Demographic time bomb

[Thinker]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...continent.html

Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.

Jerome Vignon, the director for employment and social affairs at the European Commission, said that the focus of those running the EU had been on asylum seekers and the control of migration rather than the integration of those already in the bloc. "It has certainly been underestimated - there is a general rhetoric that social integration of migrants should be given as much importance as monitoring the inflow of migrants." But, he said, the rhetoric had rarely led to policy.

Since the idea of a ‘multicultural society’ was debunked it was only a matter of time before the question of integration came up and it is (IMHO) a question that will pick up speed like a snow ball rolling down a hill. I wonder how long it will be before the debate will start within and without Islam in Europe on the question of how much, if any, Islam allows any form of integration.

[Uthman]

I made reference to this article in this post.

[Thinker]

I made reference to this article in this post.

Sorry, I did a search using Europe and demographic and it came up blank.

[Uthman]

Sorry, I did a search using Europe and demographic and it came up blank.

No worries - I was just sayin that's all.

Islam does allow integration insofar as Islamic principles are not violated and, in my opinion, that doesn't allow for much integration at all since orthodox Islamic values are clearly at odds with those of mainstream European culture. Orthodox Muslims need to establish a proper Islamic state in the Muslim world and move there - life would be much more easier for everybody.

That's my honest assessment - others may disagree.

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[Amadeus85]

No worries - I was just sayin that's all.

Islam does allow integration insofar as Islamic principles are not violated and, in my opinion, that doesn't allow for much integration at all since orthodox Islamic values are clearly at odds with those of mainstream European culture. Orthodox Muslims need to establish a proper Islamic state in the Muslim world and move there - life would be much more easier for everybody.

That's my honest assessment - others may disagree.

For example to Burrmingham.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Islam does allow integration insofar as Islamic principles are not violated and, in my opinion, that doesn't allow for much integration at all since orthodox Islamic values are clearly at odds with those of mainstream European culture. Orthodox Muslims need to establish a proper Islamic state in the Muslim world and move there - life would be much more easier for everybody.

That's my honest assessment - others may disagree.

Couldn't agree more.

Peace

[alcurad]

that's overly naive though, people stay anywhere they want as land does no belong to any certain religion or even people, rather to individuals, otherwise the Europeans should leave Europe and leave it to the pagans.

[czgibson]

Geetings,

that's overly naive though, people stay anywhere they want as land does no belong to any certain religion or even people, rather to individuals, otherwise the Europeans should leave Europe and leave it to the pagans.

Correct, people should be able to live where they want - as long as they're prepared to respect the laws of the land. If the laws of the land contradict the rules of their religion, then they have to decide which is more important to them.

Peace

[Muezzin]

Geetings,


Correct, people should be able to live where they want - as long as they're prepared to respect the laws of the land. If the laws of the land contradict the rules of their religion, then they have to decide which is more important to them.

Peace

Unless the laws of the land change according to desires of the shifting cultures and peoples within it.

Which, it seems, is the fulcrum upon which this debate rests.

[Intisar]

No worries - I was just sayin that's all.

Islam does allow integration insofar as Islamic principles are not violated and, in my opinion, that doesn't allow for much integration at all since orthodox Islamic values are clearly at odds with those of mainstream European culture. Orthodox Muslims need to establish a proper Islamic state in the Muslim world and move there - life would be much more easier for everybody.

That's my honest assessment - others may disagree.

:sl: I agree.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Unless the laws of the land change according to desires of the shifting cultures and peoples within it.

Which, it seems, is the fulcrum upon which this debate rests.

What sort of changes are you thinking of?

I think you're probably making a good point here, but being rather dense I can't quite see it yet. Could you spell it out for me?

Peace

[جوري]

Unless the laws of the land change according to desires of the shifting cultures and peoples within it.

Which, it seems, is the fulcrum upon which this debate rests.

Very true.. that is what 'democracy' is by definition.. the supreme power lies in a body of citizens.. I am very impressed that another prophecy is coming true and I might in fact enjoy it in my life time if Allah swt wills..

:w:

[aadil77]

I dont think there will ever be a proper islamic state till near the end of time, but nice to hear islam spreading, the imam at our mosque has encouraged families to have as many children as possible to spread islam and strengthen the ummah

If every family has it arab style 10, 20 children then who knows how fast islam will spread. In france you get morrocans and algerians with huge families doing ok in small houses

[Uthman]

I read an interesting article which has caused me to re-evaluate my views on the issue. I posted it here.

[جوري]

I think we need better quality Muslims, not just a quantity issue.. given how many nut cases out there, they count against Islam.. we need to cultivate and foster proper Islam in these new generations insha'Allah...

Anyhoiw, I can't source this right now, but the best army that will rise for Islam will be from the west and Allah swt knows best..

also there is no reason that proper Islamic state shouldn't be established now, firstly we really shouldn't wait for Jesus or the mahdi, we should work on it now a days. and secondly the very end of the world will rise upon really evil people, all religion will be lift off the world and the basest of people will be left that the day of recompense will rise upon people copulating like donkeys on the street (not that, that doesn't happen now) but I imagine it won't be a taboo rather a social norm!

my two cents

:w:

[Muezzin]

Greetings,

What sort of changes are you thinking of?

I think you're probably making a good point here, but being rather dense I can't quite see it yet. Could you spell it out for me?

Peace

Sharia law, or rather the fear of its imposition.

My own density prevents me commenting on others' perceived shortcomings. :)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Sharia law, or rather the fear of its imposition.

Oh. That wasn't what I was expecting. Osman was talking about Muslims living in countries where the culture is contradictory to Islam. Sharia law obviously wouldn't raise any objections from Muslims...

From the other side of the coin, I'm not among those who are afraid that sharia law is about to arrive in Europe - I just can't see it happening.

My own density prevents me commenting on others' perceived shortcomings. :)

;D

I can't wait till you publish your first book. :)

Peace

[Muezzin]

Greetings,


Oh. That wasn't what I was expecting. Osman was talking about Muslims living in countries where the culture is contradictory to Islam. Sharia law obviously wouldn't raise any objections from Muslims...

Well, you mentioned the law of the land which made me think of legal objections etc.

In terms of culture, it seems to be a similar fear - that current British culture will be diluted and degraded (or else simply changed) by the influx of immigrants.

From the other side of the coin, I'm not among those who are afraid that sharia law is about to arrive in Europe - I just can't see it happening.

Neither can I to be honest. People are still afraid of it.

;D

I can't wait till you publish your first book. :)

Peace

I'll consider that a pre-order :p

[Thinker]

I dont think there will ever be a proper islamic state till near the end of time, but nice to hear islam spreading, the imam at our mosque has encouraged families to have as many children as possible to spread islam and strengthen the ummah

If every family has it arab style 10, 20 children then who knows how fast islam will spread. In france you get morrocans and algerians with huge families doing ok in small houses

That’s they way, pump out a dozen kids, bring them up on state benefits, send them to school around the corner where the teachers spend most of their day teaching English as a second language, make sure they spend plenty of time in the mosque meeting up with their brothers to confirm how badly they are treated and how unreasonable it is that the non-muslims have all the wealth and they have none!!

Amazing – you or your parents left a (muslim country) with a culture that brought poverty and insecurity and you came, looking for a better life, to a non-Muslim country, with a culture that had produced prosperity, security and stability and all you want to do is change the country to the same as the one you left!! Please explain that to me?

[Thinker]

Some of you don’t want to integrate, you want to change the British culture to something similar to what you or your parents had in Pakistan. We can identify aspects of the British culture such as the binge drinking and loose morals which are not what we all might want but all in all those people and that culture developed a way of life that has attracted thousand of Muslim migrants. They came and still go to the UK, not because it better for the Imam or deen but because it is better for their individual prosperity, comfort, security and opportunity; in short they come for better access to worldly benefits. What I struggle to understand is the Muslims that want to change the country into the same thing that they left – what happens then do you move on to the next country and ruin that one? Look around you, most of you are living in squalid ghettos, yes it’s better than what you had in Pakistan but surely you left there for something better. I am starting to wonder if you know what you want.

Is there is any aspect of the quality of life you enjoy in the UK that would be improved by changing the culture to that of your forebears?

[Uthman]

Greetings Thinker

Your post doesn't really apply to me, but I found this part of it interesting:

Look around you, most of you are living in squalid ghettos

Are you claiming that most Muslims living in Britain reside in 'squalid ghettos'? If so, what evidence do you have to support this claim? Some statistics, perhaps?

Regards

[Lost&Found]

Greetings Thinker

Your post doesn't really apply to me, but I found this part of it interesting: Are you claiming that most Muslims living in Britain reside in 'squalid ghettos'? If so, what evidence do you have to support this claim? Some statistics, perhaps?

Regards

I'm not sure how credible this is (it is quite old too):

Many Muslims in England face bleak employment prospects and endure poor standards of housing, a government-backed study has found.

The report revealed Muslims were more likely than any other faith group to be jobless and living in poor conditions.

It said 14% of Muslims aged over 25 were unemployed, compared with the national unemployment rate of 4%.

University researchers in Birmingham, Derby, Oxford and Warwick also found Muslims had poorer levels of education.

The study, commissioned to review the prospects of faith communities in England, also said Muslims were more vulnerable to long-term illness.

And one in three lived in the most deprived areas of England.

'Multiple deprivation'

"Taking the Muslim population as a whole, they face some of the most acute conditions of multiple deprivation," the report said.

John Prescott's former department, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM), commissioned the academics to review data on the Hindu, Sikh and Muslim communities.

As well as highlighting the disadvantages suffered, the report found members of these communities were likely to remain concentrated in the same areas.

This was because families wanted to stay close together and many prefer to live near to their places of worship.

Researchers reviewed a variety of data, including information from the 2001 national census.

The government will use the study in its work to encourage equal opportunities for members of all religious communities, a spokeswoman said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4771233.stm

[Uthman]

Thank you, Lost&Found! (I'm glad that you found whatever it is you lost!)

John Prescott's former department, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM), commissioned the academics to review data on the Hindu, Sikh and Muslim communities.

As well as highlighting the disadvantages suffered, the report found members of these communities were likely to remain concentrated in the same areas.

This was because families wanted to stay close together and many prefer to live near to their places of worship.

Researchers reviewed a variety of data, including information from the 2001 national census.

This looks fairly concrete, although it's difficult to draw any conclusions about the extent to which Muslims live together in isolated areas since the findings aren't represented as a figure or percentage. Instead, the word 'likely' is used which is open to interpretation.

Interestingly, the point about Muslims being 'concentrated in the same areas' is also applied to Hindu and Sikh communities in the article. Yet, the emphasis tends to be on Muslims. Thank you for sharing this, in any case.

I am still interested to know the basis upon which Thinker made his assertion. Was he aware of this governmental study?

Regards

[جوري]

^^ I was surprised to learn that Muslims are doing so poorly in England.. they are doing better than the natives in the U.S

I did some research and found this minority report:

http://www.eumap.org/topics/minority...load/uk/uk.pdf


I must admit, I wasn't surprised by this part:

Although this could be taken as evidence of less emphasis being placed
by Muslims on a women’s pursuit of qualifications, it should be noted that the figures
for Muslim women (47 per cent) are still higher than for women nationally (42 per
cent), as well as Christian women (42 per cent) and women with no religion (38 per
cent).
The apparent paradox is that Muslims have a higher than average rate of participation
in post-compulsory education and at the same time have the highest rate of young
people without qualifications. A large part of this, of course, reflects the lack of
educational qualifications among the first generation of migrants.


Anyhow, I am rather disappointed.. I think English Muslims need to shape up, I had a different impression of British Muslims than I have just read...
but then and this is my own personal bias, England seems like a tiny little Island without great opportunities that I am not sure why anyone would seek immigration there? You couldn't fit England into California, isn't that why they went about monopolizing half the world anyway Because looting makes up for the deficiencies inside?...

btw Thinker, why are you currently presiding in Cyprus?

[alcurad]

^I think in the US there is less class based discrimination, not to mention there aren't that many US colonies,thus not much historical antagonism against Muslims although it exists.
also generally Europe is aggressively secularist while Americans are more comfortable with religion.

[جوري]

^I think in the US there is less class based discrimination, not to mention there aren't that many US colonies,thus not much historical antagonism against Muslims although it exists.

I rather think it is just easier to live in a place composed in its entirety of immigrants, the U.S and Canada, maybe Australia (though I don't know the first thing about them) are fairly new without much history.. Europe even with its very dark past has held its own identity for centuries.. There is nothing to integrate into, as they are set in their ways, the same goes with folks who go there as in (first generation immigrants) are also set in their ways. I can't imagine it being easy-- I think I'd feel very uncomfortable there and I personally have an innate aversion for Brits in particular given their history... I still didn't have the same experience as echoed by the report (and surprisingly people were nicer than I had expected) for the most part, other times I found them down right deranged-- but I imagine it is because I was there on short term work exchange, so all the people I have met were similar to me, and secondly-- I don't know any people from 'Asia' in fact I find it odd that Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis etc are referred to as 'Asians' for me the term has always meant folks as you'd encounter in Korea or Hong Kong, china or Japan etc...

But in Islam seeking knowledge is compulsory, so I imagine if the stats are so grim that there is a major hindrance that they are unable to overcome ...

May Allah swt facilitate with ease and make the affairs of the Muslims in England and all over easy for them and on them..

ameen

[alcurad]

...I don't know any people from 'Asia' in fact I find it odd that Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis etc are referred to as 'Asians' for me the term has always meant folks as you'd encounter in Korea or Hong Kong, china or Japan etc...
how stereotypical, alcurad says :shade:

But in Islam seeking knowledge is compulsory, so I imagine if the stats are so grim that there is a major hindrance that they are unable to overcome ...
indeed
May Allah swt facilitate with ease and make the affairs of the Muslims in England and all over easy for them and on them..
ameen
ameen

'tis true, we'll conquer the whole thing in less than a half a century anyway, so no worries. conquer it with love she said :/

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9668 the writer tries to makes sense of the situation back in 2007.

[جوري]

'tis true, we'll conquer the whole thing in less than a half a century anyway, so no worries. conquer it with love :p

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9668 i read this back two years ago. the writer is from Yale for some reason.

that is exactly it, I was really disheartened to know that, it isn't the case for European Muslims.. I kind of took it for granted that they were equally affluent and well off... but still it isn't too late for them to make a turn around I hope...:hmm:


:w:

[Amadeus85]

Some of you don’t want to integrate, you want to change the British culture to something similar to what you or your parents had in Pakistan. We can identify aspects of the British culture such as the binge drinking and loose morals which are not what we all might want but all in all those people and that culture developed a way of life that has attracted thousand of Muslim migrants.

I think that this is the problem, because do even the Englanders know what is the english culture? Do the Brits know what is the brittish culture? I think that they forgot, the schools forget it to avoid hurting feelings of "minorities", the political correct philosophers told you to leave it, and prepare to live in UK that has no one, brittish culture, but many cultures.
From the other hand, someone could say that current brittish culture is going to bars and watching footbal at tv or stadium. Ok, I wont judge it, I won't say if this is something valuable or not, but lets be honest, a culture, civilization based on drinking beer and watching sports doesnt have bright future. How many years you can live like that, 30, 40, 50? The culture is based on religion, so the biggest mistake of UK is a secular country (just like big mistake of my country, Poland, is a secular country). In secular UK, you are afraid of 2 millions muslims, in English christian state (how proud it sounds), you wouldnt have to be afraid of 10 million muslims. The secular state, religious freedom, separation between Church and state (which doesnt mean that Church and state used to be same, one body, but they were cooperating as two different bodies) are things that will bring us down, unless we change it. We have a 1 000 year history of other, divine system, which agreed that political power comes from God and the state and Church are two swords of the Christ to help the people to get salvation. These were glorious days when the truth was based on God's law, not on people's opinion. When the evil was condemned and the truth was held high. So those who really want to oppose islamization of Europe must be aware that here will be either christian, either islamic state. There is no other option, even for the protestants. We catholics say that for our countries the choice is either Church or death. Are europeans ready for this now? Not, we cant fool ourselves, they prefer gay parades and free sex ala animals. But in future, when the Babel Tower, called European Union collapse, among the ruins and dust, when second Reconquista begins, maybe then europeans will udnerstand that there is no other choice, and we must build the true order again.

[Thinker]

Greetings Thinker

Your post doesn't really apply to me, but I found this part of it interesting: Are you claiming that most Muslims living in Britain reside in 'squalid ghettos'? If so, what evidence do you have to support this claim? Some statistics, perhaps?

Regards

Squalor is relative but I would suggest that the ghettos in Leicester, Bradford and Birmingham are relatively squalid. And, I suggest that the majority of Muslims live in those and similar areas.

[Thinker]

It said 14% of Muslims aged over 25 were unemployed, compared with the national unemployment rate of 4%.

University researchers in Birmingham, Derby, Oxford and Warwick also found Muslims had poorer levels of education.

I would like to know what percentage of Muslim professionals (doctors, lawyers etc.,) in the UK sported the regulation fist long beard or wore the burka. With no evidence other than my own eyes I would suggest that it is minute. Why is that?

[Thinker]

^^ I was surprised to learn that Muslims are doing so poorly in England.. they are doing better than the natives in the U.S

btw Thinker, why are you currently presiding in Cyprus?

I believe the difference between UK and US Muslims is their country of origin and standard of education and level of prosperity before they emigrated,

France was too cold and Cyprus offers tax incentives for people like me to live here.

[Uthman]

Greetings Thinker

Squalor is relative but I would suggest that the ghettos in Leicester, Bradford and Birmingham are relatively squalid. And, I suggest that the majority of Muslims live in those and similar areas.

I'm aware of what you're suggesting. My question was regarding the basis upon which you make this suggestion.

Regards

[Thinker]

Greetings Thinker I'm aware of what you're suggesting. My question was regarding the basis upon which you make this suggestion.

Regards

My grandparents (whom I remember) lived in a squalid 2 up 2 down terraced back to back houses with no bathroom and an outside toilet. My parents (father) fought his way out of there and progressed to provide his children with a comfortable life, a university education and prosperous future. I use the word squalid to describe the living conditions of my grandparents because, to me, looking back it was squalid. Many of the Muslim enclaves of Leicester and Bradford appear, to me, very similar if not identical to that occupied by my grandparents. It’s not a very scientific measurement but that’s it. If I lived in that Leicester ghetto, whether I was Muslim or not, I would be striving to get out and provide a more comfort and greater opportunities for my children to attain a more comfortable and more prosperous future for their children. I would be trying to shed the shackles of a culture that provided nothing but poverty and pain not trying to replicate it.

[Muezzin]

My grandparents (whom I remember) lived in a squalid 2 up 2 down terraced back to back houses with no bathroom and an outside toilet. My parents (father) fought his way out of there and progressed to provide his children with a comfortable life, a university education and prosperous future. I use the word squalid to describe the living conditions of my grandparents because, to me, looking back it was squalid. Many of the Muslim enclaves of Leicester and Bradford appear, to me, very similar if not identical to that occupied by my grandparents. It’s not a very scientific measurement but that’s it. If I lived in that Leicester ghetto, whether I was Muslim or not, I would be striving to get out and provide a more comfort and greater opportunities for my children to attain a more comfortable and more prosperous future for their children. I would be trying to shed the shackles of a culture that provided nothing but poverty and pain not trying to replicate it.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Your grandparents and parents, while undoubtedly hard-working and loving people, were not immigrants. If you're an immigrant looking for a better life in a different country, chances are you don't have much going for you in your native country - so when you emigrate, there's that much more to build when you arrive. Climbing the socio-economic ladder is usually the result of the combined work of multiple generations.

The (immigrant) parents or grandparents are trying their best. Some of them may well be qualified up the yazoo in their native countries, but once they come to the UK, they have to (and do) sit further examinations to convert their qualifications into ones accepted in Europe. Many immigrants started businesses here.

It's certain members of my generation who are the problem. Me? I'm educated and qualified. My parents supported and pushed me. The parents of my peers did the same. However, the 'ghetto dwellers' (that is, people who choose to dwell in ghettos because they choose not to educate themselves, choose not to gain any qualifications or meaningful employment or enterprise - not just people who happen to live in a place someone perceives as a ghetto) you seem to be referring to decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want to take that step.

[Zafran]

My grandparents (whom I remember) lived in a squalid 2 up 2 down terraced back to back houses with no bathroom and an outside toilet. My parents (father) fought his way out of there and progressed to provide his children with a comfortable life, a university education and prosperous future. I use the word squalid to describe the living conditions of my grandparents because, to me, looking back it was squalid. Many of the Muslim enclaves of Leicester and Bradford appear, to me, very similar if not identical to that occupied by my grandparents. It’s not a very scientific measurement but that’s it. If I lived in that Leicester ghetto, whether I was Muslim or not, I would be striving to get out and provide a more comfort and greater opportunities for my children to attain a more comfortable and more prosperous future for their children. I would be trying to shed the shackles of a culture that provided nothing but poverty and pain not trying to replicate it.

Nice sob story but EVERY IMMIGRANT story is similar or far worse many peoples great grandparents were in a similar sitiution and now lets just say They are doing better then before.

secodanly Immigrants were needed in the UK due to the low work force in the 50s/60s - it was a two way thing not a one way thing. The UK needs immigrants to do the crap jobs as most people dont want to do them - the immgrants get down and do the jobs unlike the non immgrant population. The UK doesnt only need docs and lawyers.

If you want to know low white working class places there are many ex miner towns with council estates where you can see most of the non immigrants not getting themselves out of poverty but enjoying the free ride. Why dont you rant about them??

so dont give this racist one way story look at the ex miners towns too. You have the same problem there which is bigger too.

edit - and the immigrants that came yesterday - God knows how long it will take them to climb up the social class ladder - it took many years for the 50s/60s immigrants

[جوري]

I would like to know what percentage of Muslim professionals (doctors, lawyers etc.,) in the UK sported the regulation fist long beard or wore the burka. With no evidence other than my own eyes I would suggest that it is minute. Why is that?

Holders of PhD's make up only 1% of the population, Medical professionals even less so. Not everyone is in pursuit of the highest education there is, I dare even say your very privileged citizens .. looking at your 'royal' family and the money they have amassed, I am wondering why they waste their time in pursuit of art history, when they can practically have a research lab for every day of the week (not to say that I don't like art history) in fact I had enough courses in the 'humanities' personally to have had it as a third major. Now, a 'Burka' is truly a personal choice. Is every nun or every Jewess in top to bottom cover in pursuit of a very professional education?

People who choose a burka have chosen to dedicate their life entirely to God, and still I have known many sisters in burkas who work as teachers and tutors and have home businesses. still with all the above in England and the unflattering style in which it was written, I see that Muslim women fare better as per the study I have quoted. Better than christians and those who believe in nothing. So perhaps the problem isn't in the clothes (but something else?) I'd examine deeper, what is being offered as opportunities in your country.. I believe England especially has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in all of Europe.. If you have a child at 13, I imagine becoming a professional wouldn't be high on your list!

In the U.S, we have many a bearded (not just Muslims) but just fully clad in their gear, strings hanging from the pants, funny hatted Jews, we also have sikhs with their turbans.. I guess the country here looks more at what you have to offer professionaly than what you are sporting on your head or your chin!

I believe the difference between UK and US Muslims is their country of origin and standard of education and level of prosperity before they emigrated,

France was too cold and Cyprus offers tax incentives for people like me to live here.

Perhaps so? My uncle is a physicist and was invited here, worked at NASA for 5 years and still they didn't offer him citizenship, now he is a professor of physics at a major canadian university. So, I really don't know what criteria goes into the selection.


(thanks for the honesty) about a tax incentive, it was quite forth coming.. I suppose that is why people seek to better their lives elsewhere?..
I know you don't want to hear it but seek the starting point of your choosing, perhaps it is best to have a better microscopic view of your region and that of places where immigration is said to be influxed from. Perhaps therein lies your answer!


all the best

[aadil77]

If I lived in that Leicester ghetto, whether I was Muslim or not, I would be striving to get out and provide a more comfort and greater opportunities for my children to attain a more comfortable and more prosperous future for their children. I would be trying to shed the shackles of a culture that provided nothing but poverty and pain not trying to replicate it.

lol 'Leicester ghetto' if you drive for 10 mins you'll be out that 'ghetto' and into areas with houses costing close to a million and more, with muslims living there

you know even in the 'ghettos' you get well off muslims even millionaires living there purely to be closer to the many mosques

the point is people actually want to live there, they'll move from fancy areas to be in that muslim community

[Zafran]

salaam

Yeah thats another reason why people live in Ghettos

1 - near mosques
2 - safety like most ethnic minorities.

[Thinker]

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Your grandparents and parents, while undoubtedly hard-working and loving people, were not immigrants. If you're an immigrant looking for a better life in a different country, chances are you don't have much going for you in your native country - so when you emigrate, there's that much more to build when you arrive. Climbing the socio-economic ladder is usually the result of the combined work of multiple generations.

The (immigrant) parents or grandparents are trying their best. Some of them may well be qualified up the yazoo in their native countries, but once they come to the UK, they have to (and do) sit further examinations to convert their qualifications into ones accepted in Europe. Many immigrants started businesses here.

It's certain members of my generation who are the problem. Me? I'm educated and qualified. My parents supported and pushed me. The parents of my peers did the same. However, the 'ghetto dwellers' (that is, people who choose to dwell in ghettos because they choose not to educate themselves, choose not to gain any qualifications or meaningful employment or enterprise - not just people who happen to live in a place someone perceives as a ghetto) you seem to be referring to decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want to take that step.

Indeed - but the direction of these posts started when a member here posted the below message . . . . .

the imam at our mosque has encouraged families to have as many children as possible to spread islam and strengthen the ummah. If every family has it arab style 10, 20 children then who knows how fast islam will spread.

I suggest that (immigrant or not) parents would be more likely to provide greater support and put in greater resources to a smaller family rather than a large family and that if muslims concentrated their efforts on baby production rather than accruing prosperity, they may be lots of them but they are going to remain poor, uneducated, unemployed and angry.

[Thinker]

Nice sob story but EVERY IMMIGRANT story is similar or far worse many peoples great grandparents were in a similar sitiution and now lets just say They are doing better then before.

See my posts above.

I used the story to make a point not to gain sympathy for my long dead grandparents. The point was about being responsible parents and citizens and restricting yourself to the number of children that you can provide for. It is a fact that better educated more affluent parents have less children that uneducated poor people - why is that?

[Zafran]

I suggest that (immigrant or not) parents would be more likely to provide greater support and put in greater resources to a smaller family rather than a large family and that if muslims concentrated their efforts on baby production rather than accruing prosperity, they may be lots of them but they are going to remain poor, uneducated, unemployed and angry.

a bit like the people who have small families or even better no children so they can live in there hednostic lifestyle of pre martial sex and drinking heavily on a saturday night and teenage pregancies - lets not forget about children who dont even know who there fathers are - then they complian that the immigrants are taking over!! grow up!

[Zafran]

See my posts above.

I used the story to make a point not to gain sympathy for my long dead grandparents. The point was about being responsible parents and citizens and restricting yourself to the number of children that you can provide for. It is a fact that better educated more affluent parents have less children that uneducated poor people - why is that?

not true at all - I know many families who have large families and far better off then small families as the big families actually help each other out and have a stronger bound - they even have more man power making them more richer especaiily if its a family business which is what most immigrants do later on - not the case with small ones - soon as the kids grow they leave and dump there parents in an old peoples home and never bother to visit them - they dont want the burden want to stay "free" with there hednositc lifestyle.

[Thinker]

lol 'Leicester ghetto' if you drive for 10 mins you'll be out that 'ghetto' and into areas with houses costing close to a million and more, with muslims living there

you know even in the 'ghettos' you get well off muslims even millionaires living there purely to be closer to the many mosques

the point is people actually want to live there, they'll move from fancy areas to be in that muslim community

Entirely so and your post goes some way to confirm the fears expressed by that author of the article in the Telegraph – a Demographic Time Bomb. You confirm that some Muslims don’t want to integrate, they want to live amongst those of the same culture (and I suspect same ethnic origin) and they want to preserve and reinforce the cultural values they or their parents brought with them. So what, you might ask? Because they came from a country that failed and on the presumption that the people themselves are as bright and industrious as anybody else, it was probably those cultural values that caused the failure and they want to import them into my country – that’s the ‘time bomb.’

[Zafran]

Entirely so and your post goes some way to confirm the fears expressed by that author of the article in the Telegraph – a Demographic Time Bomb. You confirm that some Muslims don’t want to integrate, they want to live amongst those of the same culture (and I suspect same ethnic origin) and they want to preserve and reinforce the cultural values they or their parents brought with them. So what, you might ask? – that’s the ‘time bomb.’

A bit like British cultural values that are trying export there hedonism of of binge driniking, mini skirts and greedy people - maybe its the culture and its greedy and hoarding nature. - Two can play at that game - your remarke is incredibly offences and racist - specifically this part

Because they came from a country that failed and on the presumption that the people themselves are as bright and industrious as anybody else, it was probably those cultural values that caused the failure and they want to import them into my country

You ran away from your country for greed - you wanted a tax benefit - you ran away anyway.

Th reasons why Mulsims stay in specfically area has been sated before here

Yeah thats another reason why people live in Ghettos

1 - near mosques
2 - safety like most ethnic minorities.

But ofcourse blame the immigrants even though you ran away from the UK!

[Thinker]

your remark is incredibly offences and racist - specifically this part

Hmmm – if identifying a failed country as a failure and saying that it is the citizens of that country that caused the failure is racist then I hold my hands up – it’s still true though.

A bit like British cultural values that are trying export there hedonism of binge drinking mini skirts and greedy people - maybe it’s the culture and its greedy and hoarding nature.

I’m not so sure that these feature of the cultural character of the Brits is all bad. They were the same people, few in number, that won an empire; that beat the Germans in Normandy, the French at Waterloo, the Spanish Armada, the Boers in SA and numerous others and who, even in defeat find glory in charging the Russian cannons at Balaclava; those binge drinking thugs are the same men that when told to charge those guns said, “ours not to reason why, ours not to make reply, ours just to do and die.” Yes they are mindless drunken thugs and I wouldn’t p*** on them if they were on fire but I also would want to be on the opposing side if they were called up and formed into an army.

You ran away from your country for greed - you wanted a tax benefit - you ran away anyway.

You do yourself a disservice - please try and stick to rational debate.

[Zafran]

Hmmm – if identifying a failed country as a failure and saying that it is the citizens of that country that caused the failure is racist then I hold my hands up – it’s still true though.



I’m not so sure that these feature of the cultural character of the Brits is all bad. They were the same people, few in number, that won an empire; that beat the Germans in Normandy, the French at Waterloo, the Spanish Armada, the Boers in SA and numerous others and who, even in defeat find glory in charging the Russian cannons at Balaclava; those binge drinking thugs are the same men that when told to charge those guns said, “ours not to reason why, ours not to make reply, ours just to do and die.” Yes they are mindless drunken thugs and I wouldn’t p*** on them if they were on fire but I also would want to be on the opposing side if they were called up and formed into an army.



You do yourself a disservice - please try and stick to rational debate.

Hmmm – if identifying a failed country as a failure and saying that it is the citizens of that country that caused the failure is racist then I hold my hands up – it’s still true though.

How is that true at all and thats not how you put it - you blamed the culture and left out political, colonalists (lets not forget about that you are a Brit!) economic etc etc - your blaming the people living in the UK for the failure of the other country??? which is very racist/imperilaistic and preety much stupid -

Its a bit like me blaming you for the UKs problem because you ran away from the UK. Immigrants!

I’m not so sure that these feature of the cultural character of the Brits is all bad. They were the same people, few in number, that won an empire; that beat the Germans in Normandy, the French at Waterloo, the Spanish Armada, the Boers in SA and numerous others and who, even in defeat find glory in charging the Russian cannons at Balaclava; those binge drinking thugs are the same men that when told to charge those guns said, “ours not to reason why, ours not to make reply, ours just to do and die.” Yes they are mindless drunken thugs and I wouldn’t p*** on them if they were on fire but I also would want to be on the opposing side if they were called up and formed into an army.

This is nonsesne anyway - the people of the past would be shocked at the people of today in any country. How do you know they were the same people have met the people in SA - you know the aprthied or the conquest of India or dumping the convicts in australia, racism to the africans and bombimg civilains in dresden - millions of good memories - there are also the shocking once that we forget about. :)

[Thinker]

A bit like British cultural values that are trying export there hedonism of of binge driniking, mini skirts and greedy people - maybe its the culture and its greedy and hoarding nature. - Two can play at that game - your remarke is incredibly offences and racist - specifically this part

Read this . . http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...-proposal.html

This is an example of some of the cultural values some strive to retain and you are calling me racist!! This girls parents are hypocrites and racists and I am sure their views are mirrored amongst many in the UK.

[Zafran]

Read this . . http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...-proposal.html

This is an example of some of the cultural values some strive to retain and you are calling me racist!! This girls parents are hypocrites and racists and I am sure their views are mirrored amongst many in the UK.

Yes......You are - You ran away to cyprus and now are talking about British culture - Hypocricy there - you should look at yourself before talking about the other people.

your views are probably mirrored by the people that love the BNP.

what are your cultural values that You want to retain??? white Britain while you live in cyprus??? Bing drinking while you gte the tax benefits? seems like hypocricy.

[Muezzin]

Indeed - but the direction of these posts started when a member here posted the below message . . . . .

the imam at our mosque has encouraged families to have as many children as possible to spread islam and strengthen the ummah. If every family has it arab style 10, 20 children then who knows how fast islam will spread.

That's a bit of a non-sequitur given that the post of yours I was replying to was a different subject, but whatever.

I suggest that (immigrant or not) parents would be more likely to provide greater support and put in greater resources to a smaller family rather than a large family and that if muslims concentrated their efforts on baby production rather than accruing prosperity, they may be lots of them but they are going to remain poor, uneducated, unemployed and angry.

I don't really agree with people who say 'Have a loads of babies to increase the population of X Community! It doesn't matter what else you do so long as you breed like mad!' It sends the wrong message on many levels.

I don't see what this has to do with immigrant/immigration/ghetto bashing as outlined in the post of yours to which I replied.

[aamirsaab]

Some of you don’t want to integrate, you want to change the British culture to something similar to what you or your parents had in Pakistan.

Noone wants to change british culture. Quit with your xenophobia, it's embarrasing. Plus, don't you live in Cyprus?!

..in short they come for better access to worldly benefits.

Indeed, like ALL imigrants!

What I struggle to understand is the Muslims that want to change the country into the same thing that they left – what happens then do you move on to the next country and ruin that one?

Again, more xenophobia. This isn't Independance Day - we are not aliens from space!

Look around you, most of you are living in squalid ghettos, yes it’s better than what you had in Pakistan but surely you left there for something better. I am starting to wonder if you know what you want.

I live in no ghetto, thank you very much for generalising. And I do happen to know what I want: money and lots of it. Like you. And everyone else.

Is there is any aspect of the quality of life you enjoy in the UK that would be improved by changing the culture to that of your forebears?

No gambling, no drinking and no adultery. But hey, if you want to frollick in those areas, by all means do - I don't actually care. Go waste your money (but remember to gambleaware.com!), go drink until you vomit out your guts (booze is cheaper than water at tescos!), go screw everything that breathes (incest, beastiality, whatever you fancy!).

Just don't be suprised when muslims express their disgust at those things.

[Muezzin]

Hmmm – if identifying a failed country as a failure and saying that it is the citizens of that country that caused the failure is racist then I hold my hands up – it’s still true though.

The way you're using it renders it simply illogical and circular reasoning. You're saying 'All immigrants only emigrate because the country they're leaving has failed' (which is demonstratably false, or at the very least a matter of interpretation rather than an empirical fact).

Following this line of reasoning, you yourself, living in a country that is not Britain, have rendered Britain a failure. Otherwise, why would you have moved?

Which is all a roundabout way of saying - instead of assuming other people's motives, shall we actually, genuinely, ask them?

[Thinker]

The way you're using it renders it simply illogical and circular reasoning. You're saying 'All immigrants only emigrate because the country they're leaving has failed' (which is demonstrably false, or at the very least a matter of interpretation rather than an empirical fact).

Following this line of reasoning, you yourself, living in a country that is not Britain, have rendered Britain a failure. Otherwise, why would you have moved?

Which is all a roundabout way of saying - instead of assuming other people's motives, shall we actually, genuinely, ask them?

First let me answer the easy bit – I haven’t emigrated from the UK, I still hold a British passport, I still have property and other assets in the UK, I still pay taxes there and spend several months of the year there; I am, for all intent and purpose on a long holiday in Cyprus at the invitation of the Cypriot government who want people like me (my money) here and offer us incentives to be here.

Now let me turn to your allegation that I am xenophobic (a Greek word meaning fear of foreigners). Without getting into semantics I’ll presume you meant racist. That’s a word which is too easily thrown around and which comes loaded with massive negative connotations. In simple terms a racists believes that some races are superior to another. I have suggested that one culture is better than another, not race. I have mentioned Pakistan because, using the universal measure of success, Pakistan as a country is a (relative) failure. There are other countries which are bigger failures but as Pakistanis are the predominant group amongst the Muslim population of the UK and as this is a Muslim forum it seemed appropriate to mention that country. The question that follows is – why is Pakistan a failure? Of course it is natural to try and blame someone else and blaming colonialism is always a popular choice. Britain was colonised by the Romans, we didn’t blame the Romans for any failings we had as a nation, in fact, I believe it to be the case that Britons believe we benefited from being colonised and influenced by a superior culture. With regards to that excuse and Pakistan the problem is that India was a part of the same colony and compared to Pakistan, they seem to be progressing and prospering. Clearly the Indians and the Pakistani’s are part of the same race so why is that? I believe the reason why Pakistan is less prosperous than India is cultural and I believe the reason why India is less prosperous than the UK is cultural. Does that make me racist – I suggest not, I am not racists and I am certainly not xenophobic, I am however worried, even fearful of the importation of a culture which has produced failure.

The author of the article was suggesting the Islam/Muslims are a demographic time bomb, I suggested that the importation of a failed culture and refusal to integrate was the demographic time bomb.

[GuestFellow]

^ I do not think culture is the main reason why a country is less weathly or less properouss than other countries. Mainly it is to do with the enconomy, how the government is structured and how efficient they are. There is too much corruption that needs to be dealth within Pakistan. If a country is filled with corrupt officials then foreign influence and interference will have a greater impact upon the whole population. If law enforcement is deteriorating then so will the nation.

If you look at America they were quite financially successful. However over the years they have gotten into debt. It hasn't got much to do with culture but strategic decisions they made.

[Zafran]

The example of the romans and the British is a terrible one because there was no such thing as "Britian" until well later in the 17th century. Lets not forget The UK has not been invaded for a long time. 1066 is the last invasion I believe.

Back to Pakistans failure - thats easy - economy, unstable politcally, no unity due to different ethnic groups - social reasons, no serious system of governanace - thats why you get militery take overs like latin america and recently outside intervention eg the US and its war has destablized the country even more - giving more blame to the outsiders. You have refugees and more hatred of the US developing there - thanks to the drone bombings

so as you can see the reasons are hugely broad and to say the UK is better beacsue of its culture - is bogus - UK has a strong financial power - nothing to do with culture - Good social system - again nothing to do with the culture - very little or no outside intervention (it does the interventions) - on and on.

what do you mean UK culture is "better"??? it couldnt even walk on its own if it didnt have serious people making serious decisions about economy, politics etc - just like any other culture on earth.

why is India so prosperous - it isnt - it has a growing middle class but most of india is still heavily poor.

furthermore coloanialism leaves the slave mentality behind. Its also very very recent.

Edit - I can even take it so far and say what is British culture anyway - the welsh, the Irish, the English and ofcourse the scotts - democracy?tolerance?,liberal? - thats not cultural thats based on indoctrination or education and choices the people make - If they want they can just kick out all the people who dont fit there "Bristish culture" or even worse repeat history.

[Muezzin]

First let me answer the easy bit – I haven’t emigrated from the UK, I still hold a British passport, I still have property and other assets in the UK, I still pay taxes there and spend several months of the year there; I am, for all intent and purpose on a long holiday in Cyprus at the invitation of the Cypriot government who want people like me (my money) here and offer us incentives to be here.

Your immigration argument, as I understand it, is still flawed. You still seem to be saying 'People only emigrate because their original countries have failed'. This would mean, as a result of every British person who has ever emigrated to another country, that Britain itself is a failure.

Now let me turn to your allegation that I am xenophobic (a Greek word meaning fear of foreigners).

I know what it means. That's why I did not make any such allegation.

Without getting into semantics I’ll presume you meant racist.

Since I did not make such allegations, I'll presume you're replying to someone else.

That’s a word which is too easily thrown around and which comes loaded with massive negative connotations. In simple terms a racists believes that some races are superior to another. I have suggested that one culture is better than another, not race. I have mentioned Pakistan because, using the universal measure of success, Pakistan as a country is a (relative) failure.

This begs the question - what is the universal measure of a culture's success?

There are other countries which are bigger failures but as Pakistanis are the predominant group amongst the Muslim population of the UK and as this is a Muslim forum it seemed appropriate to mention that country. The question that follows is – why is Pakistan a failure?

Assuming it is a 'failure' according to some mystical universal measure, the main reason is that its government is full of corrupt beuraucrats, which in turn weakens the economy. Most politically aware Pakistanis will tell you this. What this has to do with Pakistani culture I don't know.

Of course it is natural to try and blame someone else and blaming colonialism is always a popular choice. Britain was colonised by the Romans, we didn’t blame the Romans for any failings we had as a nation, in fact, I believe it to be the case that Britons believe we benefited from being colonised and influenced by a superior culture.

Don't be absurd. It's been a matter of centuries since the Roman colonisation of Britain. It's been a matter of decades since the British colonisation of Asia. Some countries take longer to adjust than others. To say the relative slowness of certain countries to adjust than others is due solely to those certain countries' 'inferior' cultures is inaccurate to say the least.

With regards to that excuse and Pakistan the problem is that India was a part of the same colony and compared to Pakistan, they seem to be progressing and prospering. Clearly the Indians and the Pakistani’s are part of the same race so why is that? I believe the reason why Pakistan is less prosperous than India is cultural and I believe the reason why India is less prosperous than the UK is cultural.

I believe you're ignoring the elephant in the room that is the corrupt Pakistani government, as opposed to the 'inferior' Pakistani culture.

Does that make me racist – I suggest not, I am not racists and I am certainly not xenophobic, I am however worried, even fearful of the importation of a culture which has produced failure.

Name me a culture that has never produced any failure of any kind.

Anyway, were a culture you deem to be a 'failure' imported into the UK, how precisely does this lead the entire country to ruin? You know, in practice. Are you downplaying the role of government? Are you saying that products of a 'failed culture' should not be allowed to hold governmental positions?