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Thinker
08-24-2009, 03:35 PM
The question on which the poll is vases is:

Do you think it is a good thing that anybody, without knowing anything about Islam and the responsibilities and implications of being a Muslim can become a Muslim simply by reciting a verse?

Do you think it is a good thing that anybody, without knowing anything about Islam and the responsibilities and implications of being a Muslim can become a Muslim simply by reciting a verse? I believe that anyone who takes up any religion without fully studying the beliefs and understanding the implications and responsibilities shows, at the least, reckless naivety; should such people not be protected from their own immaturity. Islam, in particular, is a religion which demands strict adherence to doctrine which is life changing. I believe it is the case (I could be wrong) that other religions set a certain standard before they accept converts, should Islam not do the same?
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aamirsaab
08-24-2009, 03:43 PM
:sl:
Well, from what I have read from converts (to Islam) themselves, none of them actually entered blindly. It's only after they studied and gained insight into the religion did they finalise their decision and say the shahadah.

Also, I do think the creater of that poll is being slightly naive themselves if they believe converts join a particular faith in such a whimsical manner. It is not an impulse decision and to think that shows great ignorance.
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Tony
08-24-2009, 04:05 PM
Allah knows best, the intention within is what counts. A person without the ability to speak will still be muslim if the intention is correct. I didnt vote because I do not question the laws of Allah. Peace
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جوري
08-24-2009, 05:46 PM
I am not sure I have encountered anyone who entered into Islam after reciting a verse.. that seems silly (I know you are thinking of Mark) since you kept provoking him for a reply on a thread that he'd created to seek counsel about his marriage..
He actually brushed down your request under 'alot of things' since he wasn't in the mood to get into that conversation on that thread.. I assume based on his one verse reply you formed this thread?

Undoubtedly some folks enter Islams for the wrong reasons (maybe for marriage to a Muslim girl) or whatever.. we really have no way of knowing anyone's intentions..
Islam isn't a religion but an entire system that we all learn and take one day at a time.. each person can learn alot or a little based on their level..
The messenger PBUH told us to be soft in speech, not speak above anyone's head and to be inviting.. when a simply Bedouin came to him to ask him how he can be a good Muslim, he simply told him about the five pillars.. for there is no point of going over intricacies of jurisprudence with a man who has a simple life...

Islam is for everyone whether you are very sharp or very simple.. Allah swt doesn't exclude.. equality in Islam doesn't mean sameness ..and the religion doesn't demand more of its adherents than they can individually bear.. thus I can't personally choose any of your options above, since I don't think they are of relevance!

all the best
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Tony
08-24-2009, 05:56 PM
I agree ^^ I initially came to embrace Islam in order to marry, but even so, I believe this was my intro to Islam and then I went on to make my choice, who can question how Allah decides to bless us with knowledge of Islam and belief in his oneness
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Thinker
08-24-2009, 06:39 PM
Sometimes, there are some things which seem unarguably true. If a child puts his hand towards a naked flame any responsible persons would call on him to stop else he may burn his hand; it is difficult to imagine anyone arguing that the child should not be warned. You might suggest that this is not a good analogy but I am not sure, not least because we are often referred to as God’s children and fire is often referred to as punishment for not keeping God’s commands.

Would anyone here argue against my assertion that taking on any religion is an extremely important decision?
Would anyone here argue against my assertion that becoming a Muslim means accepting adherence to practices which are life changing?
Would anyone here argue against my assertion that Islam ordains dire consequences for those who, haven taken Islam later reject it?

It seem to me that any right minded person would believe it proper that nobody is allowed to take such a serious step before they have studied and fully understand the ramifications. I recall a post on this forum from a man who had converted to shia and later learned that there was sunni and shia and wanted to change his mind, and yes there is the example of the man converting in secret and then learning that he would have to divorce his non-Muslim wife.

If you do not think that candidate converts should be educated to the full obligations, responsibilities and ramifications of conversion before they convert please tell me why. No I am not niaive, I know more about Islam than some of these converts, I posted the question because I am curious to understand how some can reconcile what to me appears unarguably irresponsible.
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جوري
08-24-2009, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Sometimes, there are some things which seem unarguably true. If a child puts his hand towards a naked flame any responsible persons would call on him to stop else he may burn his hand; it is difficult to imagine anyone arguing that the child should not be warned. You might suggest that this is not a good analogy but I am not sure, not least because we are often referred to as God’s children and fire is often referred to as punishment for not keeping God’s commands.
Converts aren't children, and religion isn't a naked flame..There is nothing to warn against.. we are not judge and executioner..thus the analogy fails to be similar. Also we are not God's children, that is a christian concept..


Would anyone here argue against my assertion that taking on any religion is an extremely important decision?
For the individual yes!

Would anyone here argue against my assertion that becoming a Muslim means accepting adherence to practices which are life changing?
They are life changing for the better.. they are not debilitating.. Muslims run the gamut!
Would anyone here argue against my assertion that Islam ordains dire consequences for those who, haven taken Islam later reject it?
I guess you didn't get much out of the reading on apostasy in Islam.. Did you accept Islam to cause mischief and tribulations, or is it honestly just not for you determines the outcome.. No one can know you are an apostate unless you declare it in a rabble-rousing style..

It seem to me that any right minded person would believe it proper that nobody is allowed to take such a serious step before they have studied and fully understand the ramifications. I recall a post on this forum from a man who had converted to shia and later learned that there was sunni and shia and wanted to change his mind, and yes there is the example of the man converting in secret and then learning that he would have to divorce his non-Muslim wife.
you need to clarify on the muslim shia query.. also divorcing your wife isn't necessary.. you can be married to 'people of the book' his problems go deeper than his conversion!

If you do not think that candidate converts should be educated to the full obligations, responsibilities and ramifications of conversion before they convert please tell me why. No I am not niaive, I know more about Islam than some of these converts, I posted the question because I am curious to understand how some can reconcile what to me appears unarguably irresponsible.
Well, you have learned about Islam and decided it wasn't for you.. you made an educated choice.. don't assume that others haven't made a like wise educated choice!

all the best
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Thinker
08-25-2009, 11:23 AM
OK so you don’t want to take part in my poll – that’s OK.

Can someone tell me:

The reason that nobody examines candidates for conversion to Islam to ensure that they know they know what is required of them etc., is that because:

God ordained it to be that way?
It was done that way in the 7C and if it was right then it’s right now?
As there is no single leader of Islam so there is nobody to issue any such decrees?
Some other reason – what?
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aamirsaab
08-25-2009, 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
OK so you don’t want to take part in my poll – that’s OK.

Can someone tell me:

The reason that nobody examines candidates for conversion to Islam to ensure that they know they know what is required of them etc., is that because:

God ordained it to be that way?
It was done that way in the 7C and if it was right then it’s right now?
As there is no single leader of Islam so there is nobody to issue any such decrees?
Some other reason – what?
You obviously didn't read my post. Converting to Islam is the decision of the convert in question, who would have had to do sufficient background reading on the topic in order to convince oneself to join the religion.

So your poll really doesn't apply and neither does your new question: it's not a matter of converts going through some arbitrary test or analysis: they themselves look into the religion BEFORE they join (and say the shahadah). Noone can join whimsically as you are implying because it is such an important matter. e.g: You don't buy a 20 thousand pound/dollar car at the snap of a finger - you do your research on it (check out the milage, value for money etc) and then you make the commitment (to buy or not). That goes for a lot of things including converting to a religion.

I repeat from my first post: it is not an impulse decision as you are making it out to be.
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IAmZamzam
08-25-2009, 01:02 PM
There is no "confirmation" process in Islam like there is in Christianity. The way that you express your conversion/reversion is by reciting the Shahadah in front of at least two Muslims. This doesn't magically transfer you from an unIslamic to an Islamic state. We believe that you are technically a Muslim from the very instant you decide to be one. In fact, it was in (or technically an instant after) that very moment of decision I had my religious experience (one that many other Muslims have, often--as with me--not knowing anyone else has had it). If the Shahadah recitation officializes anything then it just officializes your entrance into the Muslim community. Anyone can say the words of the Shahadah. If an atheist sarcastically yes, "Oh yeah, I definitely bear witness that there's no God but Allah and Muhammad was his final messenger," he does not become a Muslim by doing so. It's not about the words.
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جوري
08-25-2009, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
OK so you don’t want to take part in my poll – that’s OK.

Can someone tell me:

The reason that nobody examines candidates for conversion to Islam to ensure that they know they know what is required of them etc., is that because:

God ordained it to be that way?
It was done that way in the 7C and if it was right then it’s right now?
As there is no single leader of Islam so there is nobody to issue any such decrees?
Some other reason – what?
If someone decides they want to major in the field of mathematics, they were generally good students, and are now applying to college to foster their dream.. Do you sit them down to see if they know what is required of them to know? I think if they knew all there is to know, then there is no point in applying to college all together, am I correct? They'd just be born mathematicians. To enroll is to find a place to nurture and foster your talents and answer your queries and direct you.. but you don't become a mathematician over night, you become one, and the same is true for Islam.. It is an ongoing thing.. You decide after careful reflection that this is for you and then you spend a life time perfecting it!
Some people drop out, sure it is true, it isn't uncommon for every field there is!

all the best
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