there?.. is it because there is truth about said books and said orientalists that you have no desire to see? It is quite easy to know what the book is about anyone can see above
A History of The Qur'anic Text from Revelation to compilation then directly beneath it A comparative Study with the Old and New Testament. It says it right on the cover there is nothing misleading about what you'd have to embark on. Which actually leaves me to a loss as to why you keep mentioning this point over and over, it isn't like you had to leaf through it to be surprised by content.. the cover is above for all to see!
Bottom few lines of Page xvi and top few lines of page xvii where either his bias causes him to loses his objectivity or he is simply a bit careless but either way he is very selective (tendentious?) in his words.
Not at all, it is very well referenced, until you show us otherwise:

and pls allow me to quote the bottom of XVI

Judaism and Christianity are undoubtedly religions in history, but where the doubt does arise is on the authorship of the OT. The answer can't be established. The OT was initially considered a work of revelation, but was later deemed a work of Moses; the latest theory is that multiple sources (extending over approximately one thousand years) contributed to authorship of the five books of Moses 8 (Muslims believe that the Torah and Zabur were revealed and subsequently lost of corrupted. A very small percentage of the current OT may contain the original revelation , but it is scattered throughout the text. Recognizing it is difficult, the only criterion is that it must agree with the teachings of the Qur'an and sunnah) Who were these shadow writers, how honest and accurate were they? How reliable their knowledge of the incidents? and how did their knowledge eventually reach us? The only known facts are that OT books appeared on the scene only to disappear promptly for a few hundred years, before abruptly resurfacing See Kings 14-16. Again they appeared without a trace for many centuries.

Now notice that that is the last paragraph on said page.. you should have actually referenced us to the first paragraph which states.
The earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel were written c. The The 10th century C.E. 5 According to B.M Metzger, ''.......one of the earliest Greek manuscripts of the Gospels...... was written by a monk named Micheal in the year of the world 6457 (=A.D 949). It is now in the Vatican library (no. 354)'' [ the The Text if the New Testament: Its transmission, Corruption, Restoration, 3rd enlarged edition, Oxford Univ. Press, 1992, P 56. For more details see this work PP 285-6

He quotes Bruce Metzger (see footnote 5 mentioned in line 2 of page xvii) who was (he died a few years ago) a distinguished New Testament scholar and here Azami tries to show that the Gospels are a 10th century creation for he (Azami) writes in line 1 and 2 of page xvii
see previous paragraph which I have quoted in full about the work of mitzger

.. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...

but Metzger states within a section in his book that lists the important witnesses to the text of the New Testament and this manuscript goes by the designation "S" for reference purposes amongst Scholars.
How do the witnesses designated as 'S' change the fact of the matter on the earliest dated and properly referenced The Text if the New Testament: Its transmission, Corruption, Resotration, 3rd enlarged edition, Oxford Univ.?
do folks make a habit of writing about all sections of another book in the preface, or do you mean that mitzger contradicted himself in later chapters let's have a look at the protracted details referenced to us by Dr. Al. Azami in relation to Mitzger pp 285
entitled Variant readings in the NT

Greek handwriting in antiquity consisted of two styles. The first was cursive written rapidly and used for everyday affairs, the second more formal called unical

there is then a figure 17.1 entitled
example of Greek unical script. Note that the text lacks dividers between adjacent words. Source: mitzger, The text of the NT, P 10
In time the Unical script began to deteriorate, necessitating a script writing reform during the 9th C C.E The resulting style was labeled minuscule 32 ibid, p 9. There are approximately 2800 fragmentary pieces of the NT written in minuscule, and about one tenth as many in unical, but if we limit ourselves to manuscripts containing the entire NT then the number plummets dramatically etc etc he goes on then to show variant readings and scribal alterations. with original reproduction figures, almost making your objections petty in comparison for even if I am to take what you say at face value, I'd not think differently after seeing all these discrepancies.. and you end up clutching on to a straw and gasping for air!
This is one of the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel; a colophon states that is was written by a monk named Michael .....
Again, it seems to me like you are splitting hairs, is the info included above not in fact found to a T in properly referenced The Text if the New Testament: Its transmission, Corruption, Restoration, 3rd enlarged edition, Oxford Univ.?
One has to wonder why in his text Azami leaves out the critical word "one" and neither does he tell us that a colophon was involved. Frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT texts are 10th century or later and one wonders what he understood by the words "were written" and is he trying to imply that the monk wrote the Gospels whereas the colophon inclusion makes it clear that what is meant here by written is copied?
I don't see the significance of either (see above comments) since in this preface the NT isn't the subject matter of interest and if we continue to read on from where I have left off:
This discrepancy in the attitudes toward the Qur'an on the one hand and the OT and NT on the other, must be addressed if we are to fully assess the Qur'an's integrity.
The established practice since the dawn of Islamic literary history was that any religious text (hadith, tafsir, fiqh) etc had to be transmitted by those who had learned the work directly from its authors, they in turn teaching it to the next generation. Full records of these transmissions were kept etc etc etc.
Plain and simple in this preface whether we are to include your hangups over the mystery 'S' or 'one' it wouldn't change anything on bit, the preface is plainly trying to establish a full historical account of transmission of important religious text from its inception, which is in fact not the case for either of the two previous out of admission of western scholars not Muslim ones.

Refs:
Al-Azamiv, M. M., (2003), The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, ISBN 1-872531-65-2
Metzger, B. M., (1968), The Text of the New Testament, OUP, ISBN
(note Dr Azami quotes from Metzger's 3rd edition but the second is more readily available and the pages in question are identical)
I'd recommend folks stick with the third edition since later editions usually include more info.

all the best
Reply

Hugo
08-06-2009, 08:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I can't make sense at all of your points if any in fact exist. I have no idea what the significance of S as pertains to the preface of the book, and it really doesn't matter as I'll write out the details of the text and then we can see who is exactly misleading and mislead!

firstly, I can find no page XV? The book starts VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XIXII, XIII, XIV, preface, then XVI, XVII,XVIII, XIX,XX, XXI then XXII then chapter one.
I am not sure we can have a meaningful discussion if you cannot even find the pages although I am puzzled why your are finding such a simple task so hard to do. So

1. Are you using ISBN 1-872531-65-2, just in case there is an American edition?

2. Secondly although I am giving page numbers they are NOT always printed in the book so one has to use simple logic, common sense to see what is going on. I have NO idea why publishers do this but some pages don't have printed numbers but that is the way it is.

So IF you look at the first page of the preface you will see it has NO page number but the previous and subsequent ones do. Therefore it is obvious that the first page of the preface is in fact page xv, indeed if you look in the contents list on page vii it tells you plainly the preface starts on page xv.

3. Did you not wonder why this book, any book would appear to start at page 6 (vi). Did you not notice that no page number is printed on the first page of chapter 1 yet a page number for it is in the content list?
Reply

جوري
08-06-2009, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I am not sure we can have a meaningful discussion if you cannot even find the pages although I am puzzled why your are finding such a simple task so hard to do. So

1. Are you using ISBN 1-872531-65-2, just in case there is an American edition?
You are right, there is no meaningful discussion if you desire to be deceptive. I have listed the paged exactly as in the book and no such page where the author alleges 1/3 Quran 2/3 bible with the integrity of the Quran resting on the errors of the bible exists exists!
There is only one version of the book as far as I am concerned since it is written in the British style, I conclude that the version I have is the only vrsion there is!
2. Secondly although I am giving page numbers they are NOT always printed in the book so one has to use simple logic, common sense to see what is going on. I have NO idea why publishers do this but some pages don't have printed numbers but that is the way it is.
You have given me letters and I have indeed followed them they've excluded the page of your rendering. I have started from the cover and worked my way to first chapter. Again no such nonsense as you've concluded exists therein! Do you wish to invent your own addendum to be included because the content is such a truthful slap in the face?

So IF you look at the first page of the preface you will see it has NO page number but the previous and subsequent ones do. Therefore it is obvious that the first page of the preface is in fact page xv, indeed if you look in the contents list on page vii it tells you plainly the preface starts on page xv.
The preface has no number and not particularly ironic states something entirely different to what you allege:
It states: The reader may be puzzled as to why 1/3 of the material in this book tackles the OT and the NT on that alone I have concluded that your previous 1/3 Quran 2/3 bible is a concoction of your desires. Quite the opposite in fact, he also goes on to tell us
The idea of authoring a book about the preservation of the Quran, about its collection and immaculate preservation, had long germinated my mind and approximately three and a half years ago I finally began working on this book along side another entitled Islamic studies: What methodology? It was journalist Toby Lester's article in the Atlantic Monthly (jan 1999) however and the chaos it had the potential to sow amongst Muslims, which prompted a greater concentration on this work. His article suggested that Muslims, despite believing the Quran as the unadulterated Book of Allah, were thoroughly incapable of defending their views in a scholarly fashion.. The gauntlet was thrown and I felt it necessary to take on this challenge and explain the stringent methodology used by early Muslim scholars in accepting a text as genuine or rejecting it as fake. This has lead to the unavoidable repetition of some material in both books. As most of the scholars that lester quotes are either jews or Christians. I also considered it fitting to cover the histories of the old and New testament by way of comparison.
I think his intentions are quite defined and no where in those words have I read 2/3 OT/NT or that the veracity of the Quran rests on the falsehood of the bible.. it is but an excellent side by side comparison and a direct result to an blatant offense, which he accepted and challenged in return!

3. Did you not wonder why this book, any book would appear to start at page 6 (vi)?
No, I didn't wonder, I don't like to waste my time on semantics and useless extraneous details that have no bearing on the subject matter.. Are you simply hoping you'd tire me out?
Why don't you try to walk in the light and quote correctly and not ad lib with little or no preparation or forethought, as I have already shown you that I have the book and even though it has been a while since I have read it, I still have an idea of the material therein, and your desired rendition of what it is about is very deviated from what it actually is about!


all the best
Reply

جوري
08-06-2009, 09:12 PM
BTW as an addendum to the above and refresher.. does everyone else see:
A comparative study with the old and New testament right on the cover?



he has already listed the reasons for writing the book, so I really don't want hammered in over and over this moot point:

Originally Posted by Hugo (Authenticity of the Qur'an)


-- According to Dr Azami the book is 2/3 about the Bible and 1/3 about the Qu'ran so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.

It is neither the premise, nor the subject matter.. Dr. Al-Azami not only cleared and dispelled myths about the Quran and the orientalist accusations he faced, accepted and challenged back. Which should only be applauded not rendered into a different definition of a staunch orientalist sympathizer's choosing...

on a side note: I'd also like to recommend his book
On Sachacht's Origins of Muhammdan Jurisprudence!


:w:
Reply

Hugo
08-07-2009, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You are right, there is no meaningful discussion if you desire to be deceptive etc etc all the best
Sadly I conclude it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion with you about Dr Azami's book because either you are simply unable to deal with it rationally at an intellectual level or your aim is entirely destructive. Your typically vindictive words were well described by Prophet David when he said in Psalm 31 : “Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly with disdain and contempt."

Firstly, for example you stated “you have given me letters... I have started from the cover and worked my way to first chapter. Again no such nonsense as you've concluded exists therein” and I can find no page XV? The book starts VI, VII, .. XXII then chapter one.”

Who rationally would regard Roman numeral as letters and any one can see the first 22 pages of the book are numbered using Roman numerals starting at i and ending at xxii with no missing pages. From what you say it is only possible to conclude that you have never heard of Roman numerals and have no understanding of publishing conventions either.

Secondly, I asked as way of helping you find relevant pages “Did you not wonder why this book, any book would appear to start at page 6 (vi) or why the first page of chapter 1 had no page number?” You said “No, I didn't wonder, I don't like to waste my time on semantics and useless extraneous details that have no bearing on the subject matter. Are you simply hoping you'd tire me out?” Thus showing you have zero interest in exact referencing because you don’t seem to know what page numbers are and that may explain why you cannot find them and that implies you cannot even read a content list or an index.

What am I to conclude about your capacity therefore to deal with the substantive elements of this discussion?
Reply

جوري
08-07-2009, 08:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Sadly I conclude it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion with you about Dr Azami's book because either you are simply unable to deal with it rationally at an intellectual level or your aim is entirely destructive. Your typically vindictive words were well described by Prophet David when he said in Psalm 31 : “Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly with disdain and contempt."
You'd rather cohere to ridiculous hangups as far as pithy sayings go and I know you appreciate good ones as you so often resort when at a loss for ammo, if you can't dazzle them with science or in this case well researched work baffle them with bull ****!

Though speaking of Arrogance, I much rather prefer the Noble Quran chapter 35:

43 their arrogant behaviour on earth, and their devising of evil [arguments against God's messages].33 Yet [in the end,] such evil scheming will engulf none but its authors; and can they expect anything but [to be made to go] the way of those [sinners] of olden times?34 Thus [it is]: no change wilt thou ever find in God's way; yea, no deviation wilt thou ever find in God's way!

44 Have they never journeyed about the earth and beheld what happened in the end to those [deniers of the truth] who lived before their time and were [so much] greater than they in power? And [do they not see that the will of] God can never be foiled by anything whatever in the heavens or on earth, since, verily, He is all-knowing, infinite in His power?

45 Now if God were to take men [at once] to task for whatever [wrong] they commit [on earth], He would not leave a single living creature upon its surface. However, He grants them respite for a term set [by Him]:35 but when their term comes to an end - then, verily, [they come to know that] God sees all that is in the hearts of His servants.
_____________________________

Again and for the third time.. it would do you better to walk in the light, especially when dealing with holy text than go for the tool around filling pages on end with mindless drivel!



Firstly, for example you stated “you have given me letters... I have started from the cover and worked my way to first chapter. Again no such nonsense as you've concluded exists therein” and I can find no page XV? The book starts VI, VII, .. XXII then chapter one.”

Who rationally would regard Roman numeral as letters and any one can see the first 22 pages of the book are numbered using Roman numerals starting at i and ending at xxii with no missing pages. From what you say it is only possible to conclude that you have never heard of Roman numerals and have no understanding of publishing conventions either.
ah forgive me indeed, is it almost as absurd as spending a paragraph writing about Roman numerals on a thread entitled 'Authenticity of the Qur'an'?

Secondly, I asked as way of helping you find relevant pages “Did you not wonder why this book, any book would appear to start at page 6 (vi) or why the first page of chapter 1 had no page number?” You said “No, I didn't wonder, I don't like to waste my time on semantics and useless extraneous details that have no bearing on the subject matter. Are you simply hoping you'd tire me out?” Thus showing you have zero interest in exact referencing because you don’t seem to know what page numbers are and that may explain why you cannot find them and that implies you cannot even read a content list or an index.
Again that must be it. It is after all me who is making side notes for the author rather than quoting him (as I in fact have done on every thread) I keep wondering how many more pages of this thread you wish to derange on furnishings for support rather than cut the crap? You can't simply say read the first paragraph below the preface, because well, that would just be too simple and paint a clear picture that what you wrote and what is actually written are at odds? in such a case you'd not be able to spend an entire page alleging how you can't engage in a meaningful dialogue; And if you can't do that, then what is left of ammo when the book has dealt with all your misconceptions and misgivings head on?!


What am I to conclude about your capacity therefore to deal with the substantive elements of this discussion?
You've already concluded a few pages back and we'd have been better off ceasing then as you seem to have alot of free time and delusions of grandeur on your hands, and for a reason unbeknown to me you need to ensnare the whole in equal erroneous beliefs along with your person.. nonetheless I think the culmination of this thread was summed up perfectly on this post:





Originally Posted by Hugo (Authenticity of the Qur'an)


-- According to Dr Azami the book is 2/3 about the Bible and 1/3 about the Qu'ran so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.
It is neither the premise, nor the subject matter.. Dr. Al-Azami not only cleared and dispelled myths about the Quran and the orientalist accusations he faced, accepted and challenged back. Which should only be applauded not rendered into a different definition of a staunch orientalist sympathizer's choosing...
If I am at a loss with a page number that doesn't exist (where you could have simply stated, read the first paragraph in preface.. what is your excuse for missing what is right on the cover?

all the best of course!
Reply

Zafran
08-07-2009, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rk9414
he doesnt care about all this -
Reply

Hugo
08-07-2009, 09:48 PM
I will try again to introduce some thoughts on the book: Al-Azamiv, M. M., (2003), The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, ISBN 1-872531-65-2

I will begin with some points from the preface. Although he does not state it with any clarity one supposes that Dr Azami theorises about the authenticity of the Qu'ran and then in this book sets out to prove that theory. However, his method looks a little odd in that he, as far as I can see sets out to show that Qu'ran as authentic and at the same time that the Bible is not and that is not a coherent strategy.

One has to ask what purpose it has to do this? It is obvious that whether the Bible is authentic or not has no bearing on whether the Qu'ran is? For example, one could show from manuscript evidence that Moby Dick was indeed written by Herman Melville but that would have no bearing whatever as to whether Tom Sawyer was written by Mark Twain. So what is Dr Azami's purpose?

One might compare transmission of the Bible and Qu'ran and that might give confidence in one or the other but not of itself proof. However, this will only work if one accepts that:

1. the transmission in both cases is sufficiently similar and this might be true except that the manuscript evidence for the Bible is huge by comparison to that for the Qu'ran

2. that Dr Azami has the required knowledge and whilst his Islamic knowledge is I assume of the best his Biblical knowledge is not. As far as I can tell he has no qualifications in Greek or Hebrew or in assessing Biblical Manuscripts or philology.

3. that Dr Azami starts out in an unbiased manner. It is understood that none of us is without bias but what I mean here is that in such an undertaking; if it is to be scholarly you must be well aware of your own bias and as best you can set it to one side. That is one tries as best one can to forget you are Christian or Muslim otherwise its all to easy to start seeing the data as you would like it to be not as it actually is.

My view is based on the preface (I will deal with other chapters later) is that Dr Azami falls short in terms of scholarship and objectivity. I will give just one example. Bottom of Page xvii Dr Azami says "The only known facts are that the OT books appeared on the scene only to disappear promptly for a few hundred years, before abruptly resurfacing. Again they disappeared without trace for many centuries, and were once again suddenly recovered."

Ignoring the impossibility of these being the 'only' known facts and the oddness of the second sentence, Dr Azami at this point gives a ref to 2 Kings 14-16. This is not a clear way to give a Biblical ref but let us assume he meant chapters 14 to 16 (which he refers to later in the book).

One supposes that these chapters would confirm his 'known facts', why else would he give them? The chapters lists the names together with a tiny biography of Kings for the two Jewish kingdoms: Israel and Judah spanning about 200 years. In this list of kings There is one ref to the Torah in 2 Kings 14:6 and a very oblique one in verse 14 to the temple being robbed (where a copy was kept) and several refs to the Book of The Chronicles of the Kings.

Hardly conclusive is it and one has to guess that Dr Azami's argument is that the Torah was mentioned by an early King, there was only one copy in the temple, it was stolen and it is not mentioned again in the list of kings so it disappeared for about 200 years. If you find that convincing then you will believe anything.

Secondly, the OT has 24 books in the Hebrew Bible but it can be divided in a slightly different way and we arrive at the usual number of 39 books. So Dr Azami is saying here that all 39 books disappeared and then miraculously all 39 reappeared and this happened twice. Next the temple chamber only contained the Torah, 5 books not 39 and finally these 39 books were not written all at the same time but span about 600 years.

It is therefore abundantly clear that Dr Azami is letting his feelings about the Bible destroy his objectivity and his writing at least in this section is far from the scholarly tradition of exactitude and lucidity and indeed looks like total ignorance.

I might end by saying that I am not considering or questioning here the authenticity of the Qu'ran or Bible. But what I am doing is questioning DR Azami even handed research abilities.
Reply

جوري
08-08-2009, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I will try again to introduce some thoughts on the book: Al-Azamiv, M. M., (2003), The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, ISBN 1-872531-65-2

I will begin with some points from the preface. Although he does not state it with any clarity one supposes that Dr Azami theorises about the authenticity of the Qu'ran and then in this book sets out to prove that theory. However, his method looks a little odd in that he, as far as I can see sets out to show that Qu'ran as authentic and at the same time that the Bible is not and that is not a coherent strategy.
In the preface Dr. Al.Azami writes:

The idea of authoring a book about the preservation of the Quran, about its collection and immaculate preservation, had long germinated my mind and approximately three and a half years ago I finally began working on this book along side another entitled Islamic studies: What methodology? It was journalist Toby Lester's article in the Atlantic Monthly (jan 1999) however and the chaos it had the potential to sow amongst Muslims, which prompted a greater concentration on this work. His article suggested that Muslims, despite believing the Quran as the unadulterated Book of Allah, were thoroughly incapable of defending their views in a scholarly fashion.. The gauntlet was thrown and I felt it necessary to take on this challenge and explain the stringent methodology used by early Muslim scholars in accepting a text as genuine or rejecting it as fake. This has lead to the unavoidable repetition of some material in both books. As most of the scholars that lester quotes are either jews or Christians. I also considered it fitting to cover the histories of the old and New testament by way of comparison.

I am not certain what is 'odd' about his method at all perhaps you'd like to expound on that perplexing testimony?
The book from the cover states ' a History of Qur'anic text' from revelation to compilation, a comparative study with the old and New testament!
How many titles can one fit on one cover? The book does exactly what it says. It isn't a book about the contents of the bible or the Torah or the Qur'an, certainly there are many references to those, but it isn't the books focus...
If you went out to purchase a book on molecular biology but ended up with a book on genetics, is the author of the book to be faulted or you for failure to distinguish subject matters?

One has to ask what purpose it has to do this? It is obvious that whether the Bible is authentic or not has no bearing on whether the Qu'ran is? For example, one could show from manuscript evidence that Moby Dick was indeed written by Herman Melville but that would have no bearing whatever as to whether Tom Sawyer was written by Mark Twain. So what is Dr Azami's purpose?
The book never alleged that its veracity rests on the falsity of the bible, I challenge you to show me such a conclusion in the book... this is one of numerous times you introduce this to the topic, it is very faulty (see above paragraph) the book deals with exactly what it states on the cover the compilation of the Quran compared to the compilation of previous testaments. Which is in fact what he was challenged to do and he so wrote in his preface!
This is but mere contrast in which the previous scriptures fail miserably!

One might compare transmission of the Bible and Qu'ran and that might give confidence in one or the other but not of itself proof. However, this will only work if one accepts that:
Proof of what exactly? the book deals with the painstaking task of preservation and compilation of both texts, not the contents of each. Nonetheless, the contents of both texts should stand on their own accord. and certainly the veracity therein, depends on how adulterated and abridged the content.. You have focused this thread on different 'scholars' alleging different reading, the use of dots deranging the readings, the different calligraphy or dialects affecting the Quran, yet failed to provide us with the different readings and how it could have manged to be deranged in such a short period of time or where such variations exist..Now, you'd rather abandon that to pursue a different topic all together or introduce a subject that isn't the focus of the book as right from the cover the book manifests what it is set out to do?
1. the transmission in both cases is sufficiently similar and this might be true except that the manuscript evidence for the Bible is huge by comparison to that for the Qu'ran
Allow me first to comment on size, not that it has bearing here (considering) that the Jews don't consider there to be an NT to their OT as you desire for us to believe, and well your christian forefathers saw fit to abrogate most of God's commandments from the old testament that it is a wonder at all that you should include them together.. nonetheless you have 260 chapters in the bible totaling 7958 verse
http://www.deafmissions.com/tally/bkchptrvrs.html

whereas the Quran has nearly 6679 verses and 114 chapters...
now because of the richness of the Arabic language, a verse such as in sure an'nazi3at: chapter 79
وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1


we see that two words translate here to 8 in
[ ASAD] CONSIDER those [stars] that rise only to set,1
or 13
[Yusufali 79:1] By the (angels) who tear out (the souls of the wicked) with violence;
or 7 in pickthal
[Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction

none of them able to quite capture the meaning in Arabic, yet the Arabic remains unadulterated and the Quran ever transcendent-- if we are going by sheer volume and not content then the translation of the Qur'an would prove quite expansive..

.. Now, Imagine you then the actual words of Jesus, of whom no one actually knew in which language he communicated Since jesus spoke with a Galilean dialect of Chaldaic (J.J.Scaliger); Syriac (claude Saumaise); the dialect of Onkelos and Johnathan (Brian Walton); Greek (vossius); Hebrew (Delitzsch and Resch); Aramiac (Meyer), and even Latin. (Inchofer, for ''the Lord Cannot have used any other language upon earth, since this is the language of the saints in heaven'')
Schweitzer, PP 271, 275

but, we are not even disputing the spoken language here even we are at a loss as to authors. and what are we asked here? to take this book (the bible) in lieu of the Quran as a book of guidance with all its very questionable history and even more questionable content which no christian can quite articulate without lacking orderly continuity and logical relations (as per concept of trinity) which is extrmely counter intuitive and contrary to all that was presented by all the previous messangers!

Now with all that, I personally wouldn't make the bible and the Quran at all a subject of comparison. Since the Quran is the word of God, while the bible is random works of unknown scribes, altered and beaten and interpreted a thousand times over.. if anything at all, we may compare the bible to the hadith and yet even the hadith has proper Isnad and methodology that one can't find to hold true at all for the bible (the Isnad in Hadith is dealt with in Dr. Al-Azami's book pages 172-7)
To compare in such a case would rather be in the profound impact it had on its adherents. When Muslims followed their book of guidance, they lived in the age of enlightenment when they forgo for secularism (well current state speaks volume) let's compare that with the book of Guidance in Christianity when followed by its adherents, we had the darkest period of history known as the dark ages, and it wasn't until Christianity was abandoned for secularism that the west began the turn around. but that is a digression which I felt should be included as to veracity.. for certainly Allah swt so tells us:

2 :249 ------ How many a little company hath overcome a mighty host by Allah's leave! Allah is with the steadfast.

Let's focus our attention to one area out of many where there is a great variance enough to sow seeds of doubt to the most devout christian.
on the transmission alone of the new testament Al-Azami writes"
Not a single book from the NT has survived in the original author's handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18 (footnote) Here I must interject that this date is pure guesswork, a subjective enterprise that can occasionally run with a marginal difference of decades to centuries. Among the earliest Greek manuscript of the N.T to actually bear a date is one written in the year of the world 6457 (i.e 949. C.E) Vatican library No. 345. Notice that the the manuscript does not contain any christian date, because the Anno Domini 'year of the Lord' calendar system had yet to be invented. See also this work pp 238-39, where Leningrad Codex mentions a slew of dates, none of them christian. This reveals that until the 11th C C.E (if not beyond) no christian calendar system existed or at least was not in use]

Copies of the various books from the NT were made extensively throughout the first several centuries, generally by non-professionals who rarely checked for errors afterward. There was little incentive to check them anyway: almost all christians during the first century expected the impending return of christ, and likely never realized that they were preserving a text for the distant future (footnote ibid p.6) after a while in circulation the texts no longer bore resemblance to the works which had been originally authored, so that any scribe duplicating a parchment with great fidelity was not necessarily creating an accurate reproduction of the original 29
additionally ''the early christians didn't necessarily treat the NT text as sacred text''21

then goes on to describe different reading, the Alexandarian text, the western text with its numerous interpolations, the caesarean text a compromise between the previous two, the Byzantium text then Dates of Recension.

Please under what light exactly is Quranic text to be compared to the alterations, modifications of the NT?

2. that Dr Azami has the required knowledge and whilst his Islamic knowledge is I assume of the best his Biblical knowledge is not. As far as I can tell he has no qualifications in Greek or Hebrew or in assessing Biblical Manuscripts or philology.
For starters I question your own knowledge of Greek or Hebrew? for in order for your critique with scholarly adpetness and not come across superficially read you must sustain your statements by showing contradiction of what he wrote to other existing truth.. Dr. Al-Azami's knowledge is best evaluated by the quality of his work, not a deranged personal opinion, the fact that unlike western orientalists who suffice it to say have no knowledge of Arabic, let alone the Quran or Islamic history feel free to disseminate completely erroneous information as facts and have it peddled and believed is not at all the case of Dr. Al-Azami, who used original photographs used with permission and quotes directly western scholars and adds his own comments to such scholars in the footnotes, should be the actual testament on how acquired he is in other texts!
3. that Dr Azami starts out in an unbiased manner. It is understood that none of us is without bias but what I mean here is that in such an undertaking; if it is to be scholarly you must be well aware of your own bias and as best you can set it to one side. That is one tries as best one can to forget you are Christian or Muslim otherwise its all to easy to start seeing the data as you would like it to be not as it actually is.
An approach that you indeed need to adopt in your approach before preaching and expecting it of others-- as it stands now your own biases aren't only blinding you to ancillary topics but you can't sustain your own point of view in comparison to what he has written!
My view is based on the preface (I will deal with other chapters later) is that Dr Azami falls short in terms of scholarship and objectivity. I will give just one example. Bottom of Page xvii Dr Azami says "The only known facts are that the OT books appeared on the scene only to disappear promptly for a few hundred years, before abruptly resurfacing. Again they disappeared without trace for many centuries, and were once again suddenly recovered."
Which part of that isn't factual when he in fact doesn't write it out of personal fancy but recorded history!
pls see below for a table of properly referenced missing texts from the OT!

Ignoring the impossibility of these being the 'only' known facts and the oddness of the second sentence, Dr Azami at this point gives a ref to 2 Kings 14-16. This is not a clear way to give a Biblical ref but let us assume he meant chapters 14 to 16 (which he refers to later in the book).

One supposes that these chapters would confirm his 'known facts', why else would he give them? The chapters lists the names together with a tiny biography of Kings for the two Jewish kingdoms: Israel and Judah spanning about 200 years. In this list of kings There is one ref to the Torah in 2 Kings 14:6 and a very oblique one in verse 14 to the temple being robbed (where a copy was kept) and several refs to the Book of The Chronicles of the Kings.
I am at a loss at to why this is a difficult point -- you may actually use google the search feature and you'll get youtube vids by Jews speaking of the law of Moses being lost-- is it a matter of reference of vexation of bringing such a known point to the light?

The logical thing you can do in said case if you believe otherwise is provide evidence to the contrary? Dr. Al-Azami in this book in fact into quite the details of the names of those who held early manuscripts of the Quran, the hafiths, and the transmitters and from whose original copies, who had what and who was killed for what and where it was dissminated, how about instead of criticizing where there are no real perceived flaws to the rest of us, you do exactly what he has done for the OT, show us the not so lost books where they were kept, who had copies, the names of those who held copies. If it is merely disbelief, then you should replace it with factual evidence, not mere expression of dismay!

Hardly conclusive is it and one has to guess that Dr Azami's argument is that the Torah was mentioned by an early King, there was only one copy in the temple, it was stolen and it is not mentioned again in the list of kings so it disappeared for about 200 years. If you find that convincing then you will believe anything.
see above reply, you have a very superficial understanding as obviously one needs to draw on a great fund of knowledge which you don't have or simply desire to be cryptic and not introduce other relevant information? .. the book expects that you come in with some basic knowledge of biblical stories and an understanding of availability of ink and paper millenniums ago.. (anyone for a date of the date of Gutenberg's printing press?) One needs a little abstract thought and a scientific approach to the subject, not merely concede to emotionality!

Secondly, the OT has 24 books in the Hebrew Bible but it can be divided in a slightly different way and we arrive at the usual number of 39 books. So Dr Azami is saying here that all 39 books disappeared and then miraculously all 39 reappeared and this happened twice. Next the temple chamber only contained the Torah, 5 books not 39 and finally these 39 books were not written all at the same time but span about 600 years.
Please reference me to exactly where he wrote miraculously ALL 39 books disappeared then re-appeared as well do me the kind pleasure of pointing where they were preserved meanwhile i.e the names of their preservers (it is only fair since he does go into that detail with the Islamic text) if we are to have integrity in the side by side comparison.. before re-discovery whether by prophet Uzair or some other method ... you'll forgive me of course, not only do you have a habit of insetting text and your desired conclusions, leading me to refuse to take what you write at face value, and I have consistently exposed you to the readers here!

nonetheless, please allow me to corroborate the writing of Dr. Al-Azami with one of many sources on the web:
Missing books of the OT:
1. The Book of the Wars of the Lord(Sepher Milkhamot Adonai)
“Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the LORD, “Waheb in Suphah, And the wadis of the Arnon,” (Numbers 21:14)
Timothy R. Ashley says:
“14-15 A citation from a source called the Book of Wars of Yahweh supports the claim made in v. 13. The exact nature of this work is “unknown”, since the only fragment of it is the poetry cited in vv. 14-15, unless the poem in vv. 17-18a is also from it. The title of the work suggests that it contained songs celebrating Yahweh’s victories against his enemies.” [1]
Matthew Henry says:
“we are not particularly told, but are referred to the book of the wars of the Lord, perhaps that book which was begun with the history of the war with the Amalekites, Ex. 17:14. Write it (said God) for a memorial in a book[2] (emphasis added)
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary says:
book of the wars of the Lord–A fragment or passage is here quoted from a poem or history of the wars of the Israelites, principally with a view to decide the position of Arnon.” [3]
John Gill’s Exposition on the Bible:
“Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the Lord,…. A history of wars in former times” [4]
The author of Izhar Al-Haq quotes the commentators Henry and Scott:
“Presumably this book was written by Moses for the guidance of Joshua and described the demacration of the land of Moab.” [5]
2.The Book of Jasher(Sepher Ha Yashar)
“So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.” (Joshua 10:13)
“and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the book of Jashar.”(2 Samuel 1:18)
Gnana Robinson comments on 2 Samuel 1:18,
” “It is written in the Book of Jashar,” literally “the Book of the Upright”. Another poetical piece attributed to the book of this name is Josh. 10:12-14.” Similar literary collections of various sorts seem to have been circulating among the people (e.g. the Book of the Wars of Yahweh, Num. 2:14); this shows that the collection of poems was made well before Samuel was edited and written.” [6]
Rev. Prof. Herbert G. May remarks,
“The Deuteronomist makes the poem the words of Joshua, but the poem itself is non-committal as to the speaker. The Book of Jasher is also quoted in 2 Sam. 1:18, and in the LXX of 1 Kg. 8:53. It was apparently a collection of poems. Compare the Book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14).” [7]
Concerning Joshua 10:13 Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary says:
“The passage, which is parenthetical, contains a poetical description of the victory which was miraculously gained by the help of God, and forms an extract from “the book of Jasher,” that is, “the upright”–an anthology, or collection of national songs, in honor of renowned and eminently pious heroes.” [8]
John Gill’s Exposition on 2nd Samuel 1:18:
“behold, it is written in book of Jasher); which the Targum calls the book of the law; and Jarchi and Ben Gersom restrain it to the book of Genesis, the book of the upright, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and suppose respect is had to the prophecy concerning Judah, Genesis 49:8, but Kimchi, extending it to all the five books of Moses, adds his blessing, in Deuteronomy 33:7. In the Arabic version it is explained of the book of Samuel, interpreted the book of songs, as if it was a collection of songs; which favours the above sense. Jerom {s} interprets it of the same book, the book of the righteous prophets, Samuel, Gad, and Nathan…” [9] (emphasis added)
Lost proverbs of Solomon
“He also spoke 3,000 proverbs, and his songs were 1,005.”(1 Kings 4:32)
John Gill’s Exposition:
And he spake three thousand proverbs,…. Wise sayings, short and pithy sentences, instructive in morality and civil life; these were not written as the book of Proverbs, but spoken only, and were taken from his lips, and spread by those that heard them for the use of others, but in process of time were lost…” [10] (emphasis added)
On the verse the Methodist theologian Adam Clarke explains:
“He spake three thousand proverbs] The book of Proverbs, attributed to Solomon, contain only about nine hundred or nine hundred and twenty-three distinct proverbs; and if we grant with some that the first nine chapters are not the work of Solomon, then all that can be attributed to him is only about six hundred and fifty.
Of all his one thousand and five songs or poems we have only one, the book of Canticles, remaining, unless we include Psalm cxxvii. 1-5, Except the Lord build the house, &c., which in the title is said to be by or for him, though it appears more properly to be a psalm of direction, left him by his father David, relative to the building of the temple. “
He laments in his notes on verse 33:
“O, how must the heart of Tournefort, Ray, Linne, Buffon, Cuvier, Swammerdam, Blosch, and other naturalists, be wrung, to know that these works of Solomon are all and for ever lost! What light should we have thrown on the animal and vegetable kingdoms, had these works been preserved![11] (emphasis added)

The Books of Samuel the Seer, the Prophet Nathan and Gad the Seer
“Now the acts of king David first and last are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer:” (1 Chronicles 29:29)
All of the books mentioned in the verse have all DISAPPEARED.
Adam Clarke says,
” The acts of David-first and last] Those which concerned him in private life, as well as those which grew out of his regal government. All these were written by three eminent men, personally acquainted with him through the principal part of his life; these were Samuel and Gad the seers, and Nathan the prophet. These writings are all lost, except the particulars interspersed in the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, none of which are the records mentioned here.” [12]
The Book of Isaiah the Prophet
This is yet another book which is totally LOST. It so happens that it was written by the major Old Testament prophet, Isaiah.
“Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first to last, the prophet Isaiah, the son of Amoz, has written.” (2 Chronicles 26:22)
Adam Clark says,
“The rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet-write.] This work, however, is totally lost; for we have not any history of this king in the writings of Isaiah. He is barely mentioned, Isa. i. 1; vi. 1. ” [13] (emphasis added)
John Gill says,
“Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last,…. What were done by him, both in the beginning and latter end of his reign:
did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write: not in his own prophecy, but in the history of his own times, which was usual for every prophet to write, though now lost, see 2 Kings 15:6.” [14] (emphasis added)
References:
[1] Timothy R. Ashley. The Book of Numbers. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 411
[2] www.ewordtoday.com/comments/numbers/mh/numbers21.htm / www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc1.iv.xxii.html
[3] www.ewordtoday.com/comments/numbers/jfb/numbers21.htm
[4] www.ewordtoday.com/comments/numbers/gill/numbers21.htm
[5] Izhar Al- Haq. p. 166
[6] Gnana Robinson. 1 & 2 Samuel, Internationl Theological Commentary(1993). William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company and The Handsel Press Limited. p. 157
[7] H. G. May. Peake’s Commentary on the Bible. Joshua(1962). Routledge. p. 297
[8] www.ewordtoday.com/comments/joshua/jfb/joshua10.htm
[9] www.ewordtoday.com/comments/2samuel/gill/2samuel1.htm
[10] www.ewordtoday.com/comments/1kings/gill/1kings4.htm
[11] www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke1kin4.htm
[12]http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke1chr29.htm
[13] www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke2chr26.htm
[14] www.ewordtoday.com/comments/2chronicles/gill/2chronicles26.htm
It is therefore abundantly clear that Dr Azami is letting his feelings about the Bible destroy his objectivity and his writing at least in this section is far from the scholarly tradition of exactitude and lucidity and indeed looks like total ignorance.

I might end by saying that I am not considering or questioning here the authenticity of the Qu'ran or Bible. But what I am doing is questioning DR Azami even handed research abilities.
In conclusions I'd say that your ending statement is a clear penetrative perception of your own psyche, feelings and your own approach to this book. You can barely get past the preface i.e a short introduction without creating a problem where none in fact exists! I am utterly baffled at your ability to generate so much bull out of short premise!

nonetheless, the reason I have taken the time to reply is to hopefully spark interests of others in spite of your incessant attempts I certainly hope those with a discerning eye and reflective mind from the few snippets I presented in an overt and inconspicuous style see just how well researched and presented this book and go purchase their own copies.

I know that it is not easy when a book challenges the very fulcrum of your beliefs and the same of which you were trusting as errors in others to be quite substantial and apparent in your own and thus in lieu of being perceptive would rather resort to red herrings as above or circumstantial ad hom about his scholarship but the majority in this case will hopefully appreciate that the sense of wonder is the basis for all knowledge


Let's close on a verse from the Noble Quran:

5:8 0 YOU who have attained to faith! Be ever stead fast in your devotion to God, bearing witness to the truth in all equity; and never let hatred of anyone19 lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Be just: this is closest to being God-conscious. And remain conscious of God: verily, God is aware of all that you do.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-08-2009, 05:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

I have looked at Dr Al-Azmai's book and it is well produced and referenced and his Islamic and other qualifications are impeccable. According to Dr Azami the book is 1/3 about the Bible and 2/3 about the Qu'ran (page xv first para) so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.

Bottom few lines of Page xvi and top few lines of page xvii where either his bias causes him to loses his objectivity or he is simply a bit careless but either way he is very selective (tendentious?) in his words.

hmmm. as THIS thread is about the Authenticity of the Qur'an, lets see if YOU can be objective

He quotes Bruce Metzger (
.. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...

just a random comment here, it MAY be that the author is implying that the BEST available texts that WESTERN Europeans were using for "FRESH" translations, along with the Vulgate come from about the 10th Century. older ones DO exists, but no one had access to them. therefore most English translations are STILL based on those texts, iirc

This is one of the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel; a colophon states that is was written by a monk named Michael .....

One has to wonder why in his text Azami leaves out the critical word "one" and neither does he tell us that a colophon was involved. Frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT texts are 10th century or later and one wonders what he understood by the words "were written" and is he trying to imply that the monk wrote the Gospels whereas the colophon inclusion makes it clear that what is meant here by written is copied?
if everyone agrees that Dr Al-Azmai's book and it is well produced and referenced and his Islamic and other qualifications are impeccable, why don't we use them in discussing "the authenticity of the Qur'an?"

if anyone wants to delve into Textual Criticism of the Bible, i'd be happy to discuss this with what time restraints i have IN THE PROPER THREAD, In Sha'a Allah. i'm no expert, but i might be able to give some opinions of scholars on a few matters.

:wa:
Reply

جوري
08-08-2009, 06:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
just a random comment here, it MAY be that the author is implying that the BEST available texts that WESTERN Europeans were using for "FRESH" translations, along with the Vulgate come from about the 10th Century. older ones DO exists, but no one had access to them. therefore most English translations are STILL based on those texts, iirc

:wa:

I should forewarn you that the fellow Hugo makes up contents to the book as he desires.. in fact this is excerpted directly from the book:

Not a single book from the NT has survived in the original author's handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18 (footnote) Here I must interject that this date is pure guesswork, a subjective enterprise that can occasionally run with a marginal difference of decades to centuries. Among the earliest Greek manuscript of the N.T to actually bear a date is one written in the year of the world 6457 (i.e 949. C.E) Vatican library No. 345. Notice that the the manuscript does not contain any christian date, because the Anno Domini 'year of the Lord' calendar system had yet to be invented. See also this work pp 238-39, where Leningrad Codex mentions a slew of dates, none of them christian. This reveals that until the 11th C C.E (if not beyond) no christian calendar system existed or at least was not in use]


he is just selectively, adding and parsing ad lib using adjectives, adverbs and pronouns to create the desired effect, which is obviously to discredit the author, for when you discredit the author, why should you bother reading the book.

He pursues vacuous attempts to paint the Quran and the bible in the same light in terms of transmission, or will come up with something like the author is pursuing this because the Quran's integrity rests on the falsity of the bible, and if that doesn't stand a chance then he'll figure something like volume or mass of empty contents, and when that doesn't work he'll figure out some other inane route to go on and turn the thread into 57 pages where he will discuss everything from roman numberals to the effects of orange juice on penmanship.. but nothing of substance!

It is all about a descent to word play and how he can use them to create a desired end, not an actual interest in textual integrity and content and side by side comparison.. really makes it belaboring to even attempt a response!

:w:
Reply

Hugo
08-08-2009, 10:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
if everyone agrees that Dr Al-Azmai's book and it is well produced and referenced and his Islamic and other qualifications are impeccable, why don't we use them in discussing "the authenticity of the Qur'an?"

by Hugo - I have looked at Dr Al-Azmai's book and it is well produced and referenced and his Islamic and other qualifications are impeccable. According to Dr Azami the book is 1/3 about the Bible and 2/3 about the Qu'ran (page xv first para) so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.

Bottom few lines of Page xvi and top few lines of page xvii where either his bias causes him to loses his objectivity or he is simply a bit careless but either way he is very selective (tendentious?) in his words.
hmmm. as THIS thread is about the Authenticity of the Qur'an, lets see if YOU can be objective

Comment by Hugo - yes a very good idea but you seem to be totally missing the point. It is a long book and at this stage I am being totally objective by asking is Dr Azami's book likely to be value in that he shows himself to be scholarly in all he does. This is a perfectly logical position to take because unless it is true the book is not to be trusted. My view is that he does not show these qualities.

By Hugo - He quotes Bruce Metzger .. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...
just a random comment here, it MAY be that the author is implying that the BEST available texts that WESTERN Europeans were using for "FRESH" translations, along with the Vulgate come from about the 10th Century. older ones DO exists, but no one had access to them. therefore most English translations are STILL based on those texts, iirc

Comment Hugo - Metzger's book lists 100s of NT manuscripts. It is logical nonsense to say "older ones DO exists, but no one had access to them".
if anyone wants to delve into Textual Criticism of the Bible, i'd be happy to discuss this with what time restraints i have IN THE PROPER THREAD, In Sha'a Allah. i'm no expert, but i might be able to give some opinions of scholars on a few matters. :wa:
Perhaps you would give the full ref to your thread so it can be followed.
Reply

Hugo
08-08-2009, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I should forewarn you that the fellow Hugo makes up contents to the book as he desires.. in fact this is excerpted directly from the book:

Not a single book from the NT has survived in the original author's handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18 (footnote) Here I must interject that this date is pure guesswork, a subjective enterprise that can occasionally run with a marginal difference of decades to centuries. Among the earliest Greek manuscript of the N.T to actually bear a date is one written in the year of the world 6457 (i.e 949. C.E) Vatican library No. 345. Notice that the the manuscript does not contain any christian date, because the Anno Domini 'year of the Lord' calendar system had yet to be invented. See also this work pp 238-39, where Leningrad Codex mentions a slew of dates, none of them christian. This reveals that until the 11th C C.E (if not beyond) no christian calendar system existed or at least was not in use]

he is just selectively, adding and parsing ad lib using adjectives, adverbs and pronouns to create the desired effect, which is obviously to discredit the author, for when you discredit the author, why should you bother reading the book.

He pursues vacuous attempts to paint the Quran and the bible in the same light in terms of transmission, or will come up with something like the author is pursuing this because the Quran's integrity rests on the falsity of the bible, and if that doesn't stand a chance then he'll figure something like volume or mass of empty contents, and when that doesn't work he'll figure out some other inane route to go on and turn the thread into 57 pages where he will discuss everything from roman numberals to the effects of orange juice on penmanship.. but nothing of substance!

It is all about a descent to word play and how he can use them to create a desired end, not an actual interest in textual integrity and content and side by side comparison.. really makes it belaboring to even attempt a response!
1. It is a simple lie that I invent and if there is any invention it is down to you. If you cannot enter the discussion without invective, innuendo and false accusations then I suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself.

I have high regard for both the Qu'ran and the Bible and any book that claims to speak with authority on them must be rigorously tested else it can and will do more harm that good. In fact if you had read Azami's book with any care you will see that he was prompted to write it because he found fault with another publication. I have been as exact as I can be but you even here cannot give a proper references to the quotation you made from Azami's book.

2. You say I am trying to discredit the author - is that not allowed, is Dr Azami automatically someone who cannot be tried and tested, must we just accept his words, all of them without comment or criticisms? If Azami is to be discredited its not my words that do it but his own.
Reply

Hugo
08-08-2009, 11:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

My view is based on the preface (I will deal with other chapters later) is that Dr Azami falls short in terms of scholarship and objectivity. I will give just one example. Bottom of Page xvii Dr Azami says "The only known facts are that the OT books appeared on the scene only to disappear promptly for a few hundred years, before abruptly resurfacing. Again they disappeared without trace for many centuries, and were once again suddenly recovered."

Ignoring the impossibility of these being the 'only' known facts and the oddness of the second sentence, Dr Azami at this point gives a ref to 2 Kings 14-16. This is not a clear way to give a Biblical ref but let us assume he meant chapters 14 to 16 (which he refers to later in the book).

One supposes that these chapters would confirm his 'known facts', why else would he give them? The chapters lists the names together with a tiny biography of Kings for the two Jewish kingdoms: Israel and Judah spanning about 200 years. In this list of kings There is one ref to the Torah in 2 Kings 14:6 and a very oblique one in verse 14 to the temple being robbed (where a copy was kept) and several refs to the Book of The Chronicles of the Kings.

Hardly conclusive is it and one has to guess that Dr Azami's argument is that the Torah was mentioned by an early King, there was only one copy in the temple, it was stolen and it is not mentioned again in the list of kings so it disappeared for about 200 years. If you find that convincing then you will believe anything.
1. It is best not to substitute volume for arguments. My post was about Dr Azami and his scholarly approach or otherwise as seen in his writing. In the above he did not refer to Google or Uzzia or Gutenberg etc and I am not criticizing the Qu'ran or bible. I am simply asking you here:

2. Where in the references he give to 2 Kings do we find his 'known facts'?

3. He mentions 'OT books', does he mean all of the books, does he mean the Torah or Psalms - what is he saying and does his reference provide any useful evidence? It is his job to make it clear and he is not doing that is he. Everyone agrees there are or were other OT books because of references to them in several extant books. My point was that we have now 39 and those 39 go back a long time and what I am asking here what is Azami talking about when he says "OT books"?

If this author cannot write with clarity then his work is suspect and wide open to all sorts of interpretation.
Reply

Hugo
08-08-2009, 11:48 AM
In Dr Azami's book on page xxi 3rd para he states

..the people behind the Madina Mushaf for printing the most accurate Qu'ranic text in the world.

So if words mean anything one supposes that there are Qu'ran's, perhaps millions of Qu'rans that are not accurate and one further supposes that it might later be possible to print an even more accurate one?

Incidentally, how does Dr Azami know it is the most accurate text in the world, has he access to some single original as well as all these supposedly inaccurate ones?
Reply

YusufNoor
08-08-2009, 12:51 PM
Comment by Hugo - yes a very good idea but you seem to be totally missing the point. It is a long book and at this stage I am being totally objective by asking is Dr Azami's book likely to be value in that he shows himself to be scholarly in all he does. This is a perfectly logical position to take because unless it is true the book is not to be trusted. My view is that he does not show these qualities.
if a mistake or 2, and i'm not saying that there ARE any [as i haven't read the book. if i WAS to read the book, i would focus on what the Brother has to say on the Qur'an. i have work by scholars on the Bible, and would use those for that], is enough to dismiss any author on any subject, then you would cease and desist using "orientalist" garb around here[WHY? the are not Muslims, therefore they are in error, and therefore NOTHING they say can be trusted.] one should realize that it would be difficult for any Muslim to be 100% objective is discussing the plague of variations in the NT, when that Muslims starting point was, in fact, that the scriptures are indeed corrupt. there are very few Muslim brothers whose work in that area i would pay heed.

Comment Hugo - Metzger's book lists 100s of NT manuscripts. It is logical nonsense to say "older ones DO exists, but no one had access to them".
i used the past tense "had access." 1000 years ago manuscripts were still done by hand, it was assumed that the most "modern" were the most correct. some would also say that until Constantine's conversion to Christianity, there were no professional scribes,ie, monks or people assigned by clergy to do the work. the result being that once pros were employed, the rate and variety of mistakes diminished. no one wanted these "older amateurish" manuscripts as it was assumed that the latest were the most scholarly. it's not like a monk in Ireland could ask another monk in Bremen to fax him a copy of a manuscript.

it wasn't until the advent of the printing press [with some exceptions], along with the general revulsion[if that's a word] of the Catholic Church that believers trying to determine what their faith should be [weed out all the crap that Catholicism allowed in], and were determined to return to a religion based SOLELY on Scripture that Textual Criticism came into being on a wide scale. it simply dodn't matter before that. generally speaking, the churches in the west used Jerome's Vulgate.

Perhaps you would give the full ref to your thread so it can be followed.
Bible authenticity and transmission,fully detailed argument is the title, i bumped it last night.

it is NOT however "MY THREAD." i simply offered to discuss the matter if folks were interested. as this thread appears to be Skye defending Dr Azami's view of the authenticity of "the Bible," rather than the authenticity of the Qur'an, THAT thread can be used for discussions about "the Bible." it's NOT a very active thread, i'm NOT an expert on the subject, but i have [because i enjoy history] recently added items to my library that discuss the matter, and so i would be willing to [time permitting and pre-Ramadhan] offer what some experts have to say.

i list a few references from that thread here:

i actually dabble "in the study of" the study of historical criticism and textual criticism. i doubt a post or two could explain it to anyone.

let me paraphrase Bart Ehrman, of the 5,700 Greek manuscripts that we now have, NO TWO are alike! HOWEVER [according to Ehrman] the VAST MAJORITY of the differences [and there are more differences than there are words in the NT!] are spelling errors and word placement in the Greek, which according to Ehrman CANNOT be replicated in English. there ARE differences that affect what a text might mean, but it would be better to stick to what is generally believed by those that do study the field.

now, Professor Luke Timothy Johnson is also highly aware of textual and historical criticism. UNLIKE Ehrman, Professor Johnson's faith is not diminished by this, at least he says as much. the belief is that [and i'm paraphrasing] we still understand the [original] Message in spite of all of the complications. Ehrman would retort that it is impossible to to know what the original message was if you don't know what the original words were!

surprisingly, [and i haven't read Jesus Interrupted yet, but i am reading Misquoting Jesus and iv'e either watched or listened to all but one of Ehrmans lecture sets from the Teaching Company (found here http://www.teach12.com/storex/professor.aspx?ID=150 )] i prefer the approach of Professor Johnson WHEN EXPLAINING just what textual criticism is. (his set is here http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDe....aspx?cid=6252 ) so let me ask:

just what is textual criticism and how did it come about and why should a Christian OR ANYONE care?
i am also half way through a series of lectures on Byzantium and one byproduct is that the "evolution of Christianity" is one of it's central issues.

quoting a Christian minister in another thread:

I too am well aware of the process by which the Bible that is in use today evolved over time. I don't have all of the answers to when this or that book was accepted or rejected memorized and don't always have the time to research answers to questions that I don't see as relevant to what I was asking, especially when they are as easily known to you as they are to me.
so, IF you would like to discuss this in an honest and historical manner, i would try to participate. that way this thread can be used for it's original purpose.

:wa:
Reply

Hugo
08-08-2009, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
if a mistake or 2, and i'm not saying that there ARE any [as i haven't read the book. if i WAS to read the book, i would focus on what the Brother has to say on the Qur'an. i have work by scholars on the Bible, and would use those for that], is enough to dismiss any author on any subject, then you would cease and desist using "orientalist" garb around here[WHY? the are not Muslims, therefore they are in error, and therefore NOTHING they say can be trusted.] one should realize that it would be difficult for any Muslim to be 100% objective is discussing the plague of variations in the NT, when that Muslims starting point was, in fact, that the scriptures are indeed corrupt. there are very few Muslim brothers whose work in that area i would pay heed.

Hugo - I think I follows what you say but you sound biased to me when you say "Orientalist garb" and I might be wrong but may I ask, are you happy to accept Dr Azami's work because it supports the Islamic view and he is well qualified but not say Professor Bernard Lewis who is equally well qualified but critical of some Islamic positions?

i used the past tense "had access." 1000 years ago manuscripts were still done by hand, it was assumed that the most "modern" were the most correct. some would also say that until Constantine's conversion to Christianity, there were no professional scribes,ie, monks or people assigned by clergy to do the work. the result being that once pros were employed, the rate and variety of mistakes diminished. no one wanted these "older amateurish" manuscripts as it was assumed that the latest were the most scholarly. it's not like a monk in Ireland could ask another monk in Bremen to fax him a copy of a manuscript.

Hugo - yes at the time doing it by hand was the only way a copy could be made and of course it goes back perhaps 3,000 years and copying was done long before Constantine was even born. Incidentally, Dr Azami suggest there are 250,000 copies of or bits of Qu'ranic manuscripts and says there are many errors and the issue is the same - copying by hand. (see page 151) I hope to come back to what is said on page 151 later.

The point is one supposes that if you have many copies one can get back to the original and this applies to the Qu'ran and the Bible.

it wasn't until the advent of the printing press [with some exceptions], along with the general revulsion[if that's a word] of the Catholic Church that believers trying to determine what their faith should be [weed out all the crap that Catholicism allowed in], and were determined to return to a religion based SOLELY on Scripture that Textual Criticism came into being on a wide scale. it simply dodn't matter before that. generally speaking, the churches in the west used Jerome's Vulgate.

Hugo - this overstates the case and most of the Greek NT manuscripts and all of OT the pre-date the Vulgate by many 100s of years. The Vulgate did not just turn up' it had to have a source.

it is NOT however "MY THREAD." i simply offered to discuss the matter if folks were interested. as this thread appears to be Skye defending Dr Azami's view of the authenticity of "the Bible," rather than the authenticity of the Qur'an, THAT thread can be used for discussions about "the Bible." it's NOT a very active thread, i'm NOT an expert on the subject, but i have [because i enjoy history] recently added items to my library that discuss the matter, and so i would be willing to [time permitting and pre-Ramadhan] offer what some experts have to say.
I note what you Christian minister said and of course every religion evolves. Islam did not arrive complete on day 1 did it and many centuries were need before it was all worked out. Some now think its a pity that evolution is now longer a feature of Islam.
Reply

alcurad
08-08-2009, 04:27 PM
^ i can understand where you're coming from hugo, but this "Some now think its a pity that evolution is now longer a feature of Islam." I don't think you understand Islam much if you can actually say things like that, no offense, but really, do give us a bit more credit.

Christianity now has evolved beyond what it was supposed to be in the first place, or more accurately devolved seeing that it's now not very different than the pagan religions that it came to address. if that is hat evolution means, then it is good for us that we stopped evolving.

otherwise, IMHO the discussion is not really a discussion anymore, it also has devolved to little more than nitpicking beyond reason, and making nonsensical points. not that you only are to blame.

"..the people behind the Madina Mushaf for printing the most accurate Qu'ranic text in the world.

So if words mean anything one supposes that there are Qu'ran's, perhaps millions of Qu'rans that are not accurate and one further supposes that it might later be possible to print an even more accurate one?"

this is what i mean by nonsensical, it is well known that the Arabs at the time of the prophet were not very literate, hence when the qur'an was written, some of them made slight mistakes, these mistakes were later the reason for Uthman's order that they be burned and only the copy that the prophet had ordered written be used, not the individual copies some made for themselves, hence the references to most accurate and so on.
Reply

جوري
08-08-2009, 04:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
1. It is a simple lie that I invent and if there is any invention it is down to you. If you cannot enter the discussion without invective, innuendo and false accusations then I suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself.
I notice how when you are at a loss to defend your position against what I have written you resort to adhoms!

I have high regard for both the Qu'ran and the Bible and any book that claims to speak with authority on them must be rigorously tested else it can and will do more harm that good. In fact if you had read Azami's book with any care you will see that he was prompted to write it because he found fault with another publication. I have been as exact as I can be but you even here cannot give a proper references to the quotation you made from Azami's book
.

It is humorously anecdotal that you are still a christian then, given the meticulous care with which you allegedly like to scrutinize texts that speak with authority!
Nonetheless I have consistently quoted directly from the book.. It is not that difficult today, all you need is to cut down on the turgid lofty crap and replace it with something of substance. All you have managed to do is twist his words around, or leave out contents or take things out of contexts, you must realize that you come across as a complete Tartufe?!

2. You say I am trying to discredit the author - is that not allowed, is Dr Azami automatically someone who cannot be tried and tested, must we just accept his words, all of them without comment or criticisms? If Azami is to be discredited its not my words that do it but his own.
Yes, discrediting the author should be allowed indeed, but it can only be done when certain conditions are met.
1- You quote properly!
2- you provide historical evidence to the contrary!
3- & With all due respect of course, provide us with your own qualifications.. in other words, and let me use an example from above you declare 'he isn't learned in Greek or Hebrew' thus discounting anything he writes on the matter (though he himself references to western scholars on any topic regarding the previous testaments) yet by the same token you fail to do two things:
a- when quoting an orientalist you fail to subject them to that same objections in their case for obvious reasons (for they fail to use Muslim scholars to corroborate their points)
b- you fail to show your own accreditation as a scholar on the subject, and provide us with contrary evidence as to how or where he has erred!

Hopefully now with new found clarity you realize why it is that you have no credibility none whatsoever!..
There is more to critique then putting English words together! a crying shame that I labor with such a concise long reply and this is all you can come up with!

all the best
Reply

جوري
08-08-2009, 04:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
1. It is best not to substitute volume for arguments. My post was about Dr Azami and his scholarly approach or otherwise as seen in his writing. In the above he did not refer to Google or Uzzia or Gutenberg etc and I am not criticizing the Qu'ran or bible. I am simply asking you here:
we are not substituting, we have addressed each of your points head on in a proper concise manner, you should try it sometimes-- I noticed you didn't even want to touch my original reply and ran to the one I'd directed to br. Yusuf. (which was simply to clarify a sterile point you've made in your post which he replied to based entirely on your faulty interpretation of it . I obviously wanted to show him where the book speaks differently than what you allege) You disregarding my reply evinces that you have no interest in the scholarly approach to things, rather deflecting what you can't handle head on!
2. Where in the references he give to 2 Kings do we find his 'known facts'?
I have provided you with a long list of missing texts of the OT completely outside of Dr. Al-Azami's book in corroboration with his writing on the bottom fully referenced, which again is something you have refused to acknowledge or address!
3. He mentions 'OT books', does he mean all of the books, does he mean the Torah or Psalms - what is he saying and does his reference provide any useful evidence? It is his job to make it clear and he is not doing that is he. Everyone agrees there are or were other OT books because of references to them in several extant books. My point was that we have now 39 and those 39 go back a long time and what I am asking here what is Azami talking about when he says "OT books"?
Indeed the addition of 'All' is yours, you can always write the author and ask him to humor your little isolate hangups instead of speaking for him directly? especially that such a comment was made in a short preface, one isn't expected to write the entire contents of the book in his short introduction! nonetheless, I asked you a question and asking you again to exonerate the OT from such prevarications whether in part or in whole, I asked you to show me where the books were kept (if they weren't actually lost and with whom) and I thought it only fair since he does the same exact thing in reference to the Quran, and since you love splitting hairs, one can't conceive that you'd provide us with anything less than 100% integrity in your own research!
Go ahead prove him wrong.. Give me names and dates of who kept 'All' or 'Some' of the OT during the ages from its inception!

If this author cannot write with clarity then his work is suspect and wide open to all sorts of interpretation.
When you go sit for an exam and you read:

A previously healthy 37 yr old woman comes to the physician because of leg leg pain for 2 days. Medications include an OCP and Calcium supplementation. Examination of the distal left lower extremity shows a subcutaneous, palpable, hard, cord-like structure within a 6 X 1 cm, warm, erythematous area just proximal to the ankle. There are scattered varicose veins in the lower extremities. Which of the following is the most appropriate next step in management?

A. Application of warm compresses
B. Use of compression stockings
C. Oral diclox therapy
D. Oral prednisone therapy
E. Subcutaneous enoxaparin therapy


Do you then raise your hand and ask the proctor, excuse me, this question seems incomplete to me, the questioner is missing something about both her travel and smoking history, if she is having erythema then more details need to be included (a million things can cause it)
if you do then perhaps you've missed the point entirely. which I imagine as you so often do if that is how linear your thought processes!--

When any author writes to enlighten or question what you know, s/he expects you to come in with some baseline knowledge!
but as always, if you know otherwise then please show me with proper reference, although admittedly I am enjoying that you are actively exposing yourself to others--
one wonders why you don't scrutinize your orientalist Illuminati, though God knows it wouldn't be a mere splitting of hair but a blanket of nonsense to unveil, considering none of their bull could stand a chance with anyone having the most basic knowledge of islam!
Could it be that you are indeed a hypocrite? and try as you may to free yourself of bias, you are in fact a slave to it.
If you shifted gear a little you might conclude that your entire methodology and faith crumbles at the very fulcrum that it rests on!

all the best
Reply

جوري
08-08-2009, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
In Dr Azami's book on page xxi 3rd para he states

..the people behind the Madina Mushaf for printing the most accurate Qu'ranic text in the world.

So if words mean anything one supposes that there are Qu'ran's, perhaps millions of Qu'rans that are not accurate and one further supposes that it might later be possible to print an even more accurate one?

Incidentally, how does Dr Azami know it is the most accurate text in the world, has he access to some single original as well as all these supposedly inaccurate ones?

No, Only you are supposing that the others are false because oh it would be so delightful, the Medinah Mus'haf if you have bothered with a two second research you'd have come up with:

http://www.iqrashop.com/product_info...n&currency=GBP

and let me quote since the page won't allow for a cut and paste:


''However, authors and publishers have not been able to include the Qur'anic verses in documents and personal writings, except in normal fonts, which lack many of the aesthetic aspects that the Uthmanic calligraphy has. This has resulted in some instances of text distortions, confusion of reading or drops of certain items.''

To expound on that you'd have to know something about rules of reading the Quran, such as the use of idgham, iqlab, ith'har' in tajweed idgham and the rest each have a subset in 7iroof matmathleen, or 7iroof motqarbeen or 7iroof mot3abadeen etc e.x can only be given in Arabic as these are rules of grammar but for those Arabic speakers interested in further investigation:

نواع ادغام

ادغام از نظر مدغم و مدغم فیه، در روایت حفص از عاصم بر سه قسم است:

ادغام متامثلین

دو حرف مثل هم (متماثل) بلا استثناء در یکدیگر ادغام می شوند و کافی است که حرف اول ساکن باشد.
مثال

قُلْ لِمَنْ
لَهُمْ مُوسَی

اِضْرِبْ بِعَصَاکَ

رَبِحَتْ تِجَارَتُهُمْ

اَوْ وَزَنُوا

یدْرِکْکُم النساء 78

ادغام متجانسین

این ادغام فقط در موارد زیر انجام می شود:

  1. باء ساکن در میم مثل اِرْکَبْ مَعَنَا که در قرآن فقط همین مورد و در سوره هود علیه*السلام آمده است.
  2. (ت- د- ط) دو به دو با یکدیگر. مثل

اَحَطْتُ نمل آیه 22 ادغام ناقص
هَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ
قَدْتبَینَ

  1. (ث- ذ- ظ) دو به دو با یکدیگر. مثل

یلْهَثْ ذَلِکَ
اِذْ ظَلَمْتُمْ زخرف آیه 39
عَبَدْتَ
http://daneshnameh.roshd.ir/mavara/m...e=Check&Rand=0


this is a topic completely expansive and over your head, that I have no desire to discuss it here in any detail given your pedantry. But the parsing of letters dictates the speech and that certainly can be lost to people who don't understand the rules of grammar and thus tashkeel saves them the principal conditions behind it. They can read like the pro without being pros!




and yes of course the originals exist you can see them in the book or on line
.. one I have personally seen in Egypt.. you are simply not allowed to browse every page. You look at whatever is on display!

.

I have already gone extensively as well so did Dr. Al-Azami and actually is right on the cover of the book itself, that it doesn't matter the calligraphy, the dotting or the parsing. It is read in the exact same manner.. The recitations stylistically can differ as we have Quran Majwad, or moratal. as well we also have different styles of writing in Arabic:
riq3a, naskh, Thuluth, farsi, kufi and amazingly able to read them all just the same!
please allow me demonstrate:

la yazhal almr'r 3aliman ma talab al3ilm, fa'izha athann anaho qad 3alim faqd jahal (the above is a proverb is riq3a)

easy to read as is,

wa3ad Allah Alzheena amano wa'3amilo as'sali7at ...

this is the actual page by the way as you can see the calligrapher didn't leave meaning of the traditionally written text for me to decode it.
http://www.almajara.com/photos/detai...6b9d94d1491c2d

as well I can read this:

وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا يَغْشَى {1}
وَالنَّهَارِ إِذَا تَجَلَّى {2}
وَمَا خَلَقَ الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَى {3}
إِنَّ سَعْيَكُمْ لَشَتَّى {4}
Wa'lyel izha yagh'sha, wa'nahar izha tajala, wama khlaqa Alzhakara wa'lontha, inna sa3yokoum lashata



and this

la illah illah Allah, Mohammed rasool Allah

and the more common traditional naskh

min suret al'an3am al7mdllillah alzhi khalaq as'samwat w'alard, waja3ala athulmat wa'noor.




Now you tell me honesty If there were such a thing as an 'original bible' from the mouth of Jesus in such ancient text, or different shattered handwriting, would you be able to read it as I have just done with this level of confidence and fluidity?

examples of different recitations of the same surah mortal or mojwad you'll notice the 'tempo' of the first as such the entire surah is finished in 6 minutes and read differently than the second which at 8 minutes isn't half way through.. to the ignorant they can appear very different, but to the erudite they are but different styles:

Media Tags are no longer supported

___________________________

Media Tags are no longer supported


The Quran IS the unadulterated word of God and so it shall remain by his will!

all the best!
Reply

YusufNoor
08-08-2009, 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
if a mistake or 2, and i'm not saying that there ARE any [as i haven't read the book. if i WAS to read the book, i would focus on what the Brother has to say on the Qur'an. i have work by scholars on the Bible, and would use those for that], is enough to dismiss any author on any subject, then you would cease and desist using "orientalist" garb around here[WHY? the are not Muslims, therefore they are in error, and therefore NOTHING they say can be trusted.] one should realize that it would be difficult for any Muslim to be 100% objective is discussing the plague of variations in the NT, when that Muslims starting point was, in fact, that the scriptures are indeed corrupt. there are very few Muslim brothers whose work in that area i would pay heed.

Hugo - I think I follows what you say but you sound biased to me when you say "Orientalist garb" and I might be wrong but may I ask, are you happy to accept Dr Azami's work because it supports the Islamic view and he is well qualified but not say Professor Bernard Lewis who is equally well qualified but critical of some Islamic positions?

actually Sister Skye is having the discussion on the authenticity of the Qur'an, i was merely trying to follow the discussion. whatever she accepts is acceptable to me. i am referring to the authenticity of the Bible, which can be discussed in another thread.

i used the past tense "had access." 1000 years ago manuscripts were still done by hand, it was assumed that the most "modern" were the most correct. some would also say that until Constantine's conversion to Christianity, there were no professional scribes,ie, monks or people assigned by clergy to do the work. the result being that once pros were employed, the rate and variety of mistakes diminished. no one wanted these "older amateurish" manuscripts as it was assumed that the latest were the most scholarly. it's not like a monk in Ireland could ask another monk in Bremen to fax him a copy of a manuscript.

Hugo - yes at the time doing it by hand was the only way a copy could be made and of course it goes back perhaps 3,000 years and copying was done long before Constantine was even born. Incidentally, Dr Azami suggest there are 250,000 copies of or bits of Qu'ranic manuscripts and says there are many errors and the issue is the same - copying by hand. (see page 151) I hope to come back to what is said on page 151 later.

The point is one supposes that if you have many copies one can get back to the original and this applies to the Qu'ran and the Bible.

actually, with each and every NT you tend to get more variations. the difference between the bible and the Qur'an is that there were Hafz alive when the Prophet was alive[in fact all 4 of the rightly guided Khalifas were related by marriage to the Prophet]. there is no "break in the chain" between revelation and the "official" collection and in the "official collection" by Ziad ibn Thaabit, only Ayats written in the presence of the Prophet could be included. Thus, we have contemporaneous evidence. there is little evidence that ANY of the NT writers actually knew Jesus!

it wasn't until the advent of the printing press [with some exceptions], along with the general revulsion[if that's a word] of the Catholic Church that believers trying to determine what their faith should be [weed out all the crap that Catholicism allowed in], and were determined to return to a religion based SOLELY on Scripture that Textual Criticism came into being on a wide scale. it simply dodn't matter before that. generally speaking, the churches in the west used Jerome's Vulgate.

Hugo - this overstates the case and most of the Greek NT manuscripts and all of OT the pre-date the Vulgate by many 100s of years. The Vulgate did not just turn up' it had to have a source.

for OT, just read Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible. i would think that the Torah should be separate from the NT when discussing the "authenticity" of "the Bible." btw, name 5 complete manuscripts that predate Jerome's Vulgate.

it is NOT however "MY THREAD." i simply offered to discuss the matter if folks were interested. as this thread appears to be Skye defending Dr Azami's view of the authenticity of "the Bible," rather than the authenticity of the Qur'an, THAT thread can be used for discussions about "the Bible." it's NOT a very active thread, i'm NOT an expert on the subject, but i have [because i enjoy history] recently added items to my library that discuss the matter, and so i would be willing to [time permitting and pre-Ramadhan] offer what some experts have to say.
I note what you Christian minister said and of course every religion evolves. Islam did not arrive complete on day 1 did it and many centuries were need before it was all worked out. Some now think its a pity that evolution is now longer a feature of Islam.

reread the comment, it says;

the process by which the Bible that is in use today evolved over time
that says Bible, but yes, you are quite right that Christianity took hundreds of years to develop into it's "orthodox" form. Islam on the other hand was completed during the life of the Prophet. the Qur'an and Sunnah as understood by the 1st 3 generations of Islam IS Islam, not the whirling dervishes or even the shii'a.
i have 100% faith in Sister Skye being able to discuss the authenticity of the Qur'an.

as i have said, i am willing, if Allah gives me life and time, to discuss the authenticity of the Bible in the other thread.

:wa:
Reply

Clover
08-08-2009, 07:24 PM
Question to anyone who is active in this topic. What exactly are you authenticating about the Quran? That it was written by God, or was made all at once, or what?
Reply

جوري
08-08-2009, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Question to anyone who is active in this topic. What exactly are you authenticating about the Quran? That it was written by God, or was made all at once, or what?
It depends on the intentions of the OP... he started attacking the authenticity of the Qur'an first by the method of its collection, disputes over recitations, philology, arrangements and readings as per his orientalists (which I have addressed in quite expansive details see especially my last post). So this is where we are currently. I can't predict how it will evolve from this point. Obviously if you wish to challenge something you have to do in layers but it would be good if you are adept at what you are doing, if on the lowest common denominator not be wasteful of everyone's time!

all the best
Reply

Clover
08-08-2009, 07:33 PM
Well, I don't really care if its changed in the 1400 years or not. I mean, I guess it's possible for either ways. It could be not completely authentic, or it could not be. Either way, over a billion people believe it.
Reply

Hugo
08-09-2009, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
^ i can understand where you're coming from hugo, but this "Some now think its a pity that evolution is now longer a feature of Islam." I don't think you understand Islam much if you can actually say things like that, no offense, but really, do give us a bit more credit.

Hugo - a bit more credit for what? But I did not say it, my post said "some now..". Having said that are you implying here that Islam has moved on, that parts of sharia can be abolished as no longer of value - ie evolve?

Christianity now has evolved beyond what it was supposed to be in the first place, or more accurately devolved seeing that it's now not very different than the pagan religions that it came to address. if that is hat evolution means, then it is good for us that we stopped evolving.

Hugo - this is just nonsense or if it is true then it's the same for Islam as you have sunni, shia, behai etc etc all 73 of them as the prophet said.

otherwise, IMHO the discussion is not really a discussion anymore, it also has devolved to little more than nitpicking beyond reason, and making nonsensical points. not that you only are to blame.

Hugo - what would a good discussion mean for you? Would you be happy for me or anyone to produce pages of evidence that shows the Qu'ran to be corrupted? You say its nit picking but so far all we have done is discuss if Dr Azami shows scholarly chrateristics - what is your objection to doing that?

"..the people behind the Madina Mushaf for printing the most accurate Qu'ranic text in the world.

Comment by Hugo - So if words mean anything one supposes that there are Qu'ran's, perhaps millions of Qu'rans that are not accurate and one further supposes that it might later be possible to print an even more accurate one?"
this is what i mean by nonsensical, it is well known that the Arabs at the time of the prophet were not very literate, hence when the qur'an was written, some of them made slight mistakes, these mistakes were later the reason for Uthman's order that they be burned and only the copy that the prophet had ordered written be used, not the individual copies some made for themselves, hence the references to most accurate and so on.
So are YOU saying that Dr Azami's Qu'ran publishers has access to a manuscript copy approved by the Prophet? If so one supposes that it has been available for 1,400 years so why has it taken so long to get what Dr Azami calls 'the most accurate copy in the world".

Just as a matter of logic, if all the other copies were burned then there is not a shred of evidence they were different is there and for all anyone knows Uthman's copy is a total corruption?
Reply

Hugo
08-09-2009, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
i have 100% faith in Sister Skye being able to discuss the authenticity of the Qur'an.

Hugo - that is fine but does that mean the Sister Skye is Omniscient?

that says Bible, but yes, you are quite right that Christianity took hundreds of years to develop into it's "orthodox" form. Islam on the other hand was completed during the life of the Prophet. the Qur'an and Sunnah as understood by the 1st 3 generations of Islam IS Islam, not the whirling dervishes or even the shii'a.

:wa:
How long was three generations?
Reply

جوري
08-09-2009, 11:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
So are YOU saying that Dr Azami's Qu'ran publishers has access to a manuscript copy approved by the Prophet? If so one supposes that it has been available for 1,400 years so why has it taken so long to get what Dr Azami calls 'the most accurate copy in the world".

Just as a matter of logic, if all the other copies were burned then there is not a shred of evidence they were different is there and for all anyone knows Uthman's copy is a total corruption?

the answer has already been offered in this thread:

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
In Dr Azami's book on page xxi 3rd para he states

..the people behind the Madina Mushaf for printing the most accurate Qu'ranic text in the world.

So if words mean anything one supposes that there are Qu'ran's, perhaps millions of Qu'rans that are not accurate and one further supposes that it might later be possible to print an even more accurate one?

Incidentally, how does Dr Azami know it is the most accurate text in the world, has he access to some single original as well as all these supposedly inaccurate ones?

No, Only you are supposing that the others are false because oh it would be so delightful, the Medinah Mus'haf if you have bothered with a two second research you'd have come up with:

http://www.iqrashop.com/product_info...n&currency=GBP

and let me quote since the page won't allow for a cut and paste:


''However, authors and publishers have not been able to include the Qur'anic verses in documents and personal writings, except in normal fonts, which lack many of the aesthetic aspects that the Uthmanic calligraphy has. This has resulted in some instances of text distortions, confusion of reading or drops of certain items.''

To expound on that you'd have to know something about rules of reading the Quran, such as the use of idgham, iqlab, ith'har' in tajweed idgham and the rest each have a subset in 7iroof matmathleen, or 7iroof motqarbeen or 7iroof mot3abadeen etc e.x can only be given in Arabic as these are rules of grammar but for those Arabic speakers interested in further investigation:

نواع ادغام

ادغام از نظر مدغم و مدغم فیه، در روایت حفص از عاصم بر سه قسم است:

ادغام متامثلین

دو حرف مثل هم (متماثل) بلا استثناء در یکدیگر ادغام می شوند و کافی است که حرف اول ساکن باشد.
مثال

قُلْ لِمَنْ
لَهُمْ مُوسَی

اِضْرِبْ بِعَصَاکَ

رَبِحَتْ تِجَارَتُهُمْ

اَوْ وَزَنُوا

یدْرِکْکُم النساء 78

ادغام متجانسین

این ادغام فقط در موارد زیر انجام می شود:

  1. باء ساکن در میم مثل اِرْکَبْ مَعَنَا که در قرآن فقط همین مورد و در سوره هود علیه*السلام آمده است.
  2. (ت- د- ط) دو به دو با یکدیگر. مثل

اَحَطْتُ نمل آیه 22 ادغام ناقص
هَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ
قَدْتبَینَ

  1. (ث- ذ- ظ) دو به دو با یکدیگر. مثل

یلْهَثْ ذَلِکَ
اِذْ ظَلَمْتُمْ زخرف آیه 39
عَبَدْتَ
http://daneshnameh.roshd.ir/mavara/m...e=Check&Rand=0


this is a topic completely expansive and over your head, that I have no desire to discuss it here in any detail given your pedantry. But the parsing of letters dictates the speech and that certainly can be lost to people who don't understand the rules of grammar and thus tashkeel saves them the principal conditions behind it. They can read like the pro without being pros!




and yes of course the originals exist you can see them in the book or on line
.. one I have personally seen in Egypt.. you are simply not allowed to browse every page. You look at whatever is on display!

.

I have already gone extensively as well so did Dr. Al-Azami and actually is right on the cover of the book itself, that it doesn't matter the calligraphy, the dotting or the parsing. It is read in the exact same manner.. The recitations stylistically can differ as we have Quran Majwad, or moratal. as well we also have different styles of writing in Arabic:
riq3a, naskh, Thuluth, farsi, kufi and amazingly able to read them all just the same!
please allow me demonstrate:

la yazhal almr'r 3aliman ma talab al3ilm, fa'izha athann anaho qad 3alim faqd jahal (the above is a proverb is riq3a)

easy to read as is,

wa3ad Allah Alzheena amano wa'3amilo as'sali7at ...

this is the actual page by the way as you can see the calligrapher didn't leave meaning of the traditionally written text for me to decode it.
http://www.almajara.com/photos/detai...6b9d94d1491c2d

as well I can read this:

وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا يَغْشَى {1}
وَالنَّهَارِ إِذَا تَجَلَّى {2}
وَمَا خَلَقَ الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَى {3}
إِنَّ سَعْيَكُمْ لَشَتَّى {4}
Wa'lyel izha yagh'sha, wa'nahar izha tajala, wama khlaqa Alzhakara wa'lontha, inna sa3yokoum lashata



and this

la illah illah Allah, Mohammed rasool Allah

and the more common traditional naskh

min suret al'an3am al7mdllillah alzhi khalaq as'samwat w'alard, waja3ala athulmat wa'noor.




Now you tell me honesty If there were such a thing as an 'original bible' from the mouth of Jesus in such ancient text, or different shattered handwriting, would you be able to read it as I have just done with this level of confidence and fluidity?

examples of different recitations of the same surah mortal or mojwad you'll notice the 'tempo' of the first as such the entire surah is finished in 6 minutes and read differently than the second which at 8 minutes isn't half way through.. to the ignorant they can appear very different, but to the erudite they are but different styles:

Media Tags are no longer supported
___________________________

Media Tags are no longer supported


The Quran IS the unadulterated word of God and so it shall remain by his will!

all the best!
if it is unsatisfactory to you then the problem really isn't a matter of logic, rather personal disposition!
copies weren't burnt rather fragments.. the original such as the one in Hafsah's possession was always in existence, every verse was written down with the presence of two witnesses and an original by folks taught by the prophet himself and who have recited at least twice to him in the year of his death!

But if you believe otherwise, then bring your evidence of otherwise!

all the best
Reply

جوري
08-09-2009, 11:27 PM
''So Uthman sent Hafsah a message stating: send us the Suhuf so that we may make perfect copies and then return the suhuf back to you'' Hafsah sent it to Uthman who ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah bin zubair, Sa'id bin al-as and Abdur-rahman bin harith bin hisham to make duplicate copies. He told the three Queryshi men, ''should you disagree with Zaid ibn Thabit on any point regarding the Quran, write it in the dilaect of Querish is the Quran was revealed in their tongue'' They did so, and when they had prepared several copies'' Uthman returned the suhuf to Hafasah

Ibn Hajar, Fatul Bari, ix, hadith no. 4987; ibn abi dawud, al-Masahif, pp. 19-20; abu 'Ubaid. Fadail, P282.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-09-2009, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

Re: Authenticity of the Qur'an
Quote:
Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
i have 100% faith in Sister Skye being able to discuss the authenticity of the Qur'an.

Hugo - that is fine but does that mean the Sister Skye is Omniscient?

no, but it might mean that you are a dipstick! IF, and i realize that it might be difficult for you, IF you can stick to the topic at hand, and if you brought 10 or 12 friends to help you, Sister Skye would have you outnumbered in both knowledge of the Qur'an as well as class.

that says Bible, but yes, you are quite right that Christianity took hundreds of years to develop into it's "orthodox" form. Islam on the other hand was completed during the life of the Prophet. the Qur'an and Sunnah as understood by the 1st 3 generations of Islam IS Islam, not the whirling dervishes or even the shii'a.

How long was three generations?
it refers to the people, not a period of time.

from Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.

Abu Bakr died within 2 years of the Prophet. which day or days are you alleging that every single living Muslim at the time forgot the Qur'an AND what is your evidence?

:wa:
Reply

Hugo
08-10-2009, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I notice how when you are at a loss to defend your position against what I have written you resort to adhoms!

Hugo - I don't use ad hominem attacks but if I wished to then I am sad to say I have learned them from a master.

Nonetheless I have consistently quoted directly from the book.. It is not that difficult today, all you need is to cut down on the turgid lofty crap and replace it with something of substance. All you have managed to do is twist his words around, or leave out contents or take things out of contexts, you must realize that you come across as a complete Tartufe?!

Hugo - I have quoted Dr Azami's words and given exact references to them so that they can be examined. You are entitled to feel he is perfectly clear in what he says but I can and do take a different view. However, some readers could not even find the page when given its number and as to 'turgid lofty crap' its easy to find posts by some which are 20,000 words long and if I am abusively described as Tartuffe then perhaps you might consider taking the part of Laurent or Flipote.

Yes, discrediting the author should be allowed indeed, but it can only be done when certain conditions are met.

1- You quote properly!

Hugo - I always do AND give a full reference which you often do not. You need to understand that copying in large chunks is not good enough and it is proper to give the full ref to the primary source and that is why I rarely if ever use websites

2- you provide historical evidence to the contrary!

Hugo - that is fair up to a point but one cannot provide historical evidence as if its the only valid response to every query or criticism. For example, Dr Azami said 'OT books' and I said this was vague so his own words are all that is needed.

3 With all due respect of course, provide us with your own qualifications.. in other words, and let me use an example from above you declare 'he isn't learned in Greek or Hebrew' thus discounting anything he writes on the matter (though he himself references to western scholars on any topic regarding the previous testaments) yet by the same token you fail to do two things:

Hugo - I have stated my background in enough detail to meet the needs of this board but although I might have missed it I have seen no sign of yours? I did not write the book did I; so whether I am learned in Greek and Hebrew is not of much regard. If it is important then it may be that neither you nor I can read this book with any kind of understanding unless you are a Greek and Hebrew scholar as well as familiar with textual criticism plus being an expert in Arabic scripts and manuscript as well as philology - are you so qualified or has the book been written for the general reader??

a- when quoting an orientalist you fail to subject them to that same objections in their case for obvious reasons (for they fail to use Muslim scholars to corroborate their points)

Hugo - I am not sure what you imply here - that I must not say quote from Bernard Lewis unless a Muslim scholar corroborates his points? In that case I shall demand that whenever you quote a Muslim scholar you find an Orientalist to corroborate their points. I might also add that on a number of occasions I have quoted Muslim scholars but you without a though dismissed them and according to you all Orientalist are not worth a light - is this the pot calling the kettle black and you should acquaint yourself with the sort of fallacy that occurs when one applies double standards?

b- you fail to show your own accreditation as a scholar on the subject, and provide us with contrary evidence as to how or where he has erred!

Hugo - I have never claimed to be a scholar and it is not as far as I know a rule of this board that we must have our qualifications, if any, scrutinised and accepted before we can join in - if I am wrong then point me to the regulation and I will comply.

Hopefully now with new found clarity you realize why it is that you have no credibility none whatsoever!.. There is more to critique then putting English words together! a crying shame that I labor with such a concise long reply and this is all you can come up with!
all the best
I have made a few serious posts and they seem clear to me and I await your answers if any but if your only contribution is a continually attempt to discredit me then so be it as long as you don't go outside the norms expected in this board.
Reply

Hugo
08-10-2009, 12:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
it refers to the people, not a period of time.

Hugo - then the word 'generations' has no meaning in your original post if they all occurred at the same time. One might ask, what Sharia fully formed at the time of the prophet or did it not reach its final form until about the 10th century.

from Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.

Abu Bakr died within 2 years of the Prophet. which day or days are you alleging that every single living Muslim at the time forgot the Qur'an AND what is your evidence?:wa:
It is best not to insult me by calling me a 'dipstick', all that does is show the paucity of your own arguments and implies that Muslims are spiteful and uncaring.

Interesting here that you confirm there was no collection during the time of the prophet and seem to make nonsense of other posts which say every verse was written down and confirmed by two people - but I suppose you also must know this is not the only tradition?

I don't understand your last sentence as I am not aware that I said anything about anybody or everybody forgetting but if I did please point it out to me?
Reply

YusufNoor
08-10-2009, 01:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
It is best not to insult me by calling me a 'dipstick', all that does is show the paucity of your own arguments and implies that Muslims are spiteful and uncaring.

not really, but after at time we get to see the intent of people and we end up just not caring about some people. unless you repent, your attacks on the Qur'an will put you in the hellfire. not even Jesus/Isa, Alayhe Salaam, we be able to save from it without Allah's permission

Interesting here that you confirm there was no collection during the time of the prophet and seem to make nonsense of other posts which say every verse was written down and confirmed by two people - but I suppose you also must know this is not the only tradition?

perhaps you have forgotten how to read? i'll break it down below for the hard of hearing. although we could give you a diploma in nonsense

I don't understand your last sentence as I am not aware that I said anything about anybody or everybody forgetting but if I did please point it out to me?

UNLIKE the New Testament which is mostly anonymous or psuedonymous, and therefore EXTREMELY questionable in authenticity, the Ayats of the Qur'an were collected during the life of the Prophet, contemporaneously and with witnesses. you are claiming mistakes in this process, i am asking when and where these mistakes were made.
to answer the above attack on the veracity of the Qur'an:

Interesting here that you confirm there was no collection during the time of the prophet and seem to make nonsense of other posts which say every verse was written down and confirmed by two people - but I suppose you also must know this is not the only tradition?

How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?

this is correct, the Rasulullah NEVER ordered that the Qur'an be prepared as a book! EVER! i never said that he did. in fact it would have been impracticable to do so as, for as long as Rasulullah was alive,Wahy [Revelation] could come down. placement of this Revelation would be directed by Gibreel, Alayhe Salaam, himself! Rasulullah had to die in order for Revelation to stop and for the Qur'an to be complete.

Zaid ibn Thaabit was order to:

you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book

how is it that you don't understand this? how could he search for these fragments if they didn't exist?

So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him

Zaid had search until he found every Ayah PREVIOUSLY written down. how again does that make nonsense of every other post?

perhaps you feel that something can only be authentic if it is written anonymously and after a generation or so? THAT would be your book, NOT ours!

:wa:
Reply

جوري
08-10-2009, 01:26 AM



Hugo - I don't use ad hominem attacks but if I wished to then I am sad to say I have learned them from a master.
So what you are saying is, you are malleable and can't stand your ground, flounder under the slightest stress so you end up assimilating to what others' are doing rather than be assured by what you believe?


Hugo - I have quoted Dr Azami's words and given exact references to them so that they can be examined. You are entitled to feel he is perfectly clear in what he says but I can and do take a different view. However, some readers could not even find the page when given its number and as to 'turgid lofty crap' its easy to find posts by some which are 20,000 words long and if I am abusively described as Tartuffe then perhaps you might consider taking the part of Laurent or Flipote.
If it were the case then why is what I fully quote directly from the book completely at odds with what you allege?
As to not finding the page, again I question what is your excuse for not finding what is right on the cover? A post that is' 20,000 words long' should echo that one has slaved and labored to quote correctly, properly reference and took the time to respond to each comment with high fidelity. You ought to try it something in lieu of winding every thread to a place where we always have to allay your bruised ego...



Hugo - I always do AND give a full reference which you often do not. You need to understand that copying in large chunks is not good enough and it is proper to give the full ref to the primary source and that is why I rarely if every use websites


what a paradox, so which is it, do you give reference or doing so isn't good enough.. or simply the things you write are correct because you are too good to be true? You don't support anything you write and you have no scholarship in the subject you are gauging so why should anyone take anything you write with other than a grain of salt?
The previous page where I have answered you paragraph by paragraph is all my writing, except for the portion where I corroborate Dr. Al-Azami's writings as per regard to the OT using and outside source. You are yet to address it or the other about 'the best copy' shbeal!


Hugo - that is fair but one cannot provide historical evidence as if its the only valid response to every query or criticism. For example, Dr Azami said 'OT books' and I said this was vague so his own words are all that is needed.
If you can't provide evidence to the contrary, then by what audacity do you dare criticize? A critique is an appraisal based on certainty, the veracity of content in contrast to opposing or supporting evidence.

The sky is blue at 12 o'clock on a Saturday, she exclaimed -- you come and say No, it wasn't blue! with your casual assured conviction.. well do you have evidence that it was gray? or muddy with wind from the western front, white from a blizzard?... sure the possibilities are endless, but what is your evidence to corroborate what you say-- a hunch? a feeling? or is it mere dislike for the person who said thus leading you to automatically find everything objectionable?


Hugo - I have stated my background in enough detail to meet the needs of this board but although I might have missed it I have seen no sign of yours? I did not write the book did I so whether I am learned in Greek and Hebrew is not of much regard. If it is important then it may be that neither you nor I can read this book with any kind of understanding unless you are a Greek and Hebrew scholar as well as familiar with textual criticism plus being an expert in Arabic scripts and manuscript as well as philology - are you so qualified or has the book been written for the general reader??

I haven't read anything by on your background ( I think a person's background should be evinced from their writing... when critiquing another on lack of merits in said fields is it because you are better acquired with profound knowledge in said areas or simply miffed by contents that challenge the foundation of your beliefs?

when you have signed up for your class in 'textual criticisms', you must have done poorly as you are unable to substantiate why you are so irked when your overt flaws are pointed out, and enraged at best if you are questioned on whether or not you subject orientalists to those same particulars right from the preface. Given the stuff you spew here with bravado, you are lacking complete basic knowledge of the fundamentals in the subjects which you gauge, and I don't need a class in textual criticism to point it out as it is visible to the naked eye!

btw, I haven't feigned scholarship when I recommended a book (to someone other than you if I may add) but my baseline starts in a far superior place than yours as far as Islamic methodology is concerned and Arabic is my mother tongue! While on the subject, what was Jesus' mother tongue and do you speak it?



Hugo - I am not sure what you imply here - that I must not say quote from Bernard Lewis unless a Muslim scholar corroborates his points? In that case I shall demand that whenever you quote a Muslim scholar you find an Orientalist to corroborate their points. I might also add that on a number of occasions I have quoted Muslim scholars but you without a though dismissed them and according to you all Orientalist are not worth a light - is this the pot calling the kettle black and you should acquaint yourself with the sort of fallacy that occurs when one applies double standards?

It is really quite simple and I think Dr. Al-Azami sums it up best when he wrote : I will raise an analogous question: in Jewish opinion, can an anti-Semitic scholar be deemed impartial when examining Jewish documents such as the OT or the dead sea scrolls? Whatever verdict we receive in the affirmative or negative we must apply to orientalists supposed objectivity in dissecting Islam.''

on a side note you allege Islamic scholarship, yet none of the people you'd brought are recognized as such. Again, I ask do you have a different definition of 'Muslim scholar' than the rest of us .. something fundamental is missing from said title, that being a Muslim! Also writing 'The Best Arabic Lexicon' doesn't make one an expert on Islamic text, anymore than a general practitioner an expert on surgical neurology. Having an M.D or PhD next to your name grants you scholarship in the area of your studies and it doesn't extend itself outside your sphere of expertise. Furthermore I have shown where ones qualifications and even licensure in a field maybe revoked under questionable personal agenda.. although I can't see such sound judgement being applied to orientalists given that the anti-Islamic sentiment is ever en vogue and goes unquestioned!


Hugo - it is not as far as I know a rule of this board that we must have our qualifications, if any, scrutinised and accepted before we can join in - if I am wrong then point me to the regulation. One might though say that being able to write a correct sentence and spell correcty is helpful.
When you write emphatically as if 'an authority sounding figure' on the field.. be prepared to be challenged on the accuracy of that which you spew especially so when all we have to go by is your word alone!

I have a headache.. Take an aspirin (with authority) well, will the ASA. work as well for a headache caused by
giant cell arteritis as it does for a cluster migraine (actually we don't treat migrains with ASA) nonetheless for the sake of argument. Hopefully you can see the absurdity as an anlogue to what you write?.. Is it simply that Aspirin has worked (for you) and thus it must for everyone else by your authority as a headache sufferer?


I have made a few serious posts and they seem clear to me and I await your answers if any but if your only contribution is a continually attempt to discredit me then so be it as long as you don't go outside the norms expected in this board.
You actually haven't made any serious posts, and all you need to do is go to the thread, 'things in Islam I am curious about' and see that you bring exactly the same agenda as that of your predecessors, if it weren't the case, then it wouldn't have taken me exactly 0.69 sec search to come up with threads where the exact same topics have been brought up and addressed nearly a hundred times over.. It doesn't matter the style you choose for yourself the content doesn't differ much from those before you and in all liklihood those to come after you.


all the best
Reply

Uthman
08-10-2009, 06:29 AM
Members are reminded of the need to maintain the correct and proper etiquette when debating others. Forum rule #9:
Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting somebody)
This isn't directed at anybody in particular.
Reply

GreyKode
08-10-2009, 10:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
'The Best Arabic Lexicon' doesn't make one an expert on Islamic text, aound

I just wanted to respond to this point cause Hugo keeps bring about the point "Oh, go look for the best arabic lexicon around and see who wrote it" in reference to the works of non-muslims and orientalists.

My response:

Arabic IS the language of Islam and the scholars like the four Imams for example were unmatched in the language, so what are you possibly claiming here?, that someone who compiled a lexicon is somehow comparable in skill to the Islamic scholars who lived and talked the language, like say ibn kathir.
Its just like saying the compiler of the oxford dictionary is like shakespeare in literary skill.

Probably whomever wrote those lexicons must have relied on Islamic literature because there aint any other arabic literature(arab chrisitian literature or jewish maybe) richer than that of the muslims.
Reply

Hugo
08-10-2009, 10:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
to answer the above attack on the veracity of the Qur'an. Hugo - I made NO attach on the Qu'ran, please do not invent falsehoods and may I respectfully suggest you read the posts to see this is correct.

Originally Posted by Hugo - It is best not to insult me by calling me a 'dipstick', all that does is show the paucity of your own arguments and implies that Muslims are spiteful and uncaring.
not really, but after at time we get to see the intent of people and we end up just not caring about some people. unless you repent, your attacks on the Qur'an will put you in the hellfire. not even Jesus/Isa, Alayhe Salaam, we be able to save from it without Allah's permission.
Hugo - as I said I have made NO attacks on the Qu'ran and may I remind you the board is open to all as long as they follow the rules. You say you know my intent but I can equally say I know yours so we get nowhere do we by being self-righteous and judgement belongs to Gods not you or me.

Posting by Hugo - Interesting here that you confirm there was no collection during the time of the prophet and seem to make nonsense of other posts which say every verse was written down and confirmed by two people - but I suppose you also must know this is not the only tradition?
perhaps you have forgotten how to read? i'll break it down below for the hard of hearing. although we could give you a diploma in nonsense.
Hugo - I think its time you read with understanding the administrator's recent post.

Original Posting By Hugo - I don't understand your last sentence as I am not aware that I said anything about anybody or everybody forgetting but if I did please point it out to me?
UNLIKE the New Testament which is mostly anonymous or psuedonymous, and therefore EXTREMELY questionable in authenticity, the Ayats of the Qur'an were collected during the life of the Prophet, contemporaneously and with witnesses. you are claiming mistakes in this process, i am asking when and where these mistakes were made. to answer the above attack on the veracity of the Qur'an:

Hugo - you are just inventing this, I did not claim there were mistakes all I did was quote what Dr Azami said about accuracy so I suggest you direct your allegation to him.

Original Posted by Hugo - Interesting here that you confirm there was no collection during the time of the prophet and seem to make nonsense of other posts which say every verse was written down and confirmed by two people - but I suppose you also must know this is not the only tradition?
this is correct, the Rasulullah NEVER ordered that the Qur'an be prepared as a book! EVER! i never said that he did. in fact it would have been impracticable to do so as, for as long as Rasulullah was alive,Wahy [Revelation] could come down. placement of this Revelation would be directed by Gibreel, Alayhe Salaam, himself! Rasulullah had to die in order for Revelation to stop and for the Qur'an to be complete.

Zaid ibn Thaabit was order to: you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book. how is it that you don't understand this? how could he search for these fragments if they didn't exist?

Hugo - I know this tradition very well as well as a many others. But here you make logical nonsense. If the verses were all written down with such care why did he have to search at all? How do we know he found all the fragments? Why was the Qu'ran is such disarray, how did he know a fragments was a genuine one and so on. Because you do not read these traditions with care I think you are just creating a minefield for ridicule.

So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him

Zaid had search until he found every Ayah PREVIOUSLY written down. how again does that make nonsense of every other post?

Hugo - but how did he know he had every one? It make nonsense because other posts speak of verses being written down and verified by two people and that sounds like great care was taken but what you say looks like lets hope for the best.

perhaps you feel that something can only be authentic if it is written anonymously and after a generation or so? THAT would be your book, NOT ours!
So far in my post I have not brought up the question of authenticity and my posts on Dr Azami's book are about his qualities as a careful scholar.

Let me ask you a question then as per your last sentence - who was the author of the Qu'ran and can you authenticate this person as the one who penned those pages, can you trace the writings back to him or her?
Reply

Hugo
08-10-2009, 11:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
I just wanted to respond to this point cause Hugo keeps bring about the point "Oh, go look for the best arabic lexicon around and see who wrote it" in reference to the works of non-muslims and Orientalist. My response:

Arabic IS the language of Islam and the scholars like the four Imams for example were unmatched in the language, so what are you possibly claiming here?, that someone who compiled a lexicon is somehow comparable in skill to the Islamic scholars who lived and talked the language, like say ibn kathir.
Its just like saying the compiler of the oxford dictionary is like shakespeare in literary skill.

Probably whomever wrote those lexicons must have relied on Islamic literature because there aint any other arabic literature(arab chrisitian literature or jewish maybe) richer than that of the muslims.
I think it helps if you read what was posted and its context. The lexicon in question is one by Lane and it is the very best there is and no scholar of Arabic or Islam would be without it's 8 volumes. My point was that it is simply foolish to suggest that only Islamic literature is of value.

You say about great Islamic scholars but we don't have any lexicons from them do we as far as I know. The Arabic we are talking about is as it was spoken and written 1,400 years ago. It follows that to understand it you have to tune in to the use of the language back then.

So Lane when he compiled his lexicon would have looked at every bit of Arabic literature he could find (including non-Islamic sources such as Poetry of which there was a good deal) of whatever kind to see how a word was used and hence define its meaning. If you look at the lexicon it not only gives the meaning but also examples from the literature of the time. The Arabic of the Qu'ran was just ordinary everyday Arabic of the time otherwise no one could have understood it. So to understand it now we need lexicons.
Reply

GreyKode
08-10-2009, 11:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
The lexicon in question is one by Lane and it is the very best there is and no scholar of Arabic or Islam would be without it's 8 volumes.
You have such audacity to make such claims....!!
Do you think any of the Islamic scholars really use laine's lexicon, are you kidding or something? Is it being taught in Al - azhar or anywhere else, do you think they don't have better sources?
They have been taught by people who were taught by people who did talk and live the language.
Did Ibn kathir and the likes need laine's lexicon in writing his tafseer?
Does Imam al sha'rawi use this lexicon in writing his tafaseer?
What in the world are you talking about?

[/QUOTE]

My point was that it is simply foolish to suggest that only Islamic literature is of value.
Like i said there are hardly any other pieces of ancient arabic literature that are non-Islamic, and if you think about it, it makes sense, in egypt where I live, the christian egyptians are for some reason very fond of the coptic culture and language, even their priests they are not well versed in classical arabic, in fact they hate it, and this is a well known fact, unlike the muslims Imams who or sheikhs who always speak it on radio programs, juma'a prayers etc etc.

You say about great Islamic scholars but we don't have any lexicons from them do we as far as I know. The Arabic we are talking about is as it was spoken and written 1,400 years ago. It follows that to understand it you have to tune in to the use of the language back then.
You keep saying we???, Maybe you need the it when you wanna read something in arabic, but most of us arabs don't.
Doesn't ever occur to your mind that people learn things orally from their teachers, in fact when it comes to language it is more effective
Again, you keep lying to yourself and make it seem like the arabic of the Qur'an is a dead language, but like I said previously, in all our congregational prayers, radio programs, etc etc, the imams, sheikhs speak that very same language, or almost it to be fair.
Reply

جوري
08-10-2009, 03:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I think it helps if you read what was posted and its context. The lexicon in question is one by Lane and it is the very best there is and no scholar of Arabic or Islam would be without it's 8 volumes. My point was that it is simply foolish to suggest that only Islamic literature is of value.
We are not discussing literature, we are discussing Islamic methodology, jurisprudence, monotheism. on the Comparative section of an Islamic board.. what were you hoping to discuss here? A Woman Waits For Me by Walt Whitman?

You say about great Islamic scholars but we don't have any lexicons from them do we as far as I know. The Arabic we are talking about is as it was spoken and written 1,400 years ago. It follows that to understand it you have to tune in to the use of the language back then.
Not the case, the Arabic of Quyerish is the standard Arabic that is taught in classes. In fact anyone wanting to learn proper grammar can use the Quran for its mere language if nothing else. You can learn proper i3rab simply using the Quran. Nonetheless, I am not familiar with 'greatest book' of Arabic lexicon, I wouldn't deny anyone 8 volumes of hard work in the field of 'vocabulary'-- I still don't see the relations between that and its extension to the science of the Quran and Hadith? Or why any Muslims scholar or Arabic speaker would use it in lieu of the fund of knowledge that we have. Al Azhar is THE OLDEST AND FIRST UNIVERSITY IN THE WORLD. Which is where Many Muslim scholars graduate from. Any Ivy League school was actually adopted after Al-Azhar!


So Lane when he compiled his lexicon would have looked at every bit of Arabic literature he could find (including non-Islamic sources such as Poetry of which there was a good deal) of whatever kind to see how a word was used and hence define its meaning. If you look at the lexicon it not only gives the meaning but also examples from the literature of the time. The Arabic of the Qu'ran was just ordinary everyday Arabic of the time otherwise no one could have understood it. So to understand it now we need lexicons.
That is not true, that last conclusion is your own. Any Arabic speaker can understand the Quran. see above reply on the fact that the Quyerishi Arabic is the standard form of Arabic, hardly any of us, use 'Lane' if at a loss for meaning, and I am not aware of any Scholar that has either. When Leopold Weiss translated the Quran, he did so after living in Saudi Arabia and with Bedouins for 22 years, he was able to capture some of the more elusive terms and gave quite an expansive commentary in his ' The Message of the Quran'

which gets 5 star reviews. He didn't use 'The best Arabic Lexicon' to do so.


Reply

Hugo
08-10-2009, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
You have such audacity to make such claims....!!
Do you think any of the Islamic scholars really use laine's lexicon, are you kidding or something? Is it being taught in Al - azhar or anywhere else, do you think they don't have better sources? They have been taught by people who were taught by people who did talk and live the language. Did Ibn kathir and the likes need laine's lexicon in writing his tafseer? Does Imam al sha'rawi use this lexicon in writing his tafaseer? What in the world are you talking about?

Hugo - perhaps you should look at one of the most respected and widely used English translations of the Qu'ran, that by Yusuf Ali and see what he says in foot notes. One does not teach a lexicon and simply saying that betrays a lack of understanding of what such a tool is. If you are knowledgeable about Al Azhar then tell me what lexicons they use or recommend or if they have Lane's in their library? Go and ask them what their view of it is?

In answer to your question, Ibn Kathir did not use Lane as he was long dead but he was 700 years later that the Prophet so he must have used something. But I guess Al Sha'rawi did since he was born after Lane died. You cannot possibly be suggesting that lexicons are of no value or that every Qu'ranic word is taught at al Azhar one at a time, all 2,822 of them. You cannot seriously be suggesting that the language was passed on one to one without it ever occurring to anyone to write it down as a dictionary or lexicon?

If there is any audacity here it seems to be your view that a lexicon, whoever good has no value unless its written by a Muslim. I suppose you do not accept penicillin as it was not invented by a Muslim or the iPod or cars, or lasers, or text books .....?

Like i said there are hardly any other pieces of ancient arabic literature that are non-Islamic, and if you think about it, it makes sense, in egypt where I live, the christian egyptians are for some reason very fond of the coptic culture and language, even their priests they are not well versed in classical arabic, in fact they hate it, and this is a well known fact, unlike the muslims Imams who or sheikhs who always speak it on radio programs, juma'a prayers etc etc.

Hugo - well I am not expert here I think you will find there is quite a lot of non-Islamic literature; would it be a good thing if there were none? What is wrong with being 'fond of coptic culture'; is that some kind of sin? Are you proud of your Egyptian heritage or would you wish it were all swept away because it is a pagan one? If your mind is so set on Islamic things as the only ones being of value then you are set to lose out in a big way.

Doesn't ever occur to your mind that people learn things orally from their teachers, in fact when it comes to language it is more effective. Again, you keep lying to yourself and make it seem like the arabic of the Qur'an is a dead language, but like I said previously, in all our congregational prayers, radio programs, etc etc, the imams, sheikhs speak that very same language, or almost it to be fair.
I am not aware that I said anywhere that the Qu'ranic language is dead, its old, its not what you use in daily conversations. All I said was that the Qu'ran was written in everyday Arabic of its time so don't invent things I said.
Reply

MSalman
08-10-2009, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
All I said was that the Qu'ran was written in everyday Arabic of its time so don't invent things I said.
yet, they could not bring anything to match the Qur'an: the style, language, content, etc. strange, is it not?
Reply

Hugo
08-10-2009, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
yet, they could not bring anything to match the Qur'an: the style, language, content, etc. strange, is it not?
I assume you mean here that 'at the time' was 1,400 years ago they (who exactly are "they") could not do it then so no its not strange at all but it is not true now is it?
Reply

GreyKode
08-10-2009, 06:06 PM
Hugo - perhaps you should look at one of the most respected and widely used English translations of the Qu'ran, that by Yusuf Ali and see what he says in foot notes. One does not teach a lexicon and simply saying that betrays a lack of understanding of what such a tool is. If you are knowledgeable about Al Azhar then tell me what lexicons they use or recommend or if they have Lane's in their library? Go and ask them what their view of it is?

What are we debating here? I never said it is of no value, in fact I knows its great worth, I simply said that your claim that
"Every muslim and arabic scholar relies on it is simply not true", not beacuase he is a non-muslim, but because they have other sources which are probably more convenient to them, plus like I said earlier the scholars learn from their teachers in an oral fashion, like when you tell me i read this peice of info in one of einstein's books, i will tell you, i got this info when I listened to him personally in one of his lectures or i discussed this with him, obviously the second experience is richer.

In answer to your question, Ibn Kathir did not use Lane as he was long dead but he was 700 years later that the Prophet so he must have used something. But I guess Al Sha'rawi did since he was born after Lane died. You cannot possibly be suggesting that lexicons are of no value or that every Qu'ranic word is taught at al Azhar one at a time, all 2,822 of them. You cannot seriously be suggesting that the language was passed on one to one without it ever occurring to anyone to write it down as a dictionary or lexicon?

Do you even know who sha'rawi is???, like I said earlier, its like saying Maxwell, or say Max planck got his information from einstein.
What was the style of those old great scientists, everybody knows that their sources were highly fragmentary and most likely containing very rich and complex information, like say the works of Gauss etc...
That was the case with sheikh sha'rawi (rahimahullah) he wasn't the kind of person who would use the common man's material in doing his work, he must have referred directly to the sources of the sources.

If there is any audacity here it seems to be your view that a lexicon, whoever good has no value unless its written by a Muslim. I suppose you do not accept penicillin as it was not invented by a Muslim or the iPod or cars, or lasers, or text books .....?
Youre putting words in my mouth, I never said this and you know it, I NEVER SAID THE LEXICON IS OF NO VALUE, you are the one who said that it is the source for every Islamic scholars, this is what i object too like i said earlier the arabic language is embedded in Islam, and was introduced into egypt when Islam entered it, and that goes for Iran, pakistan etc etc
Reply

GreyKode
08-10-2009, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I assume you mean here that 'at the time' was 1,400 years ago they (who exactly are "they") could not do it then so no its not strange at all but it is not true now is it?
The Quraishi contemporaries of the prophet's time were unmatched Giants in the language, how can you possibly compare them to the people of our time??
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MSalman
08-10-2009, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I assume you mean here that 'at the time' was 1,400 years ago they
yes.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
(who exactly are "they")
I am sorry, but is that not clear - the Arabs, obviouslly. You claimed that Qur'an was revealed in their daily language, which in other words imply that the language of the Qur'an was not superior to Arabs language of that time. Which in fact is either an outright lie or ignorance of history or deliberate deception. If what you claim is true then it should have been very easier for them to match the challenge of the Qur'an. Do you not agree? If so, how come they could not produce anything like the Qur'an? In fact, the history tells us that they admitted their inability to meet the challenge of the Qur'an and thus claiming the superiority of the Qur'an. Now on whatever basis you disagree with those accounts is a whole different stroy

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
but it is not true now is it?
really, please try this on someone else. Again, like I have told you few times in the past: more evidence and less of your own assertions
Reply

Uthman
08-10-2009, 07:13 PM
Somebody mentioned Yusuf Ali's translation. It must be made clear that Yusuf Ali had no formal Islamic education and is known to make many errors in his commentary. In his book An Introduction to the sciences of the Qur'aan, Yasir Qadhi writes:
The problem with this translation however, is Ali's footnotes. These are indicative of his "Soofi leanings, and smack of apologia and pseudo-rationalism." The Muslim World League released a pamphlet detailing the errors in these footnotes, but this pamphlet was not exhaustive. There have been 'revised' editions of Yusuf Ali's translation published, but even these are not free from error.
Yasir Qadhi goes on to expand further and refers to examples. Although not directly related to the topic, this information is relevant to anybody wishing to express a point using Yusuf Ali's work.

Unforunately, most popular does not equal most correct.
Reply

Hugo
08-10-2009, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
What are we debating here? I never said it is of no value, in fact I knows its great worth, I simply said that your claim that
"Every muslim and arabic scholar relies on it is simply not true", not beacuase he is a non-muslim, but because they have other sources which are probably more convenient to them, plus like I said earlier the scholars learn from their teachers in an oral fashion, like when you tell me i read this peice of info in one of einstein's books, i will tell you, i got this info when I listened to him personally in one of his lectures or i discussed this with him, obviously the second experience is richer.

In answer to your question, Ibn Kathir did not use Lane as he was long dead but he was 700 years later that the Prophet so he must have used something. But I guess Al Sha'rawi did since he was born after Lane died. You cannot possibly be suggesting that lexicons are of no value or that every Qu'ranic word is taught at al Azhar one at a time, all 2,822 of them. You cannot seriously be suggesting that the language was passed on one to one without it ever occurring to anyone to write it down as a dictionary or lexicon?

Do you even know who sha'rawi is???, like I said earlier, its like saying Maxwell, or say Max planck got his information from einstein.
What was the style of those old great scientists, everybody knows that their sources were highly fragmentary and most likely containing very rich and complex information, like say the works of Gauss etc...
That was the case with sheikh sha'rawi (rahimahullah) he wasn't the kind of person who would use the common man's material in doing his work, he must have referred directly to the sources of the sources.
Let's agree that we both misundetstood each other and move on. My concern was that you should not dismiss books, ANY book that is good and has value simply because of who the authors is.

Yes, I know of sha'rawi, that is if you are talking about the famous Egyptian cleric? Interestingly it seems he came to fame because he could speak, so his biography goes 'to the common man'.

My own view of those who are learned is that they use everything and anything almost they can get their hands on. So we can learn from the very best textbooks or the dustman and although I know little of sha'rawi he seems a man who was able and willing to keep on learning whatever he was doing or whoever he met and that is one of the reasons he was so popular on TV, he was not content just to repeat but to add and explain. Of course he used the best sources but I am sure he did not neglect what others have said either.

Every Blessing
Reply

crizon
08-11-2009, 01:35 AM
Ah the usual. Muslims claim the Koran is 100% original, while Christians claim the same about the bible.

I did watch a documentary about a scientist who claimed that the Koran was altered on numerous occasions.. he received death threats though.

It's simply a matter of believe for most. No muslim would ever accept a statetment about an alteration of the Koran, even if the proof was solid, just like many people still think the theory of evolution is some sort of gigantic fraud.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2009, 02:00 AM
This thread is about the 'Authenticity of the Quran'-- Do you have something of substance to impart on the matter or just parting wise pearls that you don't care to support?
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YusufNoor
08-11-2009, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
So far in my post I have not brought up the question of authenticity and my posts on Dr Azami's book are about his qualities as a careful scholar.

Let me ask you a question then as per your last sentence - who was the author of the Qu'ran and can you authenticate this person as the one who penned those pages, can you trace the writings back to him or her?
Well tell me where an original copy exist that was checked by prophet Mohammed?
in your very first post you attempt to cloud the issue of the "written" Qur'an when the Rasulullah never had it collected in one place as a book. it wasn't necessary as there were numerous Hafz who knew the Qur'an by heart. not only did they know the Qur'an by heart but there are various hadith on how limits were placed on how often the were allowed to recite the entire Qur'an. the limit was placed at every three days with 7 days being better. only after the martyrdom of dozens and dozens of Hafz and teachers of the Qur'an did Umar ibn Al Kittab even approach Abu Bakr with the idea of putting the "Recitation" together in book form.

IF you've done ANY research, you would know this so you know your question is nonsensical. we understand that you have Mushaff Envy and would like to make the Qur'an seem as questionable as your "Bible."

Hugo - that is fine but does that mean the Sister Skye is Omniscient?
here you are attacking Islam as well as Muslims. we don't assign the attributes of Allah to human beings. it is not correct in Islam, i understand the you Christians do it with various persons or entities, but it is unacceptable in Islam. furthermore, IF any Muslims do it, they are wrong and committing a form of shirk. but again if you've done any research, you already know that.

Interesting here that you confirm there was no collection during the time of the prophet and seem to make nonsense of other posts which say every verse was written down and confirmed by two people - but I suppose you also must know this is not the only tradition?
we'll leave you to explain why you cannot repeatedly understand the difference between Ayats of the Qur'an and the Qur'an as a whole.

Hugo - I know this tradition very well as well as a many others. But here you make logical nonsense. If the verses were all written down with such care why did he have to search at all? How do we know he found all the fragments? Why was the Qu'ran is such disarray, how did he know a fragments was a genuine one and so on. Because you do not read these traditions with care I think you are just creating a minefield for ridicule.
again, same thing. the verses were written down, copies were made to bring to the Sahabah so that they could learn the Ayats/Surah. many Ayats were individually revealed, Surat Al Baqarah has close to 300 verses, many individually, somem in pairs. where you you keep 150 pieces of bone fragments and various other bits IF YOU DIDN'T NEED THEM? and what would you call bone fragments?

Hugo - but how did he know he had every one? It make nonsense because other posts speak of verses being written down and verified by two people and that sounds like great care was taken but what you say looks like lets hope for the best.
written down and verified, then sent out to teach. and it IS possible for Zaid to make a mistake, that's why he didn't do it alone.

and this last bit is rich:

So far in my post I have not brought up the question of authenticity and my posts on Dr Azami's book are about his qualities as a careful scholar.

Let me ask you a question then as per your last sentence - who was the author of the Qu'ran and can you authenticate this person as the one who penned those pages, can you trace the writings back to him or her?
The Qur'an is from Allah and you ask "who is the author of the Qur'an?"] IMMEDIATELY after claiming the you haven't questioned it's authenticity, as well as asking if we can "authenticate Allah"!

i think we should give you a kunya. i dub you Hugo ibn Abee Lahab! may you share his fate!

but looking at your last sentence, you you plan to tell us "who was the author of the each and every book in the Bible and can you authenticate this person as the one who penned those Books, can you trace the writings back to him or her? cuz THAT would make history!

i eagerly await your report
Reply

Ramadhan
08-11-2009, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by crizon
Ah the usual. Muslims claim the Koran is 100% original, while Christians claim the same about the bible.
Christians claim the bible is 100% original? Really? In what sense?


I did watch a documentary about a scientist who claimed that the Koran was altered on numerous occasions.. he received death threats though.

It's simply a matter of believe for most. No muslim would ever accept a statetment about an alteration of the Koran, even if the proof was solid, just like many people still think the theory of evolution is some sort of gigantic fraud.
Please produce the 'solid proof' that Qur'an is altered.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-11-2009, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crizon
Ah the usual. Muslims claim the Koran is 100% original, while Christians claim the same about the bible.

I did watch a documentary about a scientist who claimed that the Koran was altered on numerous occasions.. he received death threats though.

It's simply a matter of believe for most. No muslim would ever accept a statetment about an alteration of the Koran, even if the proof was solid, just like many people still think the theory of evolution is some sort of gigantic fraud.
The Qur'an is the same Qur'an from the last 1400 years because countless Muslims have memorized the Qur'an in our day and age. And if person A makes a mistake or says something that isn't in the Qur'an whether this be an ateration, addition or whatever then person B will correct him, even if these two Muslims have never met. If you throw every last copy of the Qur'an into the river and then bring a person from germany, another from russia, another from america and another from australia who have memorized the Qur'an then we will have the same Qur'an back in our hands because this is an unaltered book that has been preserved through time. Thus, putting an end to your nonsense.

But perhaps some of us just want to believe that we were once monkies, mating without shame while the world watches on and then sleeping in our own waste. Maybe some of us want's to believe the proof for this lies in the fact they their physical appearence is similar to that of a human, and their emotions are similar to that of humanly emotions such as laughter and sadness, thus coming to the 'undeniable' conclusion that he is our dear father and mother.

Not me though. Common sense played a major part in teaching me otherwise :thumbs_up.
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Hugo
08-11-2009, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Originally Posted by Hugo
So far in my post I have not brought up the question of authenticity and my posts on Dr Azami's book are about his qualities as a careful scholar. Let me ask you a question then as per your last sentence - who was the author of the Qu'ran and can you authenticate this person as the one who penned those pages, can you trace the writings back to him or her? Well tell me where an original copy exists that was checked by prophet Mohammed?
in your very first post you attempt to cloud the issue of the "written" Qur'an when the Rasulullah never had it collected in one place as a book. it wasn't necessary as there were numerous Hafz who knew the Qur'an by heart etc. IF you've done ANY research, you would know this so you know your question is nonsensical. we understand that you have Mushaff Envy and would like to make the Qur'an seem as questionable as your "Bible."

Hugo - if you had done any research you would know there are many traditions and they do not all agree. You simply accept this one without question and complain that others do not. In what way is the Bible Questionable since many of the stories are repeated in the Qu'ran so it must be questionnable also? To talk of 'envy' is an absurdity.

Hugo - that is fine but does that mean the Sister Skye is Omniscient?
Here you are attacking Islam as well as Muslims. we don't assign the attributes of Allah to human beings. it is not correct in Islam, i understand the you Christians do it with various persons or entities, but it is unacceptable in Islam. furthermore, IF any Muslims do it, they are wrong and committing a form of shirk. but again if you've done any research, you already know that.

Hugo - I cannot follow your logic here from my quote and perhaps if you examined the Qu'ran you might notice that Allah can see. Is it wrong to say address God as 'father' or describe God as a might fortress a rock or that he stretches out his hand and so on. I don't think I have attacked Islam but simply asked questions about it and there is a big difference. If you see every criticism or question as an attack that sounds like paranoia - do you see it like that.

Hugo - I know this tradition very well as well as a many others. But here you make logical nonsense. If the verses were all written down with such care why did he have to search at all? How do we know he found all the fragments? Why was the Qu'ran is such disarray, how did he know a fragments was a genuine one and so on. Because you do not read these traditions with care I think you are just creating a minefield for ridicule.
again, same thing. the verses were written down, copies were made to bring to the Sahabah so that they could learn the Ayats/Surah. many Ayats were individually revealed, Surat Al Baqarah has close to 300 verses, many individually, somem in pairs. where you you keep 150 pieces of bone fragments and various other bits IF YOU DIDN'T NEED THEM? and what would you call bone fragments?

Hugo - you brought this up not me so please answer my questions. Here we have to ask was this done right from the first revelation, day one?

Originally Posted by Hugo - So far in my post I have not brought up the question of authenticity and my posts on Dr Azami's book are about his qualities as a careful scholar. Let me ask you a question then as per your last sentence - who was the author of the Qu'ran and can you authenticate this person as the one who penned those pages, can you trace the writings back to him or her?
The Qur'an is from Allah and you ask "who is the author of the Qur'an?"] IMMEDIATELY after claiming the you haven't questioned it's authenticity, as well as asking if we can "authenticate Allah"!

Hugo - let us be clear here, YOU brought up the question regarding authenticity in your post. All I am doing is following it with a question and I have an open mind on the issue. Here your answer must be based on a fallacy of the kind related to falsifiability - I cannot falsify your claim that the author of the Qu'ran is God and you cannot prove it. So we get nowhere in terms of enlightenment.

i think we should give you a kunya. i dub you Hugo ibn Abee Lahab! may you share his fate!

Hugo - I wonder what honorific I might apply to you - but then I don't resort to spiteful insults do I?

but looking at your last sentence, you you plan to tell us "who was the author of the each and every book in the Bible and can you authenticate this person as the one who penned those Books, can you trace the writings back to him or her? cuz THAT would make history! i eagerly await your report.
Answering your last question sis easy, I simply resort to the same fallacy you used "The Bible is from God and you ask "who is the author of the Bible?" Immediately after claiming the you have questioned it's authenticity, as well as asking if we can "authenticate God"! (incidentally do you know who wrote down each and every Qu'ran verse all 6000 or so?)
Reply

Hugo
08-11-2009, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The Qur'an is the same Qur'an from the last 1400 years because countless Muslims have memorized the Qur'an in our day and age. And if person A makes a mistake or says something that isn't in the Qur'an whether this be an ateration, addition or whatever then person B will correct him, even if these two Muslims have never met. If you throw every last copy of the Qur'an into the river and then bring a person from germany, another from russia, another from america and another from australia who have memorized the Qur'an then we will have the same Qur'an back in our hands because this is an unaltered book that has been preserved through time. Thus, putting an end to your nonsense.

But perhaps some of us just want to believe that we were once monkies, mating without shame while the world watches on and then sleeping in our own waste. Maybe some of us want's to believe the proof for this lies in the fact they their physical appearence is similar to that of a human, and their emotions are similar to that of humanly emotions such as laughter and sadness, thus coming to the 'undeniable' conclusion that he is our dear father and mother.

Not me though. Common sense played a major part in teaching me otherwise :thumbs_up.
Why cannot Christians and Jews use the same argument, there are thousands upon thousands of manuscripts so getting them together would allow reconstruction?

Just as a matter of interest what on earth is the second paragraph about as it does not to me anyway seem to have the remotest connection to the subject of this thread? I also cannot quite fathom why common sense taught you otherwise - if Einstein had relied on common sense we would not have relativity?
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MSalman
08-11-2009, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I have an open mind on the issue
I do not think you are sincere Mr. Hugo (Silver) or whatever title you want to be called by. If you were sincere, I would not have seen same useless debates, dancing around the subject and beating around the bush, from you time and time again. Both you and I know this

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I wonder what honorific I might apply to you - but then I don't resort to spiteful insults do I?
right, so giving kunya is an insult? I wonder according to which dictionary? Actually if you think about it, you should not be ashmed to be compared to Abu Lahab. He rejected Islam so do you. He committed shirk by worshipping idols so do you by calling upon Jesus and making him God. Yet you do not follow him since you reject the Bible and take only that you like. Either that or you think your god did not know the future or was merciless unjust god because he revealed rulings which could only be followed by people at certain period of time. Thus, he abandoned rest of mankind and lead them astray and wonder around.

This is your methodology, let us talk about that and not issues which would make you avoid the core problem.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
do you know who wrote down each and every Qu'ran verse all 6000 or so?
yes we do know. Now, do you know the unknown writers of the Bible? If you knew the authors they would not be unknown now, would they?
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'Abd-al Latif
08-11-2009, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Why cannot Christians and Jews use the same argument, there are thousands upon thousands of manuscripts so getting them together would allow reconstruction?
Because it's impossible for them to do that. There are so many versions of the bible and christians can't even agree on which one to follow. The Qur'an has no versions and the original Qur'an in arabic is memorized letter by letter, dot by dot, by millions of muslims including people on this very forum. You may argue that there are christians who have memorized the bible with which I ask you this; one in how many christians have done this?

As many christian converts to Islam have stated from their own words that the christian scripture is virtually lost. Thus, for christians to agree on one version of the bible is a matter that cannot and will not be solved so no other individual can make this claim and emerge as a winner.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2009, 07:11 PM
Hugo - if you had done any research you would know there are many traditions and they do not all agree. You simply accept this one without question and complain that others do not. In what way is the Bible Questionable since many of the stories are repeated in the Qu'ran so it must be questionnable also? To talk of 'envy' is an absurdity.
Does the hearsay information of these different 'traditions' in fact exist or are all speculatory and courtesy of your chosen 'scholars'
Again, I'd really like to see variations in order for your testimony to hold some weightiness and not always turn up so empty!

Quote:



Hugo - I cannot follow your logic here from my quote and perhaps if you examined the Qu'ran you might notice that Allah can see. Is it wrong to say address God as 'father' or describe God as a might fortress a rock or that he stretches out his hand and so on. I don't think I have attacked Islam but simply asked questions about it and there is a big difference. If you see every criticism or question as an attack that sounds like paranoia - do you see it like that.
In your case, the father apparently begets and is begot and born to a woman, yes it seems rather wrong, as for the 'allegorical' themes in the Quran, are rather well explained.

as per verse 3:7 and commentary:
He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ- as well as others that are allegorical. Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.


According to most of the early commentators, this refers to the interpretation of allegorical passages which deal with metaphysical subjects - for instance, God's attributes, the ultimate meaning of time and eternity, the resurrection of the dead, the Day of Judgment, paradise and hell, the nature of the beings or forces described as angels, and so forth - all of which fall within the category of al-ghayb, i.e., that sector of reality which is beyond the reach of human perception and imagination and cannot, therefore, be conveyed to man in other than allegorical terms. This view of the classical commentators, however, does not seem to take into account the many Qur'anic passages which do not deal with metaphysical subjects and yet are, undoubtedly, allegorical in intent and expression. To my mind, one cannot arrive at a correct understanding of the above passage without paying due attention to the nature and function of allegory as such. A true allegory - in contrast with a mere pictorial paraphrase of something that could equally well be stated in direct terms - is always meant to express in a figurative manner something which, because of its complexity, cannot be adequately expressed in direct terms or propositions and, because of this very complexity, can be grasped only intuitively, as a general mental image, and not as a series of detailed "statements": and this seems to be the meaning of the phrase, "none save God knows its final meaning".


Q


Hugo - you brought this up not me so please answer my questions. Here we have to ask was this done right from the first revelation, day one?
Not only done from day one, but on the year of his death, the messenger was said to recite the Quran in its entirety to Gabriel not once as was done from its revelation but twice. I really don't understand, your incessant need to educe otherwise.




Hugo - let us be clear here, YOU brought up the question regarding authenticity in your post. All I am doing is following it with a question and I have an open mind on the issue. Here your answer must be based on a fallacy of the kind related to falsifiability - I cannot falsify your claim that the author of the Qu'ran is God and you cannot prove it. So we get nowhere in terms of enlightenment.
Sure you can always falsify the claim. Either by bringing the names and dates of those who dictated the Quran to the messenger and account for every last verse, i.e those chapters that held no meaning except to modern times (for instance after the recent find of the lost city of ubar (the people of Aa'd) of whom for the longest time was dubbed as a Quranic fable. The stories of old, current, and future, as was also revealed years apart but put so in the order dictated by Gabriel (the way the verses were revealed) for instance the last two verses which go into the second chapter, or the first which go at the end. You'd need a computer or a filling cabinet and still be prune to major error. We all know that the Messanger died poor with his armor pawned to a Jew, so perhaps also a motive would be great or take the easiest route of all, and bring a forth a sura like it, which was the actual challenge of the Quran for those who have held doubt.
Bring a chapter albeit as long as the shortest one, and have it fulfil the criteria or rhyme, reason, syntax, lyricism and cover every aspect of man's life as such does the Quran, from politics, economics, social structure, inheritance, and spiritual guidance and call upon your own witnsses for comparison!



Answering your last question sis easy, I simply resort to the same fallacy you used "The Bible is from God and you ask "who is the author of the Bible?" Immediately after claiming the you have questioned it's authenticity, as well as asking if we can "authenticate God"! (incidentally do you know who wrote down each and every Qu'ran verse all 6000 or so?)
If God authored your bible, then why is it wrought with error, surely God, can do better, and the better question is, if you know that it is the unerring word of God, then why do you not follow it to a T? after all did he send down his word for mere idol play?

and yes the scribes for the Quran are known and discussed in the book recommended. Go read it!

all the best
Reply

MSalman
08-11-2009, 07:21 PM
:sl:

I cannot believe I missed this

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
if you examined the Qu'ran you might notice that Allah can see
yes, so what? and your point is? So you believe in a God who cannot see? How silly of you to even bring up this argument when you believe that a man, who walked on this earth, ate, slept, etc. was god.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
describe God as a might fortress a rock or that he stretches out his hand and so on.
where did you get this from? Do you know anything about sunni usool reagrding ta'wil, dhahir, tashbeeh, tamtheel, tahreef and haqiqi? If you do not then a good place to start learning is Aqeedah (Islamic Creed)
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Hugo
08-11-2009, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
I do not think you are sincere Mr. Hugo or whatever title you want to be called by. If you were sincere, I would not have seen same useless debates, dancing around the subject and beating around the bush, from you time and time again. Both you and I know this

Hugo - I do not think you are sincere Mr. Islamiclife or whatever title you want to be called by. If you were sincere, I would not have seen same useless debates, dancing around the subject and beating around the bush, from you time and time again. Both you and I know this


right, so giving kunya is an insult? I wonder according to which dictionary? Actually if you think about it, you should not be ashmed to be compared to Abu Lahab. He rejected Islam so do you. He committed shirk by worshipping idols so do you by calling upon Jesus and making him God. Yet you do not follow him since you reject the Bible and take only that you like. Either that or you think your god did not know the future or was merciless unjust god because he revealed rulings which could only be followed by people at certain period of time. Thus, he abandoned rest of mankind and lead them astray and wonder around.

Hugo - how come YOU know so much about me but so little about Christianity. If there is one thing God abhors its is self-righteousness.

This is your methodology, let us talk about that and not issues which would make you avoid the core problem. yes we do know. Now, do you know the unknown writers of the Bible? If you knew the authors they would not be unknown now, would they?
What is my methodology, please explain it as you seem to know everything else. I have said this before but say it again simply assume that God was the author of the Qu'ran, I cannot falsify that claim and you cannot prove it so let stop beating around the bush. I can just as easily say God was the author of the Bible, you cannot falsify it and I cannot prove it.

Sometime when I read this kind of post it seem of no consequence to you what is in the Bible or Qu'ran all your interested in is its transmission.

Let me end by asking a question - do you think there is anything of value in the Bible, if so tell me which part or parts?
Reply

Hugo
08-11-2009, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Because it's impossible for them to do that. There are so many versions of the bible and christians can't even agree on which one to follow. The Qur'an has no versions and the original Qur'an in arabic is memorized letter by letter, dot by dot, by millions of muslims including people on this very forum. You may argue that there are christians who have memorized the bible with which I ask you this; one in how many christians have done this?

As many christian converts to Islam have stated from their own words that the christian scripture is virtually lost. Thus, for christians to agree on one version of the bible is a matter that cannot and will not be solved so no other individual can make this claim and emerge as a winner.
Why it is impossible? Do you mean by versions, translations?

If the Qu'ran has not a single error anywhere (though Dr Azami's book does not say this) it does not mean it is God word does it, it is not proof is it?
Reply

Hugo
08-11-2009, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
:sl:

yes, so what? and your point is? So you believe in a God who cannot see? How silly of you to even bring up this argument when you believe that a man, who walked on this earth, ate, slept, etc. was god.

where did you get this from? Do you know anything about sunni usool reagrding ta'wil, dhahir, tashbeeh, tamtheel, tahreef and haqiqi? If you do not then a good place to start learning is Aqeedah (Islamic Creed)
[B]My quotes were obviously Biblical ones so this has zero relevance. If its about what we believe and a matter of swapping stories, do you believe that Prophet Mohammed's heart was extracted and washed with snow? Do you believe that someone could die for a 100 years and when he woke up he found this moth eared book etc etc. Is there a literal bridge one has to cross at the end of life, is heaven full of sofas etc?.

This is worthless discussion
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-11-2009, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Why it is impossible? Do you mean by versions, translations?

If the Qu'ran has not a single error anywhere (though Dr Azami's book does not say this) it does not mean it is God word does it, it is not proof is it?
A book without mistakes means it could have only come from a divine source making it impossible to be written by man. If you notice in the beginning of every book the author states his or her short comings and mistakes, an admition to his imperfection though he did his best when writing it. Comparing this to the Qur'an the first verse in the second chapter of the Qur'an states "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). " meaning this is a book that contains not a single mistake as it contains guidance for mankind and no other source except the divine can admit to this. For one to walk on the straight path he must have a firm conviction that this path has no doubt or crookedness to it and the Qur'an contains clear signs concerning this.

And i'm sorry I haven't been following this thread so I don't know what Dr Azami's book says.
Reply

MSalman
08-11-2009, 09:01 PM
@hugo

and here I thought you were mocking me when I stated that you dance around the issue. But how sad I was wrong yet again, you in fact do dance around the issue.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
My quotes were obviously Biblical ones so this has zero relevance. If its about what we believe and a matter of swapping stories
It is not about sawaping stories, it is about exposing your double standards time and time again. How many times have we done this on Islamic-Life forums? Whether its Christianity or secularism, you always resort two faced hypocrite methodology. But what can you do, that is all what you got: inconsistent self contradictory doctrine.

You find our beliefs to be problematic but at the same time you believe in worst or same things. The example was clearly presented earlier: you think it is somehow problematic to believe that Allah can see but then you have no issue believing and propagating that a man was god. So instead of tackling the response, what did you do: brought more stuff to further expose your double standards

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
do you believe that Prophet Mohammed's heart was extracted and washed with snow? Do you believe that someone could die for a 100 years and when he woke up he found this moth eared book etc etc. Is there a literal bridge one has to cross at the end of life, is heaven full of sofas etc?.
off course, we believe in that. We believe in the miracles and everything that which is relayed to us authentically and maybe you do not believe in miracles despite claiming to be a christian. This is typical double standards of Chrisitan missionaries. They would attack Islam and the Qur'an for strange miraculous events even when they believe that Jesus raised people from dead and walked on water, etc. Have anyone seen a man walking on water lately? Have you seen any Muslim attacking this belife of yours? But why do you do the same: simple because your batil ideas are based upon inconsistent self contradictory doctrine

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
This is worthless discussion
yet you bring it up. How strange, isn't? and then you ask me why I question your sincerity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
What is my methodology, please explain it as you seem to know everything else.
already discussed many time on other forum

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Sometime when I read this kind of post it seem of no consequence to you what is in the Bible or Qu'ran all your interested in is its transmission.
lol, you are clearly lost. when we talk about authenticity and preservation then we are talking about the transmission and whether the content is intact. We are not talking about the content itself. You in fact have discussed the same thing throughout this thread and yet you bring this up. Also are you the same guy who just said:
If the Qu'ran has not a single error anywhere (though Dr Azami's book does not say this) it does not mean it is God word does it, it is not proof is it?
So really, where are we going with this?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Let me end by asking a question - do you think there is anything of value in the Bible, if so tell me which part or parts?
off-topic - what relevancy this have to our question about unknown biblical authors. Why are you changing the topic? Plus, how many times I have clarified and discussed this at Islamic-Life forums with you

I will add the rest later, g2g
Reply

Hugo
08-11-2009, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Does the hearsay information of these different 'traditions' in fact exist or are all speculatory and courtesy of your chosen 'scholars' Again, I'd really like to see variations in order for your testimony to hold some weightiness and not always turn up so empty!

Hugo - just want an answer from you - are you saying there is only ONE tradition about the preservation of the Qu'ran?

In your case, the father apparently begets and is begot and born to a woman, yes it seems rather wrong, as for the 'allegorical' themes in the Quran, are rather well explained.

Not only done from day one, but on the year of his death, the messenger was said to recite the Quran in its entirety to Gabriel not once as was done from its revelation but twice. I really don't understand, your incessant need to educe otherwise.

Hugo - if this is what you believe then I have no comment but belief is not fact is it. My issue I suppose is that if its a Muslim tradition you have no difficulty taking it as absolute fact without criticism or question yet when others do it in their faith it's an absurdity.

Sure you can always falsify the claim. Either by bringing the names and dates of those who dictated the Quran to the messenger and account for every last verse, i.e those chapters that held no meaning except to modern times (for instance after the recent find of the lost city of ubar (the people of Aa'd) of whom for the longest time was dubbed as a Quranic fable. The stories of old, current, and future, as was also revealed years apart but put so in the order dictated by Gabriel (the way the verses were revealed) for instance the last two verses which go into the second chapter, or the first which go at the end. You'd need a computer or a filling cabinet and still be prune to major error. We all know that the Messanger died poor with his armor pawned to a Jew, so perhaps also a motive would be great or take the easiest route of all, and bring a forth a sura like it, which was the actual challenge of the Quran for those who have held doubt.

Hugo - I think if you read my post you would have seen that with regard to falisfication I was talking of the supposition that author of the Qu'ran being God.

Bring a chapter albeit as long as the shortest one, and have it fulfil the criteria or rhyme, reason, syntax, lyricism and cover every aspect of man's life as such does the Quran, from politics, economics, social structure, inheritance, and spiritual guidance and call upon your own witnsses for comparison!

Hugo - I assume you are not suggesting the preposteraous idea that every verses or even every chapter has all these things?

If God authored your bible, then why is it wrought with error, surely God, can do better, and the better question is, if you know that it is the unerring word of God, then why do you not follow it to a T? after all did he send down his word for mere idol play?

and yes the scribes for the Quran are known and discussed in the book recommended. Go read it!all the best
1. I assume that that above para in red is a challenge so I submit Psalm 8 (NIV) A psalm of David for starters, this one is just a hymn of praise can you produce one like it and this is vastly more useful if we share don't you think?

1 O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens.
2 From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise because of your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.
3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,
4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?
5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet:
7 all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field,
8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!

2. Where is the Bible full of errors; ever page every verse, no one but a biased individual could think that? Its moral truths for example are the same as yours unless you don't subscribe to the 10 Commandments. There are no moral truths in the Qu'ran that one cannot find elsewhere.

Do you follow the Qu'ran to the 'T', if so why don't you use cotton threads to mark the end and beginning of a day during ramadan, why is it if the Qu'ran is complete do you need the Sunna et etc?

These are pointless arguments and what we are about as believers is loving God and striving for good.
Reply

Hugo
08-11-2009, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
A book without mistakes means it could have only come from a divine source making it impossible to be written by man. If you notice in the beginning of every book the author states his or her short comings and mistakes, an admition to his imperfection though he did his best when writing it. Comparing this to the Qur'an the first verse in the second chapter of the Qur'an states "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). " meaning this is a book that contains not a single mistake as it contains guidance for mankind and no other source except the divine can admit to this. For one to walk on the straight path he must have a firm conviction that this path has no doubt or crookedness to it and the Qur'an contains clear signs concerning this.

And i'm sorry I haven't been following this thread so I don't know what Dr Azami's book says.
It is not necessary to refute such an obviously erroneous idea as stated in bold above. Such an argument is fallacious because I cannot falsify your claim of divine origin and you cannot prove it.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2009, 10:02 PM

Hugo - just want an answer from you - are you saying there is only ONE tradition about the preservation of the Qu'ran?
What is your definition of 'Tradition' as per regard to the Quran?


Hugo - if this is what you believe then I have no comment but belief is not fact is it. My issue I suppose is that if its a Muslim tradition you have no difficulty taking it as absolute fact without criticism or question yet when others do it in their faith it's an absurdity.
Facts are judged by the end product. I don't need to see the bees to know that they are what is responsible for the honey on my table. In such a case the Quran is the final product of said events. And its nature is so that no other work in history dares to be a contender!
as for your criticism, it would be welcome if it weren't so absurd.. the absurdity comes from the fact that you are not familiar with Islam yet engage in very minute detail , I hazard ask, on what you've built your criticism?



Hugo - I assume you are not suggesting the preposteraous idea that every verses or even every chapter has all these things?
The challenge is to bring a sura.. can you differentiate between chapter and verse?


1. I assume that that above para in red is a challenge so I submit Psalm 8 (NIV) A psalm of David for starters, this one is just a hymn of praise can you produce one like it and this is vastly more useful if we share don't you think?

1 O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens.
2 From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise because of your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger.
3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,
4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?
5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet:
7 all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field,
8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!
From my catholic school days, I remember the teacher after a very charged reading of the Psalms, asking the ladies to go read the bible for its explicit and erotic sexual contents: as such and let me quote



  1. Proverbs
  2. "Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times." 5:18
  3. "Come let us take our fill of love until the morning." 7:18
  4. One of the four "wonderful" things is "the way of a man with a maid." 30:18-19 Ecclesiastes (None)
    Song of Solomon
  5. "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine." . 1:2
  6. "He shall lie all night betwixt my breasts." 1:13
  7. "I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste." 2:3
  8. "His left hand is under my head and his right hand doth embrace me." She asks not to be disturbed "till he please." 2:6-7
  9. Our heroine takes her lover into her mother's bedroom and asks not to be disturbed "till he please." 3:4-5
  10. "Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins." 4:5
  11. "Come ... blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits." 4:16
  12. "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him." 5:4
  13. "My hands dropped with myrrh.... I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself." 5:5-6
  14. "Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins." 7:1-3
  15. "How pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! ... Thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine." 7:6-8
  16. "Let us get up early to the vineyards ... there will I give thee my loves." 7:12
  17. "His left hand should be under my head, and his right hand should embrace me.... Stir not up, nor awake my love, until he please." 8:3-4
  18. "We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts ... But my breasts [are] like towers." 8:8-10


I don't know, you tell me, is this a book of guidance that you absolutely believe came from God, given the above perversity? I believe God is exalted above what is written in your book, from Lut fornicating with his two daughters to sisters comparing breasts or lack thereof!
2. Where is the Bible full of errors; ever page every verse, no one but a biased individual could think that? Its moral truths for example are the same as yours unless you don't subscribe to the 10 Commandments. There are no moral truths in the Qu'ran that one cannot find elsewhere.
I haven't come across verses in the Quran that read like the above. as for the errors, well, I think I'll leave that one to centuries of dark ages and persecution of scientists (such as Galileo) as a response.. Moral truths are a universal thing, then why should one subscribe to one religion and not the other since they all come bearing the same message-- obviousely something has to set itself apart from the rest!
Do you follow the Qu'ran to the 'T', if so why don't you use cotton threads to mark the end and beginning of a day during ramadan, why is it if the Qu'ran is complete do you need the Sunna et etc?
I am not familiar with cotton threads, thus I have no idea what that means or what it denotes.. I can tell however, that you are not familiar from the above comment (with whatever is meant) in the difference between fiqh il3ibidat, anf fiqh al'mo3amalat'
familiarize yourself with the differences, if your orientalists haven't taught you about them, I'd be glad to clarify. The Quran also tell us to follow the tradition of the prophet for what is the point of God sending a book without a teacher? Do pls contrast that with Jesus' disciples of whom Peter (the rock) denounced Jesus thrice before he was to be crucified.. can we say confused at best? These are the 'disciples' that allegedly your God has left behind for guidance after his death!
If God tells us to pray in the books yet fails to give us a teacher, well we might indeed end up dancing and clapping in God's house to the organ rather than going about it, in the manner of God's choosing!

These are pointless arguments and what we are about as believers is loving God and striving for good.
I noticed that the thread was started by you, if you now concede the worthlesness of the thread, I can be game with that..

all the best!
Reply

Hugo
08-11-2009, 10:24 PM
We seem to have got a little sidetracked so I will summarise. My postings have been about Azami's book "The History of the Qu'ranic texts..". In my view the book is weak because Azami is biased and careless. Here are sime points before I move on.

Azami sets out discuss the Qu'ran and its preservation. I have no issues with such an aim because such a book is a very useful contribution to the literature. My first point was about his inclusion of a commentary on Biblical transmission as a comparison and I can see no value in that as it has nothing to do with whether the transmission of the Qu'ran is authentic or not.

However, one might do such a thing since the Bible and Qu'ran cover much of the same material, the Bible since it is older might add weight to the claim of authenticity for the Qu'ran. One might also do it as a kind of question; which would you choose as the most authentic, most trustworthy book. However, Azami says he has done it to give the reader insights into the disparity of opinions between Muslim and Orientalist Scholars but seem to equate Orientalist scholar with Biblical Scholars but I will come back to that later.

According to Dr Azami his book is 1/3 about the Bible and 2/3 about the Qu'ran (page xv) so the title is a little misleading. Let us look at some example which to my mind show poor scholarship or bias.

1. Page xvi and xvii Azami) writes: “.. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...”. citing as a source Bruce Metzger who wrote “This is one of the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel... “.

Why does Azami leave out the word "one" which in this context is critical to understanding, frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT text are 10th century or later.

2. Bottom of Page xvii Dr Azami says "The only known facts are that the OT books appeared on the scene only to disappear promptly for a few hundred years, before abruptly resurfacing. Again they disappeared without trace for many centuries, and were once again suddenly recovered."
Ignoring the impossibility of these being the 'only' known facts, Dr Azami at this point gives a ref to 2 Kings 14-16 (meaning chapters 14 to 16?). One supposes that these chapters would confirm his 'known facts' but the chapters list the names together with tiny biographies of Kings for the two Jewish kingdoms: Israel and Judah spanning about 200 years. In this list of kings There is one ref to the Torah in 2 Kings 14:6 and a very oblique one in verse 14 to the temple being robbed (where a copy was kept) and several refs to the Book of The Chronicles of the Kings. Hardly conclusive is it?

The OT has 24 books in the Hebrew Bible but if divided slightly differently we arrive at the usual number of 39 books. So when Dr Azami talks of “OT books” is saying here that all 39 books disappeared and then miraculously all 39 reappeared and this happened twice. Is he careless here or simply does not know his facts either way it’s not a good sign is it or careful scholarship?

3. On page xx he says “.. non Muslim sources however, some of whom feel no hesitation in referring to their own Lord Jesus Christ as an adulterer or a homosexual, to David as an adulterous schemer, or to Solomon as an idolater”.

This is a misleading idea because nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus was an adulterer or homosexual but it does say the other two things. So here he is either muddled or ignorant of simple facts and sources. Muslims might believe in the purity of the prophets but the Bible records Noah as getting drunk, Lot as sleeping with his daughters, Joseph as being drunk with his brothers, Abraham as a liar, Sarah as a spiteful vindictive women, Moses as trying to take the place of God and so on. Why does it do this is if it’s not true, what crazy redactor would leave all that in so here we have deliberate confusion over ‘non-Muslim sources' and a denial of what must be the truth.

4. On page xxi he speaks of a ‘most accurate Qu’ran in the world’ so there must be inaccurate ones and hence inaccurate manuscript and never quite explains how he knows it is the most accurate.

Hope that is fair summary and shows Azami as careless or unreliable from a scholarly point of view right at the start of his book. I hope in the next few days to move to later chapters.

Refs:
Al-Azamiv, M. M., (2003), The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, ISBN 1-872531-65-2

Metzger, B. M., (1968), The Text of the New Testament, OUP, ISBN

(note Dr Azami quotes from Metzger's 3rd edition but the second is more readily available and the pages in question are identical)
Reply

GreyKode
08-11-2009, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
[I]

I am not familiar with cotton threads, thus I have no idea what that means or what it denotes.. I can tell however, that you are not familiar from the above comment (with whatever is meant) in the difference between fiqh
all the best!
I think he means

"7atta yatbayyun al khayt al abyad men al khayt al aswad men al Fajr"

He thinks this should be taken literally.^o)
Reply

جوري
08-11-2009, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
I think he means

"7atta yatbayyun al khayt al abyad men al khayt al aswad men al Fajr"

He thinks this should be taken literally.^o)
oh I see.. I guess it doesn't matter that I have quoted chapter 3 verse 7 about three to four times on this thread.. I really don't think he reads any replies here, given the repetition of the same resolved points with each thread.. it is tedious!
Reply

جوري
08-11-2009, 10:48 PM
I am amused by why you rehash the same points that have already gone answered? Pls tell me, is this some sort of one person soliloquy just so we could save our time and web space!


format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
We seem to have got a little sidetracked so I will summarise. My postings have been about Azami's book "The History of the Qu'ranic texts..". In my view the book is weak because Azami is biased and careless. Here are sime points before I move on.
Azami sets out discuss the Qu'ran and its preservation. I have no issues with such an aim because such a book is a very useful contribution to the literature. My first point was about his inclusion of a commentary on Biblical transmission as a comparison and I can see no value in that as it has nothing to do with whether the transmission of the Qu'ran is authentic or not.
answered here:

Gossamer Skye: The idea of authoring a book about the preservation of the Quran, about its collection and immaculate preservation, had long germinated my mind and approximately three and a half years ago I finally began working on this book along side another entitled Islamic studies: What methodology? It was journalist Toby Lester's article in the Atlantic Monthly (jan 1999) however and the chaos it had the potential to sow amongst Muslims, which prompted a greater concentration on this work. His article suggested that Muslims, despite believing the Quran as the unadulterated Book of Allah, were thoroughly incapable of defending their views in a scholarly fashion.. The gauntlet was thrown and I felt it necessary to take on this challenge and explain the stringent methodology used by early Muslim scholars in accepting a text as genuine or rejecting it as fake. This has lead to the unavoidable repetition of some material in both books. As most of the scholars that lester quotes are either jews or Christians. I also considered it fitting to cover the histories of the old and New testament by way of comparison.
I think his intentions are quite defined and no where in those words have I read 2/3 OT/NT or that the veracity of the Quran rests on the falsehood of the bible.. it is but an excellent side by side comparison and a direct result to an blatant offense, which he accepted and challenged in return!
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...y-quran-7.html

However, one might do such a thing since the Bible and Qu'ran cover much of the same material, the Bible since it is older might add weight to the claim of authenticity for the Qu'ran. One might also do it as a kind of question; which would you choose as the most authentic, most trustworthy book. However, Azami says he has done it to give the reader insights into the disparity of opinions between Muslim and Orientalist Scholars but seem to equate Orientalist scholar with Biblical Scholars but I will come back to that later.
Being older adds no weight least of which to sustain itself and I have quoted quite extensively on this very thread on the very questionable nature of many biblical passages.
and you should indeed come back to your latter point later as I am not following. Indeed many orientalists covered in his book are missionaries with an agenda (really not unlike your person)
According to Dr Azami his book is 1/3 about the Bible and 2/3 about the Qu'ran (page xv) so the title is a little misleading. Let us look at some example which to my mind show poor scholarship or bias.
Again, covered here, although I am glad you fixed your own short coming on the matter:
. BTW as an addendum to the above and refresher.. does everyone else see:
A comparative study with the old and New testament right on the cover?



he has already listed the reasons for writing the book, so I really don't want hammered in over and over this moot point:

Originally Posted by Hugo (Authenticity of the Qur'an)


-- According to Dr Azami the book is 2/3 about the Bible and 1/3 about the Qu'ran so the title is a little misleading. His premise seems to be that Qu'ran is authentic because the Bible is not. But let me give one example just from the preface and perhaps someone can shed light on it.
Again, I pose the Question, do others on this thread see what it says right on the cover? is anyone here fooled by '' A comparative study with the old and new testament''?



1. Page xvi and xvii Azami) writes: “.. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...”. citing as a source Bruce Metzger who wrote “This is one of the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel... “.

Why does Azami leave out the word "one" which in this context is critical to understanding, frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT text are 10th century or later.
covered here:
Gossamer Skye Not a single book from the NT has survived in the original author's handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18 (footnote) Here I must interject that this date is pure guesswork, a subjective enterprise that can occasionally run with a marginal difference of decades to centuries. Among the earliest Greek manuscript of the N.T to actually bear a date is one written in the year of the world 6457 (i.e 949. C.E) Vatican library No. 345. Notice that the the manuscript does not contain any christian date, because the Anno Domini 'year of the Lord' calendar system had yet to be invented. See also this work pp 238-39, where Leningrad Codex mentions a slew of dates, none of them christian. This reveals that until the 11th C C.E (if not beyond) no christian calendar system existed or at least was not in use]
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...y-quran-8.html

2. Bottom of Page xvii Dr Azami says "The only known facts are that the OT books appeared on the scene only to disappear promptly for a few hundred years, before abruptly resurfacing. Again they disappeared without trace for many centuries, and were once again suddenly recovered."
Ignoring the impossibility of these being the 'only' known facts, Dr Azami at this point gives a ref to 2 Kings 14-16 (meaning chapters 14 to 16?). One supposes that these chapters would confirm his 'known facts' but the chapters list the names together with tiny biographies of Kings for the two Jewish kingdoms: Israel and Judah spanning about 200 years. In this list of kings There is one ref to the Torah in 2 Kings 14:6 and a very oblique one in verse 14 to the temple being robbed (where a copy was kept) and several refs to the Book of The Chronicles of the Kings. Hardly conclusive is it?
Covered here:
Gossamer Skye : I am at a loss at to why this is a difficult point -- you may actually use google the search feature and you'll get youtube vids by Jews speaking of the law of Moses being lost-- is it a matter of reference of vexation of bringing such a known point to the light?

The logical thing you can do in said case if you believe otherwise is provide evidence to the contrary? Dr. Al-Azami in this book in fact into quite the details of the names of those who held early manuscripts of the Quran, the hafiths, and the transmitters and from whose original copies, who had what and who was killed for what and where it was dissminated, how about instead of criticizing where there are no real perceived flaws to the rest of us, you do exactly what he has done for the OT, show us the not so lost books where they were kept, who had copies, the names of those who held copies. If it is merely disbelief, then you should replace it with factual evidence, not mere expression of dismay!
The OT has 24 books in the Hebrew Bible but if divided slightly differently we arrive at the usual number of 39 books. So when Dr Azami talks of “OT books” is saying here that all 39 books disappeared and then miraculously all 39 reappeared and this happened twice. Is he careless here or simply does not know his facts either way it’s not a good sign is it or careful scholarship?
Covered and corroborated here:
Gossamer Skye: Please reference me to exactly where he wrote miraculously ALL 39 books disappeared then re-appeared as well do me the kind pleasure of pointing where they were preserved meanwhile i.e the names of their preservers (it is only fair since he does go into that detail with the Islamic text) if we are to have integrity in the side by side comparison.. before re-discovery whether by prophet Uzair or some other method ... you'll forgive me of course, not only do you have a habit of insetting text and your desired conclusions, leading me to refuse to take what you write at face value, and I have consistently exposed you to the readers here!

nonetheless, please allow me to corroborate the writing of Dr. Al-Azami with one of many sources on the web:
Missing books of the OT:
1. The Book of the Wars of the Lord(Sepher Milkhamot Adonai)
“Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the LORD, “Waheb in Suphah, And the wadis of the Arnon,” (Numbers 21:14)
Timothy R. Ashley says:
“14-15 A citation from a source called the Book of Wars of Yahweh supports the claim made in v. 13. The exact nature of this work is “unknown”, since the only fragment of it is the poetry cited in vv. 14-15, unless the poem in vv. 17-18a is also from it. The title of the work suggests that it contained songs celebrating Yahweh’s victories against his enemies.” [1]
Matthew Henry says:
“we are not particularly told, but are referred to the book of the wars of the Lord, perhaps that book which was begun with the history of the war with the Amalekites, Ex. 17:14. Write it (said God) for a memorial in a book[2] (emphasis added)
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary says:
book of the wars of the Lord–A fragment or passage is here quoted from a poem or history of the wars of the Israelites, principally with a view to decide the position of Arnon.” [3]
John Gill’s Exposition on the Bible:
“Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the Lord,…. A history of wars in former times” [4]
The author of Izhar Al-Haq quotes the commentators Henry and Scott:
“Presumably this book was written by Moses for the guidance of Joshua and described the demacration of the land of Moab.” [5]
2.The Book of Jasher(Sepher Ha Yashar)
“So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.” (Joshua 10:13)
“and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the book of Jashar.”(2 Samuel 1:18)
Gnana Robinson comments on 2 Samuel 1:18,
” “It is written in the Book of Jashar,” literally “the Book of the Upright”. Another poetical piece attributed to the book of this name is Josh. 10:12-14.” Similar literary collections of various sorts seem to have been circulating among the people (e.g. the Book of the Wars of Yahweh, Num. 2:14); this shows that the collection of poems was made well before Samuel was edited and written.” [6]
Rev. Prof. Herbert G. May remarks,
“The Deuteronomist makes the poem the words of Joshua, but the poem itself is non-committal as to the speaker. The Book of Jasher is also quoted in 2 Sam. 1:18, and in the LXX of 1 Kg. 8:53. It was apparently a collection of poems. Compare the Book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14).” [7]
Concerning Joshua 10:13 Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary says:
“The passage, which is parenthetical, contains a poetical description of the victory which was miraculously gained by the help of God, and forms an extract from “the book of Jasher,” that is, “the upright”–an anthology, or collection of national songs, in honor of renowned and eminently pious heroes.” [8]
John Gill’s Exposition on 2nd Samuel 1:18:
“behold, it is written in book of Jasher); which the Targum calls the book of the law; and Jarchi and Ben Gersom restrain it to the book of Genesis, the book of the upright, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and suppose respect is had to the prophecy concerning Judah, Genesis 49:8, but Kimchi, extending it to all the five books of Moses, adds his blessing, in Deuteronomy 33:7. In the Arabic version it is explained of the book of Samuel, interpreted the book of songs, as if it was a collection of songs; which favours the above sense. Jerom {s} interprets it of the same book, the book of the righteous prophets, Samuel, Gad, and Nathan…” [9] (emphasis added)
Lost proverbs of Solomon
“He also spoke 3,000 proverbs, and his songs were 1,005.”(1 Kings 4:32)
John Gill’s Exposition:
And he spake three thousand proverbs,…. Wise sayings, short and pithy sentences, instructive in morality and civil life; these were not written as the book of Proverbs, but spoken only, and were taken from his lips, and spread by those that heard them for the use of others, but in process of time were lost…” [10] (emphasis added)
On the verse the Methodist theologian Adam Clarke explains:
“He spake three thousand proverbs] The book of Proverbs, attributed to Solomon, contain only about nine hundred or nine hundred and twenty-three distinct proverbs; and if we grant with some that the first nine chapters are not the work of Solomon, then all that can be attributed to him is only about six hundred and fifty.
Of all his one thousand and five songs or poems we have only one, the book of Canticles, remaining, unless we include Psalm cxxvii. 1-5, Except the Lord build the house, &c., which in the title is said to be by or for him, though it appears more properly to be a psalm of direction, left him by his father David, relative to the building of the temple. “
He laments in his notes on verse 33:
“O, how must the heart of Tournefort, Ray, Linne, Buffon, Cuvier, Swammerdam, Blosch, and other naturalists, be wrung, to know that these works of Solomon are all and for ever lost! What light should we have thrown on the animal and vegetable kingdoms, had these works been preserved![11] (emphasis added)

The Books of Samuel the Seer, the Prophet Nathan and Gad the Seer
“Now the acts of king David first and last are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer:” (1 Chronicles 29:29)
All of the books mentioned in the verse have all DISAPPEARED.
Adam Clarke says,
” The acts of David-first and last] Those which concerned him in private life, as well as those which grew out of his regal government. All these were written by three eminent men, personally acquainted with him through the principal part of his life; these were Samuel and Gad the seers, and Nathan the prophet. These writings are all lost, except the particulars interspersed in the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, none of which are the records mentioned here.” [12]
The Book of Isaiah the Prophet
This is yet another book which is totally LOST. It so happens that it was written by the major Old Testament prophet, Isaiah.
“Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first to last, the prophet Isaiah, the son of Amoz, has written.” (2 Chronicles 26:22)
Adam Clark says,
“The rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet-write.] This work, however, is totally lost; for we have not any history of this king in the writings of Isaiah. He is barely mentioned, Isa. i. 1; vi. 1. ” [13] (emphasis added)
John Gill says,
“Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last,…. What were done by him, both in the beginning and latter end of his reign:
did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write: not in his own prophecy, but in the history of his own times, which was usual for every prophet to write, though now lost, see 2 Kings 15:6.” [14] (emphasis added)
References:
[1] Timothy R. Ashley. The Book of Numbers. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 411
[5] Izhar Al- Haq. p. 166
[6] Gnana Robinson. 1 & 2 Samuel, Internationl Theological Commentary(1993). William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company and The Handsel Press Limited. p. 157
[7] H. G. May. Peake’s Commentary on the Bible. Joshua(1962). Routledge. p. 297
[12]http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke1chr29.htm
3. On page xx he says “.. non Muslim sources however, some of whom feel no hesitation in referring to their own Lord Jesus Christ as an adulterer or a homosexual, to David as an adulterous schemer, or to Solomon as an idolater”.

This is a misleading idea because nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus was an adulterer or homosexual but it does say the other two things. So here he is either muddled or ignorant of simple facts and sources. Muslims might believe in the purity of the prophets but the Bible records Noah as getting drunk, Lot as sleeping with his daughters, Joseph as being drunk with his brothers, Abraham as a liar, Sarah as a spiteful vindictive women, Moses as trying to take the place of God and so on. Why does it do this is if it’s not true, what crazy redactor would leave all that in so here we have deliberate confusion over ‘non-Muslim sources' and a denial of what must be the truth.
covered by me here also by me from a different thread:

Gossamer Skye: are Lutherans considered part of the protestant church?
Martin Luther made Jesus into 'thrice' the adulterer

Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: "Whatever has he been doing with her?" Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died. (D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 - May 1, 1532, p. 33)



This is to be found in Luther's Table-Talk (Weimar edition, vol. ii, page 107) . . . Here is the original: --
Christus adulter. Christus ist am ersten ein ebrecher worden Joh. 4, bei dem brunn cum muliere, quia illi dicebant: Nemo significat, quid facit cum ea? Item cum Magdalena, item cum adultera Joan. 8, die er so leicht davon lies. Also mus der from Christus auch am ersten ein ebrecher werden ehe er starb.
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1176023


4. On page xxi he speaks of a ‘most accurate Qu’ran in the world’ so there must be inaccurate ones and hence inaccurate manuscript and never quite explains how he knows it is the most accurate.
covered here:
No, Only you are supposing that the others are false because oh it would be so delightful, the Medinah Mus'haf if you have bothered with a two second research you'd have come up with:

http://www.iqrashop.com/product_info...n&currency=GBP

and let me quote since the page won't allow for a cut and paste:


''However, authors and publishers have not been able to include the Qur'anic verses in documents and personal writings, except in normal fonts, which lack many of the aesthetic aspects that the Uthmanic calligraphy has. This has resulted in some instances of text distortions, confusion of reading or drops of certain items.''

To expound on that you'd have to know something about rules of reading the Quran, such as the use of idgham, iqlab, ith'har' in tajweed idgham and the rest each have a subset in 7iroof matmathleen, or 7iroof motqarbeen or 7iroof mot3abadeen etc e.x can only be given in Arabic as these are rules of grammar but for those Arabic speakers interested in further investigation:

نواع ادغام

ادغام از نظر مدغم و مدغم فیه، در روایت حفص از عاصم بر سه قسم است:

ادغام متامثلین

دو حرف مثل هم (متماثل) بلا استثناء در یکدیگر ادغام می شوند و کافی است که حرف اول ساکن باشد.
مثال

قُلْ لِمَنْ
لَهُمْ مُوسَی

اِضْرِبْ بِعَصَاکَ

رَبِحَتْ تِجَارَتُهُمْ

اَوْ وَزَنُوا

یدْرِکْکُم النساء 78

ادغام متجانسین

این ادغام فقط در موارد زیر انجام می شود:


  1. باء ساکن در میم مثل اِرْکَبْ مَعَنَا که در قرآن فقط همین مورد و در سوره هود علیه*السلام آمده است.
  2. (ت- د- ط) دو به دو با یکدیگر. مثل

اَحَطْتُ نمل آیه 22 ادغام ناقص
هَمَّتْ طَائِفَةٌ
قَدْتبَینَ


  1. (ث- ذ- ظ) دو به دو با یکدیگر. مثل

یلْهَثْ ذَلِکَ
اِذْ ظَلَمْتُمْ زخرف آیه 39
عَبَدْتَ
http://daneshnameh.roshd.ir/mavara/m...e=Check&Rand=0


this is a topic completely expansive and over your head, that I have no desire to discuss it here in any detail given your pedantry. But the parsing of letters dictates the speech and that certainly can be lost to people who don't understand the rules of grammar and thus tashkeel saves them the principal conditions behind it. They can read like the pro without being pros!




and yes of course the originals exist you can see them in the book or on line
.. one I have personally seen in Egypt.. you are simply not allowed to browse every page. You look at whatever is on display!
<imaged removed by moderator>.

I have already gone extensively as well so did Dr. Al-Azami and actually is right on the cover of the book itself, that it doesn't matter the calligraphy, the dotting or the parsing. It is read in the exact same manner.. The recitations stylistically can differ as we have Quran Majwad, or moratal. as well we also have different styles of writing in Arabic:
riq3a, naskh, Thuluth, farsi, kufi and amazingly able to read them all just the same!
please allow me demonstrate:

<imaged removed by moderator>la yazhal almr'r 3aliman ma talab al3ilm, fa'izha athann anaho qad 3alim faqd jahal (the above is a proverb is riq3a)

easy to read as is,
<imaged removed by moderator>wa3ad Allah Alzheena amano wa'3amilo as'sali7at ...

this is the actual page by the way as you can see the calligrapher didn't leave meaning of the traditionally written text for me to decode it.
http://www.almajara.com/photos/detai...6b9d94d1491c2d

as well I can read this: <imaged removed by moderator> وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا يَغْشَى {1}
وَالنَّهَارِ إِذَا تَجَلَّى {2}
وَمَا خَلَقَ الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَى {3}
إِنَّ سَعْيَكُمْ لَشَتَّى {4}
Wa'lyel izha yagh'sha, wa'nahar izha tajala, wama khlaqa Alzhakara wa'lontha, inna sa3yokoum lashata



and this

la illah illah Allah, Mohammed rasool Allah

and the more common traditional naskh

<imaged removed by moderator>min suret al'an3am al7mdllillah alzhi khalaq as'samwat w'alard, waja3ala athulmat wa'noor.




Now you tell me honesty If there were such a thing as an 'original bible' from the mouth of Jesus in such ancient text, or different shattered handwriting, would you be able to read it as I have just done with this level of confidence and fluidity?

examples of different recitations of the same surah mortal or mojwad you'll notice the 'tempo' of the first as such the entire surah is finished in 6 minutes and read differently than the second which at 8 minutes isn't half way through.. to the ignorant they can appear very different, but to the erudite they are but different styles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFeMUVEGNGY
___________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqsVC...eature=related


The Quran IS the unadulterated word of God and so it shall remain by his will!

all the best![/QUOTE]



Hope that is fair summary and shows Azami as careless or unreliable from a scholarly point of view right at the start of his book. I hope in the next few days to move to later chapters.

Refs:
Al-Azamiv, M. M., (2003), The History of the Quranic Text, UK Islamic Academy, ISBN 1-872531-65-2

Metzger, B. M., (1968), The Text of the New Testament, OUP, ISBN

(note Dr Azami quotes from Metzger's 3rd edition but the second is more readily available and the pages in question are identical)
No, it has been fair in showing a few things about you though!

all the best
Reply

czgibson
08-11-2009, 10:49 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer Skye
Moral truths are a universal thing, then why should one subscribe to one religion and not the other since they all come bearing the same message-- obviousely something has to set itself apart from the rest!
Agreed! :D

Peace
Reply

Hugo
08-11-2009, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

Quote Hugo - just want an answer from you - are you saying there is only ONE tradition about the preservation of the Qu'ran?
What is your definition of 'Tradition' as per regard to the Quran?

Hugo - I think you are just avoiding the question.

Facts are judged by the end product. I don't need to see the bees to know that they are what is responsible for the honey on my table. In such a case the Quran is the final product of said events. And its nature is so that no other work in history dares to be a contender! As for your criticism, it would be welcome if it weren't so absurd.. the absurdity comes from the fact that you are not familiar with Islam yet engage in very minute detail , I hazard ask, on what you've built your criticism?

Hugo - what can it mean to judge a fact by the end product, is not a fact the end product? I don't think you know what a 'fact is'. Of course there are contenders. Let's say poetry - are you seriously saying there is no poetry better that that found in the Qu'ran and if so show it to be so.

I don't know, you tell me, is this a book of guidance that you absolutely believe came from God, given the above perversity? I believe God is exalted above what is written in your book, from Lut fornicating with his two daughters to sisters comparing breasts or lack thereof!

Hugo - two things, but if you look around you will find Islamic sites that try to show that Prophet Mohammed is mentioned in the Song of Solomon. However, to get to the points, you were supposed to bring something from then Qu'ran comparable to Psalm 8, you issued the challenge and failed.

2. Where is the Bible full of errors; ever page every verse, no one but a biased individual could think that? Its moral truths for example are the same as yours unless you don't subscribe to the 10 Commandments. There are no moral truths in the Qu'ran that one cannot find elsewhere.

I haven't come across verses in the Quran that read like the above. as for the errors, well, I think I'll leave that one to centuries of dark ages and persecution of scientists (such as Galileo) as a response.. Moral truths are a universal thing, then why should one subscribe to one religion and not the other since they all come bearing the same message-- obviousely something has to set itself apart from the rest!

Hugo - sadly this is absolutely true but you cannot seriously suggest that persecution of thinkers and scientists did not happen in Islamic societies? Yes, I think you may be right, moral truths are universal and one does not have to be a Muslim or Christian to lead a good and useful life.

What is the point of God sending a book without a teacher? Do pls contrast that with Jesus' disciples of whom Peter (the rock) denounced Jesus thrice before he was to be crucified.. can we say confused at best? These are the 'disciples' that allegedly your God has left behind for guidance after his death!

Hugo - Peter denied not denounced. But what is your point, that humans should have no failing or weaknesses? Perhaps you would do well to read the whole story of Peter. Did you think God only works through the great but never through the humble or those that fail, if you do you make God the measure of your own mind.

If God tells us to pray in the books yet fails to give us a teacher, well we might indeed end up dancing and clapping in God's house to the organ rather than going about it, in the manner of God's choosing!

Hugo - what point is this making? The Bible is full of prayers and so we know how to pray with no without words at all, with lofty words, with broken half formed words, in sadness and in joy. Go look at Psalm 150 and you will see there is no single way and creation itself praises God, its all about our being a living sacrifice to Him - can you agree to that.

I noticed that the thread was started by you, if you now concede the worthlesness of the thread, I can be game with that..
I think you will find that an administrator stated it not me because another thread generated a different direction.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2009, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



Agreed! :D

Peace
obviously, you have failed to bold all that I have written, as it should be taken in whole not in part.
Allow me the analogy: Surgery is freaking great to remove a parotid tumor, but whether it is Mucoepidermoid carcinoma or Adenoid cystic carcinoma or Malignant mixed tumors or Acinic cell carcinoma, Adenocarcinoma or Primary squamous cell carcinoma or Sebaceous carcinoma, has to be diagnosed and determined by the pathologist.. one mass, different presentations which will dictate the clinical course and appropriate therapy.. Surgery is crude medicine, and such is the universal moral law as it is reduced to the simplest most basic form.. religion does for morality, what pathology does for surgery.

all the best!
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-11-2009, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
It is not necessary to refute such an obviously erroneous idea as stated in bold above. Such an argument is fallacious because I cannot falsify your claim of divine origin and you cannot prove it.
How can such an argument be fallacious, would you rather expect a book full of mistakes to be divine?

A divine book has to be free from error and this has to be but one of it's preconditions. It's completely and totally illogical to argue otherwise. And yes I can prove that the Qur'an is true but this is not where the problem lies, the problem is accepting and believing in it once the truth is made clear.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2009, 11:15 PM
Hugo - I think you are just avoiding the question.

How about you elaborate on your non-question and give it a bit more definition I am not a mind reader!


Hugo - what can it mean to judge a fact by the end product, is not a fact the end product? I don't think you know what a 'fact is'. Of course there are contenders. Let's say poetry - are you seriously saying there is no poetry better that that found in the Qu'ran and if so show it to be so.
The end product is indeed a fact and can be for the more mystifying ends of things. And no, there are no contenders, though the Quran reads like poetry it isn't a poetry book. I have gone ahead and listed for you, all that was brought by the Quran. Islam isn't merely a religion, it is a complete, political/economic/social/moral/spiritual system. Plus it is melodious.. if you fixate on aspect, you'll have missed the point, as you often do and then dwell as nauseam on non-points!

Hugo - two things, but if you look around you will find Islamic sites that try to show that Prophet Mohammed is mentioned in the Song of Solomon. However, to get to the points, you were supposed to bring something from then Qu'ran comparable to Psalm 8, you issued the challenge and failed.
I can bring better:



Media Tags are no longer supported

_______


Media Tags are no longer supported


and here is one that brought all the listeners to their knees, Muslims and nonMuslims alike when it was revealed:
Media Tags are no longer supported




Hugo - sadly this is absolutely true but you cannot seriously suggest that persecution of thinkers and scientists did not happen in Islamic societies? Yes, I think you may be right, moral truths are universal and one does not have to be a Muslim or Christian to lead a good and useful life.
Like the example I have given of Christianity in the middle ages, I give the example of Islam in the age of enlightenment.. in fact the one that was oppressing our scientists was still the church, as was the case with Ibn Rushd whose books were banned by Pope Alexander the IV


Hugo - Peter denied not denounced. But what is your point, that humans should have no failing or weaknesses? Perhaps you would do well to read the whole story of Peter. Did you think God only works through the great but never through the humble or those that fail, if you do you make God the measure of your own mind.
The point is, your god was about to die (forsaking himself) and the folks he left behind to carry out his message were confused at best should really be foretelling of the future of christianity, that he (your god) in order to correct his short comings had to in a cryptic act, use his nemesis Paul to abrogate his commandments.. through a man who wasn't even a chosen disciple and the former lover of Popea (the wife of Nero) .. I'll leave that to your deductive reasoning as it is often over active.. we can only hope it equally active in this situation as well.

Hugo - what point is this making? The Bible is full of prayers and so we know how to pray with no without words at all, with lofty words, with broken half formed words, in sadness and in joy. Go look at Psalm 150 and you will see there is no single way and creation itself praises God, its all about our being a living sacrifice to Him - can you agree to that.
The point I am making is of the importance of sunna, and sane 'disciples'
I am not here for sacrificial or self-immolating purposes.. seems very counter intuitive.
I think you will find that an administrator stated it not me because another thread generated a different direction.
I genuinely don't understand what that means.. if it lost all purpose, why do you continue rehashing questions that have already been answered?

all the best!
Reply

czgibson
08-11-2009, 11:55 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
obviously, you have failed to bold all that I have written, as it should be taken in whole not in part.
Allow me the analogy: Surgery is freaking great to remove a parotid tumor, but whether it is Mucoepidermoid carcinoma or Adenoid cystic carcinoma or Malignant mixed tumors or Acinic cell carcinoma, Adenocarcinoma or Primary squamous cell carcinoma or Sebaceous carcinoma, has to be diagnosed and determined by the pathologist.. one mass, different presentations which will dictate the clinical course and appropriate therapy.. Surgery is crude medicine, and such is the universal moral law as it is reduced to the simplest most basic form.. religion does for morality, what pathology does for surgery.

all the best!
I love your medical analogies. :)

They make it all so much clearer.

Peace
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I love your medical analogies. :)

They make it all so much clearer.

Peace


that is why the cyber idols created google? Although admittedly all you needed to get out of that, was in the closing sentence ' religion does for morality, what pathology does for surgery' as in gives it more definition and direction!

all the best
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 12:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Allow me the analogy: Surgery is freaking great to remove a parotid tumor, but whether it is Mucoepidermoid carcinoma or Adenoid cystic carcinoma or Malignant mixed tumors or Acinic cell carcinoma, Adenocarcinoma or Primary squamous cell carcinoma or Sebaceous carcinoma, has to be diagnosed and determined by the pathologist.. one mass, different presentations which will dictate the clinical course and appropriate therapy.. Surgery is crude medicine, and such is the universal moral law as it is reduced to the simplest most basic form.. religion does for morality, what pathology does for surgery.
I can hardly understand what this is saying and even when I went to emedicine.com/plastic/... (not very nice is it to use and not cite the source unless you wrote it?) I still failed to understands where the analogy was. The essence of arguments based on analogy is simplicity and clarity not complexity and fog.

So if I state a moral law; let's say one about honesty do you mean that Islam or Christianity some how raises this law to another plain because those without religion have no sense of right and wrong?

I might agree with you if you said that religions have the necessary vocabulary to speak about morality - is this what you mean?
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 01:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I should forewarn you that the fellow Hugo makes up contents to the book as he desires.. in fact this is excerpted directly from the book:

Not a single book from the NT has survived in the original author's handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18 (footnote) Here I must interject that this date is pure guesswork, a subjective enterprise that can occasionally run with a marginal difference of decades to centuries. Among the earliest Greek manuscript of the N.T to actually bear a date is one written in the year of the world 6457 (i.e 949. C.E) Vatican library No. 345. Notice that the the manuscript does not contain any christian date, because the Anno Domini 'year of the Lord' calendar system had yet to be invented. See also this work pp 238-39, where Leningrad Codex mentions a slew of dates, none of them Christian. This reveals that until the 11th C C.E (if not beyond) no christian calendar system existed or at least was not in use]

he is just selectively, adding and parsing ad lib using adjectives, adverbs and pronouns to create the desired effect, which is obviously to discredit the author, for when you discredit the author, why should you bother reading the book.

He pursues vacuous attempts to paint the Quran and the bible in the same light in terms of transmission, or will come up with something like the author is pursuing this because the Quran's integrity rests on the falsity of the bible, and if that doesn't stand a chance then he'll figure something like volume or mass of empty contents, and when that doesn't work he'll figure out some other inane route to go on and turn the thread into 57 pages where he will discuss everything from roman numberals to the effects of orange juice on penmanship.. but nothing of substance!

It is all about a descent to word play and how he can use them to create a desired end, not an actual interest in textual integrity and content and side by side comparison.. really makes it belaboring to even attempt a response!
1. Let us be clear here, Skye quotes from Azami's book but its up to you to find the page as she make no attempt to make it clear. (its page 282)

2. However, what is interesting here is that the first para under sections 4 quoted above can be found at islam-is-the-only-solution.com/jesus-jihad-and-jizyah.htm in an article written by Shahid Bin Waheed and posted in 2005 indeed almost the whole section from section 3 page 281 onwards is substantially the same. Whist it is understood the quotations would be the same it would be unusual to say the least that Waheed and Azami's own words agreed (unless they are the same person?).

Now I don't know what is going in here but someone is copying from someone so there is question of integrity. At the moment for me a shadow is cast on Azami's book at this point. If any one explain this it would help.
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 02:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
How can such an argument be fallacious, would you rather expect a book full of mistakes to be divine?

A divine book has to be free from error and this has to be but one of it's preconditions. It's completely and totally illogical to argue otherwise. And yes I can prove that the Qur'an is true but this is not where the problem lies, the problem is accepting and believing in it once the truth is made clear.
I will try to explain why this is fallacious.

1. Firstly, you are engaging in 'proof by definition' because you say a divine book has to be free from error (we need to also define what that means). There is no way that you can shown this to be true or an acceptable definition because anyone can create their own definition and offer that as truth and there is no way it can be tested.

2. Secondly, the reasoning here is essentially circular and you are falling into a trap so is the Qu'ran divine because it is error free or is it is error free because it is divine? (after Socrates).

3. Thirdly, we have the notion of something being divine and any argument built on that is fallacious because it is unfalsifiable meaning the explanation contains a claim (divinity) that is not falsifiable: there is no way to check it is true and no way to show it is false. Consider the line "He lied because he's possessed by demons." Now this could be the correct explanation but there's no way to check it. You can check whether he's twitching and moaning, but this won't be evidence about whether a supernatural is involved. The claim that he's possessed can't be verified if it's true, and it can't be falsified if it's false. So, the claim is too odd to be relied upon for an explanation of his lying and is an instance of fallacious reasoning. (based on a note in iPod app called "cheetSheet" a summary of common fallacies)

5. I can add to this list but I think this is sufficient.

4. Perhaps Uthman will tell us if a thread exits (or might be created) to test you 'proof' although at this stage it is too vague to deal with or perhaps you meant error free = true another definition?
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
oh I see.. I guess it doesn't matter that I have quoted chapter 3 verse 7 about three to four times on this thread.. I really don't think he reads any replies here, given the repetition of the same resolved points with each thread.. it is tedious!
With regard to threads I was thinking of Al-Baqara 2:187 and yes it is easy to be misled here and indeed as you no doubt know it needed the intervention of the prophet himself to make the meaning of this verse clear. Bit odd don't you think that if this is God's very word that so simple a thing can be misunderstood. But not matter, no one watches for the dawn now?
Reply

MSalman
08-12-2009, 03:30 PM
^lol, I have to laugh at your poor logic and double standards. Do you not think that same can be said about the bible? Humans are not divine or understand things the same way. How the validity of God's words is proven by the fact that it should not be misunderstood? Can you please show us a single text on this planet on which everyone agreed upon on its every single thing?

So should I repeat your nonsense back to you?

PS: Are you sure you are talking about surah 2 ayah 18?
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
^lol, I have to laugh at your poor logic and double standards. Do you not think that same can be said about the bible? Humans are not divine or understand things the same way. How the validity of God's words is proven by the fact that it should not be misunderstood? Can you please show us a single text on this planet on which everyone agreed upon on its every single thing?

So should I repeat your nonsense back to you?

PS: Are you sure you are talking about surah 2 ayah 18?
I have no idea what poor logic you are talking about or why it might be double standards. I agree with you that we don't necessarily understand words, sentences etc the same way. My point was that if one argues that it is God that is saying something directly in the Qu'ran then can anything he says be unmeaning, it is you who argue that the Qu'ran is clear do you not?

Of course the same can be said about the Bible or any book for that matter because we as humans have to make sense of what is said so religious books are not exempt they are written in ordinary everyday language else we could not understand them at all don't you agree?

Sorry about the mistake and thanks for pointing it out the ref should be 2:187 and I used Pickthal.
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Hugo - what can it mean to judge a fact by the end product, is not a fact the end product? I don't think you know what a 'fact is'. Of course there are contenders. Let's say poetry - are you seriously saying there is no poetry better that that found in the Qu'ran and if so show it to be so.
The end product is indeed a fact and can be for the more mystifying ends of things. And no, there are no contenders, though the Quran reads like poetry it isn't a poetry book. I have gone ahead and listed for you, all that was brought by the Quran. Islam isn't merely a religion, it is a complete, political/economic/social/moral/spiritual system. Plus it is melodious.. if you fixate on aspect, you'll have missed the point, as you often do and then dwell as nauseam on non-points!

Hugo - it is your opinion there are no contenders but that will not make it a fact will it and if the opinion is wider that just you you still end with a fallacy. That you feel content and happy in your faith is a good thing but try not to think that other are not just as content and happy in theirs.

Hugo - two things, but if you look around you will find Islamic sites that try to show that Prophet Mohammed is mentioned in the Song of Solomon. However, to get to the points, you were supposed to bring something from then Qu'ran comparable to Psalm 8, you issued the challenge and failed.

Hugo - I looked at the videos and some of the view were stunning and in the second one how fitting it seemed to me that we also add Psalm 150 a song of praise from the whole creation and that would bring me to me feet in praise and joy.

Hugo - sadly this is absolutely true but you cannot seriously suggest that persecution of thinkers and scientists did not happen in Islamic societies? Yes, I think you may be right, moral truths are universal and one does not have to be a Muslim or Christian to lead a good and useful life.
Like the example I have given of Christianity in the middle ages, I give the example of Islam in the age of enlightenment.. in fact the one that was oppressing our scientists was still the church, as was the case with Ibn Rushd whose books were banned by Pope Alexander the IV

Hugo - did the Pope make Ign Rushd sit at the door of the mosque in Cordoba so that so called believers could spit on him as they entered. If you can only see wickedness and oppression in everyone else but never in your own faith you do a disservice to you faith and humanity.


Hugo - Peter denied not denounced. But what is your point, that humans should have no failing or weaknesses? Perhaps you would do well to read the whole story of Peter. Did you think God only works through the great but never through the humble or those that fail, if you do you make God the measure of your own mind.

The point is, your god was about to die (forsaking himself) and the folks he left behind to carry out his message were confused at best should really be foretelling of the future of christianity, that he (your god) in order to correct his short comings had to in a cryptic act, use his nemesis Paul to abrogate his commandments.. through a man who wasn't even a chosen disciple and the former lover of Popea (the wife of Nero) .. I'll leave that to your deductive reasoning as it is often over active.. we can only hope it equally active in this situation as well.

Hugo - how can you write such scurrilous rubbish, what web sites do you visit? I have more respective for Islam and indeed you that to look for such remarks about Islam - and there is no shortage of site that ridicule Islam and its Prophet.

Hugo - what point is this making? The Bible is full of prayers and so we know how to pray with no without words at all, with lofty words, with broken half formed words, in sadness and in joy. Go look at Psalm 150 and you will see there is no single way and creation itself praises God, its all about our being a living sacrifice to Him - can you agree to that.
The point I am making is of the importance of sunna, and sane 'disciples'
I am not here for sacrificial or self-immolating purposes.. seems very counter intuitive.

Hugo - here you go again about this self-immolation and I have no idea what you are talking about and your only purpose seems to be to avoid my questions.

I genuinely don't understand what that means.. if it lost all purpose, why do you continue rehashing questions that have already been answered?

all the best!
Look at this pots and see the question and how you avoid them. I have tried as best I can to answer your objections or question your answers
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 05:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I can hardly understand what this is saying and even when I went to emedicine.com/plastic/... (not very nice is it to use and not cite the source unless you wrote it?) I still failed to understands where the analogy was. The essence of arguments based on analogy is simplicity and clarity not complexity and fog.

So if I state a moral law; let's say one about honesty do you mean that Islam or Christianity some how raises this law to another plain because those without religion have no sense of right and wrong?

I might agree with you if you said that religions have the necessary vocabulary to speak about morality - is this what you mean?

My comment had nothing at all to do with Islam vs. Christianity or any other religion or ideology and was to CZ. not to you, just that alone should have elucidated the direction of the analogy-- do you have a persecution complex?
It has to do with the common moral code shared by all (atheists and theists) and how religion defines that code.

I thank you however, for your observations here, as it gives a very clear account of how you misread and deduce conclusions that have no bearing on what is actually written.

and yes indeed, I have written it myself, for I have to know a thing about parotid gland tumors and their varieties even if I am to look them up for reference and to use them in an example don't you think? whether on e medicine or uptodate or Robin's review of pathology, I guarantee said tumors will share the same names on any site and in order for me to leech it from anywhere I'd have had to have learned it at some point for instant ease of finding what looking for! as with everything it is written and conceived by my person for I challenge you to bring me a paragraph from anywhere on the web that states what I just have... the comments which I have quoted from the book and to corroborate the author's notes I have cited as such, not all of us rely on the wit of orientalists and nonsensical logorrhea to loan credence to what we write, you really ought to try it sometimes..

all the best
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
1. Let us be clear here, Skye quotes from Azami's book but its up to you to find the page as she make no attempt to make it clear. (its page 282)

2. However, what is interesting here is that the first para under sections 4 quoted above can be found at islam-is-the-only-solution.com/jesus-jihad-and-jizyah.htm in an article written by Shahid Bin Waheed and posted in 2005 indeed almost the whole section from section 3 page 281 onwards is substantially the same. Whist it is understood the quotations would be the same it would be unusual to say the least that Waheed and Azami's own words agreed (unless they are the same person?).

Now I don't know what is going in here but someone is copying from someone so there is question of integrity. At the moment for me a shadow is cast on Azami's book at this point. If any one explain this it would help.

your link:
islam-is-the-only-solution.com/jesus-jihad-and-jizyah.htm

doesn't work.. if you'd like people to comment and not be sent on a wild goose chase (and not actually point you out as the perpetrator of wrong doing). then do several things
1- Quote the passages in question (for comparison).
2- write what it is that has gotten you miffed about the passages in a clear concise manner.
3-provide workable links, along with quoting the passage in question.
4- Try on your own private time to contact either authors and see if there is something of a nom de plume although, I doubt that Dr. Al-Azami wastes his time on blogs when he has several books out in publication of which I have two.


Try to do your homework and not delegate the task to others if you expect that what you write should be taken seriously!

all the best
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
With regard to threads I was thinking of Al-Baqara 2:187 and yes it is easy to be misled here and indeed as you no doubt know it needed the intervention of the prophet himself to make the meaning of this verse clear. Bit odd don't you think that if this is God's very word that so simple a thing can be misunderstood. But not matter, no one watches for the dawn now?
Do tropes and figure of speech still exist in the English language or are they extinct now that we are so 'advanced'?

are such terms as, "falling in love", "racking our brains", "climbing the ladder of success" etc? exist?
do people still go out looking for:Best Places to Watch The Sunset -

I'd say, it is easy to be mislead only if you are a christian, for where else in any monotheistic religion do people take men for gods? and give the gods mothers, and alter egos etc?
and indeed, the call to prayer especially in Ramadan is done by watching the sun disappear into the horizon, I was fortunate enough to travel to places, where the call to prayer was made from the minaret as the 'sun set' signaling the end of fast and the rejoicing of the blessings of God!
Fortunately in Islam, everything is defined and well preserved, that even your feeble attempts seem rather comical.

all the best
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 05:57 PM

Hugo - it is your opinion there are no contenders but that will not make it a fact will it and if the opinion is wider that just you you still end with a fallacy. That you feel content and happy in your faith is a good thing but try not to think that other are not just as content and happy in theirs.
My comments have nothing to do with contentment of faith.. It it more an espousal of both heart and mind to reach a cohesive conclusion. Which unfortunately isn't the case in Christianity, for one has to leave all wit behind to accept the fallacy of the man/god combo.
I always like to use the analogy of someone having a heart attack.. what is the first thing that you can do?
1-give them oxygen?
2-give them an aspirin
3- Give them morphine
4-give them a fibrinolytic agent?
5- take them for an angioplasty right away
6- Give them MONA and heparin and o2
7- take them for a triple bypass right away
8- ask for a cardiology consult

Do any of the above seem wrong to you? in fact all of them have truth, all of them 'technically' correct. but only one is most correct, and only one will get you marked correctly on your exam, or in real life!
Hugo - two things, but if you look around you will find Islamic sites that try to show that Prophet Mohammed is mentioned in the Song of Solomon. However, to get to the points, you were supposed to bring something from then Qu'ran comparable to Psalm 8, you issued the challenge and failed.
I don't see how prophet Mohammed being mentioned in the song of Solomon has to do with this topic. Using the example above, it should be clear to you, that not everything in Christianity is incorrect, we can only judge by its agreement with Islamic text. All that agrees with Islam can be taken as true, all that disagrees can be discarded.

I find nothing in your bible comparable to the Quran, I brought you from the Quran that which is better. I can't bring the Quran down to a lower denominator where it can better fit with the bible. One is the word of men, and the other is the word of God, how can there be room for comparison?

Hugo - I looked at the videos and some of the view were stunning and in the second one how fitting it seemed to me that we also add Psalm 150 a song of praise from the whole creation and that would bring me to me feet in praise and joy.
I am glad you liked it (even if it were for the views)

Hugo - did the Pope make Ign Rushd sit at the door of the mosque in Cordoba so that so called believers could spit on him as they entered. If you can only see wickedness and oppression in everyone else but never in your own faith you do a disservice to you faith and humanity.
I think depriving folks of science, banning and torching books and torturing people to death (as was done during the inquisition) is a far worst crime than what you purport-- No oppression has ever happened in Islam because of faith, rather the dark desires of men!

Hugo - how can you write such scurrilous rubbish, what web sites do you visit? I have more respective for Islam and indeed you that to look for such remarks about Islam - and there is no shortage of site that ridicule Islam and its Prophet.
What does, what happened to Christ by his own disciple compare or have to do with islamophobes and their websites?


Hugo - here you go again about this self-immolation and I have no idea what you are talking about and your only purpose seems to be to avoid my questions.
I don't think I have avoided the question at all, you asked for the importance of Sunna when we have the Quran, and I have told you, it is to elucidate how things are to be done. Sure the Quran tells us to pray and the number of times, but it doesn't tell us how, and there is where the tradition of the prophet comes in.. you should have a look at this video
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-familiar.html

adopted from Islamic prayer as per the comments of the worshiper in question. I have merely asked you to contrast that, with what you do in your church, since none of your founding fathers elucidated that for you, and Jesus himself as per your bible picked disciples that were confused at best, that he later abrogated his commandments (if I am to take Jesus as God) through his nemesis (saul/Paul)
Look at this pots and see the question and how you avoid them. I have tried as best I can to answer your objections or question your answers
I haven't avoided any questions, I have clarified them. If you are unhappy with the answers giving you, that is rather a problem that you need to deal with personally, as it has no bearing on what I have written or the exchange here.

all the best!
Reply

MSalman
08-12-2009, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I have no idea what poor logic you are talking about or why it might be double standards.
poor logic because your saying that everyone should agree upon whatever God has said and not misunderstand what He is saying: other words, there should be not difference. This is an atheist argument and has many problems and this is not the thread to discuss it in details

double standards because your consider our difference to be problematic but same thing can be said about the Bible. So really, there is no point of bringing such an argument or it holds no value when it backfires on you.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
My point was that if one argues that it is God that is saying something directly in the Qu'ran then can anything he says be unmeaning, it is you who argue that the Qu'ran is clear do you not?
and who said or where is the text which says somethings in the Qur'an can be meaningless? Again, the same argument can be applied to any text and that is because we are humans. So really, your whole point pretty much pointless. Even if we agree with it, it holds no value in your favour: The Qur'an is not from God or the Qur'an must be understood by everyone.

The argument that the Qur'an is clear is not a black or white issue. It requires further explanation and even If I tell you, having known you for past few months, you will repeat same rubbish again. However, I will do it for sake of others:
There are ayaat which are very clear and can be understood by everyone. There are ayaat which may seem simpler but they require further clarifications and explanations. In addition, not everyone is qualified and have tools to understand and interpret the Qur'an. Thus the Qur'an make it obligatory upon those who are not knowledgeable to ask the people of knowledge. The argument which you brought falls under the second category because it requires bit detail explanation in regard to fiqh. Moreover, it is an evidence for Qur'an's command to ask the people of knowledge because not every one has the knowledge to understand rulings correctly.
rest later, insha'Allah

and Allah knows best
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
poor logic because your saying that everyone should agree upon whatever God has said and not misunderstand what He is saying: other words, there should be not difference. This is an atheist argument and has many problems and this is not the thread to discuss it in details

Hugo - please show me where I said such a thing because I think you are inventing this

double standards because your consider our difference to be problematic but same thing can be said about the Bible. So really, there is no point of bringing such an argument or it holds no value when it backfires on you.

Hugo - differences can be problematic so I don't see where double standards comes in here and I don't know where I brought any argument on this.

and who said or where is the text which says somethings in the Qur'an can be meaningless? Again, the same argument can be applied to any text and that is because we are humans. So really, your whole point pretty much pointless. Even if we agree with it, it holds no value in your favour: The Qur'an is not from God or the Qur'an must be understood by everyone.

The argument that the Qur'an is clear is not a black or white issue. It requires further explanation and even If I tell you, having known you for past few months, you will repeat same rubbish again. However, I will do it for sake of others:
Why is it I repeat rubbish by you presumably cannot, please explain? I think any one with even a passing interest in Islam knows there are difficulty words and verses just like most other books. Where we might differ is that I cannot accept that authority as you describe must forever be subservient to reason that is the way of stagnation; one never learns to think for yourself so the Islam you describe is condemned to live in a past that will not pass.

I think it better that you take the time to read what I said which was if God says something then it cannot be meaningless else why bother to say it? Clearly, this does not necessarily mean WE can understand it.

I don't want points in my favour, stop inventing motives for me and start being aware of your own. This is about learning not sophistry. I never said the Qu'ran was not from God, I said that it is not possible to prove it is or prove it is not.
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
My comments have nothing to do with contentment of faith.. It it more an espousal of both heart and mind to reach a cohesive conclusion. Which unfortunately isn't the case in Christianity, for one has to leave all wit behind to accept the fallacy of the man/god combo.
I always like to use the analogy of someone having a heart attack.. what is the first thing that you can do?

Hugo - to say this shows you know nothing of Christian faith. When one comes to faith it for me anyway not about 'reaching a conclusion' as if its some examination question. It's about hearing God's call. Have you never considered Abraham, any rational man would not have left his home at God's call to wander who knows where; he just believed God, he had faith and a promise but nothing else of substance. Was his heart and mind in it, yes but it was simple faith and a hold on the promise that made the difference.

You see there is not a long list of things we must know or things we believe when we comes to faith, it is simply God's call and our response to it. As we move through life we learn more and more of God but like Abraham we hold on by faith. The mistake you make in your analogy is that to choose the correct answer one must be an expert but when we come to God at the beginning of faith its a simple response to want to follow where he leads and that is based on faith not expert opinion. Do any of the above seem wrong to you?.

All that agrees with Islam can be taken as true, all that disagrees can be discarded. I find nothing in your bible comparable to the Quran, I brought you from the Quran that which is better. I can't bring the Quran down to a lower denominator where it can better fit with the bible. One is the word of men, and the other is the word of God, how can there be room for comparison?

Hugo - I pity you, you make God the measure of your own mind and to even suggest that things like the book of Isaiah, the Psalms, the Sermon on the Mount to name a few are not comparable is to consign what is unquestionably good, noble and beautiful to the dogs is unbelievable in any rational person.

I think depriving folks of science, banning and torching books and torturing people to death (as was done during the inquisition) is a far worst crime than what you purport-- No oppression has ever happened in Islam because of faith, rather the dark desires of men!

Hugo - this is just a fallacy and I assume that you mean that if something bad happened it was not true Islam. Well if that is the quality of your argument then I apply it to the inquisition on the basis that was not true Christianity. To not speak up when you see wrong anywhere is to be a part of that wrong

adopted from Islamic prayer as per the comments of the worshiper in question. I have merely asked you to contrast that, with what you do in your church, since none of your founding fathers elucidated that for you, and Jesus himself as per your bible picked disciples that were confused at best, that he later abrogated his commandments (if I am to take Jesus as God) through his nemesis (saul/Paul)
I am not sure I can follow this. Islamic prayer format was taken from the Jews so its not Unique. I don't think you have any idea what we do in church with regard to prayer but typically we have set communal prayers just as you do but also open prayers and of course often hymns are prayers.

If you find that not to your liking that is ok by me but you have to understand that others might find it baffling and boring that you say the same prayers over and over again and perhaps for the vast majority of Muslims without much understanding.

To me its where our hearts and mind is when we prayer that matters, that we prepare ourself for it and focus on God.
Reply

MSalman
08-12-2009, 08:18 PM
^*smack*

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
please show me where I said such a thing because I think you are inventing this
this is implied by your following statement as I pointed even earlier

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Bit odd don't you think that if this is God's very word that so simple a thing can be misunderstood.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
differences can be problematic so I don't see where double standards comes in here and I don't know where I brought any argument on this.
well, my apology - it is not really double standards but same problem exists within your own belief. So fix that first before raising the argument "Bit odd don't you think that if this is God's very word that so simple a thing can be misunderstood." against Islam

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Why is it I repeat rubbish by you presumably cannot, please explain?
you mean I do not? because unlike you I do not dance around the issues and repeat same argument for which I have been corrected or I was wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I think it better that you take the time to read what I said which was if God says something then it cannot be meaningless else why bother to say it? Clearly, this does not necessarily mean WE can understand it.
Liar, you did not say meaningless! You said: "Bit odd don't you think that if this is God's very word that so simple a thing can be misunderstood".

I have asked once before and I am asking you again, please tell me where do you get the idea that Allah has said meaningless things in the Qur'an. And could you please elaborate on what do you you mean by meaningless?

PS: this is not going anywhere - I am off
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Do tropes and figure of speech still exist in the English language or are they extinct now that we are so 'advanced'?

are such terms as, "falling in love", "racking our brains", "climbing the ladder of success" etc? exist?do people still go out looking

I'd say, it is easy to be mislead only if you are a christian, for where else in any monotheistic religion do people take men for gods? and give the gods mothers, and alter egos etc?and indeed, the call to prayer especially in Ramadan is done by watching the sun disappear into the horizon, I was fortunate enough to travel to places, where the call to prayer was made from the minaret as the 'sun set' signaling the end of fast and the rejoicing of the blessings of God! Fortunately in Islam, everything is defined and well preserved, that even your feeble attempts seem rather comical.

all the best
Are there any Muslims in the far north, they would wait a very long time for sunset or daybreak so the sceptical might argue that God must have forgotten this when the Qu'ran was delivered? You see its easy to poke fun at other peoples beliefs.

I can only speak for myself but I find it profoundly sad that everything is defined so I have no room to move. Surely a God who made the heavens, the stars, the smallest flower would allow a bit of imagination is his followers and today is different from yesterday and tomorrow is totally unknown so Christians like Abraham walk by faith not sight.
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 08:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife

well, my apology - it is not really double standards but same problem exists within your own belief. So fix that first before raising the argument "Bit odd don't you think that if this is God's very word that so simple a thing can be misunderstood." against Islam

you mean I do not? because unlike you I do not dance around the issues and repeat same argument for which I have been corrected or I was wrong.

Liar, you did not say meaningless! You said: "Bit odd don't you think that if this is God's very word that so simple a thing can be misunderstood".

I have asked once before and I am asking you again, please tell me where do you get the idea that Allah has said meaningless things in the Qur'an. And could you please elaborate on what do you you mean by meaningless?

PS: this is not going anywhere - I am off
When it comes to dancing it seems you are better at it than me.

I am always wrong because you have corrected me
I am a liar and for that I demand an apology, this is a board where we respect each other. I said if I recall it that God cannot be unmeaning and in a reply I said it in an alternative form God cannot be meaningless.

My query was about how so simple a thing as threads could be misunderstood, its not deep subject is it yet if you read the hadith some had to ask the prophet what it meant. Surely, its a fair question to ask why God could not be understood?
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 08:45 PM


Hugo - to say this shows you know nothing of Christian faith. When one comes to faith it for me anyway not about 'reaching a conclusion' as if its some examination question. It's about hearing God's call. Have you never considered Abraham, any rational man would not have left his home at God's call to wander who knows where; he just believed God, he had faith and a promise but nothing else of substance. Was his heart and mind in it, yes but it was simple faith and a hold on the promise that made the difference.You see there is not a long list of things we must know or things we believe when we comes to faith, it is simply God's call and our response to it. As we move through life we learn more and more of God but like Abraham we hold on by faith. The mistake you make in your analogy is that to choose the correct answer one must be an expert but when we come to God at the beginning of faith its a simple response to want to follow where he leads and that is based on faith not expert opinion. Do any of the above seem wrong to you?.
Perhaps it is about simple faith, but if it is simple faith then Buddhism is just as attractive as any other ideology or organized religion. Why one believes as they do, has to be built on some standards, and if at the very crux of the argument is something so contradictory and counter intuitive to all that has been brought by Abrahamic faith prophets, then I don't see how is can be accepted. Simple faith tells me I'd be just as well off a Mandean as I'd an agnostic. Islam teaches us to think to arrive to God, which is in fact what Abraham himself has done, what you are asking people to do, is forgo of all logic and accept nonsense that wasn't even instituted by Jesus himself and not until the 4th century to be more in concert with former Grecian paganism.. God, impregnating a mortal woman, to have Zeus, except even there, they don't expect you to believe that they are all on in the same.

2:130 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

Abraham wasn't an idolator, he didn't believe in self-immolating gods who are at times akin to animals whether lambs/or lions.

Thus, Islam is what goes with the nature of man, not against it. The concept of a divine being shouldn't be some twisted hyperbole that you'd need a table of scholars to untangle it for you or simply dismiss it for 'faith'. It should be clear enough for the most complex to the most simple minds.




Hugo - I pity you, you make God the measure of your own mind and to even suggest that things like the book of Isaiah, the Psalms, the Sermon on the Mount to name a few are not comparable is to consign what is unquestionably good, noble and beautiful to the dogs is unbelievable in any rational person.
You can pity, all you want. I never said, anything about dogs or throwing it to the dogs.. but one questions, why it is, that you disregard all the beauty of the 'OT' for this new documents where you can't trace back authorship.. there is alot of beautiful literature out there and poetry and pros. but that is as far as they go. To make the leap from a beautiful afternoon with a book to the change that comes from accepting God's word as a complete way of life is rather disparate. Also, if I were you, I'd refrain from jumping to ridiculous conclusions that are obviously the temporal workings of your own mind. I notice you do that for everything, whether written by members or authors. Which makes you dishonest at best!

Hugo - this is just a fallacy and I assume that you mean that if something bad happened it was not true Islam. Well if that is the quality of your argument then I apply it to the inquisition on the basis that was not true Christianity. To not speak up when you see wrong anywhere is to be a part of that wrong
There is nothing fallacious as the mere definition of inquisition or crusades was created to suppress and murder in the name of religion. When you use the term Muslim terrorists, that is the working of your own choosing as no Islamic system supports it. However, when countries work on papal orders, or ban books on papal orders or murder and torture on papal orders what they considered heretics, then frankly, I am not sure how else to label it!


I am not sure I can follow this. Islamic prayer format was taken from the Jews so its not Unique. I don't think you have any idea what we do in church with regard to prayer but typically we have set communal prayers just as you do but also open prayers and of course often hymns are prayers.
Actually if you've read his own comments and followed the thread, you'd have discovered, it is the other way around. Jews don't pray like this, the gentleman however believes that, that is how traditional prayer should be, other Jews don't agree with him.
I have gone to catholic school, I know how prayers and mass are held. Also 'supplicating' or treating God as a wish granting genie doesn't really constitute prayer. Your take home message is, that is what constitutes the importance of sunna! So God doesn't come later and retract his commandments through someone like saul!
If you find that not to your liking that is ok by me but you have to understand that others might find it baffling and boring that you say the same prayers over and over again and perhaps for the vast majority of Muslims without much understanding.

To me its where our hearts and mind is when we prayer that matters, that we prepare ourselfs for it and focus on God.
Salat comes from silah (denoting relationship) a Muslim gets to talk to have a direct relationship with God five times a day or as many times of their choosing. I have sat in enough masses to know what boredom is not as conceived by my own person as I had an inquiring mind, but of the company of the ladies in my class.
as for uttering without understanding, that is definitely your take on it.. there wouldn't be islam, iman, ihsan, ikhlas, if folks didn't reach different levels of religiosity through their daily prayers.
also if you are fixating on the 'prayer' aspect, you'll have completely missed the point of the analogy, which is why we need a teacher to elucidate for us, what is correct, so we are not waiting for the letters of saul to abrogate God's commandments so we'd feel better about losing a few useless articles of faith!

all the best
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
your link:
islam-is-the-only-solution.com/Jesus-Jihad-and-Jizyah.htm

doesn't work.. if you'd like people to comment and not be sent on a wild goose chase (and not actually point you out as the perpetrator of wrong doing). then do several things
1- Quote the passages in question (for comparison).
2- write what it is that has gotten you miffed about the passages in a clear concise manner.
3-provide workable links, along with quoting the passage in question.
4- Try on your own private time to contact either authors and see if there is something of a nom de plume although, I doubt that Dr. Al-Azami wastes his time on blogs when he has several books out in publication of which I have two.

Try to do your homework and not delegate the task to others if you expect that what you write should be taken seriously.
Here is the link and the document in question is about 4,500 words long and that is too big for convenience in a posting. In any case my tendency is to point to the source directly so there is no ambiguity and no chance that anything is missed.

I have stated my view that Dr Azami is a careless scholar and I have identified a serious difficulty and given you the page numbers in his book and the web source. Rationally, you should be concerned because it calls into question the credibility of the whole book because someone is being plagiarised.

You are the one with a high opinion of the book but if you want to ignore this and not check the link then that is matter for you. If you can exonerate him that will be excellent and a good result but if you cannot then this book will draw down ridicule for Islamic scholarship.

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solutio...and-Jizyah.htm
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Are there any Muslims in the far north, they would wait a very long time for sunset or daybreak so the sceptical might argue that God must have forgotten this when the Qu'ran was delivered? You see its easy to poke fun at other peoples beliefs.

I can only speak for myself but I find it profoundly sad that everything is defined so I have no room to move. Surely a God who made the heavens, the stars, the smallest flower would allow a bit of imagination is his followers and today is different from yesterday and tomorrow is totally unknown so Christians like Abraham walk by faith not sight.

Your questions are not unique or fun poking, they require an answer and God does indeed as us in the Noble Quran, to seek wisdom from the people of knowledge. Rather than loan it the hyperbolic definition of your choosing?

here is your question/skepticism answered :


When the Sun Never Sets: Prayer Times & Islamic Law Date 09/Sep/2008 Question Islam is said to be universal. Unlike previous religions, Islam is meant for all people, at any time, any place, and under all circumstances. My question is, how do people living in upper Canada, Scandinavia and other northern places perform their five daily prayers when there are months when the sun never sets (a phenomenon known as the midnight sun)? Or during others when darkness stays for months? Someone living there will probably find Islam's daily prayers irrelevant to his living conditions (and yes, of course, there were people living there 1400 years ago too). Well, I know that today, in cities like Yellowknife in upper Canada, they simply follow the prayer times of another city south of Canada where the phenomenon doesn't occur (in this case, Edmonton). I guess the real question is: how could a universal religion ask people to follow something which doesn't occur on the whole planet?
Topic Aspects of Worship Name of Counselor Jasser Auda
Answer
Salam, Inquirer

Thank you for your question. However, the example that you are mentioning here as something that is at odds with the universality of the message of Islam, is the very same example that could be used to argue otherwise.
In fact, the whole reasoning process in the Islamic law (referred to as 'ijtihad'), is based on the 'universality' feature of the Islamic law. The following aims at providing an outline of how this feature of universality works in the system of Islamic law.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent as a human example to all mankind. But because of the very fact that he was 'human', Muhammad gave as that example in a specific geographical location (Arabia) and in a specific point in history (7th century CE). There is no possible human way by which the example of the Prophet could be introduced free from the dimensions of space and time.
The Muslim scholar, Al-Tahir Ibn Ashur wrote a chapter of a book on a purpose and a high principle of Islamic law, which he called, 'The Universality of the Islamic Law.' In this chapter, Ibn Ashur considered the effect of the Arabic dimensions of history, geography, and customs on the Islamic scripts themselves. The following is a summary of Ibn Ashur's argument.
First, Ibn Ashur explained that it is necessary for the Islamic law to be a universal law, since it claims to be "applicable to all humankind everywhere on earth and at all times," as per a number of Quranic verses and hadith that he cited.
Ibn Ashur mentioned, for example:
*{Now as for you, O Mohammad, We have not sent you otherwise than to mankind at large.}* (Saba' 34:28)
*{Say [O Mohammad]: "O mankind! Verily, I am an Apostle to all of you."}* (Al-A`raf 7:158)
and the hadith: "An apostle used to be sent specifically to his own people, while I have been sent to all of mankind." (Al-Bukhari)
Then, Ibn Ashur elaborated on the wisdoms behind choosing the Prophet from amongst Arabs, such as the Arabs' isolation from civilization, which prepared them, "to mix and associate openly with other nations with whom they had no hostilities, in contrast to Persians, Byzantines, and Copts." (Ibn Ashur, Maqasid Al-Shariah Al-Islamiyah, ed. Mohamed El-Tahir El-Mesawi, Kuala Lumpur: Al-Fajr, 1999.p. 234.)
Yet, for the Islamic law to be universal, "its rules and commands should apply equally to all human beings as much as possible," as Ibn Ashur confirmed. That is why, he wrote, "God had based the Islamic law on wisdoms and reasons that can be perceived by the mind and which do not change according to nations and custom."
Thus, Ibn Ashur provided explanation as to why the Prophet forbade his companions to write down what he says, "lest particular cases be taken as universal rules." Ibn Ashur began applying his ideas to a number of narrations, in an attempt to filter out the Arabic dimension from Islamic rulings. He wrote:
Therefore, Islamic law does not concern itself with determining what kind of dress, house, or mount people should use ... Accordingly, we can establish that the customs and mores of a particular people have no right, as such, to be imposed on other people as legislation, not even the people who originated them ...
This method of interpretation has removed much confusion that faced scholars in understanding the reasons why the law prohibited certain practices… such as the prohibition for women to add hair extensions, to cleave their teeth, or to tattoo themselves...
The correct meaning of this, in my view... is that these practices mentioned in Hadith were, according to Arabs, signs of a woman's lack of chastity. Therefore, prohibiting these practices was actually aimed at certain evil motives … Similarly, we read: ... *{believing women should draw over themselves some of their outer garments'}* (Al-Ahzab 33:59)… This is a legislation that took into consideration an Arab tradition, and therefore does not necessarily apply to women who do not wear this style of dress… Ibn Ashur, Maqasid Al-Shariah Al-Islamiyah, p.236)
Therefore, based on the purpose of 'universality' of the Islamic law, Ibn Ashur suggested a method of interpreting narrations through understanding their underlying Arabic historical and geographical context, rather than treating them as absolute and unqualified rules.
Now, to answer your specific question, I would say that the timings of the Islamic regular five daily prayers are not set in stone and are not only subject to the 'signs' shown by the sun in the middle parts of earth.
The five prayers do indeed apply in the other remote parts of earth but require some 'ijtihad', or free thinking, in order to decide about prayer times in light of our understanding of the wisdoms and purposes behind the five prayers.
The purpose of prayers is to face God and pray for him in a certain way regularly over every 24 hours. Thus, the opinions that asked Muslims to either pray according to the nearest major city with regular timings, or according to an even distribution of prayers over 5 intervals regardless of the light/darkness, are all valid opinions. They only show the flexibility of the Islamic law.
I hope this answers your question. Please keep in touch.
Salam.
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE
Reply

GreyKode
08-12-2009, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
[I]


Actually if you've read his own comments and followed the thread, you'd have discovered, it is the other way around. Jews don't pray like this, the gentleman however believes that, that is how traditional prayer should be, other Jews don't agree with him.
I dare you Hugo to corroborate that statment, do you even know the format of the muslim prayer?
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Here is the link and the document in question is about 4,500 words long and that is too big for convenience in a posting. In any case my tendency is to point to the source directly so there is no ambiguity and no chance that anything is missed.
You've read all 4500 words of each and concluded that Al-Azami plagiarized word for word? You've given me one link and there is no Dr. Al'Azami script for me to compare, I'd like for you to not only act on my previous request in a stepwise fashion, up to and including contact with the authors, nonetheless, a simple step you can do, is look at the dates. Dr. Al-Azami's book was published in 2003, this article is written 2005. So you do the math!
Further, the material in there is common knowledge, anyone into comparative study would reach the same conclusion, using the same passages!

I have stated my view that Dr Azami is a careless scholar and I have identified a serious difficulty and given you the page numbers in his book and the web source. Rationally, you should be concerned because it calls into question the credibility of the whole book because someone is being plagiarised.
See above comments about dates, and I have addressed all your concerns in a step wise very concise fashion in the previous pages. Allow me to say. You couldn't tell the difference between a squash and a cucumber if you were married to them, thus I don't know how I can possibly take anything you write seriously!

You are the one with a high opinion of the book but if you want to ignore this and not check the link then that is matter for you. If you can exonerate him that will be excellent and a good result but if you cannot then this book will draw down ridicule for Islamic scholarship.

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solutio...and-Jizyah.htm
The mere date discrepancy which you were remiss at best in mentioning should be enough of a testimony. I don't need to exonerate him I think his work stands on its merits, as with each post you write, I realize that I am dealing with an amateur and I feel rather contrite having wasted my time on such a dynamo of a hyperbole!


all the best
Reply

Uthman
08-12-2009, 09:21 PM
Please stick to discussing the authenticity of the Qur'an. Members are advised not to spend a long time preparing off-topic posts, since they will be deleted.

I would also like to reiterate my reminder in this post.
Reply

Proud of Islam
08-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Salaam..

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

4. Is your view that the Qu'ran now in your possession that it has no faults whatever: grammar is perfect, poetry is perfect, rhythm is perfect etc. A plain yes or no will do.

5. Let us supposed that I or anyone can show that it is not perfect in any of these respects - what will you do, will your faith be in tatters?
I bet and challenge if anyone can show in the holy Quran a SINGLE mistake or weakness in any of these respects!
We are Arabs, and we are amazed by the perfection of the Holy Quran.. Long books were written to discuss ((some)) of the perfect language in the Holy Quran..

Allah swt has challenged people who disbelieved the prophet (pbuh) in a sequence of requests where the next requests were easier than the previous, but each time, they failed..


[52:34] Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful.

[11:13] Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful!

[2:23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

[17:88] Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.


By the way, even Arabic non-Muslims know this fact!
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I assume you mean here that 'at the time' was 1,400 years ago they (who exactly are "they") could not do it then so no its not strange at all but it is not true now is it?
It IS even nowadays, no one can write anything like the Quran.. You might not be able to understand this since you might not know Arabic.. The language of the Holy Quran is GREAT!
Let me ask a question, there are some Arabs who are not Muslims; they believe in other religions & some of them are even atheist, why they haven't tried to challenge Muslims and write like the Quranic verses? Because as Arabs, it's obvious that they cannot at all, and they know that it wouldn't be a proper situation because even an Arabic child can distinguish between the great Quran verses and the other contexts..

Alwaleed ben AlMugeera was not believer; however, he got amazed by the language of the holy Quran and he said a sentence that I might not be able to translate accurately, so I wish someone else will translate it; I apologise but my English is not that good:


أخرج الحاكم وصححه والبيهقي في الدلائل من طريق عكرمة عن ابن عباس أن الوليد بن المغيرة جاء إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقرأ عليه القرآن فكأنه رق له فبلغ ذلك أبا جهل فأتاه فقال : يا عم إن قومك يريدون أن يجمعوا لك مالا ليعطوه لك فإنك أتيت محمدا لتعرض لما قبله
قال : قد علمت قريش أني من أكثر مالا
قال : فقل فيه قولا يبلغ قومك أنك منكر أو أنك كاره له
قال : وماذا أقول ؟ فوالله ما فيكم رجل أعلم بالشعر مني ولا برجزه ولا بقصيده مني ولا بشاعر الجن والله ما يشبه الذي يقول شيئا من هذا ووالله إن لقوله الذي يقول لحلاوة وإن عليه لطلاوة وإنه لمثمر أعلاه مغدق أسفله وإنه ليعلوا وما يعلى وإنه ليحطم ما تحته قال : لا يرضى عنك قومك حتى تقول فيه
قال : فدعني حتى أفكر
ففكر
فلما فكر قال : هذا سحر يؤثر يأثره عن غيره فنزلت آيات تتحدث عن قوله وعن عقابه..

So, they were disbelievers but without claiming to make proven facts as faults!


----------------------------------------------------------------

Longing for the Paradise (Al-Jannah) where the endless happiness…
Reply

Hugo
08-12-2009, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Originally Posted by Hugo -1. Page xvi and xvii Azami) writes: “.. the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospels were written c. the 10th century...”. citing as a source Bruce Metzger who wrote “This is one of the earliest dated Greek manuscripts of the Gospel... “.

Why does Azami leave out the word "one" which in this context is critical to understanding, frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT text are 10th century or later.
Gossamer Skye Not a single book from the NT has survived in the original author's handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18 (footnote) Here I must interject that this date is pure guesswork, a subjective enterprise that can occasionally run with...

Hugo - I asked why did Azami leave out the important word "one" and I see no answer to that.

Original Posted by Hugo - 2. Bottom of Page xvii Dr Azami says "The only known facts are that the OT books appeared on the scene only to disappear promptly for a few hundred years, before abruptly resurfacing. Again they disappeared without trace for many centuries, and were once again suddenly recovered." Ignoring the impossibility of these being the 'only' known facts, Dr Azami at this point gives a ref to 2 Kings 14-16 (meaning chapters 14 to 16?). One supposes that these chapters would confirm his 'known facts' but the chapters list the names together with tiny biographies of Kings for the two Jewish kingdoms: Israel and Judah spanning about 200 years. In this list of kings There is one ref to the Torah in 2 Kings 14:6 and a very oblique one in verse 14 to the temple being robbed (where a copy was kept) and several refs to the Book of The Chronicles of the Kings. Hardly conclusive is it?
Gossamer Skye : I am at a loss at to why this is a difficult point -- you may actually use google the search feature and you'll get youtube vids by Jews speaking of the law of Moses being lost-- is it a matter of reference of vexation of bringing such a known point to the light?

Hugo - this is irrelevant as I am asking WHY did Dr Azami give a reference that has no content relative to his claims. This is not about whether its true or not its about whether Azami is showing his quality as a scholar.

Missing books of the OT:
1. The Book of the Wars of the Lord(Sepher Milkhamot Adonai)
“Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the LORD, “Waheb in Suphah, And the wadis of the Arnon,” (Numbers 21:14) etc

Hugo - so when Dr Azami speaks of OT books he includes everything so 39 plus I don't know how many you listed and all these books were lost and found TWICE. Not credible is it and as my original point the ref he gives hardly covers all this.

Original Posted by Hugo - 3. On page xx he says “.. non Muslim sources however, some of whom feel no hesitation in referring to their own Lord Jesus Christ as an adulterer or a homosexual, to David as an adulterous schemer, or to Solomon as an idolater”.

This is a misleading idea because nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus was an adulterer or homosexual but it does say the other two things. So here he is either muddled or ignorant of simple facts and sources. Muslims might believe in the purity of the prophets but the Bible records Noah as getting drunk, Lot as sleeping with his daughters, Joseph as being drunk with his brothers, Abraham as a liar, Sarah as a spiteful vindictive women, Moses as trying to take the place of God and so on. Why does it do this is if it’s not true, what crazy redactor would leave all that in so here we have deliberate confusion over ‘non-Muslim sources' and a denial of what must be the truth.
covered by me here also by me from a different thread:
Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: "Whatever has he been doing with her?" Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died. (D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 - May 1, 1532, p. 33)

Hugo - this may be what someone wrote but it is NOT a biblical source is it and that is my point. I can find a site that says that prophet Mohammed was all sorts of nasty things, would you accept it just because someone said it?

Originally Posted by Hugo - 4. On page xxi he speaks of a ‘most accurate Qu’ran in the world’ so there must be inaccurate ones and hence inaccurate manuscript and never quite explains how he knows it is the most accurate.
No, Only you are supposing that the others are false because oh it would be so delightful, the Medinah Mus'haf if you have bothered with a two second research you'd have come up with:

Hugo - I said nothing about it being false I just asked in essence what did he mean and how doe he know its the most accurate. You seem to confirm it below and Dr Azami later inn the book talks of 'errors'

''However, authors and publishers have not been able to include the Qur'anic verses in documents and personal writings, except in normal fonts, which lack many of the aesthetic aspects that the Uthmanic calligraphy has. This has resulted in some instances of text distortions, confusion of reading or drops of certain items.''

Now you tell me honesty If there were such a thing as an 'original bible' from the mouth of Jesus in such ancient text, or different shattered handwriting, would you be able to read it as I have just done with this level of confidence and fluidity?
no to your last question but obviously the complete Bible did not exists did it, there was NO NT at that time, how come you did not know such bas simple fact? But this is irrelevant to what we are discussing and that is Dr Azami as a Scholar. Later we can discuss what his book says on Biblical issues
Reply

جوري
08-12-2009, 10:05 PM
Hugo Why does Azami leave out the word "one" which in this context is critical to understanding, frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT text are 10th century or later.
It is irrelevant, unless you'd like to clarify for us, how it would make a difference? The dots used in quotations denotes emphasis on the important factors. It is a preface, there is no point to heroic measures, and is it so happens he in fact later expounded on said point as is evident in my quote from his book.
Hugo - this is irrelevant as I am asking WHY did Dr Azami give a reference that has no content relative to his claims. This is not about whether its true or not its about whether Azami is showing his quality as a scholar.
another non-point, the claim isn't only true, it is corroborated.. it is pointless to fill a book with otiose lines that can be sustained by a quick reference. Which in fact what I have done using different scholars, fixating on ancillary topics simply to appease one person, I suspect isn't enough of an impetus for scholars to change direction and concede to circumstantially especially if it has no relevance to the matter at hand. Do you understand the difference between circumstantially/ tangentially and being a master of apposite and appropriate writing and/or speech?

If not google it, because it is something that I rather think is very important for you personally to employ. We are on page 14 and you have this habit of being repetitious, worst yet, you are either uninterested or simply don't bother reading or addressing the replies given you. as you reiterate them on every post (it is getting tedious). I admit that this will make you successful in two ways.
1- you'll tire everyone out and if that is your claim to success, then allow me to say, it is rather contemptible!
2- if you are only interested in your point of view, then there is a section on this forum dedicated to free writing (where you can win prizes for your soliloquies, and in such a case, I suggest you write a long drawn out grievance in the form of a story or pros and see who awards you for it.



Hugo - this may be what someone wrote but it is NOT a biblical source is it and that is my point. I can find a site that says that prophet Mohammed was all sorts of nasty things, would you accept it just because someone said it?
This isn't just anyone This is the view of the Protestant Church adhering to the views of Martin Luther. It isn't mere islamophobes writing rhetoric that has no basis in the Quran or Sunna. It is a scholar of Christianity's views based on the bible. And in fact so tells us Dr. Al-Azami, and please allow me to quote to prove to the members who haven't read the book, simply how deviant you are in distorting the image of this author. '' Martin Luther negates the image of a sinless Jesus. This is to be found in Luther's table talk'' pp 269. which is in fact what I had excerpted earlier, as you can see, I didn't sponge it from an anti-christian website, and that such a view went unchallenged by christians. Frankly if you have a problem with it, you should address amongst Christians not amongst Muslims-- Given its roots and the rather large denomination that isn't deemed heretical but accepted as a major school of thought!
Hugo - I said nothing about it being false I just asked in essence what did he mean and how doe he know its the most accurate. You seem to confirm it below and Dr Azami later inn the book talks of 'errors'
And I have explained sufficiently, how using the Uthamnic text would circumvent incorrect readings by amateurs and the those inexperienced in Arabic grammar. Gave quite a few examples:
for instance ادغام elision or اظهار proclamation and others with their numerous subcategories can be lost to someone who isn't familiar with Arabic grammar if the تشكيل figuration, isn't pre configured in advance. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'errors' as you conceive them to be. Again, this is an example on how you hammer in a point to death, though it is very clearly and concisely explained with examples given previously!

no to your last question but obviously the complete Bible did not exists did it, there was NO NT at that time, how come you did not know such bas simple fact? But this is irrelevant to what we are discussing and that is Dr Azami as a Scholar. Later we can discuss what his book says on Biblical issues
that is just your inner child speaking, I imagine. You have Aramaic and Hebrew, and Greek bibles in existence regardless of how far after christ they were concocted can you read and understand those and defend them or just like to demand that of others and not expect it of yourself?

All the best as always
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 10:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You've read all 4500 words of each and concluded that Al-Azami plagiarized word for word? You've given me one link and there is no Dr. Al'Azami script for me to compare, I'd like for you to not only act on my previous request in a stepwise fashion, up to and including contact with the authors, nonetheless, a simple step you can do, is look at the dates. Dr. Al-Azami's book was published in 2003, this article is written 2005. So you do the math!
Further, the material in there is common knowledge, anyone into comparative study would reach the same conclusion, using the same passages!


See above comments about dates, and I have addressed all your concerns in a step wise very concise fashion in the previous pages. Allow me to say. You couldn't tell the difference between a squash and a cucumber if you were married to them, thus I don't know how I can possibly take anything you write seriously!



The mere date discrepancy which you were remiss at best in mentioning should be enough of a testimony. I don't need to exonerate him I think his work stands on its merits, as with each post you write, I realize that I am dealing with an amateur and I feel rather contrite having wasted my time on such a dynamo of a hyperbole! all the best
I am well aware of the date of the web posting but someone is copying here and I cannot tell for sure whom it is. The date might be important but its not conclusive and given that the web site is well referenced it would seem a bit odd that he would leave out such an important and well know author such as Azami.

I am not in the habit of posting huge chunks of text or references to multiple websites which in practice no one reads. I have given clear references to the questionable material and that is the proper scholarly way to deal with it, point to the primary sources. If people don't have Azami's book then they cannot with any kind of authority join the discussion. If you or anyone wants to follow it up then do so.

If you want to post sections of Azami's book then I will run them through the software I have access to and see what it throws up.
Reply

Ramadhan
08-13-2009, 10:31 AM
I would like to see just once Hugo addresses Skye's highly detailed postings in their entirety.
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 10:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Hugo Why does Azami leave out the word "one" which in this context is critical to understanding, frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT text are 10th century or later.
It is irrelevant, unless you'd like to clarify for us, how it would make a difference? The dots used in quotations denotes emphasis on the important factors. It is a preface, there is no point to heroic measures, and is it so happens he in fact later expounded on said point as is evident in my quote from his book.
This is my last post on this issue as I would like to move on. On page xxvi at the top of the page he clearly want to convey the impression that the earliest dated manuscripts and by implication all manuscript are 10th century. To support this view he has to appeal to a Biblical NT scholar of note. He choose Bruse Metzger but Metzger said "one of .." meaning there are many early dated manuscripts. In Metzger's book we find very long lists of manuscripts; so why select just this one: why not add say a ref to codex Vaticanus which is a 4th century manuscript in short he paints a distorted picture and one has to ask why does he do that if he is an unbiased observer?
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 11:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
This isn't just anyone This is the view of the Protestant Church adhering to the views of Martin Luther. It isn't mere islamophobes writing rhetoric that has no basis in the Quran or Sunna. It is a scholar of Christianity's views based on the bible. And in fact so tells us Dr. Al-Azami, and please allow me to quote to prove to the members who haven't read the book, simply how deviant you are in distorting the image of this author. '' Martin Luther negates the image of a sinless Jesus. This is to be found in Luther's table talk'' pp 269. which is in fact what I had excerpted earlier, as you can see, I didn't sponge it from an anti-christian website, and that such a view went unchallenged by christians. Frankly if you have a problem with it, you should address amongst Christians not amongst Muslims-- Given its roots and the rather large denomination that isn't deemed heretical but accepted as a major school of thought!
One can find this story anywhere on the web and almost always they are Islamic sites. When you read them you love them because it tells you what you want to hear and I know all you have done is copy from one or more of those sites as if that is a suitable primary source. Why is it that you never look for another interpretation of Luther's supposed words? Not to do so is dishonest. If you were an honest seeker you would have looked for alternative sites which gave a different view.

I have no access to the works in question but I did look for an alternative view on the web and used http://aardvarkalley.blogspot.com/20...dalene_19.html Almost all websites have limitation as one cannot usually do the scholarly checks one would want to to check the authors etc. But in summary:

Luther is not the leader of the protestant church, there is no such leader. I might as well argue that Ayatollah, Khomeini was the leader of the Muslim world an important Sufi cleric speaks for all sunni Muslims.

My understanding is that it was John Schlaginhaufen who recorded these quotes back in the spring of 1532 but did not always explain the context in which the sayings were made.

So we have to ask what was Luther talking about back in 1532? He may have been examining Jesus from the perspective of people at the time of Jesus who were shocked that He ate and drank with "sinners" and that He'd sit and talk one-on-one and in public with a woman. He may have been speaking theologically about these woman being granted forgiveness; Jesus was no passive bystander, He lived among us. While sinless, He took our sins upon Himself that He might fully forgive us.

Luther was a man who taught faith in Jesus and one simply cannot imagine he would put such faith in someone who he thought to be an adulterer.

If you wish to always accept what you read preferring to pounce on slander rather that use your reason or even accept that there might be a perfectly rational way of explaining these remarks. No, that might be asking too much, you want to believe this is the Christian church slandering its founder so you do. Fine, but I advise you not to rely on websites and the likes of Dan Brown as authority on scriptures or the history of the church
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 11:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Hugo - I said nothing about it being false I just asked in essence what did he mean and how doe he know its the most accurate. You seem to confirm it below and Dr Azami later in the book talks of 'errors'
And I have explained sufficiently, how using the Uthamnic text would circumvent incorrect readings by amateurs and the those inexperienced in Arabic grammar.

Hugo - I refer you to to Azami page 151 where he speak of errors and scribal blunders. I will come back to this page later. I also have referred you to Professor Easak's (a Muslim scholar) work (ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7) page 111 where he says "Uthman's project to compile the Qu'ran was clearly in response to a proliferation of 'unauthorised copies' during his time - partly as the result of the Arabic script of the time"

and

"Early Qu'ranic Arabic lacks precision because distingusingt between consonant was impossible given the absence of diacritical marks... All of this leads to endless possibilities in meaning and error in transcription..."

no to your last question but obviously the complete Bible did not exists did it, there was NO NT at that time, how come you did not know such bas simple fact? But this is irrelevant to what we are discussing and that is Dr Azami as a Scholar. Later we can discuss what his book says on Biblical issues
that is just your inner child speaking, I imagine. You have Aramaic and Hebrew, and Greek bibles in existence regardless of how far after christ they were concocted can you read and understand those and defend them or just like to demand that of others and not expect it of yourself?
Here you simply repeat the common Islamic view that the Bible was 'concocted' so you dismiss many 1000's of manuscripts, 100s of years of painstaking scholarship and research so ignore therefore any evidence because it does not fit in with you world-view. For you it has no value, even the greatest passages and books - why do that, even if it were not a religious book, what rational person would disregard what is plainly good?

You say you believe in a Bible, an uncorrupted one that no one now can see and where is there any rationality in that?
Reply

Zafran
08-13-2009, 12:34 PM
Here you simply repeat the common Islamic view that the Bible was 'concocted' so you dismiss many 1000's of manuscripts, 100s of years of painstaking scholarship and research so ignore therefore any evidence because it does not fit in with you world-view. For you it has no value, even the greatest passages and books - why do that, even if it were not a religious book, what rational person would disregard what is plainly good?

You say you believe in a Bible, an uncorrupted one that no one now can see and where is there any rationality in that?
No no no Its well known that manuscripts dont match anyway - you can have a million manuscripts - it means zero if they cannot be matched togather - you have 100s of years of scholarship but you also have scholars saying the opposite - Do you ignore them too for your worldview? - pure hypocricy here.

we dont beleive in a Bible - we believe in a gospel given to christ and Torah given to Moses pbuh - what you have today is clearly not that - thats enough for us - this can easily be estabilshed too.

With a thread going up to 14 pages and still you have zero clue of what muslims believe in. Does it go in one ear and go out of the other.
Reply

Zafran
08-13-2009, 12:47 PM
why not add say a ref to codex Vaticanus which is a 4th century manuscript in short he paints a distorted picture and one has to ask why does he do that if he is an unbiased observer?
Yes vaticanus is a 4th century manuscript - did you know it has verses actually ommited out of it - eg - mark 16:9-20.
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 01:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
No no no Its well known that manuscripts dont match anyway - you can have a million manuscripts - it means zero if they cannot be matched togather - you have 100s of years of scholarship but you also have scholars saying the opposite - Do you ignore them too for your worldview? - pure hypocricy here.

we dont beleive in a Bible - we believe in a gospel given to christ and Torah given to Moses pbuh - what you have today is clearly not that - thats enough for us - this can easily be estabilshed too.

With a thread going up to 14 pages and still you have zero clue of what muslims believe in. Does it go in one ear and go out of the other.
1. This is simply illogical nonsense - I can have dozens of books on say business studies or history all covering the same thing they don't match either so according to you all those books are worthless. Look at Azami's book and he says that for Qu'ranic text there were what he called scribal blunders so they don' t match either. In a court of law one has witnesses and and if everyone said exactly the same thing you would suspect its a fix up. The fact of many 1,000s of manuscripts exist is that is possible to reconstruct the original. If you cannot accept that as a possibility then your mind is closed.

What is wrong with scholars disagreeing and taking even opposite views, that is how one learns. Would you accept without question everything you are told? Does it never happen in Islam?

2. You say you believe in the Torah (5 books) and Gospels (4 Books) but seem to have forgotten the Psalms (150 of them). So where is there any logic or even common sense in believing in the contents of books which you have never seen?
Reply

Zafran
08-13-2009, 01:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
1. This is simply illogical nonsense - I can have dozens of books on say business studies or history all covering the same thing they don't match either so according to you all those books are worthless. Look at Azami's book and he says that for Qu'ranic text there were what he called scribal blunders so they don' t match either. In a court of law one has witnesses and and if everyone said exactly the same thing you would suspect its a fix up. The fact of many 1,000s of manuscripts exist is that is possible to reconstruct the original. If you cannot accept that as a possibility then your mind is closed.

What is wrong with scholars disagreeing and taking even opposite views, that is how one learns. Would you accept without question everything you are told? Does it never happen in Islam?

2. You say you believe in the Torah (5 books) and Gospels (4 Books) but seem to have forgotten the Psalms (150 of them). So where is there any logic or even common sense in believing in the contents of books which you have never seen?
1 - utter nonsense You still havent talked about the corruption eg mark 19 - the ommited verses - Millions of manuscripts OK - they corrupted I gave you an example how do you fill mark 16-9-20?? - thats preety much ended the talk there - I never said anything about Azami - where did I say anything about Azami???

we are also talking about revelation and not some man made business studies book - unless you believe that the Bible is man made? Then we agree. Not having mark 16-9-20 and having mark 16-9-20 - big differneces - they DONT consist of the same things.

2 - Nonsense again I say we believe in the Gospel of Jesus Not the books of mark and matthew etc and the Torah of Moses - not the one where he is being buried!!!!!

Its preety logical

Its a bit like I believe in my Great, great,great,great,great,great grandma existed even though I have never seen her - I dont even know who she was But Still believe she existed - so is that nonsense???

Nothing wrong with scholars having differences - But when they show serious flaws they have to be dealt with it intellectually.
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Yes vaticanus is a 4th century manuscript - did you know it has verses actually ommited out of it - eg - mark 16:9-20.
Why not try to answer the question I set on Dr Azami's book not avoid it like this. If you read Dr Azami's book you would have known there are fragmentary Qu'rans - bits missing, does that ipso facto mean the Qu'ran now cannot be trusted?.
Reply

Zafran
08-13-2009, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Why not try to answer the question I set on Dr Azami's book not avoid it like this. If you read Dr Azami's book you would have known there are fragmentary Qu'rans - bits missing, does that ipso facto mean the Qu'ran now cannot be trusted?.
eg?

You made assertion about Vaticanus and I have shown where it is corrupted unless you can show me where it is not - mark 16 - 9- 20 is missing - how will you create that and where was it first found?
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 01:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
1 - utter nonsense You still havent talked about the corruption eg mark 19 - the ommited verses - Millions of manuscripts OK - they corrupted I gave you an example how do you fill mark 16-9-20?? - thats preety much ended the talk there - I never said anything about Azami - where did I say anything about Azami???

Hugo - one fills in the verses from other manuscript witnesses because we have a large collection of them. In contrast there are NO manuscripts from the time of the Prophet, if there were we should be able to see bits on bone, a leaves etc somewhere preserved.

we are also talking about revelation and not some man made business studies book - unless you believe that the Bible is man made? Then we agree. Not having mark 16-9-20 and having mark 16-9-20 - big differneces - they DONT consist of the same things.

Hugo - of course the Bible as a book is man made but inspired by God. Did God actually write down the Qu'ran with his own hand?

2 - Nonsense again I say we believe in the Gospel of Jesus Not the books of mark and matthew etc and the Torah of Moses - not the one where he is being buried!!!!!

Hugo - excellent, please send me a copy of this Gospel you speak of, where can I look it up?

Its a bit like I believe in my Great, great,great,great,great,great grandma existed even though I have never seen here - I dont even know who she was But Still believe she existed - so is that nonsense???

Nothing wrong with scholars having differences - But when they show serious flaws they have to be dealt with it intellectually.
You believe in your great, great .... great grandmother because you can be absolutely sure you had one - that is no faith is required. One cannot say the same for this mystery Gospel of yours can we?

All scholars have flaws its part of being human and it is the differences that generate questions that can be openly discussed which will correct those flaws - don't you agree?
Reply

MSalman
08-13-2009, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Why not try to answer the question I set on Dr Azami's book not avoid it like this. If you read Dr Azami's book you would have known there are fragmentary Qu'rans - bits missing, does that ipso facto mean the Qu'ran now cannot be trusted?.
if you were little bit more honest and looking for truth (as you say), then you would know that these manuscripts are not as important to us as they manuscripts of the bible are to you because the Qur'an has been transmitted through orally and mutwatir ahadith for centuries in addition to the manuscripts. Whereas you only got manuscripts thousands of manuscripts not matching to each other in addition to written by unknown authors. We do not know if those unknown authors were trustworthy, true followers of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), pious, etc. So if we have manuscripts of the Qur'an missing some parts then it does not pose any threat to us because we have two other sources to verify it. However, this is not the case for you. You got nothing else to verify it with in addition to your own scholars not agreeing on what the actual bible should be (the content). On other hand, Muslim scholars do disagree over the understanding of the content but they do not disagree over the content itself - what constitutes the Qur'an.

Really, you are yet again picking straws here and there and nothing more
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
eg?

You made assertion about Vaticanus and I have shown where it is corrupted unless you can show me where it is not - mark 16 - 9- 20 is missing - how will you create that and where was it first found?
I made no assertion other that to say it was 4th century, I simply asked why Dr Azami had not for example chosen it instead of the one he did choose.

No one as far as I know denies corruption but I do argue for reconstruction so I cannot quite see what you are getting at and elsewhere I have explained how corruptions can be removed.
Reply

Hugo
08-13-2009, 01:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
if you were little bit more honest and looking for truth (as you say), then you would know that these manuscripts are not as important to us as they manuscripts of the bible are to you because the Qur'an has been transmitted through orally and mutwatir ahadith for centuries in addition to the manuscripts. Whereas you only got manuscripts thousands of manuscripts not matching to each other in addition to written by unknown authors. We do not know if those unknown authors were trustworthy, true followers of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), pious, etc. So if we have manuscripts of the Qur'an missing some parts then it does not pose any threat to us because we have two other sources to verify it. However, this is not the case for you. You got nothing else to verify it with in addition to your own scholars not agreeing on what the actual bible should be (the content). On other hand, Muslim scholars do disagree over the understanding of the content but they do not disagree over the content itself - what constitutes the Qur'an.

Really, you are yet again picking straws here and there and nothing more
Well let's agree to differ, I have perhaps as many as 6,000 manuscripts so a huge body of evidence with which to reconstruct originals. Yes there are corruptions bur also huge areas of agreement between them. Why you find this so untrustworthy I don't know but it is not rational.

If I consider what you say, and I intend no disrespect, I have to believe in a single witness, prophet Mohammed and that he received the message verbally (no one else heard it) and somehow memorised it perfectly et etc. Well can I really be castigated if I find it hard to credit?
Reply

Zafran
08-13-2009, 02:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
You believe in your great, great .... great grandmother because you can be absolutely sure you had one - that is no faith is required. One cannot say the same for this mystery Gospel of yours can we?

All scholars have flaws its part of being human and it is the differences that generate questions that can be openly discussed which will correct those flaws - don't you agree?
agree about scholars

I cant actually be absolutly sure if we take the extreme sceptic approach. So I clearly need faith - to know something we have to have faith in it to start with.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-13-2009, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ibn Abu Lahab
Quote:
Original Posting By Hugo - I don't understand your last sentence as I am not aware that I said anything about anybody or everybody forgetting but if I did please point it out to me?
UNLIKE the New Testament which is mostly anonymous or pseudonymous, and therefore EXTREMELY questionable in authenticity, the Ayats of the Qur'an were collected during the life of the Prophet, contemporaneously and with witnesses. you are claiming mistakes in this process, i am asking when and where these mistakes were made. to answer the above attack on the veracity of the Qur'an:


So far in my post I have not brought up the question of authenticity and my posts on Dr Azami's book are about his qualities as a careful scholar.
if Dr Azami bothers you SO MUCH, why don't you just aks sister Skye which book you should use?

simple enough, eh?


ibn Abu Lahab - perhaps you should look at one of the most respected and widely used English translations of the Qu'ran, that by Yusuf Ali and see what he says in foot notes. One does not teach a lexicon and simply saying that betrays a lack of understanding of what such a tool is. If you are knowledgeable about Al Azhar then tell me what lexicons they use or recommend or if they have Lane's in their library? Go and ask them what their view of it is?
Yusuf Ali is one of the most criticized translations out there. it is more in the style of the King James Bible and is considered by some to be a literary masterpiece but full of mistakes

Quote:
ibn Abu Lahab - that is fine but does that mean the Sister Skye is Omniscient?
Here you are attacking Islam as well as Muslims. we don't assign the attributes of Allah to human beings. it is not correct in Islam, i understand the you Christians do it with various persons or entities, but it is unacceptable in Islam. furthermore, IF any Muslims do it, they are wrong and committing a form of shirk. but again if you've done any research, you already know that.

ibn Abu Lahab - I cannot follow your logic here from my quote and perhaps if you examined the Qu'ran you might notice that Allah can see. Is it wrong to say address God as 'father' or describe God as a might fortress a rock or that he stretches out his hand and so on. I don't think I have attacked Islam but simply asked questions about it and there is a big difference. If you see every criticism or question as an attack that sounds like paranoia - do you see it like that.
tough to tell when you are just being your usual spiteful contemptuous self or that you really might not understand something

the Qur'an states that Allah has hands, but i don't show you my hands to show you what Allah's hands look like. we don't know what Allah's hands look like. where Allah describes himself, we just accept what He says and we don't over analyze it. it's the same with the attributes of Allah, Allah is the Most Merciful; that doesn't mean that i can't be merciful, but one CANNOT claim to be the Most Merciful, for that is Allah. and where Muslims [or those claiming to be Muslim] do this, they are in error. that is different than wheat Christians do with Jesus and Melchizedek.

Answering your last question sis easy, I simply resort to the same fallacy you used "The Bible is from God and you ask "who is the author of the Bible?" Immediately after claiming the you have questioned it's authenticity, as well as asking if we can "authenticate God"!
there is a big difference between the Qur'an which was revealed DIRECTLY from Gibreel, Alayhe Salaam. to the Rasulullah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam and what even Christian Scholars claim about the Bible. Christians claim the Bible WAS written by man! the claim is that they were inspired by God when they wrote it! based upon that, your repeated retorts of fallacy don't make any sense. the 2 aren't really comparable as you claim.

Why cannot Christians and Jews use the same argument, there are thousands upon thousands of manuscripts so getting them together would allow reconstruction?
the more manuscripts you use, the more variations you have.

Let me end by asking a question - do you think there is anything of value in the Bible, if so tell me which part or parts?
we aren't talking about value, we're talking about authenticty. i value [or used to] the short works of Feyodr Dostoyevsky and Leo Tolstoy, does that mean they are written by God? you are try to cloud the issues discussed here.

Why it is impossible? Do you mean by versions, translations?
if you truly do not understand the question, i suggest that you watch Professor Luke Timothy Johnson's, "The Story of the Bible" put out by the Teaching Company. it goes for $70 when on sale, i got my for under $40 on ebay. here's a description from the company:

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursede....aspx?cid=6252

My quotes were obviously Biblical ones so this has zero relevance. If its about what we believe and a matter of swapping stories, do you believe that Prophet Mohammed's heart was extracted and washed with snow? Do you believe that someone could die for a 100 years and when he woke up he found this moth eared book etc etc. Is there a literal bridge one has to cross at the end of life, is heaven full of sofas etc?.

This is worthless discussion
again, just pointing out your contempt and insults which you claim you don't do.

Do you follow the Qu'ran to the 'T', if so why don't you use cotton threads to mark the end and beginning of a day during ramadan, why is it if the Qu'ran is complete do you need the Sunna et etc?
what an extremely odd thing for a Christian to write. do YOU base your life as a Christian on what Jesus said? or even the Bible EXCLUSIVELY? and the logical question would be that IF your Bible was SO DANG AUTHORITATIVE, why did id take half a millennium or more to decide just what the Bible is????

ibn Abu Lahab Why does Azami leave out the word "one" which in this context is critical to understanding, frankly it looks like he is misleading deliberately or unintentionally the reader into thinking that all NT text are 10th century or later.
while i recommend we just get past Azami's book, i think that you are either purposely trying hide an important issue here or you haven't done enough research on this issue to speak about it. let me quote:

Erasmus had been studying Greek New Testament manuscripts for many years, in the Netherlands, France, England and Switzerland, noting their many variants; but he only had six Greek manuscripts immediately accessible to him in Basel.[7] They all dated from the 12th Century or later, and only one came from outside the mainstream Byzantine trradition. Consequently, most modern scholars consider his text to be of dubious quality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus

the majority of English Bible translations, all that are based on the King James, are from the Greek text are of a later date than the 10th Century!

and:

FACTS about Manuscripts

A manuscript is a hand-copied document. This was the method used for writing and duplicating existing literature prior to the invention of printing. There are over 5,300 (5,309 to be exact) existing manuscripts of the Scriptures. Some of these manuscripts contain a large portion of scripture, while other are fragments.

Let us first consider certain Greek texts from which all New Testament translations are derived:

1. the Majority Texts (Textus Receptus), and
2. the Minority Texts (primarily the Westcott and Hort Greek Text, based primarily on the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus).

For obvious reasons, the Textus Receptus is also referred to as the "Majority Text" since the majority (95% or more) of existing manuscripts support this reading. These extant manuscripts were brought together by various editors such as Lucian (AD 250-312), Erasmus, Stephanus, Beza, and the Elzevir brothers. The most notable editor of all was Desiderius Erasmus (1466-1536) one of the greatest scholars the world has ever known. When the early Protestant Reformers of the 16th and 17th centuries decided to translate the scriptures directly from Greek into the languages of Europe, they selected Textus Receptus as their foundation Greek document.


http://www.1611kingjamesbible.com/manuscripts.html/

this above clarifies and gives weight to my declaration.

Here you simply repeat the common Islamic view that the Bible was 'concocted' so you dismiss many 1000's of manuscripts, 100s of years of painstaking scholarship and research so ignore therefore any evidence because it does not fit in with you world-view. For you it has no value, even the greatest passages and books - why do that, even if it were not a religious book, what rational person would disregard what is plainly good?

You say you believe in a Bible, an uncorrupted one that no one now can see and where is there any rationality in that?
that statement is disputed with what i put above it.

and as i grow weary of this, you posted somewhere [and i really tried to locate it] that there were hundreds of manuscripts predating the 10th Century, presumably in order to discredit Dr Azami.

and thus i give you:

Of the more than seven thousand Greek manuscripts (or fragments thereof) that are known today, fewer than ten (all now defective) originally contained the entire Greek Bible. Of these, only four date from before the 10th century, and of these four, Codex Vaticanus is one of the two earliest-the other (written about the same time) being the famous Codex Sinaiticus, now in the British Library
http://library.bethel.edu/about/friends/codex

and ALL are defective! and NONE contain the NT as it is known today! they either contain the Epistle of Barnabas, 1st Clement, BOTH or 1st and 2nd Clement as CANONICAL! so TECHNICALLY, NOT the Bible, just one "VERSION" of it! which partially answers a question you asked earlier.

good luck to Skye on others who continue down this seemingly futile road! i may [or may not] add a few things here and there. and Allah knows best!

:wa:
Reply

Zafran
08-13-2009, 02:09 PM
one fills in the verses from other manuscript witnesses because we have a large collection of them. In contrast there are NO manuscripts from the time of the Prophet, if there were we should be able to see bits on bone, a leaves etc somewhere preserved.
There are also no manuscript evedince atleats the full writings of the bible until well later. As I said the mauscripts dont actually add up - so its all good saying that there are many but whats there dates???

Hugo - of course the Bible as a book is man made but inspired by God. Did God actually write down the Qu'ran with his own hand?
Your the one who campared it to a business studies book. Prophet Muhammad pbuh was there to check it fully was Jesus pbuh there for your book? - nope its 400 years after with mark 16 - 9-20 missing.

Hugo - excellent, please send me a copy of this Gospel you speak of, where can I look it up?
you christains shouldnt have messed around with it.
Reply

Zafran
08-13-2009, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I made no assertion other that to say it was 4th century, I simply asked why Dr Azami had not for example chosen it instead of the one he did choose.

No one as far as I know denies corruption but I do argue for reconstruction so I cannot quite see what you are getting at and elsewhere I have explained how corruptions can be removed.
Thats all i need to hear - thanks.

so can you tell me the earliest source of mark 16-9-20? where they got it from? I was getting at the point that said that you can re create the bible with the manuscripts you have - well how do you do it with mark 16-9-20 if its in todays bibles but not in vaticanus. As you said

The fact of many 1,000s of manuscripts exist is that is possible to reconstruct the original. If you cannot accept that as a possibility then your mind is closed.
how is this possible?? with mark 16-9-20?

1000 mnauscripts dating from...............
Reply

Uthman
08-13-2009, 02:29 PM
This thread is about the authenticity of the Qur'an only and not that of the Bible which can be discussed here.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-13-2009, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
This thread is about the authenticity of the Qur'an only and not that of the Bible which can be discussed here.
:sl:

but Hugo keeps referring to a book that discusses both and claims that the Muslims author is some kind of quack and unreliable because he doesn't write the "truth" about Biblical Manuscripts.

i, for my part, am trying to show that Hugo himself is not qualified to discuss said manuscripts. whether or not this should then permit Azami's views on the Qur'an...i don't know.

that's is why i suggest he take a recommendation from Sister Skye for another book.

and, In Sha'a Allah, some of this material may find it's way to the other thread...

:wa:
Reply

MSalman
08-13-2009, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
You believe in your great, great .... great grandmother because you can be absolutely sure you had one - that is no faith is required. One cannot say the same for this mystery Gospel of yours can we?
If the corruption and distortion of the bible is shown then we are absolutely sure that original Injeel was revealed but it was later tempered and not preserved.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Well let's agree to differ, I have perhaps as many as 6,000 manuscripts so a huge body of evidence with which to reconstruct originals. Yes there are corruptions bur also huge areas of agreement between them. Why you find this so untrustworthy I don't know but it is not rational.
you display no common sense or rationality so I have to wonder how can you even conclude that other people are not rational.

1 - So what if they largely agree with each other? Is this not the purpose of manuscripts' preservation?

2 - So what if they largely agree with each other? How does that solve the problem where they disagree with each other? When they disagree with each other, which manuscript(s) should we believe in and why that particular one(s)? Like I said before, manuscripts is the only source you got to verify the authenticity of the Bible and you got not way around when they disagree with each other. So at the end of the day, whether 6000 manuscripts or 6 billion manuscripts, the number holds no value when they cannot even give us the original bible. So who is irrational?

3 - It is irrational because if not most then large portion of the bible comes from unknown people. How can we trust them when we have no info about them? This unknown thing poses many questions which you cannot get around it except to have blind faith and dance around the issue. Yet, you talk about proofs, rationality, etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
If I consider what you say, and I intend no disrespect, I have to believe in a single witness, prophet Mohammed and that he received the message verbally (no one else heard it) and somehow memorised it perfectly et etc. Well can I really be castigated if I find it hard to credit?
I am sorry but you are not in a position to make such a claim or even consider it problematic because if it is problematic then you got even bigger problem on your side: UNKNOWN AUTHORS. How are you going to solve that mystery? And you compare this with Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who is a Prophet, known for honesty & good character, and conveyed the Message fully! You want us to have faith in your unknown authors but discard Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as being the only witness when it is clear that he was under direct guidance of the Lord. So really, you got no leg to stand!

PS: brother Uthman, this is my last post here so please overlook at off-topic, Jazak Allah khayr
Reply

Follower
08-13-2009, 03:40 PM
islamic life - I am sorry but you are not in a position to make such a claim or even consider it problematic because if it is problematic then you got even bigger problem on your side: UNKNOWN AUTHORS.

The author of the Holy Bible is GOD. Do you mean scribes?

Who was the author of the Quran? Or the scribes of the Quran?
Reply

Zafran
08-13-2009, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
islamic life - I am sorry but you are not in a position to make such a claim or even consider it problematic because if it is problematic then you got even bigger problem on your side: UNKNOWN AUTHORS.

The author of the Holy Bible is GOD. Do you mean scribes?

Who was the author of the Quran? Or the scribes of the Quran?
we can link the Quran back to the prophet Muhammad pbuh by the unbroken chain of transmission thorugh the oral tradition.

How can we link the "Unknown author" back too - If God inspired the person to wirte that Gospel - who was it - if you dont know then we have a problem. Anybody could have wrote it.

what Muslims realy want to know is something that can be linked back to christ.
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Uthman
08-13-2009, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
what Muslims realy want to know is something that can be linked back to christ.
Indeed they do! But they want you to explain it in another thread, not this one. :)
Reply

جوري
08-13-2009, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I am well aware of the date of the web posting but someone is copying here and I cannot tell for sure whom it is. The date might be important but its not conclusive and given that the web site is well referenced it would seem a bit odd that he would leave out such an important and well know author such as Azami.

I am not in the habit of posting huge chunks of text or references to multiple websites which in practice no one reads. I have given clear references to the questionable material and that is the proper scholarly way to deal with it, point to the primary sources. If people don't have Azami's book then they cannot with any kind of authority join the discussion. If you or anyone wants to follow it up then do so.

If you want to post sections of Azami's book then I will run them through the software I have access to and see what it throws up.

No, you are not well aware of the dates. It is a very logical next step to take and logic is not your strong suit. for one thing you're so miffed about Al-Azami missing 'one' yet fail to be conclusive about something that would save you and us, a rather large 4500 as per you read. Where is the clear reference or common sense in that least of which when you've professed your strong aversion for leeching info off the web .. are you a hypocrite?

and so what if the website reflects the comments in the book?

Are you unable to reason like human beings do, or simply have a desire to create enough of a miasma so others (like brother yusuf) wouldn't purchase the book?

knowing the content of the book, in contrast to the bull you spew here, I have concluded:
1- you have no research integrity and have no system for reasonable judgment!

2- you're full of self-justifications for when left cornered for evidence, you come up empty, and surprisingly exempt yourself from the same demands and conditions that you place on others. In fact if you commit yourself to a 16 page thread, why not do yourself and everyone else a grand favor and labor over it like the rest of us have to answer point by point in lieu of bringing the same answered points to the table alleging whilst alleging that no one likes to read 50000 words when it is in fact you who doesn't wish to expend any effort learning!

3- your usage of words is completely out of congruity with content you write. It isn't sufficient to dress yourself in a nice suit when you haven't taken a bath and stink beneath. Authoritative sounding words on a book that you haven't read past the preface but approached with the intent of discrediting from the outset still doesn't get to make up for contents that come up empty!

lastly, you are under some strange impression that I am looking to discuss contents of this book with you, when I'd actually recommended the book to a fellow Muslim. You are obviously inept at holding up or defending your bible against the mess that it finds itself in, let alone in reference to other scriptures.
all the best
Reply

جوري
08-13-2009, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
This is my last post on this issue as I would like to move on. On page xxvi at the top of the page he clearly want to convey the impression that the earliest dated manuscripts and by implication all manuscript are 10th century. To support this view he has to appeal to a Biblical NT scholar of note. He choose Bruse Metzger but Metzger said "one of .." meaning there are many early dated manuscripts. In Metzger's book we find very long lists of manuscripts; so why select just this one: why not add say a ref to codex Vaticanus which is a 4th century manuscript in short he paints a distorted picture and one has to ask why does he do that if he is an unbiased observer?

It should have been the last post on the issue somewhere around page six, he has painted the exact correct picture, and you haven't read it in previous posts, pls let me re-quote again, perhaps this time, it might take hold?

Not a single book from the NT has survived in the original author's handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18 (footnote) Here I must interject that this date is pure guesswork, a subjective enterprise that can occasionally run with a marginal difference of decades to centuries. Among the earliest Greek manuscript of the N.T to actually bear a date is one written in the year of the world 6457 (i.e 949. C.E) Vatican library No. 345. Notice that the the manuscript does not contain any christian date, because the Anno Domini 'year of the Lord' calendar system had yet to be invented. See also this work pp 238-39, where Leningrad Codex mentions a slew of dates, none of them christian. This reveals that until the 11th C C.E (if not beyond) no christian calendar system existed or at least was not in use]
pls allow me to interject here and write again, what I had previous.. do you understand what it means to do this when quoting ''.....some writing.''
or '' some writing......''
it means we are only highlighting the most important portion of the text, again and the the millionth time, there is no reason for the author to expound in his preface and go off circumstantially when the topic he was discussing in his preface was why he took interest in writing such a book... which by the way let me remind the readers here, of how many times you have missed what is right on the cover!

Do answer this, did someone hold a gun in your face to purchase the book? or were you hoping your feeble efforts will get me to appreciate your man/god combo in a different light seeing that I am the only one on this thread who has read said book!


all the best
Reply

جوري
08-13-2009, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
One can find this story anywhere on the web and almost always they are Islamic sites. When you read them you love them because it tells you what you want to hear and I know all you have done is copy from one or more of those sites as if that is a suitable primary source. Why is it that you never look for another interpretation of Luther's supposed words? Not to do so is dishonest. If you were an honest seeker you would have looked for alternative sites which gave a different view.
I have gotten the contents from a christian site, and it is what is found in his book table talk. Pls do purchase it, as I believe the German used is word for word the German of it..

Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: "Whatever has he been doing with her?" Secondly, with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus even Christ, who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died. (D. Martin Luthers Werke, kritische Gesamtausgabe [Hermann Bohlau Verlag, 1893], vol. 2, no. 1472, April 7 - May 1, 1532, p. 33)



This is to be found in Luther's Table-Talk (Weimar edition, vol. ii, page 107) . . . Here is the original: --
Christus adulter. Christus ist am ersten ein ebrecher worden Joh. 4, bei dem brunn cum muliere, quia illi dicebant: Nemo significat, quid facit cum ea? Item cum Magdalena, item cum adultera Joan. 8, die er so leicht davon lies. Also mus der from Christus auch am ersten ein ebrecher werden ehe er starb.
I have no access to the works in question but I did look for an alternative view on the web and used http://aardvarkalley.blogspot.com/20...dalene_19.html Almost all websites have limitation as one cannot usually do the scholarly checks one would want to to check the authors etc. But in summary:
Why don't you purchase the book then and check it against it? you seem hyper vigilant at best when checking Azami against every known source in the universe (if such in fact is in existence) pls go ahead, purchase his book and let's see if that isn't the German word for word and appropriate translation of .. I know of at least two Lutherans who agree with that content, one is my sister in law (who since has converted to Islam) and another is a dear friend, who saw Luther as reformer of the oppression of the catholic church, and believes heavily in said interpretation!
What is the matter can't you exonerate your god from adultery? you've had him do just about everything else, so why not that for the full human experience?

Luther is not the leader of the protestant church, there is no such leader. I might as well argue that Ayatollah, Khomeini was the leader of the Muslim world an important Sufi cleric speaks for all sunni Muslims.
Lutherans are considered a branch of the Protestant Church adhering to the views of Luther. That is actually a common dictionary deifnition, I don't have to search far, thus your analogies crumble upon themselves as usual!
My understanding is that it was John Schlaginhaufen who recorded these quotes back in the spring of 1532 but did not always explain the context in which the sayings were made.
another ridiculous excuse to deflect from the matter, which originally you saying that Azami made such a claim, where I have in fact quoted him citing Luther for said quote, I really don't care for whatever byways and excuses you make thereafter. To be quite frank, if god is human and dies, it really wouldn't matter if he also fornicates!
So we have to ask what was Luther talking about back in 1532? He may have been examining Jesus from the perspective of people at the time of Jesus who were shocked that He ate and drank with "sinners" and that He'd sit and talk one-on-one and in public with a woman. He may have been speaking theologically about these woman being granted forgiveness; Jesus was no passive bystander, He lived among us. While sinless, He took our sins upon Himself that He might fully forgive us.
See above quote, and again, whatever you do to appease yourself about your beliefs is something that you have to amend/excuse/rectify in your own private time. I don't buy into the man/god myth and everything that builds upon that is a Petitio principii. I really don't care to build an argument upon already faulty logic. The reason for said quote is to properly cite Azami, not shelter your ego from the contents of your religion or its branches!
Luther was a man who taught faith in Jesus and one simply cannot imagine he would put such faith in someone who he thought to be an adulterer.
See previous replies. I don't want to now leave religion behind and explore the psyche of a deceased reformer!

If you wish to always accept what you read preferring to pounce on slander rather that use your reason or even accept that there might be a perfectly rational way of explaining these remarks. No, that might be asking too much, you want to believe this is the Christian church slandering its founder so you do. Fine, but I advise you not to rely on websites and the likes of Dan Brown as authority on scriptures or the history of the church
Your advise means very little, you have very slanted views at best, your influenced by your own biases. You can't hold the same alleged integrity to all the texts you approach, you slander, you quote incorrectly, you pass judgment, you derive satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions and are a dynamo of a hyperbole.


all the best
Reply

جوري
08-13-2009, 05:06 PM
Hugo - I refer you to to Azami page 151 where he speak of errors and scribal blunders. I will come back to this page later. I also have referred you to Professor Easak's (a Muslim scholar) work (ISBN 978-1-85168-624-7) page 111 where he says "Uthman's project to compile the Qu'ran was clearly in response to a proliferation of 'unauthorised copies' during his time - partly as the result of the Arabic script of the time"
Esack isn't a 'Muslim scholar' how many times must we define the term? Do you not get tired of repeating bull? Nonetheless, I can be game with that. I'd like for you to show me the disparity between Quranic text as it was, and its evolution not 50 years later, all whilst fully memorized by the same individuals. Go ahead, show me a before and after and how that affects our understanding and reading!

and

"Early Qu'ranic Arabic lacks precision because distingusingt between consonant was impossible given the absence of diacritical marks... All of this leads to endless possibilities in meaning and error in transcription..."
as states, I can be game with that, I'd like to see those endless possibilities and how they have affected our reading. I'll be waiting!
Here you simply repeat the common Islamic view that the Bible was 'concocted' so you dismiss many 1000's of manuscripts, 100s of years of painstaking scholarship and research so ignore therefore any evidence because it does not fit in with you world-view. For you it has no value, even the greatest passages and books - why do that, even if it were not a religious book, what rational person would disregard what is plainly good?
If I take The Quran as the unerring word of God, and by divine order the questionable content of your book has to be discarded. (please do see brother Yusuf's comments of the bible, on the authenticity of the bible thread, and again, I really tire of repeating myself, if you can't keep up I'll have to ask a mod to close this thread as you are irritating at best, but why do you ignore 1000,s of manuscript of the old testament in favor of your NT? Why do you not follow the laws the Jesus was allegedly sent to uphold for the lost sheep of Israel? Why have you abrogated the commandments by authority of Saul and then have the nerve to ask Muslims to be lead astray along with you!
You say you believe in a Bible, an uncorrupted one that no one now can see and where is there any rationality in that?
Indeed, again by authority of the Quran.. furthermore, I have given you a common example of that with the works of Sappho the Greek lyric poet of Lesbos; much admired although only fragments of her poetry have been preserved (6th century BC).
It isn't uncommon for great works to be lost, or redefined. Now, again, I pose the question, if the OT was great work from the same God before he let go of his jealousy and mellowed a little out of remorse, then why do you follow the teachings of dazed disciples and charlatans like saul?


all the best
Reply

Follower
08-13-2009, 06:03 PM
Back to the authenticity of the Quran-

It doesn't matter if you had the original writing on the rocks, bones and leaves- you still have to prove that it was Gabriel that spoke to Mohammad [you can't, it is just one guy saying it is, no witnesses of any kind], that he remembered all the verses correctly and the scribes took down the verses correctly.

Although that would help because then we would know if the verses had truly come down intact from the first time the verse was written down.

Who took which verse from Mohammd and wrote it down?

Why aren't the verses recorded in chronological order?

Who else heard Gabriel?

The only thing that can give any proof that it is from GOD is prophecy given and then later fufilled.
Reply

جوري
08-13-2009, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Back to the authenticity of the Quran-

.
Various testimonies from several witnesses were given you previously by br. Yusuf and myself that have taken care of each of your simple-minded queries at least 20 times previously. If you can't follow two line replies so properly dissected that even your mind can digest it, then don't come on page 16 of a very detailed ongoing thread to spew the same frequent nonsense!
I don't see any wisdom of the mods keeping you here, as you are very emotional and inept at best of defending your position in an academic manner, I suppose it is all for amusement' sake.. I suggest you get learned as you are bringing down the quota for your entire parish!


all the best
Reply

MSalman
08-13-2009, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Back to the authenticity of the Quran-

It doesn't matter if you had the original writing on the rocks, bones and leaves- you still have to prove that it was Gabriel that spoke to Mohammad [you can't, it is just one guy saying it is, no witnesses of any kind], that he remembered all the verses correctly and the scribes took down the verses correctly.
already answered this but if there were any problems, we would have known; it is as simple as that. Your whole argument holds no value, as pointed out already, because this applies to all revealtion of God. Was there any witness to 10 commandments or rest of the bible? So really, what is your point!

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Although that would help because then we would know if the verses had truly come down intact from the first time the verse was written down.
this is not clear, did not get what you are trying to say.

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Who took which verse from Mohammd and wrote it down?
all they companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Why aren't the verses recorded in chronological order?
because the Qur'an is not a history or events book. Who said chronological order is important?

http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_li...an/Ch5S1s4.htm

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Who else heard Gabriel?
angles only come to the Prophets with revelation. Who heard Prophet Moses' (peace be upon him) talk with the Lord when he was given 10 commandments? Why do you trust Moses (peace be upon him) being the only witness for 10 commandments but reject Muhammad (peace be upon him) for the same reason.

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
The only thing that can give any proof that it is from GOD is prophecy given and then later fufilled.
not necessarily! Where is the prophecy for Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc.?

and Allah knows best
Reply

Hugo
08-14-2009, 10:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
agree about scholars

I cant actually be absolutly sure if we take the extreme sceptic approach. So I clearly need faith - to know something we have to have faith in it to start with.
Well I agree, if we are total sceptics we may not be sure of anything. But there are some things we don't need faith for or faith is irrelevant because we cannot avoid them such as gravity. But other than that I more or less agree with you.
Reply

Hugo
08-14-2009, 11:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Esack isn't a 'Muslim scholar' how many times must we define the term? Do you not get tired of repeating bull? Nonetheless, I can be game with that. I'd like for you to show me the disparity between Quranic text as it was, and its evolution not 50 years later, all whilst fully memorized by the same individuals. Go ahead, show me a before and after and how that affects our understanding and reading!

Hugo - why is it that internationally he is recognised as one? You simply define Scholar as someone who you agree with or espouses orthodox views and you often quote from websites as if they have authority. Prophet Mohammed was not a scholar yet you take note of what he says so there is something wrong with the way you view what is said.

Please refer to my earlier post and consider this example quoted by Professor Esack page 111 regarding vowelling marks (tashkil). "...where a simple "u" on the pronoun "h" (his) after the word rasul (prophet) in 9:3 led to the following reading:

That God dissolves obligations toward [both] the pagans and his Prophet

When the vowel "u" on the pronoun is replaced with the vowel "i" the meaning is as follows

That God and his apostle dissolves obligations with pagans"

Original quoted by Hugo - Here you simply repeat the common Islamic view that the Bible was 'concocted' so you dismiss many 1000's of manuscripts, 100s of years of painstaking scholarship ............
If I take The Quran as the unerring word of God, and by divine order the questionable content of your book has to be discarded. (please do see brother Yusuf's comments of the bible, on the authenticity of the bible thread, and again, I really tire of repeating myself, if you can't keep up I'll have to ask a mod to close this thread as you are irritating at best, but why do you ignore 1000,s of manuscript of the old testament in favor of your NT? Why do you not follow the laws the Jesus was allegedly sent to uphold for the lost sheep of Israel? Why have you abrogated the commandments by authority of Saul and then have the nerve to ask Muslims to be lead astray along with you!

Hugo - look at you own words; "If I take the Qur'an...unerring ..." If this is what you believe then I applaud it but since it cannot be shown to be true or false (unerring and divine) it is a fallacy to argue in this way. It will not become scietifically true, unquestionably true by you repeating yourself?

Who ignores the OT as you say, its part of every Christian Bible. You say for example, you believe in the Torah but I don't see it attached to the Qu'ran and as I have said elsewhere by way of example, there are 631 laws in the Torah and many are outdated now because the circumstance and institutions they referred to do not now exist. Just to be silly about it, you are not suggesting that a leper present himself to the priest to check his disease because that is one command? So what are you talking about?

Originally Quoted by Hugo - You say you believe in a Bible, an uncorrupted one that no one now can see and where is there any rationality in that?

Indeed, again by authority of the Quran.. furthermore, I have given you a common example of that with the works of Sappho the Greek lyric poet of Lesbos; much admired although only fragments of her poetry have been preserved (6th century BC).

Hugo - you have NOT given me a copy of this mysterious Torah, Gospel and Psalms that you say you believe in. Of course one can believe that there are lost works but it has no substance and in the case of Sappo it is just a wish that we had access to such work. You see what I find irrational with what you say is that you vigorously defend the Qu'ran against the tiniest corruption and the same time trust in book or books that you have never seen?

It isn't uncommon for great works to be lost, or redefined. Now, again, I pose the question, if the OT was great work from the same God before he let go of his jealousy and mellowed a little out of remorse, then why do you follow the teachings of dazed disciples and charlatans like saul?
Yes it is a pity that great works are lost although understanable in antiquity because of the labour involved in preservation and because like most literature it comes and goes as a vogue as people move on.

Trouble here is you become irrational and let your own desired belief intrude into what should be a rational discussion so here you insult God, the disciples and Paul. Is you own faith so thin it can only be supported by such tactics?

I can (and many have as Azami's book shows) go through the hadith and come to the same kind of conclusions as you about your noble forefathers and its is easily done if you take the biased vindictive viewpoint that you habitually exhibit.

In hope we can now move on to consider some of the points that Dr Azami's book related about the Qu'ran and the Bible to see if we can mutually learn something of value.
Reply

Hugo
08-14-2009, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
No, you are not well aware of the dates. It is a very logical next step to take and logic is not your strong suit. for one thing you're so miffed about Al-Azami missing 'one' yet fail to be conclusive about something that would save you and us, a rather large 4500 as per you read. Where is the clear reference or common sense in that least of which when you've professed your strong aversion for leeching info off the web .. are you a hypocrite? And so what if the website reflects the comments in the book? Are you unable to reason like human beings do, or simply have a desire to create enough of a miasma so others (like brother yusuf) wouldn't purchase the book?

Hugo - I hope others will purchase the book and make their own mind up that is why I gave page numbers so anyone can check the primary source themselves. They do not have to take my word for it do they?

knowing the content of the book, in contrast to the bull you spew here, I have concluded:
1- you have no research integrity and have no system for reasonable judgement!

Hugo - what about your integrity and the kind of malicious language you use is that in the scholarly tradition?

2- you're full of self-justifications for when left cornered for evidence, you come up empty, and surprisingly exempt yourself from the same demands and conditions that you place on others. In fact if you commit yourself to a 16 page thread, why not do yourself and everyone else a grand favor and labor over it like the rest of us have to answer point by point in lieu of bringing the same answered points to the table alleging whilst alleging that no one likes to read 50000 words when it is in fact you who doesn't wish to expend any effort learning!

Hugo - please show me where these self-justifications occurred or where I have not provided evidence when it is available. One might contrast my approach to those who rush off to any old website and copy an answer expecting the rest of us to accept it without question.

3- your usage of words is completely out of congruity with content you write. It isn't sufficient to dress yourself in a nice suit when you haven't taken a bath and stink beneath. Authoritative sounding words on a book that you haven't read past the preface but approached with the intent of discrediting from the outset still doesn't get to make up for contents that come up empty!

lastly, you are under some strange impression that I am looking to discuss contents of this book with you, when I'd actually recommended the book to a fellow Muslim. You are obviously inept at holding up or defending your bible against the mess that it finds itself in, let alone in reference to other scriptures. all the best
You can have no sure knowledge about whether I have read Azami's book nor not so these remarks are without foundation as I shall show as we move through the book. I have all the books I quote from and as you will see I almost never point to or copy from websites because I know and you should know how unreliable they can be.

I have made postings about this book but as far as I know there is no requirement that you or indeed any one respond. If I am inept then that is just part of life, none of us is perfect and I take consolation in that God protects the weak.
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 06:01 PM


Hugo - why is it that internationally he is recognised as one? You simply define Scholar as someone who you agree with or espouses orthodox views and you often quote from websites as if they have authority. Prophet Mohammed was not a scholar yet you take note of what he says so there is something wrong with the way you view what is said.
Recognized as a scholar of what? as we have indeed discussed this a few pages ago, but again just to refresh your memory. Does a person who have a doctorate in cardiology also allowed to perform neurosurgery? Is being learned in one area abridge over to complete knowledge of another?
As for someone who espouses my views, I rather think that is an excellent assessment of yourself and your approach to anything that doesn't agree with your man/god fiasco.
are we comparing prophets to lay men? I am yet to see a book by Esack that will influence people globally and for centuries. So far all we have seen is a one man crusade by your person.


Please refer to my earlier post and consider this example quoted by Professor Esack page 111 regarding vowelling marks (tashkil). "...where a simple "u" on the pronoun "h" (his) after the word rasul (prophet) in 9:3 led to the following reading:

That God dissolves obligations toward [both] the pagans and his Prophet






When the vowel "u" on the pronoun is replaced with the vowel "i" the meaning is as follows

That God and his apostle dissolves obligations with pagans"

وَأَذَانٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى النَّاسِ يَوْمَ الْحَجِّ الأَكْبَرِ أَنَّ اللّهَ بَرِيءٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ وَرَسُولُهُ فَإِن تُبْتُمْ فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّكُمْ غَيْرُ مُعْجِزِي اللّهِ
وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ {3


The 'vowel' 'u' or 'i' will have no bearing on the way the verse is understood whatsoever.The tashkil plays very little part as I will show in my Arabic example below, it is the confirmation of grammatical rules in Arabic that dictate how a sentence is understood and formed, tashkil is but one part, we also have to conform to the rules of lexicon, morphology, syntax, derivation, rhetoric and halat, nominative,genitive and accusative as well the status constructus. If I write:

اكلت ليلي الدجاج or اكلت الدجاج ليلي
notice no 'vowels' used whatsoever. in the first the literal translation would be ' ate the chicken lila' the seconds lila ate the chicken. in the first it would appear from its structure that it is the chicken that is doing the eating .. yet both understood as lila doing the eating .

http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/aljarf/Pub...Morphology.pdf
You are not only doing yourself a great disservice but if this is indeed how superficial the 'best arabic lexicon' in the world is, then it is no wonder that no Arabic speaker has heard of it.. it doesn't appear to be very intellectually penetrative!




Hugo - look at you own words; "If I take the Qur'an...unerring ..." If this is what you believe then I applaud it but since it cannot be shown to be true or false (unerring and divine) it is a fallacy to argue in this way. It will not become scietifically true, unquestionably true by you repeating yourself?
Your applause has no bearing on the veracity of said claim.
You can't apply data to all work, even in certain fields of science, for instance psychiatry, but what you do is set very stringent standards to be met as a reference point, and is usually quite an expansive bell shaped curve as to include the majority of variances in opinions.
Let's say someone is suffering depression.. well it isn't something you can quantify.. there is no depression-o-meter where you place your head, hold on to the bars and then some measurements of your psyche is out in numbers on the paper..
no you come up with a criteria, subjects and researchers as such



  • Loss of interest in normal daily activities
  • Feeling sad or down
  • Feeling hopeless
  • Crying spells for no apparent reason
  • Problems sleeping
  • Trouble focusing or concentrating
  • Difficulty making decisions
  • Unintentional weight gain or loss
  • Irritability
  • Restlessness
  • Being easily annoyed
  • Feeling fatigued or weak
  • Feeling worthless
  • Loss of interest in sex
  • Thoughts of suicide or suicidal behavior
  • Unexplained physical problems, such as back pain or headaches

if a person meets the majority of these said standards then you can give them the diagnosis of depression. The person doing the diagnosis also has to be learned vastly in the field as to recognize it as such and not miss for instance a case of hypothyroidism, or anemia or the one rare case of diphyllobothriasis.

that is why stringent standards are set, so we don't have lay people quoting an equally questionable character and disseminating false info as if it were facts. Anyone familiar with Islamic fiqh, jurisprudence, methodology, knows that no other religion has a more stringent code for narrations, integrity of transmitters and names and dates to back up all the information.. of course the content itself is not nonsensical for what is the point if one to believe mark or john or saul if what they preach is very counter intuitive?


Hugo - you have NOT given me a copy of this mysterious Torah, Gospel and Psalms that you say you believe in. Of course one can believe that there are lost works but it has no substance and in the case of Sappo it is just a wish that we had access to such work. You see what I find irrational with what you say is that you vigorously defend the Qu'ran against the tiniest corruption and the same time trust in book or books that you have never seen?
I don't need to give you a copy of the mysterious Torah, there is no point as the Quran is the final authority, there is no going back to being lost in the desert once you've conquered empires. The case of Sappho is legitimate and recorded historically, and such with the torah as their own admission of their lost books. You find many things irrational, but unfortunately don't seem to see yourself as inconsistent and have complete lack of reason.

Yes it is a pity that great works are lost although understanable in antiquity because of the labour involved in preservation and because like most literature it comes and goes as a vogue as people move on.
I don't understand the relevance of above sentence to the subject matter we are discussing!
Trouble here is you become irrational and let your own desired belief intrude into what should be a rational discussion so here you insult God, the disciples and Paul. Is you own faith so thin it can only be supported by such tactics?
I'd a grievous death before I insult God. Question is really who is insulting? Folks who make god akin to animals, attribute human emotions to him, turn him into an adulterer, a jealous being who almost loses to david in a boxing match, and sleeps with prostitutes, and is jealous that his children take other gods for worship that he smites 'his children', then feels remorse over what he has done. then descends to the earth, to D*** it for not bearing him fruit, then weeps to himself in the garden of Gesthmane, then gets crucified by the people he was sent to, then realizes that he erred so he abrogates his commandements through his nemesis:



Jesus says that our good works are necessary and meaningful (Matt. 5:16; John 10:24-25) while Paul says they are worthless and unnecessary (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:6-14).

Jesus exhorts his followers to strictly adhere to the laws and commandments (Mark 10:18-19; Matt. 19:17; Luke 18:20) while Paul calls the law and commandments a “curse” and “bondage” (Gal. 2:16, 3:11, 24; Rom. 2:13). (SOURCE)

or the ones who believe that:

[2:255]Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).


I think if we were to employ even a 'sliver' of logic the choice would be clear!

In hope we can now move on to consider some of the points that Dr Azami's book related about the Qu'ran and the Bible to see if we can mutually learn something of value.
I don't seek my knowledge from evangelists, and I would ask you to kindly refrain from leaving me PM's with your DSM-IV diagnosis of my psyche...

don't on one thread allege that Muslim women are maltreated in Islam and then come up with some cockamamie account as to why I don't conform to your idea of a Muslim woman.

all the best
Reply

Hugo
08-14-2009, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have gotten the contents from a christian site, and it is what is found in his book table talk. Pls do purchase it, as I believe the German used is word for word the German of it..

Why don't you purchase the book then and check it against it? you seem hyper vigilant at best when checking Azami against every known source in the universe (if such in fact is in existence) pls go ahead, purchase his book and let's see if that isn't the German word for word and appropriate translation of .. I know of at least two Lutherans who agree with that content, one is my sister in law (who since has converted to Islam) and another is a dear friend, who saw Luther as reformer of the oppression of the catholic church, and believes heavily in said interpretation! What is the matter can't you exonerate your god from adultery? you've had him do just about everything else, so why not that for the full human experience?

Hugo - perhaps I will get the book but can you be a little more precise about the edition you have as there are as you know dozen of books covering "table Talk".

Lutherans are considered a branch of the Protestant Church adhering to the views of Luther. That is actually a common dictionary deifnition, I don't have to search far, thus your analogies crumble upon themselves as usual!

Hugo - TRY to be precise, you said Luther was the leader and that was never true. You also make the mistake of saying these are Luther's words but they are words that someone recalled Luther saying and that is who you are citing as I understand it. Even so the allegation are not Biblical ones are they?

See above quote, and again, whatever you do to appease yourself about your beliefs is something that you have to amend/excuse/rectify in your own private time. I don't buy into the man/god myth and everything that builds upon that is a Petitio principii. I really don't care to build an argument upon already faulty logic. The reason for said quote is to properly cite Azami, not shelter your ego from the contents of your religion or its branches!

Hugo - you really don't get it do you, and have no conception that anyone can rationally believe something different to you so your logic is invariably flawed. Let me use your silly argument line above to make it plain. Suppose I say: .. whatever you do to appease yourself about your beliefs is something that you have to amend/excuse/rectify in your own private time. I don't buy into the man in a cave and a message from an angel or someone getting his heart washed with snow myth and everything that builds upon that is circular reasoning.

You commit fallacy after fallacy, your two sisterly witnesses above treated as authorities, you appeal to consequences, you claim things that cannot be shown to be true, begging the question and on.

Your advise means very little, you have very slanted views at best, your influenced by your own biases. You can't hold the same alleged integrity to all the texts you approach, you slander, you quote incorrectly, you pass judgment, you derive satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions and are a dynamo of a hyperbole. all the best
Here we yet more fallacies in your post: ad hominem, guilt (mine) by association, poisoning the well and so on
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 06:47 PM

Hugo - perhaps I will get the book but can you be a little more precise about the edition you have as there are as you know dozen of books covering "table Talk".
Find something original with the German side by side translation. it isn't difficult to do!


Hugo - TRY to be precise, you said Luther was the leader and that was never true. You also make the mistake of saying these are Luther's words but they are words that someone recalled Luther saying and that is who you are citing as I understand it. Even so the allegation are not Biblical ones are they?
I think one should employ common sense when reading, if the allegations are biblical or not, you yourself seem to have had trouble quoting Al-Azami' for when I quoted directly from the book he referenced to table talk..Again, I fail to see why you make demands from others from which you are exempt?

Hugo - you really don't get it do you, and have no conception that anyone can rationally believe something different to you so your logic is invariably flawed. Let me use your silly argument line above to make it plain. Suppose I say: .. whatever you do to appease yourself about your beliefs is something that you have to amend/excuse/rectify in your own private time. I don't buy into the man in a cave and a message from an angel or someone getting his heart washed with snow myth and everything that builds upon that is circular reasoning.
It would indeed be true, if the Quranic content was comparable to your biblical content in context and collection which it isn't.. the illiterate man in the cave brought us the Quran and the hadith very distinctively different and you are yet to establish if not from God then from whom.. whereas Jesus' miracles died with him, the Quran is God's living miracle!
You commit fallacy after fallacy, your two sisterly witnesses above treated as authorities, you appeal to consequences, you claim things that cannot be shown to be true, begging the question and on.
of stuff and nonsense.. if you have something or relevance to impart as pertains to the thread or something I have written then bring it on. I told you before that your observations mean very little, as I don't value your opinion for reasons of your own making!


Here we yet more fallacies in your post: ad hominem, guilt (mine) by association, poisoning the well and so on
It isn't considered ad homs if we are using erroneous premises accepted by you to argue against an opposition we are merely pointing out the fact of the matter.. you misidentify fallacies and expect us to go by your chosen definitions..

all the best

Reply

Hugo
08-14-2009, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Recognized as a scholar of what? as we have indeed discussed this a few pages ago, but again just to refresh your memory. Does a person who have a doctorate in cardiology also allowed to perform neurosurgery? Is being learned in one area abridge over to complete knowledge of another?

Hugo - Esack is recognised as an Islamic scholar - why don't you get the book and test it for yourself then we can discuss it properly. Whilst I agree with you that we need experts that does not mean that the rest of us are idiots either or experts are always right. One can be the most eminent scientist in the world but an absolute fool when it comes to putting a bit of Ikea together. It cannot one hopes have escaped you that what is expert knowledge today can be totally obsolete tomorrow

As for someone who espouses my views, I rather think that is an excellent assessment of yourself and your approach to anything that doesn't agree with your man/god fiasco.

Hugo - this is obliviously false because I have read all I can get me hands on from Khomeine to Bernard Lewis. I am not the one who dismisses writers without argument or grabs from the nearest website am I?

are we comparing prophets to lay men? I am yet to see a book by Esack that will influence people globally and for centuries. So far all we have seen is a one man crusade by your person.

Hugo - this now become preposterous - Jesus, Paul, the disciples influenced billions yet you never fail to denigrate them. Prophets are people and as far as we can tell God rarely selected the bright and beautiful did he?

The 'vowel' 'u' or 'i' will have no bearing on the way the verse is understood whatsoever. The tashkil plays very little part as I will show in my Arabic example below, it is the confirmation of grammatical rules in Arabic that dictate how a sentence is understood and formed, tashkil is but one part, we also have to conform to the rules of lexicon, morphology, syntax, derivation, rhetoric and halat, nominative,genitive and accusative as well the status constructus. If I write:

notice no 'vowels' used whatsoever. in the first the literal translation would be ' ate the chicken lila' the seconds lila ate the chicken. in the first it would appear from its structure that it is the chicken that is doing the eating .. yet both understood as lila doing the eating .

Hugo - it is nonsense to say that the use of vowels has no bearding but if you say that Professor Easck is wrong then I think you have to show us your scholarly qualifications or point us to a suitable source. I am not doing anyone a disservices, you asked for example and I provided from from a reliable source. The idea that NO Arabic speaker has heard of Lane's lexicon is so absurd it is not worth a comment.

You can't apply data to all work .. Let's say someone is suffering depression.. well it isn't something you can quantify.. there is no depression-o-meter where you place your head, hold on to the bars and then some measurements of your psyche is out in numbers on the paper..no you come up with a criteria, subjects and researchers as such. Loss of interest in normal daily activities, Feeling sad or down, Feeling hopeless etc.

Hugo - you seem not to quite understand what you are saying and have no conception of what data might mean. In your example the list of items is a list of the data you want to collect - one cannot diagnose just by having the list, you have to see the patient and add a yes or no to each item. Its not numbers of course but have you never heard of any other kind of data?

Anyone familiar with Islamic fiqh, jurisprudence, methodology, knows that no other religion has a more stringent code for narrations, integrity of transmitters and names and dates to back up all the information.. of course the content itself is not nonsensical for what is the point if one to believe mark or john or saul if what they preach is very counter intuitive?

Hugo - have you never looked at the way Rabbi's work? I shall have more to say on the issues of methodology later.

I don't need to give you a copy of the mysterious Torah, there is no point as the Quran is the final authority, there is no going back to being lost in the desert once you've conquered empires. The case of Sappho is legitimate and recorded historically, and such with the torah as their own admission of their lost books. You find many things irrational, but unfortunately don't seem to see yourself as inconsistent and have complete lack of reason.

Hugo - if its of no significance why do you mention it? The Torah is not one book but 5 and I have a copy of them and so do billions of others. Even Azami admits that what we have today goes back at least about 2,500 years. Where is the irrationality in me having the Torah and you talking about a Torah that you cannot see

I'd a grievous death before I insult God. Question is really who is insulting? Folks who make god akin to animals, attribute human emotions to him, turn him into an adulterer, a jealous being who almost loses to david in a boxing match, and sleeps with prostitutes, and is jealous that his children take other gods for worship that he smites 'his children', then feels remorse over what he has done. then descends to the earth, to D*** it for not bearing him fruit, then weeps to himself in the garden of Gesthmane, then gets crucified by the people he was sent to, then realizes that he erred so he abrogates his commandements through his nemesis:

Hugo - Christians and Jews have beliefs and YOU regularly insult them and in so doing insult God. I can give long list of Muslim beliefs and pour score on them but I have more respect and simple humanity than to do that.

Jesus says that our good works are necessary and meaningful (Matt. 5:16; John 10:24-25) while Paul says they are worthless and unnecessary (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:6-14).

Hugo - its always better to go to the sources not just copy from a website. Consider.

Matthew 5:16 (NIV) 16. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV) 8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9. not by works, so that no one can boast.

It is obvious that Jesus is saying our God works bring honour to God and Paul is saying salvation is a Gift and not something we have earned. You are muddled over the idea of Law, of course we should try to keep is but Paul is saying it has proved impossible. Is it possible in Islam, can a Muslim keep all the law faultlessly?

[2:255]Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). I think if we were to employ even a 'sliver' of logic the choice would be clear!

Hugo - let me say it again, do you think out works can dishonour God, bring shame on his name? Do you think that anyone can fulfil all the laws demands. This question must be applicable to Muslims and Christians and Jews alike?

I don't seek my knowledge from evangelists, and I would ask you to kindly refrain from leaving me PM's with your DSM-IV diagnosis of my psyche...

Hugo - this really is the pot calling the kettle black

don't on one thread allege that Muslim women are maltreated in Islam and then come up with some cockamamie account as to why I don't conform to your idea of a Muslim woman.
Where have I alleged the Muslim woman are maltreated any more than any other woman or man. Why change the subject, what relevance can it have in this thread? When have I said you don't conform my idea of Muslim woman - this is fantasy?
Reply

Hugo
08-14-2009, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Find something original with the German side by side translation. it isn't difficult to do!

I think one should employ common sense when reading, if the allegations are biblical or not, you yourself seem to have had trouble quoting Al-Azami' for when I quoted directly from the book he referenced to table talk..Again, I fail to see why you make demands from others from which you are exempt?

It would indeed be true, if the Quranic content was comparable to your biblical content in context and collection which it isn't.. the illiterate man in the cave brought us the Quran and the hadith very distinctively different and you are yet to establish if not from God then from whom.. whereas Jesus' miracles died with him, the Quran is God's living miracle!

of stuff and nonsense.. if you have something or relevance to impart as pertains to the thread or something I have written then bring it on. I told you before that your observations mean very little, as I don't value your opinion for reasons of your own making!

It isn't considered ad homs if we are using erroneous premises accepted by you to argue against an opposition we are merely pointing out the fact of the matter.. you misidentify fallacies and expect us to go by your chosen definitions..
1. I take it that you cannot give precise reference to "Table Talk" - when you can let me know and I will try to get a copy. I can find lots of possible books but if it is so simple please give the ref you have for your copy?

2. As far as I know I quoted Azami correctly but also gave the page references so there would be no dispute about what was said. My view is that is the proper way to deal with a text.

3. If you don't value my opinion that is an entirely acceptable position and one my wife often takes but she at least allows me to have them.

4. With regard to ad hominem it is acceptable that you try to undermine my credibility just as I have attempted to do with Dr Azami but that cannot undermine my reasoning and that is why your oft repeated ad hominem allegations lead to fallacious reasoning on your part. Anyone with a passing acquaintance with your postings will sadly see that often you resort to unkind and unfounded remarks about a persons intelligence or motives.
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 08:41 PM


Hugo - Esack is recognised as an Islamic scholar - why don't you get the book and test it for yourself then we can discuss it properly. Whilst I agree with you that we need experts that does not mean that the rest of us are idiots either or experts are always right. One can be the most eminent scientist in the world but an absolute fool when it comes to putting a bit of Ikea together. It cannot one hopes have escaped you that what is expert knowledge today can be totally obsolete tomorrow
No, he isn't a Muslim scholar (we have gone over that definition before).. and I have indeed made the point previously using 'Dr. John Martin' as to how scholars can fall out of grace. So what exactly are you doing now? I don't understand, you wish to retract your previous comments?
His work should be tested for correctitude not against his PhD. which again doesn't extend to Islamic studies Just judging from the error in what you'd alleged to which I gave a similar Arabic example without tashkeel. Furthermore, I am yet to see any variations in reading for the same people who brought us 'tashkeel' are the same ones who had it memorized and written down without it. The Quran is still an oral tradition for I have a large chunk of it memorized and many here have it fully memorized. So when you or another fellow, even a Muslim (as was the comment by one in the hereafter thread) I need not check the verse he quoted against the Quran to know he quoted incorrectly.
We had two witnesses down for every aya that was written, by those who had memorized and recited it directly to the messenger.. so what is your point. Pls define your ill point as I see no possibility of me granting this courtesy another 16 pages.. I am not enjoying this ride!

Hugo - this is obliviously false because I have read all I can get me hands on from Khomeine to Bernard Lewis. I am not the one who dismisses writers without argument or grabs from the nearest website am I?

Really, it wasn't you who not two pages ago on this very thread accused Dr. Al_azami for plagerism for content you found on a web? and didn't even bother do the honors of checking the dates to see which came first? that wasn't you, I imagined it? It is like my dear grandma (May Allah swt yer7mha) used to say, prevaricators have the worst memory!



Hugo - this now become preposterous - Jesus, Paul, the disciples influenced billions yet you never fail to denigrate them. Prophets are people and as far as we can tell God rarely selected the bright and beautiful did he?
Your man/god didn't select the bright or the beautiful. That is your version of things, Jesus (p) and God are innocent of what you write against them and what you make them out to be and the false attributions.. I am yet to see you comment on the disparity between Jesus' teachings and those of paul as per my previous thread.. How do you reconcile that?

Hugo - it is nonsense to say that the use of vowels has no bearding but if you say that Professor Easck is wrong then I think you have to show us your scholarly qualifications or point us to a suitable source. I am not doing anyone a disservices, you asked for example and I provided from from a reliable source. The idea that NO Arabic speaker has heard of Lane's lexicon is so absurd it is not worth a comment.
The use of vowels indeed has no bearing on the sentence and I have gone ahead and given similar examples without tashkeel whatsoever. My qualifications is that Arabic is my mother tongue and I am learned in it. as opposed to forming a secondary opinion at face value. I am yet to see you bring me the variant readings from the Quran then and now for Esak's comments as per Quran to actually be of value. And indeed, though it may be hard for you to believe, folks will go to school and not use Easck as a source for Arabic Lexicon.


Hugo - you seem not to quite understand what you are saying and have no conception of what data might mean. In your example the list of items is a list of the data you want to collect - one cannot diagnose just by having the list, you have to see the patient and add a yes or no to each item. Its not numbers of course but have you never heard of any other kind of data?
Do you read everything written before you write? just considering how often you end up with a foot in your mouth or do you like to play dumb?
here please let me requote myself: even in certain fields of science, for instance psychiatry, but what you do is set very stringent standards to be met as a reference point, and is usually quite an expansive bell shaped curve as to include the majority of variances in opinions.
Let's say someone is suffering depression.. well it isn't something you can quantify.. there is no depression-o-meter where you place your head, hold on to the bars and then some measurements of your psyche is out in numbers on the paper.


followed by:

The person doing the diagnosis also has to be learned vastly in the field as to recognize it as such and not miss for instance a case of hypothyroidism, or anemia or the one rare case of diphyllobothriasis.

are you able to process information like the rest of us? clearly somethings can't be subjected to the 'typical' research method, in which case you find some other means to do it. You want to discuss how to diagnose and manage a patient with me cowboy, then nothing would give me greater pleasure!

Hugo - have you never looked at the way Rabbi's work? I shall have more to say on the issues of methodology later.
What does this have to do with 'authenticity of the Quran' or an answer as to why you remain a christian regardless of how Rabbi's work.. you do realize that Rabbis look at Mary as a common street walker (astghfor Allah) if that is the sort of work you enjoy then by all means be my guest!


Hugo - if its of no significance why do you mention it? The Torah is not one book but 5 and I have a copy of them and so do billions of others. Even Azami admits that what we have today goes back at least about 2,500 years. Where is the irrationality in me having the Torah and you talking about a Torah that you cannot see
My question remains, why aren't you a Jew if you see such great value in the Torah? why do you not follow its laws?

Hugo - Christians and Jews have beliefs and YOU regularly insult them and in so doing insult God. I can give long list of Muslim beliefs and pour score on them but I have more respect and simple humanity than to do that.
The man you worship isn't God, and Jesus is innocent from all that you attribute to him. I don't mock God, I question the absurdity of your belief system which you expect others to subscribe to. Isn't that what you are after given you previous comment. of my belief crumbling if someone proves it wrong? well I am still waiting!

Jesus says that our good works are necessary and meaningful (Matt. 5:16; John 10:24-25) while Paul says they are worthless and unnecessary (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:6-14).

Hugo - its always better to go to the sources not just copy from a website. Consider.
Matthew 5:16 (NIV) 16. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV) 8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9. not by works, so that no one can boast.
It is obvious that Jesus is saying our God works bring honour to God and Paul is saying salvation is a Gift and not something we have earned. You are muddled over the idea of Law, of course we should try to keep is but Paul is saying it has proved impossible. Is it possible in Islam, can a Muslim keep all the law faultlessly?
You bringing the source hasn't really changed meaning. Jesus and Paul at odds and Jesus doesn't seem to be speaking about himself he doesn't say (show me your good deeds and praise me) how do you reconcile that? Also try to stick to the point of the quote before making the leap to question other religions.
but to answer your Q, The laws are important indeed and good Muslims uphold them yes!
You can't desire for something and then work against it. You can't say you love your mother and then steal from her purse because going without desert has proven difficult. and well she loves you anyway and forgives all your sins in advance so you are free to commit them!


Hugo - let me say it again, do you think out works can dishonour God, bring shame on his name? Do you think that anyone can fulfil all the laws demands. This question must be applicable to Muslims and Christians and Jews alike?
I think you dishonor yourself, God is above all you ascribe unto him, and good Muslims do fulfill all their religious obligations..or at least know they are at fault for not fulfilling them, and not simply exempt because some nameless self-appointed apostle said so. I don't follow the religion or find value in a religion that reduces God to men, or where God forsakes after giving his word for something so anticlimactic as eating my sins for me.

Hugo - this really is the pot calling the kettle black
I don't see how, if I had remote interest in 'Muslimizing' don't you think I'd be rubbing elbows with Christians on their own site showing them the errors of their ways, which in fact would be quite easy for me to do?
Where have I alleged the Muslim woman are maltreated any more than any other woman or man. Why change the subject, what relevance can it have in this thread? When have I said you don't conform my idea of Muslim woman - this is fantasy?
You should go re-read your post under 'things in Islam I am curious about' as to my fantasy, well I certainly wasn't the one who left you a PM message stating:
I wish I could understand why you do it - is there something in your past, has someone hurt you?
a little schmaltzy for my personal taste.. but no, no one in my past has hurt me, try not to loan yourself to linear thoughts, it makes it even less interesting to engage you, not that I think that would possible at this stage!

all the best
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
1. I take it that you cannot give precise reference to "Table Talk" - when you can let me know and I will try to get a copy. I can find lots of possible books but if it is so simple please give the ref you have for your copy?
Go get yourself an original English/German copy and then come question me on where I have gotten it from.. deal?
Books that quote the original author don't differ! I have played chess alot and your moves are stale and predictable!
2. As far as I know I quoted Azami correctly but also gave the page references so there would be no dispute about what was said. My view is that is the proper way to deal with a text.
You in fact haven't, you attributed to him saying it directly about the bible, when I quoted him directly referencing table talk with page number. one of us is obviously dishonest .. any guess as to who?
3. If you don't value my opinion that is an entirely acceptable position and one my wife often takes but she at least allows me to have them.
I am sure you make up for your short comings with her in other ways :smile:

4. With regard to ad hominem it is acceptable that you try to undermine my credibility just as I have attempted to do with Dr Azami but that cannot undermine my reasoning and that is why your oft repeated ad hominem allegations lead to fallacious reasoning on your part. Anyone with a passing acquaintance with your postings will sadly see that often you resort to unkind and unfounded remarks about a persons intelligence or motives.
I undermine your credibility by directly quoting you, that which is overt to the naked eye and that which you have left in private. All those who are acquainted with my work have indeed left me their impressions in the feedback two in the past day were from Christians.. So I suppose this thunderous testimony of yours is as usual, all smoke and mirrors...
I'd keep with the topic and not meander it to assumed personal glories...


all the best
Reply

Follower
08-14-2009, 09:19 PM
islamiclife - "Was there any witness to 10 commandments or rest of the bible?"

"...angles only come to the Prophets with revelation. Who heard Prophet Moses' (peace be upon him) talk with the Lord when he was given 10 commandments? Why do you trust Moses (peace be upon him) being the only witness for 10 commandments but reject Muhammad (peace be upon him) for the same reason."

I have mentioned on another thread that miracles were given to Moses. When Gabriel went to Mary he also went to Joseph in a dream.

It is very worrisome to me that Gabriel squeezed Mohammad terrified him, caused him to run home to his wife in fear and with worry. When Gabriel went to the people in the Holy Bible he was always reassuring.

If we had the original quranic verses as they were first written we could easily see if the message had remained unchanged.

We know that the different companions of Mohammad if they could write kept their own separate notes of what Mohammad revealed- where are those notes of each of the separate companions? Where are the verses written on the bones- the leaves of course would have not last but the bones would.

Here is an example at what I am trying to get at- we have the early church fathers and students of the Disciples that quoted and referenced the Holy Bible in their writtings so we know that the Gospel we have today is the one from the Disciples that followed Jesus.

"Who said chronological order is important?"
The site you linked to explains that and it might also help those that do not know which verses have been exchanged for better verses.

No I didn't mean prophecies of the individuals but of the book -the Holy Bible have prophecies written in it that didn't come true until many years after the fact to prove that it is from GOD. I guess in the Quran's/Mohammad's case it is just his prophecies that I am wondering about.
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Hugo
08-14-2009, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer
No, he isn't a Muslim scholar.. and I have indeed made the point previously using 'Dr. John Martin' as to how scholars can fall out of grace. So what exactly are you doing now? I don't understand, you wish to retract your previous comments? Hugo - you consider him not to be a scholar, let's leave it at that. I am not retracting anything, the section I quoted from his book is perfectly rational but if you refuse to see it in that light there is nothing I or anyone can do

His work should be tested for correctitude not against his PhD. which again doesn't extend to Islamic studies Just judging from the error of the sentence you quoted. Furthermore, I am yet to see any variations in reading for the same people who brought us 'tashkeel' are the same ones who had it memorized and written down without it. The Quran is still an oral tradition for I have a large chunk of it memorized and many here have it fully memorized. So when you or another fellow, even a Muslim (as was the comment on the hereafter thread) I need not check the verse he quoted against the Quran to know he quoted incorrectly. We had two witnesses down for every aya, who had memorized and recited it directrly to the messanger.. so what is your point. Hugo - you looked it up in your Qu'ran, that is not in anyway the same as looking at the original as it was written down is it 1,400 years ago. Professor Esack is simply pointing out difficulties and to deny them as you do is foolish.

Really, it wasn't you who not two pages ago on this very thread accused Dr. Al_azami for plagerism for content you found on a web? and didn't even do the honors of checking the dates to see which came first? that wasn't you, I imagined it? Hugo - I did not as I recall accusing him of plagiarism, I said there was a case to answer as someone has copied. I did not find the content using google I used a proprietary piece of software that searches for any documents, websites, journals and so on for similarities so I had no hand in being selective or painting the picture any worse than it is and to do it I used your posting of quotations from Azami's book. I did check the date but it is NOT conclusive as I explained and there may well be a third party involved.

Your man/god didn't select the bright or the beautiful. Jesus (p) and God are innocent of what you write against them and what you make them out to be.. I am yet to see you comment on the disparity between Jesus' teachings and those of paul as per my previous thread.. How do you reconcile that? Hugo - I have posted a response please read it before you speak.

The use of vowels indeed has no bearing on the sentence and I have gone ahead and given similar examples without tashkeel whatsoever. My qualifications is that Arabic is my mother tongue and I am learned in it. as opposed to forming a secondary opinion at face value. I am yet to see you bring me the variant readings from the Quran then and now for Esak's comments as per Quran to actually be of value. And indeed, though it may be hard for you to believe that folks will go to school and not use Easck as a source for Arabic Lexicon. Hugo - how many examples would you like? Of course you can give examples without tashkeel but that does not mean they don't exist does it and that difficulties over meaning can therefore arise? The same is true for Hebrew and no doubt you would think it is a serious problem there or are you happy to accept that it causes no difficulty with finding meaning in the Hebrew Bible?

Do you read everything written before you write? just considering how often you end up with a foot in your mouth or do you like to play dumb? here please let me requote myself: even in certain fields of science, for instance psychiatry, but what you do is set very stringent standards to be met as a reference point, and is usually quite an expansive bell shaped curve as to include the majority of variances in opinions. Let's say someone is suffering depression.. well it isn't something you can quantify.. there is no depression-o-meter where you place your head, hold on to the bars and then some measurements of your psyche is out in numbers on the paper. Hugo - this just shows how little coherence your answers have. If there is a bell shaped curve how was it developed without real data? So on the one hand you say its bell shaped meaning numerical data must be involved and then you say it cannot be quantified. Why don't you go and think about qualitative and quantitative or things like nominal, ordinal and interval and ratio scales and then come back.

are you able to process information like the rest of us? clearely somethings can't be subjected to the 'typical' reaearch method, in which case you find some other means to do it. You want to discuss how to diagnose and manage a patient with me cowboy, then nothing would give me greater pleasure! Hugo - yes let us do that; so how do you do it and I will begin by asking do you collect ANY data at all during diagnoses?

What does this have to do with 'authenticity of the Quran' or an answer as to why you remain a christian regardless of how Rabbi's work.. you do realize that Rabbis look at Mary as a common street walker (astghfor Allah) if that is the sort of work you enjoy then by all means be my guest! Hugo - I take it you mean ALL rabbi's? I suggest you read a simple introduction such as "The Jewish People: Their history and their religion, ISBN 0-14-015491-4 (Penguin).

My question remains, why aren't you a Jew if you see such great value in the Torah? why do you not follow its laws? Hugo - one supposes I can ask you the same question? I do value the Torah but I like most Jews know there are 631 laws and regulations commanded by God BUT as I have said before on many occasions that often the circumstances and institutions to which they apply now no longer exist. We all adhere to the 10 commandments, the moral laws, and one cannot do better that that - would you not agree? It must one suppose be the same in Islam, you have laws about slavery for instance but slavery now no longer exists does it so those laws are now museum pieces - is that not so?.

The man you worship isn't God, and Jesus is innocent from all that you attribute to him. I don't mock God, I question the absurdity of your belief system which you expect others to subscribe to. Isn't that what you are after given you previous comment. of my belief crumbling if someone proves it wrong? well I am still waiting! Hugo - we don't seem to be getting anywhere because you refuse or perhaps cannot get your mind to accept that others might think your belief system is an absurdity, I do not wish to be disrespectful but: walking round a building, throwing stones at the devil, jins and so on. I have nowhere as far as I know tried to evangelise on this board - it is not allowed and rightly so.

Why would I want to 'prove' your beliefs to be wrong, I regard them as personal to you I am not looking for scalps. We discuss but for me its about sharing not destroying and I have learned a good deal in this board. My concern is that you accept that others can hold their beliefs as strongly an deeply as you do with perfect rationality so there is no need to mock or abuse one another is there?

You bringing the source hasn't really changed what it actually means. Jesus and Paul at odds, how do you reconcile that? Hugo - I explained the meaning, you don't accept it then there is little I can do

Also try to stick to the point of the quote before making the leap to question other religions. but to answer your Q, The laws are important indeed and good Muslims uphold them yes! You can't desire for something and then work against it. You can't say you love your mother and then steal from her purse because going without desert has proven difficult. and well she loves you anyway and forgives all your sins in advance so you are free to commit them! Hugo - no Christian worthy of the name would say that the law is not important or ignore the 10 commandments and so strive to live holy and useful lives devoted to God's service on that we can agree. No Christian would say God loves us so we can do what we like and still get forgiveness, if we love God then we cannot even think it would be right to abuse his love in any way and to do so would only prove you have no love for God - do you agree?.

I think you dishonor yourself, God is above all you ascribe unto him, and good Muslims do fulfill all their religious obligations..or at least know they are at fault for not fulfilling them, and not simply exempt because some nameless self-appointed apostle said so. Hugo - I am sure they do but I don't think of not doing wrong or engaging in acts of worship as an obligation, I think of it as a demonstration that I love God and want to please him and be useful in all I do. As a pale analogy, when I first met my wife I would have done anything for her not out of any obligation but out of love and the love she showed me. Even now many years later, to hurt her in any way would cause me the utmost pain - do you see what I mean?

I don't see how, if I had remote interest in 'Muslimizing' don't you think I'd be rubbing elbows with Christians on their own site showing them the errors of their ways, which in fact would be quite easy for me to do? Hugo - you must go your own way and do what you think is right for you. I have no other comment here.

You should go re-read your post under 'things in ISlam I am curious about' as to my fantasy, well I certainly wasn't the one who left you a PM message stating: a little schmaltzy for my personal taste.. but no, no one in my past has hurt me, try not to loan yourself to linear thoughts, it makes it even less interesting to engage you, not that I think that would possible at this stage!
No one but you and I would have any idea what the above section is about and that is how it should remain. As always in this board there is no compulsion to join in and any one can ignore anyone else without a crime being committed. Peace and blessing upon you.
Reply

Hugo
08-14-2009, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Go get yourself an original English/German copy and then come question me on where I have gotten it from.. deal?Books that quote the original author don't differ! I have played chess alot and your moves are stale and predictable!

Hugo - DEAL, I will get a possible list and let you have it then we can proceed. Sadly, any quote can also be a misquote so you are not right there that is whyb we always need the primary source - check!


You in fact haven't, you attributed to him saying it directly about the bible, when I quoted him directly referencing table talk with page number. one of us is obviously dishonest .. any guess as to who?

Hugo - not quite, I said he made accusation about Jesus, David and Solomon but that his accusation about Jesus could NOT be found in the Bible. It was you quite helpfully who suggested where Azami got the information from.

I undermine your credibility by directly quoting you, that which is overt to the naked eye and that which you have left in private. All those who are acquainted with my work have indeed left me their impressions in the feedback two in the past day were from Christians.. So I suppose this thunderous testimony of yours is as usual, all smoke and mirrors...
I'd keep with the topic and not meander it to assumed personal glories...
all the best
I have no comment to make on innuendo and half truth?
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