Subhanallah how a christian reveals themselves to be false!

[Azad]

While i was reading a topic called "isthe bible wrong".

Around page 5 a member called Jenny (who is a christian) said something that caught my attention.
I dont know if anyone mentioned this before but heres what she said:

"It would be amusing to say,that I`m responsible for something what my ancestor from 16-th century has done."

She says this and shes a christian lol

What im trying to say is that even a Christian like herself, believe that its unfair if someone is blamed for the past mistakes of her earlier ancestor.

YET! All christian believe that they are being punished for a sin that Adam (PBUH) has done!

This is proof that some Christian dont even agree with their own religion!

May Allah protect us from being disbelievers and hypocrytes inshallah.

[Basit]

Al-salam Alaykum,

It really is amusing, as what she had said. Maybe thats what she was taught or maybe she is just one stray sheep from her flock? But i've learned one of their belief regarding this matter is that when they are born, they inherit the sins of their ancestor but it is erased upon baptism into christianity. But then in their scripture, in genesis it says there that God himself told Noah that the brethen and brethen of his younger son, who made fun of him when Noah was naked drunk, shall be punished. Now, they are nullifying this punishment of God by erasing it through baptism(as what they believe nowadays to be the one of the purpose of baptism).

I dont know much about their beliefs but i heard this is one of christian religious beliefs.

Salam!

[Trumble]

YET! All christian believe that they are being punished for a sin that Adam (PBUH) has done!

No, they don't all believe that. A great many do not, including Jenny, probably.

[gmcbroom]

Poor catechesis.

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[Tyrion]

Did you really just make a thread to single out one Christian member who might have said something wrong?

[glo]

YET! All christian believe that they are being punished for a sin that Adam (PBUH) has done!

I think you are mistaken, or at least you misunderstand the concept of 'being punished for the sins Adam has done'.

We are not being punished for the sins Adam or anybody else committed.
Instead Christians believe that human beings have inherited from Adam a tendency to do wrong and to be disobedient to God. Consequently Christians also believe that it is humanly impossible to be 'good enough by God's standards'. We can try as hard as we like, but we will always fall and fail and err - either in words, thought or deed.

I am sure that there has never been a single day in my life, when I have not done wrong in some way. No matter how hard I try!

That's why Christians believe that we cannot rely on our own strength, and that we need God's grace and mercy for our salvation.

If you are interested in further reading about the concept of Original Sin, I found these webpages for you:
http://carm.org/questions/about-doct...shed-adams-sin
http://www.gotquestions.org/parents-sin.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...nalsin_1.shtml

I have certainly found it interesting to read up on the subject and to gain a better insight into the differences in understanding of original sin.
I hope you have found it interesting too. I always find it helpful to try and understand the beliefs of others better. :)

Salaam

P.S. I just noticed how old this thread is. I doubt that the OP is still around to read it ...

Brother gmcbroom, what are your own thoughts on original sin?

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Original sin, what's with faiths and someone else sacrificing themselves for everyone else... Man, wish that would work in court.

[Hiroshi]

While i was reading a topic called "isthe bible wrong".

Around page 5 a member called Jenny (who is a christian) said something that caught my attention.
I dont know if anyone mentioned this before but heres what she said:

"It would be amusing to say,that I`m responsible for something what my ancestor from 16-th century has done."

She says this and shes a christian lol

What im trying to say is that even a Christian like herself, believe that its unfair if someone is blamed for the past mistakes of her earlier ancestor.

YET! All christian believe that they are being punished for a sin that Adam (PBUH) has done!

This is proof that some Christian dont even agree with their own religion!

May Allah protect us from being disbelievers and hypocrytes inshallah.

We are not being punished for Adam's sin. But we are suffering because of what he did. You could liken the situation to that of a mother who smokes or drinks alcohol while pregnant resulting in harm to her unborn child. The child did not do the bad things but suffers nevertheless.

[gmcbroom]

Hiroshi that is an excellent analogy. I can go one further and say that because of the ancestral sin of Adam, death entered the world. We're all bound by it regardless of ones station or wealth. Whether your a pagan, orthodox jew, christen, muslim, buddist, or atheist. All men die.

[IAmZamzam]

We are not being punished for Adam's sin. But we are suffering because of what he did. You could liken the situation to that of a mother who smokes or drinks alcohol while pregnant resulting in harm to her unborn child. The child did not do the bad things but suffers nevertheless.

The difference being that the only reason such people--or anyone--gets punished for what other people did in this world is that the people who are doing it to them (like the mother in your analogy) are not being fair, whereas God is always fair and therefore would never make anyone suffer for what another person did. According to you God is like a gym teacher who grades said child lower for inevitably performing worse than par at gym class due to his birth defects, unless someone is willing to swap their own A with his F (like that's fair).

[Perseveranze]

Hiroshi that is an excellent analogy. I can go one further and say that because of the ancestral sin of Adam, death entered the world. We're all bound by it regardless of ones station or wealth. Whether your a pagan, orthodox jew, christen, muslim, buddist, or atheist. All men die.

Peace,

What's the point of there being Satan/Jin when everyone is already naturally born evil or "with sin". You also forget that man isn't perfect, we make mistakes, are you trying to say that if we didn't "inherit" Adam(pbuh)'s sin, we would all be perfect?

[gmcbroom]

Yahya Sulaiman,
My friend God didn't do it to us Adam and Eve did when they partook of the forbidden fruit. As for removing original sin that is done through baptism.

[IAmZamzam]

Connect the dots, will you?

1. Because of Adam and Eve, we are now incapable of being as morally perfect as God requires.
2. Because of this lack of perfection we are d-a-m-nable (minus a total travesty of justice, reason, and necessity like someone volunteering to be punished for us instead, never mind that justice means either punishing or simply forgiving the actual guilty party and not an innocent one).
3. Therefore, we are d-a-m-n-able because of Adam and Eve, and not because of anything that is truly and initially our own fault.

I can't quite decide whether the doctrinal tangle of illogicality, implausibility, and immorality called Christian doctrine is the way it is due to being too poorly thought out or too thoroughly thought out.

I repeat:

According to you God is like a gym teacher who grades said child lower for inevitably performing worse than par at gym class due to his birth defects [caused by his mother's sinful habits], unless someone is willing to swap their own A with his F (like that's fair).

[Predator]

Yahya Sulaiman,
My friend God didn't do it to us Adam and Eve did when they partook of the forbidden fruit. As for removing original sin that is done through baptism.

Why did your God wait for over 6000 years after creating Adam to impregnate Mary and be born as Jesus and eat your sins ? Why didnt he immediately impregnate Eve and ""die for the sins of mankind ? What happens to all those who never heard of your sin-eating God ?

1) Why is the Christian god Unjust? (He killed an innocent sinless person for guilty sinful people).
2) Why can't the Christian god forgive people without having to kill an innocent man?
3) Why is the Christian god so hateful? (He killed his own son, let him be killed).
4) Why is the Christian god (i.e. Jesus) suicidal? (He killed himself).
5) If Jesus committed suicide doesn't that make him sinful and not sinless?
6) Why is Jesus the most sinful of all? (He took upon everyone's sins).
7) Why can't Jesus be sinful?
8) How can he not be capable of being sinful or if he was sinful can't take away his own sins, yet he can take away other people's sins?
9) Who was taken care of creation if the Christian god was dead for 3 days?
10) If Christians want Jesus to die so badly for their sins, doesn't that mean they are selfish and want him to suffer instead of them?

[gmcbroom]

Yahya Sulaiman,
Sounds like your having with the concept of Original Sin when it's effects are all to apparent even today. For Christians Baptism removes Original Sin thus restoring us. It helps bridge the gap so we can once again reach God.

[GuestFellow]

What im trying to say is that even a Christian like herself, believe that its unfair if someone is blamed for the past mistakes of her earlier ancestor.

YET! All christian believe that they are being punished for a sin that Adam (PBUH) has done!

This is proof that some Christian dont even agree with their own religion!

May Allah protect us from being disbelievers and hypocrytes inshallah.

:sl:

I think your misunderstood.

Read this.

[IAmZamzam]

Yahya Sulaiman,
Sounds like your having with the concept of Original Sin when it's effects are all to apparent even today. For Christians Baptism removes Original Sin thus restoring us. It helps bridge the gap so we can once again reach God.

Actually my problem is with the idea of God not being willing to simply forgive people and instead demanding blood be spilled instead, even if it's innocent blood, but the concept of original sin does seem part and parcel. You haven't really addressed anything I've said, by the way, you're just brushing it all off.

[gmcbroom]

Yahya Sulaiman,
I know it's difficult for you to understand. That is no fault of your own. It is a faith based issue. This is a Christian belief. As a Muslim it's not expected for you to understand or even accept it. Just know that Christians do.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

We are not being punished for the sins Adam or anybody else committed.

hi glo ; I read a convert story long ago . A Christian lady lost her newborn baby and she was told baby will be in hell as died before baptism. It means babies are sinners. It led her to became frustrated about her religion and studied Islam.

[IAmZamzam]

Yahya Sulaiman,
I know it's difficult for you to understand. That is no fault of your own. It is a faith based issue. This is a Christian belief. As a Muslim it's not expected for you to understand or even accept it. Just know that Christians do.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

Are you under the impression that I know nothing about Christianity? That I'm some hapless outsider who was raised Muslim and never really exposed to Christianity?

[glo]

Salaam/Peace



hi glo ; I read a convert story long ago . A Christian lady lost her newborn baby and she was told baby will be in hell as died before baptism. It means babies are sinners. It led her to became frustrated about her religion and studied Islam.

Thanks for sharing, Muslim Woman.
I can understand that that would lead somebody to lose faith. I think it is a Catholic belief - personally I don't believe it to be case that babies have to be baptised to be saved and enter heaven.

Although Jesus instructed us to be baptised, there is also Biblical evidence of people being forgiven and promised entry into heaven without having been baptised. The example which springs to mind is one of the criminals who died alongside Jesus on the cross. He was never a follower of Jesus, nor had he been baptised - and yet when he asked forgiveness Jesus promised that he would be in paradise with him!

[Predator]

Yahya Sulaiman,
Sounds like your having with the concept of Original Sin when it's effects are all to apparent even today. For Christians Baptism removes Original Sin thus restoring us. It helps bridge the gap so we can once again reach God.

Ypu dont need any baptism or any other ""free pass" to be saved , all you needed to do was repent from your Sins as your Lord said

{18:20} The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the
son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him,and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

{18:21} But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which
is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

{18:22} All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that
he hath done he shall live.

{18:23} Have I any pleasure atall that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Allah has sealed the hearts of these Kuffar i

Allah (swt) mentions in Surah Al Baqarah chapter 2 verses 6 and 7

"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them Whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur)." [Al-Qur’an 2:6-7]

These verses do not refer to those who are bent on rejecting the truth. It will not make any difference to such people whether you warn them or not, they will not believe. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing and on their eyes is a veil. It is not because Allah has set a seal on their hearts that these kuffar do not understand and believe, but it is the vice-versa. It is because these kuffar are bent on rejecting the truth and whether you warn them or not they will not believe, that Allah has set a seal on their hearts. Therefore Allah is not to blame, but these kuffaar who are bent on rejecting the faith are responsible.

An Example of teacher predicting a student will fail

Suppose an experienced teacher, before the final examinations, predicts that a particular student will fail in the exams, since the student is very mischievous, not attentive in class and does not do his homework. If after the student appears for the examination, he fails, who is to be blamed for the student failing: the teacher or the student? Just because the teacher predicted, it does not mean that the teacher is to be blamed but the student himself is responsible for his failure.

Similarly Allah (swt) knows in advance that there are some people who are bent on rejecting the faith and Allah has put a seal on their hearts. Thus these non-Muslims themselves are responsible for rejecting the faith and not Allah (swt).

[Hiroshi]

The difference being that the only reason such people--or anyone--gets punished for what other people did in this world is that the people who are doing it to them (like the mother in your analogy) are not being fair, whereas God is always fair and therefore would never make anyone suffer for what another person did. According to you God is like a gym teacher who grades said child lower for inevitably performing worse than par at gym class due to his birth defects, unless someone is willing to swap their own A with his F (like that's fair).

God immediately arranged for a way that any of Adam's offspring could be redeemed despite inherited imperfection (Genesis 3:15).

[Hiroshi]

Salaam/Peace



hi glo ; I read a convert story long ago . A Christian lady lost her newborn baby and she was told baby will be in hell as died before baptism. It means babies are sinners. It led her to became frustrated about her religion and studied Islam.

Sorry to hear this story. Infant baptism was not practiced by Christians in the beginning. It is wrong and has nothing to do with hell. The woman's baby has died but will be resurrected from death into life in paradise.

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi that is an excellent analogy. I can go one further and say that because of the ancestral sin of Adam, death entered the world. We're all bound by it regardless of ones station or wealth. Whether your a pagan, orthodox jew, christen, muslim, buddist, or atheist. All men die.

Thank you. Romans 5:12 is a good scripture to show this.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

...Infant baptism was not practiced by Christians in the beginning. .

since when it started ?

[glo]

Salaam/Peace



since when it started ?

Muslim Woman, I don't know when exactly people started to baptise infants, but we have had discussions around christening (the baptism of infants) in my church recently (which is an Anglican church).
I was asking the same question, because in my mind somebody can only truly enter into a faith, when s/he is old enough to make an informed and educated choice (which small children aren't).

Our vicar explained that the early church started out as adult converts to Christianity (just like in Muhammad's days people became adult reverts to Islam).
As the Christian movement grew and people married within the faith and had children, the issue raised itself as to how to welcome children into the faith.
So a decision was made to baptise children when they were little.

How and when the idea developed that non-baptised children were doomed to hell I don't really know. As I explained earlier I personally don't believe that to be the case, and I see Biblical evidence of Jesus saying otherwise.

To return back to the christening of children, I personally see it more as an opportunity for the parents to dedicate their child to God and for the parents, the Godparents and the whole Christian congregation to make a commitment to teach the child about the Christian faith.
A proper commitment to the faith can only be made by the person him/herself, once s/he is old enough to chose.

Personally, I'm in favour of adult baptisms.
I was christened when I was a baby, but when I made a deliberate and willing commitment to follow Christ I chose to have an adult baptism as a symbol of my decision. I found that much more meaningful.

(I use the term 'personally' a lot in this post, because I am aware that other Christians may have slightly different views.)

[IAmZamzam]

God immediately arranged for a way that any of Adam's offspring could be redeemed despite inherited imperfection (Genesis 3:15).

But said way is totally unnecessary. Watch how easy it is to forgive someone: "I forgive you." POOF! No crucifixion necessary. And I'm not even omnipotent.

[gmcbroom]

Yahya Sulaiman,
As usual your wit impresses me. However, In this case from the Christian view at least forgiving someone verbally,is a good first step but only God can forgive sins. For you that God is Allah alone. For Christians it's The Father and the Son Jesus.

Muslim Woman,
I'm sorry that she suffered such a loss. Now for some rather interesting information.
Infant Baptism has been around since the Beginning of the Church. For those with a Bible please read the following. Luke 18:15-16, Acts 2:38-39, Acts 16:33, 1 Cor 1:16.
In the Catholic Church there are Eastern Churches and the Western Church. 22 distinct ritualistic churches which united together are Catholic. Infant Baptism is still practiced in the Catholic Church the only difference between the Eastern and Western Churches lies in what it entails. If your a baby and baptized in the Eatsern Church you receive the baptism, and your confirmed so you can start to receive the Holy Eucharist. However, in the Western Church while they are baptized they are not confirmed until around the age of reason so they don't receive the Eucharist until their confirmation.
Regrettably, when the Reformation ocurred and the Protestant Churches came into being, some did not have, or even outright rejected some of these Early Catholic teachings. That's why there is so much confusion on the issue of Infant Baptism and others.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[IAmZamzam]

Of course only God can forgive sins. That's not the issue. The question is whether His forgiveness is actual forgiveness, instead of just finding another party but ourselves to take His anger out on and calling that forgiveness.

[Predator]

Its absurd that Christians believe that everyone is born a sinner. Everyone is born condemned and the only way to redeem yourself is that you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Is that really fair? I mean you are born condemned from the beginning. So even a poor innocent baby that is newly born is a sinner. If that baby does not redeem itself by putting its faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and dies then the poor baby is condemned to hell. How can you expect a baby that cannot comprehend or think to accept Jesus as its Lord? What if the poor baby dies before it grows up to become able to rationalize and accept a religion. What about a mentally retarded person that cannot think for him self? He is a sinner by nature and will be doomed to Hell for not recognizing Jesus as Lord and Savior simply because his mind cannot!
Unlike Islam, which is a just religion does not teach original sin. Islam teaches that everyone is born pure and it is us who corrupt our selves. Islam gives the Muslims time to grow up and be able to use our rationality and reason in order to choose a religion.
This time is the age of puberty.
Puberty is the age when people begin to use their reason and distinguish between what is right and wrong.
10-12 years of age marks the phase of reasoning (ratiocination) with a sense of critic to the instinctive activities and reflexive activities.
What about the madman? Is he also a sinner? According to original sin he is. How can God condemn a madman who cannot use his reason and be able to make a rational decision? Truly this is unjust. Islam does not hold these kind of people accountable.
　
Where does the Bible say that the sole or main purpose of Jesus was to undo what Adam had done?
John 1:29
The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.
Prophets are sent by God to be examples of the message they have brought. Prophets are sent to bring mankind on the right path and to lead them away from a sinful life. Therefore, Jesus takes away the sins of the people by guiding them and showing them the right path. Secondly, Jesus never says such a thing, it is John who does so.
Rom. 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Rom. 5:19
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,..."
These verses say that due to the sin of Adam, death arises. Not eternal death but death in the world. This is the appropriate interpretation; otherwise, there is a contradiction with the following verses:
Jer. 31:29-30
"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."
Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(Deuteronomy 24:16)
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
The death being talked about is the death in this world and not punishment in hell.
Prov.20:9
"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?"
The way to cleanse oneself from sin to clean one’s heart and not to believe in crucifixion or Trinity.
　
It is surprising that such a huge concept of Christians, 'Original Sin' has no mention in the bible.
　

　

Islam does not teach that we are born condemned sinners and It does not place the blame on Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin. We are supposed to learn that it is human nature to sin and that the devil is going to try and trick us into committing sin just like how he did with our fore parents. Then after we sin we do like our fore parents did and then turn to God in sincere repentance. So this is a lesson of original forgiveness and not original sin. If we sin, then it is our fault and not our fore parents fault. God does not create us as sinners. He creates us pure and then it is us who sin and make our selves impure.

[Hiroshi]

The death being talked about is the death in this world and not punishment in hell.

The Bible does not teach that you have an immortal soul that can burn in hell forever. It teaches that the dead may receive a resurrection.

[gmcbroom]

Since we're talking Abraham.

John 8:39-44 ," They answered and said to him," Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them," If your were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works of Abraham." But, now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God; Abraham did not do this. You are doing the works of your father!" [So] they said to him we are not illegitimate. We have one Father, God." If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come from my own, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word. You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him.

He was speaking to the Jews in this instance. If he was this harsh towards those jews who didn't follow him. How much harder will he be with those that deny his message. So does Islam deny the message of Jesus Christ. If not, then why make the people of the book feel subjegated and forced to pay a tax?

Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[Hiroshi]

So even a poor innocent baby that is newly born is a sinner. If that baby does not redeem itself by putting its faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and dies then the poor baby is condemned to hell. How can you expect a baby that cannot comprehend or think to accept Jesus as its Lord? What if the poor baby dies before it grows up to become able to rationalize and accept a religion. What about a mentally retarded person that cannot think for him self? He is a sinner by nature and will be doomed to Hell for not recognizing Jesus as Lord and Savior simply because his mind cannot!

Acts 24:15 says that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. The "unrighteous" ones here would be those who never had the opportunity to learn or comprehend and appreciate God's means of salvation.

[MustafaMc]

The Bible does not teach that you have an immortal soul that can burn in hell forever. It teaches that the dead may receive a resurrection.

If that be so, how do you explain Luke 16:19-31 which is the story of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus?

[gmcbroom]

Mustafa,
It's a parable in essence a story meant to illustrate a point. It is meant to remind people of the reversal of fortunes of those that do nothing for those around them. In this case the rich for the poor.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[Hiroshi]

If that be so, how do you explain Luke 16:19-31 which is the story of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus?

The account does not say that Lazarus went to Gehenna/Jahannam. It says that he went to Hades. Hades means simply the grave as at 1 Corinthians 15:55.

There is a similar narrative in Isaiah 14:8-11. There the king of Babylon is pictured decending into Sheol or Hades (Greek Septuagint) i.e. the grave, where there are worms and maggots (verse 11). Then all of the dead kings and rulers in the grave come and ask the king of Babylon: "Have you yourself also been made weak like us? Is it to us that you have been made comparable?"

Obviously, such an account is not to be understood literally. The corpses of dead kings covered in maggots do not really stand up in their graves and start speaking. Verse 8 even depicts trees as talking saying: "Ever since you have lain down no wood cutter comes up against us?" The whole account is a poetical allegory to show the disgrace of this oppressive tyrant's downfall.

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus' disciples are represented by Lazarus while the rich man pictures the unbelieving Pharisees. As Jews, they are under the Law of Moses. But when Jesus died as a ransom sacrifice they "died" to the Law as explained in Romans 7:4 (compare Romans 7:1-3 with Luke 16:18). This is what is meant by the deaths of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:22).

After this there was a dramatic change in circumstances. The disciples of Jesus began to be comforted by the holy spirit particularly after Pentecost when God's spirit gave them zeal and miraculous gifts. But the unbelieving Pharisees began to be terribly tormented by the unstoppable preaching of the Christians (Acts 7:54). The Bible likens such anguish to torment in a fire (Jeremiah 5:14; Revelation 11:5; Revelation 11:10).

This explains all of the details of the account of Lazarus and the rich man. It is a prediction of the conflict between the early Christianity and orthodox Judaism. The conclusion at the end is that the unbelieving Jews have refused to believe the obvious testimony to Jesus as foretold in scripture (Luke 16:29) and will also fail to be impressed by his resurrection: "neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead" (Luke 16:31).

[gmcbroom]

Hiroshi, well put.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi, well put.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

Thank you my friend.

[MustafaMc]

This explains all of the details of the account of Lazarus and the rich man. It is a prediction of the conflict between the early Christianity and orthodox Judaism.

So you interpret this passage as not referring to a physical torment of the rich man in the Hereafter, but rather as a parable for an earthly struggle. It seems rather convenient to twist a passage away from an apparent meaning that doesn't fit your dogma to something completely 'out in left field' that does fit.

There is repeated reference in the NT about a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. An example is the parable of the good and bad fish caught in a net Matthew 13:49-51 "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked. "Yes" they replied. Another is the parable of the wheat and tares (weeds) in Matthew 13:36.43.

[MustafaMc]

Mustafa,
It's a parable in essence a story meant to illustrate a point. It is meant to remind people of the reversal of fortunes of those that do nothing for those around them. In this case the rich for the poor.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

So, Catholics don't believe in Hell? I can assure you that Baptists do with their "Hellfire and Brimstone" sermons as evidence!

[Hiroshi]

So you interpret this passage as not referring to a physical torment of the rich man in the Hereafter, but rather as a parable for an earthly struggle. It seems rather convenient to twist a passage away from an apparent meaning that doesn't fit your dogma to something completely 'out in left field' that does fit.

The correct understanding about the condition of the dead must be based on the whole Bible, not just one scripture. Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV says: “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing”. And Psalms 146:4 KJV says: “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Revelation 20:13 states that the dead are judged after they come out of Hades, not before: “The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.” (NIV) But the narrative in Luke 16:25, if taken literally, would imply that the judgement, punishment and reward takes place at the moment of death. Nowhere does the Bible teach that Hades is a place of fiery torment. As I explained, it means “the grave” even though different Bible versions commonly translate this word as “hell”. The Douay Version even says that the rich man was buried in hell! “And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.” (Luke 16:22 Douay) Knox reads: “the rich man died too, and found his grave in hell.” The imagery here is very like the non-literal account in Isaiah 14:8-11 which speaks of “worms and maggots” in the grave.

[Hiroshi]

There is repeated reference in the NT about a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. An example is the parable of the good and bad fish caught in a net Matthew 13:49-51 "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked. "Yes" they replied. Another is the parable of the wheat and tares (weeds) in Matthew 13:36.43.

The events in the passage that you quote take place "at the end of the age", not immediately when a person dies. I understand this to be a reference to Armageddon. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is done by the wicked ones because they are facing destruction.

[Woodrow]

The events in the passage that you quote take place "at the end of the age", not immediately when a person dies. I understand this to be a reference to Armageddon. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is done by the wicked ones because they are facing destruction.

What punishment would their be in the loss of existence? such a thought does not seem to place any fear into the hearts of atheists. I suspect many people would see the loss of existing as being a reward and strong justification for suicide.

[gmcbroom]

MustafaMC,
Oh catholics believe in hell. However, to us hell is being removed from God's grace his word taken from you. It's about love. Hell, is a place without love. That's why there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. A place of total despair. It's not a place I ever wish to go.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[MustafaMc]

The events in the passage that you quote take place "at the end of the age", not immediately when a person dies. I understand this to be a reference to Armageddon. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is done by the wicked ones because they are facing destruction.

I understand that Jehovah Witness don't believe in Hell, but from my perspective the Bible teaches that there is punishment for some and reward for others in the Hereafter.

What is the basis for your faith? Do you have anything like the Nicene Creed? What are your fundamental articles of faith?

[MustafaMc]

However, to us hell is being removed from God's grace his word taken from you. It's about love. Hell, is a place without love. That's why there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. A place of total despair. It's not a place I ever wish to go.

...and neither do I. The concept of Hell varies from one religion to the next. In Islam, Hell is a place of active torment and is similar to the concept I had when I was a Baptist. What does the 'blazing furnace' in the verse I quoted earlier mean to you?

[gmcbroom]

MustafaMC,
The parable of the weeds emphasizes patience until the Judgement. The explanation of the parable of the weeds ephasizes the fearful end of the wicked after the judgement. So I suppose one could think hell is a fiery furnace. I hope I never find out personally though.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[Hiroshi]

What punishment would their be in the loss of existence? such a thought does not seem to place any fear into the hearts of atheists. I suspect many people would see the loss of existing as being a reward and strong justification for suicide.

The Qur'an, on the other hand, contains the most fearful descriptions of hell that I have ever read. But does it balance the scales of justice to inflict infinite (never ending) punshment on the sinner for what could only be finite wrong doing (during our brief life span)?

[Hiroshi]

MustafaMC,
Oh catholics believe in hell. However, to us hell is being removed from God's grace his word taken from you. It's about love. Hell, is a place without love. That's why there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. A place of total despair. It's not a place I ever wish to go.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

I've got some bad news for you then. The Catholic Douay Version says this at Ecclesiastes 9:10: "Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening."

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/23009.htm

The verse says that you are hastening to hell. Any thoughts on that?

[gmcbroom]

Hiroshi,
So I'm going to hell for offending somone? Hmmmmm.......things to ponder my friend thank you.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[Hiroshi]

I understand that Jehovah Witness don't believe in Hell, but from my perspective the Bible teaches that there is punishment for some and reward for others in the Hereafter.

What is the basis for your faith? Do you have anything like the Nicene Creed? What are your fundamental articles of faith?

There are a number of accounts in the Bible where someone who has died gets resurrected back from the dead. It would be helpful if any of these resurrected ones could have mentioned anything describing about their experience of being dead so that we could know if they could recall any memory of being conscious. But the Bible unfortunately contains no such description by anyone resurrected. The Qur'an however does.

Surah 2:259 is a account of a man who died for 100 years and then returned to life. What could he remember? Absolutely nothing. He thought that only a short interval had passed ("part of a day") even though it was a century of time.

The Bible agrees that the dead are conscious of nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). But there will come the time when the dead will be resurrected. Only those "counted worthy" (Luke 20:35) would be resurrected, not everyone. Those resurrected first would go to heaven to be with Jesus and to rule as kings with him for 1,000 years over the earth (Daniel 7:27; Revelation 20:4). Others would be resurrected to llive upon the earth (along with Armageddon survivors) under that kingdom of heaven (Daniel 12:2). Satan and the demons would be cast into an abyss during that 1,000 years (Revelation 20:3). By the end of the 1,000 years those upon the earth would be restored to perfection and be totally free from inherited sin from Adam. Then Satan would be released to be given the chance to launch a last final attack upon perfect mankind to try to corrupt them (Revelation 20:7-8). Some would fall prey to Satan's influence. But these would not be allowed to harm those who loyally choose to take sides with God. Finally all human rebels as well as Satan and his demons would be destroyed forever and no one would ever again challenge God's rulership or the faithfulness and integrity of God's human or angelic creatures.

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi,
So I'm going to hell for offending somone? Hmmmmm.......things to ponder my friend thank you.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

I didn't say that. Everybody goes to hell, even righteous people like Jacob, Joseph ("I will go down to my son into hell" Genesis 37:35 (Douay)) and Jesus (Acts 2:27).

[MustafaMc]

Hiroshi, thank you for clarifying your beliefs.

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi,
So I'm going to hell for offending somone? Hmmmmm.......things to ponder my friend thank you.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

The most common word translated as "hell" is Hebrew "sheol" which is always rendered "hades" in the Greek Septuagint (as well as in the NT where it quotes from the Hebrew: Psalms 16:10/Acts 2:27). But sheol/hades simply means "the grave" as at 1 Corinthians 15:55 KJV. We all go to the grave when we die. Therefore all of us go to hell. And come out of it. Revelation 20:13 KJV says "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them".