/* */

PDA

View Full Version : If creating sects, in islam is haraam, then why is there shia's and sunni's?



AlexJ90
08-31-2009, 02:55 PM
I am studying the quran and have come across this issue.

In the quran ... surah 3 verse 103 says


And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allâh (i.e. this Qur'ân), and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allâh's Favour on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islâmic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allâh makes His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.



ALSO..

verse 105

And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment.


The Quran clearly says Allah has declared that sectarianism is Haram.

AGAIN mentioned in verse 159 of surah #6:

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast NO PART IN THEM IN THE LEAST, their affair is with Allah, He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

Sects= divinity within islam right?

divinity= sects (sections within islam, i.e. sufi sunni shia) right?

Islam is one religion, there should be no sects or divinity between us brothers.

We should all just be called MUSLIMS. not shia muslims or sunni muslims. The whole point of islam is its oneness.

Thats my opinion.

Any responses or view?

Please discuss.

Jazkallah.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Sampharo
09-01-2009, 03:18 AM
You are in principal correct. There is no error in your judgement. The error is in the sectarians themselves.

The prophet Mohammed -pbuh- said: "The Jews divided amongst them into 71 branches, and the christians divided into 72 branches, and my nation will divide into 73, all of those divisions are (destined) in the Hellfire except for one. They are those who are upon which I am today and my companions." Mosnad Ahmed and narrated by Tabarani and others.

The problem is in people coming up with something different to what the prophet -pbuh- has told us that God has ordained. While all the scholars of Ahlu-Sunnah Wal JamaAAa scholars discuss amongst themselves matters of fiqh (jurisprudence) and shariah that did not have remaining authenticated text to provide a solid opinion about some matters, and use principals of jurisprudence and methodologies to arrive at what they believe would be the appropriate opinion in such marginal matters, they have never disagreed or changed anything that was transfered in knowledge and athenticated from the prophet -pbuh-.

This is what muslims were specifically ordered to do, in one text a Hadith says: "Take my Sunnah (tradition and habits) and the habits of the guided successors after me, hold on to it and bite on it with your molars, and dare not approach innovation, for every innovation is an invention and every invention is misguidance" Mosnad Ahmed, Sahih Al-JameAA, Abu Dawood, Ibn Majeh
"عليكم بسنتي وسنة الخلفاء الراشدين المهديين من بعدي تمسكوا بها وعضوا عليها بالنواجذ، وإياكم و محدثات الأمور، فإن كل محدثة بدعة وكل بدعة ضلالة"

The problem simply arises from those who come up with innovations or philosophical conclusions that go against authenticated textual statements of the prophet or attempt to manipulate faith (aqidah). When it is rejected by the muslim community lead by its scholars, some who feel strongly about their opinion form their sect and separate, such as Shia, khawarej, etc. They take a title for themselves or are given a title to distinguish them.

God maintain our guidance on the path of the prophet and his companions.
Reply

Asim Khan
09-01-2009, 05:25 AM
And another verse (in the opening of The Call of Tanzeem-e-Islami):

42:13. The same Deen has He enjoined for you as that which He enjoined on Noah, the one We have sent by inspiration to you (O Muhammad!), and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: namely that you establish this Deen and make no divisions therein [...]

Alhumdulillah, this was a great article: http://www.islamnewsroom.com/highlig...q-article.html
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 11:40 AM
I understand, but the bottom line is sects within islam is forbidden. I personally call my self a muslim, not shia or sunni.

Please read this statement from a very good article taken out from this site http://janajourneys.blogspot.com/200...-in-islam.html

Those of us who declare loyalty to a specific sect had better beware; sect of Islam is a contradiction of terms. You can have one or the other, not both! In accord with this, verse 32 of surah #30 of the Quran reads:

And be not like those who join gods with Allah, those who split up their religion and become (mere) sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!
The words, "that which is with itself" refer to those differences which people use to justify their separation from Islam. Notice that polytheism, the greatest sin, is prohibited along side with division of religion. This pairing, like everything else in the Quran, is deliberate. It is meant to demonstrate the magnitude of this crime.
All of us must refuse to attribute ourselves to any of the man made divisions of Islam. If anyone asks you if you are Sunni, or Sheea, tell them that you are a Muslim, who believes in the seven beliefs, and practices the five pillars. Tell them that you strive to live according to the way Allah has instructed in the Quran.
Take a moment to reflect upon these questions: To what sect did Mohammed (SAWS) belong to? Whose example was the best example of how a Muslim should live his/her life? If the prophet (SAWS) were alive today, what would his opinion be on this subject? Should we, being followers of Islam, not try to keep our opinion consistent with the prophets (SAWS)? How can a non-Muslim be attracted to Islam knowing that there are so many versions of it, and if a non-Muslim decides to embrace Islam, wouldn't his/her joining of a sect ruin such a beautiful decision? During the time of our beloved prophet (SAWS), Muslims called themselves just that, Muslims. Nobody was a Sheea, or a Bohra, or an Ahmedi, or a Sunni, or an Ismaeli, or a Qadiani or a Duruz, or a Bahai, or an Ansarullah, or anything. All Muslims were equal. Everyone proudly proclaimed the Shahada:
Ash-hadu Allaa ilaaha ill-Allahu WaHdahu laa shareeka lah, wa Ash-hadu Anna MuHammadan abduhu wa rasooluh!
I now call upon all of you to immediately renounce any special religious loyalty which you may posses. For the love of Allah, the one who created you and blessed you with his deen, forget that you belong to any group and be proud that you are Muslim. And renouncing the sect is not enough if we continue to practice Islam with our differences. We must investigate what caused the formation of the sect and what characteristics of the sect are incompatible with Islam. We must seek knowledge of our religion in order to practice it as perfectly as we are capable. It is obvious that anyone who belongs to a sect and claims to be Muslim believes that their sect represents true Islam. I have two things to say to that. First of all, merely labeling oneself as one kind of Muslim or another is Haram as it is division in the most direct sense. Secondly, look up the date the Islam was revealed and then look up the date that your sect of the religion was born. After finding that they are not equal, dont even dare to claim that your sect is true Islam. That would be an insult to the Rasoolullah (SAWS).
As a final reminder, I will introduce another quote from the Holy Quran that again points to the fact that unity among Muslims is an indispensable, fundamental part of Islam:
The approximate meaning is:"Verily, you are one Ummah. I am your Lord, worship me"

I urge all the brothers and sisters to realise sects within islam is not allowed, and labelling yourself anything other than a muslim is forbidden. The whole point of islam its oneness (thats what seperates it from other religions).

Do you think Allah sabhana ta'allah, would like us brothers and sisters getting into conflict within our own religion? creating a divinity!?

Enough said.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Sampharo
09-01-2009, 12:52 PM
^ I don't think anyone here argued that it's not haram to break from the central group that follows the direct dictation of Islam and the prophet. However you seem to be more focused on the titles rather than care about the foundational beliefs and practices that distinguishes these sects and made them separate from the line of the prophet's Sunnah. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. In case I am not, you'll need to heed or consider the following:

1- The name Ahlu-Sunnah Wal JamaAAa was not innovated, it was used by the prophet -pbuh- to describe the companions and when he said there will be division in the future. That name was shortened later to Sunnah and those who follow it are Sunni. He also called the Khawarej by that name and ordained that they be treated as Qotta3 Toroq (Caravan Brigands) and corruptors of the land, to be fought and killed. When he travelled to Madina there were Muhajereen and Ansar. Greatest scholars of Sunnah have identified themselves as Hanafi, Hanbali, and Shafei.

In short I am trying to say that saying "labelling yourself anything other than a muslim is forbidden" is a bit extreme. In concept it is like saying a person can only be called a human being. A person is not only a human being, he's a male or female, free or slave, Arab or persian or african etc. Additionally, saying "calling oneself as anything other than plain muslim is forbidden/haram" requires you to bring the fiqh principal on which that claim is based, as haram and halal is set in shariah, not by human concept. I also advise you to leave such matters to when you discuss it with scholars for they will correct and explain these things to you.

2- The sects that broke off from the Ahlu-Sunnah Wal JamaAAa have far bigger breaches of faith and worship, that they shouldn't be concerned with the label. Many of them denounce the title they were branded with, many have chosen it themselves. They are in that sect either because they isolated themselves, or because they were pushed into it. It's the faith and worship that they need to re-examine and repenting to God for their desertion of the prophet's teachings that they need to do.

If one suggests that we cancel the names of sects, (especially the ones branded by the prophet himself when they broke off the straight path of God) just to celebrate the unity of muslims, then that is a silly idea and will lead to complete corruption. If what you're saying is that sects should shed away their names AND go back to the path of righteousness in faith and practice, then good luck and our duaas and supplications are all for that.

Other than that, yes sects are forbidden by the very definition and with exact text. Yet what can you do about those who wish to break away despite the clarity of God's ordinance?
Reply

Asim Khan
09-01-2009, 01:16 PM
"Verily, you are one Ummah. I am your Lord, worship me"

Yeah, 23:23-52 is like an expansion of 42:13. Alhumdulillah I found a good recitation of the Surah: http://www.archive.org/download/Qura...s/023_64kb.mp3 http://www.emuslim.com/wordforword/j...18-477-483.pdf http://www.emuslim.com/wordforword/j...18-484-490.pdf

If some sectarian insists on asking for your allegiance (trying to make sure if it is not haram for him to give you salam!) even after you've told him repeatedly "Muslim", we could say "Amorphous Muslim". "What's that?" We consider dissolving sects to be critical to Ibadah for the ummah as per 30:30-32.
Reply

alcurad
09-01-2009, 01:25 PM
very simplistically: the Shi'ites-like the Jews- state that ruling is a divine right granted to a particular people: the household of the prophet, Sunni's state that it is the Ummah that decides who rules.

on the other hand, both have much reform to do, but one Is more correct than the other.
Reply

Sampharo
09-01-2009, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Asim Khan
If some sectarian insists on asking for your allegiance (trying to make sure if it is not haram for him to give you salam!) even after you've told him repeatedly "Muslim", we could say "Amorphous Muslim". "What's that?" We consider dissolving sects to be critical to Ibadah for the ummah as per 30:30-32.
Salam in Islam is given to anyone including christians and jews (after modifying it to "Assalamu Ala man ettabaAAa al-Huda" as in "peace be upon those who folllowed the guidance". This is what the prophet taught us.)

If some sectarian asks for allegience, you say it's God, the one and only, and that you are a muslim who follow the straight path shown by the prophet and his blessed companions, and you leave that strange person alone.

Wassalam Alaikom
Reply

alcurad
09-01-2009, 01:36 PM
^straight path shown by the prophet alone brother :).
Reply

Salahudeen
09-01-2009, 01:42 PM
Well sects arise out of differences, and the messenger of Allah peace be upon him told us that Islam will split into 73 sects and only one will go to jannah, the correct one he said is the sect that follow's his sunnah and is upon what him and his companions are upon.

So as long as you make sure that everything you do was done by the messenger of Allah peace be upon him and his companions you'll be ok :)

some of the differences that the sects have are, shia's curse the prophets companions among many other viole things and sunni's don't do this, instead they follow the example of the companions aswell as the prophet peace be upon him.

And another difference is with the sufi's, they have alot of innovated stuff like congregational dhkir, this wasn't done by the prophet (peace be upon him) or his companions. They never sat in a room with the lights off in the dark going, "Allah hu" as far as I'm aware.

Also Sufi's tend to refer to themselves as "Sunni's" and call every 1 else who doesn't believe in sufism a "Wahaaabi" which isn't right because what they refer to as wahaaabi's are people who are the real sunni's because they're trying to follow the sunnah as much as possible.

I classify myself as a sunni because I believe you should follow the prophet's sunnah as much as possible and reject everything that wasn't done by him or his companions. But this doesn't seem to register with other sects.
Reply

alcurad
09-01-2009, 01:43 PM
to note, the 73 sects hadeeth has been called weak by some scholars.
Reply

Asim Khan
09-01-2009, 01:53 PM
Yeah, I don't actually recall anyone in university (in Chicago) asking me (even once) for my sect. I just heard Yusuf Estes, giving an example. Muslims deciding never to visit mosques because of even minor sectarian differences is hard for me to think about (again I don't know of any specific instances).

:sl:
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 02:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
^ I don't think anyone here argued that it's not haram to break from the central group that follows the direct dictation of Islam and the prophet. However you seem to be more focused on the titles rather than care about the foundational beliefs and practices that distinguishes these sects and made them separate from the line of the prophet's Sunnah. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. In case I am not, you'll need to heed or consider the following:

1- The name Ahlu-Sunnah Wal JamaAAa was not innovated, it was used by the prophet -pbuh- to describe the companions and when he said there will be division in the future. That name was shortened later to Sunnah and those who follow it are Sunni. He also called the Khawarej by that name and ordained that they be treated as Qotta3 Toroq (Caravan Brigands) and corruptors of the land, to be fought and killed. When he travelled to Madina there were Muhajereen and Ansar. Greatest scholars of Sunnah have identified themselves as Hanafi, Hanbali, and Shafei.

In short I am trying to say that saying "labelling yourself anything other than a muslim is forbidden" is a bit extreme. In concept it is like saying a person can only be called a human being. A person is not only a human being, he's a male or female, free or slave, Arab or persian or african etc. Additionally, saying "calling oneself as anything other than plain muslim is forbidden/haram" requires you to bring the fiqh principal on which that claim is based, as haram and halal is set in shariah, not by human concept. I also advise you to leave such matters to when you discuss it with scholars for they will correct and explain these things to you.

2- The sects that broke off from the Ahlu-Sunnah Wal JamaAAa have far bigger breaches of faith and worship, that they shouldn't be concerned with the label. Many of them denounce the title they were branded with, many have chosen it themselves. They are in that sect either because they isolated themselves, or because they were pushed into it. It's the faith and worship that they need to re-examine and repenting to God for their desertion of the prophet's teachings that they need to do.

If one suggests that we cancel the names of sects, (especially the ones branded by the prophet himself when they broke off the straight path of God) just to celebrate the unity of muslims, then that is a silly idea and will lead to complete corruption. If what you're saying is that sects should shed away their names AND go back to the path of righteousness in faith and practice, then good luck and our duaas and supplications are all for that.

Other than that, yes sects are forbidden by the very definition and with exact text. Yet what can you do about those who wish to break away despite the clarity of God's ordinance?

Well said akhi. So your saying if we just call ourselfs muslims, it wouldnt sound too rational as a muslim could follow a certain sect? i.e. one out of the 73 (e.g. sufi?).. so your saying by just following ONE sect, which muhammad phuh did... its okay?

Well what sect is that? it sounds to me the sunni's are ..but then again thats just opinion isnt it?

Thanks
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 02:20 PM
I understand your reply, however as you said my point stands in theory as sects within islam are forbidden.. so... could you answer this?... reflect upon these questions: To what sect did Mohammed (SAWS) belong to? Whose example was the best example of how a Muslim should live his/her life? If the prophet (SAWS) were alive today, what would his opinion be on this subject? Should we, being followers of Islam, not try to keep our opinion consistent with the prophets (SAWS)? How can a non-Muslim be attracted to Islam knowing that there are so many versions of it, and if a non-Muslim decides to embrace Islam, wouldn't his/her joining of a sect ruin such a beautiful decision? During the time of our beloved prophet (SAWS), Muslims called themselves just that, Muslims. Nobody was a Sheea, or a Bohra, or an Ahmedi, or a Sunni, or an Ismaeli, or a Qadiani or a Duruz, or a Bahai, or an Ansarullah, or anything
Reply

Sampharo
09-01-2009, 02:29 PM
^straight path shown by the prophet alone brother :).
Actually brother, we were ordered by the prophet to take the habits and traditions from the Khalifat and companions, as in the hadith previously mentioned: "Take my Sunnah (tradition and habits) and the habits of the guided successors after me,....". It is also permissible in fiqh that the close companions of the prophet are acceptable sources of jurisprudence in their actions if authenticated textual orders are not found for the prophet. The basis is that the behaviour and actions of the Companions -ra- of the Prophet -pbuh- were witnessed by the Prophet himself and approved by him. In addition, the prophet -pbuh- said about his companions: "The best of people are my generation, then the generation that follows them, then the one that follows them." (Kitab Assunnah)

خير الناس قرني ثم الذين يلونهم ثم الذين يلونهم ثم الذين يلونهم 1467

And in the Quran God honours them and specifically says that following them in their example will earn the ultimate reward: "And the first to embrace Islam of the Muhaajirun and the Ansaar and also those who followed them exactly (in faith)! Allaah is well-pleased with them as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise) to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success". (at-Tawbah, 100)

All these form the basis of Ahlu Sunnah Wal JamaAAa creed, to the taking of the example of the companions of their piousness and behaviour and their tradition to model our own behaviour after them. The scholars agree on the statement that the companions -RA- were instruments to show us the straight path and God chose them to bring our prophet amongst them so that they support him and work at spreading the message of Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
to note, the 73 sects hadeeth has been called weak by some scholars.
No, brother, I think you are mising it with the one that says "I left amongst you two things once you hold on to them you will never go astray: the book of God and my sunnah". That is the one that is not fully authenticated and some find as daeef. The 73 sects hadeeth is saheeh and authentic from a multitude of sources:

وهذا الحديث رواه الترمذي في سننه، ورواه ابن ماجه، ورواه الإمام أحمد في المسند، والحاكم في المستدرك، وهو حديث مشهور وله طرق متعددة.

هذا الحديث رواه الإمام أحمد، وابن أبي الدنيا، وأبو داود، والترمذي، وابن حبان، والحاكم، وصححوه، ورواه غيرهم أيضًا[1]. رووه عن عوف بن مالك، ومعاوية، وأبي الدرداء، وابن عباس، وابن عمر، وسعد بن أبي وقاص، وعبد الله بن عمرو بن العاص، وواثلة، وأبي أمامة، وغيرهم بألفاظ متقاربة.

Authenticators include Termethi, Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal in his Mosnad, Al-Hakem, Ibn Haban, Ibn Majeh, along with others. All have said it is Sahih and authentic in its narration. There are no untrustworthy people in the link of its narrations, which came from a multitude of witnesses like Ibn Abbas, Abi Addardaa, Ibn Omar, Saad Ibn Abi Waqqas and others.

Barak Allahu Feek though, it is good that you seek to determine accuracy from what is written on these pages, and I thank you for your diligence.
Reply

Sampharo
09-01-2009, 02:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlexIslam
I understand your reply, however as you said my point stands in theory as sects within islam are forbidden.. so... could you answer this?... reflect upon these questions: To what sect did Mohammed (SAWS) belong to? Whose example was the best example of how a Muslim should live his/her life? If the prophet (SAWS) were alive today, what would his opinion be on this subject? Should we, being followers of Islam, not try to keep our opinion consistent with the prophets (SAWS)? How can a non-Muslim be attracted to Islam knowing that there are so many versions of it, and if a non-Muslim decides to embrace Islam, wouldn't his/her joining of a sect ruin such a beautiful decision? During the time of our beloved prophet (SAWS), Muslims called themselves just that, Muslims. Nobody was a Sheea, or a Bohra, or an Ahmedi, or a Sunni, or an Ismaeli, or a Qadiani or a Duruz, or a Bahai, or an Ansarullah, or anything
That's a bit too many questions to try and receive answers on in a forum. But the as I explained in the beginning that Islam was ordained by God and asked the prophet Mohammed to deliver the message, which he did al-hamdolellah, and asked us to follow what he does. When someone refuses to follow then they break off into their own sect. Sunnah is not a sect, they are the mainstream (literal translation for JamaAAa). Sunnah basically means to not follow any sect. Sect is an innovation, and we worship God based on Sunnah. Yes, during the time of Mohammed they called themselves Ahlu Sunnah Wal JamaAAa. Other sects developed afterwards. If he was here today, he would probably say "there you see seventy something sects like you were told. Stay away from all sects and hold on to my Sunnah and the mainstream group, Ahlu Sunnah Wal JamaAAa". This is not an "opinion", it's a stated authenticated hadith. It is also backed with simple straightforward evidence of actual documented sayings of the prophet and the actions of the companions.

Look you need to understand the importance of this part now: If someone asks you who you are, you say muslim. That's it, and that is fine. But If he happens to invite you to a lecture by a scholar, then you NEED to ask if the scholar is a proper muslim on the path of the prophet and from Ahlu Sunnah Wal JamaAAa. You need this to guard your religion from people who corrupted theirs with sectarian faiths that lead them astray, otherwise you will be sitting and learning deviant matters that the prophet never said and God never sent.

Peace brother
Reply

Al-Yasa
09-01-2009, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlexIslam
I understand, but the bottom line is sects within islam is forbidden. I personally call my self a muslim, not shia or sunni.

Please read this statement from a very good article taken out from this site http://janajourneys.blogspot.com/200...-in-islam.html

Those of us who declare loyalty to a specific sect had better beware; sect of Islam is a contradiction of terms. You can have one or the other, not both! In accord with this, verse 32 of surah #30 of the Quran reads:

And be not like those who join gods with Allah, those who split up their religion and become (mere) sects, each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!
The words, "that which is with itself" refer to those differences which people use to justify their separation from Islam. Notice that polytheism, the greatest sin, is prohibited along side with division of religion. This pairing, like everything else in the Quran, is deliberate. It is meant to demonstrate the magnitude of this crime.
All of us must refuse to attribute ourselves to any of the man made divisions of Islam. If anyone asks you if you are Sunni, or Sheea, tell them that you are a Muslim, who believes in the seven beliefs, and practices the five pillars. Tell them that you strive to live according to the way Allah has instructed in the Quran.
Take a moment to reflect upon these questions: To what sect did Mohammed (SAWS) belong to? Whose example was the best example of how a Muslim should live his/her life? If the prophet (SAWS) were alive today, what would his opinion be on this subject? Should we, being followers of Islam, not try to keep our opinion consistent with the prophets (SAWS)? How can a non-Muslim be attracted to Islam knowing that there are so many versions of it, and if a non-Muslim decides to embrace Islam, wouldn't his/her joining of a sect ruin such a beautiful decision? During the time of our beloved prophet (SAWS), Muslims called themselves just that, Muslims. Nobody was a Sheea, or a Bohra, or an Ahmedi, or a Sunni, or an Ismaeli, or a Qadiani or a Duruz, or a Bahai, or an Ansarullah, or anything. All Muslims were equal. Everyone proudly proclaimed the Shahada:
Ash-hadu Allaa ilaaha ill-Allahu WaHdahu laa shareeka lah, wa Ash-hadu Anna MuHammadan abduhu wa rasooluh!
I now call upon all of you to immediately renounce any special religious loyalty which you may posses. For the love of Allah, the one who created you and blessed you with his deen, forget that you belong to any group and be proud that you are Muslim. And renouncing the sect is not enough if we continue to practice Islam with our differences. We must investigate what caused the formation of the sect and what characteristics of the sect are incompatible with Islam. We must seek knowledge of our religion in order to practice it as perfectly as we are capable. It is obvious that anyone who belongs to a sect and claims to be Muslim believes that their sect represents true Islam. I have two things to say to that. First of all, merely labeling oneself as one kind of Muslim or another is Haram as it is division in the most direct sense. Secondly, look up the date the Islam was revealed and then look up the date that your sect of the religion was born. After finding that they are not equal, dont even dare to claim that your sect is true Islam. That would be an insult to the Rasoolullah (SAWS).
As a final reminder, I will introduce another quote from the Holy Quran that again points to the fact that unity among Muslims is an indispensable, fundamental part of Islam:
The approximate meaning is:"Verily, you are one Ummah. I am your Lord, worship me"

I urge all the brothers and sisters to realise sects within islam is not allowed, and labelling yourself anything other than a muslim is forbidden. The whole point of islam its oneness (thats what seperates it from other religions).

Do you think Allah sabhana ta'allah, would like us brothers and sisters getting into conflict within our own religion? creating a divinity!?

Enough said.
this:statisfie:statisfie
Reply

أبو سليمان عمر
09-01-2009, 04:07 PM
Ahl Al-Sunnah wal Jama‘ah are the Muslims who follow the very same way which Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him) and his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) followed.
lets not forget the hadith about the 73 sects all to hell but one so Now to say it is wrong to say i am from Ahul Asunnah wa Jammah (THOSE who are upon the salaf) is wrong. Now if a person doesnt like to say such but does stick to the ways of the salaf then all is well but we shouldnt go around saying u call urself this is this isnt Allowed in islam
There is sects all clam to be muslims and on the right path so we need to distinguish ourself from the innovation
there us a hadith
I asked of my Lord, the Glorified and Exalted, three things; He granted me two, but refused me one. I asked my Lord not to destroy us by that with which He destroyed the nations before us and He granted me this; I asked my Lord, the Glorified and Exalted, not to make an enemy from outside us triumph over us, and He granted me this; and I asked my Lord not to cover us with confusion (make us break) into warring sects, but He refused me this.
so looking at this hadith we see that the third thing he asked was for not to cover us with confusion (make us break) into warring sects, but He refused me this. So again there is sects and will be sects so long as we stick to Ahul Asunnah wa jammah and strive hard to be upon it inshallah we will we are fine

He asked his Lord not to cover his Ummah with confusion in party strife; “Al-labs” is confusion and opinion divergence, “Shi‘a” is the plural of “Shi‘ah” which is a sect, party, group. The prophet (peace be upon him) informed that his Lord granted him the first two requests and did not grant him the third one for a wisdom that He (may He be Blessed and Exalted) only knows.
take from here

The third question of Fatwa no. (4246):

Q3: What is meant by the Hadith of the Prophet (peace be upon him) concerning the Ummah (nation) in which he said: ... all of them will be in Hellfire except one (sect). Which one? Will the other seventy-two sects abide in Hellfire forever as is the ruling on the Mushrik (one who associates others with Allah in His Divinity or worship)?

( Part No : 2, Page No: 231)

When we say “the Ummah of the Prophet (peace be upon him),” does that refer to those who follow him and those who do not follow him?

A: The Ummah meant in this Hadith is Ummah Al-Ijabah (the Ummah which has accepted the Prophet’s Call to Islam) and it will divide into seventy-three sects: seventy-two of them are deviant sects that introduced Bid‘ahs (innovations into the religion) that do not put them beyond the pale of Islam. They will be punished in Hellfire for their deviation and invented practices except those whom Allah pardons and forgives. Their end will be in Paradise. The one saved sect will be Ahl-ul-Sunnah wal-Jama‘ah (those adhering to the Sunnah and the Muslim main body) who abided by the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and remained adhering to the very same way of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) in all affairs. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said about them: A group among my Ummah will continue to follow the truth and to be victorious, and they will not be harmed by those who forsake them or oppose them, until the Command of Allah comes to pass. As to those whom their Bid‘ahs put them beyond the pale of Islam, they fall under Ummah Al-Da‘wah (the Ummah which is called to Islam) and not among the Ummah which accepted Islam; they will be punished by dwelling in Hellfire forever, which is the preponderant scholarly opinion. Another opinion holds that that the meant Ummah in this Hadith is Ummah Al-Da‘wah, which includes each and everyone to whom the Prophet (peace be upon him) was sent: those who believed as well as those who disbelieved him. Consequently, the one excluded is Ummah Al-Ijabah, which exclusively refers to those who truly believed in the Prophet (peace be upon him) and remained so until they died, and it is the meant “saved sect” from Hellfire, either to be rescued from it without being punished at all or after being punished and then they will be admitted to Paradise.

( Part No : 2, Page No: 232)

As for the other seventy-two sects, excluding the one saved sect, they are all disbelievers who will abide in Hellfire forever.

Thus, it becomes clear that “Ummah Al-Da‘wah” is a more general and inclusive term than “Ummah Al-Ijabah” who accepted Da‘wah (the Call to Islam) and believed in Allah and in His Messenger. Anyone who accepted Islam and became one of Ummah Al-Ijabah is also one of Ummah Al-Da‘wah, but not everyone in Ummah Al-Da‘wah (i.e., not everyone who is called to Islam) is also one of Ummah Al-Ijabah (i.e., accepted Islam and became one of the Muslim Ummah).

May Allah grant us success! May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions!

Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’

The splitting of this Ummah into seventy-three sects

Fatwa no. (830):

Q: I read a Hadith mentioned by the Shaykh of Islam, Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdul-Wahab, in his book entitled “Mukhtasar Sirat Al-Rasul” (The Abridged Biography of the Prophet), which states: This Ummah (nation) will split into seventy-three sects, all of them will be in Hellfire except one. I would like a clarification of this issue about which Imam Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdul-Wahab said in his previously mentioned book: “This is one of the most crucial issues. Whoever understands it has well comprehended the religion, and whoever applies it is a true Muslim. May Allah, the Most Generous, grant us its understanding and the ability to apply it.”

( Part No : 2, Page No: 221)

I would also like to know the answer to the following questions, which revolve around the previously mentioned Hadith: 1- Who is the saved sect referred to in the Hadith? 2- Do sects like: Shi‘ah (Shi‘ites), Al-Shafi‘iyah (Shafi‘is), Al-Hanifiyah (Hanafis), Al-Tijaniyyah (Tijanis) and others fall under the seventy-two sects referred to by the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as dwellers of Hellfire? If all these sects are going to be in Hellfire except one, why are they permitted to visit the Sacred House of Allah (i.e. the Ka‘bah)? Was the great Imam wrong, or have you deviated from the right path?

A: First, what Imam Shaykh Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdul-Wahab (may Allah have mercy on him) mentioned in “Mukhtasar Al-Sirah” is part of a Sahih (authentic) and well-known Hadith,narrated by the Compilers of Sunan (Hadith compilations classified by jurisprudential themes) and Musnads (Hadith compilations according to complete chains of narration), such as Abu Dawud, Al-Nasa’y, Al-Tirmidhy and otherswith different wordings, including: “The Jews split into seventy-one sects, all of which are in Hellfire except one; the Christians split into seventy-two sects, all of which are in Hellfire except one; and this Ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of which are in Hellfire except one.”

( Part No : 2, Page No: 222)

According to another narration, “...will split into seventy-three denominations.” In another narration, They said, “O Messenger of Allah! Who is the saved sect?” He (peace be upon him) said, “Those who follow the very same that I and my Companions follow today.” In another narration, he (peace be upon him) said, “It is Al-Jama‘ah (the group that remains adhering to that which the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions followed); the Hand of Allah is over (the hands of) Al-Jama‘ah.”

Second, The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) informed his Sahabah (Companions) of the characteristics of Al-Firqah Al-Najiyah (the Saved Sect) in various narrations of the previously mentioned Hadith; as an answer to their question, “Who is the saved sect?” He said, “Those who follow the very same that I and my Companions follow today.” According to another narration he said, “It is Al-Jama‘ah; the Hand of Allah is over (the hands of) Al-Jama‘ah.” He (peace be upon him) described the saved sect as those who adhere steadfastly in their beliefs, words, deeds and manners to the way of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his Companions (may Allah be pleased with him). They act upon the teachings of the Qur’an and the Sunnah regarding what they should and should not do. They abide by the way of the Muslim Jama‘ah (main body or group), who are the Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them) who followed only the Prophet (peace be upon him) who never spoke of his own desire; it was only Revelations revealed to him.

( Part No : 2, Page No: 223)

Thus, all those who follow the Qur’an, the instructions of the Sunnah, verbal or practical, and the Ijma’ (consensus) of the Ummah, and are not deceived by fallacious opinions, misleading desires, or false interpretations which are violative of the fundamentals of Shari‘ah (Islamic Law) and are rejected by the Arabic language - the mother tongue of the Prophet (peace be upon him) in which the Qur’an was revealed - all those who do so are part of the saved sect, of Ahl-ul-Sunnah wal-Jama‘ah (those adhering to the Sunnah and the Muslim main body).
Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’ <<, for the rest click there
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 06:40 PM
Do sects like: Shi‘ah (Shi‘ites), Al-Shafi‘iyah (Shafi‘is), Al-Hanifiyah (Hanafis), Al-Tijaniyyah (Tijanis) and others fall under the seventy-two sects referred to by the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as dwellers of Hellfire? If all these sects are going to be in Hellfire except one, why are they permitted to visit the Sacred House of Allah (i.e. the Ka‘bah)? ?

yes or no?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-01-2009, 06:43 PM
stealing as haram yet we have thieves
zina is haram yet we have adulterers
backbiting is haram yet we have mischief makers



the shaytan inspires these sins into peoples hearts

the same goes for sects - its just a huge outcome from shaytans whispers


Assalamu Alaikum
Reply

Asim Khan
09-01-2009, 06:59 PM
As brother Sampharo wrote, the prophet saw himself said to also follow the rightly guided caliphs after following him. But what good does it do for someone to say he is Sunni/that he abides by this hadith when he tends to think "those hadith were written after such a long time" to help himself to take Riba or masterbation to be perfectly fine?

Here is Sheikh Yusuf Estes' full argument, Subhanallah!

http://www.hearislam.com/pic.php?id=377
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
09-01-2009, 07:09 PM
Sunni's aren't a sect.
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdu-l-Majeed
Sunni's aren't a sect.
they arnt? why? ..and are shi'as a sect then?
Reply

sur
09-01-2009, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlexIslam
I am studying the quran and have come across this issue.

In the quran ... surah 3 verse 103 says


And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allâh (i.e. this Qur'ân), and be not divided among yourselves, ........... Thus Allâh makes His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.
Why sects???

Because of leaving Quran(Rope of ALLAH) the 3rd class status. & taking Sunnah superior to Quran & giving 1st class status to "BLIND-Bandwagoning" of so-called scholars.


If we keep the right order:-
Quran(The Rope of ALLAH)>>>>Sunnah>>>>>Scholars...... There would be NO scets.



A person was asked by Prophet, how would he get the guidence, he replied from QURAN..... then Prophet asked if u don't find the answer in Quran then??? He replied, from Sunnah..... Prophet asked if not even from sunnah then??? He replied he'll work it out himself in light of Quran & sunnah

Quran was all written down during prophet's life, while sunnah was written down quite a while after his death. There are NO mistakes in Quran while there are human errors inserted in recording of sunnah. That's why we have "Authentic" & "Non-Authentic" ahadees.....


So when we find answer to something in Quran there's no need to go any further. If we unable to find aanswer in Quran then we should turn to Sunnah.... & so on...
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
09-01-2009, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlexIslam
they arnt? why? ..and are shi'as a sect then?
Please define a Sunni.
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdu-l-Majeed
Please define a Sunni.
a total opposie of a shi'a lol;D
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 07:45 PM
*opposite............
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
09-01-2009, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlexIslam
a total opposie of a shi'a lol;D
If they are total opposites, how can they both be sects?
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 08:51 PM
shi'asm is a sect within islam is it not?... as there view differs from 85% of the muslim world population..(which are sunni's.. according to encyclopedia)

so yeah please answer.. WHY are sunni's NOT a sect?
Reply

أبو سليمان عمر
09-01-2009, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlexIslam
Do sects like: Shi‘ah (Shi‘ites), Al-Shafi‘iyah (Shafi‘is), Al-Hanifiyah (Hanafis), Al-Tijaniyyah (Tijanis) and others fall under the seventy-two sects referred to by the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) as dwellers of Hellfire? If all these sects are going to be in Hellfire except one, why are they permitted to visit the Sacred House of Allah (i.e. the Ka‘bah)? ?

yes or no?
Abu Haneefah, Maalik ibn Anas, ash-Shaafi’ee, Ahmad ibn Hanbal
SO Haneefi, maaliki , shaafies, hanbals are not sects but schools of thought
shia sufi etc are sects
Reply

AlexJ90
09-01-2009, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
Abu Haneefah, Maalik ibn Anas, ash-Shaafi’ee, Ahmad ibn Hanbal
SO Haneefi, maaliki , shaafies, hanbals are not sects but schools of thought
shia sufi etc are sects
shia are sects?... so are you saying the shi'as are in the wrong?
Reply

alcurad
09-01-2009, 10:44 PM
brother sempharo:

حديث افتراق الأمة إلى فرق فوق السبعين كلها في النار إلا واحدة، فيه كلام كثير في ثبوته وفي دلالته.

أ- فأول ما ينبغي أن يعلم هنا أن الحديث لم يرد في أي من الصحيحين، برغم أهمية موضوعه، دلالة على أنه لم يصح على شرط واحد منهما.

وما يقال من أنهما لم يستوعبا الصحيح، فهذا مسلم، ولكنهما حرصا أن لا يدعا بابا مهما من أبواب العلم إلا ورويا فيه شيئا ولو حديثا واحدا.

ب- إن بعض روايات الحديث لم تذكر أن الفرق كلها في النار إلا واحدة، وإنما ذكرت الافتراق وعدد الفرق فقط. وهذا هو حديث أبي هريرة الذي رواه أبو داود والترمذي وابن ماجه وابن حبان والحاكم وفيه يقول:

"افترقت اليهود على إحدى ـ أو اثنتين ـ وسبعين فرقة، وتفرقت النصارى على إحدى ـ أو اثنتين ـ وسبعين فرقة، وتفترق أمتي على ثلاث وسبعين فرقة".

والحديث ـ وإن قال فيه الترمذي: حسن صحيح، وصححه ابن حبان والحاكم ـ مداره على محمد بن عمرو بن علقمة بن وقاص الليثي، ومن قرأ ترجمته في "تهذيب التهذيب"، علم أن الرجل متكلم فيه من قبل حفظه، وإن أحدا لم يوثقه بإطلاق وكل ما ذكروه أنهم رجحوه على من هو أضعف منه. ولهذا لم يزد الحافظ في التقريب على أن قال: صدوق له أوهام. والصدق وحده في هذا المقام لا يكفي ما لم ينضم إليه الضبط، فكيف إذا كان معه أوهام؟؟*!

ومعلوم أن الترمذي وابن حبان والحاكم من المتساهلين في التصحيح، وقد وصف الحاكم بأنه واسع الخطو في شرط التصحيح.

وهو هنا صحح الحديث على شرط مسلم، باعتبار أن محمد بن عمرو احتج به مسلم، ورده الذهبي بأنه لم يحتج به منفردا، بل بانضمامه إلى غيره (1/6). على أن هذا الحديث من رواية أبي هريرة ليس فيه زيادة: أن الفرق "كلها في النار إلا واحدة" وهي التي تدور حولها المعركة.

وقد روي الحديث بهذه الزيادة من طريق عدد من الصحابة: عبد الله بن عمرو، ومعاوية، وعوف بن مالك وأنس، وكلها ضعيفة الإسناد، وإنما قووها بانضمام بعضها إلى بعض.

والذي أراه أن التقوية بكثرة الطرق ليست على إطلاقها، فكم من حديث له طرق عدة ضعفوه، كما يبدو ذلك في كتب التخريج، والعلل، وغيرها! وإنما يؤخذ بها فيما لا معارض له، ولا إشكال في معناه.

وهنا إشكال أي إشكال في الحكم بافتراق الأمة أكثر مما افترق اليهود والنصارى من ناحية، وبأن هذه الفرق كلها هالكة وفي النار إلا واحدة منها. وهو يفتح بابا لأن تدعى كل فرقة أنها الناجية، وأن غيرها هو الهالك، وفي هذا ما فيه من تمزيق للأمة وطعن بعضها في بعض، مما يضعفها جميعا، ويقوي عدوها عليها، ويغريه بها.

ولهذا طعن العلامة ابن الوزير في الحديث عامة، وفي هذه الزيادة خاصة، لما تؤدي إليه من تضليل الأمة بعضها لبعض، بل تكفيرها بعضها لبعض.

قال رحمه الله في "العواصم" وهو يتحدث عن فضل هذه الأمة، والحذر من التورط في تكفير أحد منها، قال: وإياك والاغترار بـ "كلها هالكة إلا واحدة" فإنها زيادة فاسدة، غير صحيحة القاعدة، ولا يؤمن أن تكون من دسيس الملاحدة.

I actually meant this, thanks though
Reply

anonymous
09-02-2009, 04:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
Well sects arise out of differences, and the messenger of Allah peace be upon him told us that Islam will split into 73 sects and only one will go to jannah, the correct one he said is the sect that follow's his sunnah and is upon what him and his companions are upon.

So as long as you make sure that everything you do was done by the messenger of Allah peace be upon him and his companions you'll be ok :)

some of the differences that the sects have are, shia's curse the prophets companions among many other viole things and sunni's don't do this, instead they follow the example of the companions aswell as the prophet peace be upon him.

And another difference is with the sufi's, they have alot of innovated stuff like congregational dhkir, this wasn't done by the prophet (peace be upon him) or his companions. They never sat in a room with the lights off in the dark going, "Allah hu" as far as I'm aware.

Also Sufi's tend to refer to themselves as "Sunni's" and call every 1 else who doesn't believe in sufism a "Wahaaabi" which isn't right because what they refer to as wahaaabi's are people who are the real sunni's because they're trying to follow the sunnah as much as possible.

I classify myself as a sunni because I believe you should follow the prophet's sunnah as much as possible and reject everything that wasn't done by him or his companions. But this doesn't seem to register with other sects.

Wahabbi are the most corrupted sect of muslims. I don't even have to start. Same goes for salafis.
Reply

anonymous
09-02-2009, 04:17 AM
And No, i am not sufi nor shia. Just Muslim :) . Following the sunnah and Qur'an to the best of my ability.

Against the ******sm and salafism.
Reply

Salahudeen
09-02-2009, 04:21 AM
hmm interesting, why don't you eductate me,

what is a "wahaaabi" according to you?? define what a "wahaaabi" is and what is incorrect about his beliefs, and then define how he differs with you and what you believe. And explain why you refer to him as "wahaaabi" and what is "corrupt" about him.

You say your following the sunnah and the Qur'an but according to who's interpretation are you following it? your own? or your sheikh who's reached such a high status that he's become 1 with Allah? :)
Reply

IslamicRevival
09-02-2009, 04:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
Well sects arise out of differences, and the messenger of Allah peace be upon him told us that Islam will split into 73 sects and only one will go to jannah, the correct one he said is the sect that follow's his sunnah and is upon what him and his companions are upon.

So as long as you make sure that everything you do was done by the messenger of Allah peace be upon him and his companions you'll be ok :)

some of the differences that the sects have are, shia's curse the prophets companions among many other viole things and sunni's don't do this, instead they follow the example of the companions aswell as the prophet peace be upon him.

And another difference is with the sufi's, they have alot of innovated stuff like congregational dhkir, this wasn't done by the prophet (peace be upon him) or his companions. They never sat in a room with the lights off in the dark going, "Allah hu" as far as I'm aware.

Also Sufi's tend to refer to themselves as "Sunni's" and call every 1 else who doesn't believe in sufism a "Wahaaabi" which isn't right because what they refer to as wahaaabi's are people who are the real sunni's because they're trying to follow the sunnah as much as possible.

I classify myself as a sunni because I believe you should follow the prophet's sunnah as much as possible and reject everything that wasn't done by him or his companions. But this doesn't seem to register with other sects.
Its Zikr of Allah SWT, What on earth is wrong with that?
Reply

Salahudeen
09-02-2009, 04:49 AM
^ it's an act of worship that isn't in accordance with the prophets sunnah peace be upon him, in Islam all acts of worship have to be done in accordance with the prophets sunnah peace be upon him.

for example can you pray 4 rakaat for maghrib instead of 3? no because the prophet only prayed 3 but just like what you're saying here somebody could say with this aswell

"what's wrong with praying 4 rakaat for maghrib instead of 3 we're doing something good"

what's wrong is the prophet pbuh never did it that way, acts of worship that aren't in accordance with his sunnah are newly innovations unless you can show me where it's mentioned that the prophet peace be upon him and his companions sat in a dark room and did group dhikr, then I'll follow it myself if the prophet peace be upon him and his companions did it.

but if you can',t that means your following whoever introduced this pratice of group dhikr, your following him because to my knowledge the prophet pbuh never did group dhikr.

He did dhikr after salah individually which should be done because we know he did it, it's narrated in the sunnah. We do dhikr like this because it's in accordance with his teachings. and by doing dhikr in this manner we're following his sunnah.
Reply

IslamicRevival
09-02-2009, 04:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
^ it's an act of worship that isn't in accordance with the prophets sunnah peace be upon him, in Islam all acts of worship have to be done in accordance with the prophets sunnah peace be upon him.

for example can you pray 4 rakaat for maghrib instead of 3? no because the prophet only prayed 3 but just like what you're saying here somebody could say with this aswell

"what's wrong with praying 4 rakaat for maghrib instead of 3 we're doing something good"

what's wrong is the prophet pbuh never did it that way, acts of worship that aren't in accordance with his sunnah are newly innovations unless you can show me where it's mentioned that the prophet peace be upon him and his companions sat in a dark room and did group dhikr, then I'll follow it myself if the prophet peace be upon him and his companions did it.

but if you can',t that means your following whoever introduced this pratice of group dhikr, your following him because to my knowledge the prophet pbuh never did group dhikr.

He did dhikr after salah individually which should be done because we know he did it, it's narrated in the sunnah. We do dhikr like this because it's in accordance with his teachings. and by doing dhikr in this manner we're following his sunnah.
:hmm: Its kind of funny you claiming Sufis are "innovators" yet you yourself are talking absolute nonsense.

What is wrong with gathering and remembering Allah SWT? How can you say this is wrong?!!

Also Answer this, where does it say we are allowed to use the Microwave? Are we all innovators because we use the microwave?
Reply

Salahudeen
09-02-2009, 05:02 AM
^ innovations in the religion lol and how am I talking nonsense I could say your talking nonsense doesn't mean anything.

There'd be nothing wrong with it, if the prophet and his companions did it because they are our examples, did they ever get together and switch off the lights and start chanting?

I don't know about you but I choose the follow the prophets sunnah and the companions which your not doing when you gather to worship Allah by doing congregational dhikr.

Do you agree that dhikr is an act of worship?

Oh I just realised what I think you meant, was you talking about me saying that all acts of worship have to be in accordance with the sunnah?? you calling that absolute nonsense? You might like to consider the following.

Abu Dawud also reported from al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, that “the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) led us in prayer one day, then he turned to us and exhorted us strongly . . . (he said), ‘Pay attention to my sunnah (way) and the way of the Rightly-guided Khaleefahs after me, adhere to it and hold fast to it.’” (Sahih Abi Dawud, Kitaab al-Sunnah).

Al-Irbaadh bin Saariyah reported that Allaah’s Messenger gave the Companions (Sahaabah) an exhortation one-day after the fajr Prayer which caused their eyes to shed tears and their hearts to quiver. So a man said, "This sounds like a final exhortation, so counsel us, O Allaah’s Messenger (SAW)." He (SAW) said,"I counsel you to fear and revere Allaah, and to listen and obey (your Muslim ruler) – even if an Ethiopian slave becomes your leader. Those who will live (after me) will see much dissension (among the Muslims); so adhere to my Sunnah and the Sunnah (way) of the rightly guided successors after me; cling to that with your teeth. Beware of novelties (in the Deen), for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is a deviation (from the true guidance). "
(At-Tirmidthee who reported it to be (authentic) Sahih)

see the key sentence, "every innovation is a deviation" isn't congregational dhikr an innovation because it was don't by the prophet pbuh or his companions?


Ibn Mas`ud (RAA) used to say, "Doing a little of the Sunna is better than striving hard in innovation."


Al-Hasan ibn Abi’l-Hasan (RH) said, "A little action following a sunna is better than a lot of action following an innovation."

you refer to ensuring that all acts of worship are in accordance with the sunnah as nonsense when there's countless hadith on the importance of it?
Reply

IslamicRevival
09-02-2009, 05:08 AM
You know what, This is the blessed month of Ramadhan and its best if the mods close this sensitive thread.

I have no energy to talk to someone who claims gathering and remembering Allah SWT is an "innovation" (AstaghFirullah!)

Biggest pile of rubbish i have ever heard. I will leave you with this:

Abu Huraira narrated that Rasool Allah (SAW) said, “Any gathering in which people sit and do not do Zikr of Allah and do not send Durood upon their Prophet (SAW) is of loss for them. If Allah wills, give them azab (punishment) and if wills, forgive them.” (Tirmizi)

Abu Huraira narrated that Rasool Allah (SAW) said, “Allah Tabaraka wa Ta’ala says I am closer to my slave than his supposition of which he keeps of me. And when he/her does Zikr of Allah, I am with him/her. If he does Zikr in his heart, I do his Zikr near MY proximity (closeness) and if he does Zikr in a gathering, I mention him in a gathering Afdhal (better) than it. (Bukhari)

You seriously need to take back what you said. Think its time i went to sleep now.
Reply

Salahudeen
09-02-2009, 05:31 AM
Subanhallah, I'm calling you to the sunnah and to leave bid'a and your saying it's the biggest pile of rubbish you've ever heard.

You know what happens to Ahlul bid'a at Al Kawthar? they go to drink out the prophets (saw) pond and the angels descend and pull them away and the prophet peace be upon him says "what are you doing? these are from my ummah" then the angels will say "no you don't know what newly invented stuff they introduced into the religion after you" then the prophet (Saw) will say "take them".

Consider this

'Abdullaah ibn 'Umar radiallaahu 'anhu said:
"Every innovation is misguidance, even if the people consider it to be something good."

'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood radiallaahu 'anhu said:
"Follow and do not innovate, for you have been given that which is sufficient [and every innovation is misguidance].

hmm are you understanding that hadith with your own intellect? it's very dangerous to interpret hadith based on your own understanding.

What the hadith is talking about is, at the start of any group gathering / lectures the speaker always mentions the name of Allah and then he sends salutations upon the prophet his family and his companions in order to implement this hadith you mentioned.

Just like you see at jummah before the imam addresses the congregation he implements the above hadith by remembering Allah and sending sallutations upon his prophet pbuh.

I don't know if you've been to any islamic lectures/gatherings but you'll notice the speaker always starts the discussion off by mentioniong the name of ALlah and he sends salutations upon the prophet and his family, they do this because of the hadith you quoted.

it dont mean we do big groupy zikr thing in unison and can you tell me why when these people do dhikr hey sway back n forth?

Where in the above hadith does it say gather and remember allah by saying Allah hu and shaking your heads?

Also the scholars over at Islam QA also agree that congregational dhikr is not from the sunnah, read the below.

With regard to dhikr recited in unison, the Standing Committee was asked about du’aa’ and dhikr recited in unison, and they answered:

The basic principle concerning dhikr and acts of worship is that there is no room for adding or subtracting anything. Allaah should only be worshipped in the ways that He has prescribed; this applies whether it is something that can be done at any time or something that is limited to a specific time and how it is to be done and how many times it is to be done. With regard to dhikrs and du’aa’s that Allaah has prescribed and all kinds of worship that are not limited with regard to time and numbers, location or a particular way in which they are to be done, it is not permissible for us to adhere to a particular way, time or number; rather we are to do these acts of worship without restrictions as it was prescribed.

In matters where it isproven in the words or deeds of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that an action is to be done at a certain time or a certain number of times or in a certain place or in a certain manner, then we should worship Allaah in accordance with what has been prescribed. It has not been proven from the words or deeds or approval of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that he recited du’aa’ in unison with others following the prayers, or after reading Qur’aan, or following each lesson, whether that took the form of the imaam reciting du’aa’ and the congregation saying Ameen to his du’aa’, or whether they all recited du’aa’ together in unison. That was not known at the time of the Rightly-Guided Khaleefahs or any of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them). Whoever adheres to the practice of reciting du’aa’ in unison following the prayers or after reading Qur’aan or after every lesson has innovated something and introduced into the religion something which is not a part of it. It was narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever innovates something in this matter of ours (i.e. Islam) that is not part of it will have it rejected.” And he said: “Whoever does something that is not in accordance with this matter of ours (Islam) will have it rejected.”

If it were prescribed to adhere to a certain way of doing it, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his successors (khulafa’) after him would have adhered to that. We have stated above that no such thing was proven from him or from his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them). All goodness is to be found in following the guidance of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the guidance of the Rightly-Guided Khulafa’ (may Allaah be pleased with them); all evil is to be found in going against their guidance and following the innovated matters against which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) warned us by saying, “Beware of newly-innovated matters, for every innovation is misguidance.” May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions, and grant them peace.

Fataawa Islamiyyah, 4/178

see the bit where he says "Allaah should only be worshipped in the ways that He has prescribed;"

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/10491...tional%20dhikr
Reply

Salahudeen
09-02-2009, 05:39 AM
Also I have an hadith for you which you may find interesting, it's to do with what some people did after the prophet peace be upon him passed away and how Ibn Masud rebuked them for innovating something that wasn't done by the prophet peace be upon him. It basically refutes your hadith because the people were doing what you claim to be doing "remembering Allah" and Ibn Masud told them off. Surely ibn Masud wouldn't have admonished them for doing something that the prophet (peace be upon him approved of right)? lol

We used to sit in front of Abdullah ibn Masoud’s house before the Fajr prayer waiting to go with him to the Masjid. Abou Mousa al-Ash`aarie came and asked us:

‘Did Abu Abdurrahman (i.e. Ibn Masoud) leave yet?’

We answered: ‘No.’

So Abou Mousa Al-Ash`aarie sat with us waiting for him. When he came out, we all stood up. Abou Mousa told him:

“Oh, Abu Abdurrahman! I recently saw something in the Masjid which I did not approve.”

Ibn Masoud then asked: “What was it?”

Abou Mousa said: “You will see it if you stay alive..In the Masjid, I saw a group of people sitting in circles waiting for the Salat. Each circle is led by a person. And every person in these circles carries small stones.

The leader of a circle would say: ‘Say ‘Allah-u Akbar’ a hundred times,’ they will say Allah-u Akbar a hundred times; then he says ‘Say ‘La ilaha Illa Allah’, a hundred times” they will say La ilaha ill Allah a hundred times; he they says: ‘Say ‘Subhan Allah’, a hundred times, they will say Subhana Allah a hundred times.

Then Ibn Masoud said: “What did you tell them?”

He said: ‘I didn’t say anything, I wanted to wait for your opinion.”

Abdullah ibn Masoud said: “Could you not order them to count their sins, and assured them of getting their rewards.”

Then Abdulah ibn Masoud went ahead and we accompanied him. As he approached one of the circles, he said: “What is this that you are doing?”

They said: “Oh! Abu Abdurrahman, these are pebbles to count the number of times we say Allah-u Akbar, La ilaha Ill Allah, and Subhana Allah.”

He said: “Count your own sins, and I assure you that you are not going to lose anything of your rewards (Hasanat).. Woe unto you, people of Muhammad, how fast you will be doomed. Those are your Prophet’s companions available, these are his clothes not worn out yet, and his pots are not broken yet. I swear by Whom my soul is in His Hands that you are either following a religion that is better than the Prophet’s religion or you are opening a door of aberration.”

They said: “We swear by Allah, oh, Abu Abdurrahman, that we had no intention other than doing good deeds.”

He said: “So what? How many people wanted to do good deeds but never got to do them? The Prophet of Allah has told us about people who recited the Qur’an with no effect on them other than the Qur’an passing through their throats. I swear by Allah, I am almost sure that most of you are from that type of people.”

Then he left them.

Amr Ibn Salamah said: “We saw most of the people of those circles fighting us with the Khawarij in the battle of An-Nahrawan.”

- Related by Ad-Daremie and Abu Na`eim with an authentic chain.

"If it's allowed as you claim based upon the hadith that you quoted then ibn masud would not tell those people off in the masjid about their session and if that was the understanding of it then the sahaaba would of been the best and foremost at it but what you find is that they excelled in the correct dhikr wich is in private facing the qibla and reciting the various things the prophet saws told us to.

Why is Ibn Masood telling them off for doing something that you claim to be halal, have you become more knowledgable than Ibn masood? a great companion of the prophet saw

Al-Shafi’(RH), may Allaah have mercy on him, said: “I do not know of anyone among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een who narrated a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) without accepting it, adhering to it and affirming that this was sunnah Those who came after the Taabi’een, and those whom we met did likewise: they all accepted the reports and took them to be sunnah, praising those who followed them and criticizing those who went against them. Whoever deviated from this path would be regarded by us as having deviated from the way of the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the scholars who followed them, and would be considered as one of the ignorant.

can you see any of the sahaabah and taabi'een doing congregational dhikr? rather they spoke out against it just like the first hadith mentions.



"So the above is an excellent narration, it encompasses many great principles, which are not known except to those who follow the Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, those who do not put anything before Allaah and His Messenger, but rather say: We hear and we obey.

So from the principles are:

Firstly: That the One who prescribed the ends, did not Forget to prescribe the means. So when Allaah prescribed For His servants the dhikr (rememberance of Allaah), He did not forget to prescribe the means and the way to do this. So Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam used to count the tasbeeh (glorifications of Allaah) upon his right hand [5] and he said that they (i.e., the fingers) will he questioned and would speak. [6]

Secondly: That al-bid'ah al-idbaafiyyah is misguidance. And al-bid'ah al-idbaafiyyah is: that type of innovation which is based upon a proof with regards to its foundation, but it has no proof with regards to the manner or the form. That is why it is called idbaafiyyah (something added on). And this type of innovation is, from one angle, directly against correct guidance, and from another angle, it is in agreement with it. So these people did not say something which is kufr (disbelief), nor did they do something which was in itself evil, rather they were remembering Allaah - and this is something which is prescribed by Revelation. However, the manner in which they performed this action went against the guidance laid down by Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, and so the Companions opposed them and told them to count this amongst their evil actions instead.

Thirdly: Allaah - the Most Perfect, the Most High - is not to be worshipped, except by what He prescribes. So He is not to be worshipped according to desires, customs or innovations.

Fourthly: That innovations kill off the Sunnah. So this group of people innovated a new way of performing dhikr (remembering Allaah), which was not reported from Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam. So in doing this, they killed off the guidance of Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam. And this is a principle which the Salafus-Saalih (Pious Predecessors) well understood, and they knew for certain that innovations and the Sunnah cannot unite together:

Hassaan ibn 'Atiyyah (d.120H)- rahimahullaah - said: "No people introduce an innovation into their religion, except that its like from the Sunnah is ripped away from them." [7]

Fifthly: That innovations are the cause for destruction, since it leads to abandoning the Sunnah, and this causes tremendous misguidance. The noble Companion 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood radiallaahu 'anhu said: "If you were to abandon the Sunnah of your Prophet then you would go astray." [8] So if the Ummah goes astray then it is destroyed. Therefore 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood said to that group: "O Ummah of Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam! How quickly you head into destruction."

So the particular relevance of Ibn Mas'ood's understanding is reflected in the context of the above narration. So Abu Moosaa al-Ash'aree radiallaahu 'anhu did not criticise them, rather he waited for the view or the order of 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood radiallaahu 'anhu. And this stance was not merely taken out of love or out of displaying false affection to Ibn Umm 'Abd (i.e. to Ibn Mas'ood). Rather Abu Moosaa was pleased for himself with what Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam was pleased with for his Ummah, since he sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "l am pleased for my Ummah with what Ibn Umm 'Abd is pleased with for it." [9]

Also in the narration is a proof that all of the Companions were agreed in opposing this action, since 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood radiallaahu 'anhu used as a proof the fact that the Companions radiallaahu 'anhum were wide spread (and therefore could easily be asked).

Sixthly: Innovations quickly lead to kufr (disbelief). This is because the innovator has set himself up as one who is able to legislate and prescribe things; and thus set himself up as a partner to Allaah, adding things to the rulings laid down by Allaah, thinking that he is on a religion of better guidance than the Religion of Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

Seventhly: That innovations open the doors widely for disagreements to occur, and this is a door to misguidance. So whosoever lays down an evil way in Islaam, then he bears the sin of it and the sin of those who act upon it, until the Day of Judgement, without their sin being reduced by anything. And this is because the one who guides to an evil action is like the one who does it.

Eighthly: Not giving importance to the matter of shunning innovations, leads to evil and sins. Do you not see that these people came to be amongst the ranks of the deviated group called the Khawaarij on the day of Nahrawaan, fighting against the Companions radiallaahu 'anhum, who were led by the Leader of the Believers 'Alee radiallaahu 'anhu, who cut-off this deviated group, on that memorable day.

Imaam al-Barbahaaree (d.329H)- rahimahullaah - said: "Beware of small innovations, because they grow and become large. This was the case with every innovation introduced into this Ummah. It started as something small, bearing a resemblance to the truth, which is why those who entered into it were misled, and then were unable to leave it. So it grew and it became the religion which they followed, so they deviated from the Straight Path and thus left Islaam. May Allaah have mercy upon you! Examine carefully the speech of everyone you hear from, in your time particularly. So do not act in haste, nor enter into anything from it, until you ask and see: Did any of the Companions of the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam speak abou t it, or any of the (early) Scholars? So if you find a narration from them about it, cling to it and do not go beyond it for anything, nor give precedence to anything over it and thus fall into the Fire." [10]

Ninthly: Righteous actions are only according to righteous intentions, and a good intention does not make something which is futile correct. This is because intentions alone cannot make an action correct, but rather complying with the Sharee'ah (Prescribed Laws) must be added to that. [11]

Finally: Adding to something good is not good, because addition in good is evil, and this is something that is witnessed in everything. Thus, a matter, when it goes beyond its limits, changes to its opposite. So bravery, when it is added to, turns into rashness, and if it is decreased from, then it becomes cowardice. And generosity, if its limits are exceeded, then it becomes wastefulness, and if it is fallen short of, then it becomes miserliness. So the best of the affairs are the justly balanced ones.

And 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood radiallaahu 'anhu was not alone amongst the Companions in condemning innovations. So here we find 'Abdullaah ibn 'Umar radiallaahu 'anhu, who was one of severest from the Companions in condemning innovations and abandoning the innovators. So once he heard a man sneezing and saying: Praise be to Allaah and may the salaah and salaam (the praises of Allaah and blessings of peace) be upon Allaah's Messenger. So he said to him: What is this? This is not what Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam taught us, rather he said: "When one of you sneezes then let him praise Allaah. " And he did not say: And also send salaah (blessings of peace) upon Allaah's Messenger. [12]

Likewise was the practice of the taabi'een (those who met the Companions and clung to their way). So in this regard there is what is reported from Sa'eed ibn al-Musayyib (d.90H) rahimahullaah, that he saw a man praying after the appearance of dawn, more than two rak'ahs, making many rukoos (bowings) and sajdahs (prostrations), so he forbade him from this. So the man said: O Abu Muhammad (i.e. Ibn al-Musayyib)! Will Allaah punish me for my Prayer? So he said: "No! But He will punish you for opposing the Sunnah (Prophetic guidance)." [13]

And these narrations contain many good points of benefit, so from them:

[i] The Companions rebutting everyone who went against the au thentic Sunnah, sometimes being very severe in their rebuttal, even if it was against their own fathers and sons.

[ii] That bid'ah at-tarkiyyah is misguidance: And this type of bid'ah (innovation) is one for which there is a proof to establish the action, except that the people deliberately leave the action, thinking that it is a part of the Religion, or something similar to it. For example, some of the Soofees who abandon marriage in order to emasculate themselves. The proof for this being misguidance is from Allaah - the Most High's - saying:

"O you who Believe! Do not make haraam (unlawful) the good things that Allaah has made halaal (lawful) to you, and do not transgress. Indeed Allaah does not love the transgressors. And eat of the things that Allaah has provided for you, lawful and good, and have taqwaa (fear and obedience) of Allaah in Whom you believe." [Soorah al-Maa'idah 5:87-88].

So this aayah (verse) is concerned with a single meaning, which is: making forbidden that which Allaah has allowed from the good and pure things, and doing so as a matter of religion. And Allaah has forbidden this, and considered it as going beyond the limits, since it is transgressing upon Allaah's right, in that He alone has the right to prescribe and legislate. And Allaah does not love those who transgress the limits. Then Allaah affirmed the allowance of these things with an even greater emphasis by His saying:

"And eat of the things that Allaah has provided for you, lawful and good, and have taqwaa (fear and obedience) of Allaah in Whom you believe." [Soorah al-Maa'idah 5:87-88].

Then he ordered them to have taqwaa (piety and obedience to Him). So this shows that the forbiddance of what Allaah has made lawful, in any form, is outside the bounds of taqwaa. Therefore, the Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said to those three men who came to the houses of the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, asking about his worship and then on being informed about it, considered their own worship to be very little, so they said: What a great difference there is between us and the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, whose previous and latter sins have been forgiven by Allaah. So one of them said: I will always Pray during the night. The other one said: I will always fast during the day and not break my fast. And the third of them said: I will keep away from women and never get married. Then Allaah's Messenger came to them and said: "Are you the people who said such and such? By Allaah! I am the one who is the most knowledgeable about Allaah amongst you, and the one who has the most taqwaa of Him. Yet I fast and break my fast, I pray and I sleep, and I marry women. So whosoever turns away from my Sunnah (guidance) is not from me." [14]

So if the Companions radiallaahu 'anhum left for us words of deep insight and which clearly enlighten the hearts, then men after them, who likewise attained the truth from this light, have also left for us words which are almost like the words of the Companions. And this is because they were those who very closely followed in the footsteps of the Companions - and the likes of their sayings have already preceded. However we add here a final example of their stance of truth:

Thus, a man came to Imaam Maalik (d.179H)- rahimahullaah - and said: O Abu 'Abdullaah! Where shall I enter the state of ihraam (the dress for one intending to do Pilgrimage)? So Imaam Maalik replied: "From Dhul-Hulayfah, where Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam entered the state of ihraam." The man then said: But I wish to enter the state of ihraam at the mosque by his grave. So Imaam Maalik said: "Do not do that, for I fear for you the fitnah (trial)." So the man said: What fitnah are you referring to, since it is only a few extra miles: So Imaam Maalik said: "And what fitnah can be greater than for you to think that you have attained some virtue, which Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam fell short of. Have you not heard the saying of Allaah:

"Let those beware who oppose the command of the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, lest they are afflicted with fitnah (trial), or lest they are afflicted with a painful punishment." [Soorah an-Noor 24:63]." [15]

http://www.islamcanada.com/articles/...isguidance.htm
Reply

Humbler_359
09-02-2009, 06:00 AM
You may remember LAST words of our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in his last speech to his followers, "I leave you two things, which if you follow you will never deviate, "The Qur’an and my Sunnah.


The best guidance is the best Sunnah (path or way) of Muhammad (PBUH).


Islam is to follow Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet. If someone rejects the Sunnah then it is like he has rejected Islam. One has to take care not to be mislead by some deviant groups into leading you astray. Quran and Sunnah are the basis of Islam. These two sources of Islam we follow on the understanding of the companions of the Prophet. Which means that we follow their interpretaion as they took it from the Prophet pbuh and not make our own interpretaions and judgements. Allah guides whom He wills.

Allaah says: “Your companion (Muhammad) is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he speak of his own desire. It is (only) the revelation with which he is inspired” (Surah An-Najm 53:2-4)

More information
Reply

Salahudeen
09-02-2009, 06:09 AM
^ it's evident from the hadith I posted that the companions didn't see congregational dhikr as acceptable because it wasn't in accordance with the sunnah.

I'm assuming the sister has been raised as a sufi all her life and has no concept of innovation, so this is all very confusing for because she's been led to believe that you can do whatever act of worship you want as long as it's good. even if the prophet (saw) or sahabba didn't do it, the fact that it's an innovation and added onto the religion by some 1 else doesn't seem to register. As long as you're doing something good.

I to was raised as a sufi and had no concept of innovation, I just believed what ever peer saab told me and followed him blindly, then 1 day I asked myself,

"can you really see Muhammed (saw) Umar, abu bakar, uthmaan such great men all sitting alone together in a dark room going "allah hu" and shaking their heads violently and dancing like they're possessed fools".

the answer was no I couldn't, then I began to learn sunni Islam and I learnt that this act is an innovation praticed by sufi's, I also learnt that it's haraam to go to Darbaar's and made dua to the dead saints and I also learnt that no sheikh can become 1 with Allah to the point he no longer needs to pray and fast no matter how high his emaan goes.

Then I left sufism and came to Qur'an and sunnah and all my relatives started going waaahabi bangyaa (he's become waaaahabi) lool

it didn't occur to them that I became a sunni because they classed themselves as sunni, sufism didn't even register as a sect with them, they referred to themselves as sunni even though they're very far from the sunnah, and following braveli/sufi teachings. The trouble is it's hard to educate someone who doesn't think for themselves and just believes everything their parent feeds them even if it's incorret.

My parents say this so it has to be correct, no chance of my parents being wrong, big peer saab so and so says this so it has to be correct.

It's hard you see because you won't find a sufi/brelvi who doesn't claim to be following Qur'an and sunnah, they all claim to be upon Qur'an sunnah. The trouble is how they interpret the Qur'an and sunnah. It's not interpred to how the sahabba and companions interpreted it, it's interpreted according to their sheikhs and own intellects.

So they follow Qur'an and sunnah but they follow it according to their own incorrect interpretations of hadith and Quranic ayah's as the sister demonstrated previously.

Just posted a hadith and used it to justify something incorrect, when the correct interpretation of that hadith is the speaker mentions the name of allah and sends salutations upon the prophet (saw) before beginning the gathering, but she interpreted it incorrectly maybe with her own intellect or according to the interpretation of some sufi sheikh Allah hu alam.
Reply

wayseer
09-02-2009, 06:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Humbler_359
If someone rejects the Sunnah then it is like he has rejected Islam.
Assalamu alaikum

I am only a learner as far as Islam is concerned so please forgive my ignorance if not my questions.

From what I have learned thus far it seems that for one to become a Muslim, that is someone of the Islamic faith, one simply needs to acknowledge Allah swt and that Muhammad pbuh is his prophet.

If such is the case then how is it that if one rejects the Sunnah, which is apparently contained in the hadith, one is rejecting Allah swt and his Prophet pbuh?

Peace

W
Reply

Salahudeen
09-02-2009, 06:38 AM
^ Because the sunnah tells us how to be Muslims, for example the Qur'an doesn't tell us how to pray, but when we go to the sunnah we learn how to pray.

The Qur'an tells us to cut the hands of a theif off, when we go to the sunnah we learn that a certain amount has to be stolen for the hands to be cut off, you don't get your hands chopped for stealing a pencil.

The Qur'an without the sunnah would be very hard to intepret, as you're aware a book can be interpreted in many different ways.

You could read a paragraph and come to your own conclusion about what that particular paragraph means and what it's refferring to and I could have my on opinion about what it means and we'd differ with regards to the meaning of it.

But when we go to the sunnah we learn the real meaning of it because we understand it how the Prophets companions understood it, If anyone knows the correct interpretation of a verse they do because their teacher was the prophet pbuh himself.

In todays world it's common, a person comes forward and says

"I read the qur'an and this verse means this"

but when you go to the sunnah and see how the companions understood that verse you know what is the correct understanding of that verse and the interpretation that the person made based upon his own intellect is incorrect.

Also the sunnah is important because we derive much of our islamic law from it like I mentioned the example of cutting the hands off.

Also the prophet himself is recorded to have said "If you want god to love you then folllow my sunnah (my way)"

Without the sunnah we wouldn't know how to pray and many other things, the two go hand in hand.

Muslims's are so passionate about following the prophets peace be upon him sunnaah (way) that we make our appearance to be like his e.g the long beard.
Reply

Sampharo
09-02-2009, 07:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
brother sempharo:

....

I actually meant this, thanks though
Who is the Imam that wrote this and which university or center he teaches in? Has any other Imam agreed with him? Source is necessary to investigate, this person is overturning authentication made by over 5 legendary classifiers. He seems to also fail in mentioning the basis of this. It could be a khawarej or other sectarian propagator answering with a simple lie to dodge an embarrassing question.

format_quote Originally Posted by AlexIslam
If all these sects are going to be in Hellfire except one, why are they permitted to visit the Sacred House of Allah (i.e. the Ka‘bah)? ?
...
so yeah please answer.. WHY are sunni's NOT a sect?
Alex, you need to go and read about this subject calmly and in detail, so as to learn it from A to Z well and proper, without trying to conclude your way to its understanding by asking a thousand argumentative questions, some of which are just plain easy to see. Why are sects permitted to go to Kaaba? Because they don't write "misguided sectarian" on their visa applications!!! Why sunnis are not a sect you were already told that this is the mainstream that follows the prophet precise revelation and were called like that by the prophet himself.

I now feel you're trying to make an argumentative theory based on your own thoughts when you hardly have any knowledge of the basics, and I really must ask you for your sake not to delve into that which you don't know with such arguments and theories.

format_quote Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
:hmm: Its kind of funny you claiming Sufis are "innovators" yet you yourself are talking absolute nonsense.

What is wrong with gathering and remembering Allah SWT? How can you say this is wrong?!!

Also Answer this, where does it say we are allowed to use the Microwave? Are we all innovators because we use the microwave?
Zhikr as you've been told by squiggle is to mention God at the beginning of a lecture, and to actually HAVE a lecture about God. Jumping up and down and saying "Allah" is not a worship that the prophet ordained, and the fiqh rule on worship is that it is Mawqoof, meaning ANY additions are forbidden. This is because they violate a simple paradox: "To say this worship is good and loved by God suggests one of two things: Either the prophet -pbuh- didn't know about it, or that he refused to deliver the message completely (which suggests you believe he is fallible in religion and that God did not say the truth in the Quran verse "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."
اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم و أتممت عليكم نعمتي و رضيت لكم الإسلام دينًا)

Matters of life and work and microwaving are not Mawqoofa and therefore we can microwave and ride cars all that we want.

Additionally, sufi's are not accused of being innovators for getting together and saying "Allah". They are innovators because they get together and say "Allah" while jumping up and down or swaying right and left in order to motivate an adrenaline rush and "get high" thinking that it is a mystical presence, and they do that following the teachings of dead people whom they were falsely told had miracles and "secret ways" given to him by divine inspiration and that this is HIS WAY of becoming one with God, later asking the "mureedeen" or followers to visit the Waleyy grave in order to cry and rub at the altar and ask him to concede in getting them money or children, rather than ask God directly. THAT is what is taken against sufi groups.

Wallahu Al-MostaAAan, this IS becoming controversial.
Reply

Salahudeen
09-02-2009, 07:25 AM
^ as my brother sampharo said x2
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-19-2013, 07:43 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-22-2012, 08:45 AM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-06-2006, 12:04 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!