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The_Prince
08-03-2009, 04:24 PM
Saudi Arabia will not recognise Israel until it withdraws from occupied Arab land and makes committed steps toward a lasting two-state solution, a senior official said on Wednesday.

Foreign ministry spokesman Osama Nugali also called Israeli policy “schizophrenic” and said it was jeopardising attempts to revive Middle East peace talks aimed at creating an independent Palestinian state. “Our position is well known. It is Israel that has to move seriously towards the peace process,” Nugali said.

“As we all know, Israel is continuing to take unilateral measures by changing the geographic and demographic facts on the ground, by building settlements and expanding the existing ones," he said. “The Arab peace initiative is very clear,” he said, referring to a 2002 Saudi-inspired Middle East peace blueprint.

That Israel should withdraw from the Arab lands and put an end to its occupation and resolve the major issues of the conflict,” he said, citing the future of Palestinian refugees, water-sharing issues, and the future status of Jerusalem as a capital for both states.

Such issues must be resolved "in order to achieve a permanent, just and lasting peace which is based on the establishment of an independent contiguous and viable Palestinian state," Nugali said.

"In the Arab peace process normalisation comes after achieving these goals, not before it. So we should not put the cart before the horse."

US Middle East peace envoy George Mitchell on Tuesday called on Arab states to take "meaningful steps" towards Israel to help open talks on a comprehensive regional peace settlement, saying that eventually they should fully normalise relations with the Jewish state.

In addition, several US legislators have drafted a letter to Saudi King Abdullah calling on him to make a "dramatic gesture" towards Israel similar to ground-breaking overtures that ultimately led to peace with Egypt and Jordan. But the Saudis maintain that those overtures have not brought progress toward creating a Palestinian state.

Nugali said Israeli colony expansion in the occupied West Bank continues to prevent any progress, and the Palestinians have refused to restart negotiations until Israel freezes construction.

But Israel has rejected calls by the US administration to halt colonizing activity, leading to the worst public rift between the two close allies in years.

"We have been seeing a schizophrenic Israeli policy. On one hand you talk about peace and their interest to achieve peace," he said.

"On the other hand they take actions against the peace process that complicate it and put it in jeopardy."

http://www.gulfnews.com/news/gulf/sa.../10335655.html
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Uthman
08-03-2009, 07:05 PM
:threadapp
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thetruth2009
08-03-2009, 07:33 PM
Assalam aleykoum brother,


I have one thing to say, do not forget what happened in GAZA.

Arabic country are nothing, NO COMMENT.

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.
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Periwinkle
08-08-2009, 05:19 AM
Works both ways - why should the Arabs not withdraw to their homeland of Arabia, after all, Israe, Judea and Samaria these were non Arab Jewish/Chrstian lands and the Arabs were the invaders.

It was the Arabians under the first four caliphs who did the occupying - perhaps Saudi Arabia, in its benevolence, could offer homes to the descendants of the Arabians and their armies who stole other peoples lands.
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Clover
08-08-2009, 05:23 AM
If I was in Israel's leadership, I wouldn't do it. I mean, I doubt they would do anything, other then re-occupy the land, and tell Israel they don't believe they exist, and then when Israel comes back, repeat it.
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جوري
08-08-2009, 05:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
Works both ways - why should the Arabs not withdraw to their homeland of Arabia, after all, Israe, Judea and Samaria these were non Arab Jewish/Chrstian lands and the Arabs were the invaders.

It was the Arabians under the first four caliphs who did the occupying - perhaps Saudi Arabia, in its benevolence, could offer homes to the descendants of the Arabians and their armies who stole other peoples lands.
lol.. you really do provide me with my daily laughs..

Mesopotamia (the birth place of civilization) is said to take place in that entire region covering, Najd, to the Euphrates. They are the true Semites, not the modern day Ashkanzics who have no relation to the ancients.
is more correctly applicable to the inhabitants of Arabia, who more than any other group have retained their Semitic features, in manners, customs.. I reference to Von Kremmer,springer, syce, DeGoeje amongst many other scholars. What you write is neither scientific nor historically accurate, In the OT for instance many are put in the semitic stock while they are not such as the Elamite, and Ludim, while the actual semites and the inhabitants of the regions that have always been are excluded such as the Phoneticians and the Canaanites Quoting K.K hitti, history of the Arabs. pp 8-9


The original People gave up paganism with the start of monotheism which was not labeled under Judaism or Christianity (to understand the nature of those terms) you'd actually need to know something about history, but I am sure the mods keep you around as a prototype of a bucolic oaf..

now something about the history of palestine, but before I go (with Islamic conquests) the inhabitants of regions converted, not displaced I hope you can wrap your lilliputian brain around that!

the land of Palestine was "supposedly" promised to the seed of Abraham. If one researches the Ancient Hebrew laws, the right of decent or inheritance is based on the eldest son, no matter whom the mother is. If this is the case, then the land was promised to Ishamel (for he was the eldest of Abraham's sons) and the Father of Palestinian Arabs. In addition, modern day Jews from Russia, Poland and most parts of Eastern Europe have NO genetic link to the ancient Hebrews - they for the most part are decendents of Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 7th century (this has been documented by Jewish scholars, not Arabs). The modern day Palestinians can claim a more direct link to the Hebrew tribes than the founders of modern day "Israel." What the Western Press purposely avoids mentioning is the fact that at the start of the 20th century, less than 5% of the land of Palestine was Jewish. The modern State of Israel was built on lands illegally taken and assimilated from Palestinian Christians and Muslims. Also, the Hebrews only ruled the land of Palestine for a combined 411 years - the Muslims have ruled the land for 1,500 years. In addition, the land of Canaan (Palestine) had a history long before the Jewish tribes immigrated to the area.

____________

To the mods: I hope you rid us of this broad she is bring down the I.Q quotient for the entire region..

:w:
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AntiKarateKid
08-08-2009, 05:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
Works both ways - why should the Arabs not withdraw to their homeland of Arabia, after all, Israe, Judea and Samaria these were non Arab Jewish/Chrstian lands and the Arabs were the invaders.

It was the Arabians under the first four caliphs who did the occupying - perhaps Saudi Arabia, in its benevolence, could offer homes to the descendants of the Arabians and their armies who stole other peoples lands.
What nonsense. How could the caliphs "occupy" lands when they were the very people who lived there?

Muslims and Jews lived fine enough side by side for thousands of years before some crackpot zionists decided to take the land for themselves. Also for your information, Arab is a race and many early Jews were Arabs.
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AntiKarateKid
08-08-2009, 05:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
If I was in Israel's leadership, I wouldn't do it. I mean, I doubt they would do anything, other then re-occupy the land, and tell Israel they don't believe they exist, and then when Israel comes back, repeat it.
And history says nothing to you? Things were fine before Israel was created. Go back to the way it was.
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جوري
08-08-2009, 05:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
What nonsense. How could the caliphs "occupy" lands when they were the very people who lived there?

Muslims and Jews lived fine enough side by side for thousands of years before some crackpot zionists decided to take the land for themselves. Also for your information, Arab is a race and many early Jews were Arabs.

to be honest at times like these I don't even want to dignify her with a response, I simply prefer the mod rid us of her, she is another troll idiot and the world isn't of shortage of them. She can go dispense her manure and micturate with other braying donkeys!
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Periwinkle
08-08-2009, 06:20 AM
AnteKaratekid:-

The first four caliphs were companions of the Prophet and lived in Arabia for most of their lives - they left Arabia to conquer the Christian Byzantium Empire! By then they were old men and only one died a natural death. Uthman and Omar were assassinated and Ali was killed warring against other muslims when attempting to take over power.

Another fairyland fantasy - muslims and Jews lived fine side by side for centuries. So
Mohammed did not ethnically cleanse the Jews of Medina and Arabia, rape their women, enslave their women and children and take their properties because the Jews would not convert to Islam?

Yes, many early Jews were Arabs - but had either left Arabia or been killed when Mohammed was uniting Arabia under Islam. As it still is today, no Jew or Christian is allowed Saudi citizenship.
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جوري
08-08-2009, 06:28 AM
how did the Jews end up in Arabia? show me where historically the Jews lived in Arabia if it weren't for islamic sources and then your hagana, ergun and stern gang's opinion on how they were uprooted!
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AntiKarateKid
08-08-2009, 06:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
AnteKaratekid:-

The first four caliphs were companions of the Prophet and lived in Arabia for most of their lives - they left Arabia to conquer the Christian Byzantium Empire! By then they were old men and only one died a natural death. Uthman and Omar were assassinated and Ali was killed warring against other muslims when attempting to take over power.

Another fairyland fantasy - muslims and Jews lived fine side by side for centuries. So
Mohammed did not ethnically cleanse the Jews of Medina and Arabia, rape their women, enslave their women and children and take their properties because the Jews would not convert to Islam?

Yes, many early Jews were Arabs - but had either left Arabia or been killed when Mohammed was uniting Arabia under Islam. As it still is today, no Jew or Christian is allowed Saudi citizenship.
Tell you what, if you had any faith in your religion and you're accusations you'd make a search of these claims on this forum or any other Islamic site which crush these lies. But hey! You're faith is built on blind acceptance so don't let me stand in the way with the facts!
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جوري
08-08-2009, 06:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Tell you what, if you had any faith in your religion and you're accusations you'd make a search of these claims on this forum or any other Islamic site which crush these lies. But hey! You're faith is built on blind acceptance so don't let me stand in the way with the facts!
She is heavily chagrined by accurate history, prefers blogs and hee-hawing..
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Periwinkle
08-08-2009, 07:21 AM
GossamerSkye:-

Now Now theres a good boy. Not sure what you mean about the jewish tribes in Arabia - the history of their demise is all in the Quran, Sira and ahadith. I'm surprised you are not familiar wih the history of the Arabian Jewish tribes in the age of the Prophet.

AnteKarateKid :-

You have very obviously never read anything about Islamic history - have you read the Quran in a language you understand, - because this is all well documented history both by muslim and other religious\d historians. Do you not know of the Banu Qurayzah (Medinian Jewish tribe) when Mohammed had 6-700 Jews beheaded in the market place. Perhaps it is time you stuck your nose in a book - I would suggest Ibn Ishaq's/ Ibn Hishams Sirat Rasual Allah, written two centuries after the Prophets death. Translated by Guillame.

I cannot believe that you did not realise that Jewish tribes resided all over the Arabian peninsula in the time of Mohammed
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Periwinkle
08-08-2009, 07:58 AM
GossamerSkye:-

Such dignified replies - however it is not in my nature to respond in kind. Especially when you believe muslims ruled Palestine for 1500 years. How can someone reply to a statement which shows such ignorance. Even a pre-schooler knows that Islam has not even been in existence for that length of time and that it lost its rule during the Crusades and the Mameluke eras.

P.S. As I asked AntiKarateKid, have you ever actually read your source history in English as from some of your comments I doubt very much you have.
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aamirsaab
08-08-2009, 08:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
....Do you not know of the Banu Qurayzah (Medinian Jewish tribe) when Mohammed had 6-700 Jews beheaded in the market place. ....
Cough, misconception, cough.

In all actuality, Muhammad [pbuh] did not actually behead ANY jews....it was carried out by some other dude, who quoted the punishment from deuteronomy - since the ''victims'' were Jewish and were given the punishment laid down by their own book.

I find it rather ironic how you ask others to read books on certain matters and then you drop that really big misconception (or should I say, complete and utter lie) into the discussion...which makes me doubt the content of your other posts...


Now, let's get back on topic.
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The_Prince
08-08-2009, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
GossamerSkye:-

Now Now theres a good boy. Not sure what you mean about the jewish tribes in Arabia - the history of their demise is all in the Quran, Sira and ahadith. I'm surprised you are not familiar wih the history of the Arabian Jewish tribes in the age of the Prophet.

AnteKarateKid :-

You have very obviously never read anything about Islamic history - have you read the Quran in a language you understand, - because this is all well documented history both by muslim and other religious\d historians. Do you not know of the Banu Qurayzah (Medinian Jewish tribe) when Mohammed had 6-700 Jews beheaded in the market place. Perhaps it is time you stuck your nose in a book - I would suggest Ibn Ishaq's/ Ibn Hishams Sirat Rasual Allah, written two centuries after the Prophets death. Translated by Guillame.

I cannot believe that you did not realise that Jewish tribes resided all over the Arabian peninsula in the time of Mohammed
you may think your smart, but your not. please do visit this article that addresses the issue of banu qurayza:

http://muslim-responses.com/Banu_Qurayza/Banu_Qurayza_
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The_Prince
08-08-2009, 11:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
AnteKaratekid:-

The first four caliphs were companions of the Prophet and lived in Arabia for most of their lives - they left Arabia to conquer the Christian Byzantium Empire! By then they were old men and only one died a natural death. Uthman and Omar were assassinated and Ali was killed warring against other muslims when attempting to take over power.

Another fairyland fantasy - muslims and Jews lived fine side by side for centuries. So
Mohammed did not ethnically cleanse the Jews of Medina and Arabia, rape their women, enslave their women and children and take their properties because the Jews would not convert to Islam?

Yes, many early Jews were Arabs - but had either left Arabia or been killed when Mohammed was uniting Arabia under Islam. As it still is today, no Jew or Christian is allowed Saudi citizenship.
could you please quote the sources were the prophet Muhammad raped Jewish women and ethnicly cleansed them?

talk is very cheap, why dont you put your money where your mouth is instead of simply barking too much.
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GuestFellow
08-08-2009, 11:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle

Another fairyland fantasy - muslims and Jews lived fine side by side for centuries. So
Mohammed did not ethnically cleanse the Jews of Medina and Arabia, rape their women, enslave their women and children and take their properties because the Jews would not convert to Islam?
And all your good at doing is talking rubbish. =)

Please continue to amuse me.
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Woodrow
08-08-2009, 12:44 PM
Until 1947 there never was an Israel Nationality. There never was a country called Israel in the past. There were people called Israelites, but they were a mixed group of no specific Nationality.

Somewhere in the lines of history there came some very big misconceptions over Religion, Race and Nationality.

Judaism is a religion it is not a Nationality. Islam is a religion not a race.

Zionism is a political entity it is neither a race nor a religion.

The region called Israel is a political movement occupying land that never belonged to Zionists.

It is not Jews who are illegally occupying the land it is Zionism hiding under the name of Judaism. Western Fundamentalist Christian groups were duped into bringing about and supporting a bunch of land grabbers. The Arab Jews from the region do have a valid reason for voicing a claim for some of the land and in the past the Arab Muslims did respect those claims. Zionism is against all Arabs, it makes no difference to them if the Arab is Muslim, Jew or Christian.
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Zafran
08-08-2009, 01:35 PM
salaam

I dont even believe that anyone knows what they mean by "arab lands" - its talking about the west bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza - the focus is on the settlements by Isreal in the west bank which are Illegal under international law - but Isreal doesnt care - making it a conquering state.

All the talk about the Jews being there first is bogus - pure smoke screen - because if thats the case then we have to see how the Jews got the land in the first place.

peace
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جوري
08-08-2009, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
GossamerSkye:-

Now Now theres a good boy. Not sure what you mean about the jewish tribes in Arabia - the history of their demise is all in the Quran, Sira and ahadith. I'm surprised you are not familiar wih the history of the Arabian Jewish tribes in the age of the Prophet.

AnteKarateKid :-

You have very obviously never read anything about Islamic history - have you read the Quran in a language you understand, - because this is all well documented history both by muslim and other religious\d historians. Do you not know of the Banu Qurayzah (Medinian Jewish tribe) when Mohammed had 6-700 Jews beheaded in the market place. Perhaps it is time you stuck your nose in a book - I would suggest Ibn Ishaq's/ Ibn Hishams Sirat Rasual Allah, written two centuries after the Prophets death. Translated by Guillame.

I cannot believe that you did not realise that Jewish tribes resided all over the Arabian peninsula in the time of Mohammed
Tinkles if you didn't spend so much time dumping manure everywhere and actually read some history books, then perhaps you'd not be in a blunder on every threads.

I like that you speak of historians now we are talking.
Show me where the historians got their info about banu quryzah.. as you can probably use the one brain cell in your mind, that is if it isn't held by a spirochete and know there couldn't have been any jewish historians in Arabia if the Muslims had wiped them out? thus no record.. if a record at all of them, it would have been through the Muslims, and obviousely the muslim account of the events differs from your desired rendition.

Must you leave micturate on every thread only to abandon it after realizing that you are a dunce?

I am at a loss as to why they insist on keeping you here?
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جوري
08-08-2009, 04:14 PM
fact is the punishment of the Jews is the one that they chose for themselves as mandated in their books...browse through the OT some!
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جوري
08-08-2009, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
GossamerSkye:-

Such dignified replies - however it is not in my nature to respond in kind. Especially when you believe muslims ruled Palestine for 1500 years. How can someone reply to a statement which shows such ignorance. Even a pre-schooler knows that Islam has not even been in existence for that length of time and that it lost its rule during the Crusades and the Mameluke eras.

P.S. As I asked AntiKarateKid, have you ever actually read your source history in English as from some of your comments I doubt very much you have.

Yes again, there is what you believe, and there is what is recorded in history.. hmmmm another difficult decision which to choose? going by your record here alone, I rather think the choice is obvious.
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جوري
08-08-2009, 04:20 PM
Let's explore some myths and realities on Israel.. by the way the author is an Arab christian... ( should leave one with the clear impression) that the actual semites of the region whether Muslims or a christian minority don't accept or recognize the colonial settler Zionist cockroach state or its inhabitants as having any blood relations to the original Hebrews who became christian then Muslim) they are in fact descendants of Khazars.. It isn't even a political term, search science books on (ashkanazi) Jews) converts during the 7th century!


Myths and Realities about Israel



Myth No. 1: About UN Partition Resolution

The UN voted in 1947 to create the State of Israel in the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. Israel accepted the compromise while the Arabs rejected it.

REALITY:
The 1947 UN resolution is a General Assembly resolution, not a Security Council resolution. The UN General Assembly can only make recommendations. Recommendations have no obligatory character. Member states are free to accept or reject them.
Israel’s apologists are quick to say that Israel accepted this compromise. The Partition Plan granted 52% of Palestine to the Jews who were 30% of the population and owned no more than 6% of the land. This is a net gain on the part of Israel, not a compromise.
Israel’s apologists are quick to claim that the Arabs started the 1948 war. Ben-Gurion himself in Rebirth and Destiny of Israel wrote: “Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad” (p. 530). Israel’s military activity started well before any attack by the Arab armies.
Israel’s apologists are quick to accuse Jordan of occupying and annexing what is now called the West Bank. While not a single Arab soldier entered the area allotted to Israel in the UN resolution, Israel occupied and annexed areas in excess of what was allotted to it in the UN Partition Plan. These areas include, among other areas, the Arab cities of Nazareth, Jaffa, Acre, Lydda and Ramleh. Thus Israel expanded from 52% to 78%.
Moreover, according to the UN Partition Plan, 49% of the population of the Jewish state was supposed to be Arabs. Through a war of ethnic cleansing this percentage was reduced to 12%. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was the result of a deliberate master plan, code named Plan Dalet.
In light of all the above, it is ludicrous to pretend that Israel accepted UN General Assembly Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947.



Myth No. 2: About Annexation

The military occupation of Palestinian territories has never been converted by Israel into an annexation.

REALITY:
Immediately after the 1967 war, the Israeli government issued an order declaring that an area comprising the Old City of Jerusalem and some adjacent territory should be subject to the law, jurisdiction and administration of Israel. Thus Israel expanded municipal East Jerusalem from 6 km2 to 73 km2 of the West Bank. Furthermore, Jewish colonization of East Jerusalem went beyond the extended municipal boundaries to include what Israel calls Greater and Metropolitan Jerusalem comprising 330 km2 and 665 km2, respectively.
The Annexation of the Old City of Jerusalem was carried out under the Law and Administration Ordinance (Amendment No. 11 of June 27, 1967). Not only did Israel annex East Jerusalem but it also feverishly worked toward the judaization of its population by expropriating Arab land to build Jewish settlements.
As for the rest of the occupied territories, the real reason for not annexing them is the racist nature of the Zionist state. The only way for Israel to annex the occupied territories is by cleansing them of their indigenous inhabitants, following the pattern of 1948 (see Myth No. 1 above).
Furthermore, on December 14, 1981, Israel officialy annexed the Golan Heights. The legislation, extending Israeli law to the area of the Golan Heights was adopted by the Knesset by a majority of 63 against 21.



Myth No. 3: Jordan attacked first
Israel in 1967 notified Jordan that it wished to maintain non-belligerent policy between the two states and that Jordan nevertheless attacked Israel.


REALITY: “The pretence that Israel would not attack Jordan is belied by the secret decision adopted by the Israeli cabinet on June 4, 1967 (which was made public on June 4, 1972) to attack Egypt, Syria and Jordan on the following day” (Henry Cattan, Jerusalem, p.69).
Also, Israel was well aware that Jordan signed on May 30, 1967 a defense pact with Egypt, allowing Egyptians to take command of the Jordanian army.



Myth No. 4: Recognizing and making peace with Israel
When Egypt recognized and made peace with Israel in 1979 the entire Sinai was returned to Egypt.

REALITY: The purpose of such a statement is to give the impression that Israel is willing to withdraw from the land it occupied in exchange for peace. The return of the entire Sinai would be a proof of that. In this context, the name of Anwar Sadat is mentioned.
Jimmy Carter’s memoirs: Keeping the Faith: Memoirs of a President shatters this impression. Menachem Begin did not want to withdraw from the entire Sinai. For Israel to come to it senses, it necessitated the pressures that only an American President could have applied.
For Israel’s apologists to say that when the Palestinian Authority agreed to recognize and negotiate with Israel, Israel began to “transfer control of West Bank lands” is further evidence that Israel’s goal is not to achieve with the Palestinians a peace resembling the peace with Egypt, (the withdrawal from the entire occupied territories, similar to its withdrawal from the entire Sinai), but to establish another form of occupation.
Israel's defenders claim that by mid-2000 more than 90% of the Arab population of the West Bank and more than 25% of its land were under complete Palestinian control. This only demonstrates what Israel is really after: an indigenous authority controlling its indigenous population, while Israel continues to build Jewish settlements in the remaining 75% of Palestinian land. The result of such policy is the establishment of numerous disconnected Palestinian enclaves (bantustans) in a sea of settlements rendering the free movement of the Palestinians difficult, if not impossible.



Myth No. 5: Barak’s “unprecedented offer”
Israel made an “unprecedented offer” consisting of giving back 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza. Jerusalem itself would be partitioned into Israeli and Palestinians sectors.

REALITY: The Jerusalem that is being referred to here is just the Old City of Jerusalem, not the entire East and West Jerusalems. Not only will Israel keep West Jerusalem but it also wants to partition East Jerusalem. The Palestinians, by the way, accepted to give Israel sovereignty over the Jewish holy places, something that the Israelis refused to give to the Palestinians. They rather talked about “religious sovereignty” over Haram al-Sahrif, and “autonomy” over the Christians and Muslims quarters.
The 95% of the West Bank referred to is in fact 95% minus the expanded municipal boundaries of Jerusalem, that Israel has already annexed (see Myth No. 2 above), which makes Barak’s offer more like 85% of all the West Bank.
Furthermore, the so-called Palestinian state that would have been created according to the “unprecedented offer” would have control neither over its natural resources nor over it air space (For more details see: Camp David mythology)



Myth No. 6: Israel never target civilians
Israel does not deliberately target civilians.

REALITY:
How else can we qualify dropping a 2,000 pound bomb on an apartment building in a civilian neighborhood supposedly to kill one “terrorist leader”?
Also, a Jan. 3, 2003 editorial in The Washington Post had this to say: “Israeli paramilitary forces have reportedly been operating something they call ‘the lottery,’ in which they detain Palestinians and order them to choose from pieces of paper labeled with punishments such as ‘broken leg’ and ‘smashed head.’ The practice was reported by an Israeli newspaper on Dec. 22, more than a week before Amran Abu Hamediye was beaten to death.” This is what a self-censorship press revealed. What is not being reported must be even worse.



Myth No. 7: The “only democracy”
Israel is the “only democracy” in the Middle East.

REALITY: How many times have Israel’s apologists repeated this slogan? In fact, Israel is not a democracy by Western standards. Not a single Western democracy occupies another people’s land, rules another people and subjects them to all kinds of humiliations, torture and mistreatment. Israel indeed is a democracy, but a democracy by Zionist standards, just as South Africa, under the White minority rule, was a democracy by apartheid standards. It is true that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship have the right to vote in Israel. So are all the citizens of the Arab countries. This however doesn’t make them democracies. In Israel, there is no equality between Jews and non-Jews. In a Jewish state, Jews are more equal than non-Jews. It has always been that way and unless Israel becomes the country of all its citizens, it will lack the characteristics of a Western democracy.
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جوري
08-08-2009, 04:21 PM

In a lecture I have given in 1995, I alluded to a very important point that deserves to be dealt with in depth. The following is a quotation from that lecture:
I am a Christian Arab. Not all the Jews are my cousins and neither are all the Christians nor all the Muslims. My cousins are the Hebrews, the Jews who live or used to live in the Arab countries. Arabs and Hebrews are both Semitic people and both words are made up of the same Semitic three-letter root (`rb & `br ). The Jews of Europe, the Ashkenazi, are Jews but not Hebrews (Ashkenaz is the medieval Hebrew name for Germany). Nor are they Semites in the first place, a fact that points to a misuse of another term, that of anti-Semitism. As a matter of fact, the Ashkenazi Jews have no historic link to Palestine. They descend from the Khazars, a Tatar people of Turkish origin who converted to Judaism at the time of Charlemagne in the 8th century. Their homeland is located in south-eastern Russia between the Caspian and the Black seas (see map).
What I was alluding to is almost a taboo subject that very few people know about. It is the subject of the Jewish Khazars, the ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews. I wrote two Letters to the Editor (letters 94 and 100) about the origin of the Ashkenazi Jews and their relationship to the Khazars. I was not surprised when the Editor chose not to print them. This issue, however, is not unknown to scholars, particularly to Medieval historians. But the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of the educated people, and even the history teachers in high schools have never heard of the Khazars. One of the first scholars who started to be interested in Khazar history is the orientalist Paul Eric Kahle, who was born in 1875 in East Prussia and died in 1965 in Bonn. He published The Cairo Geniza in London, Oxford University Press, 1947. His student, D. M. Dunlop, wrote The History of the Jewish Khazars, published by Princeton University Press in 1954 (pb 1967). It is considered to be an invaluable source for Khazar history. Another historian from Cambridge University, J. B. Bury, devoted a chapter on the Khazars in his book A History of the Eastern Roman Empire, published in London in 1912.

Books, Bookreviews, Articles...
1. The best way to start learning about the Khazars and their history is to read an excerpt on the subject taken from Alfred Lilienthal's book What Price Israel? (see excerpt, also in Arabic translation)
2. Another interesting article is the one written by Dr. Fayez Sayegh, a Palestinian Christian, who put the issue of the Khazars in a religious context. By refuting the Jews' divine and historic rights to Palestine, Zionism's claim becomes baseless (see article). Dr. Sayegh quotes extensively from a study by Professor Alfred Guillaume who exclusively deals with the religious aspect of the promise God made to Abraham (see study).
3. "Scholars Debate Origins of Yiddish and Migration of Jews" (New York Times of October 29, 1996) is one of those rare instances where the issue of the Khazars is treatead in the mainstream media. But notice how misleading the title is. Not only does the word Khazar not appear in the title, but it is mentioned only once in this long article and toward the end (see article). This issue of the Origin of the Yiddish Language was taken up in a three-part series by Philologos in the Jewish weekly Forward: Vocal Minority (Nov 22, 1996), The Case of Ladino (Nov. 29, 1996), and Redrawing the Yiddish Map (Dec.6, 1996).
4. The book that popularized the Khazars is the one written by Arthur Koestler, The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and its Heritage, Random House, 1976. After tracing the history of this ancient empire, the author concludes that "The mainstream of Jewish migrations did not flow from the Mediterranean across France and Germany to the east and then back again. The stream moved in a consistently westerly direction, from the Caucasus through the Ukraine into Poland and thence into Central Europe. When that unprecedented mass settlement in Poland came into being, there were simply not enough Jews around in the west to account for it, while in the east a whole nation was on the move to new frontiers" (page 180). See the review of the book written by Grace Halsell.
5. The Ashkenazi Jews: A Slavic and Turkish People in Search of a Jewish Identity, by Paul Wexler, Professor of Linguistics, Tel Aviv University, 1993. In this book, Paul Wexler suggests that the great bulk of Yiddish-speaking Eastern-European Jewry have no genetic relations to the Jews of the Middle East and southern Europe and descends from Slavic (and to a lesser extent Turkish) proselytes who converted to Judaism. His argumentation is based on a linguisitc approach. He contends that, in East-European Yiddish, a number of basic Jewish ritual practices are referred to by originally Slavic words. His conclusion is that "The evidence provided by Jewish languages strongly suggests that there is little basis for the claims that the contemporary Jews of Europe, Africa, and Asia, as well as their religious practices and folklores, are 'evolved forms' of the Palestinian Jews and their culture of two millennia ago. On the contrary, contemporary Jews, like their religion and folk culture, appear to be overwhelmingly of non-Jewish origin." Philologos wrote a four-part series commenting on the book in the Jewish weekly Forward : Wexler's Bombshells - Part 1 (June 4, 1993), Wexler's Conversions - Part 2 (June 11, 1993), Wexler's Conversions - Part 3 (June 18, 1993) and Wexler's Conversions - Part 4 (June 25, 1993).
6. The Jews of Khazaria, by Kevin Alan Brook, 1999. This volume traces the development of the Khazars from their early beginnings as a tribe to the decline and fall of their kingdom. It also examines the many migrations of the Khazar people into Hungary, Ukraine, and other areas of Europe. The Jews of Khazaria draws upon the latest archival, linguistic, and archaeological discoveries (see The Khazaria Info Center).
Internet Sites
The Khazaria Info Center: http://www.khazaria.com
The Khazar Heritage: http://home6.swipnet.se/~w-66679/khazaria/index.html
Book of Ruth Proves Khazars are Legitimate Jews: http://www.advweb.com/kw/misc/misc/kw_khazar.html
Frequently Asked Questions and Answers on Soc.Culture.Jewish Section 13. Jews as a Nation
http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq...faq/13-04.html
Khazar Information: http://www.daft.com/~scotto/melody/dotk.html
Khazaria Historic Maps: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/3976/




For the rest of the items on this website, click here


http://www.mideastwatch.com/
Reply

noorseeker
08-08-2009, 04:22 PM
I heard this lecture today, Yes 400-900 jews were executed in medina,

why, because they commited high treason, they went back on their agreement that they would defend medina , and even assisted the enemy

Their leader actually wanted to massacre their own women and children, so as the soldiers will fight more fiercley because they would have nothing to lose then
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Clover
08-08-2009, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
And history says nothing to you? Things were fine before Israel was created. Go back to the way it was.
Obviously it does. I don't think destroying Israel is good for anyone, sorry that I don't support it? I feel so awful cause I don't support driving them into the water.

If they want to leave, let them, if not, then I guess the Arab countries can fight them till one wins. Either way I am not going to be on either side unless the US Army, decides to intervene, and I don't really care which side then, cause then I am going to be focused on living, not on helping one side win over the other.

Honestly, either way, it doesn't matter, the only way this is ever going to be settled is when one side or the other finally says "mercy" and quits. I don't really care which, cause I don't know anyone in any of them that I care about a lot, if they both want to slaughter each other, then I'd advise the neutrals to move, and let them decimate each other.
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aadil77
08-08-2009, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Obviously it does. I don't think destroying Israel is good for anyone, sorry that I don't support it?
Who said anything about 'destroying Israel'? Are you deliberately tryin to pis us off?
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Clover
08-08-2009, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Who said anything about 'destroying Israel'? Are you deliberately tryin to pis us off?
haha Nope. If I was, you'd be pissed already sir.

Well, what exactly do you think should happen to Israel if its not going to be destroyed? Evict those that want to spread it? I mean, I do not see why they should stop cause a country threatens them.
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GuestFellow
08-08-2009, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover

Well, what exactly do you think should happen to Israel if its not going to be destroyed? Evict those that want to spread it? I mean, I do not see why they should stop cause a country threatens them.
How is Israel going to be destroyed exactly? What threatens them?
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جوري
08-08-2009, 07:41 PM
actually if you know a bit about Abrahamic faiths in general, they are to be gathered there fro all corners of the earth for a promise to be fulfilled. The righteous Jews will follow the true religion, the rest will go with their awaited messiah and it will be the end of them.. Read chapter 17 in the Quran:

[Pickthal 17:4] And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.

[Pickthal 17:5] So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed. (this has already happened) In Jeremiah 52: 4 to 27 the annihilation of the Jews alongwith their king Zedekiah and his sons and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian Nebuchadrezzar in 586 B.C. is mentioned in detail. The Babylonians penetrated through their lands, their temple, and their homes, and carried away the Jews, men and women, into captivity.

[Pickthal 17:6] Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.

[Pickthal 17:104] And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.


so in fact, it isn't a big surprise, and as many Muslims and Arabs as they are displacing and kill and maim and annihilate send into refugee camp whatever is left, while excavating beneath al Aqsa to build their alleged third temple, it will in fact backfire on them as such is the promise of God, who has fulfilled three quarters of the prophecy thus far!

all the best

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Clover
08-08-2009, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
How is Israel going to be destroyed exactly? What threatens them?
"In 1967, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan massed troops close to Israeli borders, expelled UN peacekeepers and blocked Israel's access to the Red Sea. "


"On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack against Israel."

That is 2 fights they have been in, and I don't know for sure if they started it or not, but that is not really meaning anything when they are attacked by multiple nations.

Honestly, I am not going to say they are in the right or wrong, but to say no one threatens them really sounds more like a joke.
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GuestFellow
08-08-2009, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
"In 1967, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan massed troops close to Israeli borders, expelled UN peacekeepers and blocked Israel's access to the Red Sea. "


"On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack against Israel."

That is 2 fights they have been in, and I don't know for sure if they started it or not, but that is not really meaning anything when they are attacked by multiple nations.

Honestly, I am not going to say they are in the right or wrong, but to say no one threatens them really sounds more like a joke.
Can I have the source of this please? Thanx :P
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Clover
08-08-2009, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Can I have the source of this please? Thanx :P
lol take a guess, it's the easiest source of crappy information on the Internet! I really want to leave it there so you can guess, but crap that'd be spam. Wiki. I can't wait for you to get sources too, I prefer looking them up, but I am going to go eat lunch, bbl.
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جوري
08-08-2009, 07:53 PM
Myth and realities about Israel is addressed on previous page by Dr. Medhat creedi whom as I already stated is an arab christian.
can people who have never been to israel to see first hand account be equated to those who have? I have had two civilian friends killed there, if I am to ignore all else, one should at least believe first hand eye witness.

I don't recognize the colonial settler state of Israel, and don't care to be politically correct about it. Their existence seems contingent on the annihilation of the aborigines, and in such a case the choice is clear as to where our liege and loyalties should be!
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aadil77
08-08-2009, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Well, what exactly do you think should happen to Israel if its not going to be destroyed? Evict those that want to spread it? I mean, I do not see why they should stop cause a country threatens them.
Nope the only thing that should be destroyed is those huge walls seperating the place. Jews used to live peacefully under muslim rule at the time of the prophet, nobody got evicted then and out of their own dam homes as well
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GuestFellow
08-08-2009, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
lol take a guess, it's the easiest source of crappy information on the Internet! I really want to leave it there so you can guess, but crap that'd be spam. Wiki. I can't wait for you to get sources too, I prefer looking them up, but I am going to go eat lunch, bbl.
Hahaha I guess I should have realised it was wiki. Wikipedia is not that bad, it can give good infor and it does state its sources.
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Clover
08-08-2009, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Hahaha I guess I should have realised it was wiki. Wikipedia is not that bad, it can give good infor and it does state its sources.
I don't trust it a lot. Especially when it comes to religions.

Maybe the Jews there want to live under Jewish Rule.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
08-08-2009, 08:33 PM
Obviously it does. I don't think destroying Israel is good for anyone, sorry that I don't support it? I feel so awful cause I don't support driving them into the water.
You know, this makes me really angry. Where the hell did I say that they should be driven into the water? What a load of rubbish. Dismantle the state and share the land as they did together before. Give the homes back tot heir original owners and build new houses for the immigrant Zionists.

If they want to leave, let them, if not, then I guess the Arab countries can fight them till one wins. Either way I am not going to be on either side unless the US Army, decides to intervene, and I don't really care which side then, cause then I am going to be focused on living, not on helping one side win over the other.
Of course! Who really wants to fight for justice as long as the army gives you a hot meal and a bed right?

Honestly, either way, it doesn't matter, the only way this is ever going to be settled is when one side or the other finally says "mercy" and quits. I don't really care which, cause I don't know anyone in any of them that I care about a lot, if they both want to slaughter each other, then I'd advise the neutrals to move, and let them decimate each other.
Decimate each other? Last I checked they were fine until the state was created and now people just want their homes back. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't give a **** about justice.

If God forbid, someone invades your house and kicks you and your family out, possibly killing your child, I sincerely hope that you don't encounter another person like yourself who'd rather stay back and watch you struggle helplessly.
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GuestFellow
08-08-2009, 08:46 PM
This conflict has not been handled properly by the British or the UN. Israel should start off giving equal rights to Palestinian citizens and treat them properly. This is the only way both sides can discuss their issues.

Jews and Muslims can live in peace. It is Zionism which prevents this. Everyone reunite as one whole state, Muslims and Jews living peacefully....

Those who have committed war crimes and killed innocent civillians should be put on trial.

Muslims and Jews can be part of the law making process. Muslims have their own representative and so does the Jews. Discrimination laws will be put into placed to ensure Muslims and Jews will not be mistreated by other Muslims/Jews.

I don't think this will ever happen. >_> Though I pray for this outcome to be a reality...
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'Abd-al Latif
08-09-2009, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
Works both ways - why should the Arabs not withdraw to their homeland of Arabia, after all, Israe, Judea and Samaria these were non Arab Jewish/Chrstian lands and the Arabs were the invaders.

It was the Arabians under the first four caliphs who did the occupying - perhaps Saudi Arabia, in its benevolence, could offer homes to the descendants of the Arabians and their armies who stole other peoples lands.
They didn't occupy because by that you're saying that the wars were for a worldly reason which entails tyranny and opression. The companions invited invited towards the truth. If they accepted then whatever they owned was safe, if not then jiziyah which is a bit like a peace treaty and if not then they wage war.

The arab land wasn't limited to Saudi Arabic, because Saudi Arabia didn't even exist until the last 100 years or so. The land before that wasn't 'the land of the arabs' it was 'the land of the muslims' because the Muslim land encompased from asia to africa to the middle east.

The first four caliphs were companions of the Prophet and lived in Arabia for most of their lives - they left Arabia to conquer the Christian Byzantium Empire! By then they were old men and only one died a natural death. Uthman and Omar were assassinated and Ali was killed warring against other muslims when attempting to take over power.

Another fairyland fantasy - muslims and Jews lived fine side by side for centuries. So Mohammed did not ethnically cleanse the Jews of Medina and Arabia, rape their women, enslave their women and children and take their properties because the Jews would not convert to Islam?

Yes, many early Jews were Arabs - but had either left Arabia or been killed when Mohammed was uniting Arabia under Islam. As it still is today, no Jew or Christian is allowed Saudi citizenship.
Fairlyland fantasy? Please do yourself a favour and get your facts straight before you speak.

Answer me this. If the muslims and jews didn't live side by side for centuries then why are the jews alive today? The Muslims and Jews both reconize the holyness of Jerusalem and it's sanctity is just as important to us as it is to them, if not more. When the jews agreed to give the Muslims authority over the holy land at the time when the jews lived there, the Muslim army who was present during this transfer of authorty was overwhelming large. If we Muslims wanted to kill the jews and not leave a single jew on the face of this earth then this could have been done easily - and I stress easily - because for a people to conquer the roman and persian empire simultaneously, what are a bunch of minorty armyless jews going to do with a military whose strength was recognized throughout the world?!

The jews lived under Muslim rule in saftey and peace and this is a fact not only with Muslims but also with jews. They were only banished from the city of Madinah because they were the ones who broke the peace treaty which originally Muhammad (:saws:) made in which he reconised the jews as citizens of the city of Madinah. They spoke against the Muslims, they sided the Makkan army that intended to fight the Muslims and kill Muhammad, they are the ones who wrote poetry to incite the people to fight against the muslims so because of their violation of the peace treaty they were banished. Not for an unjust cause and if you made an effort to read his biography this will be clear to you.

And if you're still not convinced then I challenge you to go through the entire Qur'an and the Hadeeth collection and find me a clear cut statement where it says that Islam allows the rape of women, you won't find anything because rape is forbidden in Islam! Shows how much you know of the Islamic history excepted for twisted texts you found on non-islamic sources.
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'Abd-al Latif
08-09-2009, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle
AnteKarateKid :-

You have very obviously never read anything about Islamic history - have you read the Quran in a language you understand, - because this is all well documented history both by muslim and other religious\d historians. Do you not know of the Banu Qurayzah (Medinian Jewish tribe) when Mohammed had 6-700 Jews beheaded in the market place. Perhaps it is time you stuck your nose in a book - I would suggest Ibn Ishaq's/ Ibn Hishams Sirat Rasual Allah, written two centuries after the Prophets death. Translated by Guillame.

I cannot believe that you did not realise that Jewish tribes resided all over the Arabian peninsula in the time of Mohammed
I've read about Islamic history and I take particular interest in history in general. And I can tell you that your claims are just twisted texts.

And why did Muhammad lay siege on that jewish tribe? Because when a muslim women went to a jewish man to sell her jewelry in the market place, he abused her by tieing her clothes in a way that revealed half her naked body. A companion heard her scream and he saw what happened so he ran towards that jew and killed him. The other jews saw this and they surrounded him and killed him. The news reached Muhammad :saws: straight away and and he immediately gathered an army to lay siege on those jews to retilate for what they did. All of this because the honour and sanctity of one muslim woman was violated. Not because of an unjusts cause as you make it seem.

If anything the Jews in Madinah were more hostile to the Muslims and it's because of their constant violations they were either banished or killed. They got what they earned from their own hands.
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Clover
08-09-2009, 02:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I've read about Islamic history and I take particular interest in history in general. And I can tell you that your claims are just twisted texts.

And why did Muhammad lay siege on that jewish tribe? Because when a muslim women went to a jewish man to sell her jewelry in the market place, he abused her by tieing her clothes in a way that revealed half her naked body. A companion heard her scream and he saw what happened so he ran towards that jew and killed him. The other jews saw this and they surrounded him and killed him. The news reached Muhammad :saws: straight away and and he immediately gathered an army to lay siege on those jews to retilate for what they did. All of this because the honour and sanctity of one muslim woman was violated. Not because of an unjusts cause as you make it seem.

If anything the Jews were more hostile to the Muslims because they tried everything to disunite the Muslims and harm them and today the case is no different.
Were all the 6-7 hundred Jews part of the crime?
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'Abd-al Latif
08-09-2009, 02:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Were all the 6-7 hundred Jews part of the crime?
I don't know how many exctally were killed but let's take that number for the sake of argument. During battle you're faced with an opponent, and if you don't kill him then he will kill you so one has to make that obvious decision and fight his opponent. The arabs who resided in the city of Madinah were well known for their bravery, skills and decisiveness in battle so it could be possible but I don't know of a number.

However, if I remember correctly this happend in one day so I can't imagine that so many people would be killed.
Reply

alcurad
08-09-2009, 02:20 AM
although the story itself is quite well known, a small fact about the story of Banu Qurayzah is not oft mentioned: it is based on dubious sources. see the last part of this document http://www.witness-pioneer.org/VScho...s%20killed.doc
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Clover
08-09-2009, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I don't know how many exctally were killed but let's take that number for the sake of argument. During battle you're faced with an opponent, and if you don't kill him then he will kill you so one has to make that obvious decision and fight his opponent. The arabs who resided in the city of Madinah were well known for their bravery, skills and decisiveness in battle so it could be possible but I don't know of a number.

However, if I remember correctly this happend in one day so I can't imagine that so many people would be killed.
I am talking about the beheading not war. People die in war, thats part of it, beheading 6-7 hundred people is mass-murder.
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'Abd-al Latif
08-09-2009, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I am talking about the beheading not war. People die in war, thats part of it, beheading 6-7 hundred people is mass-murder.
They were laying siege, meaning they were attacking the jewish tribe and the jews were attacking back. They didn't capture them or anything. Not that I know of any of anyway so I don't recall of any beheadings in that event.
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Clover
08-09-2009, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
They were laying siege, meaning they were attacking the jewish tribe and the jews were attacking back. They didn't capture them or anything. Not that I know of any of anyway so I don't know of any beheadings in that event.
Then either you or that guy is wrong.
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جوري
08-09-2009, 02:34 AM
The guillotine wasn't invented yet, and neither were chokers!
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'Abd-al Latif
08-09-2009, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Then either you or that guy is wrong.
Ok well let me get my books. I just couldn't be bothered to get up.
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Clover
08-09-2009, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The guillotine wasn't invented yet, and neither were chokers!
Axes were.:raging:

You can behead people with all kinds of things.
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جوري
08-09-2009, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
although the story itself is quite well known, a small fact about the story of Banu Qurayzah is not oft mentioned: it is based on dubious sources. see the last part of this document http://www.witness-pioneer.org/VScho...s%20killed.doc
great article:

Lecture – 12
Issue of Treatment of Banu Qurayzah


On this issue, there are several views. We are sharing with the course participants two major views in this regard, one based on the book of Dr. Abdul Hamid Abu Suleman and the other based on the research work of a contemporary scholar, W. N. Arafat.

First view (“Towards an Islamic Theory of International Relations: New Directions for Methodology and Thought” by AbdulHamid A. AbuSulayman, 2nd edition reprint, The International Institute of Islamic Thought, Herndon, Virginia, USA, 1993, pp. 102-106.) is that the Prophet used stern measures against the Jews for Security and Psychological Ends which is given below:


Use of Extreme Measures for Security and Psychological Ends
The Banu Qurayzah were one of the Jewish tribes residing in Madinah when the Arab tribes of Madinah turned to Islam. Although the Jewish tribes were inferior in number and military capabilities, they were, as scholars and craftsmen, culturally and economically superior to their Arab neighbors.
The Banu Qurayzah were a part of the federal arrangement between the Muslims and Jewish tribes of Madinah. This arrangement provided religious freedom, self-government, and a joint military alliance against the Quraysh, the archenemy of the Muslims.
The Quraysh, Ghatafan, Qays ‘Aylari, and Banu al Nadir formed an alliance, assembled a large army, and marched against the Muslims in Madinah. During the siege of the city, the Banu Qurayzah revoked their pact with the Muslims and opened negotiations with the attackers. Huyay ibn Ahtab of the Banu Nadir, the tribe that had already been expelled from Madinah for its hostile and subversive activities in collaborating with the Quraysh, was the initiator and mediator of these negotiations. The negotiations failed, however, to meet the demands of the Banu Qurayzah. After the siege collapsed, the confrontation between the Muslims and the Banu Qurayzah took place.
The whole episode of the Battle of the Ditch and the great alliance against Madinah was a night*mare for the Muslims (See Chapter 2 of the text book). The Prophet offered the tribe of Ghatafan a third of Madinah’s yearly crops if it would withdraw and relieve some of the pressure on the Muslims. The Qur’an elo*quently describes this pressure and the Muslims’ fear of total destruction.
Writers have emphasized the moral and legal implications of the Banu Qurayzah’s treacherous breach of its agreement with the Muslims, the propaganda of the religious and political war which the Jewish rabbis waged against Islam, or the alleged desire of the Muslims to confiscate Jewish wealth. After many centuries, writers seem to have overlooked the Qur’an’s and the Prophet’s perceptions of the extreme danger in such an alliance, as well as the psychological impact on the Muslims of the Jews’ withdrawal from the alliance as a motivation for the Muslims to take exceptional and extreme measures. The significance of the action taken against the Banu Qurayzah lies in the attempt on the part of the Muslims to ensure that no more treachery would take place in the future. No other reasoning explains the severe punitive actions that were taken against the Banu Qurayzah.
If the reason were no more than a matter of wealth, it does not explain why other wealthy Jewish and Arab tribes were not dealt with as severely as the Banu Qurayzah. If the reason, as others claim, was the Jews’ breach of the treaty and their sub*versive activity, one need only point out that other Jewish and Arab tribes before and after the Battle of the Ditch had been accused of the same act, including the Banu al Nadir and the Quraysh. It is interesting to note that after the Battle of Uhud, the Banu al Nadir were expelled from Madinah, while after the Treaty of al Hudaybiyah (with the Quraysh), the Jewish tribes of Khaybar only had to pay a tribute of half their crops, which put an end to their financial and political power. Furthermore, one year later the Quraysh, the archenemy of the Muslims, were honorably set free upon their surrender. The political reasons for the different treatment of the Quraysh and the Jewish tribes of Khaybar will be discussed under the next heading.
Although Islam continued to build distinct religious practices (such as fasting in the month of Ramadan and zakah [the giving of charity]), it never questioned the right of the followers of the earlier scriptures (Jews and Christians) to uphold and practice their religions. The whole issue of the difference in punitive action taken against the enemy was political and signifies the flexibility and realism which, in my judgment, the early Islamic framework exhibited. This is not to say, however, that the Islamic framework of external relations is free from moral res*traints, for a look at the Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet will easily show the fallacy of such a claim. The diversity of punitive measures implies that political decisions involving the major interests of the Muslim government and community have to be realistic and flexible within the limits of the Islamic framework. This framework, although asserting moral principles and attitudes, does not narrowly and blindly restrict political leaders and actions.
Increasing Arab-Jewish treachery and attacks, and the fresh memory of the extremely dangerous role of the Banu al Nadir who had been expelled and set free, exerted overwhelming pressure on the Muslim community and gave rise to a fear of total destruction. The Prophet therefore now had to use all the political and military means available to destroy the overwhelming power of the enemy in order to secure the Muslims’ existence. It was clear that the Prophet could no longer tolerate the settlement of the Banu Qurayzah in Madinah; nor could he afford to set them free and add to the strength of his enemies under conditions of extreme danger.
Despite the fact that military and political confrontations forced extreme actions, the Islamic stand on allowing non-Muslim minorities to co-exist with the Muslims, based on both religious and practical grounds, was never denied. On the con*trary, the Prophet was firmly determined to hold this stand throughout his life. His victories simply brought about the vindi*cation of his moral but realistic attitude toward external rela*tions. As a matter of fact, he managed throughout to make the strict fulfillment of agreements a condition for establishing any external relationship, thus exerting a moral superiority for his side over his adversaries. Moral commitment and successful planning and execution of foreign policies are necessary for the success of ideologically oriented societies. The employment of these elements of policymaking by the Prophet helps to explain his great success. In our own times, there is little doubt that the lack of moral commitment in international affairs is the real source of danger for world peace.
The significance of policy variations in regard to banishment and retaliation as a dynamic response to the basic interests and needs of the Muslim state in relation to its environment is rein*forced by further examination of other political and military acti*vities performed during the last ten years of the Prophet’s life as head of the Muslim community and state at Madinah.
Notable among these activities were:
· The missions to eliminate the enemy’s leadership, especially the mission to kill Ka’b ibn al Ashraf of the Banu al Nadir. Muslim writers expended a great deal of effort to explain and justify these wars and missions in legal terms. But what is important is that they paid very little attention to the political and strategic significance of those missions. Since the Prophet and the early Muslims represented a new way of life, they expected a very unfavorable response from the Quraysh and other Arab tribes. Thus they had to be on the defensive. The moral justification of the Muslim response can be easily made, but that does not explain the strategy of the response.
· From the very beginning at Madinah, the Prophet sought to interrupt the major economic interests of the Quraysh. He planned his battles as surprise attacks and even advised Abu Basir to formulate a guerilla approach toward the Qurayshi lines of communication.
· Missions to eliminate the enemy’s poli*tical leadership were directed at groups that built alliances’ against the Muslims. The element of surprise, the guerilla attacks, and the threat of harsh punitive measures and reprisals all succeeded in terrifying the enemy, causing disorder in their ranks, and bringing many of them to the side of the Muslims.
It is this kind of realism, with its wide margin of political maneuverability, rather than legalism and formalism that explains the Prophet’s successful conduct of external affairs.








Second viewis that the Prophet did not order any killing of the Jews by W.N. Arafat (“Did Prophet Muhammad Ordered 900 Jews Killed?”, by W. N. Arafat, Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland , 1976, pp. 100-107.):

Did Prophet Muhammad Ordered 900 Jews Killed?
It is well known that at the advent of Islam there were three Jewish tribes who lived in Yathrib (later Medina), as well as other Jewish settlements further to the north, the most important of which were Khaybar and Fadak. It is also generally accepted that at first the Prophet Muhammad hoped that the Jews of Yathrib, as followers of a divine religion, would show understanding of the new monotheistic religion, Islam. However, as soon as these tribes realized that Islam was being firmly established and gaining power, they adopted an actively hostile attitude, and the final result of the struggle was the disappearance of these Jewish communities from Arabia proper.
The biographers of the Prophet, followed by later historians, tell us that Banu Qaynuqa.,1 and later Banu al-Nadir,2 provoked the Muslims, were besieged, and in turn agreed to surrender and were allowed to depart, taking with them all their transportable possessions. Later on Khaybar3 and Fadak4 were evacuated. According to Ibn Ishaq in the Sira,5 the third of the Jewish tribes, Banu Qurayza, sided with the Qura****es and their allies, who made an unsuccessful attack on Medina in an attempt to destroy Islam. This, the most serious challenge to Islam, failed, and the Banu Qurayza were in turn besieged by the Prophet. Like Banu al-Nadir, in time they surrendered, but unlike the Banu al-Nadir, they were subjected to the arbitration of Sa'd b. Mu'adh, a member of the Aws tribe, allies of Qurayza. He ruled that the grown-up males should be put to death and the women and children subjected to slavery. Consequently, trenches were dug in the market-place in Medina, and the men of Qurayza were brought out in groups and their necks were struck.6 Estimates of those killed vary from 400 to 900.
On examination, details of the story can he challenged. It can be demonstrated that the assertion that 600 or 800 or 9007 men of Banu Qurayza were put to death in cold blood can not be true; that it is a later invention; and that it has its source in Jewish traditions. Indeed the source of the details in earlier Jewish history can be pointed out with surprising accuracy.
The Arabic sources will now be surveyed, and the contribution of their Jewish informants will be discussed. The credibility of the details will then be assessed, and the prototype in earlier Jewish history pin-pointed.
The earliest work that we have, with the widest range of details, is Ibn Ishaq's Sira, his biography of the Prophet. It is also the longest and the most widely quoted. Later historians draw, and in most cases depend on him.8 But Ibn Ishaq died in 151 A.H., i.e. 145 years after the event in question. Later historians simply take his version of the story, omitting more or less of the detail, and overlooking his uncertain list of authorities. They generally abbreviate the story, which appears just as one more event to report. In most cases their interest seems to end there. Some of them indicate that they are not really convinced, but they are not prepared to take further trouble. One authority, Ibn Hajar, however, denounces this story and the other related ones as "odd tales".9 A contemporary of Ibn Ishaq, Malik,10 the jurist, denounces Ibn Ishaq outright as "a liar"11 and "an impostor"12 just for transmitting such stories.
It must be remembered that historians and authors of the Prophet's biography did not apply the strict rules of the "traditionists". They did not always provide a chain of authorities, each of whom had to be verified as trustworthy and as certain or likely to have transmitted his report directly from his informant, and so on. The attitude towards biographical details and towards the early events of Islam was far less meticulous than their attitude to the Prophet's traditions, or indeed to any material relevant to jurisprudence. Indeed Ibn Ishaq's account of the siege of Medina and the fall of the Banu Qurayza is pieced together by him from information given by a variety of persons he names, including Muslim descendants of the Jews of Qurayza.
Against these late and uncertain sources must be placed the only contemporary and entirely authentic source, the Qur'an. There, the reference in Surah XXXIII, 26 is very brief:
"He caused those of the People of the Book who helped them (i.e. the Quraysh) to come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner." There is no reference to numbers.
Ibn Ishaq sets out his direct sources as he opens the relevant chapter on the siege of Medina. These were: a client of the family of al-Zubayr and others whom he "did not suspect". They told parts of the story on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Ka'b b. Malik, al Zuhri, 'Asim b. 'Umar b. Qatada, 'Abdullab b. Abi Bakr, Muhammad b. Ka'b of Qurayza, and "others among our men of learning", as he put it. Each of these contributed to the story, so that Ibn Ishaq's version is the sum total of the collective reports, pieced together. At a later stage Ibn Ishaq quotes another descendant of Qurayza, 'Attiyya13 by name, who had been spared, and, directly, a certain descendant of al-Zabir b. Bata, a prominent member of the tribe of Qurayza who figures in the narrative.
The story opens with a description of the effort of named Jewish leaders to organize against the Muslims an alliance of the hostile forces. The leaders named included three from the Banu al-Nadir and two of the tribe of Wa'il, another Jewish tribe; together with other Jewish fellow-tribesmen unnamed. Having persuaded the neighbouring Bedouin tribes of Ghatafan, Murra, Fazara, Sulaym, and Ashja' to take up arms, they now proceeded to Mecca where they succeeded in persuading the Quraysh. Having gathered together a besieging force, one of the Nadir leaders, Huyayy b. Akhtab, in effect forced himself on the third Jewish tribe still in Medina, the Banu Qurayza, and, against the better judgement of their leader, Ka'b b. Asad, he persuaded them to break faith with the Prophet in the hope, presented as a certainty, that the Muslims would not stand up to the combined attacking forces and that Qurayza and the other Jews would be restored to independent supremacy. The siege of Medina failed and the Jewish tribes suffered for their part in the whole operation.
The attitude of scholars and historians to Ibn lshaq's version of the story has been either one of complacency, sometimes mingled with uncertainty, or at least in two important cases, one of condemnation and outright rejection.
The complacent attitude is one of accepting the biography of the Prophet and the stories of the campaigns at they were received by later generations without the meticulous care or the application of the critical criteria which collectors of traditions or jurists employed. It was not necessary to check the veracity of authorities when transmitting or recording parts of the story of the Prophet's life.14 It was not essential to provide a continuous chain of authorities or even to give authorities at all. That is obvious in Ibn Ishaq's Sira. On the other hand reliable authority and a continuous line of transmission were essential when law was the issue. That is why Malik the jurist had no regard for Ibn Ishaq.15
One finds, therefore, that later historians and even exegetes either repeat the very words of Ibn Ishaq or else abbreviate the whole story. Historians gave it, as it were, a cold reception. Even Tabari, nearly 150 years after Ibn Ishaq, does not try to find other versions of the story as he usually does. He casts doubt by his use of the words, "Waqidi alleged (za'ama) that the Prophet caused trenches to be dug." Ibn ai-Qayyim in Zad al-ma'ad makes only the briefest reference and he ignores altogether the crucial question of numbers. Ibn Kathir even seems to have general doubt in his mind because he takes the trouble to point out that the story was told on such "good authority" as that of 'A'isha.16
Apart from mild complacency or doubtful acceptance of the story itself, Ibn Ishaq as an author was in fact subjected to devastating attacks by scholars, contemporary or later, on two particular accounts. One was his uncritical inclusion in his Sira of so much spurious or forged poetry;17 the other his unquestioning acceptance of just such a story as that of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza.
His contemporary, the early traditionist and jurist Malik, called him unequivocally "a liar" and "an impostor"18 "who transmits his stories from the Jews".19 In other words, applying his own criteria, Malik impugned the veracity of Ibn Ishaq's sources and rejected his approach. Indeed, neither Ibn Ishaq's list of informants nor his method of collecting and piecing together such a story would he acceptable to Malik the jurist.
In a later age Ibn Hajar further explained the point of Malik's condemnation of Ibn Ishaq. Malik, he said,20 condemned Ibn Ishaq because he made a point of seeking out descendants of the Jews of Medina in order to obtain from them accounts of the Prophet's campaigns as handed down by their forefathers. Ibn Hajar21 then rejected the stories in question in the strongest terms: "such odd tales as the story of Qurayza and al-Nadir". Nothing could be more ****ing than this outright rejection.
Against the late and uncertain sources on the one hand, and the condemning authorities on the other, must be set the only contemporary and entirely authentic source, the Qur'an. There the reference in Sura XXXIII, 26 is very brief: "He caused those of the People of the Book who helped them (i.e. the Quraysh) to come out of their forts. Some you killed, some you took prisoner."
Exegetes and traditionalists tend simply to repeat Ibn Ishaq's tale, but in the Qur'an the reference can only be to those who were actually in the fighting. This is a statement about the battle. It concerns those who fought. Some of these were killed, others were taken prisoner.
One would think that if 600 or 900 people were killed in this manner the significance of the event would have been greater. There would have been a clearer reference in the Qur'an, a conclusion to be drawn, and a lesson to be learnt. But when only the guilty leaders were executed, it would be normal to expect only a brief reference.
So much for the sources: they were neither uninterested nor trustworthy; and the report was very late in time.
Now for the story. The reasons for rejecting the story are the following:

[1] As already stated above, the reference to the story in the Qur'an is extremely brief, and there is no indication whatever of the killing of a large number. In a battle context the reference is to those who were actually fighting. The Qur'an is the only authority which the historian would accept without hesitation or doubt. It is a contemporary text, and, for the most cogent reasons, what we have is the authentic version.
[2] The rule in Islam is to punish only those who were responsible for the sedition.
[3] To kill such a large number is diametrically opposed to the Islamic sense of justice and to the basic principles laid down in the Qur'an - particularly the verse. "No soul shall bear another's burden."22 It is obvious in the story that the leaders were numbered and were well known. They were named.
[4] It is also against the Qur'anic rule regarding prisoners of war, which is: either they are to be granted their freedom or else they are to be allowed to be ransomed.23
[5] It is unlikely that the Banu Qurayza should be slaughtered when the other Jewish groups who surrendered before Banu Qurayza and after them were treated leniently and allowed to go. Indeed Abu 'Ubayd b. Sallam relates in his Kitab al-amwal24 that when Khaybar felt to the Muslims there were among the residents a particular family or clan who had distinguished themselves by excessive unseemly abuse of the Prophet. Yet in that hour the Prophet addressed them in words which are no more than a rebuke: "Sons of Abu al-Huqayq (he said to them) I have known the extent of your hostility to God and to His apostle, yet that does not prevent me from treating you as I treated your brethren." That was after the surrender of Banu Qurayza.
[6] If indeed so many hundreds of people had actually been put to death in the market-place, and trenches were dug for the operation, it is very strange that there should be no trace whatever of all that - no sign or word to point to the place, and no reference to a visible mark.25
[7] Had this slaughter actually happened, jurists would have adopted it as a precedent. In fact exactly the opposite has been the case. The attitude of jurists, and their rulings, have been more according to the Qur'anic rule in the verse, "No soul shall bear another's burden."
[8] Indeed, Abu 'Ubayd b. Sallam relates a very significant incident in his book Kifab al-amwal,26 which, it must be noted, is a book of jurisprudence, of law, not a sira or a biography. He tells us that in the time of the Imam al-Awza'i27 there was a case of trouble among a group of the People of the Book in the Lebanon when 'Abdullab b. 'All was regional governor. He put down the sedition and ordered the community in question to be moved elsewhere. Al-Awza'i in his capacity as the leading jurist immediately objected. His argument was that the incident was not the result of the community's unanimous agreement. "At far as I know (he argued) it is not a rule of God that God should punish the many for the fault of the few but punish the few for the fault of the many."
[9] Now, had the Imam al-Awza'i accepted the story of the slaughter of Banu Qurayza, he would have treated it as a precedent, and would not have come out with an argument against Authority, represented in 'Abdullah b. 'Ali. Al-Awza'i, it should be remembered, was a younger contemporary of Ibn Ishaq.
[10] In the story of Qurayza a few specific persons were named as having been put to death, some of whom were described as particularly active in their hostility. It is the reasonable conclusion that those were the ones who led the sedition and who were consequently punished - not the whole tribe.
[11] The details given in the story clearly and of necessity imply inside knowledge, i.e. from among the Jews themselves. Such are the details of their consultation when they were besieged, the harangue of Ka'b b. Asad as their leader; and the suggestion that they should kill their women and children and then make a last desperate attack against the Muslims.
[12] Just as the descendants of Qurayza would want to glorify their ancestors, so did the descendants of the Madanese connected with the event. One notices that that part of the story which concerned the judgment of Sa'd b. Mu'adh against Qurayza, was transmitted from one of his direct descendants. According to this part the Prophet said to Mu'adh: "You have pronounced God's judgment upon them [as inspired] through Seven Veils."28
[13] Now it is well known that for the purposes of glorifying their ancestors or white washing those who were inimical to Islam at the beginning, many stories were invented by later generations and a vast amount of verse was forged, much of which was transmitted by Ibn Ishaq. The story and the statement concerning Sa'd are one such detail.
[14] Other details are difficult to accept. How could so many hundreds of persons he incarcerated in the house belonging to a woman of Banu al-Najjar?29
[15] The history of the Jewish tribes after the establishment of Islam is not really clear at all. The idea that they all departed on the spot seems to be in need of revision, as can be seen on examining the sources. For example, in his Jamharat al-ansab,30 Ibn Hazm occasionally refers to Jews still living in Medina. In two places al-Waqidi31 mentions Jews who were still in Medina when the Prophet prepared to march against Khaybar - i.e. after the supposed liquidation of all three tribes, including Qurayza. In one case ten Madanese Jews actually joined the Prophet in an excursion to Khaybar, and in the other the Jews who had made their peace with him in Medina were extremely worried when he prepared to attack Khaybar. Al-Waqadi explains that they tried to prevent the departure of any Muslim who owed them money.

Indeed Ibn Kathir32 takes the trouble to point out that 'Umar expelled only those Jews of Khaybar who had not made a peace agreement with the Prophet. Ibn Kathir then proceeds to explain that at a much later date, i.e. after the year 300 A.H., the Jews of Khaybar claimed that they had in their possession a document allegedly given them by the Prophet which exempted them from poll-tax. He said that some scholars were taken in by this document so that they ruled that the Jews of Khaybar should be exempted. However, that was a forged letter and had been refuted in detail. It quoted persons who were already dead, it used technical terms which came into being at a later time, it claimed that Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan witnessed it, when in fact he had not even been converted to Islam at that time, and so on.
So then the real source of this unacceptable story of slaughter was the descendants of the Jews of Medina, from whom Ibn Ishaq took these "odd tales". For doing so Ibn Ishaq was severely criticized by other scholars and historians and was called by Malik an impostor.
The sources of the story are, therefore, extremely doubtful and the details are diametrically opposed to the spirit of Islam and the rules of the Qur'an to make the story credible. Credible authority is lacking, and circumstantial evidence does not support it. This means that the story is more than doubtful.
However, the story, in my view, has its origins in earlier events. Is can be shown that it reproduces similar stories which survived from the account of the Jewish rebellion against the Romans, which ended in the destruction of the temple in the year AD. 73, the night of the Jewish zealots and sicarii to the rock fortress of Masada, and the final liquidation of the besieged. Stories of their experience were naturally transmitted by Jewish survivors who fled south. Indeed one of the more plausible theories of the origin of the Jews of Medina is that they came after the Jewish wars. This was the theory preferred by the late Professor Guillaume.33
As is well known, the source of the details of the Jewish wars is Flavius Josephus, himself a Jew and a contemporary witness who held office under the Romans, who disapproved of certain actions which some of the rebels committed, but who nevertheless never ceased to be a Jew at heart. It is in his writings that we read of details which are closely similar to those transmitted to us in the Sira about the actions and the resistance of the Jews, except that now we see the responsibility for the actions placed on the Muslims.
In considering details of the story of Banu Qurayza as told by the descendants of that tribe, we may note the following similar details in the account of Josephus:
(i) According to Josephus,34 Alexander, who ruled in Jerusalem before Herod the Great, hung upon crosses 800 Jewish captives, and slaughtered their wives and children before their eyes.
(ii) Similarly, large numbers were killed by others.
(iii) Important details of the two stories are remarkably similar, particularly the numbers of those killed. At Masada the number of those who died at the end was 960.35 The hot-headed sicarii who were eventually also killed numbered 600.36 We also read that when they reached the point of despair they were addressed by their leader Eleazar (precisely as Ka'b b. Asad addressed the Banu Qurayza),37 who suggested to them the killing of their women and children. At the ultimate point of complete despair the plan of killing each other to the last man was proposed.

Clearly the similarity of details is most striking. Not only are the suggestions of mass suicide similar but even the numbers are almost the same. Even the same names occur in both accounts. There is Phineas, and Azar b. Azar,38 just as Eleazar addressed the Jews besieged in Masada.
There is, indeed, more than a mere similarity. Here we have the prototype - indeed, I would suggest, the origin of the story of Banu Qurayza, preserved by descendants of the Jews who fled south to Arabia after the Jewish Wars, just as Josephus recorded the same story for the Classical world. A later generation of these descendants superimposed details of the siege of Masada on the story of the siege of Banu Qurayza, perhaps by confusing a tradition of their distant past with one from their less remote history. The mixture provided Ibn Ishaq's story. When Muslim historians ignored it or transmitted it without comment or with cold lack of interest, they only expressed lack of enthusiasm for a strange tale, as Ibn Hajar called it.
One last point: Since the above was first written, I have seen reports39 of a paper given in August 1973 at the World Congress of Jewish Studies by Dr. Trude Weiss-Rosmarin, in which she challenges Josephus' assertion that 960 besieged Jews committed suicide at Masada. This is highly interesting since in the story of Qurayza the 960 or so Jews refused to commit suicide. Who knows, perhaps the Story of Banu Qurayza is an even more accurate form of the original version.

Footnotes:
1. Ibn Ishaq, Sira (ed. Wustenfeld, Gottingen, 1860), 545-7; (ed. Saqqa et al., Cairo, 1955), II, 47-9. See also al-Waqidi, Kitab al-maghazi (ed. M. Jones, London, 1966), II, 440 ff.; Suhayl, al-Rawd al-unuf (Cairo, 1914), I, 187 et passim; Ibn Kathir, al-Sira al-Nabawiya (ed. Mustafa `Abd al-Wahid, Cairo, 1384-5/1964-6), II, 5, et passim.
2. Sira, 545-56, 652-61/II, 51-7, 190-202; Ibn Kathir, oop. cit., III, 145 ff.
3. Sira, 755-76, 779/II, 328-53, 356, etc. More on Khaybar follows below.
4. ibid., 776/II, 353-4.
5. ibid., 668-84/II, 214-33.
6. ibid., 684-700/II, 233-54.
7. ibid., 689/II, 240; `Uyun al-athar (Cairo, 1356 A.H.), II, 73; Ibn Kathir, II, 239.
8. In his introduction to `Uyun al-athar, I, 7, Ibn Sayyid al-Nas (d. 734 A.H.), having explained his plan for his biography of the Prophet, expressly states that his main source was Ibn Ishaq, who indeed was the chief source for everyone.
9. Tahdhib al-tahdhib, IX, 45. See also `Uyun al-athar, I, 17, where the author uses the same words, without giving a reference, in his introduction on the veracity of Ibn Ishaq and the criteria he applied.
10. d. 179.
11. `Uyun al-athar, I, 12.
12. ibid, I, 16.
13. Sira, 691-2/II, 242, 244; `Uyun al-athar, II, 74, 75.
14. Ibn Sayyid al-Nas (op. cit., I, 121) makes precisely this point in relation to the story of the Banu Qaynuqa' and the spurious verse which was said to have appeared in Sura LIII of the Qur'an and at the time was taken by polytheist Meccans as a recognition of their deities. The author explains how various scholars disposed of the problem and then sums up by stating that in his view, this story is to be treated on the same level as tales of the maghazi and accounts of the Sira (i.e. not to be accorded unqualified acceptance). Most scholars, he asserts, usually treated more liberally questions of minor importance and any material which did not involve a point of law, such as stories of the maghazi and similar reports. In such cases data would be accepted which would not be acceptable as a basis of deciding what is lawful or unlawful.
15. See n. 18 below.
16. Tabari, Tarikh, I, 1499 (where the reference is to al-Waqidi, Maghazi, II, 513); Zad al-ma`ad (ed. T. A. Taha, Cairo, 1970), II, 82; Ibn Kathir, op. cit., IV, 118.
17. On this see W. Arafat, "Early critics of the poetry of the Sira", BSOAS, XXI, 3, 1958, 453-63.
18. Kadhdhab and Dajjal min al-dajajila.
19. `Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7. In his valuable introduction Ibn Sayyid al-Nas provides a wide-ranging survey of the controversial views on Ibn Ishaq. In his full introduction to the Gottingen edition of the Sira, Wustenfeld in turn draws extensively on Ibn Sayyid al-Nas.
20. Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, IX, 45. See also `Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7.
21. ibid.
22. Qur'an, XXXV, 18.
23. Qur'an, XLI, 4.
24. ed. Khalil Muhammad Harras, Cairo, 1388/1968, 241.
25. Significantly, little or no information is to be found in general or special geographical dictionaries, such as al-Bakri's, Mu`jam ma'sta`jam; al-Fairuzabadi's al-Maghanim al-mutaba fi ma`alim taba (ed. Hamad al-Jasir, Dar al-Yamama, 1389/1969); Six treatises (Rasa'il fi tarikh al-Madina ed. Hamad al-Jasir, Dar al-Yamama, 1392/1972); al-Samhudi, Wafa' al-wafa' bi-akhbar dar al-Mustafa (Cairo, 1326), etc. Even al-Samhudi seems to regard a mention of the market-place in question as a mere historical reference, for in his extensive historical topography of Medina he identifies the market-place (p. 544) almost casually in the course of explaining the change in nomenclature which had overtaken adjacent landmarks. That market-place, he says, is the one referred to in the report (sic) that the Prophet brought out the prisoners of Banu Qurayza to the market-place of Medina, etc.
26. p. 247. I am indebted to my friend Professor Mahmud Ghul of the American University, Beirut, for bringing this reference to my attention.
27. d. 157/774. See EI2, sub nomine.
28. Sira, 689/II, 240; al-Waqidi, op. cit., 512.
29. Sira, 689/II, 240; Ibn Kathir, op. cit., III, 238.
30. e.g., Nasab Quraysh (ed. A. S. Harun, Cairo, 1962), 340.
31. op. cit., II, 634, 684.
32. op. cit., III, 415.
33. A. Guillaume, Islam (Harmondsworth, 1956), 10-11.
34. De bello Judaico, I, 4, 6.
35. ibid., VII, 9, 1.
36. ibid., VII, 10, 1.
37. Sira, 685-6/II, 235-6.
38. Sira, 352, 396/I, 514, 567.
39. The Times, 18 August 1973; and The Guardian, 20 August 1973.
Reply

GuestFellow
08-09-2009, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I am talking about the beheading not war. People die in war, thats part of it, beheading 6-7 hundred people is mass-murder.
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Cough, misconception, cough.

In all actuality, Muhammad [pbuh] did not actually behead ANY jews....it was carried out by some other dude, who quoted the punishment from deuteronomy - since the ''victims'' were Jewish and were given the punishment laid down by their own book.

I find it rather ironic how you ask others to read books on certain matters and then you drop that really big misconception (or should I say, complete and utter lie) into the discussion...which makes me doubt the content of your other posts...


Now, let's get back on topic.
I think brother aamirsaab has...already clarified this....
Reply

جوري
08-09-2009, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Axes were.:raging:

You can behead people with all kinds of things.
which is swift and merciful? the sharp blade of a sword or the dull one of an axe?
Reply

GuestFellow
08-09-2009, 02:40 AM
This topic is confusing. Are we talking about Islamic history or Israel/Palestine conflict?
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-09-2009, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Then either you or that guy is wrong.
Ok 1) yes the jews were killed at one point but the tribe the other guy is taking about is the wrong tribe, it was the jews of the tribe of Bani Qaynuqa who killed one of the muslims.

2) It was the tribe of Benu Quraydah who were killed not by the Prophet :saws: but by one of the companions because of their breaking the treaty.
Reply

Clover
08-09-2009, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
which is swift and merciful? the sharp blade of a sword or the dull one of an axe?
Not all axes are dull, and I don't know how you get at that, but ok.

It doesn't matter, death is death, I know I'd prefer my sword be sharp if I was going to commit Seppuku, I would want a sharp blade, whether it's a sword or not I do not care.

format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I think brother aamirsaab has...already clarified this....
I was looking at a different guy's say. Sorry that I asked.
Reply

GuestFellow
08-09-2009, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I was looking at a different guy's say. Sorry that I asked.
Oh I see. No need to say sorry. I thought you didn't noticed.
Reply

جوري
08-09-2009, 02:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
This topic is confusing. Are we talking about Islamic history or Israel/Palestine conflict?
some people need to understand history in order to understand the present.. though undoubtedly some just don't like to read so there is no point.. nonetheless.. it is good for the Muslims on board who are not middle eastern in origin to understand something about the history of the region..

:w:
Reply

Clover
08-09-2009, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
some people need to understand history in order to understand the present.. though undoubtedly some just don't like to read so there is no point.. nonetheless.. it is good for the Muslims on board who are not middle eastern in origin to understand something about the history of the region..

:w:
It is good for anyone to learn origin of anything anywhere. Education is key to stopping ignorance. :)
Reply

جوري
08-09-2009, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Not all axes are dull, and I don't know how you get at that, but ok.

It doesn't matter, death is death, I know I'd prefer my sword be sharp if I was going to commit Seppuku, I would want a sharp blade, whether it's a sword or not I do not care.

you cover more surface area with a sword that you don't get with an axe unless you want to chop someone in intervals .. you are right death is death, as we say in Arabic.. ta3dadat al'asbab wal'mawt wahid..
Many are the ways but death is one!
Reply

GuestFellow
08-09-2009, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
some people need to understand history in order to understand the present.. though undoubtedly some just don't like to read so there is no point.. nonetheless.. it is good for the Muslims on board who are not middle eastern in origin to understand something about the history of the region..

:w:
Salaam.

I think the current Israel/Palestine conflict has more to do with the Zionist political movement and how they used the Holocaust to justify taking Palestine and putting palestinian citizens into military control.

What I find worrying that top officals in the Zionist movement were former terrorists and one of them became the President of Israel.

Peace.
Reply

Clover
08-09-2009, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
you cover more surface area with a sword that you don't get with an axe unless you want to chop someone in intervals .. you are right death is death, as we say in Arabic.. ta3dadat al'asbab wal'mawt wahid..
Many are the ways but death is one!
Again, Not neccessarily. Their are some axes that are hugely wide, like as long as my stomach. If I had to choose a weapon to commit Seppuku with, I would choose either Katana, or a very sharp battle axe. Of course, when it comes to it, it means little what you use. It's the act that is meant.
Reply

alcurad
08-09-2009, 02:54 AM
^you can't carry all that weight around and swing it for long, not practical, some Frenchies back a couple of centuries used to throw their axes at the enemy instead of spears, that works.
otherwise a spear is the best weapon to kill, as Alexander proved. or the nuke, but that's expensive, Seppuku with a nuke is a good way to go. seppuku is overrated at that.

Avigdor Lieberman is a very sad example of the continuous radicalization of Israeli society. furthermore he seems to have a lot of support nowadays, if he or one of his ilk gains president-hood Iran will be bombed, then the word holocaust might have another meaning..sad I say, but this world is not for the weak or ineffectual.
we need to stop those shortsighted idiots before it's too late.
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جوري
08-09-2009, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Salaam.

I think the current Israel/Palestine conflict has more to do with the Zionist political movement and how they used the Holocaust to justify taking Palestine and putting palestinian citizens into military control.

What I find worrying that top officals in the Zionist movement were former terrorists and one of them became the President of Israel.

Peace.
yup, Israel was founded on terrorist organizations, the Haganah, irgun and stern gang, who ironically bombed even the british 'good well ambassadors' that were sent to aid them assimilate (siege and take) our lands.. they have forced other Jewish Arabs into Palestine by scare tactice to foce them into their settlement-- you may read about it here:

http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupatio..._iraqjews.html
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Periwinkle
08-09-2009, 08:05 AM
GossamerSkye:-

You and Anti Karate Kid were busily denying that there were Jewish tribes in Arabia -this is recorded by your own historian Ibn Ishaq in Sirat Rasul Allah. Recorded in this biography of Muhammed is a lot of what you so vehemently deny - so you still think that Islam has ruled Palestine for 1500 years and that there were no Jewish tribes in Arabia?
But I now see that you finally admit it as so many other posters have referenced the fate of the Jews in Medina - perhaps you should read of the fate of the other Jewish tribes in Arabia. But all you can do is copy and paste anthropology and a lecture based on one (just one) persons view on the subject and personal abuse. How sad!


The Prince:-

So you too, have not read Sirat Rasul Allah?
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Periwinkle
08-09-2009, 09:06 AM
AAdil:-

Another poster who hasn't read Mohammed's biography - many of these things were not mentioned in the Quran. Jews and muslims in no way lived peacefully in the Prophet's time. Mohammed evicted whole villages of the Jews and claimed their land and chattels for the muslims as booty. One fifth for Mohammed and the rest for the troops.
Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq will put you straight.

Abd-al Latif:-

Jizyah is definitely not like a peace treaty - it was an inhuman tax, paid monthly and designed to suppress non muslims, many of whom converted because they could not live under such conditions - go and read how Christians had to wear blue patches, and Jews yellow patches. Remind you of something? Remind you of something? There were so many restrictions on non muslims - for too many to relate here.

Muslim lands became muslim lands only because the muslim Arabs left Arabia in the 600's and conquered them, you thinking seems a bit fuzzy here. Before that they were mainly Christian lands. Iran was Zoroastrian, India-Hindu.

Jews are still around because, as you know, they were expelled from Arabia and found other countries to live in.

The Jews that were beheaded in Medina were prisoners that the muslims had taken when they beseiged their strongholds for over three weeks and the Jews had surrendered. Mohammed then asked another muslim, who had been wounded in the battle the Prophets men had just fought with the muslims of Mecca, to pronounce judgement on the tribe. The judgement was that all boys who had reached puberty and all the males of the Jewish tribe were to be beheaded. The women and girls were enslaved and as usual the property and chattels went to the muslims.

P.S. Can you tell me where in the Quran Jerusalem is mentioned? I know the muslims prayed in that direction because, as in so many other things, they copied the Jews. But when Mohammud realised the Jews were never going to convert he changed the direction of prayer to Mecca. Jerusalem was not a holy place to muslims until the late 600s when the muslims built the dome of the rock over the ruined Jewish temple after they invaded Palestine. Jerusalem was only holy to the muslims because they knew the Christians and Jews worshipped there.
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Ummu Sufyaan
08-09-2009, 09:17 AM
*finally got banned*
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'Abd-al Latif
08-09-2009, 11:50 AM
Shame. I was writing a response to her false claims.
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Ummu Sufyaan
08-09-2009, 12:01 PM
^still post it, someone else could learn from it.
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Trumble
08-09-2009, 12:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
*finally got banned*
Undeserved. Right or wrong she was a lot more patient, respectful and polite in presenting her views than certain people still here. Not impressed. Sorry, but

But all you can do is copy and paste anthropology and a lecture based on one (just one) persons view on the subject and personal abuse
was spot on.
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aamirsaab
08-09-2009, 12:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Undeserved. Right or wrong she was a lot more patient, respectful and polite than certain people still here.

Not impressed. Sorry, but



was spot on.
:sl:
She was banned for spreading misconceptions and blatant lies against Islam, Muhammad [saw] and muslims (all of which can and have been refuted years ago....in books!). Not to mention blatant hypocrisy:
[paraphrasing]
''all you do is copy and paste from one source...you should read XYZ person's view instead!'' [/paraphrasing]
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Ummu Sufyaan
08-09-2009, 12:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Undeserved. Right or wrong she was a lot more patient, respectful and polite in presenting her views than certain people still here.
disagreed. read any of her other posts in other threads?
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'Abd-al Latif
08-09-2009, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Undeserved. Right or wrong she was a lot more patient, respectful and polite in presenting her views than certain people still here. Not impressed. Sorry, but
Her intention was to spread falsehood because people like myself, like many other muslims, hear the same things repeating and regardless of how hard you try to clear these misconceptions those people stubbornly refuse to listen. So her actions are patient and respectful in your view, but twisting information to annoy others was what the rest could see.

How can she be so certain of herself when the Muslims - the people practicing this religion - are giving every evidence to prove her wrong? She's judged a book by it's cover.

The issue regarding the Jizyah is put to an end in this thread http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1198834 while Jerusalem is mentioned indirectly in the Qur'an in Chapter 17, verse 1.

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things). [17:1]

The farthest Mosque means Jerusalem, or more specifically the mosque itself. I find it interesting that she speaks as though she is speaking on behalf of the Muslims, I wonder who gave her that right!

I'll post the refutation regarding her baseless comment on 'when Mohammud realised the Jews were never going to convert he changed the direction of prayer to Mecca. Jerusalem was not a holy place to muslims until the late 600s when the muslims built the dome of the rock over the ruined Jewish temple after they invaded Palestine. Jerusalem was only holy to the muslims because they knew the Christians and Jews worshipped there.' in another thread.
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GuestFellow
08-09-2009, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Undeserved. Right or wrong she was a lot more patient, respectful and polite in presenting her views than certain people still here. Not impressed. Sorry, but was spot on.
Ah it was pretty obvious that she was a liar. Read some of her posts. Doesn't take a genius to work that out.
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Zafran
08-09-2009, 02:49 PM
Heres a few hypocritical remarks

Muslim lands became muslim lands only because the muslim Arabs left Arabia in the 600's and conquered them, you thinking seems a bit fuzzy here. Before that they were mainly Christian lands. Iran was Zoroastrian, India-Hindu.
how did those lands become christain in the first place?

Jizyah is definitely not like a peace treaty - it was an inhuman tax, paid monthly and designed to suppress non muslims, many of whom converted because they could not live under such conditions - go and read how Christians had to wear blue patches, and Jews yellow patches. Remind you of something? Remind you of something? There were so many restrictions on non muslims - for too many to relate here
Jews were also forced to wear different clothes in christian europe - later ofcourse there was the inquistion and much harsher treatment- they also couldnt do amny things eg own land - so much that Jews actually ran away from christain lands and settled in places like Morroco, and the Ottoman empire. The Jizya is also exaggerrated - Conversion took many years (100s) of the whole muslim world beacsue non muslims could keep there own heritage and religion under Muslim lands generally - thats why there are still non muslims living in muslim lands

In europe it would be very hard to live as a muslim until the 19th century - or even later to the 20th century - there was little tolerance of anybody that wasnt christain.

P.S. Can you tell me where in the Quran Jerusalem is mentioned? I know the muslims prayed in that direction because, as in so many other things, they copied the Jews. But when Mohammud realised the Jews were never going to convert he changed the direction of prayer to Mecca. Jerusalem was not a holy place to muslims until the late 600s when the muslims built the dome of the rock over the ruined Jewish temple after they invaded Palestine. Jerusalem was only holy to the muslims because they knew the Christians and Jews worshipped there.
this is all Bull**** and theres no other nice way to put it - she forgets to tell you that the Byznatine christians didnt let the Jews near the place and used the temple mount as a dumping site. Jerusalem or more specifically the furthest Mosque is Masjid Al Asqa and prophet Muhammad pbuh travelled there in the night Journey also known as Al Isra

Just to top it She used Hadiths/Islamic sources to prove that Jews lived in arabia - the Hadiths also talk about the prophets Journey to Jerusalem and that its the second oldest sanctury after Mecca - If your going to use muslim sources then you shouldnt have a problem with the prophet Muhammad pbuh going to jerusalem in the night journey.

Hypocricy and more Hypocricy, tut, tut, tut.

The famous Bani Qureyza tribe broke the treaty in the first place and there own law was used against them - Jizya had nothing to do with the treaty.
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alcurad
08-09-2009, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
although the story itself is quite well known, a small fact about the story of Banu Qurayzah is not oft mentioned: it is based on dubious sources. see the last part of this document http://www.witness-pioneer.org/VScho...s%20killed.doc
I need to post this in every page it seems :/ I don't think the ban was necessary though, since refuting the points would've been more effective.
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Muezzin
08-09-2009, 05:38 PM
Guys, we need to get back to the original topic.

The proper place for discussion/complaints about moderators' actions is the private message inbox of the moderator concerned.
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جوري
08-09-2009, 05:38 PM
Hope she can still read this as she seems to have a reading and/or comprehension impediment. Indeed the only history about banu quryzah is recorded by early Muslims, I am simply asking were it not for islamic sources how she would have known about them at all, and developed her very erroneous and fabricated secondary opinion on what allegedly happened?

She seems to forget the 70 hafith sent to them which they have murdered, and forgets that they have started the act of betrayal and forgets that the punishment imposed is the one of their choosing from the Torah. Or does she think the Muslims up and went for an unprovoked kill one day.. why not do that in the beginning if it were a mere desire to eradicate them?

then enraged at best when the correct view is presented her. She in fact doesn't wish to read but hold on to her hateful and malicious views. I am rather surprised she lasted this long. In fact every article presented here, had more than one source, majority of them non-Islamic.
Would also love for her to reconcile the Jewish tribes being in Arabia when Abraham allegedly never been to the region as per their bible.. else God forbid that would mean it was Ishmael being sacrificed not Issac. After all if we are speaking of politics, it should be espoused by some religious motives?

The least any decent public forum do is make sure they disseminate correct information..
by the way if you don't like how this was handled, though it wasn't handled by my person, you are most certainly free to join her!
She has alot of free time on her hand which she enjoys spending in a cesspool and she should indeed be able to enjoy that on her own free time. She will annihilated here, if people actually dedicated the time to humor cockroaches!
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جوري
08-09-2009, 06:01 PM
another quick note: about the alleged christians in the region. In the time preceding Islam the region was thoroughly antagonistic to any religious reformation. For centuries the cult of pagan worship was set in the face of Jewish settlements and foreign attempts of evangelization. William Muir argued that the Jewish presence deterred from evangelization in two ways, by establishing itself in the north and the pagan stronghold in the south.

The true fact is christianity of the 7th century was itself mired in corruption and myth and in a state of complete stagnation. Formally submitting the region to christianity would have required more than religious persuasion but political coercion of superior powers and no such power bore down on the region. Five centuries of Christian evangelism had bore down a meager results and were limited to Banu Harith of Najran and Banu hanifah of yamama. No historical record do not show a single incident of persecution toward the christians.

Again, I am at a loss as to where she gets her info from, for even the orientalists and staunch anti Muslims seem to have a completely opposing views to hers.
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جوري
08-09-2009, 06:12 PM
on a completely separate and unrelated note, her views on Medical Euthanasia were incredibly erroneous, Medicine is a separate field from politics, and she couldn't make cohesive sense of what she was saying in reconciliation with medical ethics , would have in fact gotten away with it to if people didn't actually understand the meaning of advance directive and end of life care. Here is a woman who thinks the medical profession is meant to put people to death because that would be oh so humane.. she doesn't know the first thing about medical ethics yet dispenses opinion left and right, try to parallel that to her views on politics.

Being skewed on that end should really have been a telling presentation of things to come.

When it comes to history or science try to present things factually. As the saying goes opinions are like assholes every one has one there is no reason to actually be one!...

If I were interested in mere opinions then one is as good as the next.. we should however be weary of the information we push out as facts. I noticed that none of her comments here were backed from any source trusted or untrusted. Perhaps that form of hate blogging is popular where she comes from. But this forum has standards. At least I hope so, if it has a desire for longevity and decent members!
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-09-2009, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Undeserved. Right or wrong she was a lot more patient, respectful and polite in presenting her views than certain people still here. Not impressed. Sorry, but



was spot on.
WRONG. She was insulting too! Not just here but wherever she walks in with her dirty shoes. Question is, did you bother to notice? She felt it was oh so totally like "awesome" to lie and lie! BAN is perfect. Insulting and lying through her dirty teeth. Good job.
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AntiKarateKid
08-10-2009, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Undeserved. Right or wrong she was a lot more patient, respectful and polite in presenting her views than certain people still here. Not impressed. Sorry, but



was spot on.
Mindless missionaries need to be perma banned. Her BS was the same exact BS you'd see on answering Islam which has been refuted enough times without us doing it over. To respond to it again would encourage nonsense like that to be spread.

No brain = no account

If she's going to be retarded she should cover it up like certain other people here are adept at doing.
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aamirsaab
08-10-2009, 08:46 AM
:sl:
Oooooooooooo kay. Let's try to get back on topic shall we; any further posts that are not will be deleted.

Thanks.
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