The Character of God

[Ben]

God, as a perfect being, must be all-loving. The Qur’an says, “On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love” (19:96). So the Qur’an assures us of God’s love for the God-fearing and the good-doers, but he has no love for unbelievers or sinners, as can be seen throughout the Qur’an: God loves not unbelievers, God loves not the impious and sinful, God loves not evildoers, God loves not the proud, God loves not transgressors. Thus, in the Islamic conception, God is not all-loving. His love is partial and has to be merited. The Muslim God loves only those who first love him. Thus, it seems to me that Muslims revere a God who is morally deficient. This is a stark contrast to the all-loving God described in the Bible.

Thoughts?

['Abd-al Latif]

The Muslim God loves only those who first love him. Thus, it seems to me that Muslims revere a God who is morally deficient. This is a stark contrast to the all-loving God described in the Bible.

First, it's not a 'Muslim god'. He is the Lord of all the heavens and the earth and all that exists. Allah is just the arabic word for god.

Second, are those who are pious and righetous the same as those who are evil and rebelious? No they are not. Even in court the testimony of a previously convicted criminal will hold no weight over a honest respected police officer.

And third, if god in the bible is all love then what's the concept of hell about and why will people doomed for eternity for rejecting jesus? The concept of love in the bible just provokes emotion, not spirituality, so emotion (i.e love) cannot be used as a basis for religion.

[rk9414]

God, as a perfect being, must be all-loving. The Qur’an says, “On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love” (19:96). So the Qur’an assures us of God’s love for the God-fearing and the good-doers, but he has no love for unbelievers or sinners, as can be seen throughout the Qur’an: God loves not unbelievers, God loves not the impious and sinful, God loves not evildoers, God loves not the proud, God loves not transgressors. Thus, in the Islamic conception, God is not all-loving. His love is partial and has to be merited. The Muslim God loves only those who first love him. Thus, it seems to me that Muslims revere a God who is morally deficient. This is a stark contrast to the all-loving God described in the Bible.

Thoughts?

I hope this video clarifies this issue from both the Christian and Islamic perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obwQO...eature=related

[Jon Paul]

First, it's not a 'Muslim god'. He is the Lord of all the heavens and the earth and all that exists. Allah is just the arabic word for god.

I agree with you, however bare in mind many Christian's object to the "Islamic god" and the "Judaic god" as being God because Judaism and Islam do not hold to the Holy Trinity.

Personally I believe Islam and Judaism keep to the same God with a rather imperfect understanding of Him.

Second, are those who are pious and righetous the same as those who are evil and rebelious? No they are not. Even in court the testimony of a previously convicted criminal will hold no weight over a honest respected police officer.

Yes, a pious and righteous man is the same as an evil and rebelious man in that they are both children of God. They are both made in the image and likeness of God, they both have rational and eternal souls and they both have Free Will. That is where the sameness ends, of course. But it's key to my next point.

And third, if god in the bible is all love then what's the concept of hell about and why will people doomed for eternity for rejecting jesus? The concept of love in the bible just provokes emotion, not spirituality, so emotion (i.e love) cannot be used as a basis for religion.

Allow me please, to quote St Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Dcotor.

"God loves all existing things. For all existing things, in so far as they exist, are good, since the existence of a thing is itself a good; and likewise, whatever perfection it possesses. It is known that God's will is the cause of all things. It must needs be, therefore, that a thing has existence, or any kind of good, only inasmuch as it is willed by God. To every existing thing, then, God wills some good. Hence, since to love anything is nothing else than to will good to that thing, it is manifest that God loves everything that exists. Yet not as we love. Because since our will is not the cause of the goodness of things, but is moved by it as by its object, our love, whereby we will good to anything, is not the cause of its goodness; but conversely its goodness, whether real or imaginary, calls forth our love, by which we will that it should preserve the good it has, and receive besides the good it has not, and to this end we direct our actions: whereas the love of God infuses and creates goodness." - Pt. 1 Q. 20 Art. 2 pp. 6, Summa Theologica

I hope this helps clarify God's love in a Christ (Catholic) conception.

Regards,
JP.

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[Ben]

'Abd-al Latif, sorry I said the “Muslim God.” My bad…I guess I should have said the “Muslim conception of God.” This seems to be just a niggling point.

Of course the pious is not the same as the evil-doer. The problem is that Allah loves not the impious and sinful. Over and over again the Qur’an declares that Allah does not love the very people that the Bible says God love so much that he sent his only son to die for them. Thus Allah is not perfectly moral.

Well, 'Abd-al Latif, people who reject Allah are going to hell, too, so it seems futile to raise this point since it’s consistent in both of our beliefs. The difference, however, is that God, as described in the Bible, loves sinners. God “desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Timothy 2:4). But as consistent as a drumbeat throughout the Qur’an, Allah loves only those who love him. Allah’s love is partial, but this is inconsistent with the necessary all-loving nature of God, thus making Allah morally deficient.

[Imam]

Allah’s love is partial, but this is inconsistent with the necessary all-loving nature of God, thus making Allah morally deficient.

Jesus love is partial .too


"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father."
If you follow Jesus' teachings, God will love you -- otherwise... well, you know. 14:21

"He that is not with me is against me." 12:30


15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.


Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50


3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.



All loving God is totally inconsistent with one god who is taking vengeance on those who don't accept his conditions to be saved...



I don't care of him saying in every page of the New Testament ,
'I'm all loving God'

as long as ,by his own acts of vengeance on them those who reject to believe in his gospel , he proves

'I'm loving God on conditions'

God “desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Timothy 2:4)

but He knows that a minority that will accept him, if he is all loving he wouldn't make this condition,rather making salvation without conditions.

[Ali_008]

:sl:
Brother Ben, I get your point. You see in the Glorious Qur'an wherever you have this "Allah loveth not... " before that statement is an action mentioned like :

In Surah Al Baqarah (Surah # 2) verse 276:
Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity: For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.

In Surah Ale - Imran (Surah # 3) verse 32
Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

In Surah Al A'raf (Surah # 7) verse 31
O Children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: eat and drink: But waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters.

So Allah Subhaanahu Wa Taala gives us the commandments about what is to be enjoined and what is to be forbidden and he also tells us the consequence of not doing so. Moreover, Allah keeps on repeating in almost every chapter of the Qur'an that he loves those who repent, believe and do righteous deeds. Though Allah clearly states what he dislikes but he also says to us that he doesn't like to punish and hate us in

Surah An Nisa (Surah # 4 ) verse 147
What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe?

Allah loves all because everything is his creation and it angers him when his creation rebels. And these kind of verses are present in the Bible as well, you see in:

Psalms 7:11
God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day.

Psalms 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:

17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,

18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,

19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.


Malachi 1: 2-3
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob,
3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

Psalsm 5:4-5
4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;
with you the wicked cannot dwell.

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong.


:w:

[Jon Paul]

Jesus love is partial .too

No it isn't my friend. For the reasons I gave above.

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father."
If you follow Jesus' teachings, God will love you -- otherwise... well, you know. 14:21

By love, and the observance of His commandments, that will be perfected in us which He has begun, viz. that we should be in Him, and He in us. And that this blessedness may be understood to be promised to all, not to the Apostles only, He adds, He that has My commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves Me. He that has them in , and keeps them in life; he that has them in words, and keeps them in works; he that has them by hearing, and keeps them by doing; he that has them by doing, and keeps them by persevering, he it is that loves Me. Love must be strewn by works, or it is a mere barren name. As if He said, You think that by sorrowing, as you do, for my death you prove your affection; but I esteem the keeping of My commandments the evidence of love. And then He shows the privileged state of one who loves: And he that loves Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him. I will love him, as if now He did not love him. What means this? He explains it in what follows: And will manifest Myself to him, i.e. I love him so far as to manifest Myself to him; so that, as the reward of his faith, he will have sight. Now He only loves us so that we believe; then He will love us so that we see. And whereas we love now by believing that which we shall see, then we shall love by seeing that which we have believed. He promises to show Himself to them that love Him as God with the Father, not in that body which He bore upon earth, and which the wicked saw. For, as after the resurrection He was to appear to them in a body more assimilated to His divinity, that they might not take Him then for a spirit, or a phantom, He tells them now beforehand not to have misgivings upon seeing Him, but to remember that He shows Himself to them as a reward for their keeping His commandments; and that therefore they are bound ever to keep them, that they may ever enjoy the sight of Him.

"He that is not with me is against me." 12:30

None of this deminshes God's love for us.

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

None of this deminshes God's love for us all.

16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.

None of this deminshes God's love for us.

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

None of this deminshes God's love for us.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

None of this deminshes God's love for us.

1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

None of this deminshes God's love for us.

All loving God is totally inconsistent with one god who is taking vengeance on those who don't accept his conditions to be saved...

I don't care of him saying in every page of the New Testament ,
'I'm all loving God'

as long as ,by his own acts of vengeance on them those who reject to believe in his gospel , he proves

'I'm loving God on conditions'

This is where you are wrong, wrong and wrong. So far all you have proved is that people will be punished. You equate punishment with a lack of love which is not the case. I have demonstrated that God being all-loving is a logical and necessary consequence of of His being God. God loving on condition is a fallacy.

Regards,
JP.

[Imam]

No it isn't my friend. For the reasons I gave above..

Dear jon paul......

you know why I didn't quote you yet?
because you(and some other christians here as well) try to reason without Biblical support.......

I(and most Muslims here as well) usually skip the undocumented assumptions..
In all your posts (whether here or another threads) you provided not one verse to support your assumptions !

You equate punishment with a lack of love which is not the case.

so you believe that the act of God casting In flaming fire,and for eternity, taking vengeance on them who rejected his gospel, though considered punishment still not a lack of love !!!...

Isn't that cute?:)

I hope next posts you support your ideas by quoting the Bible ,directly .....

Regards

[Zafran]

so Jesus loves you but you still burn in hell if you dont see him as divine? - God also has the wrath of God which nobody should forget.

Furthermore the bad people are not the same as the people who act morally better - they are different - they choose different paths - therefore they get different rewards.

[Jon Paul]

I hope next posts you support your ideas by quoting the Bible ,directly .....

Regards

I am a Catholic and not a Presbyterian or a Baptist. I nor the Church hold with Sola Scriptura.

Regards,
JP.

[Jon Paul]

Regarding whether God loves the better morre, I will once again turn to St Thomas Aquinas.

Objection 1. It seems that God does not always love more the better things. For it is manifest that Christ is better than the whole human race, being God and man. But God loved the human race more than He loved Christ; for it is said: "He spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all" (Romans 8:32). Therefore God does not always love more the better things.

Objection 2. Further, an angel is better than a man. Hence it is said of man: "Thou hast made him a little less than the angels" (Psalm 8:6). But God loved men more than He loved the angels, for it is said: "Nowhere doth He take hold of the angels, but of the seed of Abraham He taketh hold" (Hebrews 2:16). Therefore God does not always love more the better things.

Objection 3. Further, Peter was better than John, since he loved Christ more. Hence the Lord, knowing this to be true, asked Peter, saying: "Simon, son of John, lovest thou Me more than these?" Yet Christ loved John more than He loved Peter. For as Augustine says, commenting on the words, "Simon, son of John, lovest thou Me?": "By this very mark is John distinguished from the other disciples, not that He loved him only, but that He loved him more than the rest." Therefore God does not always love more the better things.

Objection 4. Further, the innocent man is better than the repentant, since repentance is, as Jerome says (Cap. 3 in Isa.), "a second plank after shipwreck." But God loves the penitent more than the innocent; since He rejoices over him the more. For it is said: "I say to you that there shall be joy in heaven upon the one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance" (Luke 15:7). Therefore God does not always love more the better things.

Objection 5. Further, the just man who is foreknown is better than the predestined sinner. Now God loves more the predestined sinner, since He wills for him a greater good, life eternal. Therefore God does not always love more the better things.

On the contrary, Everything loves what is like it, as appears from (Sirach 13:19): "Every beast loveth its like." Now the better a thing is, the more like is it to God. Therefore the better things are more loved by God.

I answer that, It must needs be, according to what has been said before, that God loves more the better things . For it has been shown (2, 3), that God's loving one thing more than another is nothing else than His willing for that thing a greater good: because God's will is the cause of goodness in things; and the reason why some things are better than others, is that God wills for them a greater good. Hence it follows that He loves more the better things.

Reply to Objection 1. God loves Christ not only more than He loves the whole human race, but more than He loves the entire created universe: because He willed for Him the greater good in giving Him "a name that is above all names," in so far as He was true God. Nor did anything of His excellence diminish when God delivered Him up to death for the salvation of the human race; rather did He become thereby a glorious conqueror: "The government was placed upon His shoulder," according to Isaiah 9:6.

Reply to Objection 2. God loves the human nature assumed by the Word of God in the person of Christ more than He loves all the angels; for that nature is better, especially on the ground of the union with the Godhead. But speaking of human nature in general, and comparing it with the angelic, the two are found equal, in the order of grace and of glory: since according to Revelation 21:17, the measure of a man and of an angel is the same. Yet so that, in this respect, some angels are found nobler than some men, and some men nobler than some angels. But as to natural condition an angel is better than a man. God therefore did not assume human nature because He loved man, absolutely speaking, more; but because the needs of man were greater; just as the master of a house may give some costly delicacy to a sick servant, that he does not give to his own son in sound health.

Reply to Objection 3. This doubt concerning Peter and John has been solved in various ways. Augustine interprets it mystically, and says that the active life, signified by Peter, loves God more than the contemplative signified by John, because the former is more conscious of the miseries of this present life, and therefore the more ardently desires to be freed from them, and depart to God. God, he says, loves more the contemplative life, since He preserves it longer. For it does not end, as the active life does, with the life of the body.

Some say that Peter loved Christ more in His members, and therefore was loved more by Christ also, for which reason He gave him the care of the Church; but that John loved Christ more in Himself, and so was loved more by Him; on which account Christ commended His mother to his care. Others say that it is uncertain which of them loved Christ more with the love of charity, and uncertain also which of them God loved more and ordained to a greater degree of glory in eternal life. Peter is said to have loved more, in regard to a certain promptness and fervor; but John to have been more loved, with respect to certain marks of familiarity which Christ showed to him rather than to others, on account of his youth and purity. While others say that Christ loved Peter more, from his more excellent gift of charity; but John more, from his gifts of intellect. Hence, absolutely speaking, Peter was the better and more beloved; but, in a certain sense, John was the better, and was loved the more. However, it may seem presumptuous to pass judgment on these matters; since "the Lord" and no other "is the weigher of spirits" (Proverbs 16:2).

Reply to Objection 4. The penitent and the innocent are related as exceeding and exceeded. For whether innocent or penitent, those are the better and better loved who have most grace. Other things being equal, innocence is the nobler thing and the more beloved. God is said to rejoice more over the penitent than over the innocent, because often penitents rise from sin more cautious, humble, and fervent. Hence Gregory commenting on these words (Hom. 34 in Ev.) says that, "In battle the general loves the soldier who after flight returns and bravely pursues the enemy, more than him who has never fled, but has never done a brave deed."

Or it may be answered that gifts of grace, equal in themselves, are more as conferred on the penitent, who deserved punishment, than as conferred on the innocent, to whom no punishment was due; just as a hundred pounds [marcoe] are a greater gift to a poor man than to a king.

Reply to Objection 5. Since God's will is the cause of goodness in things, the goodness of one who is loved by God is to be reckoned according to the time when some good is to be given to him by divine goodness. According therefore to the time, when there is to be given by the divine will to the predestined sinner a greater good, the sinner is better; although according to some other time he is the worse; because even according to some time he is neither good nor bad.

Regards,
JP.

[Imam]

What do you want to prove by all such huge post?

to show whose God loves more and who less?

if so how does that related with the point under discussion?


you believe that the act of God casting In flaming fire,and for eternity, punishing with everlasting destruction and taking vengeance on them who rejected his gospel, though considered punishment still not a lack of love...


And we believe that act of God casting In flaming fire,and for eternity, punishing with everlasting destruction and taking vengeance on them who rejected his gospel, Is both punishment and lack of love..

If a father punish his son temporarily with some kind of punishment,we may argue he still love his son

but if he punish taking vengeance on him by casting him in Ernal fire and everlasting destruction,we have to argue though he may loved him once,his act shows without any reasonable doubt he no longer loves him...


Regards

['Abd-al Latif]

I agree with you, however bare in mind many Christian's object to the "Islamic god" and the "Judaic god" as being God because Judaism and Islam do not hold to the Holy Trinity.

I'm in a rush right now and I have to go, but we can come back to this topic. Do remind me if I forget. But in short, the trinity was never something revealed to any of the Prophets, including Jesus himself. For further explination view this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...vented+trinity

Personally I believe Islam and Judaism keep to the same God with a rather imperfect understanding of Him.

It is the same god, just a new Law. There is even a whole chapter dedicated to Mary in the Qur'an and Moses is mentioned countless times.

If you studied the concept of god in Islam, you would without a speck of a doubt in mind know who god really is. Islam explains god and the concept of god like no false ideology or religion could ever do.

Yes, a pious and righteous man is the same as an evil and rebelious man in that they are both children of God. They are both made in the image and likeness of God, they both have rational and eternal souls and they both have Free Will. That is where the sameness ends, of course. But it's key to my next point.

Without any harm or offence intended I'll ask you a rather blunt question.

Are you going entrust you're beautiful 18 year old daughter who has never had a boyfriend to remain in the company of convicted rapist and serial killer for the summer?

Or how about we stroll down the police station and ask the them to free the peodophiles from jail and then hire them as baby sitters with your children over the weekend under the pretext of "Being no different then my trusted righteous, pious, priest".

It's common sense that you would never do this for the simple reason that truth and falsehood cannot ever co-exist.

Allow me please, to quote St Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Dcotor.

"God loves all existing things. For all existing things, in so far as they exist, are good, since the existence of a thing is itself a good; and likewise, whatever perfection it possesses. It is known that God's will is the cause of all things. It must needs be, therefore, that a thing has existence, or any kind of good, only inasmuch as it is willed by God. To every existing thing, then, God wills some good. Hence, since to love anything is nothing else than to will good to that thing, it is manifest that God loves everything that exists. Yet not as we love. Because since our will is not the cause of the goodness of things, but is moved by it as by its object, our love, whereby we will good to anything, is not the cause of its goodness; but conversely its goodness, whether real or imaginary, calls forth our love, by which we will that it should preserve the good it has, and receive besides the good it has not, and to this end we direct our actions: whereas the love of God infuses and creates goodness." - Pt. 1 Q. 20 Art. 2 pp. 6, Summa Theologica

I hope this helps clarify God's love in a Christ (Catholic) conception.

Regards,
JP.

Look into your bible and you'll see that god does not love the evil doers and then we'll talk.

['Abd-al Latif]

'Abd-al Latif, sorry I said the “Muslim God.” My bad…I guess I should have said the “Muslim conception of God.” This seems to be just a niggling point.

No problem. But you should know that Muslims only speak about God from what He has said about Himself and not from our personal interpertations. The first chapter in the Qur'an with the first verse says:

Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; [Qur'an 1:1]

And this is what we say about God. He is the same god of the christians and jews. We just refer to Him as Allah because He refers to Himself as that.

Of course the pious is not the same as the evil-doer. The problem is that Allah loves not the impious and sinful. Over and over again the Qur’an declares that Allah does not love the very people that the Bible says God love so much that he sent his only son to die for them. Thus Allah is not perfectly moral.

Yes that's true. Wouldn't you hate a killer who killed your family member, or a thief who stole your money? If one's bad qualities excel then he is a bad person and every body knows that bad people have bad intentions so no one loves them.

Well, 'Abd-al Latif, people who reject Allah are going to hell, too, so it seems futile to raise this point since it’s consistent in both of our beliefs. The difference, however, is that God, as described in the Bible, loves sinners. God “desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Timothy 2:4). But as consistent as a drumbeat throughout the Qur’an, Allah loves only those who love him. Allah’s love is partial, but this is inconsistent with the necessary all-loving nature of God, thus making Allah morally deficient.

My point was, god isn't all love. I challenge you to go through the bible and find me a clear cut verse where jesus says "I am god, worship me" and there are other verses that Jesus was praying. He obviously couldn't be praying to himself which means he was praying to god. Now anyone who rejects The Most beneficent (Allah/God) and His law, this is the person who deserves Hell.

No society ever accepted - let alone loved - evil people simple because their crimes far outweighs they good. As I said in my previous post, good and evil cannot co-exist therefore the pious and righetous deserve to be loved whereas those who are evil and corrupted deserve what they worked for their whole lives.

[Jon Paul]

[QUOTE='Abd-al Latif;1187291]I'm in a rush right now and I have to go, but we can come back to this topic. Do remind me if I forget. But in short, the trinity was never something revealed to any of the Prophets, including Jesus himself. For further explination view this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...vented+trinity

We are not Protestants or Moslems, and so we reject the notion of "Sola Scriptura"- Bible alone or "The Book Alone", we hold to the deposit of the faith (those truths essential for salvation as revealed by God), which have been handed over to the Prophets and Apostle and transmitted both orally (by preaching) and in a written form (the Sacred Scriptures). In fact unlike Islam, the prophets such as Abraham followed what is classified as a Patristic religion, which the Catholic Church holds to today. We look to what those Church Father who went before us had laid down in their writings and in their practices. Hence we look to both the Scriptures and Tradition, holding to that which was taught always, everywhere and by all.

The word trinity is not explicit in scripture but implicit. Since Christ claimed to be God, and he gives testimony of the Holy Ghost as having divine attributes, it hence becomes clear that we have three divine persons and one almighty God. The fact that word is not in scripture is another proof of the Catholic religion, since we have not tampered with the scriptures to suit the times, but rather understand the scriptures in the manner that Christ had intended them to be understood, namely according to definitive understanding as expounded by the Church which He founded as an infallible guide to salvation (Matt 16:18, Matt 18:18, 1Tim 3:15).

What we mean by the word Trinity is precisely that Christ is God and that he clearly claimed to be and so He is indeed the third person of the Blessed Trinity.

It is evident that Christ is God from the fact that He asserts of Himself that which in the Old Testament is said of God alone and thereby makes Himself equal to God. Like God in the Old Testament Christ sends out prophets, seers and doctors of the Law (Matt 23:34, Luke 11:49) and gives to the promise of His assistance (Luke 21:15/Exodus 4:15). Like God in the Old Testament He is Lord of the law and in His own perfection of power he completes and changes certain precepts of the Old Testament Law (Matt 5:21) He also claims to be Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5). Like God of the Old Testament he makes a covenant with man (Matt 26:18, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20).

That Christ claimed to be God is also evident from the fact that He imposes obligations on His disciples, which none but God can impose on men, such as belief in His Person and of a supreme degree of love directed to Himself personally. He wishes to be Himself the content and object of faith (Luke 9:26).

If you wish to discuss the Trinity furher, I will enter that thread but not just yet. In time, however.

It is the same god, just a new Law.

We have different understands of the Nature of God however.

There is even a whole chapter dedicated to Mary in the Qur'an and Moses is mentioned countless times.

And?

Without any harm or offence intended I'll ask you a rather blunt question.

Are you going entrust you're beautiful 18 year old daughter who has never had a boyfriend to remain in the company of convicted rapist and serial killer for the summer?

Or how about we stroll down the police state and ask the police guards to free the peodophiles from jail and then hire them as baby sitters with your children over the weekend under the pretext of "Being no different the my trusted righteous, pious, priest".

It's common sense and a truth and falsehood cannot co-exist.

Look into your bible and you'll see that god does not love the evil doers and then we'll talk.

Please, read my first post in this thread. St Thomas Aquinas explains quite cleary why God loves us all. One issue I have with Islam is your very anthropomorphic way way of looking at God. However, this may not be the case with other Muslims, but generally this appears to be the case.

Regards,
JP.

[Jon Paul]

I'm in a rush right now and I have to go, but we can come back to this topic. Do remind me if I forget. But in short, the trinity was never something revealed to any of the Prophets, including Jesus himself. For further explination view this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...vented+trinity

On the basis of the Koran itself since the Koran does not reject the Christian notion of the Trinity. The problem is that the Koran doesn't contain the term "trinity" rather the literal Arabic text states: "They are blasphemers who say that Allah is the third of three" - that is of three deities/gods - which no Christian believes in. What the Koran condemns is polytheism (the belief in more than one God), which is also condemned by Christianity.

In fact nowhere in the Quran does one find the orthodox Christian position of the Trinity attacked or defined. Instead, the Quran attacks the belief that God is the third of three and therefore those who believe such must stop saying that God is three. Furthermore, the Quran defines Christian teaching on the Trinity as the belief in God, Mary and Jesus as three gods and accuses Christians of believing in Jesus and Mary as two separate gods apart from the true God. Since no Christians hold or have ever held this the pretension to reject the trinity on the basis on the Koran is not really accurate.

Secondly, the fact is that the Quran itself teaches that Allah is tri-personal in some sense since it views God's Word and His Spirit as entities that are both distinct from Allah and yet at the same time eternal and inseparable from him. For instance, God's Spirit is personal as well as the instrument through which God grants life to man and strengthens believers:

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance to him." S. 15:29

Man was given life by God's Spirit, implying that the Spirit is the source of life.

"She (Mary) placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent Our Spirit (ruh), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." S. 19:17

God's Spirit assumes the form of a man and is described with masculine pronouns. This indicates that the Spirit is not just some force, but is a divine personality.

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity." S. 58:22 Y. Ali

Believers are strengthened by a spirit from Himself, i.e. a spirit from God. In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet, only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God. This is precisely the conclusion one Muslim scholar comes to in his footnote. Yusuf Ali notes:

"Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, ‘a spirit from Himself'. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365)

Hence, the Spirit is of the divine essence, is incomprehensible, omnipresent, personal, and the source of Life, all qualities that are true of God.

This also refutes the Muslim claim that the Spirit of God is the angel Gabriel since Gabriel is neither omnipresent nor divine. In fact, both the Quran and hadiths clearly demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is not Gabriel:

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)!" S. 17:85

According to Sahi Bukhari this verse came down when the Jews questioned Muhammad on the Spirit's identity:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

While I was walking in company with the Prophet in one of the fields of Medina, the Prophet was reclining on a palm leave stalk which he carried with him. We passed by a group of Jews. Some of them said to the others, "Ask him about the spirit." The others said, "Do not ask him, lest he would say something that you hate." Some of them said, "We will ask him." So a man from among them stood up and said, 'O Abal-Qasim! What is the spirit?" The Prophet kept quiet and I knew that he was being divinely inspired. Then he said: "They ask you concerning the Spirit, Say: The Spirit; its knowledge is with my Lord. And of knowledge you (mankind) have been given only a little." (17.85) Volume 9, Book 93, Number 554

Hence, Muhammad did not even know the identity of God's Spirit. Two hadiths from Sahi Muslim affirm that the Spirit is not Gabriel:

"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." Book 4, Number 0987

This tradition makes a distinction between Angels, of which Gabriel is one, and the Spirit. This indicates that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit.

The Quran also describes the Word of God as being personal and as having a dual aspect to it.

"Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones." S. 3:39 Shakir

John is to bear witness to a Word from God, namely Jesus the Christ. Here, Jesus is the one who is the Word from God. The fact that he is a Word from God implies preexistence, that Jesus preexisted as God's Word. This point is brought out more clearly in the two following passages:

"(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)." S. 3:45 Pickthall

According to this passage God's Word is not a mere abstraction but rather a person. This is due to the fact that the Word of God is given a personal name, Jesus. This implies that the Muslim argument that Jesus is only a by-product of God's creative command cannot be sustained. Hence, according to this one passage the Word of God is a person who shall be known as Jesus, implying that Christ is the personal Word of God come down from heaven.

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not ‘Trinity': desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." Y. Ali

Jesus is both the Word of God, not just a word from him, given to Mary and a spirit that proceeds from God himself. We discover that in one sense the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus and yet in other places it affirms that he is the divine preexistent Word and Spirit from God.

Muslims try to evade the fact that Jesus is the very Word of God by indicating that he is called God's Word solely because he was created directly by God's command, kun fayakun- "Be and it is." Firstly, the problem with this is that Jesus is not simply a by-product of God's command, but is the very Word of God to man. This is based primarily on the fact that the Quran clearly teaches that the Word of God is personal and became man in the person of Jesus.

Secondly, if it were true that Jesus is God's word solely because he was created by the command of God then we would expect to find Adam called the Word of God since he was also created by God's command according to the Quran (cf. S. 3:59). Yet, neither Adam nor anyone else is ever called the Word of God.

This implies that the Quran acknowledges that the eternal Word of God became flesh, two aspects (eternal - according to his Divinity and finite - according to His human nature) united in one Person.

In fact, not only is Christ eternal and finite at the same time, the Quran itself is believed by Muslims to be the eternal speech of God in book form. This would imply that the Quran also has a dual aspect, one eternal and one finite. Yusuf K. Ibish, in an article entitled "The Muslim Lives by the Quran," writes:

I have not yet come across a western man who understands what the Quran is. It is not a book in the ordinary sense, nor is it comparable to the Bible, either the Old or New Testaments. It is an expression of Divine Will. If you want to compare it with anything in Christianity, you must compare it with Christ Himself. Christ was an expression of the Divine among men, the revelation of the Divine Will. That is what the Quran is. If you want a comparison for the role of Muhammad, the better one in that particular respect would be Mary. Muhammad was the vehicle of the Divine, as she was the vehicle... There are western orientalists who have devoted their life to the study of the Quran, its text, the analysis of its words, discovering that this word is Abyssinian, that word is Greek by origin... But all this is immaterial. The Quran was divinely inspired, then it was compiled, and what we have now is the expression of God's Will among men. That is the important point. (Charris Waddy, The Muslim Mind [New York: Longman, 1976], p.14)

Therefore in light of the preceding factors, Muslims have no case against the Trinity or the Incarnation since they themselves must affirm that Allah is somehow triune as well as affirming that the Quran, like Christ, is both eternal and finite at the same time.

Hence, if Christians are blasphemers for believing that God is a triune Being or for believing that Jesus is both eternal and finite at the same time, then Muslims themselves are unbelievers. Muslims either believe that there are three distinct eternal beings, implying that there are three Gods or must admit that God is a multi-personal Being.

Regards,
JP.

[Ben]

Man, you guys reply quickly! Even if I get away from the computer for a few hours, I have a lot of catching up to do! Good thing today is my day off work, but I really do have chores I need to take care of…

First I’ll tackle the Muslim defensive apologetic:

Ali_008, you hit the nail on the head when you say that Allah, “loves those who repent, believe and do righteous deeds.” So here’s the paradox: the Qur’an calls Allah “The All-Merciful” but what Allah’s mercy really cashes out to is that if you believe and do righteous deeds, then Allah can be counted on to overlook your sins and to reward your good works. Allah’s love is thus reserved only for those who earn it. Now don’t you think that this is an inadequate conception of God? What would think of a parent who said to his children, “If you measure up to my standards and do as I say, then I will love you?” I have yet to see a good defensive argument…

Second I’ll tackle the Muslim offensive apologetic:

There were a lot of verses from the Bible thrown out there, but I think Zafran wrote a good summary of the main objection to an all-loving God according to the Bible: “Jesus loves you but you still burn in hell if you don’t see him as divine.” Again, the doctrine of hell is not unique to Christianity. I will explain how, on Christianity, an all-loving God can allow people to go to hell, but to be fair, I think it is also necessary for the Muslim to explain how Allah can be all-loving and allow people to go to hell.

This question really digs into the heart of Christianity, namely, we’re looking at justice versus love. The solution to the dilemma is Jesus Christ, who, at the cross, was the fulfillment of justice and love. At the cross we see God's love for people and His wrath upon sin. Jesus was our substitute. In order to receive forgiveness, we need to place our trust in Christ as our Savior and the Lord of our lives—this is what Christianity is all about!

But if we reject Christ, then we reject God's mercy and fall back on His justice. If we reject Jesus' offer of forgiveness, then there is simply is no one else to pay the penalty for your sin--except yourself.

God’s desire is that everyone be saved (as I mentioned in my previous post). But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. God will not send us to hell, but we will send ourselves.

God’s all-loving and all-just character is not compromised. I think the Muslim would have a very difficult case in saying the same.

PS—I have a hard time reading excessively long posts (I’m sure I’m not alone), so I’ll try to keep my as short as possible. If there’s something that I’ve not addressed, send me a message and I’ll respond to you!

[Imam]

The doctrine of hell is not unique to Christianity. I will explain how, on Christianity, an all-loving God can allow people to go to hell, but to be fair, I think it is also necessary for the Muslim to explain how Allah can be all-loving and allow people to go to hell.

Allah is not all loving ,and neither you nor me should tell him whose to love and whose to loves not....

He loves(he has no emotions the way we think)

so let's say he is merciful and his mercy is conditional based on (good deeds)....

exactly As the Biblical god (Jesus) his mercy is conditional based on a condition (faith).......

This question really digs into the heart of Christianity, namely, we’re looking at justice versus love. The solution to the dilemma is Jesus Christ, who, at the cross, was the fulfillment of justice . !

Jesus in the cross should be a living example of Biblical God's injustice, who though innocent was bruised ,tortured for humans iniquities.... and that is not a solution to the dilemma..it is a dilemma itself....

God’s all-loving and all-just character is not compromised.!

And I repeat again the claim of all loving biblical God is refuted by the Biblical God's own acts himself ( casting In flaming fire,and for eternity, punishing with everlasting destruction and taking vengeance on them who rejected his gospel, would damage any claim of all loving biblical God)....

[Zafran]

On the basis of the Koran itself since the Koran does not reject the Christian notion of the Trinity.

the Quran talks about those who say God (singular) is 3 (trinity) - it does speak out against the trinity - and the concept of son of God - and the concept of original sin which gets passed down generation to generation.

All of these are well talked about so is the concept of exaggerating Isa (as) role.

those who believe such must stop saying that God is three.

Thats exactly what you say - you say God is three or a trinity.

Furthermore, the Quran defines Christian teaching on the Trinity as the belief in God, Mary and Jesus as three gods and accuses Christians of believing in Jesus and Mary as two separate gods apart from the true God. Since no Christians hold or have ever held this the pretension to reject the trinity on the basis on the Koran is not really accurate.

The Quran nowhere defines the trinity with Mary - however you guys definilty catholics like to say some very extreme stuff - even calling Mary the "mother of God" - thats worshipping her.

similar to the hindus - when you tell them that they worship Idols - they say they use the idols to focus on God - you have a very similar reason of using her as an intercessor.

Regardless of who it is its shirk. Specifically Islamic sense of Monotheism.

[Zafran]

There were a lot of verses from the Bible thrown out there, but I think Zafran wrote a good summary of the main objection to an all-loving God according to the Bible: “Jesus loves you but you still burn in hell if you don’t see him as divine.” Again, the doctrine of hell is not unique to Christianity. I will explain how, on Christianity, an all-loving God can allow people to go to hell, but to be fair, I think it is also necessary for the Muslim to explain how Allah can be all-loving and allow people to go to hell.

God is all loving to the people that act ethically and upright.

Everybody has a choice - those who work hard for God deserve more then those who mock his people and laugh at his messengers and try to destroy God's messege

As I stated before the people that do evil openly are not the same as those who dont - Therefore they get different rewards.

Thats why there is a heaven and hell.

You get whats coming to you.

Muslims do not shy away from the wrath of God - its there and anybody can be at the end of it - so its the christian problem of "love for all approach" when in reality its only those who trust and believe Jesus is divine who get the love and the others get the wrath.

However as Muslims will say God knows best - we should do our best to stay away from the wrath of God and God has the final decision of showing Grace/ Mercy or Wrath.

You must have heard of the concept of the wrath of God and God fearing people. The whole conept of being God fearing was a big thing in christainty pity they forget about that.

[AntiKarateKid]

God, as a perfect being, must be all-loving. The Qur’an says, “On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love” (19:96). So the Qur’an assures us of God’s love for the God-fearing and the good-doers, but he has no love for unbelievers or sinners, as can be seen throughout the Qur’an: God loves not unbelievers, God loves not the impious and sinful, God loves not evildoers, God loves not the proud, God loves not transgressors. Thus, in the Islamic conception, God is not all-loving. His love is partial and has to be merited. The Muslim God loves only those who first love him. Thus, it seems to me that Muslims revere a God who is morally deficient. This is a stark contrast to the all-loving God described in the Bible.

Thoughts?

If you believe in hell then you must believe that those who are sentenced to it, have not earned God's love. Why would god sentence a person to eternal torture in hell, or even create hell in the first place, if he loves everyone?

Are you being hypocritical? Because this is coming out as nonsense.

Moreover, if we are here to attain God's love, why should we bother abstaining from sins if God will still love us?

[Zafran]

Yeah and I'll like to add when he says

This is a stark contrast to the all-loving God described in the Bible.

we know hes not talking about the OT - or even the NT of how Jesus pbuh treats the Jewish high priests.

[Ali_008]

:sl:
Brother Imam and I quoted verses from the Bible which clearly mentioned that God doesn't love sinners. Bro Ben you read the posts but you ignored the point. In fact the Bible even attributed jealousy to God which is very "ungodly" and the verse follows with the same thing which we are discussing here that God is upset with the sinners.

Exodus 20 : 5-6
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

And did you not see the beauty of the verse of the Qur'an that I quoted of

Surah Nisa (Surah # 4) verse 147
What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe?

Allah is our creator and has no reason to hate his own creation unless the creation itself forgets its creator and starts following its own lusts. Allah cast out Satan because he considered himself to be above the word of God. Satan was asked to prostrate to Adam (peace be upon him) but Satan refused to do so on account of his arrogance. If I agree with you for the sake of argument that Allah loves all his creation then he even has to love Satan:enough!:.

More importantly, Allah is most just and will it be fair if a sinner and a pious saint both receive same amount of love from God. It is an implication of God's attribute of Justice that he doesn't love the sinners.

God is also Most Merciful and that is why he has given man a stated time so that he shall turn to God in it and prevent himself from the fire. Is it not God's mercy and love for his creation that no matter how much sin you do, he's ready to forgive you the moment you repent.

:w:

[Zafran]

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)!" S. 17:85

According to Sahi Bukhari this verse came down when the Jews questioned Muhammad on the Spirit's identity:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

While I was walking in company with the Prophet in one of the fields of Medina, the Prophet was reclining on a palm leave stalk which he carried with him. We passed by a group of Jews. Some of them said to the others, "Ask him about the spirit." The others said, "Do not ask him, lest he would say something that you hate." Some of them said, "We will ask him." So a man from among them stood up and said, 'O Abal-Qasim! What is the spirit?" The Prophet kept quiet and I knew that he was being divinely inspired. Then he said: "They ask you concerning the Spirit, Say: The Spirit; its knowledge is with my Lord. And of knowledge you (mankind) have been given only a little." (17.85) Volume 9, Book 93, Number 554

Hence, Muhammad did not even know the identity of God's Spirit. Two hadiths from Sahi Muslim affirm that the Spirit is not Gabriel:

"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." Book 4, Number 0987

This tradition makes a distinction between Angels, of which Gabriel is one, and the Spirit. This indicates that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit.

Jon non of these verses and hadiths are talking about the "Holy spirit" or Gabriel (as) - its talking about the human soul. This is why if you havent studied Fiqh (Jurispudence) dont Quote hadiths as they have contexts - so does the Quran. Picking out verses of the Quran isnt good enough also as you clearly mixing up the verses. Without even knowing what they are talking about.

Muslims try to evade the fact that Jesus is the very Word of God by indicating that he is called God's Word solely because he was created directly by God's command, kun fayakun- "Be and it is." Firstly, the problem with this is that Jesus is not simply a by-product of God's command, but is the very Word of God to man.

No Jesus pbuh is like Adam pbuh - a creation of God simple as that - the rest is your own christain assumptions.

Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust then said to him: "Be!" -- and he was." (al-Qur'an, 3:59)

You cant just pick some verses of the Quran and leave others when they preety much speaks out against against you.

Finally you dont have authority in interpreating the Quran as the Quran says

[5.55] Your guide is only Allah, His Messenger, and the believers; those
who establish the prayer, pay their obligatory charity, and bow down (in
worship).

hope that clears it up.

peace

[Ali_008]

On the basis of the Koran itself since the Koran does not reject the Christian notion of the Trinity. The problem is that the Koran doesn't contain the term "trinity" rather the literal Arabic text states: "They are blasphemers who say that Allah is the third of three" - that is of three deities/gods - which no Christian believes in. What the Koran condemns is polytheism (the belief in more than one God), which is also condemned by Christianity.

In fact nowhere in the Quran does one find the orthodox Christian position of the Trinity attacked or defined. Instead, the Quran attacks the belief that God is the third of three and therefore those who believe such must stop saying t..

Whoa, that was a long post and I had a terrible time reading it. Bro its good to see that you quoted the verses of the Glorious Qur'an and the Ahadeeth. Tell me now, which one of them said God is three or worship Jesus (peace be upon him) and the spirit or Jesus (peace be upon him) is the son of God. The Hadeeth which you quoted is a conspicuous example that the Spirit isn't to be worshipped (it said Lord of the Angels and the Spirit). Lord of the Spirit and not "Spirit is your Lord". I'm utterly amazed to see that you used that Hadeeth which is so clear and you say that the Spirit is God:exhausted.

And the verses just said that the Spirit was sent and I still can't get what you're trying to prove. The Spirit is a servant of Allah and was sent with orders from his master to strengthen the believers or give glad tidings to the believers. If a postman comes to you with a letter containing some good news like that you've got selected for your job, do you start working under that and for that postman as well. If someone in your office, reports to you that the boss anounced so and so,do you start considering that reporter to be your boss as well.

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance to him." S. 15:29
You highlighted the latter part and missed the former. Allah made Adam (peace be upon him) from clay and he was standing in front of Allah lifeless, so Allah breathed into Adam himself to bring him to life.

Jesus (peace be upon him) was the word of Allah because he was a prophet and every Prophet is the word of Allah because none of them speak of their own or have their own doctrines that they profess. Adam, Noah, David, Solomon, John, Moses, Aaron, Abraham, Joseph, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon them all) all of them were word of God. They received inspiration from God and communicated it to their companions.

In the Bible itself, Jesus (peace be upon him) prophesized Muhammad (peace be upon him) and said that he will be the word of God

Gospel of John 16 : 12-15
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

:blind:

[Zafran]

Ali thats because he doesnt have a clue about Fiqh.

[جوري]

In fact unlike Islam, the prophets such as Abraham followed what is classified as a Patristic religion, which the Catholic Church holds to today. We look to what those Church Father who went before us had laid down in their writings and in their practices. Hence we look to both the Scriptures and Tradition, holding to that which was taught always, everywhere and by all.

Regards,
JP.

I am not particularly interested in this debate, but wished to comment on the above alone using the Quran:

[2:130] And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

[2:135] They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

[2:140] Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!


with it I hope to demonstrate a couple of points.
1- Muslims in fact hold to the religion of Abraham the upright and attest that all the prophets came with the same message!
2- You can't say 'unlike Muslims' save for the regard that we don't worship Jesus or take him for God as going on some other path from that which was tread by all prophets.. your comment here in fact elicits that you are not aware of what Muslims believe or worship!
3- The above verses demonstrate that the term Christian or Jew is but an invention of the people, since the proper path to follow is that of Abraham the upright.. and that modern christianity whether puritinical or catholic is a far cry from what Abraham preached or taught or believed in, certainly he didn't take Jesus for a God nor his mother to be a mother of God, nor an archangel to be the spirit of God!

The religion of Abraham came out of the middle east and he was neither a latin nor a Greek speaker.. leaves one in a quandary over the origins of church beliefs, rituals and practices!

all the best

[Ben]

So Imam has conceded the point of Allah not being all-loving. I think that has some pretty dire theological ramifications (what now is the lynchpin for objective moral values?), but I’ve pressed the issue far enough.

However, I must question Allah’s mercy and justice; to me they seem to be diametrically opposed to one another. Allah simply pardons the sins of the saved without exacting any penalty or payment for their sins. So there remains sin in the universe that ultimately goes unpunished. But this is incompatible with absolute justice. Not every sin gets its due. Some wrongs are simply overlooked. And thus, if Allah is merciful, he cannot be absolutely just. His justice and his mercy are at loggerheads with each other. If he shows mercy, he can only do so at the expense of his justice.

The Muslim concept of salvation thus compromises Allah’s own holiness. Ironically, then, it turns out that not only is Allah not all-loving, but he is also not all-just. Therefore I cannot agree to it.

Regarding the scriptures quoted that purportedly show God is not all-loving: There are multitudes of other passages in the Scriptures that do affirm God’s love for sinners and unbelievers, and for every passage that you could name that says that God hates evil-doers, there are 10 that says that he loves them. So how do we understand this? Well, the way you understand it is that God loves the person, but He hates their sin (which is clearly not the case in Islam). But you say God doesn’t punish the sin, he punishes the sinner. Well, of course not because sin doesn’t exist in abstraction apart from sinners. But God loves the sinners, even as he punishes them because he is absolutely holy and just.

At the end of the day, I think the Muslim conception of God is rationally deficient because Allah is not a morally perfect and all-loving, all-just being.

[Imam]

So Imam has conceded the point of Allah not being all-loving.

Imam has conceded the point of Allah not being all-loving when dealing with sinners and jesus not all loving with those who reject the gospel.....
and supported that with scripture...

Allah’s mercy and justice; to me they seem to be diametrically opposed to one another. Allah simply pardons the sins of the saved without exacting any penalty or payment for their sins. So there remains sin in the universe that ultimately goes unpunished. .

What a double standard !!
The more you write the more you get me astonished!!

If those are the argument of atheist I won't wonder but words from a christian,that seems unbelievable......

God’s mercy and justice; seem not to be diametrically opposed to one another...

Ask the Bible:

Psalm 32:5
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..."


Jeremiah 36:3
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."


Isaiah 55:7
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. ."


Micah 7:18
"Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy."

Proverbs 21:3

"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Regarding the scriptures quoted that purportedly show God is not all-loving: There are multitudes of other passages in the Scriptures that do affirm God’s love for sinners and unbelievers. .

So which one to believe?

The answer just letting the acts of God himself Judge..

But God loves the sinners, even as he punishes them because he is absolutely holy and just. .

Still you miss the difference between God's justice and the claim of Godly unconditional love !!

We are not questioning his just which we are sure of,we question your claims of his supposed unconditional love which he refuted by his condition on salvation and his throwing FOR ETERNITY those whom you claim to be his all the way beloved !!!

At the end of the day, I think the Muslim conception of God is rationally deficient because Allah is not a morally perfect and all-loving, all-just being.

And At the end of the day I hope you have learned to read well the bible and reflect in order to know your position ,before rushing to an argument which ,under your line of reasoning, has to be applied to the biblical god as well.....

[Ali_008]

:sl:
^^Bro Ben, no sin goes unpunished. every sin that a person does is registered in his book of deeds. There are two kinds of sins, one in which a person wrongs himself and the other in which he wrongs others.

The sin of wronging one's own self is between the sinner and his Lord and if you analyse it is ungratefulness to Allah that the sinner did something which Allah forbade him to do. We are all Allah's creation, the basic idea of sin lies in this fact. Our body and everything that we have is not ours but given by God to us to see how we deal with it. So when a person wrongs himself, he does it against the majesty of Allah, though Allah is free of all wants. Wronging one's own self is going against Allah because you don't have a right to do that as you are God's property not your own and here you need to ask for God's forgiveness only for misusing his trust. In the rage of sexual satisfaction, if a person commits masturbation, it will be a sin against one's own soul and God's majesty and if he later repents and asks for Allah's forgiveness then Allah is Ar-Rahim, the Most-Merciful, At-Tawwaab - The Acceptor of Repentance and Al-Ghaffaar - The Oft-forgiving. So the right to forgive or reject lies with Allah alone and if he's ready to forgive his slave then whats wrong with it.

The other sin is more severe in nature and hence has more complications with it. Wronging others. By this the person wrongs himself, a brother of his and so the deed is doubly presented in front of his Lord. In sexual rage, if a person commits rape then his forgiveness doesn't lie with his Lord alone but also with the victim. Before seeking forgiveness from Allah he has to seek forgiveness from the victim.

There's a Hadeeth which state that on the Day of Judgment, there will be a man who will be forgiven and granted Paradise and he'll be walking towards Paradise and at its gate he'll find the people who he wronged in this world waiting for him. And he will not be able to enter Paradise until he convinces each and every one of them.

So every sin is accounted and its upon the gravity of the sin and the Lord's mercy whether it gets punished or forgiven (thanks to repentance).

And I'm grieved you write that the Qur'anic idea of God is deficient. Well the Qur'an is very clear about what Allah likes and hates. Its the Bible which contradicts itself. You counted and said that there's 10 places where God says that he hates the sinners in the Bible and you are also saying that God loves the sinners, so there's clear contradiction. Its neither Allah nor the Qur'an which is deficient rather its the Bible which is self-contradictory.

[Zafran]

Ben dont Ignore other posters - Using double standards will just you get you into a mess - Even you believe in the idea of God fearing and the wrath of God. Lets not forget that all people who reject christ as there saviour go to hell - not very loving - oh wait maybe thats showing the wrath of God which God also has with the mercy and love.

We Muslims believe in both do you?

peace

[Ben]

Ali_008, first thank you responding in a respectful manner and in the spirit of dialogue—it’s refreshing to see a post from you. Since you have taken the time to actually defend the objections I’ve raised and haven’t simply gone on the offensive, I will specifically take the time to respond to you.

From what I understand, all of our sins are recorded in a book of deeds. I’m assuming that all of our good works are also recorded in this book. Got no problem with that…

So let’s say it’s judgment day and this book of deeds is pulled out for each person and the balance is read. If the balance weighs heavy with good deeds, then you’ve pleased Allah and you are assured salvation. This basic idea is correct, isn’t it?

But this is where I don’t understand how Allah can be just. He has shown mercy by pardoning your sins, but he hasn’t been just. It seems like Allah has just blinked at your sin.

Maybe an example would also be helpful. Suppose you get a speeding ticket, and you decide to take it to court. You go to the court and explain to the judge, “Judge, you see I needed to get home quickly because this crazy guy Ben has been posting on IslamicBoard.com and I needed to respond to some of his objections.” The judge, who happens to know that you’re a pretty good guy, says, “Well, Ali, I know you’re a pretty swell guy. You give to charity and you treat your family well, so I’m going to let you off the hook. You’re free to go.” In this case, we can say that the judge was merciful, but he was not just. To be just, there must be a punishment for breaking the speed limit.

Very similarly, this is my confusion with Allah—I’m having a hard time reconciling his mercy and his justice.

I’ll try to clear up your Biblical confusions in my next post.

[Ben]

Just a general comment before I begin—I have been a member of this website for about a week now. When I joined I knew that we’d be discussing sensitive issues, as our beliefs are held near and dear to us. However, I must say that I am shocked at the lack of respect and frankly hostile environment created by a select few. If any of us are to get anything out of this discussion, we must keep our emotions in check.

Also, if you happen to notice, if I write something, I’ll get a bunch of responses, which is fine. I realize this is Islamicboard.com, not Christianboard.com (if such a website exists). But you’ve got to realize that I can’t take the time to respond to every single verse or idea that is flagged as a contradiction. I’ll read your thoughts, and I’ll respond to the most compelling arguments. I hope you understand. Overall, there seem to be two general objections that have raised against the God of the Bible, 1) an all-loving God allowing someone to go to hell and 2) humanity’s need for atonement.

I’ve already laid out how an all-loving God can allow someone to go to hell (see page 2), which is basically that if someone rejects Christ’s atonement for sins, God, being all-just, allows that person to condemn him or her self. I realize this is a challenging idea to accept and to accept it would be to accept Christianity. I guess the best example I can think of is when we refer to “love-hate relationships.” Maybe you have a parent who you love, but that parent abuses alcohol. You love the parent, but you hate the alcohol addiction. In the same way, God love the sinner but hates the sin.

Regarding atonement, you might think that, as Imam has said, “the cross should be a living example of Biblical God's injustice.” Again, to accept Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of humanity is to accept Christianity, but I want to point out that Christians see this not as injustice, but as God’s ultimate gift to mankind. To think of this as injustice is to completely misunderstand the Christian doctrine of salvation. God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard. But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.

[Jon Paul]

On the basis of the Koran itself since the Koran does not reject the Christian notion of the Trinity. The problem is that the Koran doesn't contain the term "trinity" rather the literal Arabic text states: "They are blasphemers who say that Allah is the third of three" - that is of three deities/gods - which no Christian believes in. What the Koran condemns is polytheism (the belief in more than one God), which is also condemned by Christianity.

In fact nowhere in the Quran does one find the orthodox Christian position of the Trinity attacked or defined. Instead, the Quran attacks the belief that God is the third of three and therefore those who believe such must stop saying that God is three. Furthermore, the Quran defines Christian teaching on the Trinity as the belief in God, Mary and Jesus as three gods and accuses Christians of believing in Jesus and Mary as two separate gods apart from the true God. Since no Christians hold or have ever held this the pretension to reject the trinity on the basis on the Koran is not really accurate.

Secondly, the fact is that the Quran itself teaches that Allah is tri-personal in some sense since it views God's Word and His Spirit as entities that are both distinct from Allah and yet at the same time eternal and inseparable from him. For instance, God's Spirit is personal as well as the instrument through which God grants life to man and strengthens believers:

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance to him." S. 15:29

Man was given life by God's Spirit, implying that the Spirit is the source of life.

"She (Mary) placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent Our Spirit (ruh), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." S. 19:17

God's Spirit assumes the form of a man and is described with masculine pronouns. This indicates that the Spirit is not just some force, but is a divine personality.

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity." S. 58:22 Y. Ali

Believers are strengthened by a spirit from Himself, i.e. a spirit from God. In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet, only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God. This is precisely the conclusion one Muslim scholar comes to in his footnote. Yusuf Ali notes:

"Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, ‘a spirit from Himself'. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365)

Hence, the Spirit is of the divine essence, is incomprehensible, omnipresent, personal, and the source of Life, all qualities that are true of God.

This also refutes the Muslim claim that the Spirit of God is the angel Gabriel since Gabriel is neither omnipresent nor divine. In fact, both the Quran and hadiths clearly demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is not Gabriel:

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)!" S. 17:85

According to Sahi Bukhari this verse came down when the Jews questioned Muhammad on the Spirit's identity:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

While I was walking in company with the Prophet in one of the fields of Medina, the Prophet was reclining on a palm leave stalk which he carried with him. We passed by a group of Jews. Some of them said to the others, "Ask him about the spirit." The others said, "Do not ask him, lest he would say something that you hate." Some of them said, "We will ask him." So a man from among them stood up and said, 'O Abal-Qasim! What is the spirit?" The Prophet kept quiet and I knew that he was being divinely inspired. Then he said: "They ask you concerning the Spirit, Say: The Spirit; its knowledge is with my Lord. And of knowledge you (mankind) have been given only a little." (17.85) Volume 9, Book 93, Number 554

Hence, Muhammad did not even know the identity of God's Spirit. Two hadiths from Sahi Muslim affirm that the Spirit is not Gabriel:

"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." Book 4, Number 0987

This tradition makes a distinction between Angels, of which Gabriel is one, and the Spirit. This indicates that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit.

The Quran also describes the Word of God as being personal and as having a dual aspect to it.

"Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones." S. 3:39 Shakir

John is to bear witness to a Word from God, namely Jesus the Christ. Here, Jesus is the one who is the Word from God. The fact that he is a Word from God implies preexistence, that Jesus preexisted as God's Word. This point is brought out more clearly in the two following passages:

"(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)." S. 3:45 Pickthall

According to this passage God's Word is not a mere abstraction but rather a person. This is due to the fact that the Word of God is given a personal name, Jesus. This implies that the Muslim argument that Jesus is only a by-product of God's creative command cannot be sustained. Hence, according to this one passage the Word of God is a person who shall be known as Jesus, implying that Christ is the personal Word of God come down from heaven.

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not ‘Trinity': desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." Y. Ali

Jesus is both the Word of God, not just a word from him, given to Mary and a spirit that proceeds from God himself. We discover that in one sense the Quran denies the divinity of Jesus and yet in other places it affirms that he is the divine preexistent Word and Spirit from God.

Muslims try to evade the fact that Jesus is the very Word of God by indicating that he is called God's Word solely because he was created directly by God's command, kun fayakun- "Be and it is." Firstly, the problem with this is that Jesus is not simply a by-product of God's command, but is the very Word of God to man. This is based primarily on the fact that the Quran clearly teaches that the Word of God is personal and became man in the person of Jesus.

Secondly, if it were true that Jesus is God's word solely because he was created by the command of God then we would expect to find Adam called the Word of God since he was also created by God's command according to the Quran (cf. S. 3:59). Yet, neither Adam nor anyone else is ever called the Word of God.

This implies that the Quran acknowledges that the eternal Word of God became flesh, two aspects (eternal - according to his Divinity and finite - according to His human nature) united in one Person.

In fact, not only is Christ eternal and finite at the same time, the Quran itself is believed by Muslims to be the eternal speech of God in book form. This would imply that the Quran also has a dual aspect, one eternal and one finite. Yusuf K. Ibish, in an article entitled "The Muslim Lives by the Quran," writes:

I have not yet come across a western man who understands what the Quran is. It is not a book in the ordinary sense, nor is it comparable to the Bible, either the Old or New Testaments. It is an expression of Divine Will. If you want to compare it with anything in Christianity, you must compare it with Christ Himself. Christ was an expression of the Divine among men, the revelation of the Divine Will. That is what the Quran is. If you want a comparison for the role of Muhammad, the better one in that particular respect would be Mary. Muhammad was the vehicle of the Divine, as she was the vehicle... There are western orientalists who have devoted their life to the study of the Quran, its text, the analysis of its words, discovering that this word is Abyssinian, that word is Greek by origin... But all this is immaterial. The Quran was divinely inspired, then it was compiled, and what we have now is the expression of God's Will among men. That is the important point. (Charris Waddy, The Muslim Mind [New York: Longman, 1976], p.14)

Therefore in light of the preceding factors, Muslims have no case against the Trinity or the Incarnation since they themselves must affirm that Allah is somehow triune as well as affirming that the Quran, like Christ, is both eternal and finite at the same time.

Hence, if Christians are blasphemers for believing that God is a triune Being or for believing that Jesus is both eternal and finite at the same time, then Muslims themselves are unbelievers. Muslims either believe that there are three distinct eternal beings, implying that there are three Gods or must admit that God is a multi-personal Being.

Regards,
JP.

I must apologise here. I was in a rush and forgot to post the link for this article and put it in to show it is not my own article. I was fairly warned by a Moderator and duly apologise for my error here. This was my source for the section I posted: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...am/comslam.htm

I posted this to see what Muslims would make off it. Sadly I am juggling alot of discussions right now on various forums, so I wont be able to address this thread again just quite yet! Be patient please I shall get around to it soon.

Regards,
JP.

[جوري]

I am not particularly interested in your objections or your conclusions since I think your very premise is faulty and doesn't follow from logic rather very loose associations. Thus, I am only going to present the Islamic view of God from which you or others can draw whatever conclusions..

"I am near to the thought of My servant as he thinks about Me, and I am with him as he remembers Me. And if he remembers Me in his heart, I also remember him in My Heart, and if he remembers Me in assembly I remember him in assembly, better than his (remembrance), and if he draws near Me by the span of a palm, I draw near him by the cubit, and if he draws near Me by the cubit I draw near him by the space (covered by) two hands. And if he walks towards Me, I rush towards him."
[Hadith Qudsi]

"Abu Huraira (radiAllahu anhu) reported Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wa salam) as saying that Allah thus stated:
I live in the thought of My servant as he thinks of Me and with him as he calls Me.."
[Sahih Muslim, 35:6495]


"And your Lord says: Pray unto me: and I will hear your prayer" (Quran 40:60), "Call upon your Lord Humbly and in secret" (Quran 7:55),
"When My servants question thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me" (Quran 2:186), "Is not He (best) who listens to the (soul) distressed when it calls on Him, and who relieves its suffering." (Quran 27:62)


The Mercy of Allah (S.W.T.)

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(Friday speech was delivered by Imam Mohamed Baianonie at the Islamic Center of Raleigh, N.C., on December 4, 1987)

Imam Bukhari and Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His book which is with Him on His throne, "My mercy has overcome My anger.""


Imam Bukhari and Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "Allah has divided mercy into one hundred parts, and He kept ninety-nine parts with Him and sent down one part on the earth, and because of that, one single part. His creatures are merciful to each other, so that even the mare lifts up its hoof away from its baby animal, so that she would not trample on it."



Imam Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "When Allah created the heavens and the earth, he created one hundred mercies, each one can cover what is between the earth and the heaven. He allocated to the earth only one, with which the mother is compassionate with her child; the beast and the bird are compassionate with their babies. When the Day of Judgment comes, Allah will complete His mercy."


Allah (S.W.T.) has told us that from His names are "Arrahman Arrahim" the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. He also told us in His Book about Himself, so He said in surat Al-An’am, (verse 54), what can be translated as, "…Your Lord has written mercy for Himself…"
He (S.W.T.) also said about His mercy in surat Al-‘Araf, (verse 156), what can be translated as, "…And My mercy embraces all things…"
These verses and many ahadith that talk about the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.), its extent, and its greatness, constitute an important aspect about the divine reality in the mind of the Muslim. It is a beautiful and reassuring concept that manifests itself in the merciful relationship between Allah (S.W.T.) and His servants.
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) is manifested in all of His creatures in this universe. This is especially in the lives of human beings; it is of a magnitude that we can not confine or measure, but we can point to some of mercies, so that we can be remind, and reflect on many others aspects of Allah’s immense mercy.
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifested itself in man at the point of His creation, and in making man better than many other creatures. Allah (S.W.T.) says when He talks about man in surat Al-Isra’, (verse 70), what can be translated as, "…And We have preferred them (human being) above many of those whom We have created with a marked preferment."
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifests itself in His subjecting what is in this universe for man’s use. Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Jathiyah, (verse 13), what can be translated as, "And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all as a favor and kindness from Him."
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifests itself in what Allah (S.W.T.) in stilled in man. Byway of abilities to acquire knowledge and science and gave him the mind that can lead him to different sciences.
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifests itself for man. When Allah (S.W.T.) made man the khalifah on earth, He did not leave him without guidance, but rather He sent many messengers to guide him to the straight path, especially the comprehensive and complete Islamic legislation, that would keep him away from hardship and misery.
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) manifests itself in His overlooking the sins of the sinner when he unknowingly commits the sin then repents. Allah’s mercy is even beyond that; Allah (S.W.T.) changes the sins of the sinner, after his sincere repentance followed by righteous deeds, to good deeds (hasanat). Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Al-Furqan, (verse 70), what can be translated as, "…Those who repent and believe, and do righteous deeds, for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds…" All this is to prevent the sinners from feeling hopeless of the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.).
The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) is manifested when Allah (S.W.T.) counts the sin of the sinner as one sin. The mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) is manifested further when Allah (S.W.T.) rewards the righteous doer on his good deed ten times what his good deed is worth and Allah (S.W.T.) multiplies his reward even more than ten times to whom He wants from His servants. Imam Buhkari and Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "Allah ordered (the appointed angels over you) that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed (the way) how (to write). If someone intends to do a good deed and he dose not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed; and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him (its reward equal) from ten to seven hundred times to many more times. And If someone intends to do a bad deed and he dose not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and if he intends to do a bad deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him one bad deed." Also, Allah (S.W.T.) erases the sin with the good deed. Allah (S.W.T.) says in surat Huod, (verse 114), what can be translated as, "…Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds…"
Also, the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) is the reason that Allah (S.W.T.) sends His believers to Paradise on the Day of Judgment. The prophet (S.A.W.) said: "None of you will enter Paradise with his deeds", They said: "Not even you, oh messenger of Allah?!", He said: "Not even me unless Allah bestows His mercy upon me."
The prophet (S.A.W.) illustrates to us the greatness of the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) with His servants in many ahadith:
Imam Bukhari and Muslim reported that, "Some sabi (war prisoners, children and woman only) were brought before the prophet (S.A.W.) and behold, a woman amongst them, her chest was full of milk, and she found her baby boy amongst the captives, she took him over her chest and nursed him. The prophet said to his companions, "Do you think that this lady would throw her baby boy in the fire?" They replied, "No, if she has the power not to throw him in the fire." The prophet said, "Allah is more merciful to His servants than this lady to her son."
Imam Bukhari and Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "If a disbeliever knows of all the mercy which is in the hand of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise…"
The prophet (S.A.W.) made utmost effort to clarify the reality of the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.) with His servants so that Muslims will be merciful among one another and be merciful with others, and know that this mercy is the way to gain the mercy of Allah (S.W.T.). Imam Abu Dawud, At-Tirmithi reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "The merciful people will have mercy bestowed upon them by Allah (S.W.T.). Be merciful with those on earth, so He who in the heaven (Allah) will have mercy on you." Imam Bukhari, Muslim and At-Tirmithi reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "Allah will not have mercy on the one who does not have mercy on people."
The prophet (S.A.W.) clarified to us that snatching mercy from the heart of a person is evidence of his unkindness. Imam Abu Dawud and At-Tirmithi reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "Allah does not snatch mercy except from the unkind person"
The prophet (S.A.W.) taught us that mercy is not to be with man only but it is to be extended to include animals that Allah (S.W.T.) subjected to man to eat, so we should be kind to the animal when we slaughter it, and we should not torture it. Imam Muslim reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said, "…And if you slaughter, slaughter well. Let each one of you sharpen his blade and let him spare suffering to the animal he slaughters."
The prophet (S.A.W.) mentioned to us that Allah (S.W.T.) forgave a sinning man, and a fornicating woman for their mercy and kindness with a thirsty dog, so they gave it water to drink. Imam Bukhari and Muslim report both stories.
Imam Abu Dawud and Ahmad reported that while the companions were once travelling with the prophet (S.A.W.), they noticed a bird that had two chicks, so they took away the two chicks, then the bird came and started to flap its wings. When the prophet (S.A.W.) came back, he asked: "Who has deprived this (bird) of its chicks? Return its chicks to it." Afterwards the prophet (S.A.W.) saw an ant colony had been burnt by some of his companions, he said: "Who has burnt this?" They replied, we did. Then he said: "No one has the right to torture with fire except the One who created the fire."
And we ask that Allah the Most Merciful, bestow His favors and mercy on us in this life and the next. Ameen
http://islam1.org/iar/imam/archives/..._allah_swt.php


Allah swt isn't love, but he is loving, merciful, and above all Just...

what is the point of a loving god that throws children and others into hell for not believing that he self-immolated? where is the love in that?..

__________________

in closure, I don't have all that much time to dedicate to this thread.. but reasonable discerning people who don't yield to Narnia like fairy tales to ascribe the 'Character of God' have a more recondite understanding of our being and our duties..


all the best..

[Zafran]

Ben you just contradicated youself - look

Regarding atonement, you might think that, as Imam has said, “the cross should be a living example of Biblical God's injustice.” Again, to accept Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of humanity is to accept Christianity, but I want to point out that Christians see this not as injustice, but as God’s ultimate gift to mankind. To think of this as injustice is to completely misunderstand the Christian doctrine of salvation. God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard. But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.

So according to You God overides sin by the sacrifce of christ - becasue of mercy not Justice

Justice would let everyone go to hell (according to you) as you said

God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard

Yet God will save the people according to you through mercy - in your beliefs by the death of christ and NOT Justice

But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.[/B]

so do you see the contradictions - You yourself rely on the mercy of God and not justice as Justice would mean nobody is saved as we are all sinners (according to you)

[Zafran]

Ali_008, first thank you responding in a respectful manner and in the spirit of dialogue—it’s refreshing to see a post from you. Since you have taken the time to actually defend the objections I’ve raised and haven’t simply gone on the offensive, I will specifically take the time to respond to you.

From what I understand, all of our sins are recorded in a book of deeds. I’m assuming that all of our good works are also recorded in this book. Got no problem with that…

So let’s say it’s judgment day and this book of deeds is pulled out for each person and the balance is read. If the balance weighs heavy with good deeds, then you’ve pleased Allah and you are assured salvation. This basic idea is correct, isn’t it?

But this is where I don’t understand how Allah can be just. He has shown mercy by pardoning your sins, but he hasn’t been just. It seems like Allah has just blinked at your sin.

Maybe an example would also be helpful. Suppose you get a speeding ticket, and you decide to take it to court. You go to the court and explain to the judge, “Judge, you see I needed to get home quickly because this crazy guy Ben has been posting on IslamicBoard.com and I needed to respond to some of his objections.” The judge, who happens to know that you’re a pretty good guy, says, “Well, Ali, I know you’re a pretty swell guy. You give to charity and you treat your family well, so I’m going to let you off the hook. You’re free to go.” In this case, we can say that the judge was merciful, but he was not just. To be just, there must be a punishment for breaking the speed limit.

Very similarly, this is my confusion with Allah—I’m having a hard time reconciling his mercy and his justice.

I’ll try to clear up your Biblical confusions in my next post.

Now You rely on mercy and NOT Justice as you yourself showed in your own previous post.

so you say this for Islam

But this is where I don’t understand how Allah can be just. He has shown mercy by pardoning your sins, but he hasn’t been just. It seems like Allah has just blinked at your sin.

But then for your beliefs you say

God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard. But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.

How has the death of christ been Just - one man dying for the whole world - thats not justice - nobody thinks that - the christains instead see it as mercy (as you said) - you can say that Jesus's death is enough to wipe out sins - who says??? - Justice?? or God's grace and mercy.

Just like Allah swt can wipe out sins for the sincere people - so does your own religion - according to you - by the death of christ - the ultimate mercy act NOT justice as Justice would banish everyone to hell.


ofcourse Muslims question the death of christ and the christain view.

[Ali_008]

:sl:
^^Brother Ben, Zafran and Gossamer skye have already laid down some really logical points down there and I'll just make an addition to it. I'm glad that my posts came handy and in responding here, I'm just trying to follow the Qur'an as it says in

Surah An-Nahl (Surah # 16) verse 125:
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious

Sister, Gossamer skye brought a great number of verses and Ahadeeth that I was thinking of posting but she got a lot more than my thoughts.

I'm sure you must have heard the term "unconditional love". For me unconditional love isn't a seperate type/kind of love. I guess love is unconditional from the root itself. The love you have for anyone be it your mom, dad, siblings, friends or even pets, it is unconditional. You know that they are not perfect but you still love them and you also get upset when they do something that hurts you. At the time when they did something wrong and they acknowledge it and genuinely want to earn your pleasure, would you not forgive that person for having done that act? They realise their mistake and are very sorry for it. Will you just hold a grudge against that person till his or your last breath? For a kind and merciful person, just the guilt which the culprit has now is enough for him to forgive the mistake and for somebody who's not so merciful, the culprit might have to do something to compensate the pain he caused. In the given example, it could be a gift, a box of chocolates, a bear hug, a long drive or even something as simple as the two words "I'm sorry". Allah Subhaanahu Wa Taala isn't just merciful or very merciful, he's the most Merciful. Nobody is more kind than him. For him just the fact that his slave acknowledges his sin is enough. With regard to the amount of pleasure Allah has when a slave of his repents is beautifully explained in the following Hadeeth:

Ibn Mas'ud (RadhiAllahu Anhu) narrated that the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: “Indeed, Allah is more happy with the repentance of His slave than a man who stops in a barren, desolate land; with him he has his riding animal. He then goes to sleep. When he wakes up, [he realizes that] his mount is gone. He searches for it until he is on the verge of dying. He then says, ‘I will return to the place wherein I lost it, and I will die there.’ He went to that place, and he was then overcome by sleep. When he woke up, his mount was [standing] right beside his head: on it was his food, his drink, his provisions, and the things he neded. Allah is more happy with the repentance of his believing slave than the aforementioned man when he finds his mount and his provisions.” [al-Bukhaari: 6308 ; Muslim: 2744]

That gives a beautiful explanation of the attribute of mercy of Allah.

Now talking about Justice, again Gossamer skye quoted verses that say how good deeds erase the evil deeds. I'll quote just one of them here and thats

Surah Hood (Surah # 11) verse 114
For those things, that are good remove those that are evil.

There's also a hadeeth that goes like

A man said to the Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Alayhi Wasallam), ‘Give me some advice’. ‘Fear God,’ he replied, ‘wherever you may be.’ ‘Give me more’, he said. ‘Follow a sin with a good deed,’ he replied, ‘and you will erase it’. ‘Give me more’, the man said, and he replied, ‘When you deal with people, do so with goodness of character’.

So a sin remains a sin in the book of deeds until it gets replaced by a good deed. This shows us how much Allah loves us and is just to us as well. I never said that just having the regret of commiting a sin earns you forgiveness. The scholars have laid down the conditions for repentance to be accepted and they are :

1. Leaving the sin;
2. Remorse over having committed the sin;
3. Resolve never to return to the sin;
4. If it relates to the rights of another person, then to Return the rights or property to the one who was wronged.

If a person regrets a sin after commiting it but keeps on going back to it then his repentance cannot be called sincere.

I'll give you a basic example. Suppose there's an employee in an office who comes drunk to work and is always late and is very rude in dealing with people and receives warnings on regular basis and has even got suspended quite a few times but is still not fired just because he's in a contract with the organization. One fine day, all of a sudden this worker realises his mistake gives up drinking, goes to work on time, apologises to everyone he misbehaved with and works efficiently not just for a day but it becomes a habit of his and he completely changes. Do you think his co-workers would still hate him? Will he get suspended ever again? Rather, in the future when he makes a mistake it'll be overlooked by all because they know that he has changed and the mistake must have been unintentional.

Thats the magic of righteous deeds. They overpower the sins and evil of the past and vanish it.

Therefore,
Allah is Most Merciful because he forgives all sins.
Allah is Most Just because he forgives his slave only when the slave compensates the evil he's done with righteousness and piety.

---------------------------------------
And I'm also waiting for Jon Paul's response.

:w:

[alcurad]

Jon Paul, note that in every instance the word (Ruh) is mentioned in the qur'an, many translate it as 'spirit/soul' although it never means that, rather (Ruh) refers to the person known as archangel Gabriel.

[Ben]

Since, in the bitterly cutting words of our dear sister, Gossamer Skye, I am not “reasonable” or “discerning,” (yet she kindly wishes me all the best…I’m sure that was truly heartfelt) I suppose you’ll have to pardon me for making you wade through another one of my terribly sophomoric posts. But please take it easy with the personal attacks; how is that constructive?

Zafran, we seem to be repeating ourselves, so I’ll give it just this one last shot and then move on. In your last two posts, what I’ve gathered is that you can accept that Christ dying on the cross is the ultimate act of mercy (presupposing, as you mention, the veracity of the event). The problem you have is how Christ’s sacrificial death equates to justice.

I think the need for a sacrifice shows God’s absolute justice. All throughout the Old Testament we see examples of the Children of Israel sinning and then having to offer sacrifices to pay for their sin. Christians believe that “the wages of sin is death,” (Romans 6:23). We all sin, and we fall short. It would be nice if God could just let us off the hook, but that would be compromising his justice. Fortunately for us, his mercy AND justice are met at the cross. To pay the price of sin, Jesus became the sacrificial Lamb of God (John 1:29) and bore the punishment for every sin. The price was paid and justice was administered.

If you still have misunderstandings about this, I’d encourage you to pray about it and continue to study the Christian doctrine of salvation on your own. I have nothing more to say on the subject.

[Ben]

I once more turn to respond to Ali_008’s post. Summarily, what you’ve said is, “Follow a sin with a good deed, and you will erase [the sin].” Still, I see no justice. Think about saying this to a police officer, “I know I broke the law when I went through the red light. Please forgive me. At the next 10 intersections I will not speed up if the light is yellow.” If the officer lets him go, the officer has shown mercy, but justice has not been administered. Similarly, think about praying this to Allah, “Allah, I screwed up again. Please forgive me. I will ameliorate my ways and do good instead.” Allah can forgive you and show mercy, but he has not administered justice. I still see Allah’s justice and mercy at war with each other.

To gather the loose threads, on the Christian view I have laid out what I see as a plausible reconciliation of God’s mercy and justice, namely through Christ’s sacrifice. On the Muslim view, I think my objections remain, and therefore constitute real problems for the Muslim conception of God, on the basis of which I do not find it plausible or adequate theologically. In an effort to free ourselves from spinning our wheels, I have nothing more to say on this subject.

[جوري]

Since, in the bitterly cutting words of our dear sister, Gossamer Skye, I am not “reasonable” or “discerning,” (yet she kindly wishes me all the best…I’m sure that was truly heartfelt) I suppose you’ll have to pardon me for making you wade through another one of my terribly sophomoric posts. But please take it easy with the personal attacks; how is that constructive?

I have not put you alongside the words 'reasonable' and 'discerning' but perhaps on a subconscious level you have gleaned the folly in your writing and felt the terms applicable? who knows-- my purpose here, given how much I've spent on observation of your previous thread pales in comparison with the textual evidence I have brought forth from both the Quran and Sunnah! which I rather be the focus in lieu of psychoanalyzing how I better dispense my comments with kid gloves and ironically not expect it back in return of course given the Christian exemption from same common sense.. .. 'All the best' are parting words I leave on every thread and usually meant for all the readers at large, as I am sure you are not the only person who reads the posts here?
The constructive portion of the thread was quite expansive and referenced in my point of view and again for those who read, discern and reflect!

I think the need for a sacrifice shows God’s absolute justice. All throughout the Old Testament we see examples of the Children of Israel sinning and then having to offer sacrifices to pay for their sin. Christians believe that “the wages of sin is death,” (Romans 6:23). We all sin, and we fall short. It would be nice if God could just let us off the hook, but that would be compromising his justice. Fortunately for us, his mercy AND justice are met at the cross. To pay the price of sin, Jesus became the sacrificial Lamb of God (John 1:29) and bore the punishment for every sin. The price was paid and justice was administered.

A sacrificial God, is an inept God at best, we see that of course on several levels (if we are to accept Jesus' Godhood') firstly he is inept at best at choosing apostles that are supposed to carry out his message after the point where he forsakes himself.. we see him have a conversation with Peter asserting that he will deny him three times before the act where he as a god forsakes himself and indeed so peter does.. now, god visits in the garden of Gethsemane with what I assume again is himself, begging that he not be forsaken.. yet god forsakes himself the next day and with it breaks one of his commandments or maybe two.. both on suicide and homicide... god realizes his message is incomplete and his apostles are in a tizzy so he chooses a nemesis with which to abrogate all his commandments from the OT, giving up the sabbath, circumcision, eating swine etc etc through a man whose integrity is questionable at best, thus leaving the masses and not just his apostles in a bigger tizzy.. an example of God's Justice? is it really necessary? I am not sure.. if God is so loving, why does he not love all equally and would rather throw in hell children and other believers for merely not buying into the self-immolating tid bit?
Where is the justice in Anna Nicole smith talking about her love of Jesus and extorting money and shedding her clothes but enters in heaven for the mere belief in Jesus eating her sin? while a Muslim who attests to the oneness of God, prays, fasts, gives alms, makes pilgrimage and lives aright ends up in hell for not buying into the god eating sins bit? Do you sense not only a clash but something quite counter intuitive to nature? I do!

If you still have misunderstandings about this, I’d encourage you to pray about it and continue to study the Christian doctrine of salvation on your own. I have nothing more to say on the subject.

The very fulcrum upon which the christian doctrine stands is incredibly shaky and faulty at best.. thus one is best left walking aright the straight path of Abraham than taking a detour into very dreadful and questionable territory!..

all the best indeed!

['Abd-al Latif]

To Jon Paul.

I suppose information to be copy-pasted from an anti-islamic website was inevitable, wasn't it? Why is this such a common trait amongst christians?

Have you even read the Qur'an? Do you even know what you're blindly refuting?

On the basis of the Koran itself since the Koran does not reject the Christian notion of the Trinity. The problem is that the Koran doesn't contain the term "trinity" rather the literal Arabic text states: "They are blasphemers who say that Allah is the third of three" - that is of three deities/gods - which no Christian believes in. What the Koran condemns is polytheism (the belief in more than one God), which is also condemned by Christianity.

Oh but the Qur'an does reject the Trinity, it rejects it outright and don't let a translation confuse you because the original arabic is clear. Please do make an effort to read the links that I provide you with.

Allah says: “They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One God” (Quran 5:73)

Oh and just for your reference, I have come across christians who say that god is third of a three in the trinity so don't let your website fool you.

In fact nowhere in the Quran does one find the orthodox Christian position of the Trinity attacked or defined. Instead, the Quran attacks the belief that God is the third of three and therefore those who believe such must stop saying that God is three. Furthermore, the Quran defines Christian teaching on the Trinity as the belief in God, Mary and Jesus as three gods and accuses Christians of believing in Jesus and Mary as two separate gods apart from the true God. Since no Christians hold or have ever held this the pretension to reject the trinity on the basis on the Koran is not really accurate.

No not really, the Qur'an condems the christians for their inaccurate beliefs in Almighty god which include the trinity, exaggerating the son of mary to be either god, or part of three gods or someone who acts as some sort of intecessor with god.

Again Allah says:

“O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a Messenger of God and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. And do not say, ‘Three’; desist! —it is better for you. Indeed, God is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is God as Disposer of affairs.” (Quran 4:171)

Secondly, the fact is that the Quran itself teaches that Allah is tri-personal in some sense since it views God's Word and His Spirit as entities that are both distinct from Allah and yet at the same time eternal and inseparable from him. For instance, God's Spirit is personal as well as the instrument through which God grants life to man and strengthens believers:

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance to him." S. 15:29

Man was given life by God's Spirit, implying that the Spirit is the source of life.

"She (Mary) placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent Our Spirit (ruh), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." S. 19:17

That's an incorrect interpertation.

The arabic word Rooh is translated as either a spirit or soul and s spirit or a soul is not an attribute of Allah rather it is one of the things 'created' by Allah.

A Muslim scholar by the name of Ibn Taymiyah said:

Simply mentioning something in conjunction with Allah does not mean that that thing is a Divine attribute, rather specific created things may be mentioned in conjunction with Allah and their attributes are not divine attributes, according to scholarly consensus – as in the phrases, "the House of Allah", the "she-camel of Allah", the "slaves of Allah". The same also applies to the phrase "the spirit (rooh) of Allah" according to the earliest generations of the Muslims and their imams and their common folk. But if something that is one of His attributes and is not an attribute shared by anyone else is mentioned in conjunction with Him, such as the speech of Allah, the knowledge of Allah, the hand of Allah, and so on, then this is one of His attributes. [From al-Jawab al-Saheeh, 4/414.]

This principle was mentioned by him in several places. The point is that things which are mentioned in conjunction with Allah are of two types:

1 – Entities which exist separately. These are mentioned in conjunction with Allah by way of honouring, such as the House of Allah and the she-camel of Allah, and also the spirit (in Arabic: rooh) of Allah, which is not a divine attribute, rather it is something that exists separately. Hence the Prophet (saaws) said, according to the lengthy hadeeth of al-Bara' ibn 'Azib which describes how man dies and his soul or spirit (rooh) comes out: "It comes out flowing like a drop of water from the mouth of a vessel… and he (the Angel of Death) takes it, and when he takes it they (the angels) do not leave it in his hand for an instant but they take it and put it in that shroud with that perfume… and there comes out from it a smell like the finest fragrance of musk on the face of the earth, and they ascend with it…" [See the report of this hadeeth in Ahkaam al-Jana'iz ib by al-Albaani, p. 198]

The Prophet (saaws) said: "When the soul (rooh) is taken, the eyes follow it." Narrated by Muslim, 920.

In other words, when the soul is taken the eyes follow it, watching to see where it goes. All of this indicates that the soul is something that exists separately.

2 – Attributes that do not exist separately, rather they need an entity to belong to, such as knowledge, will and power. If it is said, "the knowledge of Allah", the "will of Allah" and so on, this is mentioning the attribute in conjunction with the One to Whom it belongs.

And in 19:17 the word 'Ruh' which is translated as spirit or soul - and in this case it is spirit - is referring to the angel Gabriel.

God's Spirit assumes the form of a man and is described with masculine pronouns. This indicates that the Spirit is not just some force, but is a divine personality.

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity." S. 58:22 Y. Ali

Again, refer to what I was explaining above. "and strengthened them with Ruh from Himself" means, "He gave them strengths".

Believers are strengthened by a spirit from Himself, i.e. a spirit from God. In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet, only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God. This is precisely the conclusion one Muslim scholar comes to in his footnote. Yusuf Ali notes:

"Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, ‘a spirit from Himself'. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365)

Hence, the Spirit is of the divine essence, is incomprehensible, omnipresent, personal, and the source of Life, all qualities that are true of God.

If Yusuf Ali meant 'holy spirit' the most likely he was referring to Gabriel which was sent by Allah. As for him saying 'divine spirit' I need to see his writing in arabic to see what he actually meant. Regardless, the argument I presented earlier clearifies this.

This also refutes the Muslim claim that the Spirit of God is the angel Gabriel since Gabriel is neither omnipresent nor divine. In fact, both the Quran and hadiths clearly demonstrates that the Holy Spirit is not Gabriel:

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)!" S. 17:85

As I said before the arabic rooh is translated as spirit or soul and we come to find which of the two is meant according to the context of the sentence. In this verse the world rooh means the human soul.

According to Sahi Bukhari this verse came down when the Jews questioned Muhammad on the Spirit's identity:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

While I was walking in company with the Prophet in one of the fields of Medina, the Prophet was reclining on a palm leave stalk which he carried with him. We passed by a group of Jews. Some of them said to the others, "Ask him about the spirit." The others said, "Do not ask him, lest he would say something that you hate." Some of them said, "We will ask him." So a man from among them stood up and said, 'O Abal-Qasim! What is the spirit?" The Prophet kept quiet and I knew that he was being divinely inspired. Then he said: "They ask you concerning the Spirit, Say: The Spirit; its knowledge is with my Lord. And of knowledge you (mankind) have been given only a little." (17.85) Volume 9, Book 93, Number 554

Hence, Muhammad did not even know the identity of God's Spirit. Two hadiths from Sahi Muslim affirm that the Spirit is not Gabriel:

"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." Book 4, Number 0987

This tradition makes a distinction between Angels, of which Gabriel is one, and the Spirit. This indicates that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit.

I've cleared this above so i'm not going to repeat my self.

I won't bother reading the rest of the article because it's just twisted words to suit the whims and desires of those people who have never read the Qur'an or known Islam.

Honestly, these arguments are so ridiculous so please just ask questions instead of copy-pasting twisted texts.

[Ali_008]

I once more turn to respond to Ali_008’s post. Summarily, what you’ve said is, “Follow a sin with a good deed, and you will erase [the sin].” Still, I see no justice. Think about saying this to a police officer, “I know I broke the law when I went through the red light. Please forgive me. At the next 10 intersections I will not speed up if the light is yellow.” If the officer lets him go, the officer has shown mercy, but justice has not been administered. Similarly, think about praying this to Allah, “Allah, I screwed up again. Please forgive me. I will ameliorate my ways and do good instead.” Allah can forgive you and show mercy, but he has not administered justice. I still see Allah’s justice and mercy at war with each other.

To gather the loose threads, on the Christian view I have laid out what I see as a plausible reconciliation of God’s mercy and justice, namely through Christ’s sacrifice. On the Muslim view, I think my objections remain, and therefore constitute real problems for the Muslim conception of God, on the basis of which I do not find it plausible or adequate theologically. In an effort to free ourselves from spinning our wheels, I have nothing more to say on this subject.

Brother, if something good cannot replace evil then the chance of something unjust and terrible replacing is out of the question. If you put a little more thought to it the Christian ideology of God makes him all loving and thats it. God is the Most Merciful and the Most Just. The Christian ideology completely negates it. It just says that God loves humans so so so much that he sacrificed one individual and that one indivual is his so-called son. Where's the idea of mercy and justice here?

I agree with Gossamer skye again and this time, I'll give you another logical analysis of God's love but this time of the Christian ideology.

To begin with Muslims do not believe that Christ was crucified and so the points I'm gonna lay down are just for the sake of argument and I firmly believe that Christ did not die on the cross neither was he crucified nor is he God/ son of God.

The idea that Christ died on the cross for others' sins completely throws the thought of God's mercy and justice out of the window. Where did the mercy of God go when one individual was getting such brutal punishment? And according to your own ideology all humans are the children of God and not his slaves. What makes you think that a God who could sacrifice one of his sons for the sake of others wouldn't make that decision again and what if some angel comes to you tonight saying "the cup of iniquity of this world is full again and as Christ did 2000 years ago, you'll have to do the same thing today. The people are waiting outside to put you on the cross." Would you get on the cross???????????????????????????? :? And what kind of father is this that keeps the best for himself and sends his children to this demonic earth to suffer and gives a life that has death while he stays eternal in the heavens. The idea of God loving people so much as to sacrifice his son doesn't sound merciful, it rather sounds Psychotic. God loves you regardless of your faith and identity. It doesn't matter whether you're the Pope or Pharaoh, God loves you. Sin as much as you want because just Jesus (peace be upon him) is accountable for them. Commit more and more so that he returns soon and gets on the cross again for you just because God has this psychotic obsession with you. Jesus didn't get on the cross for his companions alone but also for Pharaoh, Goliath, Abimelech, the people who beheaded John (peace be upon him) and every wretched sinner that spat on the face of righteousness and piety.

Brother I'm sorry, I'd rather worship a God who reasonably loves me than someone who has this psychotic obsession with me while keeping me on this earth and asking me not to sin when I don't even have to account for it. :skeleton::skeleton::skeleton:
:w:

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

'God, as described in the Bible, loves sinners..

then why punish the loved ones in fire ?? why not send them in to paradise directly ??

[Al Ansari]

Of course the pious is not the same as the evil-doer. The problem is that Allah loves not the impious and sinful. Over and over again the Qur’an declares that Allah does not love the very people that the Bible says God love so much that he sent his only son to die for them. Thus Allah is not perfectly moral.

Well, 'Abd-al Latif, people who reject Allah are going to hell, too, so it seems futile to raise this point since it’s consistent in both of our beliefs. The difference, however, is that God, as described in the Bible, loves sinners. God “desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Timothy 2:4). But as consistent as a drumbeat throughout the Qur’an, Allah loves only those who love him. Allah’s love is partial, but this is inconsistent with the necessary all-loving nature of God, thus making Allah morally deficient.

In the name of Allaah

In an authentic narration of the beloved Messenger Muhammad ( prayers and peace be upon him) taken from Sahih Bukhari 475

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari: The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision.

Patience is indeed a part of love. Is it not love that Allaah, the exalted gives respite to all of his creation--those who believe and those who disbelieve?

Is it not love that Allaah, the exalted has given the believers and the disbelievers the same faculties in order to seek His truth?

Why does Allaah, dislike the "sinners", "wrongdoers", "hypocrites", etc? It is because of their deeds. Their deeds are impure, their intentions are impure, and their entire person is impure.

In a translation of the meaning, Allaah, the exalted states in his Noble Book, The Qur'aan:

"And He is the Forgiving and Loving" (Qur'an 85:14)

Allaah is the most merciful, the most forgiving, and compassionate and this is His love. Allaah loves us so much that he can hear our prayers directly without any intermediaries. He loves us so much that He never stops forgiving us if we are truly sincere. Love is connected with the deeds of a person.

If a man told his wife "I love you.", then he beats her. What kind of love is that?

Love is connected with the deeds of a person. Yes, Allaah dislikes, but does He not forgive and love those who turn to Him and sincere repentance? YES.

Allaah also says in the Qur'aan, (translation) "Say: O My slaves (mankind) who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgives all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful..." (39:53-58).

Don't get it twisted.

Christians always try to differentiate between the God of the OT and NT. Then say Allaah is some "other" God. Have you read the Qur'aan without any bias or narrow-mindedness? The refutation to this entire post is in the Noble Qur'aan--God's Word.

Before I end this post, I have to mention some things that do not constitute love in the context in which you are judging.

All the following is according to your bible.

The Bible says "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV)

First, I want to note that this is not Jesus (peace be upon him) according to the bible talking. This is someone else speaking on their own behalf. Why would God have to send someone who had done nothing wrong (Jesus) to die for the sins of humanity. Does not Ezekiel chapter 13 mention that one shall bear their own sin and punishment? Why must atonement be made because of our parents--Adaam and Eve (peace be upon them both)? Why did God punish Eve with the pangs and pain of childbirth as a punishment, instead of a blessing as Allaah tells us? Why the punishment?

It appears that the Christian concept of God is a grudge holder who will not flinch unless blood is shed.

And Allaah knows best.

[Zafran]

Zafran, we seem to be repeating ourselves, so I’ll give it just this one last shot and then move on. In your last two posts, what I’ve gathered is that you can accept that Christ dying on the cross is the ultimate act of mercy (presupposing, as you mention, the veracity of the event). The problem you have is how Christ’s sacrificial death equates to justice.

You keep contradicting yourself -

You said

God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard. But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us.

you admit that christ dying on the cross is mercy - You said in above that "Justice" would send everyone to hell" - so the death of christ is not Just IN YOUR OWN WORDS - the bold - its pure mercy - thats what saves people not Justice which would take everyone to hell according to you.

Muslims believe that God shows mercy by saying "be" and it is no need for someone innocent to die. Which can easily be argued as being unjust.

There no point giving one shots if you have admited that christainty also suffers form the same "Problem" as thats how you see it.

You also have to define Justice so far you have given the above act eg "everyone goes to hell if God was Just as we dont measure up to his standards".

Mercy and Justice are two very different things - the definitly dont meet togather on the cross - I'll challenge any christan to defend the "Justice of the cross" with the above definition given by you - They cant because you have definied "Justice"

God, in being just, rightfully should send every one of us to hell for our sins—we don’t measure up to his standard

and mercy

But because of his mercy and love, Jesus paid the price for us

end of story.