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Thinker
07-23-2009, 09:49 AM
I started on my study of Islam some time back with many questions some of which remains unanswered.

The Muslims that set off the bombs in London and the other Muslims who kill, why are they doing that, what is their grievance and what do they hope to achieve?
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Zafran
07-23-2009, 05:31 PM
The same thing what america is trying to achieve by bombing Iraq or the Taliban to death.
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AntiKarateKid
07-23-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I started on my study of Islam some time back with many questions some of which remains unanswered.

The Muslims that set off the bombs in London and the other Muslims who kill, why are they doing that, what is their grievance and what do they hope to achieve?
Allah has promised that Islam will conquer all other religions. This is their goal and I agree that it will. But their methodology is wrong. In response to cecades of cultural imperialism and political manipulation they take up arms against whoever disagrees with them in an attempt to reestablish the dominance of Muslims. Like I said though, their methodology is wrong.

Allah doesn't change the condition of a people until they change themselves. Muslims have allowed distorted interpretations of Islam to hinder their growth and caused disunity. This along witht he fact that Muslims are not spending enough time BEING Muslim (charity, good deeds, promoting unity etc).

These guys respond in a hotblooded fashion against those they see as disagreeing with their interpretation of Islam when in reality we need to first correct ourselves before attempting to correct the world.
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MSalman
07-23-2009, 05:56 PM
assuming that these things were actually done by Muslims - I know some will say that this is not part of Islam and it is a valid point; however, let us focus on the solution for this problem:
1 - Get out of our lands - stop mascaraing our brothers and sisters or support those who do that. We do not want you to clean our countries from terrorism or introduce your corrupt democratic system. We are capable of dealing with our own people.

2 - Stop supporting our corrupt leaders and interfering in our politics.

3 - If you do not like what Islam says then no one is asking you to like it and you do not automatically get some kind of right to enforce your way onto us - we do not need your corrupt teachings or methodology. It has already done enough damage to our societies. So stop forcing it down our throats.

so simply put: get off our faces and leave us alone!
Until west does not change its foreign policy, you can least expect something in return - whether valid or invalid is a different story.
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GuestFellow
07-23-2009, 06:45 PM
Well they commit terrorist activities because they want to give a message to the government. When the government refuse to listen to the public or a minority, they might use violence to gain attention. These people could be seen as a pressure group though their methodology is wrong and disgraceful.

I'm not entirely sure what they are hoping to achieve either, but I do believe they want to send a message to the government. The London bombings might have happened due to Iraq and Afghanistan war. If the Iraq and Afghanistan war did not take place, I highly doubt the London bombings would have taken place. The wars started due to poor foreign policy. That should be addressed and reformed...

Another reason why these terrorist activities might occur due to force and establish Islam, throughout the world. Though I'm finding it hard to find the distinction between terrorists who want to establish Islam world wide or the terrorist taking drastic action due to wars against Muslim countries.

I get the feeling more wars are going to take place due to poor foreign policy. America labelled Iran, Syria, Libya, Cuba and North Korea, as the Axis of Evil. Not a very good way of maintaining healthy relationship with other countries. More wars might equal more terrorism.

:hmm:
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Thinker
07-23-2009, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by islamiclife
assuming that these things were actually done by Muslims - I know some will say that this is not part of Islam and it is a valid point; however, let us focus on the solution for this problem:
1 - Get out of our lands - stop mascaraing our brothers and sisters or support those who do that. We do not want you to clean our countries from terrorism or introduce your corrupt democratic system. We are capable of dealing with our own people.

2 - Stop supporting our corrupt leaders and interfering in our politics.

3 - If you do not like what Islam says then no one is asking you to like it and you do not automatically get some kind of right to enforce your way onto us - we do not need your corrupt teachings or methodology. It has already done enough damage to our societies. So stop forcing it down our throats.

so simply put: get off our faces and leave us alone!
Until west does not change its foreign policy, you can least expect something in return - whether valid or invalid is a different story.
On the first point you make - this is where I struggle to understand, when you say “get out of our lands” you appear to be saying that there are lands (countries) which are your (Muslim) lands and that those setting off bombs and the like are doing it because we (westerners/kafirs) are in those lands. Do you/they take the view that countries can be divided into Muslim countries and non Muslim countries?
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Cabdullahi
07-23-2009, 07:01 PM
Let me throw a question at you if you dont mind We've been answering your often awkward and wayward questions for sometime

The Totalitarian governments that set off the drones and phosphorus bombs in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq the other Westerners who kill, why are they doing that, what is their grievance and what do they hope to achieve?

Thank you
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Eric H
07-23-2009, 08:32 PM
Gretings and peace be with you Thinker;

On the first point you make - this is where I struggle to understand, when you say “get out of our lands” you appear to be saying that there are lands (countries) which are your (Muslim) lands
In a similar way you might say that Britain and America are Christian countries, even though I believe they are very much secular in nature.

Iraq could be regarded as an Islamic country, and I firmly believe America and Britain have no right to be there. I disagree with the invasion of Afghanistan, although it could be argued very loosely that we were justified to invade.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people, despite all our differences.

Eric
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Thinker
07-23-2009, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
Let me throw a question at you if you dont mind We've been answering your often awkward and wayward questions for sometime

The Totalitarian governments that set off the drones and phosphorus bombs in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq the other Westerners who kill, why are they doing that, what is their grievance and what do they hope to achieve?

Thank you
In answer to that question I, being neither Palestinian or Jew, whole heartedly condemn both Jews and Hamas for indiscriminate killing or for that matter any killings. I would not condone any acts of violence in support of either side. I accept that if I were a Jew or a Palestinian I might feel differently but I am not. Are you Palestinian if not can I presume your answer would be the same as mine?
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Zafran
07-23-2009, 11:21 PM
I accept that if I were a Jew or a Palestinian I might feel differently but I am not. Are you Palestinian if not can I presume your answer would be the same as mine?
You mean palestinains and hamas are 2 different things - so are Jews and Isreal/pro zionists.

the palestine issue is taken seriously by muslims - just like the zionists and Isreal.
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Zafran
07-23-2009, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
On the first point you make - this is where I struggle to understand, when you say “get out of our lands” you appear to be saying that there are lands (countries) which are your (Muslim) lands and that those setting off bombs and the like are doing it because we (westerners/kafirs) are in those lands. Do you/they take the view that countries can be divided into Muslim countries and non Muslim countries?
This is an easy thing to understand - how would you like a saudi militery base in London - or an Iraqi Airfield in Glasgow or a one next door to your house.

when they say “get out of our lands” - its means get your tanks, soldiers, bombers and fighters out of our brothers and sisters lands - you have no right just like the Saudis dont have a right being in wales with there bombers.

Iraq and Afganishtan are good examples although not the only ones if we bring the US into it - its been a sick joke for a long time - its about time it stopped some day.

The main reason why the "west" is being attacked and hated

1 - militery bases (as stated above).
2 - unconditional support for Isreal by the US - They dont play fair so its hard for the palestinains to.
3 - impose the wests views on the mid east even if it means by force
4 - supporting tyrants.

All the garbage the media feeds about "extremists" is all bogus - if you sort the above problems out - the world will be a better place and less hypocritical.
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MSalman
07-24-2009, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
On the first point you make - this is where I struggle to understand, when you say “get out of our lands” you appear to be saying that there are lands (countries) which are your (Muslim) lands and that those setting off bombs and the like are doing it because we (westerners/kafirs) are in those lands. Do you/they take the view that countries can be divided into Muslim countries and non Muslim countries?
1. Yes. that is exactly what I'm saying. there are our lands just as there are your lands. No one says that America is "Muslim" land. Everyone accepts that America is "non Muslim" land. So what is problematic to understand about something so inevitably true

2. And yes, I am claiming that the reason why those bombs and killings are occurring is because non Muslims are in our lands militarily. The ultimate FACT that proves this, is the fact that none of this terrorism stuff ever became a common practice until a hegemonic complex began to be adopted and assimilated into foreign policy in Western, particularly, American foreign policy. And more importantly, a more blatant proof in your eyes for this fact, which I am claiming, is that why the "terrorist acts" are only being targeted on Americans, and whoever are viewed as "accomplices" of the American jihad. Muslims are not targeting Australia, they are not targeting Brazil, or any other country that originally has nothing to do with intervention in our affairs. And even if they happen in some countries, most of the targets aimed in such countries are American embassies and the like. So while you may not understand how I can make this claim, we are even in more abashment and amazed at how your reasoning cannot arrive at this most logical political conclusion.

3. And finally, YES, we and they (terrorist) believe that countries can be divided by Muslim/non Muslim countries. WHY NOT. In today's world, America and its allies depict the world mainly between 2 methodological aspects: A) democratic B) Non democratic

So whats the difference. America aids and makes jihaad for the sake of democracy against those who do not incorporate democracy as a methodological form of government of creed.

The only difference between such demarcations is that America and other westernized imitators defines its demarcations within the context of a social creed of governance whereas within the Islamic context, it demarcates the world based on belief and disbelief in the existence, worship, and implementation of God and His ordainment.

the first methodology completely tries to execute the successful management of this life within the context of this life to the exclusion of the next life WHILE laying claim to a good outcome in the next life based on man made theories WHEREAS the second methodology (the Islamic one) executes the successful management of this life within the context of this life WHILE TAKING into account the next life as a religious reality that is NOT based on man made theories, but based on definitive knowledge from the One who enforced our bodies to feel weakness after a certain amount of time of being awake and the One who enforced our bodies to deteriorate after a certain amount of time within this life, an the One who created necessary properties for the earth to maintain its luscious products and for each celestial object to maintain its proper course.

Like I said before in another thread: If you want to understand Islam and Muslims then you will have understand the differences between our methodologies and ponder upon the differences; we operate on complete different ideologies - our differences are like the difference between the sky and the earth. Until that does not happen, we will be running in circles without any thing being solved or reaching any conclusion.
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Thinker
07-24-2009, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
This is an easy thing to understand - how would you like a saudi militery base in London - or an Iraqi Airfield in Glasgow or a one next door to your house.
Correct me is I am wrong but didn’t the tanks etc., go into Muslim lands after 9/11?

Originally Posted by Zafran
when they say “get out of our lands” - its means get your tanks, soldiers, bombers and fighters out of our brothers and sisters lands - you have no right just like the Saudis dont have a right being in wales with there bombers.
I carry a British passport which come with a demand that all those to whom it is presented allow me free and unhindered passage with the implied threat that if I the bearer of the passport is harmed those harming me will answer to the British armed forces. For that reason alone, I would be duty bound to fight with our armed forces against any another country which attacked or occupied my country. But that said, what’s that got to do with the question as your land and the land of those setting off the bombs in London on 7/7 carried the same passport. Their land was not occupied or under attack because their land, the land where they were born and chose to live was Britain (dar-al-kafir).

If they felt that their allegiance lay in another coutry, would the honoroable thing not be to have gone there, taken the passport of that country and fight those occupying that country?
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GuestFellow
07-24-2009, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Correct me is I am wrong but didn’t the tanks etc., go into Muslim lands after 9/11?
Did Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? Why did America invade Iraq?
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Thinker
07-24-2009, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by islamiclife
1. Yes. that is exactly what I'm saying. there are our lands just as there are your lands. No one says that America is "Muslim" land. Everyone accepts that America is "non Muslim" land. So what is problematic to understand about something so inevitably true

2. And yes, I am claiming that the reason why those bombs and killings are occurring is because non Muslims are in our lands militarily. The ultimate FACT that proves this, is the fact that none of this terrorism stuff ever became a common practice until a hegemonic complex began to be adopted and assimilated into foreign policy in Western, particularly, American foreign policy. And more importantly, a more blatant proof in your eyes for this fact, which I am claiming, is that why the "terrorist acts" are only being targeted on Americans, and whoever are viewed as "accomplices" of the American jihad. Muslims are not targeting Australia, they are not targeting Brazil, or any other country that originally has nothing to do with intervention in our affairs. And even if they happen in some countries, most of the targets aimed in such countries are American embassies and the like. So while you may not understand how I can make this claim, we are even in more abashment and amazed at how your reasoning cannot arrive at this most logical political conclusion.

3. And finally, YES, we and they (terrorist) believe that countries can be divided by Muslim/non Muslim countries. WHY NOT. In today's world, America and its allies depict the world mainly between 2 methodological aspects: A) democratic B) Non democratic

So whats the difference. America aids and makes jihaad for the sake of democracy against those who do not incorporate democracy as a methodological form of government of creed.

The only difference between such demarcations is that America and other westernized imitators defines its demarcations within the context of a social creed of governance whereas within the Islamic context, it demarcates the world based on belief and disbelief in the existence, worship, and implementation of God and His ordainment.

the first methodology completely tries to execute the successful management of this life within the context of this life to the exclusion of the next life WHILE laying claim to a good outcome in the next life based on man made theories WHEREAS the second methodology (the Islamic one) executes the successful management of this life within the context of this life WHILE TAKING into account the next life as a religious reality that is NOT based on man made theories, but based on definitive knowledge from the One who enforced our bodies to feel weakness after a certain amount of time of being awake and the One who enforced our bodies to deteriorate after a certain amount of time within this life, an the One who created necessary properties for the earth to maintain its luscious products and for each celestial object to maintain its proper course.

Like I said before in another thread: If you want to understand Islam and Muslims then you will have understand the differences between our methodologies and ponder upon the differences; we operate on complete different ideologies - our differences are like the difference between the sky and the earth. Until that does not happen, we will be running in circles without any thing being solved or reaching any conclusion.
If Muslims subscribe to the view you set out here, would the solution then be for all Muslims to live in Muslim countries and all non-Muslims live in non-Muslim countries? And is it not the case that Muhammad foresaw this problem and commanded that Muslims must not live amongst the muskreen?

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): “In what (condition) were you?” They reply: “We were weak and oppressed on the earth.” They (angels) say: “Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?” Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination! Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way. These are they whom Allaah is likely to forgive them, and Allaah is Ever Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving” [al-Nisaa’ 4:97-99]
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Thinker
07-24-2009, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Did Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? Why did America invade Iraq?
Because they had a stupid President.
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GuestFellow
07-24-2009, 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Because they had a stupid President.
George Bush was a stupid President. Shall we go to war with America and kill all the innocent civillians?
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Thinker
07-24-2009, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
George Bush was a stupid President. Shall we go to war with America and kill all the innocent civillians?
The invasion of Iraq has helped the cause of Muslims fundamentalists and done nothing to help the west's quest for stability and peace; that's why it was stupid and in the same way setting off bombs killing innocent people helps the cause of those that hate Islam.
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Zafran
07-25-2009, 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Correct me is I am wrong but didn’t the tanks etc., go into Muslim lands after 9/11?



I carry a British passport which come with a demand that all those to whom it is presented allow me free and unhindered passage with the implied threat that if I the bearer of the passport is harmed those harming me will answer to the British armed forces. For that reason alone, I would be duty bound to fight with our armed forces against any another country which attacked or occupied my country. But that said, what’s that got to do with the question as your land and the land of those setting off the bombs in London on 7/7 carried the same passport. Their land was not occupied or under attack because their land, the land where they were born and chose to live was Britain (dar-al-kafir).

If they felt that their allegiance lay in another coutry, would the honoroable thing not be to have gone there, taken the passport of that country and fight those occupying that country?
They have been there far longer then 9/11 - history does not start at 9/11.


Intresting you use the word "choose" - a lot of people dont have the choice of what country they are born in and second of all nobody follows there country blindly - if you do then expect to get in a mess - I got a british passport free just because i was born in the UK.

Some people take the suffering of other seriously even though you dont. If you think that might is right then once again you will get in a mess - Just a matter of time before someone uses yout own ways against you.

You need to look far deeper then 9/11 and 7/7 - the west isnt some sort of saint world - you could easily argue its the biggest terroist empire. You just gave a great example - that if you got hurt - your British passport will unleash hell on the other people - eye for an eye - they hurt you so your going to send an army down - very similar how the terrorist think.

Lastly all this garbage about dar ul Kafir realy has zero meaning - you with your british passport are looking at the world like dar ul Kafir - like the so called terrorists - someone kills you - you will kill them also - Thats realy going to make the world a better place:rollseyes

Your post does not give you a higher moral ground what so ever.
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Zafran
07-25-2009, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
The invasion of Iraq has helped the cause of Muslims fundamentalists and done nothing to help the west's quest for stability and peace; that's why it was stupid and in the same way setting off bombs killing innocent people helps the cause of those that hate Islam.
you realy think they went there for "stability and peace" -

reasons
1 - WMDS - this is a lie
2 - killing a saddam - thats done
3 - impose western values on the people by force.

we all know the real reason - its not realy a moral one. If it was most of the governmets in the mid east would have been overthrown by now.
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MSalman
07-30-2009, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
If Muslims subscribe to the view you set out here, would the solution then be for all Muslims to live in Muslim countries and all non-Muslims live in non-Muslim countries?
no, I did not say this or implied. I am simply saying that there lands of kuffaar (yours) and there are lands of Muslim (ours): you rule in those lands and we rule in our lands.

Originally Posted by Thinker
And is it not the case that Muhammad foresaw this problem and commanded that Muslims must not live amongst the muskreen?
not exactly, this issue is more broader than you simply put it. Frankly, it is out of my scope.
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