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Uthman
08-12-2009, 05:04 PM
French officials have banned a Muslim woman from swimming in a public pool while wearing a swimsuit that covers her entire body.

The woman had swum in July in the pool in Emerainville, east of Paris, in the "burkini" - a loose-fitting garment resembling a wetsuit with a hood.

But staff stopped her from swimming in August, citing hygiene concerns.

It comes as the government examines ways to limit burka use after the president said they reduced dignity.

France is home to Western Europe's largest population of Muslims, with about 5 million living there.

That type of suit does not exist in the Koran
Mayor Alain Kelyor

At the pool, staff "reminded [the woman] of the rules that apply in all (public) swimming pools which forbid swimming while clothed," pool management official Daniel Guillaume was quoted by AFP as saying.

The woman was a French convert to Islam, and had bought the swimsuit in Dubai so that she would not have to uncover herself to go swimming.

"Quite simply, this is segregation," she said, according to Le Parisien newspaper, which identified her only as Carole.

"I will fight to try to change things. And if I see that the battle is lost, I cannot rule out leaving France."

Emerainville Mayor Alain Kelyor said "all this has nothing to do with Islam", adding that the swimsuit was "not an Islamic swimsuit" and that "that type of suit does not exist in the Koran".

'Prisoners behind netting'


In June the French National Assembly appointed 32 MPs to a six-month fact-finding mission to look at ways of restricting burka use.

In a major policy speech that month, President Nicolas Sarkozy said the burka - a garment covering women from head to toe - reduced them to servitude and undermined their dignity.

"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," Mr Sarkozy told a special session of parliament in Versailles.

In 2004, France banned the Islamic headscarves in its state schools.

Source
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UmmSqueakster
08-12-2009, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān

Emerainville Mayor Alain Kelyor said "all this has nothing to do with Islam", adding that the swimsuit was "not an Islamic swimsuit" and that "that type of suit does not exist in the Koran".
Ha, I just can't imagine anyone saying something so stupid.

Also, if one is not suppose to swim clothed, does that mean it's a nude swimming pool? Because the burkini et al aren't street clothes, they're just swimsuits with lots more fabric.
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Ar-RaYYan
08-12-2009, 05:46 PM
Subhannallah their policies are getting more ridicolous! Dont the French govt have more important things to solve than discusss women's wardrobe!
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GuestFellow
08-12-2009, 06:12 PM
I wonder what is going happen next. I suppose the French government need to find something more productive to do rather than telling people how to dress.

But staff stopped her from swimming in August, citing hygiene concerns.
Yeah like what?

That type of suit does not exist in the Koran
Mayor Alain Kelyor
Hahahaha...
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aadil77
08-12-2009, 06:22 PM
I dont get the point of this suit, it looks stupid, the women will still be seein other women and mens awrahs. So theres no point to it at all
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جوري
08-12-2009, 06:24 PM
what unusual bull is this.. what about people who are prune to skin cancer and have to wear suits such as this

to protect their bodies from the harmful rays.. are they also prisoners? or just limited to those oppressed women? so oppressed indeed, for even when they speak of their choice, they shut em and tell em, that they are oppressed whether they agree or not..

sob7an Allah..

:w:
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czgibson
08-12-2009, 06:25 PM
Greetings,

That is ridiculous. Look at what professional swimmers wear - is there that much difference?

She should definitely be allowed to use her 'burkini'.

Peace
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A-Believer-25
08-12-2009, 06:37 PM
:sl:

That is not fair!
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Suomipoika
08-12-2009, 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

That is ridiculous. Look at what professional swimmers wear - is there that much difference?

She should definitely be allowed to use her 'burkini'.

Peace
I don't know, pools in here certainly setup all kind of rules, which seem to vary from place to place, banning all kinds of stuff from jewelry to sport shorts.
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Muezzin
08-12-2009, 06:48 PM
If the pool is a business, it's allowed to refuse custom, based on, amongst other things, health and safety concerns.

Not that I agree with the refusal of custom in this case.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-12-2009, 06:57 PM
Hmm I guess we should ban scuba divers from swimming underwater with their full water suits due to safety concerns...:p Lol what a bunch of nutties.

What safety concern is there with wearing a full swim suit. loool..wow.
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GreyKode
08-12-2009, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
I dont get the point of this suit, it looks stupid, the women will still be seein other women and mens awrahs. So theres no point to it at all
I was thinking exactly the same thing. It just makes no sense.
Unless it was in a private all burkini pool.
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The_Prince
08-12-2009, 10:35 PM
we shud start banning french women from wearing western clothes in muslim countries, and force them to wear hijab, we should also make it obligatory for their women to shave their arm pits before they visit a Muslim country.
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Zafran
08-13-2009, 12:57 AM
That type of suit does not exist in the Koran
Mayor Alain Kelyor
salaam

what a stupid thing to say lol -

anyway as usual this is going against what France stands for.

peace
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north_malaysian
08-13-2009, 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Hmm I guess we should ban scuba divers from swimming underwater with their full water suits due to safety concerns...:p Lol what a bunch of nutties.

What safety concern is there with wearing a full swim suit. loool..wow.
i think that they watched too many porns and want everyone to be a nudist..
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-13-2009, 01:08 PM
^^Most likely! That's the impression I got.

"I'm sorry but you can't be modest, only nude!"
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- IqRa -
08-13-2009, 01:09 PM
That type of suit does not exist in the Koran
Grow up.
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crayon
08-13-2009, 01:37 PM
This is flat out discrimination, no matter how you choose to spin it.
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KAding
08-13-2009, 02:55 PM
The real question is, does the swimming pool also ban swimming shorts for men, I mean those longer loose ones you almost always see on the beach?

In my neighborhood several swimming pools have banned those as well, also citing hygiene reasons. So you are actually forced to wear one of those tight swimming 'trunks'.

I might be somewhat more sympathetic to this swimming pool if they had a ban on all loose clothing.
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Muezzin
08-13-2009, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Hmm I guess we should ban scuba divers from swimming underwater with their full water suits due to safety concerns...:p Lol what a bunch of nutties.

What safety concern is there with wearing a full swim suit. loool..wow.
Don't get me wrong, this decision is silly for many reasons, morally and commercially.

Commercially it's stupid to potentially alienate a segment of your customer base (i.e. Muslims) in this way. Though to be fair, it's the mayor causing potential alienation with his interpretations of Islamic requirements rather than the pool staff, who are emphasising that a Rule's a Rule, and it's Nothing Personal etc.

As for health and safety - it can be a pretty crazy part of law.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-13-2009, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Don't get me wrong, this decision is silly for many reasons, morally and commercially.

Commercially it's stupid to potentially alienate a segment of your customer base (i.e. Muslims) in this way. Though to be fair, it's the mayor causing potential alienation with his interpretations of Islamic requirements rather than the pool staff, who are emphasising that a Rule's a Rule, and it's Nothing Personal etc.

As for health and safety - it can be a pretty crazy part of law.
They are just as much responsible. Just cause he's mayor doesn't mean he's right. The fact that he's got all it wrong Islamically and no one else cares to actually educate themself on the issue. It's just like being spoon fed...he says it, therefore it cannot be questioned :hmm: Nonsense in my opinion..

Honestly, I dont see these people making a big deal out of smoking/drugs, pre marital sex and alcohol due to health and safety...? Why? It's obvious they're singling out Muslims.
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aadil77
08-13-2009, 06:29 PM
theres no point trying to defend this 'burkini' thing. They only way it will be modest is if she is in a pool full of other burkini wearing muslim women. Or if they invent some burkini goggles to go with it, which block out uncovered flesh
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Muezzin
08-13-2009, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
They are just as much responsible.
I'm inclined to believe the pool staff have simply written themselves into a legal corner. It happens. Litigation will resolve this.

Just cause he's mayor doesn't mean he's right.
I agree. The mayor is the one stirring the pot here.

The fact that he's got all it wrong Islamically and no one else cares to actually educate themself on the issue. It's just like being spoon fed...he says it, therefore it cannot be questioned :hmm: Nonsense in my opinion..
Agreed.

Honestly, I dont see these people making a big deal out of smoking,
Don't know about France, but most public places in the UK don't allow smoking.

pre marital sex
Public places in all countries tend not to allow that sort of behaviour in a public place.

Unless I've misunderstood your point, which is entirely possible.

and alcohol
I don't think public pools would allow alcohol on the premises either, but I could be wrong.

due to health and safety concerns...? Why? It's obvious they're singling out Muslims.
Again, I think what is actually the case in this particular situation is that it is simply the outcome of a badly drafted rule. The mayor's ill-advised have-a-go fatwa muddies the waters and worsens the situation.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-13-2009, 06:37 PM
^^Nah i don't mean at the pool area or anything like that nor do I mean what places ban it or disallow it. What I mean is, if they are really concerned about health and safety, why not such a big deal over things like drugs and such instead of over clothing. You get me? So that's why I concluded that it's a total bias. It's more like a rhetorical question.


theres no point trying to defend this 'burkini' thing. They only way it will be modest is if she is in a pool full of other burkini wearing muslim women. Or if they invent some burkini goggles to go with it, which block out uncovered flesh
I'm not defending that at all. I personally would never wear it and even if I was wearing an air bag and u couldnt tell my head from my foot...i wouldnt swim in public :p
I'm talking about the sort of mentality these people use...or at least what is left of it.
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Muezzin
08-13-2009, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Nah i don't mean at the pool area or anything like that nor do I mean what places ban it or disallow it. What I mean is, if they are really concerned about health and safety, why not such a big deal over these things but over clothing. You get me?
I get you. Like I said, health and safety law can be a very crazy place.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-13-2009, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I get you. Like I said, health and safety law can be a very crazy place.
Indeed it can be. Crazy world :skeleton:
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Foxhole
08-13-2009, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
The real question is, does the swimming pool also ban swimming shorts for men, I mean those longer loose ones you almost always see on the beach?

In my neighborhood several swimming pools have banned those as well, also citing hygiene reasons. So you are actually forced to wear one of those tight swimming 'trunks'.

I might be somewhat more sympathetic to this swimming pool if they had a ban on all loose clothing.
They ban all loose clothing. Men and women must wear tight suits, wear hair caps, and shower before entering the pool. Essentially, they want to make sure that nobody is wearing clothing that can also be worn on the "street". The rationale is that these clothes will carry chemicals, bacteria and viruses into the water.

I don't know how much evidence there is for this belief. But it appears that the rule is being applied evenly. There is a legal concept known as "reasonable accomodation". I guess the courts will weigh in as to if and how this applies here. Certainly nobody will argue that only Muslim women should be allowed to wear loose, all-covering clothes, so you will basically have to throw the regulation out if such suits are allowed.
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جوري
08-13-2009, 09:32 PM
The only rule from above that I recognize is taking a shower before getting in, other than that, they make no such demands of anyone, also head covering is mandatory in the pool as are goggles because of the chlorine and other chemicals. There is no scientific evidence to support that the amount of bacteria is different between loose and tight garments... unless people like to harbor a poop sac in their loose clothing and release it upon diving in just to be vindictive? ...

pools no matter how chlorinated are breeding ground for bacteria most notably Pseudomonas aeruginosa, children and diabetics are most prune..

It is a risk you take when using a public pool, just like the risk you take every time you get into the car!
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Somaiyah
08-13-2009, 10:16 PM
Salam,
I think burkini is a very good invent. It covers you like you should and as long as it's not these skin tight burkinis, but these better ones then it's perfect. And in a material that doesn't harm the pools more than normal bikinis and other bathing clothes. In fact, if children bathe with t-shirt on because they don't want to get burned it should harm the pool more. Forbid that instead of the burkini and I guess all parents will go mad.
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Predator
08-14-2009, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
I dont get the point of this suit, it looks stupid, the women will still be seein other women and mens awrahs. So theres no point to it at all
Fair enough and the same would apply to muslim men as they too would be seeing other women' and men's awrahs in a mixed gender pool and vice versa maybe they can go in for their own verson of swimming trunks like the one below by i an thorpe and that too in a male-only pool

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Faye
08-14-2009, 06:20 PM
Not seeing other people's awrahs is a weird reason for not going to the pool. According to that rule, we shouldn't leave our homes because we're sure to see somebody's awrah if we go outside, what with current fashion trends. If we can lower our gazes outside, we can do it in the pool too.

Though I would never go to a mixed public pool. But that's because my suit, though it covers my awrah, is still tight. And I cover my face. It's impossible to swim with a niqaab.

But I considered buying a burqini so I could swim with my brothers in private areas.
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Faye
08-14-2009, 06:23 PM
Men's awrah to men is only bellybutton to knees. Their suits don't have to be so extreme. Long shorts are fine in a men only pool.
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Somaiyah
08-14-2009, 06:36 PM
Salam,
Isn't the mens' awrah from the elbows to the knees?
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Zafran
08-14-2009, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by J Aaliyah
Salam,
Isn't the mens' awrah from the elbows to the knees?
last time i Checked it was the knees up to the belly button.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-14-2009, 10:53 PM
For men it's navel to the knee...

:sl:
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GuestFellow
08-15-2009, 05:10 PM
Ah I was not sure whether I should create a new topic...so I posted it here.

French minister urges burka ban

A ban on the wearing of the burka in France would help stem the spread of the "cancer" of radical Islam, one of its female Muslim ministers has said.

Urban Regeneration Minister Fadela Amara told the Financial Times that a veil covering everything but the eyes represented "the oppression of women".

Ms Amara said she was "in favour of the burka not existing in my country".

The comments come as French MPs hold hearings on whether to ban the garment, which covers the body from head to toe.

The National Assembly set up the 32-member commission after President Nicolas Sarkozy said the burka was "not welcome" in France, home to Western Europe's largest population of Muslims.
The burka represents not a piece of fabric but the political manipulation of a religion
Fadela Amara, French Minister for Urban Regeneration


Mr Sarkozy said it was unacceptable to have women who were "prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity".

In 2004, France controversially banned Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols in state schools and by public employees.

'Political manipulation'

In an interview with the Financial Times on Saturday, Mr Amara said she was in favour of an outright ban on the burka, even though it might be difficult to apply.

Find out about different styles of Muslim headscarf

In graphics



"The burka represents not a piece of fabric but the political manipulation of a religion that enslaves women and disputes the principal of equality between men and women, one of the founding principles of our republic," she said.

France was a beacon for an enlightened Islam at ease with modernity, so it was necessary to fight the "gangrene, the cancer of radical Islam which completely distorts the message of Islam", she said.

Ms Amara, who is of Algerian descent, argued that banning the burka would help women to stand up to the extremists in their communities.

"The vast majority of Muslims are against the burka. It is obvious why," she said.

"Those who have struggled for women's rights back home in their own countries - I'm thinking particularly of Algeria - we know what it represents and what the obscurantist political project is that lies behind it, to confiscate the most fundamental liberties."

She added that the 2004 ban on headscarves in schools had helped Muslim women face up to male chauvinism in their communities.
Source

These French ministers are idiots. . There is no correlation between the Burka and radicalism.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-15-2009, 05:13 PM
*Yawn* Don't these people get tired?

Fix yourselves instead of harassing people who are no harm to your life...gee wiz!
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Caller الداعي
08-15-2009, 05:25 PM
salam! Wel guys again ur expectng somethng frm a country like dat! Rembr qyama is near and the world isnt gna get beter so dnt b suprizd if da situatn getz worse
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Predator
08-15-2009, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Faye

But I considered buying a burqini so I could swim with my brothers in private areas.
Why are you so keen on swimming on with brothers and commit a Haram activity ? . You should only go a women-only pool .

Islam does not allow men and women swimming together.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545706
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Uthman
08-15-2009, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Airforce
Why are you so keen on swimming on with brothers and commit a Haram activity ? . You should only go a women-only pool .

Islam does not allow men and women swimming together.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545706
I think she meant with her brothers who she is actually related to.
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Uthman
08-15-2009, 08:42 PM
It looks like the opposite is happening in the UK:

Swimmers are told to wear burkinis
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GuestFellow
08-15-2009, 08:56 PM
^ How strange...I thought the UK would be copying France. o_o
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-15-2009, 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Airforce
Why are you so keen on swimming on with brothers and commit a Haram activity ? . You should only go a women-only pool .

Islam does not allow men and women swimming together.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545706
She was talking about her blood brothers I believe, bro.
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thetruth2009
08-15-2009, 09:40 PM
Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers,


You have not to compare UK to France.

France is very differente, for a simple reason they Hate muslims and Islams.

They will not tell it directly but they are voting law against our sisters and brothers.

An the woman which was banned, was a French woman convert to Islam.

And that woman called Carole 35 years old said, she is going to court and if she will not win, she wants to leave France and live in another country which respect Islams and Muslims.

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.


I ask Allah SWT to forgive us and to guide us, Ameen.
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Muezzin
08-15-2009, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
It looks like the opposite is happening in the UK:

Swimmers are told to wear burkinis
Originally Posted by The article
Douglas Murray, director of the Centre for Social Cohesion, last night condemned the practice. He said: "This kind of thing is extremely divisive.

"Non-Muslims see these extremist demands as an example of Muslims wanting things to fit into their lifestyle, when there aren't similar things organised for Hindus, Buddhists or Jews.
Heh. This kind of reasoning is so fallacious. It's saying 'Oh, group x shouldn't ask for this, because groups y and z don't!' Well, I got news: Nobody is stopping groups y and z getting their way. They need only ask.

He likes stirring the pot, this director of the Centre for Social Cohesion.

There's also the deliberate vagueness in the article - when are these sessions held? How often? What is their duration? Conveniently the article is phrased such that the reader can project whatever frequency and duration satisfies the reader's own prejudice - a bigot might read it and think 'Hmm, this means that MOST OF THE TIME, EVERY DAY, you have to meet a Muslim dress code or you get kicked out'.
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M..x
08-15-2009, 10:47 PM
ERUGH. This article made me S I C K. Wha tha heck is this?! Even their laws on tha hijaab is pathetic. Hello! Women have tha freedom of choice you know. Freaking nut jobs. They need to get a life & maybe encourage their wives to wear them aswell, see tha respekt they get. Eveh. Time wasters.
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cat eyes
08-15-2009, 10:57 PM
i hate france and always have even before i reverted, iv'e heard many a times people going there on holidays and the look of disgust on there faces when they came back..

they said we were getting ignored there and they were very racist with other tourists hearing one french man saying'' go back to your country where you came from'' they also said taxi drivers robed them.

thats not only one story i heard loads... there goverment is just nasty and thats the cause of it how there people react with others, its clear.. something needs to be done. ive been offered to go but refused as i don't want to waste my money in that country and rather go to spain or somewhere like that this year inshallaah..

how can they have that right to stop a human from wearing a certain clothing. its just gone to far now seriously
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Predator
08-16-2009, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
I think she meant with her brothers who she is actually related to.
The article does not give any exceptions , so men and women cant swim together,its as simple as that
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Amadeus85
08-16-2009, 10:01 AM
I am bit suprised how many of you react on such issues like "Frenchmen ban burkini in swimming pool". From many of your comments there comes up an image of almost totalitarian, neo nazi state, while it cant be even compared with what often happens to religious minorites in Egypt, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan and Bangladesh. How banning "burkinis" or minarets can be even compared to killing people or destroying temples.
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Ummu Sufyaan
08-16-2009, 10:16 AM
^you still havnt answered my question on another thread, or do you deem it irrelevant:
do you hold the same opinion to the Christians who killed the natives of Australia and enforced their laws on them, imposing their oppression, such as stealing children away from their mothers? What about the population of the American indigenous people decreasing after European (Christoper Columbus was a European christian) colonization?

about your question though, were have any of us compared it to killing and destroyed temples?
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Muezzin
08-16-2009, 10:29 AM
Guys, can we please not generalise the whole of France and/or Europe?
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GuestFellow
08-16-2009, 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by Amadeus85
I am bit suprised how many of you react on such issues like "Frenchmen ban burkini in swimming pool". From many of your comments there comes up an image of almost totalitarian, neo nazi state, while it cant be even compared with what often happens to religious minorites in Egypt, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan and Bangladesh. How banning "burkinis" or minarets can be even compared to killing people or destroying temples.
Did we compare it to people being killed or temples being destroyed?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-16-2009, 03:22 PM
^^ Yea seriously. I was just thinking that..
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