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Omar_4
08-26-2009, 04:45 AM
I was wondering if you guys could discuss if it is permitted to have a non-muslim friend who is a girl?
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ژاله
08-26-2009, 11:13 AM
nope, thats haraam...interaction with opposite sex is not allowed.
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Rebel
08-26-2009, 11:37 AM
^ Really? Aren't you interacting with the opposite sex by participating here :X?
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Woodrow
08-26-2009, 11:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_4
I was wondering if you guys could discuss if it is permitted to have a non-muslim friend who is a girl?
Define Friend.


I believe this will all depend upon your concept of what is meant by a friend and what your intentions are regarding this friendship, along with your level of interaction with this person.
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Banu_Hashim
08-26-2009, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaak
nope, thats haraam...interaction with opposite sex is not allowed.
Now hang on a minute. The OP didn't even specify the level of interaction or intention. If you are respectful and on good terms with, lets say a cousin who is a girl and you have no bad intentions, how can that be haraam?
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aadil77
08-26-2009, 12:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
Now hang on a minute. The OP didn't even specify the level of interaction or intention. If you are respectful and on good terms with, lets say a cousin who is a girl and you have no bad intentions, how can that be haraam?
Limits and conditions within which a man may speak to a non-mahram woman

My question is about the adab or the manner between a brother and sister?
I need clarifcation, are we allowed to give salam to sister who is not your muhram or talk to her as you talk to a brother, and how much you allowed to talk?
and what about the non-muhram who are cousine, for example the uncles daughter Am I allowed to give salam and talk to her, and how is her life?please provide for me daleel(proof) and what about marriage?
what allowed talk and salam, ( what is allowed and not) all these things!
because today people mixed between culture and deen, when you tell them about that they say you are bringing new religon!, even alot brothers who relgious don't know this, you may see salafy brother talking weetlgy to sister who were nikab and not his muhram,

Praise be to Allaah.

In brief, what the fuqaha’ have said about women’s voices is that they are not ‘awrah in and of themselves, and there is nothing wrong with listening to them when there is a need to do so, so they do not forbid listening to them, but certain conditions apply, as follows:

The woman should speak without elongating the words, making her voice soft, or raising her voice. It is haraam for a man to listen with enjoyment, for fear of fitnah (temptation).

The decisive factor for knowing what is haraam in the matter of women’s speaking is what is included in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allaah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.” [al-Ahzaab 33:32]

What is forbidden is being too soft in speech. It is obligatory for women to speak in an honourable manner, which means, as the mufassireen explained, that they should not make their voices soft when addressing men. In conclusion, what is required of the Muslim woman when she speaks to a non-mahram man is that she should adhere to what is mentioned in this aayah. She should refrain from what is forbidden and should fulfil her duties. She should speak only when necessary, and only about matters that are permissible and honourable, not evil. Between a woman and a non-mahram man there should be no intonation, gestures, chat, joking, flirting or playful talk, so that there will be no room for provocation of desires and doubts. Women are not prevented from talking to non-mahram men when it is necessary to do so, such as dealing directly with them when buying things or conducting any other financial transaction, because in such cases it is necessary for both parties to speak. A woman may also ask a scholar about some legal Islamic matter, or a man may ask a woman such questions, as is proven in various texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Within the guidelines described above, there is nothing wrong with a woman speaking to a non-mahram man. It is also permissible for men to greet women with salaam and vice versa, according to the most correct opinion, but this greeting must be free of anything that may provoke desire in the person in whose heart is a disease, so as to be safe from fitnah and pay attention to the regulations outlined above.

If there is fear of fitnah being provoked by this greeting, then the woman should refrain from either initiating or returning the greeting, because warding off fitnah by neglecting the greeting is warding off mischief, and warding off mischief takes precedence over doing something useful. (See al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah by ‘Abd al-Kareem Zaydaan, vol 3/276).

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/85512/speaking%20cousin
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Banu_Hashim
08-26-2009, 01:12 PM
^ Well, I always talk to my cousins regardless if they are a boy or a girl. And I don't see anything wrong in that.
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aadil77
08-26-2009, 06:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
^ Well, I always talk to my cousins regardless if they are a boy or a girl. And I don't see anything wrong in that.
No ones stopping you,

it would have been alright when you were small but things change when you get older and its not like talking to your sisters as some people make it out to be
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M..x
08-26-2009, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rebel
^ Really? Aren't you interacting with the opposite sex by participating here :X?
Ouch. I guess eryfin has its limits... & its down to tha intention is it not?
I just feel though tbh, if your friendship is not necessary (i.e. not a work collegue etc) then its better to just not talk to them. Cause you know, tha thirdy party is shaitaan & where there's shaitaan, theres always corruption. :sl:
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Omar_4
08-26-2009, 09:33 PM
I'm sorry...I was very vague

A completely innocent relationship....just make conversation. Nothing could come of it..is that permitted
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Al-Zaara
08-26-2009, 09:46 PM
I was just thinking, if you're asking if it's permissible, could it be you are not 100% true to yourself about it being completely innocent?

If she's attractive and you feel attracted to her, you might wanna think things through and keep your distance. If her personality is very nice and you simply click and start spending more and more time together, you might wanna think things through too and keep your distance.

Oh and btw, the pieces of advice wouldn't change if she was a Muslim.
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cat eyes
08-26-2009, 09:59 PM
it depends weather you are attracted to her or not if you are then it would be haraam to carry on the friendship if it dose any harm to your deen. i don't believe in girl and guy friendship haha
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Omar_4
08-26-2009, 10:06 PM
That makes sense..those will be my guidelines. I'll make sure we're nothing more than friends (not attracted) and that the friendship does not harm my deen.
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rpwelton
08-26-2009, 10:25 PM
Sorry, but there is no such thing as a completely innocent friendship between a man and a woman. Even if it is like that in the beginning, it won't stay like that for long. There's a reason why these types of relationships are prohibited. While there is difference of opinion on this matter, scholars generally will draw the line at maintaining a continuing friendship/relationship with someone of the opposite sex (some forbid mixing at all, others permit it based on necessity) unless you are actively pursuing them for marriage.

I wouldn't consider interacting here on a forum with the opposite sex a type of friendship, unless you're sending PMs back and forth and deliberately responding on threads in a way which might be perceived as such. Otherwise, we are simply sharing Islamic knowledge and advice in a beneficial manner.

Note that this questioner is asking about a friendship, which is a type of relationship (ie, you see/talk to this person on a semi-regular basis). This is different than interacting with someone in an occasional manner out of necessity (ie, working together in the MSA, on a masjid committee, school project, etc).
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cat eyes
08-26-2009, 11:16 PM
inshallaah he might even introduce her to islam. if theres no attraction whats the harm in it.
Reply

Salahudeen
08-27-2009, 02:59 AM
It's haraam to mix with her unless there's a necessity, if it wasn't haraam to mix why do we have segregated weddings?? why do we have segregation in the masjid?? what's the point of segregation if you go out and start mingling with the opposite sex.

the whole point of segregation is to prevent interaction with the opposide gender. In the time of the prophet pbuh when they used to leave the masjid, the men would walk on 1 side of the road and the women would walk on the other side, if mixing wasn't haraam why did they do this when leaving the masjid.

And there's a hadith that goes

"it's better for a man to have a wooden nail driven through his forehead than to touch the hand of a strange women"

if your mixing with her who's to say she wouldn't touch you playfully or you might touch her playfull by mistake.

it doesn't depend on the intention, intentions can get corrupted, it's haraam full stop to mix without necessity.

please read the below for proofs.

Praise be to Allaah.

The meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men are prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah). These acts are prohibited because they are among the causes for fitnah (temptation or trial which implies evil consequences), the arousing of desires, and the committing of indecency and wrongdoing.

Among the many proofs of prohibition of the meeting and mixing of men and women in the Qur’aan and Sunnah are:

Verse No. 53 of Surat al-Ahzab, or the Confederates (Interpretation of the meaning); "...for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs..."

In explaining this Verse, Ibn Kathir (May Allaah have mercy on him) said: "Meaning, as I forbade you to enter their rooms, I forbid you to look at them at all. If one wants to take something from a woman, one should do so without looking at her. If one wants to ask a woman for something, the same has to be done from behind a screen."

The Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) enforced separation of men and women even at Allaah’s most revered and preferred place, the mosque. This was accomplished via the separation of the women’s rows from the men’s; men were asked to stay in the mosque after completion of the obligatory prayer so that women will have enough time to leave the mosque; and, a special door was assigned to women. Evidence of the foregoing are:

Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." Naafi’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik".

Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the men’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the women’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664.

This is the greatest evidence that the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) forbids meeting and mixing of men and women. The farther the men are from the women’s rows, the better, and vice versa.

If these procedures and precautions were prescribed and adhered to in a mosque, which is a pure place of worship where people are as far away as they ever are from the arousal of desire and temptation, then no doubt the same procedures need to be followed even more rigorously at other places.

Abu Usayd al-Ansari narrated that he heard Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) say to the women on his way out of the mosque when he saw men and women mixing together on their way home:
‘Give way (i.e., walk to the sides) as it is not appropriate for you to walk in the middle the road.’ Thereafter, women would walk so close to the wall that their dresses would get caught on it. Narrated by Abu Dawood in "Kitab al-Adab min Sunanihi, Chapter: Mashyu an-Nisa Ma’ ar-Rijal fi at-Tariq."We know that the intermingling, mixing and crowding together of men and women is part of today’s unavoidable yet regrettable affliction in most places, such as markets, hospitals, colleges, etc., but:

· We will not willfully choose or accept mixing and crowding, particularly in religious classes and council meetings in Islamic Centers.

· We take precautions to avoid meeting and mixing of men and women as much as possible while at the same time achieving desired goals and objectives. This result can be achieved by designating separate places assigned for men and women, using different doors for each, utilizing modern means of communication such as microphones, video recorders etc., and expediting efforts to have enough female teachers to teach women, etc.

· We show fear of Allaah as much as we can by not looking at members of the opposite sex and by applying self-restraint.

http://www.muslimconverts.com/women/free-mixing.htm


The body of evidence showing that women and men should not mix freely with one another is quite large. We will briefly mention some of it:

1. Allah says: “And when you ask the ladies for anything, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 53] For women to go about uncovered in the company of men is inarguably a gross violation of the command given in this verse.

2. It is prohibited for men to join women in one place in the absence of at least one of the women’s close male relatives. The Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade men and women from being alone together. He said: “Never is a man alone with a woman except that Satan is the third party with them.”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.”

A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.

This hadîth emphasizes the importance of being wary of in-laws since they are likely to have more opportunities to be alone with the woman and to see her as others do not get the opportunity to see her.

The private meeting between a man and an unchaperoned woman is one of the serious forms of mixing that can take place between the sexes. Temptations are worse when the people know that they are shielded from the sight of others.

Ibn Daqîq al-`Îd makes the following important observation: “We must take into consideration whether or not the man’s arrival at a place brings about a situation where he is alone with the woman. If it does not do so, it is not unlawful for him to go there.” (2/181)

This point was made clear by the Prophet (peace be upon him) when he said: “No man should enter into the presence of a woman after this day unless he is accompanied by one or two other men.” [Sahîh Muslim]

3. There are numerous evidences that the woman may not shake hands with men who are not among her closest relatives.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) never shook hands with an unrelated woman. Umaymah b. Raqîqah said: “I came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) with a group of the women of Madinah to swear fealty for Islam. The women informed Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) that they wished to swear fealty to him. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘I do not shake hands with women. The way I accept the pledge from one woman is the same as with one hundred women.” [al-Muwatta’, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan al-Nasa’î and Sunan Ibn Majah].

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “It is better for one of you to be pierced by a steel pin in his head than to touch the hand of a strange woman.” [Al-Mundhirî mentions that all the narrators of this hadîth are trustworthy. Al-Albânî classifies it as a good hadîth in Ghâyah al-Marâm (no. 403).]

4. The Qur’ân clearly forbids women from being soft of speech while talking to men. Allah says: “Be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) proper.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 32].

5. There is evidence that women may not sit with strange men while wearing perfume. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Any woman who puts on perfume then goes and passes by some men to let them find her scent is a type of adulteress.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan Abî Dâwûd, and Sunan al-Nasâ’î with a sound chain of transmission]

6. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The best of rows in prayer for the man is the first row and the worst for him is the last, and the best of rows for the women is the last row and the worst for her is the first.” [Sahîh Muslim].

If this advice is being given for men and women when they are in their purest frame of mind and engaged in prayer, then how should they be expected to conduct themselves in other situations?

Ibn `Abbâs relates that he prayed one of the `Îd prayers with the Prophet (peace be upon him). He informs us that the Prophet (peace be upon him) prayed and offered a sermon, then he went to the women and offered to them a separate sermon, admonishing them and encouraging them to give charity. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

Ibn Hajr offers the following observations about this hadîth: “The fact that he went to the women separately shows that the women were assembled separately from the men and were not mixed in with them.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/466)]

7. Once the Prophet (peace be upon him) saw men and women mixing together on the road upon their departure from the mosque. He said to the women: “Hold back a bit. You do not have to walk in the middle of the road. You may keep to the sides.” The narrator of the hadîth commented that after that time, women would come so close to the buildings that their dresses would sometime cling to the walls.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission]

Ibn `Umar related that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said about one of the mosque’s doors: “We should leave this door exclusively for women to use.” Ibn `Umar, until he died, never again entered through that door. [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission. Al-Albânî says: “This hadîth is authentic according to the conditions set down by Bukhârî and Muslim.”]

Umm Salamah said: “When the Prophet (peace be upon him) completed the prayer, the women would get up to leave. He would then wait awhile before standing.” Ibn Shahâb said: “I believe that he waited for a while to give the women an opportunity to depart before the men.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

Ibn Hajr comments: “In the hadîth, we see that it is disliked for men and women to mix on the road. How much more, then, should such mixing be avoided inside of houses.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/336)]

8. It was related in al-Bukhârî that women at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not circumambulate the Ka`bah along with the men. `Â’ishah used to go around the Ka`bah at a good distance from the men and avoided mixing with them. Once another woman bade to her to go forward with her so they could touch the corner of the Ka`bah. `Â’ishah refused to do so. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

One of `Âishah’s handmaidens came to her and said: “O Mother of believers, I went around the Ka`bah seven times and touched the corner twice or trice”.

`Âishah replied: “May Allah not reward you for pushing your way through men. It would have been sufficient for you to you to say “Allah Akbar” as you passed by”. [Musnad al-Shâfi`î]

There are two things that this shows us. First, `Â’ishah did not hesitate to circumambulate the Ka`bah when there were men around, nor did she forbid other women from doing so. She only refrained from crowding into men and mixing with them and this is what she prohibited others from doing. This shows us in the clearest of terms that the mere presence of men and women in the same place is not prohibited.

Second, the mixing and contact between men and women circumambulating the Ka`bah that unavoidably occurs during Hajj under today’s crowded conditions cannot be used as proof that such mixing is generally allowed. Firstly, the practice of the people does not constitute any sort of evidence in Islamic Law. Secondly, what is happening today during Hajj is unavoidable. It is permitted out of necessity and cannot be made into a general rule for all times and circumstances. It would be fruitless for us to try and demand that women avoid contact with men while circumambulating the Ka`bah during Hajj. It would be equally impossible to ask them to delay their circumambulations until the crowds depart, especially since the women on Hajj are always accompanied by the others who came with them who cannot be forced to wait around.

It is pure sophistry for anyone to use these exceptional circumstances to argue that men and women are allowed to mingle under circumstances where no necessity exists. It is just as baseless as taking the other extreme and declaring the mere presence or men and women in the same place to be unlawful mixing.

We will conclude by mentioning a few verses of the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Nor come nigh to adultery”. In this verse, Allah does not say “Do not commit adultery” but tells us not even to come close to it. This means that everything that may seduce a person to fall into adultery is unlawful.

Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31] This shows us how men and women are to conduct themselves.

http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cf...sub_cat_id=594


is there any doubt left??
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GuestFellow
08-27-2009, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_4
I'm sorry...I was very vague

A completely innocent relationship....just make conversation. Nothing could come of it..is that permitted
Asslamu Alaikum.

I wouldn't mix. Try to avoid it.

I know at college one girl (non-Muslim) did ask me questions about Islam and I managed to answer some of the questions for her. I later asked a Muslim sister who did Religious Studies to answer the remaining questions for her.

Apparently she was interested in other things as well. :phew

So I would avoid mixing.
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aadil77
08-27-2009, 10:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_4
That makes sense..those will be my guidelines. I'll make sure we're nothing more than friends (not attracted) and that the friendship does not harm my deen.
no don't just pick out the view that suits you - she's not giving you the islamic perspective,

it will harm your deen even if she's an ugly beast and your guidlines by islam are to stay away from her
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Salahudeen
08-27-2009, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
no don't just pick out the view that suits you - she's not giving you the islamic perspective,

it will harm your deen even if she's an ugly beast and your guidlines by islam are to stay away from her

Exactly you can't choose what you think is appropriate when it's clearly haraam for you to mix with her without necessity.

for example some people hold the view that it's ok to sit on a table where alcohol is consumed because it suits them but it's actually haraam for them to do this but they don't care because they can't see what's wrong with it as long as they don't consume the alcohol.

They make their desires the precedence for what is allowed and what isn't, in the religion of Islam.

it's clear in Islam free mixing isn't allowed without necessity, for you to mix with her because you see no harm in it isn't allowed.

many people think it's ok to drink alcohol because they see no harm in it, do you see the point, you don't form your own opinion on whether or not you think it's ok,

you look at what Allah and the rasool say, and they say it's haraam for you to mix with her without necessity.

doesn't matter what I say or any 1 else says or what you think is logical, they've spoken on the matter and made it haraam.

[24:51] The only utterance of the believers, whenever invited to GOD and His messenger to judge in their affairs, is to say, "We hear and we obey." These are the winners.

the question is will you hear and obey or follow what agree's with you??


And whoever contends with and contradicts the Messenger after guidance has been clearly conveyed to him and chooses a path other than that of the Faithful Believers, We shall leave him in the Path he has chosen and land him in Hell, what an evil refuge! [Surah al-Nisaa' 4:115]
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Najm
08-27-2009, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
it depends weather you are attracted to her or not if you are then it would be haraam to carry on the friendship if it dose any harm to your deen. i don't believe in girl and guy friendship haha

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

SubhanAllah! Thats NOT what Islam says. Very, very poor advice.

We dont decide whats harram and halaal.....Islam already tells us.

Feel free to provide your opinion for whatever is in between halaal and haraam.

Dont feel offended.

FiAmaaniAllah
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Woodrow
08-27-2009, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
inshallaah he might even introduce her to islam. if theres no attraction whats the harm in it.
Is not a desire for friendship a level of attraction? Is it possible to be friends with anybody if there is not some type of attraction? Not necessarily a physical relationship attraction, but still an attraction.

Attractions tend to grow stronger as the people get closer and spend more time together. While it is possible for people of opposite genders to maintain a platonic friendship, that can only last if both follow strict guidelines and agree to not spend time alone with each other. In other words respect and dignity as Islam teaches us to interact or not interact with members of the opposite gender.
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Salahudeen
08-27-2009, 05:38 PM
^ also isn't this what the kuffar do, have harmless friendships with opposite gender at first then they begin to fall in love with each other and before you know it some 1s pregnant.

then the following lines come "I never thought I'd fall in love with my best friend" this is what happens lol
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Woodrow
08-27-2009, 06:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
^ also isn't this what the kuffar do, have harmless friendships with opposite gender at first then they begin to fall in love with each other and before you know it some 1s pregnant.

then the following lines come "I never thought I'd fall in love with my best friend" this is what happens lol
People are very adept at deceiving themselves. This could be why our inner jihad is called the Greater Jihad, as it is the hardest jihad we will ever face and the one most likely to lead us to hellfire if we fail to win it.

Sadly even the most honest of people will often lie to themselves, even if they would never lie to another person.
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cat eyes
08-27-2009, 06:40 PM
yeah actually i did not give you the best advice brother. i think it would not be a good idea to carry on the friendship with this girl as it can lead to many haraam things especially because of the fact she is non muslim. i was not thinking actually
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Najm
08-27-2009, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
yeah actually i did not give you the best advice brother. i think it would not be a good idea to carry on the friendship with this girl as it can lead to many haraam things especially because of the fact she is non muslim. i was not thinking actually

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Most welcomed response. JazakiAllah Khair

FiAmaaniAllah
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AnonymousPoster
08-29-2009, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_4
That makes sense..those will be my guidelines. I'll make sure we're nothing more than friends (not attracted) and that the friendship does not harm my deen.

a muslim man cannot be friends with a woman as shaitan is the middle person. It may seem like an innocent relationship but once you or her will start to feel something more and that can lead to problems. I know through experience! A lot of people would say its ok but its forbidden.

jazak allah khair
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