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Ibn-Ahmed Herz
07-22-2009, 06:59 PM
Bismillah ar rahman ar raheem--

In this article I will be going through reasons why I feel the bible is not reliable. I encourage Christians to read through and respond to my post with why they feel the evidence is in their favor.

I will be going through the following subjects that pertain to textual criticism.

-Transmission Accuracy
-Source Reliability and Homogeneity
-Textual integrity (Contradictions,errors,etc.)

You will see that many times Christians will claim they have an abundant amount of manuscript evidence for the bible. However when we examine the dates which these manuscripts were written,the agreement among them,and the contradictions found today in our present day version of the bible it forces one to reconsider.

The Greek manuscripts are the main sources for the bible,we shall now see if these sources are reliable. We will first deal with the Transmission chain for the new testament and see why it does not hold.

-Transmission Accuracy
The Gnostic gospels were gospels rejected by the early church before and during the advent of the council of nicea. The council of nicea was held during 325 AD. They were hundreds of books rejected and banned by the early church that are still in existence today but not apart of the present day bible. So the question we must ask is this; How did they know which book was authentic and which one was not? There existed not a single criteria for deciding which book should be included, so how did they go about doing it? It was so bad that the identity of Jesus SAW was now dividing the church,hence one of the reasons the council of nicea was held. The standard belief in the trinity was established in the council of Nicea,along with deciding which books would be included in the standard bible.Which in fact today there is no "standard bible",there are hundreds of different versions and the church uses more books then the protestants.

http://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html

-Source Reliability
Note: A manuscript is a fragment of the bible,most of the time less then 1 percent.
Now we go on to see if the sources are reliable,and to see if the bible can be accurate using it. Scholars hold that there are 5745 Greek manuscripts that give us our bible today. Exactly how useful are these manuscripts,here are the numbers and facts from one of the top biblical scholars in the world, Bruce Metzger. These numbers are not disagreed upon by any living scholar of Christianity today.

How old are the manuscripts? 132 Manuscripts are from 500 years after Jesus Christ even lived. That's 2.5 percent of the entire Greek manuscript collection. 97.5 percent of all the sources for the bible today were written 5 centuries after Jesus Christ even walked on earth. Most of the sources for the bible were written during the middle ages up to the 15/16th century. When you compare the 132 manuscripts(Which doesn't even equal ONE bible) with all the other books banned in the early church it is a wonder Christianity even has a bible today.

Dr. Klaus Junack (German biblical scholar) "Today more than 5,000 manuscripts are known: the overwhelming majority of these are from the medieval and late medieval periods, but on occasion they also preserve readings from the early period."

So how about agreement among the manuscripts? Today christians will tell us that Bruce Metzger calculated the agreement to be 99.5 percent with just minor differences in spelling. This however is false, there is not a single calculation today that gives 99.5 percent,it is a completely made up number, Bruce Metzger never claimed this number. On the contrary he gives a completely different set of numbers. So what is the agreement among the entire source for the bible today?

The total comes out to 62.5 percent agreement. You can see the chart from Bruce Metzger here on the Islamic awareness site. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bib...baccuracy.html

So that means close to half of the entire bible source disagrees with itself.

The two oldest complete NT bibles on earth today, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus has 3,000 disagreements. Most bibles today are only a few hundred pages long,that's about one contradiction per page,not including scribe errors.

-Contradictions

Lol? I don't think I have to go into this just open a bible.





Special thanks to Islamic Awareness Team http://www.islamic-awareness.org/


Asalamu alaikum
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Uthman
07-22-2009, 07:50 PM
:threadapp
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Ibn-Ahmed Herz
07-22-2009, 08:39 PM
2 minor mistakes I made in the article.

1. The early bibles come out to more then just one,but about 2 or 3 barely including vaticanus and sinaiticus.
2. It's actually about 10 contradictions per page and not one.
Reply

Trumble
07-22-2009, 10:31 PM
Since when has 'disgreement', certainly in the sense that is applicable here, been synonymous with 'contradiction'?

The important thing is the message, and ten words or so a page could easily vary without that being changed in the slightest. That's the trouble with this sort of (increasing old and tired) argument, nobody can ever show where the meaning has been significantly changed. As Christians (or at least most of them) do not claim the Bible is the direct word of God, it simply doesn't matter. The example I like to give is that of the works of Plato and Aristotle; fundamentally important philosophers even to this day. Their works, too, were subject to exactly the same sort of errors and yet how many people today claim the meaning and 'message'; of the Republic or Nicomachean Ethics have changed and our understanding of them is 'unreliable'? Nobody!!
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AntiKarateKid
07-22-2009, 10:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Since when has 'disgreement', certainly in the sense that is applicable here, been synonymous with 'contradiction'?

The important thing is the message, and ten words or so a page could easily vary without that being changed in the slightest. That's the trouble with this sort of (increasing old and tired) argument, nobody can ever show where the meaning has been significantly changed. As Christians (or at least most of them) do not claim the Bible is the direct word of God, it simply doesn't matter. The example I like to give is that of the works of Plato and Aristotle; fundamentally important philosophers even to this day. Their works, too, were subject to exactly the same sort of errors and yet how many people today claim the meaning and 'message'; of the Republic or Nicomachean Ethics have changed and our understanding of them is 'unreliable'? Nobody!!
The message is indeed important but when you have conflicting ideas of what the message is, then it becomes difficult. I am surprised that you think nobody can show that the meaning has changed given the abundance of different early christian sects some of which didn't even believe Jesus pbuh was the son of God, a main part of the current day "meaning".

Moreover, Plato and Aristotle's words do not play as active a role in people's lives as say the Torah, Bible, or Quran. People believe that understanding these books is the purpose fo their entire existence and the gateway into a better future one, to give a quick example. Moreover, religion is a powerful force and people have recognized this and tried to manipulate it. Manipulation of Plato doesn't have the same gravitas as manipulating the Bible.

Also, knowing what EXACTLY God said is much more important than knowing what EXACTLY Plato said.
Reply

Trumble
07-22-2009, 11:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
The message is indeed important but when you have conflicting ideas of what the message is, then it becomes difficult. I am surprised that you think nobody can show that the meaning has changed given the abundance of different early christian sects some of which didn't even believe Jesus pbuh was the son of God, a main part of the current day "meaning".
The 'meaning' being discussed here is that of Biblical passages that exhibit variations between different manuscripts of what are supposedly the same books, particularly the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. As I said, nobody seems able to point out a single instance, despite the number of so-called 'contradictions', where the actual meaning differs beyond the trivial.

Manipulation of Plato doesn't have the same gravitas as manipulating the Bible.
Probably not. We have now moved, though, from a claim of inconsistencies (which are generally acknowledhged as being principally the result of copying errors, etc) to one of deliberate manipulation. Can you produce instances of where such manipulation - materially affecting the meaning of the passage - can actually be proven to have occured?

Also, knowing what EXACTLY God said is much more important than knowing what EXACTLY Plato said.
As I said, most Christians - in contrast to muslims regarding the Qur'an - do not claim the Bible IS "exactly what God said" - so the point seems mute.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-22-2009, 11:33 PM
The 'meaning' being discussed here is that of Biblical passages that exhibit variations between different manuscripts of what are supposedly the same books, particularly the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. As I said, nobody seems able to point out a single instance, despite the number of so-called 'contradictions', where the actual meaning differs beyond the trivial.
The existence and conflicts between early Christian sects speaks volumes.
Probably not. We have now moved, though, from a claim of inconsistencies (which are generally acknowledhged as being principally the result of copying errors, etc) to one of deliberate manipulation. Can you produce instances of where such manipulation - materially affecting the meaning of the passage - can actually be proven to have occured?
John 5:7 was taken as the only Bible verse which specifically talked about the trinity. It was later revealed to be a forged verse. You can imagine the great implications of this for people who assert that the trinity is unsupported by the Bible.

As I said, most Christians - in contrast to muslims regarding the Qur'an - do not claim the Bible IS "exactly what God said" - so the point seems mute.
The point is certainly not moot. People are looking for what God said and not what they THINK he said. Both Christians and Muslims want to know. How many different Bibles were burned and destroyed, how many sects were deemed as heretics, and how many people were killed in early Christian history over differences between their biblical manuscripts and theology?

Protestants accuse Catholics of perverting the Bible and adding/deleting verses and vice versa. If the differences were trivial, then such conflict wouldn't arise.

I don't understand your disdain for finding what exactly happened. If crime scene evidence cannot have any doubts as to their history and handling or else it is thrown away, why should we treat the teachings of God, which makes a larger impact, any different?
Reply

Trumble
07-23-2009, 12:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
The existence and conflicts between early Christian sects speaks volumes.
It might on another topic. It has no relevance to this one.


John 5:7 was taken as the only Bible verse which specifically talked about the trinity. It was later revealed to be a forged verse.
You state as fact something that is disputed, but I tend to agree with you. If it was a forgery, though, it was a sixteenth century one and has nothing to do with the differences and contradictions in early manuscripts that the OP was actually about.

How many different Bibles were burned and destroyed, how many sects were deemed as heretics, and how many people were killed in early Christian history over differences between their biblical manuscripts and theology?
I'm sorry, but I don't see the relevance of this. I have no idea.. and neither do you. We are talking about differences between copies of what are supposed to be the same books.

Protestants accuse Catholics of perverting the Bible and adding/deleting verses and vice versa. If the differences were trivial, then such conflict wouldn't arise.
Again quite true but, again, of no relevance to the topic. The Protestant and Catholic division happened 1,000 years or so later.

I don't understand your disdain for finding what exactly happened. If crime scene evidence cannot have any doubts as to their history and handling or else it is thrown away, why should we treat the teachings of God, which makes a larger impact, any different?
I have no such 'disdain', but I see no evidence in the OP's "fully detailed argument" that 'exactly what happened' is being discovered. If the point of your analogy is to suggest that, as the Bible cannot be considered 'reliable', the whole thing should be thrown out (in favour of the Qur'an, obviously) I can see that would make perfect sense to a muslim. But not to a Christian!
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Eric H
07-23-2009, 12:24 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Ibn-Ahmed Herz; and welcome to the forum.

I am not sure how we serve God when we argue against other people’s beliefs. If I were to follow your line of reasoning and think the Bible is wrong, you have left me nothing to believe in other than atheism.

In the spirit of praying to the One God who hears all our prayers despite our differences.

Eric
Reply

alcurad
07-23-2009, 02:00 AM
^hmm, are you suggesting we stop when we have questions:?

IMO, yes there are passages that were significantly altered or even forged outright, but the main problem doesn't actually lie there as much as it lies with the change in 'interpretation'. the verses of the trinity for example could be and are interpreted in so many ways, yet it seems to many that the trinity is all they indicate, and so on.
Reply

YusufNoor
07-23-2009, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ibn-Ahmed Herz
Bismillah ar rahman ar raheem--

In this article I will be going through reasons why I feel the bible is not reliable. I encourage Christians to read through and respond to my post with why they feel the evidence is in their favor.

I will be going through the following subjects that pertain to textual criticism.

-Transmission Accuracy
-Source Reliability and Homogeneity
-Textual integrity (Contradictions,errors,etc.)

You will see that many times Christians will claim they have an abundant amount of manuscript evidence for the bible. However when we examine the dates which these manuscripts were written,the agreement among them,and the contradictions found today in our present day version of the bible it forces one to reconsider.

The Greek manuscripts are the main sources for the bible,we shall now see if these sources are reliable. We will first deal with the Transmission chain for the new testament and see why it does not hold.

-Transmission Accuracy
The Gnostic gospels were gospels rejected by the early church before and during the advent of the council of nicea. The council of nicea was held during 325 AD. They were hundreds of books rejected and banned by the early church that are still in existence today but not apart of the present day bible. So the question we must ask is this; How did they know which book was authentic and which one was not? There existed not a single criteria for deciding which book should be included, so how did they go about doing it? It was so bad that the identity of Jesus SAW was now dividing the church,hence one of the reasons the council of nicea was held. The standard belief in the trinity was established in the council of Nicea,along with deciding which books would be included in the standard bible.Which in fact today there is no "standard bible",there are hundreds of different versions and the church uses more books then the protestants.

http://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html

-Source Reliability
Note: A manuscript is a fragment of the bible,most of the time less then 1 percent.
Now we go on to see if the sources are reliable,and to see if the bible can be accurate using it. Scholars hold that there are 5745 Greek manuscripts that give us our bible today. Exactly how useful are these manuscripts,here are the numbers and facts from one of the top biblical scholars in the world, Bruce Metzger. These numbers are not disagreed upon by any living scholar of Christianity today.

How old are the manuscripts? 132 Manuscripts are from 500 years after Jesus Christ even lived. That's 2.5 percent of the entire Greek manuscript collection. 97.5 percent of all the sources for the bible today were written 5 centuries after Jesus Christ even walked on earth. Most of the sources for the bible were written during the middle ages up to the 15/16th century. When you compare the 132 manuscripts(Which doesn't even equal ONE bible) with all the other books banned in the early church it is a wonder Christianity even has a bible today.

Dr. Klaus Junack (German biblical scholar) "Today more than 5,000 manuscripts are known: the overwhelming majority of these are from the medieval and late medieval periods, but on occasion they also preserve readings from the early period."

So how about agreement among the manuscripts? Today christians will tell us that Bruce Metzger calculated the agreement to be 99.5 percent with just minor differences in spelling. This however is false, there is not a single calculation today that gives 99.5 percent,it is a completely made up number, Bruce Metzger never claimed this number. On the contrary he gives a completely different set of numbers. So what is the agreement among the entire source for the bible today?

The total comes out to 62.5 percent agreement. You can see the chart from Bruce Metzger here on the Islamic awareness site. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bib...baccuracy.html

So that means close to half of the entire bible source disagrees with itself.

The two oldest complete NT bibles on earth today, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus has 3,000 disagreements. Most bibles today are only a few hundred pages long,that's about one contradiction per page,not including scribe errors.

-Contradictions

Lol? I don't think I have to go into this just open a bible.

Special thanks to Islamic Awareness Team http://www.islamic-awareness.org/


Asalamu alaikum
:sl:

i actually dabble "in the study of" the study of historical criticism and textual criticism. i doubt a post or two could explain it to anyone.

let me paraphrase Bart Ehrman, of the 5,700 Greek manuscripts that we now have, NO TWO are alike! HOWEVER [according to Ehrman] the VAST MAJORITY of the differences [and there are more differences than there are words in the NT!] are spelling errors and word placement in the Greek, which according to Ehrman CANNOT be replicated in English. there ARE differences that affect what a text might mean, but it would be better to stick to what is generally believed by those that do study the field.

now, Professor Luke Timothy Johnson is also highly aware of textual and historical criticism. UNLIKE Ehrman, Professor Johnson's faith is not diminished by this, at least he says as much. the belief is that [and i'm paraphrasing] we still understand the [original] Message in spite of all of the complications. Ehrman would retort that it is impossible to to know what the original message was if you don't know what the original words were!

surprisingly, [and i haven't read Jesus Interrupted yet, but i am reading Misquoting Jesus and iv'e either watched or listened to all but one of Ehrmans lecture sets from the Teaching Company (found here http://www.teach12.com/storex/professor.aspx?ID=150 )] i prefer the approach of Professor Johnson WHEN EXPLAINING just what textual criticism is. (his set is here http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDe....aspx?cid=6252 ) so let me ask:

just what is textual criticism and how did it come about and why should a Christian OR ANYONE care?

:wa:
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-23-2009, 03:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ibn-Ahmed Herz
-Transmission Accuracy
The Gnostic gospels were gospels rejected by the early church before and during the advent of the council of nicea. The council of nicea was held during 325 AD. They were hundreds of books rejected and banned by the early church that are still in existence today but not apart of the present day bible.
Hundreds? Since you claim that they are still in existence today, you must be able to name them. I'll accept a link so that you don't have to post them. But if you can't produce a scholarly link (not a Dan Brown type of expose that merely makes its own assertions but with no actual facts), then please produce the list with dates.

So the question we must ask is this; How did they know which book was authentic and which one was not?
You assume that authenticity was and should have been that which was key. Please define what you mean by authentic. A book produced by Joe Smoe from Kokomo might be authentic, but that would hardly be sufficient reason to include it in the canon.

There existed not a single criteria for deciding which book should be included, so how did they go about doing it?
Correct, there were mutliple criteria. I think that is a good thing. Not only only would being a verifiably authentic book by Joe Smoo not be enough, it also needed to have something constructive to say. There were letters written by St. Paul that were NOT included in the canon. We would love to have them today, but apparently the early church didn't find them meaningful enough to save as they did some of his others.


It was so bad that the identity of Jesus SAW was now dividing the church,hence one of the reasons the council of nicea was held. The standard belief in the trinity was established in the council of Nicea,along with deciding which books would be included in the standard bible.
The terms "establish" and "deciding" as used here carry a connotation not in keeping with what the Council actually did, which was neither to establish or decide but to confirm that which was already accepted as the norm of the universal church at that time.

Which in fact today there is no "standard bible",there are hundreds of different versions and the church uses more books then the protestants.
There is both truth and falsehood in this statement. It is true that there are hundreds of different versions of the Bible in use today. That is because each translation is a version. So, by this definition, even if you had only one single standard text, but different people each made their own translation of it (say a person named Pickthal, another named Shakir, a third named Yusuf Ali, and yet another name Mohsin Khan), then by definition one would have multiple versions of that particular work that was being translated. So, there is an implied falsehood when despite multiple translations of the Qur'an that there is seen as being only one Qur'an to say that because there are hundreds of different translations of that there are hunderds of different versions of the Bible but only one Qur'an. This is comparing apples and oranges. If using the same standard that says because there is an NIV, a KJV, a RSV, a NRSV, a NASB, etc. means that there are hundreds of different versions of the Bible, then the same things could be said with regard to any book (including the Qur'an) which has hundreds of different translations.

What is true is that Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox and Coptic Christians do not agree on a standard set of books for the canon of scripture. Further it is also true that even when there is agreement on which books compose the canon, that remains disagreement on which of the variant readings found among the multiple manuscripts should be used to determine the text from which a translation is ultimately made. These combined differences are well short of the exageration of being in the hundreds. Indeed, all those hundreds of translations combined are probably based on less than a dozen different texts, but it is true that that still does mean that there is no single standard.



-Source Reliability
Note: A manuscript is a fragment of the bible,most of the time less then 1 percent.
Now we go on to see if the sources are reliable,and to see if the bible can be accurate using it. Scholars hold that there are 5745 Greek manuscripts that give us our bible today. Exactly how useful are these manuscripts,here are the numbers and facts from one of the top biblical scholars in the world, Bruce Metzger. These numbers are not disagreed upon by any living scholar of Christianity today.

How old are the manuscripts? 132 Manuscripts are from 500 years after Jesus Christ even lived. That's 2.5 percent of the entire Greek manuscript collection. 97.5 percent of all the sources for the bible today were written 5 centuries after Jesus Christ even walked on earth. Most of the sources for the bible were written during the middle ages up to the 15/16th century.
All true. But it is also true that there are 25 different papyri written within less than 150 years of the writing of the books of the NT which between them contain the entirety of the NT. And further, I have read, but unfortunately cannot today cite the source, that the early (meaning pre-Nicene) Church fathers quoted all but two verses of the NT.

Note: A manuscript is a fragment of the bible,most of the time less then 1 percent.
This really doesn't bear the significance that many might think. For instance, I just grabbed one of my Bibles. In this particular case it is 1923 pages from Genesis to Revelation. But that isn't just one book, that is a collection of 66 different books (at least in my Protestant Bible). Many of those books are actually fairly short. As the original manuscripts weren't copies of whole Bibles, but collections of different books that would later aggregately come to be known as the Bible, one could have an entire book of Ruth or James and even in its complete form it would be less than 1% of the Bible. Indeed, with a Bible of 1923 pages, 1% = 19.23 pages and nearly half of the books of this particular Bible are that size or less. So, it is not surprising that when dealing with the manuscripts that many of the manuscripts are less than 1% of the totality of the Bible. It would be more unusual if they were larger than that. This is what makes the codexes so important.

So how about agreement among the manuscripts? Today christians will tell us that Bruce Metzger calculated the agreement to be 99.5 percent with just minor differences in spelling. This however is false, there is not a single calculation today that gives 99.5 percent,it is a completely made up number, Bruce Metzger never claimed this number. On the contrary he gives a completely different set of numbers. So what is the agreement among the entire source for the bible today?

The total comes out to 62.5 percent agreement. You can see the chart from Bruce Metzger here on the Islamic awareness site. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bib...baccuracy.html

So that means close to half of the entire bible source disagrees with itself.
I haven't read either Metzger give a specific number of this before, nor have I any idea howthis Islamic awareness site came up with their numbers. So, I won't speak for any particular precise claim. But having a copy of the Greek New Testament in my possession as I write this, and that edition being a scholarly edition that makes note of all of the variant readings, I can tell you that it isn't every third verse that has a variant reading. That throws considerable doubt on the figures presented here from the Islamic awareness site. In addition, I catch a mis-statement of fact on the Islamic awareness site:
What is seen is that the maximum number of manuscripts that were used were in the preparation of the UBS' Greek New Testament (3rd Edition), i.e., about 18%. The Nestle Aland's Novum Testamentum Graece (26th Edition) uses just about 10% of the available manuscripts.
I have both of these editions of the Greek NT text. The preface to them indicates that they reviewed thousands of texts, but that for the reasons correctly given on the website, they didn't make use of all of them as "it is not the numerical superiority of the manuscripts that matters for numbers mean nothing. What matters is the quality of the manuscripts, their age, text-type, etc. Most contemporary New Testament textual scholars contend that a minority of manuscripts - primarily the earliest ones - preserve the earliest, most authentic wording of the text." And so they only used those in producing their own editions of the NT text.


The two oldest complete NT bibles on earth today, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus has 3,000 disagreements. Most bibles today are only a few hundred pages long,that's about one contradiction per page,not including scribe errors.
I need a citation on this. I just read through the Gospel of Matthew using the UBS text and was only able to identify 25 disgreements between Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. An example of the nature of these disagreements is Matthew 11:15. (This difference is repeated again in 13:9 and 13:45, so there are nearly 12% of all of the variance between these two codexs for the book of Matthew in just this one example.) Vacticanus it reads ο εχων ωτα ακουετω meaning "He who has ears, let him hear," using the imperitive form of the verb; and in Sinaticus it reads ο εχων ωτα ακουειν ακουετω meaning "He who has ears to hear, let him hear," using both the infinitive and the imperitive form of the verbs. I'll let you decide the degree to which the meaning is corrupted by either the addition or the deletion of the infinitive. Personally, I think the meaning remains the same.

I don't know what additional errors you might be referencing when you say, "not including scribe errors", my count most certainly does include these errors. No doubt some variants are significant in meaning, but the vast majority are in keeping with the above example. And when those variants are significant, the work of textual criticism helps us to arrive at what was the most likely original text and that is the one used for the work of translation. It is primarily because the variants rarely make any significant difference in the meaning of the passage in which it occurs that we have one committee producing a text arrive at conclusion A and another committee arrive at conclusion B. Again, the example of Matthew 13:9 above. The weight (not the count) for which was the original is about equal. Stephanus produced the "Textus Receptus", from which the KJV was translated, and selected the Sinaiticus rendering as original; while 2 centuries later Wescott and Hort, from which the RSV and the NASB were translated, selected the Vaticanus variant as original. United Bible Societes agrees with Wescott and Hort, and is the basis for most translations since 1975.

In the end, I pretty much see them all as conveying the same message and think, with limited exceptions, this whole argument is much ado about nothing.
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-23-2009, 03:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
just what is textual criticism and how did it come about and why should a Christian OR ANYONE care?

:wa:
It is the study of the existing manuscripts for the purpose of trying to determine most closely what the original reading of that text was before copying introduced errors (be the unintentional or not) to it.

I perceive it to be somewhat akin to the process by which Muslims determine the authenticity of certain hadith based on the credibility, the number and antiquity of the witnesses.

It is important because we do want as accurate of a text to work with as possible. Since the largest number of variants appear to make no overall change in the understanding of the passage no matter which of the variants one adopts as original, it probably isn't as big a deal as some would make it out to be. But when one considers that one is dealing with what we Christians consider to be the word of God, then we want it to be as accurate as possible, and recognize that sometimes even a little change can make a big difference.
Reply

Ibn-Ahmed Herz
07-23-2009, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Since when has 'disgreement', certainly in the sense that is applicable here, been synonymous with 'contradiction'?

The important thing is the message, and ten words or so a page could easily vary without that being changed in the slightest. That's the trouble with this sort of (increasing old and tired) argument, nobody can ever show where the meaning has been significantly changed. As Christians (or at least most of them) do not claim the Bible is the direct word of God, it simply doesn't matter. The example I like to give is that of the works of Plato and Aristotle; fundamentally important philosophers even to this day. Their works, too, were subject to exactly the same sort of errors and yet how many people today claim the meaning and 'message'; of the Republic or Nicomachean Ethics have changed and our understanding of them is 'unreliable'? Nobody!!
I didn't say 10 words per page,I said 10 contradictions per page in the SOURCES for the bible. So its basically 10 concepts that conflict with each other on each page.
Reply

Ibn-Ahmed Herz
07-23-2009, 05:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Hundreds? Since you claim that they are still in existence today, you must be able to name them. I'll accept a link so that you don't have to post them. But if you can't produce a scholarly link (not a Dan Brown type of expose that merely makes its own assertions but with no actual facts), then please produce the list with dates.

You assume that authenticity was and should have been that which was key. Please define what you mean by authentic. A book produced by Joe Smoe from Kokomo might be authentic, but that would hardly be sufficient reason to include it in the canon.

There was no criteria used in the council of nicea. If there was please state it.

Correct, there were mutliple criteria. I think that is a good thing. Not only only would being a verifiably authentic book by Joe Smoo not be enough, it also needed to have something constructive to say. There were letters written by St. Paul that were NOT included in the canon. We would love to have them today, but apparently the early church didn't find them meaningful enough to save as they did some of his others.

Letters from Paul is also pulled into question,and second you claim there are multiple criteria for deciding which book should of been banned and which book should have been kept. Very well,how did they decide as to which book should of been kept and which book should of been banned?


The terms "establish" and "deciding" as used here carry a connotation not in keeping with what the Council actually did, which was neither to establish or decide but to confirm that which was already accepted as the norm of the universal church at that time.

The council of nicea was held for a number of different reasons,all the reasons I gave are agreed by the Christians themselves (which books to include,the identity of christ,etc.)



There is both truth and falsehood in this statement. It is true that there are hundreds of different versions of the Bible in use today. That is because each translation is a version. So, by this definition, even if you had only one single standard text, but different people each made their own translation of it (say a person named Pickthal, another named Shakir, a third named Yusuf Ali, and yet another name Mohsin Khan), then by definition one would have multiple versions of that particular work that was being translated. So, there is an implied falsehood when despite multiple translations of the Qur'an that there is seen as being only one Qur'an to say that because there are hundreds of different translations of that there are hunderds of different versions of the Bible but only one Qur'an. This is comparing apples and oranges. If using the same standard that says because there is an NIV, a KJV, a RSV, a NRSV, a NASB, etc. means that there are hundreds of different versions of the Bible, then the same things could be said with regard to any book (including the Qur'an) which has hundreds of different translations.

Completely false,there are so called "corrections" in the newer versions of the new testament today. If you'd like I can post you the verses and as to how they differ. And they also differ in meaning many times,and not just in translations. Also different versions may use different sources,the king james version is used by receptus,however another version may use another source.

What is true is that Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox and Coptic Christians do not agree on a standard set of books for the canon of scripture. Further it is also true that even when there is agreement on which books compose the canon, that remains disagreement on which of the variant readings found among the multiple manuscripts should be used to determine the text from which a translation is ultimately made. These combined differences are well short of the exageration of being in the hundreds. Indeed, all those hundreds of translations combined are probably based on less than a dozen different texts, but it is true that that still does mean that there is no single standard.

You say that Christians do not agree on the books for the bible likes its no big deal. Isn't this the word of god? Yet Christians can't even decide how many books to include in their most important scripture? This quarrel and constant changing in the bible has been going on the entire time the bible has been around,even currently.





All true. But it is also true that there are 25 different papyri written within less than 150 years of the writing of the books of the NT which between them contain the entirety of the NT. And further, I have read, but unfortunately cannot today cite the source, that the early (meaning pre-Nicene) Church fathers quoted all but two verses of the NT.

What do you mean written less than 150 years? I know you aren't talking about the little sliver of papyri with a paragraph on it from john are you? Because that is literally the only text you have anything close to 125-150 years from the original. It is a fact NOT opinion that the christian world only has around 130 manuscripts (2-3 complete bibles) that are before 500 A.D. which is laughable and that's not even considering the variants that existed at that time period as well. Also these 130 manuscripts contradict each other on EVERY page.

This really doesn't bear the significance that many might think. For instance, I just grabbed one of my Bibles. In this particular case it is 1923 pages from Genesis to Revelation. But that isn't just one book, that is a collection of 66 different books (at least in my Protestant Bible). Many of those books are actually fairly short. As the original manuscripts weren't copies of whole Bibles, but collections of different books that would later aggregately come to be known as the Bible, one could have an entire book of Ruth or James and even in its complete form it would be less than 1% of the Bible. Indeed, with a Bible of 1923 pages, 1% = 19.23 pages and nearly half of the books of this particular Bible are that size or less. So, it is not surprising that when dealing with the manuscripts that many of the manuscripts are less than 1% of the totality of the Bible. It would be more unusual if they were larger than that. This is what makes the codexes so important.

This is insignificant to my argument I was merely making a note as to how many pages on average a manuscript holds.

I haven't read either Metzger give a specific number of this before, nor have I any idea howthis Islamic awareness site came up with their numbers. So, I won't speak for any particular precise claim. But having a copy of the Greek New Testament in my possession as I write this, and that edition being a scholarly edition that makes note of all of the variant readings, I can tell you that it isn't every third verse that has a variant reading. That throws considerable doubt on the figures presented here from the Islamic awareness site. In addition, I catch a mis-statement of fact on the Islamic awareness site: I have both of these editions of the Greek NT text. The preface to them indicates that they reviewed thousands of texts, but that for the reasons correctly given on the website, they didn't make use of all of them as "it is not the numerical superiority of the manuscripts that matters for numbers mean nothing. What matters is the quality of the manuscripts, their age, text-type, etc. Most contemporary New Testament textual scholars contend that a minority of manuscripts - primarily the earliest ones - preserve the earliest, most authentic wording of the text." And so they only used those in producing their own editions of the NT text.

The Islamic awareness team did not make the charts,christian scholars did,actually one of the best as I mentioned Bruce Metzger. If you click on the site you can see all the sources for their charts (which are from international christian scholars.

I need a citation on this. I just read through the Gospel of Matthew using the UBS text and was only able to identify 25 disgreements between Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. An example of the nature of these disagreements is Matthew 11:15. (This difference is repeated again in 13:9 and 13:45, so there are nearly 12% of all of the variance between these two codexs for the book of Matthew in just this one example.) Vacticanus it reads ο εχων ωτα ακουετω meaning "He who has ears, let him hear," using the imperitive form of the verb; and in Sinaticus it reads ο εχων ωτα ακουειν ακουετω meaning "He who has ears to hear, let him hear," using both the infinitive and the imperitive form of the verbs. I'll let you decide the degree to which the meaning is corrupted by either the addition or the deletion of the infinitive. Personally, I think the meaning remains the same.

(2) - W. Pickering, The Identity of the New Testament Text, p.54 There is the source of one of the scholars and his books along with his page number that says the following. "The variation between two 'Byzantine' MSS will be found to differ both in number and severity from that between two 'Western' MSS or two 'Alexandrian' MSS -- the number and nature of the disagreements between two 'Byzantine' MSS throughout the Gospels will seem trivial compared to the number (over 3,000) and nature (many serious) of the disagreements between Aleph and B, the chief 'Alexandrian' MSS, in the same space." 2

Bert Ehrman Also numbers the disagreements between the two oldest NT manuscripts to around 3,000.

And I highly doubt you went through Both books and looked on every page for errors and contradictions just to respond to my thread.

I don't know what additional errors you might be referencing when you say, "not including scribe errors", my count most certainly does include these errors. No doubt some variants are significant in meaning, but the vast majority are in keeping with the above example. And when those variants are significant, the work of textual criticism helps us to arrive at what was the most likely original text and that is the one used for the work of translation. It is primarily because the variants rarely make any significant difference in the meaning of the passage in which it occurs that we have one committee producing a text arrive at conclusion A and another committee arrive at conclusion B. Again, the example of Matthew 13:9 above. The weight (not the count) for which was the original is about equal. Stephanus produced the "Textus Receptus", from which the KJV was translated, and selected the Sinaiticus rendering as original; while 2 centuries later Wescott and Hort, from which the RSV and the NASB were translated, selected the Vaticanus variant as original. United Bible Societes agrees with Wescott and Hort, and is the basis for most translations since 1975.

In the end, I pretty much see them all as conveying the same message and think, with limited exceptions, this whole argument is much ado about nothing.
When I'm talking about variants I am excluding orthographical errors,I merely stated "besides scribe errors" to push that point.

You are making the old Textual cross reference argument which I'm sorry to tell you but the sources are too corrupted and too young to use that method. If you want an example on how or why please ask and I'll demonstrate it for you.

Here are some facts for you to attempt to refute.

62.5 percent agreement
2-3 bibles before 500 AD
Variants (different gnostic bibles)THAT EXIST TODAY which I am sending you them to your email on your request.
Scribal errors (Orthographical errors).
Reply

Ibn-Ahmed Herz
07-23-2009, 05:09 AM
Oops can an admin fix my response for me please?
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-23-2009, 05:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ibn-Ahmed Herz
I didn't say 10 words per page,I said 10 contradictions per page in the SOURCES for the bible. So its basically 10 concepts that conflict with each other on each page.
Yes, but as I said above, in actually counting them in my Bible, I couldn't find anything close to the number you suggest. Would you cite your source, please. Thanks.
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YusufNoor
07-23-2009, 05:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
It is the study of the existing manuscripts for the purpose of trying to determine most closely what the original reading of that text was before copying introduced errors (be the unintentional or not) to it.

that's the what [pretty much], bot NOT the why. although i would leave out "closely"

I perceive it to be somewhat akin to the process by which Muslims determine the authenticity of certain hadith based on the credibility, the number and antiquity of the witnesses.

i would disagree with that statement, as the authority of Ahadeeth appear to be with the chain of narrators and not so much that the narrators all say different things.IF hadeeths differ, they get listed as well. i am not an authority on either however.

It is important because we do want as accurate of a text to work with as possible. Since the largest number of variants appear to make no overall change in the understanding of the passage no matter which of the variants one adopts as original, it probably isn't as big a deal as some would make it out to be. But when one considers that one is dealing with what we Christians consider to be the word of God, then we want it to be as accurate as possible, and recognize that sometimes even a little change can make a big difference.
i was actually hoping that that OP might take some time to ponder those questions.

to me, the fact that there are numerous changes and differences isn't as important as figuring out why. as most translations are based on Jerome's Vulgate for the most, and those based upon the Septuagint, it would SEEM that the culprits are obvious. too bad it doesn't pan out that way.

so historical criticism is needed as well as textual criticism. as i said, i actually preferred Professor Johnson's explanation of what textual criticism is and why the it began. what Ehrman had done is dispel some myths associated with church history, especially those dealing with Constantine. eg: The Gnostic gospels were gospels rejected by the early church before and during the advent of the council of nicea. The council of nicea was held during 325 AD. They were hundreds of books rejected and banned by the early church that are still in existence today but not apart of the present day bible.

the 2 biggest elements, as i see it, are the realization of the corruption of Religion by Rome and the advent of the printing press. this led to Protestant Churches [maybe not English ones] and their effort to reduce [or maybe RETURN] religion to "sola scriptora," that is to base religion solely on the word of God and not the word of men, howevermuch the NT IS the word of men.

i still think that IF Rome perverted the religion THAT MUCH, and i DO belive they did, then they were NEVER "God's Representative!

i was listening to a lecture by Professor Kenneth Harl on Rome and the Barbarians [ http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDe....aspx?cid=3460 ], one of the last ones and he was discussing the impotence of the senate after Constantine moved his capitol to Byzantium, and after Constantine's heirs bumbled the Empire. here i believe one of the major clues tumbled out. the senate was STILL pagan. that is UNTIL they decided to become the Papal Fathers.

and Allah knows best!

:wa:
Reply

Ibn-Ahmed Herz
07-23-2009, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Yes, but as I said above, in actually counting them in my Bible, I couldn't find anything close to the number you suggest. Would you cite your source, please. Thanks.
What does YOUR bible have to do with the SOURCES that contradict each other? As I have stated not all versions use same sources,and different versions use a variety of sources. So the version you have in your hand may just be from a single source. And I doubt you are "counting" all the mistakes in your entire bible,I listed my sources in my rebuttal to you.
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-23-2009, 05:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ibn-Ahmed Herz
What does YOUR bible have to do with the SOURCES that contradict each other? As I have stated not all versions use same sources,and different versions use a variety of sources. So the version you have in your hand may just be from a single source. And I doubt you are "counting" all the mistakes in your entire bible,I listed my sources in my rebuttal to you.
If you had read my first post a little more carefully you would already have the answer to your question.

The Bible I referenced is my UBS edition of the Greek NT, with critical apparatus listing the variant readings. Thus by reading the apparatus I can compare whether a variant is supported by Sinaiticus or Vaticanus, both or neither. And yes, I did go all the way through Matthew and was only able to identify 25 instances in the entire Gospel in which one variant was supported by Sinaiticus and a different one was supported by Vaticanus. This actual count that I made this evening is so significantly different from the numbers you gave as to cause me to question the integrity of your source, that or your understanding of their meaning, especially since you have yet to cite your source.

You said:
The two oldest complete NT bibles on earth today, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus has 3,000 disagreements. Most bibles today are only a few hundred pages long,that's about one contradiction per page,not including scribe errors.
You corrected yourself to say you had meant not one but 10 contradictions per page.

So, I'm checking your math. If referring to the whole Bible (both OT and NT) then the bible on my shelf average 1500 pages. With 3000 supposed disagreements total that is only 2 per page, not 10. If you are referring to just the NT, then your math is a little better. But I still don't find any substantiation of your figures of 3000 disagreements between the Codexes Sinaiticus and Vacticanus in the pages of the NT.

Again, just using the Gospel of Matthew as a way of testing the accuracy of those numbers, I find only 184 variants listed in the UBS edition of the Greek Text of Matthew total. On 159 of those occassions Sinaiticus and Vaticanus actually AGREE with each other, leaving only 25 in which they disagree -- roughly 1 every 3.5 pages. It seems highly implausible to me that with only 25 disagreements between Sinaiticus and Vaticanus in Matthew that there would be 2975 more in the rest of the NT which is what would be necessary to achieve the counts you were providing. That is why I asked for the source for your numbers.

You haven't provided that source. And I haven't time to quibble more than I already have. I'm off to bed and will see if you've added anything significant when I return next week.
Reply

Ibn-Ahmed Herz
07-23-2009, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If you had read my first post a little more carefully you would already have the answer to your question.
1.Unfortunately for you I did read your post thoroughly and your UBS edition of the bible has nothing to do with my argument. The UBS edition is based on the same sources that NIV version and TNIV version use.It also uses the "Eclectic" method meaning you DO NOT have the sources in your hands but just another finished product.

Luke Mounsey -The more recent translations such as the NASB and the NIV, claim to use an 'eclectic' text that combines all the known readings and supposedly uses the most prevalent one. It is claimed that they did not use the Alexandrian manuscripts or the Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament at all.

Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament = Sinaticus and Vaticanus

The Bible I referenced is my UBS edition of the Greek NT, with critical apparatus listing the variant readings. Thus by reading the apparatus I can compare whether a variant is supported by Sinaiticus or Vaticanus, both or neither. And yes, I did go all the way through Matthew and was only able to identify 25 instances in the entire Gospel in which one variant was supported by Sinaiticus and a different one was supported by Vaticanus. This actual count that I made this evening is so significantly different from the numbers you gave as to cause me to question the integrity of your source, that or your understanding of their meaning, especially since you have yet to cite your source.


You said: You corrected yourself to say you had meant not one but 10 contradictions per page.

So, I'm checking your math. If referring to the whole Bible (both OT and NT) then the bible on my shelf average 1500 pages. With 3000 supposed disagreements total that is only 2 per page, not 10. If you are referring to just the NT, then your math is a little better. But I still don't find any substantiation of your figures of 3000 disagreements between the Codexes Sinaiticus and Vacticanus in the pages of the NT.

Again, just using the Gospel of Matthew as a way of testing the accuracy of those numbers, I find only 184 variants listed in the UBS edition of the Greek Text of Matthew total. On 159 of those occassions Sinaiticus and Vaticanus actually AGREE with each other, leaving only 25 in which they disagree -- roughly 1 every 3.5 pages. It seems highly implausible to me that with only 25 disagreements between Sinaiticus and Vaticanus in Matthew that there would be 2975 more in the rest of the NT which is what would be necessary to achieve the counts you were providing. That is why I asked for the source for your numbers.
[/QUOTE]

The UBS greek version of the bible does not use SINGLE sources but a mixture of different sources from the entire Alexandrian manuscript collection. Meaning your UBS version if compared to the codex vaticanus would be different.

You counting in your little UBS greek edition means nothing because it is not a SOURCE but a mixture from different sources.



You haven't provided that source. And I haven't time to quibble more than I already have. I'm off to bed and will see if you've added anything significant when I return next week.[/QUOTE]

I Gave you charts from Bruce Metzger,I gave you his BOOK source from where is chart is located.I gave you the scholars who numbered the errors to 3,000, Bert Ehrman,etc. And I even gave you the book name and page number where it was said, How much more sources do you want?


Please read-

[3]Greek text of the New Testament, the Preface says:The Greek text used in translating the New Testament was an eclectic one using VARIOUS SOURCES.

[3] K. L. Barker (ed.), The NIV: The Making Of A Contemporary Translation, 1991, International Bible Society: Colorado Springs, pp. 46-47. (Download).

From 1963 onwards, K. Aland worked on a revision of the ‘middle’ text established by Nestle.... The new text was the work of an international committee made up of K. Aland, M. Black, B.M. Metzger, A. Wikgren, and, after the first edition, C.M. Martini. The first edition was published in 1966 by the United Bible Societies (The Greek New Testament). The apparatus contains very few variant readings but, for each one, a large number of witnesses is regularly given. READ HERE ALSO -The choice of variants is based on the majority vote of the committee, and the proportion of votes obtained is indicated by a letter placed at the head of each variation unit. The most notable effect of this combination of philological and democratic processes is that previous choices tend to be repeated.[17]

[17] L. Vaganay and Christian-Bernard Amphoux, An Introduction To The New Testament Textual Criticism, 1986, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge (UK), p. 166.



Conclusion-You do not have a single source,but a mixture from different variants among Alexandrian texts. So you counting in your bible for errors doesn't mean anything.
Reply

Trumble
07-23-2009, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ibn-Ahmed Herz
I didn't say 10 words per page,I said 10 contradictions per page in the SOURCES for the bible. So its basically 10 concepts that conflict with each other on each page.
I am baffled by this. The Bible is primarily narrative in nature and I'm struggling to think of a page that even has ten 'concepts' susceptible to falsification or conflict. Different words, maybe.

Could you provide a few actual examples of passages that include such conflicting concepts? That would be much more helpful to your argument than numbers that must always be purely speculative, and really need backing up with something concrete.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-08-2009, 05:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

i actually dabble "in the study of" the study of historical criticism and textual criticism. i doubt a post or two could explain it to anyone.

let me paraphrase Bart Ehrman, of the 5,700 Greek manuscripts that we now have, NO TWO are alike! HOWEVER [according to Ehrman] the VAST MAJORITY of the differences [and there are more differences than there are words in the NT!] are spelling errors and word placement in the Greek, which according to Ehrman CANNOT be replicated in English. there ARE differences that affect what a text might mean, but it would be better to stick to what is generally believed by those that do study the field.

now, Professor Luke Timothy Johnson is also highly aware of textual and historical criticism. UNLIKE Ehrman, Professor Johnson's faith is not diminished by this, at least he says as much. the belief is that [and i'm paraphrasing] we still understand the [original] Message in spite of all of the complications. Ehrman would retort that it is impossible to to know what the original message was if you don't know what the original words were!

surprisingly, [and i haven't read Jesus Interrupted yet, but i am reading Misquoting Jesus and iv'e either watched or listened to all but one of Ehrmans lecture sets from the Teaching Company (found here http://www.teach12.com/storex/professor.aspx?ID=150 )] i prefer the approach of Professor Johnson WHEN EXPLAINING just what textual criticism is. (his set is here http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDe....aspx?cid=6252 ) so let me ask:

just what is textual criticism and how did it come about and why should a Christian OR ANYONE care?

:wa:
just bumping for now
Reply

Eric H
08-10-2009, 04:51 AM
Greetings and peace be with you YusufNoor;
so historical criticism is needed as well as textual criticism.
All the law and the prophets of God hang and depend on the two greatest commandments, of loving God with all our heart, soul mind and strength. And to love our neighbours as we love ourselves.

The Bible says much about the law and the prophets of God. If you can find something wrong or something greater than the greatest commandments, then the whole of the Bible makes little sense.

In the spirit of searching for a loving, merciful and forgiving God

Eric
Reply

YusufNoor
08-11-2009, 04:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you YusufNoor;

All the law and the prophets of God hang and depend on the two greatest commandments, of loving God with all our heart, soul mind and strength. And to love our neighbours as we love ourselves.

The Bible says much about the law and the prophets of God. If you can find something wrong or something greater than the greatest commandments, then the whole of the Bible makes little sense.

In the spirit of searching for a loving, merciful and forgiving God

Eric
are you smoking something? :p

this isn't about favorite quotes from the Bible. it's about the authenticity of the Bible, BUT only IF someone wanted to discuss it, preferably in a constructive manner. to that end, i've pretty much listed my sources in case someone wanted to check those and discuss it here or NOT. i find the topic fascinating now that i'm not so much attached to it as i was before.

IF it was about:

All the law and the prophets of God hang and depend on the two greatest commandments, of loving God with all our heart, soul mind and strength
then it would of need by of EXTREME importance to find out what those Prophets actually said about The Law and how that law would dictate how to obey and worship that God, wouldn't it?

and if we include the 2nd part:

And to love our neighbours as we love ourselves.
then why did Christians invent antisemitism [and is that Scriptural?] and why was Scripture used by Christians to subjugate the black race for Centuries?

see what i mean?

:wa:
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-12-2009, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
then why did Christians invent antisemitism [and is that Scriptural?] and why was Scripture used by Christians to subjugate the black race for Centuries?

:wa:

Because humans are basically sinners who frequently take God's good gifts and pervert them to their own ends. Christians are no better than other human beings in this regard, one might even say they are worse for they should know better, because throughout history we've taken God's word and twisted it to mean things that I'm sure God never intended it to be used for -- antisemitism and subjugating the black race are only two of a much longer list I am sad to say.
Reply

rpwelton
08-12-2009, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you YusufNoor;

All the law and the prophets of God hang and depend on the two greatest commandments, of loving God with all our heart, soul mind and strength. And to love our neighbours as we love ourselves.

The Bible says much about the law and the prophets of God. If you can find something wrong or something greater than the greatest commandments, then the whole of the Bible makes little sense.

In the spirit of searching for a loving, merciful and forgiving God

Eric
I don't want to spiral this thread off-topic, but I've had a question related to this burning in the back of my mind.

There is an instance in the Bible where Jesus is asked what the greatest commandment is:

"One of the teachers of the Law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, 'Of all the commandments, which is the most important?' 'The most important one', answered Jesus, 'is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Mark 12:28-29)

it continues...

(Jesus says) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these" (Mark 12:30-31)

Now, here's my question. Whenever I ask Christians what the greatest commandment is, they quote from this portion of Mark, but they begin at Mark 12:30, which means they skip over the part where Jesus explicitly says that God is One God (note that Mark 12:29 is a direct reference to what Moses says in Deuteronomy 6:4, which says the exact same thing).

Now, the two passages certainly aren't contradictory, but it does raise an interesting flag. Christians seem to skirt around the idea of "God is One" when making explicit statements explaining their faith, as though they find it counter-intuitive to the notion of the trinity. Yet when a Christian is asked if God is One, he or she says yes.

Any Christian care to explain this very interesting phenomenon?
Reply

Trumble
08-12-2009, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
Whenever I ask Christians what the greatest commandment is, they quote from this portion of Mark, but they begin at Mark 12:30, which means they skip over the part where Jesus explicitly says that God is One God (note that Mark 12:29 is a direct reference to what Moses says in Deuteronomy 6:4, which says the exact same thing).
And that's something you do often, is it? Over lunch? In the super-market? Come on, this just says STRAWMAN.

Christians seem to skirt around the idea of "God is One" when making explicit statements explaining their faith, as though they find it counter-intuitive to the notion of the trinity.
And that positively screams it! As, at least, a former Christian (albeit it a very long time ago) may I respectfully suggest the "interesting phenomenon" exists only in your imagination?
Reply

rpwelton
08-12-2009, 03:49 AM
^^

Why are you getting so bent out of shape over this as a former Christian? All I'm trying to do is explain my observations from hearing Christians speak about their concept of God and what they understand their religion to be. I've spoken to a number of Christians (being a former Christian myself) and watched numerous debates and lectures by Christians and they more or less all tend to quote the passage in the same way.

I'm just throwing my thought out there; I never said it's the trump card that disproves Christianity or anything like that. I'm just wondering why this passage is nearly always quoted starting halfway through.

Come on, now. If you'll read Eric H's post just above mine, he does the exact same thing I'm talking about.
Reply

Eric H
08-12-2009, 03:49 AM
Greetings and peace be with you rpwelton;

When you stop and reflect on the bible passage you quoted, it seems incomplete.

The Lord is one, but what is he one off, is he one in purpose, is he one God, or one of something else. It seems left open to interpretation.

In Islam, I think it says there is no other God than Allah.

God is so far beyond our understanding, and I feel he only reveals a part of himself in any of our holy scriptures. It seems strange in Mark 12:29, that Jesus talks about what is most important, and then describes the commandments as greatest, why the subtle difference?

Holy scriptures are open to interpretation, and are intended to inspire us and keep us searching for all our life, generation after generation. The Holy Bible fills that need for me despite all the things said about it and against it.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and merciful God

Eric
Reply

rpwelton
08-12-2009, 03:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you rpwelton;

When you stop and reflect on the bible passage you quoted, it seems incomplete.

The Lord is one, but what is he one off, is he one in purpose, is he one God, or one of something else. It seems left open to interpretation.

In Islam, I think it says there is no other God than Allah.

God is so far beyond our understanding, and I feel he only reveals a part of himself in any of our holy scriptures. It seems strange in Mark 12:29, that Jesus talks about what is most important, and then describes the commandments as greatest, why the subtle difference?

Holy scriptures are open to interpretation, and are intended to inspire us and keep us searching for all our life, generation after generation. The Holy Bible fills that need for me despite all the things said about it and against it.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and merciful God

Eric
OK, I can understand that. Certainly the whole passage together makes the most sense; so why do most people start mid-way through? Again, it's late at night and maybe I'm picking up on things that aren't really there, but surely it would make more sense for Christians to always start at the beginning (Mark 12:29) instead of one verse later.
Reply

Eric H
08-12-2009, 04:19 AM
Greetings and peace be with you rpwelton;

OK, I can understand that. Certainly the whole passage together makes the most sense; so why do most people start mid-way through? Again, it's late at night and maybe I'm picking up on things that aren't really there, but surely it would make more sense for Christians to always start at the beginning (Mark 12:29) instead of one verse later.

When it says the Lord is one, which is just a statement; the greatest commandments then explain a greatest way to live with this knowledge. I guess I am guilty of starting mid way through the passage, because the greatest commandments tell me what I have to do, and I seem to focus more on the doing part.

Maybe in future, I should start with the Lord is one, when I mention the greatest commandments, my apologies if I have added to your confussion

In the spirit of searching for a loving and merciful God

Eric
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YusufNoor
08-12-2009, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Because humans are basically sinners who frequently take God's good gifts and pervert them to their own ends. Christians are no better than other human beings in this regard, one might even say they are worse for they should know better, because throughout history we've taken God's word and twisted it to mean things that I'm sure God never intended it to be used for -- antisemitism and subjugating the black race are only two of a much longer list I am sad to say.
but these were institutionally done. antisemitism has it's roots in the teaching's of Paul, or maybe better stated as a result of Paul. from non circumcision, which looks innocent, to and i'll paraphrase, you cannot achieve any righteousness, because we are only righteous because Jesus died for us. it's an interesting theory, one that i disagree with [but that's irrelevant], but when you start to say that adopting ANY form of Judaism is a sin because you are trying to be righteous...that's where it begins.

by the time you get to the "Epistle" of Barnabas, it's near full bloom. carrying it forward, the "Church" tried for Centuries to "stamp out Jews and [the] "Jewishness" [of Christians] that it brings us up to the age of the African Captivity in Europe and America.

Luther & Company only went as far back as those Scriptures. for me, not nearly far enough back.

i listened to Erhman's 24 part lecture course From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity and i was struck by how much i had either forgot or never quite realized. then when i listened to After the New Testament: The Writings of the Apostolic Fathers i was further struck by how much it was "Christians" writings that fueled the fire along with [what i can only refer to as] the dramatic attempts by some sects of Christians to claim the [what i can only call] "conscientious objector" status that the Jews held in Pagan Rome. amazingly, they even attempted to "hijack" the TaNaK and make it their own. [which is why the call the TaNaK, the "Old Testament!"]

it's one of those things that prove FOR ME [i hope everyone see the emphasis there], that those folks were NEVER on the path that Jesus was.

now if i could only convince the folks that the "hatred of the Jews" is a Christian "sunnah".....
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-12-2009, 10:56 PM
Having already risked going off topic with my above post, I now plunge fully into the sea of alternative discussion.


No doubt that much of the evils of Christianity are of institutional origins. But why would that be surprising? Institution are, afterall, human inventions. And thus the product of sinful humans working cooperatively together in creating/developing an institution is just as likely to be sinful as any singular act by one individual human.

I will even agree that antisemiticism has (some of) its roots in the teachings of Paul. There are also roots in the book of John, and in the prevailing racism existant in the first century. But I think that is a far cry from saying that the NT (or any part of it) actually espouses racism. Rather, I think it is that people look to it to justify actions and ideas that they already possessed and found it in some things that they then would build upon -- all of it contrary to the actually intent of God or even the ethics of the biblical writers.

Likewise, some would see mysoginistic texts, child beatings, and a whole host of other evils scattered about in various verses and because their own hearts were inclined toward those evils twist those expressions around to substantiate that which I believe the Bible is actually against. I've often heard that you can prove most anything from the Bible. I'm not sure what the original meaning was behind such a comment, but today I find it true in that if one is seeking for a particular prooftext, that use of a concordance and a willingness to practice eisegesis along with selective quotes that ignore context one probably could get the Bible to say about anything one wanted even absurdities such as grass is blue and the sky green. So, that people have used the Bible to conclude some of the terrible things that they have doesn't really mean that the Bible supports those positions, only that people were willing to misuse even God's word for their own evil purposes. Sadly, at times it hasn't just been individuals who have so perverted the text, but the church itself has been guilty of such sin. About the only thing I can say in response to that today is to ask that God might forgive us and preserve from making the same mistakes again.

Whether those folks were on ever on the path that Jesus was, I can't say. I don't think they were on those issues, but they might have trying and simply failed for reasons that are beyond my understanding today. Would Jesus recognize Chrsitianity, Muhammed recognize Islam, or Buddha recognize Buddhism were they to return today? Even if on the whole the probable answer is Yes, I suspect that in each of them there are things that we are blind to how we have changed them from what the original meaing/understanding was. The problem is that being blind to those changes we can't even identify what they are in order to correct our present day mistakes.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-13-2009, 02:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Having already risked going off topic with my above post, I now plunge fully into the sea of alternative discussion.

I will even agree that antisemiticism has (some of) its roots in the teachings of Paul.
THAT is what i am saying, PLUS a little bit more...

There are also roots in the book of John, and in the prevailing racism existant in the first century.
the letters of Paul were written before the Gospels, though each Gospel tends to assign a bit different weight to the fault of the Jews for the [apparent] crucifixion

But I think that is a far cry from saying that the NT (or any part of it) actually espouses racism.
i didn't say it initiates it as a cause célèbre. but rather it is the [unintended?] consequence.

Rather, I think it is that people look to it to justify actions and ideas that they already possessed and found it in some things that they then would build upon -- all of it contrary to the actually intent of God or even the ethics of the biblical writers.

Whether those folks were on ever on the path that Jesus was, I can't say. I don't think they were on those issues, but they might have trying and simply failed for reasons that are beyond my understanding today.
what about Barnabas, is he not considered an Apostolic Father?

Would Jesus recognize Chrsitianity,
methinks no...

Muhammed recognize Islam,
we have a strong hope, but would expect a lot of anger...

or Buddha recognize Buddhism
not relevant

were they to return today? Even if on the whole the probable answer is Yes, I suspect that in each of them there are things that we are blind to how we have changed them from what the original meaing/understanding was. The problem is that being blind to those changes we can't even identify what they are in order to correct our present day mistakes.
as i appended the thought, antisemitism is a result of Paul. as Paul struggle to deal with the "vision" he had when he fell of his horse and tried to make sense of the [apparent] crucifixion in his writings. the next group has to deal with his letters! i see no other destination once he pens[in Galations 5]:

2 Behold I, (D)Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to (H)keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


while this is directed at the Gauls, consider it's impact on the NEXT generation of of Jews, do you circumcise them? if you do, they are now, "severed from Christ!?" and if ANY observance of the Law "severs you from Christ" this pretty much mandates a separation of the Jews and the Christians. [despite the fact the other NT writers hint at keeping the law, especially Peter in Acts 10.] thus, let's call it the mustard seed, eventually leads to, Barnabas 4:6-8

6 ...And yet again, I am asking you this as one who is from among you and who loves each and every one of you more than my own soul: watch yourselves now and do not become like some people by piling up your sins, saying that they covenant is both theirs and ours.
7 For it is ours. but they permanently post it, in this way, when Moses had just received it[!] For the Scripture says, "Moses was on the mountain fasting for forty days and forty nights, and he received the covenant from the Lord, stone tablets written with the finger of the Lord's own hand."
But when they turned back to idols they lost it. For the Lord says this: Moses, Moses, go down quickly, because your people. whom you lead from the land of Egypt, has broken the law . Moses understood this and cast the two tablets from his hands. And their covenant was smashed - [that the covenant of his beloved, Jesus, might be sealed in our hearts, in the hope brought by faith in him.]

which seem a blatant lie that casts dispersions of the Jewish faith of the last millennium. [not that the Jews/Hebrew/Israelites didn't do enough of that themselves] but if there were no longer any Covenant with the Hebrews/Jews, then there is no expectation of the Messiah either!

to show Barnabas' error:

The Covenant Renewed Exodus 34

10Then God said, "Behold, I am going to make a covenant Before all your people I will perform miracles which have not been produced in all the earth nor among any of the nations; and all the people among whom you live will see the working of the LORD, for it is a fearful thing that I am going to perform with you.

11"Be sure to observe what I am commanding you this day: behold, I am going to drive out the Amorite before you, and the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite.
12"Watch yourself that you make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, or it will become a snare in your midst.
13"But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim
14--for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God--
15otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice,
16and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods.
17"You shall make for yourself no molten gods.
18"You shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread For seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the )month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt.
19")The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep.
20"You shall redeem with a lamb the first offspring from a donkey; and if you do not redeem it, then you shall break its neck You shall redeem all the firstborn of your sons None shall appear before Me empty-handed.
21"You shall work six days, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during plowing time and harvest you shall rest.
22"You shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.
23"Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
24"For I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your borders, and no man shall covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD your God.
25"You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread, nor is the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover to be left over until morning.
26"You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. "You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk."
27Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

28So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

so Barnabas loves the them so much that he distorts the truth, not only about the Hebrews/Jews, BUT about GOD as well!

this plays a part in History as the Christians try to convince the Pagans that the Old Testament belongs to them and NOT the Jews and that is THEM who should be granted excuse from sacrificing to the Emperor. and further more, according to Barnabas, the Jews are some kind of "friggin" morons and degenerates for not realizing that they have been so clueless for the last 1300 years! [that's rather simplified, but as i've been typing for over an hour, i'll just end...]

i think that even Bugs Bunny treated Elmer Fudd better than that.

i'm just saying...
Reply

جوري
08-13-2009, 02:34 AM
^^ I can't rep you for that, but I have read every word and I certainly appreciate the distillate of your many hours worth of effort.. I know what it is like to waste hours writing and quoting with the other party uninterested or distorting as I have experienced on the authenticity of the Quran thread.. Jazaka Allah khyran

:w:
Reply

Follower
08-13-2009, 01:41 PM
rpwelton- the Christian concept of who GOD is is different then the muslims. To the Christian GOD is ONE.

Ibn Ahmed Herz - "The Gnostic gospels were gospels rejected by the early church before and during the advent of the council of nicea. The council of nicea was held during 325 AD."

Are you saying that Muslims believe the Gnostic scriptures to be the correct one?

What about the fact that the students of the original Disciples way before 325 AD knew which scriptures were correct and these were passed down to their students and the earlist church fathers? The Matthew, Mark, Luke and John Synoptic Gospel was always considered true and not just decided on in 325 AD.

Do you believe Christianity would have been "better off" by destroying the Gnostic, false and Apocrypha scriptures?
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Follower
08-13-2009, 01:54 PM
Paul was not promoting antisemitism so much as trying to get Jews to allow Gentiles to worship with them without going through the pains- literally LOL! of fufilling the Law that was meant for the Jews.

If you read Acts 15 you see that a whole group met to figure out how to deal with the situation and follow Jesus' teachings-

1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
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rpwelton
08-13-2009, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
rpwelton- the Christian concept of who GOD is is different then the muslims. To the Christian GOD is ONE.

Ibn Ahmed Herz - "The Gnostic gospels were gospels rejected by the early church before and during the advent of the council of nicea. The council of nicea was held during 325 AD."

Are you saying that Muslims believe the Gnostic scriptures to be the correct one?

What about the fact that the students of the original Disciples way before 325 AD knew which scriptures were correct and these were passed down to their students and the earlist church fathers? The Matthew, Mark, Luke and John Synoptic Gospel was always considered true and not just decided on in 325 AD.

Do you believe Christianity would have been "better off" by destroying the Gnostic, false and Apocrypha scriptures?
LOL, and the Muslims don't claim that God is One?

And when did I ever mention Gnostic gospels? I've never even read a gnostic gospel, so I can claim zero authority on saying anything about those.
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Uthman
08-13-2009, 02:20 PM
Please stick to the topic. Thank you. :)
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Zafran
08-13-2009, 02:32 PM
mark 16-9-20 is a corruption not in codex vaticanus can someone tell me where it is? the earliest manuscript evedince.
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Follower
08-13-2009, 04:10 PM
sorry Uthmann!!

rpwelton - "LOL, and the Muslims don't claim that God is One?"
There is no question that GOD is One but what that ONE is, how we define this One GOD, understand the make-up of this One GOD.

And when did I ever mention Gnostic gospels? I've never even read a gnostic gospel, so I can claim zero authority on saying anything about those.
That was intended for Ibn Ahmed Herz.

Back on topic -

Here is a very good article on the subject of Bible authenticity:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780
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MSalman
08-13-2009, 04:22 PM
my question to Christians is simple: how can you trust a book which has unknown authors? How do you get around this big problem?
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Follower
08-13-2009, 06:17 PM
2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Does this sound anything Mohammad would say about his Quran? A book saying of itself that it is from GOD. Or a man sying of himself that he is a prophet of GOD.

Where is the proof that it is GOD's inspired Word?

http://www.bibletruths.org/salvation/wordgod.html
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جوري
08-13-2009, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
my question to Christians is simple: how can you trust a book which has unknown authors? How do you get around this big problem?
Haven't you read Follower's pearls? a disciple of saul amended it, thus, it is enough of a testimony to the truth ...

I'd recommend you simply focus on bro. Yusuf's very detailed biblical passages which covers internal error of the saulian documents, it is enough a testimony to the scope of discrepancy. I am rather fascinated by how far back antisemitism started in christian literature and mythology.

:w:
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Grace Seeker
08-13-2009, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
my question to Christians is simple: how can you trust a book which has unknown authors? How do you get around this big problem?
First, we don't see it as getting around something. Not sure what there is to get around. Authorship is important, but is only one of the criteria for inclusion in the canon.

Then too the level of trust that you reference probably varies with the theological bent of the reader. Some Christians believe the whole Bible to be the literally inspired and dictated word of God to human who served more as scribes than as authors, so it isn't really important who the human author was as God is believed to be its divine author. Other Christians on the other end of the spectrum see the Bible as a collection of writings which reflect the faith of the community at a particular given point in time, but sees the whole process as being purely human in origin. Some of these folks label themselves as Christian but in fact don't trust the Bible at all. And of course there are folks, like myself, who are somewhere inbetween those points of view.

I understand that the early church accepted the books that were in use by the Jews of their day as the canon for what would come to be known as the Old Testament. (Disagreements between Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox believers as to what the collection of books accepted by the Jews was has led to two different lists of books that are considered canonical with regard to the Old Testament.) The New Testament was formed not by committee (I don't care how many times people try to throw the Council of Nicea at me, they are oversimplifying the process), but by a slowly agreed upon consensus formed within the church over time that was later confirmed by the action of church councils. This process included criteria such as whether the books were in use by the church for not just personal reading, but in corporate worship? Were they connected to an apostle? Were they used throughout the church?

Many books might have passed one or two of these tests, but few passed all of them. Your question about authorship was key to the rejection of many. For instance, Yusuf mentioned the Epsitle of Barnabas (not to be confused with the supposed "gospel" of Barnabbas, which is a whole other story). It was a well respected piece of Christian literature. In widespread usage in the church. I don't know to what degree it was utilized in corporate worship, but it eventually failed the authorship test. Though it carried the name of Barnabas, the church did not really believe the letter to have been written by the Barnabbas mentioned in the book of Acts. Other letters such as Hebrews, whose authorship is unknown, probably got accepted because it was originally thought to be a letter of Paul or one of Paul's disciples. Though Paul's authorship of Hebrews is summarily rejected today, it's inclusion in the canon seems secure given its long established place within it.

Ultimately then, it seems that it is the Church itself, acting as the body of Christ, which claims the authority to decide what is and is not canonical. I suspect that will be satisfactory for some, and not for others -- but like it or not, that's the way it is.
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rpwelton
08-13-2009, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Ultimately then, it seems that it is the Church itself, acting as the body of Christ, which claims the authority to decide what is and is not canonical. I suspect that will be satisfactory for some, and not for others -- but like it or not, that's the way it is.
Is this Church a collective body of all trinitarian Christians, or only Protestants or only Catholics? When Catholics say "The Church" I understand what they mean because Catholicism has a central "power", whereas Protestantism does not. Or is the "Church" more theoretical and intangible in nature, referring perhaps to a collective spirit?
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YusufNoor
08-13-2009, 11:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
sorry Uthmann!!

rpwelton - "LOL, and the Muslims don't claim that God is One?"
There is no question that GOD is One but what that ONE is, how we define this One GOD, understand the make-up of this One GOD.

And when did I ever mention Gnostic gospels? I've never even read a gnostic gospel, so I can claim zero authority on saying anything about those.
That was intended for Ibn Ahmed Herz.

Back on topic -

Here is a very good article on the subject of Bible authenticity:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2780
actually, that link is only about Mark 16:9-20.

it has this cool graph that it won't let me copy here. anyways, Christians believe that the NT was originally in Greek [although the Injeel would have had to have been Aramaic]; that being the case the article actually proves that Mark 16:9-20 IS a fabrication!

it CLEARLY shows that Mark 16:9-20 is NOT in ANY Greek Manuscript before the 5th Century!

Paul was not promoting antisemitism so much as trying to get Jews to allow Gentiles to worship with them without going through the pains- literally LOL! of fufilling the Law that was meant for the Jews.
no one says Paul was promoting antisemitism; the point was that much like Paul spent time trying to figure out the reason for the [alleged] crucifixion, Christians AFTER Paul had to make sense of his writings!

IF Paul was correct in his deductions, then why was Peter STILL keeping KOSHER in Acts 10.? THE POINT being that Paul made this deduction and started preaching it.

Paul's words were later twisted into the words in Barnabas, which WAS considered canonical by many churches.

I am rather fascinated by how far back antisemitism started in christian literature and mythology.
i am as well and maybe another thread when i have time, In Sha'a Allah!

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

this is rather silly. let me illustrate by asking you a few questions:

who wrote 2nd Timothy?

when was it written?

and when it was written, what books were considered "Scripture?"


Does this sound anything Mohammad would say about his Quran? A book saying of itself that it is from GOD.

KhalamAllah! the word of Allah!

Or a man sying of himself that he is a prophet of GOD.

so Paul is then considered a Prophet?

Where is the proof that it is GOD's inspired Word?
Ultimately then, it seems that it is the Church itself, acting as the body of Christ, which claims the authority to decide what is and is not canonical. I suspect that will be satisfactory for some, and not for others -- but like it or not, that's the way it is.
when did the Church decide that the "current list of canonical books" is the Bible?

and is that your Church?

and finally, i intend to transcribe a bit of a lecture by Luke Timothy Johnson, In Sha'a Allah. it may take a while, but it should be of interest.

:wa:
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جوري
08-14-2009, 12:49 AM
^^ another great thread..

I found this by Br. Ansar Al'Adl
perhaps it is of use to you in your studies insha'Allah..


Jesus says that our good works are necessary and meaningful (Matt. 5:16; John 10:24-25) while Paul says they are worthless and unnecessary (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:6-14).

Jesus exhorts his followers to strictly adhere to the laws and commandments (Mark 10:18-19; Matt. 19:17; Luke 18:20) while Paul calls the law and commandments a “curse” and “bondage” (Gal. 2:16, 3:11, 24; Rom. 2:13). (SOURCE)

:w:
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YusufNoor
08-14-2009, 03:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
^^ another great thread..

I found this by Br. Ansar Al'Adl
perhaps it is of use to you in your studies insha'Allah..


Jesus says that our good works are necessary and meaningful (Matt. 5:16; John 10:24-25) while Paul says they are worthless and unnecessary (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:6-14).

Jesus exhorts his followers to strictly adhere to the laws and commandments (Mark 10:18-19; Matt. 19:17; Luke 18:20) while Paul calls the law and commandments a “curse” and “bondage” (Gal. 2:16, 3:11, 24; Rom. 2:13). (SOURCE)

there are actually differences BETWEEN the Gospels! In Sha'a Allah, we will get to that.
:w:
i have finished the part of Luke Timothy Johnson's lecture that i wanted folks to be able to read. sometimes people just see a chart or something that you have to figure out. i really like how Professor Johnson put this, so here it is:

…Religious tradition ascribes these 5 books, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy to the Prophet and Lawgiver Moses, who lived in the 13th BCE, and had led the people out of Egypt. Since the Enlightenment, unanimously agreed [that’s the 1st time I heard anyone say unanimously, so don’t have a cow] that the composition of these 5 books involved a more complex process that took place over a considerable period of time. This is one of the ways in which a traditional understanding of authorship and a more critical Scholarly understanding of authorship come to quite different conclusions.

19th Century source criticism of the Pentateuch observed several features of these 5 books that called out for explanation such as doublets and different designations for God. Let me talk a little bit about each of those. As we read the stories in the Books of Moses we see sometimes that the same story seems to be told twice, these are called doublets. So for example in Genesis 1 we have a creation account in which god creates everything simply by a word including male and female in the image of God. But then in chapter 2 of Genesis there is quite a distinct creation account in which God creates the male and then creates the female out of the rib the male with no mention about being made of being made in the image of God. There are 2 creation accounts. Similarly, in Genesis 6 and 7 there seem to be 2 versions of the Noah and the flood story that are interwoven creating certain inconsistencies within the story. Or in Genesis 12:1-20 we see that Abraham, with his wife Sarah goes to Egypt and out of fear that his wife will be taken away from him, he asks Sarah to say that she is his sister. 14 chapters later in Genesis 26:6-11, we see Isaac with his wife Rebecca going into the land of the Philistines and out of fear he asks his wife to say, “I am his sister” rather than his wife. And so these are called doublets, and call out for explanation.

Similarly different parts of the story use different designations consistently for God. In some the name Yahweh, the Sacred Tetragrammaton, is used. In others the Hebrew term Elohim; a more generic term for God is used. And sometimes there seems to be a conflation, [which] is the Lord God, Yahweh Elohim, is used. How do we account for these?

Although the precise delineation of the sources is debated, many scholars perceive 4 distinct sources for the 5 Books of Moses, which are called the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly sources. Even more vigorously debated is the assignment of distinct periods of composition, according to the supposed outlook of these sources. The Yahwist and the Elohist are taking to be the oldest sources perhaps in the 10th and 9th Centuries before the Common Era, with the South Kingdom [Judah, thus J] being represented by the Yahwist and the Northern Kingdom [Ephraim, thus E] being represented by the Elohist. And the Deuteronomist as a reform voice in the 6th Century (BCE) that not only accounts for the Book of Deuteronomy but also stamps the entire history from Joshua through Kings with it’s distinctive reformist outlook. And then the Priestly editor coming at the end very much concerned with genealogies, with the laws for sacrifice, with the Temple, what is clean and unclean. Now, according to this understanding then, the oldest parts of the Books of Moses would come from the 10th Century [BCE] from the Yahwist and the newest parts would have been written last in the 5th Century perhaps by the Priestly editor. According to this reading, the very 1st part of Genesis, “In the Beginning god created heaven and earth” would have been the last written. It would have been written by the Priestly editor to begin the whole.

Now all of this is debated by scholars and needs to be supplemented by other considerations such as oral tradition, such as other forms of rhetoric and so forth available in antiquity.

The basic point is that the 5 books of Moses came into being over a long period of time through a complex process…


that is from Disc 1 lecture 2 of the link i posted before.

for a full reading on this subject, i recommend:

Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote The Bible?, seen here:

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-Bibl.../dp/0060630353

just make sure that you get the 2nd Edition. i get them at Half Price Books for about $8 a pop.

ooop, prayer time...

:wa:
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جوري
08-14-2009, 03:27 AM
what is the point of prophets stating their wives are their sisters, what is the point of that? as it is actually later understood as such especially in the case of Abraham (p)

:w:
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YusufNoor
08-14-2009, 04:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
what is the point of prophets stating their wives are their sisters, what is the point of that? as it is actually later understood as such especially in the case of Abraham (p)

:w:
:sl:

the King will see how beautiful your wife is. if he kills you, she is not your wife no more, and he can take her. imsad

HOWEVER if she is your sister, he will STILL take her, but you become the King's best friend. cuz he's married to your sister! or so he thinks...:hmm:

:wa:
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

the King will see how beautiful your wife is. if he kills you, she is not your wife no more, and he can take her. imsad

HOWEVER if she is your sister, he will STILL take her, but you become the King's best friend. cuz he's married to your sister! or so he thinks...:hmm:

:wa:

Rofl.. I am sorry but that was hilarious.. was there a shortage of women then? It reminds me of a biblical story I read, I am not sure where.
When a passerby came the man of the house offered his daughter to him (to be hospitable) then a bunch of rapists came strolling into town, they raped the girl until sunrise taking turns and of course she died, and when the guest was awe struck by their barbarity he decided to cut her up into pieces and send her to each tribe to show them the wrongs of their way, or maybe mounted a donkey and took her to each tribe dead so they can see the wrong of their ways.. ;D I wish I had saved it as I don't remember every detail but it was the most fantastic thing I'd ever read...

:w:
Reply

YusufNoor
08-14-2009, 04:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Rofl.. I am sorry but that was hilarious.. was there a shortage of women then? It reminds me of a biblical story I read, I am not sure where.
When a passerby came the man of the house offered his daughter to him (to be hospitable) then a bunch of rapists came strolling into town, they raped the girl until sunrise taking turns and of course she died, and when the guest was awe struck by their barbarity he decided to cut her up into pieces and send her to each tribe to show them the wrongs of their way, or maybe mounted a donkey and took her to each tribe dead so they can see the wrong of their ways.. ;D I wish I had saved it as I don't remember every detail but it was the most fantastic thing I'd ever read...

:w:
:sl:

that's Judges Chapters 20. but you need to read until the end of 21 to hear the whole story!

:wa:
Reply

Supercareful
08-14-2009, 04:58 AM
:salamext:

I am still in the middle of this thread but noticed the offtopics including the last two :embarrass:(please forgive me Gossamer Skye and YusufNoor) but brother Uthman has already warned not to get offtopic on many other threads in the Comparative Religion section of this forum. JazakAllah Khayr,just reminding. May Allah(Subhan'Allah Tala) give us the blessings and permits us to act upon this and attain hasnaeet(good deeds).

:salamext:
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 05:20 AM
^^ are you related to our dearly departed member young yanal? (technically your post is off topic too :D) we haven't taken a large detour we are still on the unusual contents of the bible which we can file under unauthentic or questionable .. I wouldn't be too worried about either of our fate for a small detour!

:w:
Reply

Supercareful
08-14-2009, 05:22 AM
:salamext:

No I am not sister. If you can you may check my IP inshallah.

Ok I agree but let that be a simple reminder for future reference inshallah.
Reply

جوري
08-14-2009, 05:28 AM
hm...what would a complex reminder be like?
you can always use the red button to report posts that you feel aren't in concert with the topic, and I believe that would be up to the mods to decide whether to remove or if it is of relevance...

:w:
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-14-2009, 12:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
Is this Church a collective body of all trinitarian Christians, or only Protestants or only Catholics? When Catholics say "The Church" I understand what they mean because Catholicism has a central "power", whereas Protestantism does not. Or is the "Church" more theoretical and intangible in nature, referring perhaps to a collective spirit?

The way I was using the term "church" in my post was not a reference to the Catholic Church, nor to Protestantism, but to a larger concept of the entire body of Christ, that is all those who belong to Jesus. So, yes, it would be something that is both intangible and a collective of all Christians (including people like Arius who were definitely not trinitarian but were part of the early church, even if a heretic*).




*(I know, it has to be confusing how someone who is identified as a heretic today could be considered part of the church, but the definition of a heretic is one who has received and then turned away from the truth, so the only way to be a heretic is to have first been part of the church. People who are never believers in the first place therefore cannot be heretics.)
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Grace Seeker
08-14-2009, 12:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
…Religious tradition ascribes these 5 books, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy to the Prophet and Lawgiver Moses, who lived in the 13th BCE, and had led the people out of Egypt. Since the Enlightenment, unanimously agreed [that’s the 1st time I heard anyone say unanimously, so don’t have a cow] that the composition of these 5 books involved a more complex process that took place over a considerable period of time. This is one of the ways in which a traditional understanding of authorship and a more critical Scholarly understanding of authorship come to quite different conclusions.
No, "cow", but a little beef. What Johnson puts forward here is generally referenced as the Graf-Wellhausen developmental hypothesis. It most certainly is widely accepted by many scholars today. But it has never been universally received. So, what is the beef? If anyone writes that it is "unanimously agreed", they are ignoring those who disagree with them. Such a person is not truthful, and thus it calls the rest of their statements into question as to how truthful they are in presenting that material. On the whole I don't have a problem with the larger argument that Johnson presents. It seems to fairly accurately present the theory at an easy to understand level for the lay reader, but it is also worth noting that it has less acceptance today than it once did, and given what is at least overstated hyperbole regarding the theories level of acceptance, I doubt that Johnson wrestles with those criticisms very well.

Other equally notable scholars were far from being convinced of the merits of many aspects of the evolutionary position that had been set out so plausibly by Wellhausen. Eduard Riehm attacked the view that the Priestly Code was the latest part of the Pentetuech, observing that the Deuteronomic legislation presupposed acquaintance with it. Dillmann placed the Priestly Code considerably prior to Deuteronomy in terms of development, and assigned the bulk of the Holiness Code, to which he accorded the designation S(iani), to an even earlier date. Baudissin placed the Law of Holiness in the pre-Deuteronomic period, while Kittel held that the Priestly literature had existed for a prolonged time as a document of ecclesiastical law, available only to the priests at first but subsequently made public by force of circumstance.

Whereas Dillman, Kittel, and Baudissin tended towards a mediating view of the Preistly material, Franz Delitzch openly attacked the entire Wellhausenian shceme in his commentary on Genesis. He held that all sections of the Pentateuch specifically attributed to Moses in the text were in fact from his hand, while other portions of his legal enactments were given their final form by priestly circles during the settlement period....

[Meaning that Delitzch would even disagree with your "basic point -- that the 5 books of Moses came into being over a long period of time through a complex process…"]

A different form of attack upon the views of Wellhausen came in 1893, when A. Klostermann rejected the developmental hypothesis and replaced it with his own version of the crystallization theory of Ewald and Knobel. In his work he postulated the existence of an original Mosiac nucleus of law which, because of its liturgical use, was expanded by priestly editors.


source: Introduction to the Old Testament, R.K. Harrison, Eerdmans Publishing, 1969, p. 23.
And those are just "Enlightenment" figures that argued against the developmental theory. Succeeding generations have produced even more critiques. That said, it must be admitted that Wellhausen is widely regarded, and even among his critics it is generally not the whole but only particular portions or conclusions with regard to its application that are disputed, but it is certainly not the only theory that is in vogue among biblical scholars and to present it as such requires Johnson to participate in a distortion of both the truth and of history.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-14-2009, 01:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
No, "cow", but a little beef. What Johnson puts forward here is generally referenced as the Graf-Wellhausen developmental hypothesis. It most certainly is widely accepted by many scholars today. But it has never been universally received. So, what is the beef? If anyone writes that it is "unanimously agreed", they are ignoring those who disagree with them. Such a person is not truthful, and thus it calls the rest of their statements into question as to how truthful they are in presenting that material. On the whole I don't have a problem with the larger argument that Johnson presents. It seems to fairly accurately present the theory at an easy to understand level for the lay reader, but it is also worth noting that it has less acceptance today than it once did, and given what is at least overstated hyperbole regarding the theories level of acceptance, I doubt that Johnson wrestles with those criticisms very well.

he didn't "write it," i did. i was transcribing his lecture. everybody makes mistakes, but rather than edit it so that you never knew he made it, i did the honest thing and left it in. the lecturers at the Teaching Company speak before a very small group, however, they rapidly "perform" 4-6 lectures in a row. they all make mistakes, yet they are still the best lectures series that i've ever heard.

And those are just "Enlightenment" figures that argued against the developmental theory. Succeeding generations have produced even more critiques. That said, it must be admitted that Wellhausen is widely regarded, and even among his critics it is generally not the whole but only particular portions or conclusions with regard to its application that are disputed, but it is certainly not the only theory that is in vogue among biblical scholars and to present it as such requires Johnson to participate in a distortion of both the truth and of history.
regarding;

Other equally notable scholars were far from being convinced of the merits of many aspects of the evolutionary position that had been set out so plausibly by Wellhausen. Eduard Riehm attacked the view that the Priestly Code was the latest part of the Pentetuech, observing that the Deuteronomic legislation presupposed acquaintance with it. Dillmann placed the Priestly Code considerably prior to Deuteronomy in terms of development, and assigned the bulk of the Holiness Code, to which he accorded the designation S(iani), to an even earlier date. Baudissin placed the Law of Holiness in the pre-Deuteronomic period, while Kittel held that the Priestly literature had existed for a prolonged time as a document of ecclesiastical law, available only to the priests at first but subsequently made public by force of circumstance.
iirc from Friedman, you have TWO Priestly sources. Friedman puts "P" before "D." However, the FINAL writer/editor/redactor is identifiable to the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. Ezra was a product of the priestly class, thus if ALL of the "P" stuff is assigned to him, your dates will be out of whack.

where they agree is:

The basic point is that the 5 books of Moses came into being over a long period of time through a complex process…


MY purpose here is to introduce what "Scholars" say on some of these issues and hopefully my brothers ans sisters in the Islamic faith can discuss said issues without relying on less studied individuals.

:wa:
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Grace Seeker
08-14-2009, 03:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
MY purpose here is to introduce what "Scholars" say on some of these issues and hopefully my brothers ans sisters in the Islamic faith can discuss said issues without relying on less studied individuals.

:wa:
And I DO appreciate that. So, let me reaffirm, that the JEDP evolutionary document hypothesis proposed by Graf and further developed by Wellhausen, is indeed a well-respected hypothesis accepted by many scholars. It isn't universally agreed upon as accurately representing the development of the Old Testament, but even critics of it such as myself must admit that there is much to it that has merit and it should not be rejected out of hand.


To take it back to the question previously asked by a poster regarding how Christians can trust a book with an unknown author -- as regards to the Old Testament, specifically the Pentatuech, you would have two groups formed from those who accept this evolutionary hypothesis. One would simply see the whole things as an anthrological experiment in communal writing by a given faith community. They wouldn't see it as God's word any more than they would see Wikipedia as being authoritative. For them the Pentateuch is just the first significant example of open source composition. The other group would still contend that God was the one leading the editing and complining process. So it is academic as to whether it was all in Moses' hand or if it was re-written by others because God was the actual author behind the scenes no matter who, when, where or how many times pen was put to paper.

And then others of us, like Franz Delitzch mentioned above, think that JEDP remains unproven and that the argument for Moses' hand remains strong, even if there was minor editting later, and thus the question of authorship is unfounded.

One of those attacks on the Graf-Wellhausen theory is made by Wilhelm Moller, who had once been an ardent supporter of the documentary hypothesis. His most important work, Wieder den Bann dar Quellenscheidung (1912) subjected the critical hypothesis to a searching examination. Moller argues both for the unity and authorship of the Pentateuch. It must be understood that the JEDP theory developed as a response to perceived problems with the Pentateuch -- for instance the doublets previously mentioned. Moller repudiates the general approach that the documentary hypothesis takes to those suggested problems and explains things such as the two divine names as being in fact indicative of two different functions. Thus Elohim was employed where the reference was to to the activitiy of God in nature, whereas the tetragrammaton YHWH was used specifically of the God of revelation.

What I am pointing out is that the traditional understanding of authorship is not without signficant scholarly support. So it is not just that there is a difference between critical scholarly understandings and traditional understandings as you suggest:
This is one of the ways in which a traditional understanding of authorship and a more critical Scholarly understanding of authorship come to quite different conclusions.
The reality is that there are significant differences among those scholars. Those who hold to the more traditional views are in fact also supported in their views by critical scholarship as well.
Reply

Follower
08-14-2009, 09:39 PM
2 Timothy 1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,

Who wrote down each specific verse of the Quran?

This eally off tpic but it is such a very simple fact -

faith without works is dead
and
you can not be saved by your works.

Even a muslim will not be saved by their works for it is still left up to allah to decide isn't it? Will your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds?
Reply

Gubbleknucker
08-15-2009, 08:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Will your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds?
Yes.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-15-2009, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And I DO appreciate that. So, let me reaffirm, that the JEDP evolutionary document hypothesis proposed by Graf and further developed by Wellhausen, is indeed a well-respected hypothesis accepted by many scholars. It isn't universally agreed upon as accurately representing the development of the Old Testament, but even critics of it such as myself must admit that there is much to it that has merit and it should not be rejected out of hand.


To take it back to the question previously asked by a poster regarding how Christians can trust a book with an unknown author -- as regards to the Old Testament, specifically the Pentatuech, you would have two groups formed from those who accept this evolutionary hypothesis. One would simply see the whole things as an anthrological experiment in communal writing by a given faith community. They wouldn't see it as God's word any more than they would see Wikipedia as being authoritative. For them the Pentateuch is just the first significant example of open source composition. The other group would still contend that God was the one leading the editing and complining process. So it is academic as to whether it was all in Moses' hand or if it was re-written by others because God was the actual author behind the scenes no matter who, when, where or how many times pen was put to paper.

And then others of us, like Franz Delitzch mentioned above, think that JEDP remains unproven and that the argument for Moses' hand remains strong, even if there was minor editting later, and thus the question of authorship is unfounded.

One of those attacks on the Graf-Wellhausen theory is made by Wilhelm Moller, who had once been an ardent supporter of the documentary hypothesis. His most important work, Wieder den Bann dar Quellenscheidung (1912) subjected the critical hypothesis to a searching examination. Moller argues both for the unity and authorship of the Pentateuch. It must be understood that the JEDP theory developed as a response to perceived problems with the Pentateuch -- for instance the doublets previously mentioned. Moller repudiates the general approach that the documentary hypothesis takes to those suggested problems and explains things such as the two divine names as being in fact indicative of two different functions. Thus Elohim was employed where the reference was to to the activitiy of God in nature, whereas the tetragrammaton YHWH was used specifically of the God of revelation.

What I am pointing out is that the traditional understanding of authorship is not without signficant scholarly support. So it is not just that there is a difference between critical scholarly understandings and traditional understandings as you suggest: The reality is that there are significant differences among those scholars. Those who hold to the more traditional views are in fact also supported in their views by critical scholarship as well.
:sl:

i'm lucky that i don't have vested interest in this matter [or at least not so much when i read it]. Professor Friedman's book is a "must read." for while being a teacher of Hebrew [as well as having his own commentary of the Torah published], breaks down the historical reasons for the differences in J and E. when the Nation was unified under David and the capitol moved to Jerusalem, the "Torah traditions" [MY words] of the north and south were combined. when the split happened after Solomon, the priests in Jerusalem [Aaronites] wanted to keep their new found "gigs" [MY word, again] and so they tried to discredit the priests of Bethel [Mu*s*h*i*tes] should some descendants crawl out of the woodwork and claim superiority over them. it was P that tells us the Moses face was disfigured from "talking with God,' and who introduced the SECOND waters of Mirebah story that claims that Moses sinned against God!

what other scholars get stuck in is that the figure Ezra for P, but that is not the case. Ezra, while an author of alot of the K'tuvim [the K of TaNak], should rightly be seen as R, the final redactor! by Ezra's time, Jerusalem was laid waste, the Temple needed to be rebuilt and total power needed to be placed in the hands of the priests.

here is an excerpt from pages 217-218 of Professor Friedman's book, which i can't recommend enough!

Chapter 13 The Great Irony

The combination of P with J, E, and D was even more extraordinary than the combination of J and E with each other had been centuries earlier. P was polemic – it was the an answer-Torah to J and E. JE denigrated Aaron. P denigrated Moses. JE assumed that any Levite could be a priest. P said that only men who were descendants of Aaron could be priests. JE said that there were angels, that animals could talk, and that God could be found standing on a rock or walking through the Garden of Eden. P would have none of that.

D, meanwhile, came from a circle of people were as hostile to P as the P-circle was to JE. These two priestly groups had struggled, over centuries, for priestly prerogatives, authority, income, and legitimacy.

And now someone was putting all of these works together.

Someone was combining JE with the work that was written as an alternative to it. And this person was not merely combining them side by side, as parallel stories. He or she was cutting and intersecting them intricately. At the end of this combined, interwoven collection of the laws and stories of J, E, and P, this person set Deuteronomy, the farewell speeches of Moses as a conclusion. Someone was merging the four different, often opposing sources so artfully that it would take millennia to figure it out.

This was the person who created the Torah, the Five Books of Moses that we have read for over two thousand years. Who was this person? Why did he or she do it?

This was the first question of the book: if Moses did not produce these books, who did?

I think that it was Ezra.
if i have time, In Sha'a Allah,i will get back to more of Professor Johnson before Ramadhan. i just wanted to interject a little Friedman at this point.

here's a link to Professor Friedman's book:

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-Bibl.../dp/0060630353

if you have a half price books around, i get them there for about $7-8! just make sure it is 2nd edition, which is the one in the link.

:wa:
Reply

Zafran
08-15-2009, 10:54 PM
Even a muslim will not be saved by their works for it is still left up to allah to decide isn't it? Will your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds?
Yes its left up to Allah swt - so how do you know whos good deeds will outweigh whos bad deeds if Allah swt will decide? - Only Allah swt knows.
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Grace Seeker
08-16-2009, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

i'm lucky that i don't have vested interest in this matter [or at least not so much when i read it]. Professor Friedman's book is a "must read."
Well, I don't have any recently published books in this field, can you give me the name, publisher, and ISBN number for Friedman's book?
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YusufNoor
08-16-2009, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Well, I don't have any recently published books in this field, can you give me the name, publisher, and ISBN number for Friedman's book?

i posted this 1 page ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-Bibl.../dp/0060630353

if you have a half price books around, i get them there for about $7-8! just make sure it is 2nd edition, which is the one in the link.

:wa:
Reply

Follower
08-18-2009, 05:28 PM
"Yes its left up to Allah swt - so how do you know whos good deeds will outweigh whos bad deeds if Allah swt will decide? - Only Allah swt knows."

There is the huge difference between my concept of GOD and your concept of Allah-

I have been promised by GOD that if I repent sincerely I will be in heaven after death with GOD. Jesus has paid the debt for my bad deeds [the ones I know about and the ones I have done unintentonally].

I know that I do not deserve such a beautiful gift from GOD but because He loves me He sacrificed His Son for me.
Reply

Follower
08-18-2009, 06:22 PM
Does the opinion that you think you know or don't know who wrote the Holy Bible change the fact that it was inspired and saved by GOD? It is the scripture that GOD wanted saved and did save for all times.

I would think that a muslim would need just the say so of the Quran in confirming the Torah and Gospel.

What does it say about the Quran when it confirms the authorlessTorah and Gospel?
Reply

جوري
08-18-2009, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
i posted this 1 page ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-Bibl.../dp/0060630353

if you have a half price books around, i get them there for about $7-8! just make sure it is 2nd edition, which is the one in the link.

:wa:

:sl:
Jazaka Allah khyran

I just put it on my shopping carte along with three other books by Dr. Lawrence Brown..

:w:
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Follower
08-18-2009, 06:32 PM
YusufNoor you asked a while back -"when did the Church decide that the "current list of canonical books" is the Bible"?

"and is that your Church?"


Please don't forget that the list of New Testament Books in the canon always included Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. If there is a difference of opinion as to which church and which books are included again Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are always included.

My church- Lutheran.
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MSalman
08-18-2009, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
I have been promised by GOD that if I repent sincerely I will be in heaven after death with GOD.
but do you know that your repentance was accepted?

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Does the opinion that you think you know or don't know who wrote the Holy Bible change the fact that it was inspired and saved by GOD?
how do know that those unknown authors were really inspired by God? How do we know that they did not make up things and said this is from God? Did you get a revelation from holy ghost? It is your belief that it was saved by God but it has very little value in the real world.
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Follower
08-18-2009, 09:47 PM
"but do you know that your repentance was accepted? "

If it is sincere then yes.

how do know that those unknown authors were really inspired by God? How do we know that they did not make up things and said this is from God?

I could ask the same things of the Quran-How do you know that Mohammad spoke form Allah?

Christians have witnesses, Disciples, followers -many heard His sermons and parables, early church fathers, Jesus quoted from the Old Testament and early followers of Jesus quoted Jesus.

The Holy Bible is the most valuable book on creating a personnal relationship with GOD.
Reply

MSalman
08-19-2009, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
If it is sincere then yes.
but you do not know whether what you perceive to be sincere really falls under the criteria of what God is expecting. Do you?

Because even we believe that if we sincerely repent then Allah will forgive our past sins and even turn them into good deeds for us. However, we do not know if our 'sincere' repentance is really accepted. We can only hope that it is accepted, insha'Allah.

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
I could ask the same things of the Quran-How do you know that Mohammad spoke form Allah?
it involves faith in addition to logical evidence. Our situation is completely different than yours: He was a man who was known for honesty and good character even among his enemies. We know who was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) unlike you who do not even have any bio. on these authors. Well, they would not be unknown if we had some bio. about them, wouldn't they be?

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
Christians have witnesses, Disciples, followers -many heard His sermons and parables, early church fathers, Jesus quoted from the Old Testament and early followers of Jesus quoted Jesus.
this does not strengthen your position: I am talking about the period when the books of NT were written. The earliest book of NT was written after 50 some years of Jesus' (peace be upon him) ascension and some of these books were written by unknown people. When you know nothing about these unknown people, how can you then claim that you got most perfect and authentic book in terms of preservation!? All you got is blind faith and it is fine as long as you do not claim that you got some sort of evidence for your blind faith.

format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
The Holy Bible is the most valuable book on creating a personnal relationship with GOD.
that is what you believe; so, whatever flows your boat
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-19-2009, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
The earliest book of NT was written after 50 some years of Jesus' (peace be upon him) ascension and some of these books were written by unknown people.
You really need to find better scholarship. The only book that is of unknown authorship is the Letter to the Hebrews.

To state that the earliest books of the NT was written some 50 years after Jesus, would mean that it was 80AD or later. Most Biblical scholarship will give dates for much earlier dates for all but a few books of the NT.

Even though there is not universal agreement, if you check out just a few of these timelines, Chronology of the New Testament

I think you will see that your dating would be heavily disputed and not just by traditionalists, but by serious scholars as well. For more discussion on this, you can read my reply to a similar question in another thread: post #1874, Questions About Christians
Reply

Azy
08-20-2009, 10:25 AM
2:113 - Furthermore, the Jews assert, "The Christians have no valid ground for their beliefs," while the Christians assert, "The Jews have no valid ground for their beliefs" - and both quote the divine writ!
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Grace Seeker
08-20-2009, 01:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
2:113 - Furthermore, the Jews assert, "The Christians have no valid ground for their beliefs," while the Christians assert, "The Jews have no valid ground for their beliefs" - and both quote the divine writ!
IS that be an accurate quote from the Qur'an? For the facts as I klnow them is that regardless of what Jews might say about Christians, and though we Christians hold that the Jews have missed properly identify the Messiah when he was among them (and continue to ignore his coming to this day), that Christians do NOT says that the Jews have no valid grounds for their beliefs. In fact, we think that they do indeed have very valid grounds for their beliefs. And we pray they would follow all of the grounds that they have available to them.

Given what the facts really are with respect to the Christian view of Jewish beliefs, surely this cannot be an accurate quote from the Qur'an for it would be an example of an inaccuracy within the Qur'an. On the eve of Ramadan I will not accuse the Qur'an of this, and trust that it was merely the interpretation rendered which was in error.
Reply

Azy
08-20-2009, 01:14 PM
It is an accurate quote but I posted it with a different reason in mind from the one you proposed.
Reply

GreyKode
08-20-2009, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
IS that be an accurate quote from the Qur'an? For the facts as I klnow them is that regardless of what Jews might say about Christians, and though we Christians hold that the Jews have missed properly identify the Messiah when he was among them (and continue to ignore his coming to this day), that Christians do NOT says that the Jews have no valid grounds for their beliefs. In fact, we think that they do indeed have very valid grounds for their beliefs. And we pray they would follow all of the grounds that they have available to them.

Given what the facts really are with respect to the Christian view of Jewish beliefs, surely this cannot be an accurate quote from the Qur'an for it would be an example of an inaccuracy within the Qur'an. On the eve of Ramadan I will not accuse the Qur'an of this, and trust that it was merely the interpretation rendered which was in error.
It is a quote from the Qur'an and yes it is 100% accurate, this verse has a historical background in "asbab el nozool"(reasons for revelation), and it is authentic, so your opinion is of no value, this is plain historical facts.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-20-2009, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
YusufNoor you asked a while back -"when did the Church decide that the "current list of canonical books" is the Bible"?

answer?

"and is that your Church?"


Please don't forget that the list of New Testament Books in the canon always included Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. If there is a difference of opinion as to which church and which books are included again Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are always included.

that is generally a true statement, however, there IS mention earlier that of Iranaeus [which i had hoped to source, but time runs short] that mentions, iirc, the biographies of the apostles and NOT the Gospels, per se.

My church- Lutheran.
is is believed by MOST [although not Gene's preferred] Scholars that the writings of Paul are the oldest NT writings. does he [Paul]mention any of the 4 gospels by name?

i will also concede that THOSE 4 gospels are believed to be the oldest accounts of Christian writings[re: myths :omg:] about Jesus.

YusufNoor you asked a while back -"when did the Church decide that the "current list of canonical books" is the Bible"?
still unanswered

The Holy Bible is the most valuable book on creating a personnal relationship with GOD.
i disagree, there is only One True God, Who is discussed in the Qur'an. your book now [allegedly] discusses a trilogy of God, which is an idea of Plato.

You really need to find better scholarship. The only book that is of unknown authorship is the Letter to the Hebrews.

that's not a true statement, it should read "some Christians believe that The only book that is of unknown authorship is the Letter to the Hebrews. the 4 Gospels were written anonymously and the headings now used, "the Gospel according to" were added later. also, many scholars now dispute the majority of the authorship of the books of the NT

To state that the earliest books of the NT was written some 50 years after Jesus, would mean that it was 80AD or later. Most Biblical scholarship will give dates for much earlier dates for all but a few books of the NT.

Even though there is not universal agreement, if you check out just a few of these timelines, Chronology of the New Testament
that timeline is simply not agreed to by the majority of scholars, so not only is it not in "universal agreement, it is NOT even in "majority agreement!"

i'll quote Bart D Ehrman here:

No one knows for certain when Jesus died, but most scholars agree that it was sometime around 30 C.E. Most historians think that Mark was the first of our Gospels to be written, sometime between the mid 60s to early 70s. Matthew and Luke were probably produced some ten to fifteen years later, perhaps around 80 or 85. John was written perhaps ten years after that, in 90 or 95. These are necessarily rough estimates, but almost all scholars agree within a few years.


:wa:
Reply

YusufNoor
08-20-2009, 01:32 PM
IS that be an accurate quote from the Qur'an? For the facts as I klnow them is that regardless of what Jews might say about Christians, and though we Christians hold that the Jews have missed properly identify the Messiah when he was among them (and continue to ignore his coming to this day), that Christians do NOT says that the Jews have no valid grounds for their beliefs. In fact, we think that they do indeed have very valid grounds for their beliefs. And we pray they would follow all of the grounds that they have available to them.

see below!

Given what the facts really are with respect to the Christian view of Jewish beliefs, surely this cannot be an accurate quote from the Qur'an for it would be an example of an inaccuracy within the Qur'an. On the eve of Ramadan I will not accuse the Qur'an of this, and trust that it was merely the interpretation rendered which was in error.


format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
as i appended the thought, antisemitism is a result of Paul. as Paul struggle to deal with the "vision" he had when he fell of his horse and tried to make sense of the [apparent] crucifixion in his writings. the next group has to deal with his letters! i see no other destination once he pens[in Galations 5]:

2 Behold I, (D)Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to (H)keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


while this is directed at the Gauls, consider it's impact on the NEXT generation of of Jews, do you circumcise them? if you do, they are now, "severed from Christ!?" and if ANY observance of the Law "severs you from Christ" this pretty much mandates a separation of the Jews and the Christians. [despite the fact the other NT writers hint at keeping the law, especially Peter in Acts 10.] thus, let's call it the mustard seed, eventually leads to, Barnabas 4:6-8

6 ...And yet again, I am asking you this as one who is from among you and who loves each and every one of you more than my own soul: watch yourselves now and do not become like some people by piling up your sins, saying that they covenant is both theirs and ours.
7 For it is ours. but they permanently post it, in this way, when Moses had just received it[!] For the Scripture says, "Moses was on the mountain fasting for forty days and forty nights, and he received the covenant from the Lord, stone tablets written with the finger of the Lord's own hand."
But when they turned back to idols they lost it. For the Lord says this: Moses, Moses, go down quickly, because your people. whom you lead from the land of Egypt, has broken the law . Moses understood this and cast the two tablets from his hands. And their covenant was smashed - [that the covenant of his beloved, Jesus, might be sealed in our hearts, in the hope brought by faith in him.]

which seem a blatant lie that casts dispersions of the Jewish faith of the last millennium. [not that the Jews/Hebrew/Israelites didn't do enough of that themselves] but if there were no longer any Covenant with the Hebrews/Jews, then there is no expectation of the Messiah either!

to show Barnabas' error:

The Covenant Renewed Exodus 34

10Then God said, "Behold, I am going to make a covenant Before all your people I will perform miracles which have not been produced in all the earth nor among any of the nations; and all the people among whom you live will see the working of the LORD, for it is a fearful thing that I am going to perform with you.

11"Be sure to observe what I am commanding you this day: behold, I am going to drive out the Amorite before you, and the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite.
12"Watch yourself that you make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, or it will become a snare in your midst.
13"But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim
14--for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God--
15otherwise you might make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land and they would play the harlot with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone might invite you to eat of his sacrifice,
16and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods.
17"You shall make for yourself no molten gods.
18"You shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread For seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the )month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt.
19")The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep.
20"You shall redeem with a lamb the first offspring from a donkey; and if you do not redeem it, then you shall break its neck You shall redeem all the firstborn of your sons None shall appear before Me empty-handed.
21"You shall work six days, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during plowing time and harvest you shall rest.
22"You shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.
23"Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
24"For I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your borders, and no man shall covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD your God.
25"You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread, nor is the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover to be left over until morning.
26"You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. "You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk."
27Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

28So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

so Barnabas loves the them so much that he distorts the truth, not only about the Hebrews/Jews, BUT about GOD as well!

this plays a part in History as the Christians try to convince the Pagans that the Old Testament belongs to them and NOT the Jews and that is THEM who should be granted excuse from sacrificing to the Emperor. and further more, according to Barnabas, the Jews are some kind of "friggin" morons and degenerates for not realizing that they have been so clueless for the last 1300 years! [that's rather simplified, but as i've been typing for over an hour, i'll just end...]

i think that even Bugs Bunny treated Elmer Fudd better than that.

i'm just saying...
i missed this one! is the Epistle of Barnabas still considered part of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers?

one of the OLDEST Greek Manuscripts available, the Codex Sinaiticus DOES contain Barnabas!

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/ma...t.aspx?book=60

glad to have helped clear this up!

:wa:
Reply

Azy
08-20-2009, 02:14 PM
I'm interested to know why the Quran refers to the books of the Jews and Christians as 'divine writ'.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-21-2009, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
IS that be an accurate quote from the Qur'an? For the facts as I klnow them is that regardless of what Jews might say about Christians, and though we Christians hold that the Jews have missed properly identify the Messiah when he was among them (and continue to ignore his coming to this day), that Christians do NOT says that the Jews have no valid grounds for their beliefs. In fact, we think that they do indeed have very valid grounds for their beliefs. And we pray they would follow all of the grounds that they have available to them.

Given what the facts really are with respect to the Christian view of Jewish beliefs, surely this cannot be an accurate quote from the Qur'an for it would be an example of an inaccuracy within the Qur'an. On the eve of Ramadan I will not accuse the Qur'an of this, and trust that it was merely the interpretation rendered which was in error.
having found a few online documents from Early Christianity, let's review the statement made above in lieu of what is found in "the Epistle of Barnanbas" and Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, shall we?

let's take another look at Barnabas, beginning in Chapter 9:

9:1 Furthermore He saith concerning the ears, how that it is our heart which He circumcised.
9:2 The Lord saith in the prophet;
9:3 With the hearings of the ears they listened unto Me.
9:4 And again He saith;
9:5 They that are afar off shall hear with their ears, and shall perceive what I have done.
9:6 And;
9:7 Be ye circumcised in your hearts, saith the Lord.
9:8 And again He saith;
9:9 Hear, O Israel, for thus saith the Lord thy God.
9:10 Who is he that desireth to live for ever, let him hear with his ears the voice of My servant.
9:11 And again He saith;
9:12 Hear, O heaven, and give ear, O earth, for the Lord hath spoken these things for a testimony.
9:13 And again He saith;
9:14 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of this people.
9:15 And again He saith;
9:16 Hear, O my children, the voice of one crying in the wilderness.
9:17 Therefore He circumcised our ears, that bearing the word we might believe.
9:18 But moreover the circumcision, in which they have confidence, is abolished;
9:19 for He hath said that a circumcision not of the flesh should be practised.
9:20 But they transgressed, for an evil angel taught them cleverness.
9:21 He saith unto them;
9:22 Thus saith the Lord your God (so I find the commandment);
9:23 sow not upon thorns, be ye circumcised to your Lord.
9:24 And what saith He?
9:25 Be ye circumcised in the hardness of your heart, and then ye will not harden your neck.
9:26 Take this again;
9:27 Behold, saith the Lord, all the Gentiles are uncircumcised in their foreskin, but this people is uncircumcised in their hearts.

9:28 But thou wilt say;
9:29 In truth the people hath been circumcised for a seal.
9:30 Nay, but so likewise is every Syrian and Arabian and all the priests of the idols.
9:31 Do all those then too belong to their covenant?
9:32 Moreover the Egyptians also are included among the circumcised.
9:33 Learn therefore, children of love, concerning all things abundantly, that Abraham, who first appointed circumcision, looked forward in the spirit unto Jesus,
9:34 when he circumcised having received the ordinances of three letters.
9:35 For the scripture saith;
9:36 And Abraham circumcised of his household eighteen males and three hundred What then was the knowledge given unto him?
9:37 Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first, and then after an interval three hundred in the eighteen I stands for ten, H for eight.
9:38 Here thou hast Jesus (------).
9:39 And because the cross in the T was to have grace, He saith also three hundred.
9:40 So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross.
9:41 He who placed within us the innate gift of His covenant knoweth ;
9:42 no man hath ever learnt from me a more genuine word ;
9:43 but I know that ye are worthy.

so they weren't literally supposed to circumcise themselves!? :hmm:

and as far as the kosher food laws go:

10:1 But forasmuch as Moses said ;
10:2 Ye shall not eat swine nor eagle nor falcon nor crow nor any fish which hath no scale upon it, he received in his understanding three ordinances.
10:3 Yea and further He saith unto them in Deuteronomy ;
10:4 And I will lay as a covenant upon this people My ordinances.
10:5 So then it is not a commandment of God that they should not bite with their teeth, but Moses spake it in spirit.

10:6 Accordingly he mentioned the swine with this intent.
10:7 Thou shalt not cleave, saith he, to such men who are like unto swine;
10:8 that is, when they are in luxury they forget the Lord, but when they are in want they recognize the Lord, just as the swine when it eateth knoweth not his lord, but when it is hungry it crieth out,
10:9 and when it has received food again it is silent.
10:10 Neither shalt thou eat eagle nor falcon nor kite nor crow.
10:11 Thou shalt not, He saith, cleave unto, or be likened to such men who know not how to provide food for themselves by toil and sweat, but in their lawlessness seize what belongeth to others,
10:12 and as if they were walking in guilelessness watch and search about for some one to rob in their rapacity,
10:13 just as these birds alone do not provide food for themselves, but sit idle and seek how they may eat the meat that belongeth to others, being pestilent in their evil-doings.
10:14 And thou shalt not eat, saith He, lamprey nor polypus nor cuttle fish.
10:15 Thou shalt not, He meaneth, become like unto such men, who are desperately wicked, and are already condemned to death, just as these fishes alone are accursed and swim in the depths,
10:16 not swimming on the surface like the rest, but dwell on the ground beneath the deep sea.
10:17 Moreover thou shalt not eat the hare.
10:18 Why so?
10:19 Thou shalt not be found a corrupter of boys, nor shalt thou become like such persons;
10:20 for the hare gaineth one passage in the body every year;
10:21 for according to the number of years it lives it has just so many orifices.
10:22 Again, neither shalt thou eat the hyena ;
10:23 thou shalt not, saith He, become an adulterer or a fornicator, neither shalt thou resemble such persons.
10:24 Why so?
10:25 Because this animal changeth its nature year by year, and becometh at one time male and at another female.
10:26 Moreover He hath hated the weasel also and with good reason.
10:27 Thou shalt not, saith He, become such as those men of whom we hear as working iniquity with their mouth for uncleanness, neither shalt thou cleave unto impure women who work iniquity with their mouth.
10:28 For this animal conceiveth with its mouth.
10:29 Concerning meats then Moses received three decrees to this effect and uttered them in a spiritual sense;
10:30 but they accepted them according to the lust of the flesh, as though they referred to eating.
10:31 And David also receiveth knowledge of the same three decrees, and saith Blessed is the man who hath not gone in the counsel of the ungodly-even as the fishes go in darkness into the depths;
10:32 and hath not stood in the path of sinners-just as they who pretend to fear the Lord sin like swine;
10:33 and hath not sat on the seat of the destroyersas the birds that are seated for prey.
10:34 Ye have now the complete lesson concerning eating.
10:35 Again Moses saith;
10:36 Ye shall eat everything that divideth the hoof and cheweth the cud.
10:37 What meaneth he?
10:38 He that receiveth the food knoweth Him that giveth him the food, and being refreshed appeareth to rejoice in him.
10:39 Well said he, having regard to the commandment.
10:40 What then meaneth he?
10:41 Cleave unto those that fear the Lord, with those who meditate in their heart on the distinction of the word which they have received, with those who tell of the ordinances of the Lord and keep them,
10:42 with those who know that meditation is a work of gladness and who chew the cud of the word of the Lord.
10:43 But why that which divided the hoof?
10:44 Because the righteous man both walketh in this world, and at the same time looketh for the holy world to come.
10:45 Ye see how wise a lawgiver Moses was.
10:46 But whence should they perceive or understand these things?
10:47 Howbeit we having justly perceived the commandments tell them as the Lord willed.
10:48 `To this end He circumcised our ears and hearts, that we might understand these things.

so THOSE weren't meant to be taken literally either??

and going back to the 4th Chapter:

4:1 It behoves us therefore to investigate deeply concerning the present, and to search out the things which have power to save us.
4:2 Let us therefore flee altogether from all the works of lawlessness, lest the works of lawlessness overpower us;
4:3 and let us loathe the error of the present time, that we may be loved for that which is to come.
4:4 Let us give no relaxation to our soul that it should have liberty to consort with sinners and wicked men, lest haply we be made like unto them.
4:5 The last offence is at hand, concerning which the scripture speaketh, as Enoch saith.
4:6 For to this end the Master hath cut the seasons and the days short, that His beloved might hasten and come to His inheritance.
4:7 And the prophet also speaketh on this wise;
4:8 Ten reigns shall reign upon the earth, and after them shall arise a little king, who shall bring low three of the kings under one.
4:9 In like manner Daniel speaketh concerning the same;
4:10 And I saw the fourth beast to be wicked and strong and more intractable than all the beasts of the earth,
4:11 and how there arose from him ten horns, and from these a little horn an excrescence, and how that it abased under one three of the great horns.
4:12 Ye ought therefore to understand.
4:13 Moreover I ask you this one thing besides, as being one of yourselves and loving you all in particular more than my own soul, to give heed to yourselves now,
4:14 and not to liken yourselves to certain persons who pile up sin upon sin, saying that our covenant remains to them also.
4:15 Ours it is;
4:16 but they lost it in this way for ever, when Moses had just received it.
4:17 For the scripture saith;
4:18 And Moses was in the mountain fasting forty days and forty nights, and he received the covenant from the Lord, even tables of stone written with the finger of the hand of the Lord.
4:19 But they lost it by turning unto idols.

4:20 For thus saith the Lord;
4:21 Moses, Moses, come down quickly ;
4:22 for thy people whom thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt hath done unlawfully.
4:23 And Moses understood, and threw the two tables from his hands;
4:24 and their covenant was broken in pieces, that the covenant of the beloved Jesus might be sealed unto our hearts in the hope which springeth from faith in Him.
4:25 But though I would fain write many things, not as a teacher, but as becometh one who loveth you not to fall short of that which we possess, I was anxious to write to you, being your devoted slave.
4:26 Wherefore let us take heed in these last days.
4:27 For the whole time of our faith shall profit us nothing, unless we now, in the season of lawlessness and in the offences that shall be, as becometh sons of God, offer resistance, that the Black One may not effect an entrance.
4:28 Let us flee from all vanity, let us entirely hate the works of the evil way.
4:29 Do not entering in privily stand apart by yourselves, as if ye were already justified, but assemble yourselves together and consult concerning the common welfare.
4:30 For the scripture saith;
4:31 Woe unto them that are wise for themselves, and understanding in their own sight.
4:32 Let us become spiritual, let us become a temple perfect unto God.
4:33 As far as in us lies, let us exercise ourselves in the fear of God, [and] let us strive to keep His commandments, that we may rejoice in His ordinances.
4:34 The Lord judgeth the world without respect of persons;
4:35 each man shall receive according to his deeds.
4:36 If he be good, his righteousness shall go before him in the way;
4:37 if he be evil, the recompense of his evil-doing is before him;
4:38 lest perchance, if we relax as men that are called, we should slumber over our sins, and the prince of evil receive power against us and thrust us out from the kingdom of the Lord.
4:39 Moreover understand this also, my brothers.
4:40 When ye see that after so many signs and wonders wrought in Israel, even then they were abandoned, let us give heed, lest haply we be found, as the scripture saith, many called but few chosen.


the OT Covenant is NOT with the Jews, it is with the Christians! :heated:

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studi...c/barnabus.htm

and turning to Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 16 & 18:

CHAPTER XVI -- CIRCUMCISION GIVEN AS A SIGN, THAT THE JEWS MIGHT BE DRIVEN AWAY FOR THEIR EVIL DEEDS DONE TO CHRIST AND THE CHRISTIANS.

"And God himself proclaimed by Moses, speaking thus: 'And circumcise the hardness of your hearts, and no longer stiffen the neck. For the Lord your God is both Lord of lords, and a great, mighty, and terrible God, who regardeth not persons, and taketh not rewards.' And in Leviticus: 'Because they have transgressed against Me, and despised Me, and because they have walked contrary to Me, I also walked contrary to them, and I shall cut them off in the land of their enemies. Then shall their uncircumcised heart be turned.' For the circumcision according to the flesh, which is from Abraham, was given for a sign; that you may be separated from other nations, and from us; and that you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer; and that your land may be desolate, and your cities burned with fire; and that strangers may eat your fruit in your presence, and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem.' For you are not recognised among the rest of men by any other mark than your fleshly circumcision. For none of you, I suppose, will venture to say that God neither did nor does foresee the events, which are future, nor fore-ordained his deserts for each one. Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him--God the Almighty and Maker of all things--cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ. For you have not the power to lay hands upon us, on account of those who now have the mastery. But as often as you could, you did so. Wherefore God, by Isaiah, calls to you, saying, 'Behold how the righteous man perished, and no one regards it. For the righteous man is taken away from before iniquity. His grave shall be in peace, he is taken away from the midst. Draw near hither, ye lawless children, seed of the adulterers, and children of the *****. Against whom have you sported yourselves, and against whom have you opened the mouth, and against whom have you loosened the tongue?'

and so there was no covenant involved with Circumcision, but a sign of punishment!? :exhausted

CHAPTER XVII -- THE JEWS SENT PERSONS THROUGH THE WHOLE EARTH TO SPREAD CALUMNIES ON CHRISTIANS.

"For other nations have not inflicted on us and on Christ this wrong to such an extent as you have, who in very deed are the authors of the wicked prejudice against the Just One, and us who hold by Him. For after that you had crucified Him, the only blameless and righteous Man,-- through whose swipes those who approach the Father by Him are healed,--when you knew that He had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven, as the prophets foretold He would, you not only did not repent of the wickedness which you had committed, but at that time you selected and sent out from Jerusalem chosen men through all the land to tell that the godless heresy of the Christians had sprung up, and to publish those things which all they who knew us not speak against us. So that you are the cause not only of your own unrighteousness, but in fact of that of all other men. And Isaiah cries justly: 'By reason of you, My name is blasphemed among the Gentiles.' And: 'Woe unto their soul! because they have devised an evil device against themselves, saying, Let us bind the righteous, for he is distasteful to us. Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked evil shall be rendered to him according to the works of his hands.' And again, in other words: 'Woe unto them that draw their iniquity as with a long cord, and their transgressions as with the harness of a heifer's yoke: who say, Let his speed come near; and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel come, that we may know it. Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put light for darkness, and darkness for light; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!' Accordingly, you displayed great zeal in publishing throughout all the land bitter and dark and unjust things against the only blameless and righteous Light sent by God.

For He appeared distasteful to you when He cried among you, 'It is written, My house is the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves!' He overthrew also the tables of the money-changers in the temple, and exclaimed, 'Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye pay tithe of mint and rue, but do not observe the love of God and justice. Ye whited sepulchres! appearing beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones.' And to the Scribes, 'Woe unto you, Scribes! for ye have the keys, and ye do not enter in yourselves, and them that are entering in ye hinder; ye blind guides!'

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...guetrypho.html

and i'll just leave that for folks to read....

:wa:
Reply

Ramisa
08-21-2009, 05:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I'm interested to know why the Quran refers to the books of the Jews and Christians as 'divine writ'.
:sl:

Write:? Please elaborate.
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 04:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ibn-Ahmed Herz
In this article I will be going through reasons why I feel the bible is not reliable. I encourage Christians to read through and respond to my post with why they feel the evidence is in their favor.
Ultimately arguments against the Bible's integrity are moot because the Quran contradicts even that which is certain, such as the fact that Jesus was crucified.
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Ultimately arguments against the Bible's integrity are moot because the Quran contradicts even that which is certain, such as the fact that Jesus was crucified.

It is moot because the bible has no integrity even against its own self..

Mark 15:21, Matthew 27:32, Luke 23:26 - Jesus gets help from Simon of Cyrene
John 19:17 - Jesus carries his own cross the whole way Inscription on Jesus’ Cross:


When crucified, Jesus’ cross had an inscription — but what did it say?

Mark 15:26 - The inscription: “The King of the Jews.”
Matthew 27:37 - The inscription: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
Luke 23:38 - The inscription: “This is the King of the Jews.”
John 19:19 - The inscription: “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” Jesus and the Thieves:


Some gospels say Jesus was crucified with two thieves, though the Romans never crucified thieves.

Mark - The two thieves are mentioned, but there is no conversation
Matthew 27:44 - The two thieves taunt Jesus
Luke 23:39-42 - One thief taunts Jesus and is criticized by the other. Jesus promises the 2nd thief that they would be in Paradise that day, though John and Acts say he did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection
John - The two men aren’t described as thieves Does Jesus Drink Wine or Vinegar?:


Jesus is given something to drink while he is on the cross, but what?

Mark 15:23 - Jesus is given wine mixed with myrrh, but he doesn’t drink
Matthew 27:48, Luke 23:36 - Jesus is given vinegar, but he doesn’t drink
John 19:29-30 - Jesus is given vinegar and he drinks Jesus and the Centurion:


Romans supposedly witnessed Jesus’ crucifixion, but what did they think?

Mark 15:39 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was the son of God!”
Matthew 27:54 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this was the son of God.”
Luke 23:47 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was innocent.”
John - No centurions say anything Women Watch the Curcifixion:


The gospels describe several woman as having followed Jesus around, but what did they do when Jesus was crucified?

Mark 15:40, Matthew 27:55, Luke 23:49 - Several women watch Jesus from afar
John 19:25-26 - Several woman are close enough that Jesus could talk to his mother, contrary to Roman practices When Was Jesus Crucified?:


The crucifixion of Jesus is the central event of the Passion narrative, but the narratives don’t agree on when the crucifixion occurred.

Mark 15:25 - Jesus was crucified on the “third hour.”
John 19:14-15 - Jesus was crucified on the “sixth hour.”
Matthew, Luke - It’s not stated when the crucifixion starts, but the “sixth hour” occurs during the curcifixion Jesus’ Last Words:


Jesus’ last words before dying are important, but no one seems to have written then down.

Mark 15:34-37, Matthew 27:46-50 - Jesus says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (but they use different Greek words for “God” — Matthew uses “Eli” and Mark uses “Eloi”)
Luke 23:46 - Jesus says: “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
John 19:30 - Jesus says: “It is finished.” Earthquake After the Resurrection:


Was there an earthquake when Jesus died?

Matthew 27:51-53 - At the moment Jesus dies, a massive earth quake strikes and opens tombs where dead people rise again
Mark, Luke, John - No earthquake is mentioned. No earthquake and no massive influx of formerly dead people is mentioned in any historical records, which is strange given how monumental such an event would be.

_________________________

There is no object of comparison between the Quran and the bible.. one is the ramblings of confused men whose identity is lost to us, and is historically inaccurate and nonsensical in content. While the Quran is the unerring divine word of God!

all the best
Reply

YusufNoor
09-28-2009, 05:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Ultimately arguments against the Bible's integrity are moot because the Quran contradicts even that which is certain, such as the fact that Jesus was crucified.
what is your evidence for this "fact?"

name 1 single contemporaneous witness to this "fact."

please produce 1 source outside of Christianity OR Josephus from the 1st Century that confirms this so called fact.

please describe in detail the Roman method of crucifixion. THEN tell us if this fits the Gospel stories about Jesus' alleged crucifixion. then name 1 other person who the Romans only "half-crucified."
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 05:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
what is your evidence for this "fact?"
Something tells me no amount of evidence would convince you. Perhaps a more pertinent question would be, if you had not been Muslim would you still believe Jesus wasn't crucified?

And just as an aside, the opinion some Muslims hold that Judas took the place of Christ on the cross, where does that come from? Hadith?
Reply

Ramadhan
09-28-2009, 06:13 AM
Sojourn, in the other thread you spew many lies and "facts" and when I asked for evidence, you kept quiet.
Turn out that is your m.o.
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-30-2009, 03:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
having found a few online documents from Early Christianity, let's review the statement made above in lieu of what is found in "the Epistle of Barnanbas" and Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, shall we?
The Epistle of Barnabas from which you quote is a second century document, and highly unlikely to have been penned by the Barnabas who accompanied Paul in his travels. However, I will grant that for a time this letter was considered on par by some (not all) with those writings that make up the canon of the NT today. As to its or Justin Martyr's comments or many other Christians that have spoken against the Jews, such is evidence that at least some (perhaps even a majority of) Christians deem that apart from Christ the Jew cannot be saved. This does not mean that we think their scripture not valid. And the Hebrew Bible (which we Christians call the OT) is the grounds for their belief. It is valid. It continues to be used and accepted by Christians as a part of our own canon and as such is most definitely understood by Christians (even those you named) as valid grounds for belief. The problem is not with the ground of Jewish belief (my goodness, the foundation for much of the teaching of the NT is found in the OT, you cannot fully understand the second apart from the first), but rather the problem is with the actual conclusions that the Jews draw with regard to their beliefs.
Reply

Sojourn
09-30-2009, 04:17 AM
[QUOTE=YusufNoor;1205706]
i'll quote Bart D Ehrman here:
[QUOTE]

What does the good doctor say about Jesus' crucifixion?
Reply

Eric H
09-30-2009, 07:27 AM
Greetings and peace be with you naidamar;
and when I asked for evidence, you kept quiet.
Any evidence that is two thousand years old, is open to questions and interpretation. Proof of God rests on Holy scriptures, which people claim is written by man.

Sadly there is not total proof for the existence of God, if there were then the chances are we would all see this proof in the same way, and follow one religion.

We believe, and we have faith, we trust and thank God for all that he does for us, without total proof.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship

Eric












1226048]Sojourn, in the other thread you spew many lies and "facts" Turn out that is your m.o.[/QUOTE]
Reply

Ramadhan
09-30-2009, 09:12 AM
I did not ask for proof of existence of god from sojourn.

In different posts and threads, sojourn would make strong claims but when discussions went deeper and asked for evidence, he evaded and then started to make similar ones in other threads.


[QUOTE=Eric H;1227284]
Any evidence that is two thousand years old, is open to questions and interpretation. Proof of God rests on Holy scriptures, which people claim is written by man.

Sadly there is not total proof for the existence of God, if there were then the chances are we would all see this proof in the same way, and follow one religion.

We believe, and we have faith, we trust and thank God for all that he does for us, without total proof.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship

Eric
Reply

YusufNoor
09-30-2009, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The Epistle of Barnabas from which you quote is a second century document, and highly unlikely to have been penned by the Barnabas who accompanied Paul in his travels. However, I will grant that for a time this letter was considered on par by some (not all) with those writings that make up the canon of the NT today. As to its or Justin Martyr's comments or many other Christians that have spoken against the Jews, such is evidence that at least some (perhaps even a majority of) Christians deem that apart from Christ the Jew cannot be saved. This does not mean that we think their scripture not valid. And the Hebrew Bible (which we Christians call the OT) is the grounds for their belief. It is valid. It continues to be used and accepted by Christians as a part of our own canon and as such is most definitely understood by Christians (even those you named) as valid grounds for belief. The problem is not with the ground of Jewish belief (my goodness, the foundation for much of the teaching of the NT is found in the OT, you cannot fully understand the second apart from the first), but rather the problem is with the actual conclusions that the Jews draw with regard to their beliefs.
yes, but if you look at what was "accepted" as inspired by "Barnabas" it begs the conclusion that then there no "valid" covenant with Joshua, David, Solomon, Samuel [Saul for that matter], Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Ezra, et al. seems rather infantile, and really leaves with VERY little OT for you to understand ANYTHING in the NT. for if there was no covenant, there was no communion with God and all those books are derived from someones imagination. and if all those books spurious, then no valid "prophecies" exists for which you draw your connections with Jesus to. pretty self defeating, don't you think? [and of course this DOES invalidate the Tanakh, does it not?]

as for Justin, his comments make a mockery out of Peter's dream, do they not?

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.
is Justin not then claiming that Jesus gave the "keys to the kingdom of Heaven to some kind of idiot?" or was the man you claim was God unable to point Peter in the proper direction? did Justin have more knowledge than Jesus? is he wiser than God?

my conclusion is that neither of these men were in contact with anyone from the original Jerusalem Church. and if we can dismiss Justin, we can dismiss everyone that follows him.
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-30-2009, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
yes, but if you look at what was "accepted" as inspired by "Barnabas" it begs the conclusion that then there no "valid" covenant with Joshua, David, Solomon, Samuel [Saul for that matter], Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Ezra, et al. seems rather infantile, and really leaves with VERY little OT for you to understand ANYTHING in the NT. for if there was no covenant, there was no communion with God and all those books are derived from someones imagination. and if all those books spurious, then no valid "prophecies" exists for which you draw your connections with Jesus to. pretty self defeating, don't you think? [and of course this DOES invalidate the Tanakh, does it not?]
I don't really follow the sense of your argument. I understand it; I just don't end up with the same conclusions you do.



Regarding Justin Martyr, he is a conundrum. I don't know as much about him as I wish I did. I know that some of his ideas are indeed germane in the development of the Church's christology -- a christology that continues to develop even after the last of the biblical texts are written. So, as with his Christology, his other views are neither scripture nor fully reflective of the church's views today. They are a part of the story, but not the whole of it. Influential, YES. But not declaratory, for the Church does not follow Justin it follows Christ as revealed in scripture.
Reply

YusufNoor
10-01-2009, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Something tells me no amount of evidence would convince you.

we CAN be sure that NO EVIDENCE won't convince me!

Perhaps a more pertinent question would be, if you had not been Muslim would you still believe Jesus wasn't crucified?

why? you don't want to provide your "evidence" to Muslims? that doesn't make any sense.

And just as an aside, the opinion some Muslims hold that Judas took the place of Christ on the cross, where does that come from? Hadith?
there are no authentic Hadeeth as to exactly what happened, but some strange comments in the "Gospels" appear to support an "image swap." is that what happened, Allahu Alum.

IF you take a little time to research how Rome crucified rebels, the Gospel writings seem like something make believe.

What does the good doctor say about Jesus' crucifixion?
it is his opinion that Christ was killed. that doesn't mean it is MY opinion. there is MUCH that i disagree with him about, but there's no need for me to post that stuff here. i''d rather take it up with him.

I don't really follow the sense of your argument. I understand it; I just don't end up with the same conclusions you do.
how do you "not follow it" and understand it at the same time?

Regarding Justin Martyr, he is a conundrum
so he's "out" or "in"? picking and choosing or just cherry picking?
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-01-2009, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
so he's "out" or "in"? picking and choosing or just cherry picking?

When it comes to Justin Martyr I'm definitely a cherry picker.
Reply

Sojourn
10-01-2009, 03:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
there are no authentic Hadeeth as to exactly what happened, but some strange comments in the "Gospels" appear to support an "image swap." is that what happened, Allahu Alum.
A man being crucified is not strange, an "image swap" is strange however. The Gospels I know of record Jesus propheseying His own death, being Crucified, and then three days later resurrecting. Perhaps you have the Gnostic "gospels" in mind?

IF you take a little time to research how Rome crucified rebels, the Gospel writings seem like something make believe.
And we would what? Come to a conclusion that Jesus was not crucified? That the Romans put up Judas instead? An "image swap"? Sorry akhi, but the story you're pushing sounds more like make believe.

it is his opinion that Christ was killed. that doesn't mean it is MY opinion. there is MUCH that i disagree with him about, but there's no need for me to post that stuff here. i''d rather take it up with him.
Isn't it interesting that a man who doesn't believe the Bible is inspired, and that even portions are altered, still recognizes the historicity of Jesus' Crucifixion? You love to quote him against the the Bible, but in the end he's against the Qur'an.
Reply

YusufNoor
10-01-2009, 01:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
A man being crucified is not strange, an "image swap" is strange however. The Gospels I know of record Jesus propheseying His own death, being Crucified, and then three days later resurrecting. Perhaps you have the Gnostic "gospels" in mind?

actually, you believe that Jesus "rose" after 2 days, thus nullifying his own "3 days and 3 nights prophecy!"

And we would what? Come to a conclusion that Jesus was not crucified? That the Romans put up Judas instead? An "image swap"? Sorry akhi, but the story you're pushing sounds more like make believe.

i NEVER said Jesus was swapped with Judah. THAT is what you say. you seem to be having your own dialogue! [but see below]

Isn't it interesting that a man who doesn't believe the Bible is inspired, and that even portions are altered, still recognizes the historicity of Jesus' Crucifixion? You love to quote him against the the Bible, but in the end he's against the Qur'an.

Ehrman started a Christian, so i understand his faulty reasoning in that respect. but seeing as i an NOT an agnostic, i couldn't agree with him 100% now, could i?
here's our position on the death of Isa;

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
that's it, that's ALL of it. we TRUST in Allah. rather than have our own conjecture, we leave it at that unless Allah and His Messenger said otherwise.

the interesting thing about the "face swap" that you keep bringing up, THAT ideas found in your Gospel of John! let's have a looksy, eh:

11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher
).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord,[b] and that He had spoken these things to her.


so, "ACCORDING TO JOHN," Mary looked at Jesus and suppos[ed] him to be the gardener! i agree with you that it sounds incredulous! what other parts of your Bible do you also find incredulous?

:wa:
Reply

mkh4JC
10-01-2009, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor



11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher
).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord,[b] and that He had spoken these things to her.


so, "ACCORDING TO JOHN," Mary looked at Jesus and suppos[ed] him to be the gardener! i agree with you that it sounds incredulous! what other parts of your Bible do you also find incredulous?

:wa:
That was just an instance where God closed up Mary's understanding. God can do this, if he so chooses. It has happened to me once when I was in my sins and my dad told me about a time that it happened to him.

Back in 2002 I was trying to take advantage of someone sexually who were asleep and it was like the Lord closed up my understanding, so the result was that I couldn't enjoy it, so I didn't go all the way. While it was happening I didn't understand what it was and afterwards (even when I reflected on it) I didn't understand. When I later accepted Christ that summer I realized that God intervened on my behalf, that he protected me from myself.

When it happend to my dad at my old church a brother in Christ approached him and told him that there was a job opening at some place of employ and he--the brother--wanted my dad to apply. But my dad didn't reply to what he put forth. Then the brother came back and told my dad that it was too late to apply for the job, and my dad replied in shock because he realized that the Lord closed up his understanding, because he didn't want him working there. Turns out the job that he got was one owned by a Jewish man, whom he had the opportunity to witness to.

The same thing happened with other disciples who met Jesus on a road and when they had a conversation with him:

'And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

And how the cheif priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done.

Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early to the sepulchre;

And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

And certain of them which were with us went to the sephulcre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

Then he said unto them, Of fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

And they drew nigh unto the village, wither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

But they constrained him, saying Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. Luke 24: 15-31


So God just closed up their understanding in those cases as well.
Reply

Uthman
10-01-2009, 04:20 PM
Are we talking about the crucifixion of Jesus now?
Reply

جوري
10-02-2009, 03:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
here's our position on the death of Isa;



that's it, that's ALL of it. we TRUST in Allah. rather than have our own conjecture, we leave it at that unless Allah and His Messenger said otherwise.

the interesting thing about the "face swap" that you keep bringing up, THAT ideas found in your Gospel of John! let's have a looksy, eh:

11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”
She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher
).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord,[b] and that He had spoken these things to her.


so, "ACCORDING TO JOHN," Mary looked at Jesus and suppos[ed] him to be the gardener! i agree with you that it sounds incredulous! what other parts of your Bible do you also find incredulous?

:wa:
Love it when you kick A** with minimal effort, almost as much as I enjoy them wriggle for a coherent response and always coming up ;D..

Jazaka Allah khyran..
Nasarak Allah 3la al qawm alkfereen wa'la3anat Allah 3lyhoum..

ameen
Reply

Sojourn
10-02-2009, 04:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
actually, you believe that Jesus "rose" after 2 days, thus nullifying his own "3 days and 3 nights prophecy!"
It would help if you understand the phrase is a Jewish idiom.

i NEVER said Jesus was swapped with Judah. THAT is what you say. you seem to be having your own dialogue!
It's a popular belief among some Muslims that Judas was crucified in place of Christ, I dont know the source of it, do you?

Ehrman started a Christian, so i understand his faulty reasoning in that respect. but seeing as i an NOT an agnostic, i couldn't agree with him 100% now, could i?
The Crucifixion is the decisive issue between Islam and Chrisitanity. Despite your attack on the textual veracity of the Bible, there is no question the NT is accurate in saying Jesus suffered on the Cross, and that is precisely where you *need* the Bible to be wrong.

so, "ACCORDING TO JOHN," Mary looked at Jesus and suppos[ed] him to be the gardener! i agree with you that it sounds incredulous! what other parts of your Bible do you also find incredulous?
So you believe this suggests a "face swap" despite the text explicitly showing it's Jesus speaking to Mary the whole time?
Reply

Sojourn
10-02-2009, 04:58 AM
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so(like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Appeared to them so?
Reply

Ramadhan
10-02-2009, 11:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Love it when you kick A** with minimal effort, almost as much as I enjoy them wriggle for a coherent response and always coming up ;D..

Jazaka Allah khyran..
Nasarak Allah 3la al qawm alkfereen wa'la3anat Allah 3lyhoum..

ameen
I don't enjoy their INCOHERENT responses and unintelligible answers, it's painful, eg. the above answer about "closed understanding"??
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-02-2009, 12:08 PM
Everyone understands best that which they are already predisposed to understand. The "logic" of Islam is just as much a straining of credulity for me as is that which you object to within the Christian faith.
Reply

YusufNoor
10-02-2009, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
It would help if you understand the phrase is a Jewish idiom.

actually, "Matthew" was written in Greek. as for the sign of Jonah, he was ALIVE in the belly of the [fish] for 3 days and 3 nights

It's a popular belief among some Muslims that Judas was crucified in place of Christ, I dont know the source of it, do you?

nope, in fact when we don't know the answer to a question we are supposed to say, "I DON'T KNOW!"

The Crucifixion is the decisive issue between Islam and Chrisitanity. Despite your attack on the textual veracity of the Bible,

actually i merely quote what scholars of the NT and OT say. you may categorize them any way you wish.

there is no question the NT is accurate in saying Jesus suffered on the Cross, and that is precisely where you *need* the Bible to be wrong.

not really, because it is my belief that the ONLY parts of the NT that are correct are those in line with the Qur'an. using John 20 however, one could make the claim that it was the gardener who was crucified as Jesus had assumed his appearance.

So you believe this suggests a "face swap" despite the text explicitly showing it's Jesus speaking to Mary the whole time?

i'm not suggesting anything, merely pointing out where your book gives credence to odd clams.
Are we talking about the crucifixion of Jesus now?
no, we are discussing "Scriptural" references to the crucifixion. ;D

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so(like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Appeared to them so?
I DON'T KNOW! Allah and His Messenger know Best!

Everyone understands best that which they are already predisposed to understand. The "logic" is Islam is just a much a straining of credulity for me as is that which you object to within the Christian faith.
and i would say that Islam is a Religion of logic where "Christianity" is shrouded in Mystery...

:wa:
Reply

mkh4JC
10-02-2009, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I don't enjoy their INCOHERENT responses and unintelligible answers, it's painful, eg. the above answer about "closed understanding"??
Well, I don't know what to tell you. It's not something I made up I can tell you that much. And no, it wasn't just me being hesitant or wary of "going all the way." I've only experienced it once but I know without doubt it was God's way of intervening on my behalf, his way of stopping me from destroying myself. Not only that but I supported it with scripture.
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-02-2009, 09:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
and I would say that Islam is a Religion of logic where "Christianity" is shrouded in Mystery...

:wa:


[emphasis added]


Of course, YOU would. That was pretty much my point after all.
Reply

Hugo
10-02-2009, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
and i would say that Islam is a Religion of logic where "Christianity" is shrouded in Mystery...
:wa:
Since we are talking about authenticity and transmission can you be a bit more precise what you mean by 'a religion of logic' whereas Christianity is shrouded in mystery? There is mystery in all religions including Islam, indeed there are many things we don't know about God: why choose Abraham for example, and if one reads the Biblical accounts it sounds as if he is wandering in lands where he is almost totally alone yet we know that he was surrounded by many glittering empires - so what was God doing, what was God's logic?

The Jewish faith as we know it started with Abraham and we can trace that development right through to Jesus and I would say the coherence in the Bible though, it contains 66 books written over many centuries is unmistakable - so in a way it is not logic we should worry about but as people have asked for perhaps as much as 5,000 years - what is God saying to us in the words that have been recorded?
Reply

جوري
10-02-2009, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Of course, YOU would. That was pretty much my point after all.
Actually HE isn't alone and it is a wonder for even if you don't accept Islam as the one true religion you'll perhaps with theism that can't be channeled rather than concede to mythologies of a 'god born of women from the seeds of david'.. and I think anyone brooding and discerning comes up with the same conclusion, though they don't make a habit of writing convoluted sermons on random threads to assert their convictions.

Perhaps Christianity can use another revival -- but the world is too advanced now to overlook the mind boggling aspects on which your entire faith rests!

all the best
Reply

جوري
10-02-2009, 09:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I don't enjoy their INCOHERENT responses and unintelligible answers, it's painful, eg. the above answer about "closed understanding"??
well what else is left were it not for the dreams that they somehow convince themselves are divine in nature especially those that make allowable all their base desires?

2:109 Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed. From selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplisheth His purpose: for Allah hath power over all things.


:w:
Reply

Hugo
10-02-2009, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Actually HE isn't alone and it is a wonder for even if you don't accept Islam as the one true religion you'll perhaps with theism that can't be channeled rather than concede to mythologies of a 'god born of women from the seeds of david'.. and I think anyone brooding and discerning comes up with the same conclusion, though they don't make a habit of writing convoluted sermons on random threads to assert their convictions.

Perhaps Christianity can use another revival -- but the world is too advanced now to overlook the mind boggling aspects on which your entire faith rests!

all the best
You have a point but give us a 'mind boggling aspect' of Christianity (just one at a time please) and we will respond with an equally mind boggling one for Islam. Faith is a kind of mystery and it is no real mystery that we find each others viewpoint or beliefs puzzling or mind boggling and there are plenty of people out there who would regard both of us as totally nuts to believe what we do.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 05:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
You have a point but give us a 'mind boggling aspect' of Christianity (just one at a time please) and we will respond with an equally mind boggling one for Islam. Faith is a kind of mystery and it is no real mystery that we find each others viewpoint or beliefs puzzling or mind boggling and there are plenty of people out there who would regard both of us as totally nuts to believe what we do.
I see the message of Jesus/Moses and the rest in a continuum and in complete concert with Islam in course, law and practice, just not the brand of Christianity that you practice, and not the convoluted details that have adulterated it.. nonetheless if you strip it from eating and drinking the flesh of God and the rest you'll be left with the basic principles that are constitutional to all monotheistic religions..

what br. Yusuf is trying to say is that at the very fulcrum of your religion is something counter intuitive to what believe God to be.. In other words if you sit and ponder (a form of worship in Islam) and said practice of all messengers you'll reach a pivotal point where you'll see the mastery and organization of the universe as the work of a supreme being, or you'll become an atheist, but if the first is your choice and no inspiration or message came to you, then you'll almost inevitably come up with one God and you won't get colorful about his being.

There is no need to get into the nature of God to adore him..

all the best!
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 06:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
actually, "Matthew" was written in Greek.
Actually Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew and then transcribed it into Greek, but this is besides the point. The phrase, "Three days and three nights" is not meant to signify an exact passing of 72hrs, it's a Hebrew idiom for three days later, much the same way on Sunday morning I could say, "I've worked on this painting for three days!" even though I started working on it Friday night. No one would understand it to mean that I spent the last three 24hr blocks of time working on a painting. The Hebrew idiom is used in the same sense.

as for the sign of Jonah, he was ALIVE in the belly of the [fish] for 3 days and 3 nights
You must be a fan of Ahmed Deedat. Even if we are forced to take your hyper-literal interpretation of the prophecy, such that Christ was taken off the Cross within an inch of life remaining (an English idiom!) it still doesn't fit the Quranic account, which says Jesus was not crucified.

nope, in fact when we don't know the answer to a question we are supposed to say, "I DON'T KNOW!"
I've heard all sorts of things from Muslims. Here is what Ibn Kathir writes in his tafsir concerning surah 4 aya 157:

"When the king's deputy in Jerusalem received these orders, he went with some Jews to the house that `Isa was residing in, and he was then with twelve, thirteen or seventeen of his companions. That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep.

Where did Ibn Kathir get this?

not really, because it is my belief that the ONLY parts of the NT that are correct are those in line with the Qur'an.
Yes, but I am not bound to believe what the Quran says, and if the Quran says the Crucifixion of Jesus didn't happen, but only "appeared" to be so, despite Christians, Jews, and Romans agreeing it happened, then that doesn't motivate me to start believing in the Quran.

[/quote]using John 20 however, one could make the claim that it was the gardener who was crucified as Jesus had assumed his appearance. [/QUOTE]

Except that the text explicitly shows it's Jesus.

and i would say that Islam is a Religion of logic
Historically Christians were the ones who appreciated reason and philosophy, while Muslims largely rejected it (Compare and contrast Thomas Aquinas to Al-Ghazzali.)
where "Christianity" is shrouded in Mystery...
That is because Christian Doctrine is Divine. Only a man-made religion has everything comprehensible.
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 07:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I see the message of Jesus/Moses and the rest in a continuum and in complete concert with Islam in course, law and practice
Accepting a continuum is difficult to grasp, these are some basic reasons:

The three key elements of Old Testament Judaism are Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice, none of which are found in Islam, but all of which are completed and perfected in Christianity. Just compare the Islamic concept of sacrifice to that of Judaism and you see an enormous gulf of difference.

Now with regards to Christianity a simple example is Jesus' prohibiting divorce. When the Jews had asked why Moses permitted them to divorce, Jesus replied it was because they were weak of heart, but that God's intention was that one man be married to one woman and that this bound not be broken. How am I to understand that 500 years later Muhammad would come and revoke Jesus' perfection of the law, only to permit divorce again?

How do you see a continuum, exactly?
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 07:06 AM
I found this part the most amusing of all ..

Historically Christians were the ones who appreciated reason and philosophy, while Muslims largely rejected it (Compare and contrast Thomas Aquinas to Al-Ghazzali.)
So it wasn't Christianity that mired in the dark ages, while Islam was at the height of enlightenment? It wasn't pope Alexander IV that made several efforts to ban the books of Ibn Rushd? It wasn't Ibn Rushd that made it into Rafael's school of athens but some christian who believed that potatoes were the devil food and that were pointy shoes akin to being loose and that women were akin to animals as in not having souls?

Hilarious...

take pride in folks who make your god akin to a ******* and his mother a most holy woman a prostitute and that is your claim to authenticity of your religion if they acknowledge their existence all together:

Some historians go further. It is well known, and long a matter of controversy, that beginning in the early 19th century some historians disputed the existence of an historical Jesus at all. According to this theory, Jesus never existed and the early church fathers created him as a figure for their religion. The gospels are compilations of various legends that were attributed to this mythical character Jesus. Much ink has been spilled debating this theory, but there are some historians who accept this and go one step further. They identify the basis of the New Testament Jesus in the story of Yeshu Ben Pandira. This legendary figure, who was branded a heretic by Jewish leaders, founded a Jewish sect that inspired and influenced the early Christians. These early Christians then adopted the story of Yeshu Ben Pandira and modified it to fit into a later historical period and their own eclectic religious beliefs. [cf. R. Avraham Ibn Daud, Sefer Hakabbalah, 53; Sefer Hayuchasin, ibid.; Avraham Korman, Zeramim Vekitot Beyahadut, pp. 354-364].

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html

meh.. whatever you have to believe to get going..
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 07:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Accepting a continuum is difficult to grasp, these are some basic reasons:
That is rather because you are not a follower of a monotheistic religion, rather a hodgepodge of man made nonsense!

The three key elements of Old Testament Judaism are Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice, none of which are found in Islam, but all of which are completed and perfected in Christianity. Just compare the Islamic concept of sacrifice to that of Judaism and you see an enormous gulf of difference.
Those aren't the key elements of Judaism like with Islam I'd refrain from speaking on the Jewish behalf. however two of those elements are found in Islam.. priesthood is something of a christian invention, who seek intercession from anything under the sun other than God!

Now with regards to Christianity a simple example is Jesus' prohibiting divorce. When the Jews had asked why Moses permitted them to divorce, Jesus replied it was because they were weak of heart, but that God's intention was that one man be married to one woman and that this bound not be broken. How am I to understand that 500 years later Muhammad would come and revoke Jesus' perfection of the law, only to permit divorce again?
You'd have to establish authenticity of your bible yo begin with for such words to resonate with any form of truth and establish why they are so different from all monotheistic laws previously established not simply for Jews, but Sabeans, mandeans and all others of whom you have heard or haven't heard..
the bible makes it ok for a pious father to have an incestuous relationship with his two girls, it makes it ok to forgo Circumcision a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham, it makes it ok to eat pigs, it makes it ok to forgo the sabbath, it makes it ok to gamble and use use interest, it makes it ok to take idols for gods etc etc etc
I mean honestly need I list all the ways of where your religion has absolutely nothing to do with what God intended or monotheism all together?

How do you see a continuum, exactly?
I have already told you, your brand of Christianity has nothing to do with the original message, I fail to see which part of that is hard for you to understand? Those who leave your fairy tales behind and embrace Islam, br. Yusuf is actually one of those, sees the original message of Christianity as a continuum with Islam, Christianity as you know it is a continuum with paganism, I obviously can't expect you to find similarities, nor would I really want you too.. I want positively no association with fairy tales, from which Jesus is innocent..
whereas you worship effigies and dance before statues of a man/god and think you can sin because god died eating your sins for you, we believe :

3:84 Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Musa, 'Isa, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

all the best
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 07:19 AM
by the way, I rather enjoyed the Jesus' perfection part.. where was that perfection when Martin Luther made him into thrice the adulterer?

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 07:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
So it wasn't Christianity that mired in the dark ages, while Islam was at the height of enlightenment?
The fact is Christians could have gone the same path Al-Ghazzali and the Muslims went, and that is to reject philosophy as a whole. Instead the Medievals decided to translate the Greek, Jewish, and Islamic philosophical works into Latin. If Avicenna or Avveroes had a worthy commentary on Aristotle, it was studied in the universities, despite the religious differences. This move took a certain enlightenment on the part of the medievals, which was unfortunately not found among the Muslims, despite their developed civilization at the time.

Hilarious...

take pride in folks who make your god akin to a ******* and his mother a most holy woman a prostitute and that is your claim to authenticity of your religion if they acknowledge their existence all together:

Some historians go further. It is well known, and long a matter of controversy, that beginning in the early 19th century some historians disputed the existence of an historical Jesus at all. According to this theory, Jesus never existed and the early church fathers created him as a figure for their religion.
What's important is that since the 19th century the move has been in favor of Christianity. Let me give you an example. The online edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia was written around 1900. On the dating of the Gospels, the Encyclopedia authors admitted the earliest they could be dated was the 100Ad or beyond. Now however, the Gospels can be dated circa 70 AD, and the works of Paul circa 50 AD. The evidence that is uncovered only brings us closer to what Christians have traditionally believed.

Can the same be said of Islam?
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 07:36 AM
btw thomas acquinas was an apprentice to a Muslim scholar and was highly influenced by the work of ibn Sina.

Thomas what is man, what is the human person, it serves to explain what is God, the divine essence, it serves also to explain the transcendentals: unity, truth, goodness, beauty. It is a brilliant discovery that Aristotle had not seen, and St. Thomas had not read in Aristotle, but in Avicenna, a Muslim philosopher. Avicenna distinguished between essence and existence – the fact of being present in reality. And he said that philosophy had to concern itself with the essences because existence is not part of essence.
http://www.innerexplorations.com/catchmeta/Thom.htm

isn't it amazing how convenient that you should leave that out.. even the best that your world has produced owes a great deal of its debt to Islam..

you should read more often you know before you write, unless you are accustomed to dealing with only like minds? you are likely to encounter things on this forum that will make you swallow your foot and repeatedly!

all the best
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 07:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
The fact is Christians could have gone the same path Al-Ghazzali and the Muslims went, and that is to reject philosophy as a whole. Instead the Medievals decided to translate the Greek, Jewish, and Islamic philosophical works into Latin. If Avicenna or Avveroes had a worthy commentary on Aristotle, it was studied in the universities, despite the religious differences. This move took a certain enlightenment on the part of the medievals, which was unfortunately not found among the Muslims, despite their developed civilization at the time.
They have been down the ignorant path, I believe still, until they decided to monopolize other sovereign nations to steal their wealth and the best they had to offer. Any work that was translated was really courtesy of Muslims, who have not only taken the works of the ancient but perfected and corrected its mistakes. See the works of Dr. George Saliba for specific examples. The Muslim world was the very birth place of enlightenment, I am not really interested in your opinion in face of recorded historical facts!




Can the same be said of Islam?
Same what exactly be said?

we are not even on the same platform:



Church Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible
M S M Saifullah, Qasim Iqbal & Muhammad Ghoniem
© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
Last Modified: 31st August 1999

Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
The basis of evaluation of any hadîth (story or report) in Islam of any text concerned particularly with religion is based on the study of matn (i.e., text) and its isnad (i.e., chain of narration).
A hadîth (pl. ahâdîth) is composed of two parts: the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of reporters). A text may seem to be logical and reasonable but it needs an authentic isnad with reliable reporters to be acceptable; cAbdullah b. al-Mubârak (d. 181 AH), one of the illustrious teachers of Imâm al-Bukhârî, said, "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."[1]
The Christian 'hadîth' is composed of matn (text) but no isnad (chain of narration). Without isnad, as cAbdullah b. al-Mubarak said, anyone can claim anything saying that it is coming from the authority. The authorities in the case of Christian 'hadîth' are the Apostles and later day Church Fathers. But how can one be sure that the Christian 'hadîth' is not mixed with falsehood without the proper isnad and its verification?
The Old Testament, to certain extent and the New Testament in toto lack chain of narration. When this argument was put forward, the Christian missionary Jochen Katz wrote:
On 8 Oct 1998, Jochen Katz wrote (on a different thread):

> That is a bogus argument from an Islamic point of view.
Missionaries when cornered try to wiggle out of the argument by calling names. According to Katz, the Islamic argument of using the chain of narration, i.e., isnad, is 'bogus' because the New Testament and major part of Old Testament lacks it and above all it is a Muslim argument. By calling the Islamic argument of isnad 'bogus' Katz thought that he is already refuted it. Unfortunately, the Orientalists like Bernard Lewis who read this 'bogus' Islamic tradition and compares it with the Christian scholarship say that:
From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.[2]
So, after all this Islamic science of hadîth, called 'bogus' by Katz, was so advanced that its Christian counterparts were far far away from its sophistication. Futher where does it sophistication lie?
. . . it would have been easy to invent sayings of Muhammad. Because the cultural background of the Arabs had been oral the evidence that came to be expected was the chain of names of those who had passed on the anecdote containing the saying . . . The study of Traditions rapidly became a distinct branch of the studies of the general religious movement. It was soon realized that false Traditions were in circulation with sayings that Muhammad could not possibly have uttered. The chains of transmitters were therefore carefully scrutinised to make sure that the persons named could in fact have met one another, that they could be trusted to repeat the story accurately, and that they did not hold any heretical views. This implied extensive biographical studies; and many biographical dictionaries have been preserved giving the basic information about a man's teachers and pupils, the views of later scholars (on his reliability as a transmitter) and the date of his death. This biography-based critique of Traditions helped considerably to form a more or less common mind among many men throughout the caliphate about what was to be accepted and what rejected.[3]
If the Muslim traditions have been bogus, how come the Jews did not understand this and went on to use the great works composed by Muslims? Saadia Gaon, the famous Jewish linguist, says:
Saadia expresses himself unreservedly about his indebtness to Arabic authors, who served him as models in the composition of his work. "It is reported," he says, "that one of the worthies among the Ishmaelites, realizing to his sorrow that the people do not use the Arabic language correctly, wrote a short treatise for them. From which they might learn proper usages. Similarly, I have noticed that many of the Israelites even the common rules for the correct usage of our (Hebrew) language, much less the more difficult rules, so that when they speak in prose most of it is faulty, and when they write poetry only a few of the ancient rules are observed, and majority of them are neglected. This has induced me to compose a work in two parts containing most of the (Hebrew) words.[4]
Guillaume informs us in his preface of the book The Legacy Of Islam:
Since the beginning of the nineteenth century there has been a constant recourse to Arabic for the explanation of rare words and forms in Hebrew; for Arabic though more than a thousand years junior as a literary language, is the senior philosophically by countless centuries. Perplexing phenomenon in Hebrew can often be explained as solitary and archaic survivals of the form which are frequent and common in the cognate Arabic. Words and idioms whose precise sense had been lost in Jewish tradition, receive a ready and convincing explanation from the same source. Indeed no serious student of the Old Testament can afford to dispense with a first-hand knowledge in Arabic. The pages of any critical commentary on the Old Testament will illustrate the debt of the Biblical exegesis owes to Arabic.[5]
It turns out that the same tradition which Katz addressed as 'bogus' result in the exegesis of his own scriptures, the Old Testament.

Since Christianity did not have anything like the 'tradition' to evaluate their own material, we see quite a lot of differences. Let us now examine the great tradition of the Church which Katz wants Muslims to trust and also to see which tradition is really bogus.
This document is divided into the following:1. Church Tradition & The Bible

It must be made clear that there is nothing like one Bible with a set of books. The number of books in the Bible actually depend upon the Church one follows. Therefore if we follow the Church tradition we end with following Bibles. They differ in number of books in both the Old Testament and the New Testament:

Protestant Church
Historically, Protestant churches have recognized the Hebrew canon as their Old Testament, although differently ordered, and with some books divided so that the total number of books is thirty-nine. These books, as arranged in the traditional English Bible, fall into three types of literature: seventeen historical books (Genesis to Esther), five poetical books ( Job to Song of Solomon), and seventeen prophetical books. With the addition of another twenty-seven books (the four Gospels, Acts, twenty-one letters, and the book of Revelation), called the New Testament, the Christian scriptures are complete.[6]
Roman Catholic Church
The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.[7]
Anglican Church
The Anglican church falls between the Catholic church and many Protestant denominations by accepting only the Jewish canon and the New Testament as authoritative, but also by accepting segments of the apocryphal writings in the lectionary and liturgy. At one time all copies of the Authorized or King James Version of 1611 included the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments.[8]
Greek Orthodox Church
The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.[9](See below)
Coptic Church
Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form - though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.[10]
Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church
Until 1959, the Ethiopic Church was under the jurisdiction of the head of Coptic Church. Hence it is not surprising that its canon of Scripture should parallel in some respects that of the Coptic Church.
The Ethiopic church has the largest Bible of all, and distinguishes different canons, the "narrower" and the "broader," according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the "broader" canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the "narrower" New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.[11]
Bruce Metzger in his book The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development elaborates more on the books accepted by Ethiopic Church. The'broader' Canon of Ethiopic New Testament consists of the following thirty five books:
The four Gospels
Acts
The (seven) Catholic Epistles
The (fourteen) Epistles of Paul
The Book of Revelation
Sinodos (four sections)
Clement
The Book of the Covenant (two sections)
Didascalia
The contents of the last four titles in the list are as follows. The Sinodos is a book of church order, comprising an extensive collection of canons, prayers, and instructions attributed to Clement of Rome.
Clement (Qalementos) is a book in seven parts, communicated by Peter to Clement. It is not the Roman or Corinthian correspondence, nor one of the three parts of the Sinodos that are sometimes called 1, 2, and 3 Clement, nor part of the Syriac Octateuch of Clement.
The Book of Covenant (Mashafa kidan) is counted as two parts. The first part of sixty sections comprises chiefly material on church order; section 61 is a discourse of the Lord to his disciples after his resurrection, similar to the Testamentum Domini.
The Ethiopic Didascalia (Didesqelya) is a book of Church order in forty-three chapters, distinct from the Didascalia Apostolorum, but similar to books I-VII of so-called Apostlic Constitutions.[12]
Syriac Church
Let us also not forget the Syriac Churches which used to deal with Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian which was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Pe****ta. Pe****ta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament.
This represents for the New Testament an accomodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Pe****ta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (AD 431) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.[13]
Pe****ta is still followed by the Christians in the sourthern state of Kerala in India.
Still today the official lectionary followed by the Syrian Orthodox Church, with headquarters at Kottayam (Kerala), and the Chaldean Syriac Church, also known as the the Church of the East (Nestorian), with headquarters at Trichur (Kerala), presents lessons from only the twenty-two books of Pe****ta, the version to which appeal is made for the settlement of doctrinal questions.[14]
To make the issue clearer, we are here dealing with different number of books of New Testament followed by different churches all over the world. These are not the different translations of the Bible, the argument which Christian missionaries use to brush the problem under the carpet. Calling another church heretical is not going to work the problem out because there was no single book right from the beginning of Christianity which constituted the New Testament as we would see later, inshallah. The New Testament as we see today, depends upon the Church again(!), is a product of centuries worth of metamorphosis. Under "Canon of the New Testament" the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.[15]
So, the great Church tradition has not made up her mind on the Bible.
Now this would be big enough problem for the Christian missionaries to ruminate, inshallah. Let us now go into the issue of what the Apostolic Fathers refer to during their time.
2. Church Tradition & Apostolic Fathers

It is a frequent claim by the Christian missionaries that the Church Fathers believed that the New Testament was considered as 'inspired' Scripture.
Bruce M Metzger, a noted authority on the New Testament, analyzing the Apostolic Fathers viz., Clement of Rome, Ignatius, the Didache, fragments of Papias, Barnabas, Hermas of Rome, and the so-called 2 Clement concludes the following:
Clement Of Rome
By way of summary, we see that Clement's Bible is the Old Testament, to which he refers repeated as Scripture, quoting it with more or less exactness. Clement also makes occasional reference to certain words of Jesus; though they are authoritative to him, he does not appear to enquire how their authenticity is ensured. In two of the three instances that he speaks of remembering 'the words' of Christ or of the Lord Jesus, it seems that he has a written record in mind, but he does not call it a 'gospel'. He knows several of Paul's epistles, and values them highly for their content; the same can be said of the Epistle of the Hebrews with which he is well acquainted. Although these writings obviously possess for Clement considerable significance, he never refers to them as authoritative 'Scripture'.[16]
Ignatius Of Antioch
The upshot of all this is that the primary authority for Ignatius was the apostolic preaching about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, though it made little difference to him whether it was oral or written. He certainly knew a collection of Paul's epistles, including (in the order of frequency of his use of them) 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians. It is probable that he knew the Gospels according to Matthew and John, and perhaps also Luke. There is no evidence that he regarded any of these Gospels or Epistles as 'Scripture'.[17]
The Didache
The Didache is a short manual or moral instruction and Church practice. The Church history writer Eusebius and Athanasius even considered to be on the fringe of the New Testament Canon[18]. Assigning the composition of Didache has ranged from first century to fourth century by the scholars, but most of them prefer to assign it in the first half of the second century[19]. Metzger summarizes the book as:
By way of summary, we can see from Didache that itinerant apostles and Prophets still find an important place in the life of the Church, but this authority is declining. Their activity is surrounded by all sorts of precautions and rests ultimately on the authority of the traditional teaching deriving from the Lord, whose manner they must exhibit: 'Not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet, except he have the ways of the Lord. By their ways, then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be distinguished' (xi. 8). The author refers to the gospel, but he cites only words of Jesus. This 'gospel', which is without doubt the Gospel according to Matthew, is not regarded as a necessary source from which the words of the Lord, with indispensable warrants, come to the faithful, but quite simply as a convenient collection of these words.[20]
Papias Of Heirapolis
By way of summary, Papias stands as a kind of bridge between the oral and written stages in the transmission of the gospel tradition. Although he professes to have a marked preference for the oral tradition, one nevertheless sees at work the causes that, more and more, would lead to the rejection of that form of tradition in favour of written gospels. On the whole, therefore, the testimony of Papias concerning the development of the canon of the New Testament is significant chiefly in reflecting the usage of the community in which devotion to oral tradition hindered the development of a clear idea of canonicity.[21]
Barnabas
Epistle of Barnabas is a theological tract. Both Clement of Alexandria and Origen valued the work highly and attributed its composition Barnabas, the companion and co-worker of the apostle Paul.
Metzger summarizes the position of Barnabas concerning the scripture as the following.
By way of summary, one can see that for Barnabas the Scriptures are what we call the Old Testament, including several books outside the Hebrew canon. Most of his contacts with the Synoptic traditions involve simple sentences that might well have been known to a Christian of that time from oral tradition. As against the single instance of his using the formula, 'it is written', in introducing the statement, 'Many are called, but few are chosen', must be placed his virtual neglect of the New Testament. If, on the other hand, he wrote shortly before or after 130, the focus of his subject matter would not make it necessary to do much quoting from New Testament books - if indeed he knew many of them. In either case he provides no evidence for the development of the New Testament canon.[22]
Polycarp Of Smyrna
By way of summary, the short Epistle of Polycarp contains proportionately far more allusions to the writings of the New Testament than are present in any other of the Apostolic Fathers. He certainly had a collection of at least eight Pauline Epistles (including two of the Pastorals), and was acquainted as well with Hebrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John. As for the Gospels, he cites as sayings of the Lord phrases that we find in Matthew and Luke. With one exception, none of Polycarp's many allusions is cited as Scripture - and that exception, as we have seen, is held by some to have been mistakenly attributed to the Old Testament. At the same time Polycarp's mind is not only saturated with ideas and phrases derived from a considerable number of writings that later came to be regarded as New Testament Scriptures, but he also displays latent respect for these apostolic documents as possessing an authority lacking in other writings. Polycarp, as Grant remarks, 'clearly differentiates the apostolic age from his own time and, presumably for this reason, does not use the letters of Ignatius as authoritiesóeven though they "contain faith, endurance, and all the edification which pertains to our Lord" (xiii. 2)'.[23]
Hermas Of Rome
By way of summary, it is obvious that Hermas was not given to making quotations from literature; in fact, the only actual book anywhere named and quoted in the Shepherd ( Vis. ii. 3) is an obscure Jewish apocalypse known as the book of Eldad and Modat. Despite reminiscences from Matthew, Ephesians, and James, Hermas makes no comment that would lead us to think that he regarded them as canonical Scripture. From the testimony contained in the Shepherd, it can in any case be observed how uneven during the course of the second century was the development of the idea of the canon.[24]
The So-Called Second Epistle Of Clement
This work is not the genuine work of Clement of Rome. This is regarded as an early Christian sermon. The style of this work is different from that of 1 Clement. Both date and composition of this work are difficult to determine. It was probably written around 150 CE. Metzger summarizes the contents of this work as:
By way of recapitulation, the unknown author of 2 Clement certainly knew and used Matthew and Luke, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. There is no trace of the Johannine Gospel or Epistles, or of the Book of Acts. And one can not say more than that he may have known Hebrews, James, and 1 Peter. Of the eleven times he cites words of Jesus, five are not to be found in the canonical Gospels. The presence of these latter, as well as the citation in xi. 2-4 of an apocryphal book of the Old Testament, introduced as 'the prophetic word', shows that our homilist's quotations of divinely authoritative words are not controlled by any strict canonical idea, even in relation to Old Testament writings.[25]
After studying the writings of all the Apostolic Fathers, Bruce Metzger concludes that:
For early Jewish Christians the Bible consisted of the Old Testament and some Jewish apocryphal literature. Along with this written authority went traditions, chiefly oral, of sayings attributed to Jesus. On the other hand, authors who belonged to the 'Hellenistic Wing' of the Church refer more frequently to writings that later came to be included in the New Testament. At the same time, however, they very rarely regarded such documents as 'Scripture'.
Furthermore, there was as yet no conception of the duty of exact quotation from books that were not yet in the full sense canonical. Consequently, it is sometimes exceedingly difficult to ascertain which New Testament books were known to early Christian writers; our evidence does not become clear until the end of second century.[26]
We have evidence of the spotty development and treatment of the writings later regarded as the New Testament in the second and third centuries CE. Gradually written Gospels, and collections of epistles, different ones in different regions, became to be more highly regarded.

So for 200 years or so there was nothing like New Testament to begin with. The great Church tradition did not even bother to collect the 'Scriptures' between two covers!

3. Church Tradition & The Early Lists Of The Books Of The New Testament
Now when the Church tradition finally started to make up her mind on compiling the New Testament various lists of books in the Canons of the Bible were drawn. Bruce Metzger gives the following list of the Canons of the Bible drawn at different times in the 'western' Church. Please note that we still do not have the great deal of idea about how many lists were drawn in the Eastern Churches such as Coptic and Ethiopic. The following are the canons drawn at various points of time in the Church history.
To complete the thoughts about how the New Testament evolved, a brief survey of early lists of the books of the New Testament is necessary. The list is taken from Appendix IV of Bruce Metzger's The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development[27].


The earliest exact reference to the 'complete' New Testament as we now know it was in the year 367 CE, in a letter by Athanasius. This did not settle the matter. Varying lists continued to be drawn up by different church authorities as can be seen from above.

The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the authority for the Canon and the interpretation of scripture, therefore the owner of the list of 27 books. Nevertheless, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, entry "Canon of NT" proclaims that 20 books of the New Testament are inherently worth more than the 7 deuterocanonical books (Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation), acknowledging that the authenticity or reliability of them had already been challenged by ancient Christian authorities.
The Catholic New Testament, as defined by the Council of Trent, does not differ, as regards the books contained, from that of all Christian bodies at present. Like the Old Testament, the New has its deuterocanonical books and portions of books, their canonicity having formerly been a subject of some controversy in the Church. These are for the entire books: the Epistle to the Hebrews, that of James, the Second of St. Peter, the Second and Third of John, Jude, and Apocalypse; giving seven in all as the number of the New Testament contested books. The formerly disputed passages are three: the closing section of St. Mark's Gospel, xvi, 9-20 about the apparitions of Christ after the Resurrection; the verses in Luke about the bloody sweat of Jesus, xxii, 43, 44; the Pericope Adulteræ, or narrative of the woman taken in adultery, St. John, vii, 53 to viii, 11. Since the Council of Trent it is not permitted for a Catholic to question the inspiration of these passages.[28]
We will deal more with the individual books (i.e., Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation) later, inshallah.

4. Church Tradition & 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books

Whatever this word 'inspiration' means in the Church tradition to select the books, it does not mean what it actually means. A small list of the following books which are not there in the present day New Testament were at once time considered 'inspired'. Going further in history as the concept of New Testament 'Canon' evolved many books were considered 'inspired' which we do not see in the Bibles of 20th century. A brief survey of those books would be considered here.

The Didache:
Several of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers were for a time regarded in some localities as authoritative. The Didache was used both by Clement of Alexandria and by Origen as Scripture, and there is evidence that during the following century it continued to be so regarded in Egypt.[29]
Epistle of Clement:
The text of the (First) Epistle of Clement is contained, along with a portion of the so-called Second Epistle of Clement, at the end of the fifth-century Codex Alexandrinus of the Greek Bible (the manuscript is defective at the end). Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all made use of the epistle. We know that about A.D. 170 it was customary to read 1 Clement in public services of worship at Corinth.[30]
Epistle of Barnabas:
The Epistle of Barnabas was for a time on the fringe of the canon. Clement of Alexandria regarded it as of sufficient importance to write a commentary on it in his Hypotyposes, now lost. Origen calls it 'catholic', a term that he elsewhere applies to 1 Peter and 1 John. It stands after the New Testament in the fourth-century Codex Sinaiticus of the Greek Bible.[31]
Shepherd of Hermas:
The Shepherd of Hermas was used as Scripture by Irenaeus, Tertullian (before his conversion to Montanism), Clement of Alexandria, and Origen, though according to Origen it was not generally read in church. The Muratorian Canon reflects the esteem in which the work was held at the time that list was compiled, but according to the unknown compiler, it might be read but not proclaimed as Scripture in church.[32]
Furthermore, Clement of Alexandria had a very 'open' canon, i.e., he did not mind using the materials of pagans, 'heretics' and other Christian literature.[33] It is worthwhile reminding here that we have already seen different set of books in Ethiopic and Coptic Church.

5. Church Tradition & Manuscripts

As much as there is a variation is the canons of the Bible as well as in its 'inspiration', it is reflected in the manuscripts too. Below is some material taken from The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Under "Text, NT". Interestingly enough, this section starts with The Problem. Many Christian apologists prefer to brush this well-known problem under the carpet as if it does not exist!
THE PROBLEM. The NT is now known, whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek MSS alone. Every one of these handwritten copics differ from every other one. In addition to these Greek MSS, the NT has been preserved in more than ten thousand MSS of the early versions and in thousands of quotations of the Church Fathers. These MSS of the versions and quotations of the Church Fathers differ from one another just as widely as do the Greek MSS. Only a fraction of this great mass of material has been fully collated and carefully studied. Until this task is completed, the uncertainty regarding the text of the NT will remain.

It has been estimated that these MSS and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher. A study of 150 Greek MSS of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings. It is true, of course, that the addition of the readings from another 150 MSS of Luke would not add another 30,000 readings to the list. But each MS studied does add substantially to the list of variants. It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS tradition is wholly uniform.

Many thousands of these different readings are variants in orthography or grammar or style and however effect upon the meaning of the text. But there are many thousands which have a definite effect upon the meaning of the text. It is true that not one of these variant readings affects the substance of Christian dogma. It is equally true that many of them do have theological significance and were introduced into the text intentionally. It may not, e.g., affect the substance of Christian dogma to accept the reading "Jacob the father of Joseph, and Joseph (to whom the virgin Mary was betrothed) the father of Jesus who is called 'Christ'" (Matt. 1:16), as does the Sinaitic Syriac; but it gives rise to a theological problem.

It has been said that the great majority of the variant readings in the text of the NT arose before the books of the NT were canonized and that after those books were canonized, they were very carefully copied because they were scripture. This, however, is far from being the case.

It is true, of course, that many variants arose in the very earliest period. There is no reason to suppose, e.g., that the first person who ever made a copy of the autograph of thc Gospel of Luke did not change his copy to conform to the particular tradition with which he was familiar. But he was under no compulsion to do so. Once the Gospel of Luke had become scripture, however, the picture was changed completely. Then the copyist was under compulsion to change his copy, to correct it. Because it was scripture, it had to be right.[34]
After reading all this, does not the Muslim position of the corruption of the Bible hold water? And of course, again which Bible manuscript is inspired?

Now we all know that none of the variants that are there in the Bible have a chain of narration or isnad. So it is very hard to say which one or ones is the true reading and the other the bogus one. So, futher on we read:
Many thousands of the variants which are found in the MSS of the NT were put there deliberately. They are not merely the result of error or of careless handling of the text. Many were created for theological or dogmatic reasons (even though they may not affect the substance of Christian dogma). It is because the books of the NT are religious books, sacred books, canonical books, that they were changed to conform to what the copyist believed to be the true reading. His interest was not in the "original reading but in the "true reading." This is precisely the attitude toward the NT which prevailed from the earliest times to the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the invention of printing. The thousands of Greek MSS, MSS of the versions, and quotations of the Church Fathers provide the source for our knowledge of the earliest or original text of the NT and of the history of the transmission of that text before the invention of printing.[34]
Now if you do not know what the "original reading" is, then there is no point talking about 'believing' in what is supposed to be the "original" reading. So, this is the great Christian Church tradition which cannot even produce two identical manuscripts! Furthermore on "original" reading one can say that since there are no original manuscripts, there is not point talking about "original" reading at all. This search for "original" reading would be a guess work or 'consensus'. Indeed the Acts of Apostles has earned the notoriety for the variant readings.
In fact no book of the NT gives evidence of so much verbal variation as does the Acts of Apostles. Besides the text represented in the oldest uncial Greek MSS, begin with the Codex Vaticanus, often called the Neutral Text and dating back to the second century AD, there is evidence either of a consistent alternative text equally old, or of a series of early miscellaneous variants, to which the name Western text is traditionally applied. The ancient authorities of the Western Text of Acts include only one Greek (or rather bilingual Greek and Latin) uncial MS, Codex Bezae of the fifth or sixth century. But the variants often have striking content and strong early support from Latin writers and Latin NT MSS. It now appears that while both the Neutral and Western texts were in circulation, the former is the more likely of the two to represent the original.[35]
Apart from the notorious variation, we also have the problem of which text is the original text. Since we do not know which one is original, the guess work in pressed into service. This is one such example of guess work. And how come guess work leads to truth?
We have already seen that the there is no original document of the Bible available to us to verify its inerrancy doctrine. Concerning the New Testament documents The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible confirms that:
The original copies of the NT books have, of course, long since disappeared. This fact should not cause surprise. In the first place, they were written on papyrus, a very fragile and persihable material. In the second place, and probably of even more importance, the original copies of the NT books were not looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities.[36]
So, the Qur'an in this aspect is far more better placed than the Bible with all the Qiraa'a associated with it clearly listed with detailed chain of narrations going back to the Companions of the Prophet(P) who in turn learnt the Qur'an from the Prophet(P) himself.

6. Church Tradition & The Six 'Disputed' Books

As we have seen above that the books of Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude and Revelation had quite a dubious history of the entry into the canon, it is time that we have a cursory glance over their comparatively recent history.

Zwingli, at the Berne disputation of 1528, denied that Revelation was a book of the New Testament.[37]

Martin Luther condemned the Epistle of James as worthless, an 'epistle of straw.' Furthermore, he denigrated Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation). He did not omit them from his German Bible, but drew a line in the table of contents, putting them on a lower level than the rest of the New Testament. In Prefaces to each of these books, Luther explains his doubts as to their apostolic as well as canonical authority.[38]

The reformer known as Andreas Bodenstein of Karlstadt (1480-1541) divided the New Testament into three ranks of differing dignity. On the lowest level are the seven disputed books of James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation).[39]
Oecolampadius in 1531 under Wurttemberg Confession declared that while all 27 books should be received, the Apocalypse (Revelation), James, Jude, 2 Peter 2 and 3 John should not be compared to the rest of the books.[40]
Early in his career, Erasmus (d. 1536) doubted that Paul was the author of Hebrews, and James of the epistle bearing the name. He also questioned the authorship of 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude. The style of Revelation precludes it from being written by the author of the Fourth Gospel.[41]
The same four books are labeled 'Apocrypha' in a Bible from Hamburg in 1596. In Sweden, beginning in 1618, the Gustavus Adolphus Bible labels the four dubious books as 'Apocryphal New Testament.' This arrangement lasted for more than a century.[42]
Conclusions

With all the gory details of the Church history and the Bible are out, with no clear cut indication of the Bible and its 'inspiration', why would any Muslim even bother to read it? And above all why should a Christian missionaries would push such a dubious set of scriptures down the throat of Muslims? And above all why call it injil?

cAbdullah Ibn Mascud, the well known Companion of the Prophet(P), is reported to have said:
Do not ask the ahl al-kitab about anything (in tafsir), for they cannot guide you and are themselves in error....[43]
If Christianity has got the biographies of the people who transmitted their New Testament or Old Testament as well as their traditions, it would compete with the Islamic science of hadîth. Alas, with no isnad, who is going to believe in their Bible and what is in it? And as the illustrious teacher of Imaam Bukhari had said:
"The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."
The lack of isnad and people drawing different Canons of the Bible seem to be the problem of people saying whatever they wished. Any one would claim anything and the Bible canon seems to reflect precisely that.
And look how bogus the missionary argument turned out to be!
A Few Questions
As Muslims we are obliged to ask:

  1. Which Bible or the books are inspired? Is it the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Ethiopic, Coptic or the Syriac? Please remember that they contain different number of books. It is just not the "oh! those are different translations".
  2. How can we trust the Church tradition when she herself cannot produce a reliable bunch of books worth calling a Bible?
  3. Why should we trust the Church which cannot even produce a set of manuscripts throughout the centuries which can be relied on instead of the guess work to find which reading is the original?
  4. How do we know that Jesus(P) said what is there in the Bible as there is no way of confirm how his words got transmitted? This is one of the major argument of Islamic traditionalists against the Older scriptures which deal with Israa'iliyat stuff. And they were rejected outright for very obvious reasons.

And if Christian missionaries cannot answer these question, there is no point calling the Bible as a reliable document. Therefore, an unreliable document is worth not calling a 'Scripture'.
Other Articles Related To The Textual Reliability Of The BibleIslamic Awareness

Bible

Text

Church Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible


References
[1] Suhaib Hasan, An Introduction To The Science Of Hadîth, 1995, Darussalam Publishers, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, p. 11.
[2] Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105.
[3] W Montgomery Watt, What Is Islam?, 1968, Longman, Green and Co. Ltd., pp. 124-125.
[4] Henry Malter, Saadia Gaon: His Life And Works, 1921, The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia, pp. 39-40.
[5] Alfred Guillaume, The Legacy Of Islam, 1931, Oxford, p. ix.
[6] Bruce M Metzger & Michael D Coogan (Ed.), Oxford Companion To The Bible, 1993, Oxford University Press, Oxford & New York, pp. 79 (Under 'Bible').
[7] Ibid.
[8] Ibid.
[9] Ibid.
[10] Bruce M Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, 1997, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 225.
[11] Metzger, Oxford Companion To The Bible, Op.Cit, p. 79.
[12] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 227-228.
[13] Ibid., p. 219.
[14] Ibid., p. 220.
[15] The Catholic EncyclopediaOnline Edition.
[16] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 43.
[17] Ibid., p. 49.
[18] Ibid., p. 49.
[19] Ibid., p. 50.
[20] Ibid., p. 51.
[21] Ibid., pp. 55-56.
[22] Ibid., pp. 58-59.
[23] Ibid., pp. 62-63.
[24] Ibid., p. 67.
[25] Ibid., pp. 71-72.
[26] Ibid., pp. 72-73.
[27] Ibid., pp. 305-315.
[28] The Catholic EncyclopediaOnline Edition.
[29] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 187-188.
[30] Ibid., p. 188.
[31] Ibid.
[32] Ibid.
[33] Ibid., pp.130-135.
[34] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 4, 1962 (1996 Print), Abingdon Press, Nashville, pp. 594-595 (Under Text, NT).
[35] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 1, pp. 41 (Under "Acts of the Apostles").
[36] Ibid., p. 599 (Under "Text, NT').
[37] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 273.
[38] Ibid., p. 243.
[39] Ibid., pp. 241-242.
[40] Ibid., p. 244.
[41] Ibid., p. 241.
[42] Ibid., pp. 244-245.
[43] Ahmad von Denffer, cUlûm al-Qur'an, 1994, The Islamic Foundation, p. 134.
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do you find this an exercise in futility? I find you ignorant of basic history, and basic tenets of other people's religion.. what is it exactly that you are hoping to accomplish? to hammer those concepts in with every repeated post?

all the best!
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 07:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
priesthood is something of a christian invention, who seek intercession from anything under the sun other than God!
So you had no idea that the Jews had a divinely instituted priesthood?....

You'd have to establish authenticity of your bible
Take it from an agnostic perspective. If I want to learn about Jesus teachings, do I turn to a collection of writings dated 20-60 years after his death, written by people who knew him either directly or indirectly... or do I turn to a book written 500 years later, composed by a self proclaimed prophet who lived outside the time, culture, and region of Jesus? To me the answer is obvious, and it's probably why you don't see too many secular scholars consulting the Quran when studying Jesus.

I have already told you, your brand of Christianity has nothing to do with the original message, I fail to see which part of that is hard for you to understand?
You fail to see because you've presumed certain things to be true out of faith. You presume that Jesus was just an ordinary man, that his followers were Jews who kept the law, believed in his virgin birth, but knew he wasn't crucified. The problem is such a group never existed, so your idea of "original Christianity" is something that does not exist historically. For us not bound by a text written 500 years after Jesus, we turn to the earliest sources we have, and they tell a very different story.

Those who leave your fairy tales behind and embrace Islam
Some followers of Muhammad's Sunnah realize being muslim requires being Christian.

Wa salaam,
Sojourn
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 08:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Any work that was translated was really courtesy of Muslims, who have not only taken the works of the ancient but perfected and corrected its mistakes.
I suppose if "correction" is taken to mean a wholesale rejection of anything foreign, then yes. And just as an aside, Muslim philosophers such as Averroes and Avicenna would have been executed had it not been for the favor of the Sultans that protected them.

I find you ignorant of basic history, and basic tenets of other people's religion..
This coming from someone who doesn't know the Jews had a priesthood...

And despite your lengthy quote of Islamic-awareness, not secular scholar or historian would accept the Islamic account of anything related to Jesus, and this includes the "appearance" of a crucifixion while Jesus was whisked away into heaven.
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 08:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
btw thomas acquinas was an apprentice to a Muslim scholar
If you're being truthful you can tell us the name of the Muslim Scholar that taught St Thomas.

isn't it amazing how convenient that you should leave that out.. even the best that your world has produced owes a great deal of its debt to Islam..
I didn't leave it out. St Thomas was a Medieval Christian, and he studied the works of Aristotle and anyone who wrote about him, and this included Jewish, Muslim, and other Christian thinkers. That is precisely the enlightenment of the Medievals, who did not shy away from thought that was foreign.

you should read more often you know before you write
Apply that advice to yourself.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 08:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
So you had no idea that the Jews had a divinely instituted priesthood?....
The majority of Reform Jews and Reconstructionist Jews consider all rules and ceremonies regarding the priesthood to be outdated. Many consider it to be anti-egalitarian, and thus discriminatory against Jews who are not Kohanim. Therefore the honors given to the Kohen during the Torah reading and in the performance of the Priestly Blessing are not observed..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen

Take it from an agnostic perspective. If I want to learn about Jesus teachings, do I turn to a collection of writings dated 20-60 years after his death, written by people who knew him either directly or indirectly... or do I turn to a book written 500 years later, composed by a self proclaimed prophet who lived outside the time, culture, and region of Jesus? To me the answer is obvious, and it's probably why you don't see too many secular scholars consulting the Quran when studying Jesus.
That is a good question indeed given that the epistle of James Jesus' very brother where his human nature if defined has been excluded from your church teachings in favor or books written by nameless scribes some 300 yrs later! although I enjoy how the span of time gets shorter and shorter with each subsequent post.. also ironically for books written right after his alleged crucifixion you can't get the four of them to agree... so I rather think the answer is obvious.. it isn't about the date, rather the source of information!


You fail to see because you've presumed certain things to be true out of faith. You presume that Jesus was just an ordinary man, that his followers were Jews who kept the law, believed in his virgin birth, but knew he wasn't crucified. The problem is such a group never existed, so your idea of "original Christianity" is something that does not exist historically. For us not bound by a text written 500 years after Jesus, we turn to the earliest sources we have, and they tell a very different story.
Such groups indeed existed and as such mentioned in the Quran.. and in fact in your very credible books which never contradict each other we find:

NIV©He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."NAS©But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."ISV©But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."GWT©Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."KJVBut he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.AKJBut he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.ASVBut he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.BBEBut he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.DRBAnd he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel. DBYBut he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.ERVBut he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.WBSBut he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.WEY"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.WEBBut he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."YLT and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

you can't really be the god of mankind and by same token be sent to a select few who desired your death!

Some followers of Muhammad's Sunnah realize being muslim requires being Christian.

Wa salaam,
Sojourn
I doubt that very much!

all the best
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 08:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
If you're being truthful you can tell us the name of the Muslim Scholar that taught St Thomas.
I don't actually remember his name, but I knew that he was influenced by the works of Muslim which enabled my feeble search to yield the results you saw above, just like I found you from the web the works of the Muslim scholar whose work has influenced him, I am sure if refined the search you'll find the one to whom he was an actual apprentice.


I didn't leave it out. St Thomas was a Medieval Christian, and he studied the works of Aristotle and anyone who wrote about him, and this included Jewish, Muslim, and other Christian thinkers. That is precisely the enlightenment of the Medievals, who did not shy away from thought that was foreign.
You found a singular man and augmented his work, though his work relied greatly on the works of those you despise and just a couple of posts ago you alleged no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together, even in spite of frank persecution of your churches to ban Islamic philosophy, are you merely a hypocrite or have selective memory loss?


Apply that advice to yourself.
I am not the one making an ass of myself on every post and then pretending I didn't write!

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 08:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The majority of Reform Jews and Reconstructionist Jews consider all rules and ceremonies regarding the priesthood to be outdated. Many consider it to be anti-egalitarian, and thus discriminatory against Jews who are not Kohanim. Therefore the honors given to the Kohen during the Torah reading and in the performance of the Priestly Blessing are not observed..
I see you're reduced to quoting the opinions of reformed Jews, how telling. But please note the quote you provide does not deny the fact that the Jews had a priesthood.

"Bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water... Anoint them just as you anointed their father, so they may serve me as priests. Their anointing will be to a priesthood that will continue for all generations to come." Moses did everything just as the LORD commanded him."
Exodus 40:12-16

That is a good question indeed given that the epistle of James Jesus' very brother where his human nature if defined has been excluded from your church teachings in favor or books written by nameless scribes some 300 yrs later!
Are you not aware the Epistle of James is part of the New Testament?

This is the title James gave to Jesus:

"My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory."
James 2:1

also ironically for books written right after his alleged crucifixion you can't get the four of them to agree... so I rather think the answer is obvious.. it isn't about the date, rather the source of information!
So if one companion witnessed 300 soldiers being quenched by water miraculously flowing through Muhammad's hands, but another only saw 80 soldiers quenched, that means the event never happened?
Such groups indeed existed and as such mentioned in the Quran
Name me the historical group of early Christians that believed Jesus to be an ordinary man, had a virgin birth, and was not crucified.

and in fact in your very credible books which never contradict each other we find:
NIV©He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Thank you for building a case off a selective quote. The answer is a matter of chronology.That is what He said at the *start* of of Mission, since He came first to the lost sheep of Israel. This is what He said at His resurrection:

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Matthew 28: 19-20
I doubt that very much!
You doubt what you imagine us to believe.
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 08:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't actually remember his name
You don't remember because there was no Muslim scholar that taught St Thomas.
You found a singular man and augmented his work, though his work relied greatly on the works of those you despise
Who is this singular man? And I don't despise anyone, despite our disagreements.

and just a couple of posts ago you alleged no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together,
You have a habit for being careless with words, and even making things up. Why don't you quote me where I said no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together.

I am not the one making an ass of myself on every post and then pretending I didn't write!
Apparently you are.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 03:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
I see you're reduced to quoting the opinions of reformed Jews, how telling. But please note the quote you provide does not deny the fact that the Jews had a priesthood.

"Bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water... Anoint them just as you anointed their father, so they may serve me as priests. Their anointing will be to a priesthood that will continue for all generations to come." Moses did everything just as the LORD commanded him."
Exodus 40:12-16
I can hardly take credit for other people's beliefs that are publicly denounced!

Are you not aware the Epistle of James is part of the New Testament?

This is the title James gave to Jesus:

"My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory."
James 2:1
Rather selectively a part of the NT..

have a look:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1227242



So if one companion witnessed 300 soldiers being quenched by water miraculously flowing through Muhammad's hands, but another only saw 80 soldiers quenched, that means the event never happened?
Bring the hadith from a reputable Muslim site, not from your stealth crusade, I fear your words are worth as much as two dollar bill!

Name me the historical group of early Christians that believed Jesus to be an ordinary man, had a virgin birth, and was not crucified.
Enjoy!


Barnabas was a Jew born in Cyrus. His name was Joses, and due to his devotion to the cause of Jesus, the other apostles had given him the surname of Barnabas; this term is variously translated as "Son of Consolation" or "Son of Exhortation".
He was a successful preacher with a magnetic personality. Any one tormented by the clash of creeds found solace and peace in his company. His eminence as a man who had been close to Jesus had made him a prominent member of the small group of disciples in Jerusalem who had gathered together after the disappearance of Jesus. They observed the Law of the Prophets, which Jesus had come, "not to destroy but, to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17). They continued to live as Jews and practiced what Jesus had taught them. That Christianity could ever be regarded as a new religion did not occur to any of them. They were devout and practicing Jews distinguished from their neighbours only by their faith in the message of Jesus.
In the beginning they did not organise themselves as a separate sect and did not have a synagogue of their own. There was nothing in the message of Jesus, as understood by them, to necessitate a break with Judaism. However, they incurred the enmity of the vested interests among the Jewish higher echelon. The conflict between the Jews and the followers of Jesus was started by the Jews because they felt that the Christians would undermine their authority.
ACTS 12: 25
"And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark."

ACTS 13: 1 and 2
"Now there was in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers, as Barnabas, and Simeon, that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrach, and Saul. "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said: Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

ACTS 14:11 to 15
"And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia. The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. "And they called Barnabas Jupiter, and Paul Mercurius. "Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

"Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out.
"And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are thereon."
The gulf progressively began to widen. During the siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Christians left the city; and refused to take part in the Bar Coachaba rebellion in 132 A.D. These two events brought to the surface the difference between the Christians and the Jews.
The question of the origin of Jesus, his nature and relation to God, which later became so important, was not raised among these early disciples. That Jesus was a man supernaturally endowed by God was accepted without question. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view. According to Aristides, one of the earliest apologists, the worship of the early Christians was more purely monotheistic even than of the Jews.
With the conversion of Paul a new period opened in Christian Theology. Paul's theology was based on his personal experience interpreted in the light of contemporary Greek thought. The theory of redemption was the child of his brain, a belief entirely unknown to the disciples of Jesus. Paul's theory involved the deification of Jesus.
The Pauline period in the history of the Christian Church saw a change of scene and principles. In place of the disciples, who had sat at the feet of Jesus, a new figure, who had not known Jesus, had come to the forefront. In place of Palestine, the Roman Empire became the scene of Christian activity. Instead of being a mere sect of Judaism, Christianity not only became independent of Judaism but also became independent of Jesus himself.
Paul was a Jewish inhabitant of Tarsus. He had spent a long time in Rome and was a Roman citizen. He realised the strong hold which the Roman religion had on the masses. The intellectuals were under the influence of Plato and Aristotle. Paul seems to have felt that it would not be possible to convert the masses in the Roman Empire without making mutual adjustments. But his practical wisdom was not acceptable to those who had seen and heard Jesus. However, in spite of their difference, they decided to work together for the common cause.
As recorded in the Acts, Barnabas represented those who had become personal disciples of Jesus, and Paul co-operated with them for some time. But finally they fell out. Paul wanted to give up the Commandments given through Moses about things to eat; he wanted to give up the Commandment given through Abraham regarding circumcision. Barnabas and the other personal disciples disagreed. The following sentences in the Acts give a hint of the rift:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." "When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputations with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question" (Acts 14:1 and 2).
After this rift, there was a parting of the ways. In the Acts, Barnabas disappears after the rift, because the recording of the acts of the Apostles was done by the followers of Paul. Because of Paul's compromise with Roman beliefs and legends, Pauline Christians grew in number and grew in strength. A stage was later reached when kings were used as pawns to further the ends of the Church.
The followers of Barnabas never developed a central organization. Yet due to the devotion of their leaders their number increased very fast. These Christians incurred the wrath of the Church and systematic effort was made to destroy them and to obliterate all traces of their existence including books and churches. The lesson of history, however, is that it is very difficult to destroy faith by force. Their lack of organization became a source of strength because it was not so easy to pick them up one by one.
Modern research has brought to light odd facts about these Christians. They are like the crests of waves and looking at them one can visualise a whole body of ocean not yet visible.
We notice that up to the 4th century A.D. there existed a sect known as Hypisistarians who refused to worship God as father. They revered Him as an All Mighty Ruler of the world, He was the Highest of all and no one was equal to Him. Paul of Samasata was a Bishop of Antioch. He was of the view that Christ was not God but a man and a prophet. He differed only in degree from prophets who came before him and that God could not have become man substantially.
Then we come across another Bishop of Antioch viz Lucian. As a Bishop his reputation for sanctity was not less than his fame as a scholar. He came down strongly against the belief of Trinity. He deleted all mention of Trinity from the Bible as he believed it to be a later interpolation not found in the earlier Gospels. He was martyred in 312 A.D.
Next we come to the famous disciple of Lucian viz Arius (250-336 A.D.) He was a Libyan by birth. Peter Bishop of Alexandria ordained him a Deacon but later excommunicated him. Achilles the successor of Peter again ordained Arius as priest. Alexander the next Bishop of Alexandria once again excommunicated him. Arius however had gathered such a large following that he became a headache for the Church. If kept out of Church he could be a great danger to her but he could not be accommodated within the Church as he wanted to establish the unity and simplicity of the Eternal God. He believed that how so ever much Christ may surpass other created beings he himself was not of the same substance as God. He was as human being as any other man. The teaching of Arius spread like wild fire and shook the very foundation of the Pauline Church. The controversy that was simmering for three hundred years suddenly became a conflagration. No man dared to oppose the organized Church but Arius did, and remained a headache for her whether he was ordained a priest or was excommunicated. During this time two events changed the history of Europe.
Emperor Constantine brought a greater part of Europe under his rule and secondly he began to support the Christians without accepting Christianity. To the soldier prince the different creeds within the Christian faith were very confusing. In the Imperial Palace itself the controversy was raging not less fiercely. It appears that perhaps the Queen Mother was inclined towards Pauline Christianity while his sister Princess Constantina was a disciple of Arius. The Emperor was wavering between the two faiths. As an administrator he was interested only in uniting all the Christians within one Church.
It was at this time that the conflict between Arius and Bishop Alexander became so widespread and so violent that it became a law and order problem. So the Emperor anxious to maintain peace in the newly unified Europe had to intervene.
In 325 A.D. a meeting of all denominations of Christianity was called at Nicea (Now Isnik, a village). Bishop Alexander was not able to attend the conference and he deputed his lieutenant Athanasius, who subsequently succeeded Alexander as Bishop of Alexandria.
The conference had many prolonged sessions. Emperor Constantine could not grasp the full implications of the ecclesiastical confrontation, but he was very clear in his mind that for maintaining peace in his realm the support and cooperation of the Church was necessary. Accordingly he threw his weight behind Athanasius and banished Arius from the realm. Thus the belief of Trinity became the official religion of the empire. Fearful massacre of Christians who did not believe in Trinity followed. It became a penal offense to possess a Bible not authorized by the Church and according to some estimates as many as 270 different versions of the Bible were burnt. Princess Constantina was not happy at the turn of events. The Emperor ultimately was persuaded to accept the faith of the men he killed. The result was that Arius was called back in 346. The day Arius was scheduled to visit the Cathedral of Constantinople in triumph, he died suddenly. The Church called it a miracle. The Emperor knew it was a murder. He banished Athanasius and two other Bishops. The Emperor then formally accepted Christianity and was baptized by an Arian Bishop. Thus Monotheism became the official religion. Constantine died in 337. The next Emperor Constantanius also accepted the faith of Arius. In 341 a conference was held in Antioch and Monotheism was accepted as a correct interpretation of Christian faith. This view was confirmed by another Council held in Sirmium in 351. As a result Arianism was accepted by an overwhelming majority of Christians. St. Jerome wrote in 359 that 'the whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian'.
In this context the next important figure is that of Pope Honorius. A contemporary of Prophet Mohammed (peace be on him) he saw the rising tide of Islam whose tenets very much resembled those of Arius. As the mutual killings of Christians was still fresh in his memory he perhaps thought of finding a via media between Islam and Christianity. In his letters he began to support the doctrine of 'one mind', because if God has three independent minds the result would be chaos. The logical conclusion pointed to the belief in the existence of one God. This doctrine was not officially challenged for about half a century. Pope Honorius died in October 638. In 680, i.e. 42 years after his death, a council was held in Constantinople where Pope Honorius was anathematized. This event is unique in the history of Papacy when a Pope was denounced by a succeeding Pope and the Church.
The next two personalities of this faith that deserve mention were members of the same family. L. F. M. Sozzini (1525- 1565) was native of Siena. In 1547 he came under the influence of Camillo a Sicilian mystic. His fame spread in Switzerland He challenged Calvin on the doctrine of Trinity. He amplified the doctrine of Arius, denied the divinity of Christ and repudiated the doctrine of original sin and atonement. The object of adoration according to him could only be the one and only one God. He was followed by his nephew F. P. Sozzini (1539- 1604). In 1562 he published a work on St. John's Gospel denying the divinity of Jesus. In 1578 he went to Klausonburg in Transylvania whose ruler John Sigisumud was against the doctrine of Trinity. Here Bishop Francis David (1510-1579) was fiercely anti-Trinitarian. This led to the formation of a sect known as Racovian Catechism. It derives its name from Racow in Poland. This city became the stronghold of the faith of Arius.
Among the present-day Christians a large number of men and women still believe in one God. They are not always vocal. Due to the crushing power of the Churches they cannot express themselves and there is not much communication between them.
In the end it will be of interest to quote Athanasius the champion of Trinity. He says that whenever he forced his understanding to meditate on the divinity of Jesus his toilsome and unavailing efforts recoil on themselves, that the more he wrote the less capable was he of expressing his thoughts. At another place he pronounces his creed as:- There are not three but "ONE GOD".




Thank you for building a case off a selective quote. The answer is a matter of chronology.That is what He said at the *start* of of Mission, since He came first to the lost sheep of Israel. This is what He said at His resurrection:
I rather think that is exactly what you do, selectively quote:

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Matthew 28: 19-20
a nice pious forgery, which am I to believe from your resilient bibles as per the actual title of this thread? I fear any subtraction or addendum is rather cementing the very point you are arguing against!

You doubt what you imagine us to believe.
Rather you can't hold a solid story together.. but I do like your moxie.. you need to overcompensate somehow and this is a good a method as any!

all the best
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
You don't remember because there was no Muslim scholar that taught St Thomas.
A few paragraphs ago, Muslims had no interest in philosophy and as the thread evolved not only have you learned that, it was the very thing fought against by papal order, and another post later you've learned that your Thomas 'the only fellow you could name' was actually influenced by Islamic philosophy rather than Greek ones.. I understand you like it all by a metered dose, it is too much too take in all at once, after all the very crux of your argument is crumbling before everyone's eye.. rather I'll leave it to everyone's discretion to decide who is telling the truth!

Who is this singular man? And I don't despise anyone, despite our disagreements.
see above, as for whether or not you do or don't despise, again, something to be left to public discernment, your delusory words are then incongruous with your personal affect, we can only work with the bull **** you spew here not what you feel on the inside.. Either way, understand please that it makes no difference to me whatsoever.


You have a habit for being careless with words, and even making things up. Why don't you quote me where I said no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together.
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Historically Christians were the ones who appreciated reason and philosophy, while Muslims largely rejected it (Compare and contrast Thomas Aquinas to Al-Ghazzali.)
come on, it wasn't one page ago, did you want me to re-quote is so you can tell me what you really meant by it as if there are multiple meanings?

please man give me a break, I really have no time to descend to word play with you!


Apparently you are.
No, it really is just you!

feel free to comment on the large excerpts I have quoted as well not just selective replies to matters you feel you can spin around and pretty up!

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Bring the hadith from a reputable Muslim site, not from your stealth crusade, I fear your words are worth as much as two dollar bill!
You're missing the point. There are differences among Sahih hadith, but that doesn't mean the event described never happened.


Enjoy!

Barnabas was a Jew born in Cyrus...
Your lengthy quote doesn't answer the question, unless you're trying to suggest the followers of Barnabas didn't believe Jesus was crucified? If that's what you're claiming you better bring your proof.

a nice pious forgery, which am I to believe from your resilient bibles as per the actual title of this thread? I fear any subtraction or addendum is rather cementing the very point you are arguing against!
It's only a pious forgery because it contradicts your view. The fact is if Jesus never made such a command, the Apostles would have never ventured outside of Judea to preach the Gospel.

Rather you can't hold a solid story together.. but I do like your moxie.. you need to overcompensate somehow and this is a good a method as any!
You doubt what you imagine us to believe. You doubted the priesthood because you imagined it a Christian invention. You did not even know that from Moses to the time of Jesus, the Jews had a Divinely instituted Priesthood, and if you did not know that basic element of Old Testament Judaism, it is no wonder you feel confident in your deen.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
You're missing the point. There are differences among Sahih hadith, but that doesn't mean the event described never happened.
What exactly is your point?


Your lengthy quote doesn't answer the question, unless you're trying to suggest the followers of Barnabas didn't believe Jesus was crucified? If that's what you're claiming you better bring your proof.
I don't think you read it at all, you asked for one group that didn't worship Jesus and if you'd actually read it, you'd have come across this:

up to the 4th century A.D. there existed a sect known as Hypisistarians who refused to worship God as father. They revered Him as an All Mighty Ruler of the world, He was the Highest of all and no one was equal to Him!
You can't keep making requests and then bury your head in the sand when presented with them!



It's only a pious forgery because it contradicts your view. The fact is if Jesus never made such a command, the Apostles would have never ventured outside of Judea to preach the Gospel.
Again, which is correct, that he was only sent to the Jews as per your bible or that he is sent for all, also as per your bible?



You doubt what you imagine us to believe. You doubted the priesthood because you imagined it a Christian invention. You did not even know that from Moses to the time of Jesus, the Jews had a Divinely instituted Priesthood, and if you did not know that basic element of Old Testament Judaism, it is no wonder you feel confident in your deen.
rather I knew from jews that I went to under grad with, that is it something that many of them denounce.. the only person retracting comments here is you.. either way, I really see no point, given that the Jews would rather stay Jewish, in other words, what you think Christianity fulfilled, they find rather laughable. We also see that jesus was supposed to enforce their laws not do away with them, and it seems that he has done away with said laws not directly but through charlatans like paul, and when he died apparently even the apostles were confused about their purpose after his departure, you have peter denouncing him as per Jesus' prediction and three times, do these look like the sort of credible people that should go out there and preach messages to the gentiles?

Again, just give me a break, I have no interest in spending my weekend in replies back to asinine stories and allegations!

all the best
Reply

Uthman
10-03-2009, 04:45 PM
Does anybody have anything more to say about the authenticity of the Bible? If not, it may be time to close this thread. :)
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 04:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
A few paragraphs ago, Muslims had no interest in philosophy and as the thread evolved not only have you learned that,
You originally claimed:
"just a couple of posts ago you alleged no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together"

I never said such a thing and asked you to quote me (which you did not do.) Instead you now claim I said Muslims had no interest in philosophy, which I never said. I suppose it's futile to ask you to quote me saying either of statement to prove you're not a careless reader?

and another post later you've learned that your Thomas 'the only fellow you could name'
More could be named, but if you knew anything about St Thomas Aquinas you would understand why his name alone more than suffices.

was actually influenced by Islamic philosophy rather than Greek ones..
St Thomas like any good scholar was open to reading the opinions of other scholars, whether they were Jews, Muslims, or other Christians. This doesn't mean he agreed with everything other scholars proposed, Averroes and Avicenna did make philosophical errors, and they proposed things contrary to Christian faith.
rather I'll leave it to everyone's discretion to decide who is telling the truth!
Ameen.
see above, as for whether or not you do or don't despise, again, something to be left to public discernment, your delusory words are then incongruous with your personal affect, we can only work with the bull **** you spew here
This coming from a person who doesn't even know the basics of Judaism and Christianity, but imagines a continuum exists.

come on, it wasn't one page ago, did you want me to re-quote is so you can tell me what you really meant by it as if there are multiple meanings?
Yes, and what do you not understand? That individual Muslims can be interested in philosophy despite vocal leaders and the community as a whole rejecting it? Do you even know the part Al-Ghazzali played in all of this?
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
Y
ou originally claimed:
"just a couple of posts ago you alleged no philosophy came from the Muslim world all together"

I never said such a thing and asked you to quote me (which you did not do.) Instead you now claim I said Muslims had no interest in philosophy, which I never said. I suppose it's futile to ask you to quote me saying either of statement to prove you're not a careless reader?
Perhaps you should browse your thesaurus, before writing, just to spare yourself the watered down related derivative with each subsequent post, you are one dynamo of a hyperbole!


More could be named, but if you knew anything about St Thomas Aquinas you would understand why his name alone more than suffices.
Oh yes, all those so great they need not be mentioned! I got you! ;D


St Thomas like any good scholar was open to reading the opinions of other scholars, whether they were Jews, Muslims, or other Christians. This doesn't mean he agreed with everything other scholars proposed, Averroes and Avicenna did make philosophical errors, and they proposed things contrary to Christian faith.
A good scholar is a pioneer not of equivocal position.
making a mistake and having a different point of view are two different things, again, I'd work on my definitions before I make my next declamatory statement!


This coming from a person who doesn't even know the basics of Judaism and Christianity, but imagines a continuum exists.
And I ask you, if christianity fulfilled the laws of Judaism why are there still Jews in the world? It is really relatively simple. and for the last I'd refrain from speaking on behalf of the Jews as far as their religion is concerned.



Yes, and what do you not understand? That individual Muslims can be interested in philosophy despite vocal leaders and the community as a whole rejecting it? Do you even know the part Al-Ghazzali played in all of this?
It is rather the other way around, One individual christian was interested in borrowed philosophy and at the end of the day gained nothing as he still died a paganist!

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 05:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
What exactly is your point?
The point is even if all aspects surrounding an event don't agree, it doesn't mean the event never occurred. If this was the case, we can throw away a tremendous amount of sahih hadith.

I don't think you read it at all, you asked for one group that didn't worship Jesus and if you'd actually read it, you'd have come across this:
So you think the Hypisistarians were a Christian sect? Wow. Why don't save yourself the trouble of easily being refuted by simply reading more about something before posting.
Again, which is correct, that he was only sent to the Jews as per your bible or that he is sent for all, also as per your bible?
Are you really having a hard time understanding this? At the beginning of Jesus' message He sent his Apostles to the Jews, they were the first to receive the Gospel, but the message was meant for all mankind. At the close of His public mission, prior to His ascension, He commanded His apostles to preach to the whole world.

rather I knew from jews that I went to under grad with, that is it something that many of them denounce.. the only person retracting comments here is you..
Again, denouncing is not the same as it never existing. The Aaronite and Levitical Priesthood came into existence by Divine command. Any Jew who denounces it doesn't follow the Torah.

We also see that jesus was supposed to enforce their laws not do away with them,
At the start of Jesus' mission the Mosaic law was still in effect, but it would only last "until everything was accomplished."

and it seems that he has done away with said laws not directly but through charlatans like paul,
Like so many things you are ignorant of, you're unaware it was the Apostles as a community who decided that Gentiles need not embrace Judaic law. I know Muslims like to say Paul was some renegade preacher, but any study of the man shows such an opinion is untenable.

and when he died apparently even the apostles were confused about their purpose after his departure,
Where do you get this from? And Paul was martyred, btw, most people would not die for a lie.

you have peter denouncing him as per Jesus' prediction and three times, do these look like the sort of credible people that should go out there and preach messages to the gentiles?
They showed weakness during the ministry of Christ, but it is God who preserves his teaching, and Christ promised to be with His Church till the end of the world. Many of the Apostles and early Christians suffered the most excruciating forms of death, only the Grace of God could give them the strength to suffer as they did. Peter for example was condemned to crucifixion, but he felt so unworthy to die as Christ did, that he requested he be crucified upside down.


Wa salaam
Reply

Sojourn
10-03-2009, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Perhaps you should browse your thesaurus, before writing...
In other words, you can't prove you're not a careless reader.

A good scholar is a pioneer not of equivocal position.
making a mistake and having a different point of view are two different things, again, I'd work on my definitions before I make my next declamatory statement!
The point is the Scholastics took what was useful and left what was wrong. They didn't simply mirror everything they read. St Thomas was not an Averroist, but he was familiar with Averroes' writings, there's a difference.
And I ask you, if christianity fulfilled the laws of Judaism why are there still Jews in the world? It is really relatively simple.
For the same reason why you believe there are Jews and Christians despite Muhammad being the seal of prophethood.

and for the last I'd refrain from speaking on behalf of the Jews as far as their religion is concerned.
For Christians its not haram or makrooh to read the previous inspired works, and that is what I'm commenting on. I'm not making an outrageous claim by saying the Priesthood was an integral part to Old Testament Judaism, any more than saying directing salat towards Mecca is integral to Islam.
It is rather the other way around, One individual christian was interested in borrowed philosophy and at the end of the day gained nothing as he still died a paganist!
You like to comment on things you know little about, oh well... shrugs

all the best
Wa salaam
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
The point is even if all aspects surrounding an event don't agree, it doesn't mean the event never occurred. If this was the case, we can throw away a tremendous amount of sahih hadith.
How many times must I write this out?
Bring your allegations from a reputable Islamic site, I am not interested in your opinion!

So you think the Hypisistarians were a Christian sect? Wow. Why don't save yourself the trouble of easily being refuted by simply reading more about something before posting.
I have indeed read about them.. what is your point?


Are you really having a hard time understanding this? At the beginning of Jesus' message He sent his Apostles to the Jews, they were the first to receive the Gospel, but the message was meant for all mankind. At the close of His public mission, prior to His ascension, He commanded His apostles to preach to the whole world.
There is nothing to understand, it isn't a mathematical equation, there is a confirmation per your bible that Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and a pious addendum to go after the gentiles and corrupt them into man worship too.The Jews didn't buy it, but the gentiles substituted Hercules and Zeus for Jesus and God, although admittedly before they didn't have to have the stretch that they were one in the same.. got to keep their pagan rituals and holidays, so it wasn't all that difficult to change except to completely subdue their logic, and let go of whatever enlightenment their complete paganism afforded them for the stringent absurdity of Christianity! as a result they experienced their darkest period of history, until they realized that religion and politics don't mix and then shelved the man/god fiasco on some shelf to be visited like a neat relic on occasion two or three times a year!

Again, denouncing is not the same as it never existing. The Aaronite and Levitical Priesthood came into existence by Divine command. Any Jew who denounces it doesn't follow the Torah.
I can be game with that.. say they keep the laws of the Torah, how does this reconcile with the fact that they don't buy into your religion? still no answer for that?


At the start of Jesus' mission the Mosaic law was still in effect, but it would only last "until everything was accomplished."
what is everything? denouncing the commandments and a carte Blanche to sin on the account that god ate the sins in advance?


Like so many things you are ignorant of, you're unaware it was the Apostles as a community who decided that Gentiles need not embrace Judaic law. I know Muslims like to say Paul was some renegade preacher, but any study of the man shows such an opinion is untenable.
I don't need to be versed in your religion, it doesn't offer me anything, and it doesn't change the fact of the matter, such events occurred and said events aren't in concert with the laws of the OT nor does it enforce or fulfill them. You don't a PhD in bull **** to figure that out.. simple logic will avail you!


Where do you get this from? And Paul was martyred, btw, most people would not die for a lie.
sure they would, why not? All you need is convictions in what you are doing. Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg were 'Martyred' for what they believed in. All you need is a point of view!



They showed weakness during the ministry of Christ, but it is God who preserves his teaching, and Christ promised to be with His Church till the end of the world. Many of the Apostles and early Christians suffered the most excruciating forms of death, only the Grace of God could give them the strength to suffer as they did. Peter for example was condemned to crucifixion, but he felt so unworthy to die as Christ did, that he requested he be crucified upside down.
This is all filler and is inconsequential to the facts of the matter!
dreams and promises have no bearing on what actually takes place and has taken place since!

all the best


Wa salaam[/QUOTE]
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
In other words, you can't prove you're not a careless reader.
Rather you have no forethought to what you write and have nothing of substance to impart when presented with your own bull a post or two later!


The point is the Scholastics took what was useful and left what was wrong. They didn't simply mirror everything they read. St Thomas was not an Averroist, but he was familiar with Averroes' writings, there's a difference.
Again, you need to familiarize yourself with 'wrong' vs. 'different'
one has to do with fallacy and the other, personal convictions. Personal convictions has little to do with logic!


For the same reason why you believe there are Jews and Christians despite Muhammad being the seal of prophethood.
and what reason might that be?


For Christians its not haram or makrooh to read the previous inspired works, and that is what I'm commenting on. I'm not making an outrageous claim by saying the Priesthood was an integral part to Old Testament Judaism, any more than saying directing salat towards Mecca is integral to Islam.
and I have already told you, I can be game with that, but how does it reconcile with Jews not buying into your brand of priesthood and remaining on the laws of Moses?

You like to comment on things you know little about, oh well... shrugs
Perhaps the problem is you like to engage in topics you later can't seem to extricate yourself out of without falling into a self made trap?


Wa salaam
aslaam 3la ahel aslaam
Reply

Uthman
10-03-2009, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
Does anybody have anything more to say about the authenticity of the Bible? If not, it may be time to close this thread. :)
Clearly, it's time to close this thread.

:threadclo
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