The Fly Hadith

[CosmicPathos]

Many non-muslims claim that the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was not a prophet and that he performed no miracles. Some go to the extent of saying that there is no reality in God's existence and validity in the sayings of a Prophet. An atheistic scientist of the Muslim world named Abu bakr Ar-Razi (Rhazes in Latin), among many others throughout Islamic history, has written much as a mockery of Prophets.

However they are unaware that the Prophet(SAW) had knowledge about microbiology which was beyond his time and could only have come from the creator of microbiology, Allah(swt).

The Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu ‘aleihi was-sallam) said:

“If a housefly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for the one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure of the disease.” [Bukhari, vol. 4: 537].

Scientific Evidence:
In a simple experiment, Dr. Saleh as-Saleh (may Allah grant him Junnah), who was a biochemist and has many publications in prestigious science journals (I will post his publications at the bottom), coordinated a team of junior undergraduate students to show the presence of a 'cure' for disease-causing bacteria on a housefly: the existence antibiotic secreting bacteria. Pictures with detailed captions highlighting species of bacteria can be seen at http://understand-islam.net/site/ind...pper&Itemid=92

Credits:
Team Supervised By Dr. Jamaal Haamid

Students: 1-Sami Ibrahim Aj-Taili 2-’Aadil ‘Abdur Rahman Al-Misnid 3-Khalid Dha’aar Al-’Utaibi.

Course Co-Coordinator : Dr. Saleh As-Saleh

(Dept. Medical Microbiology-College of Science, Qassim University, Saudi Arabia)

My Notes:

A disbeliever might say that this information could have been widely believed as folk-medicine during Prophet's time and was not uniquely uttered by the Prophet (pbuh) only. Such a disbeliever might also claim that "if a truly false prophet (such as Musailmah who claimed prophethood during Muhammad's (pbuh) time) made such a claim and it was shown to be true, then is he really a false prophet?" My response is: Show us by historical evidence as recorded in the preserved writings if such information was commonly prevalent as folk medicine. Also show us where did any false Prophet, who did arise, utter such a statement. And even if he did, it could have been plagiarized from Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Such "if" questions have no basis grounded on historical evidence.

Even if, for a moment, we believe that this knowledge was commonly in use as folk-medicine, which is not true, then we can look at the frequency of such folk-medicine techniques which the Prophet (pbuh) suggested and actually turned out to be true. There is no remedy provided by the Prophet which is scientifically incorrect (there are some which still remain to be "proven" by science but as far as we know, people who test them, they dont get any negative health effects). On the other hand, a false prophet cherry-picking such remedies and cures from the contemporary folk-medicine purely on chance, conjecture and imagination, and plagiarizing from Greeks, persians and Indians would have chosen scientifically incorrect information as well since the process of cherry-picking is random more or less.

Moreover, in order to fine tune the experiment, it can be studied which wing carries the antibiotic secreting bacteria and which one carries the pathogens. This would establish the mechanism in which the house fly initially "sits" on the targeted food thus exposing only pathogenic bacteria and NOT the antibiotic-secreting bacteria.

Publications of Dr. Saleh as-Saleh as a scientist, in the true sense of the word:

1- el-Saleh SC, Solaro R. Troponin I enhances acidic pH-induced depression of Ca2+ binding to the regulatory sites in skeletal troponin C. J Biol Chem. 1988 Mar 5;263(7):3274-8.

2- el-Saleh SC, Solaro RJ. Calmidazolium, a calmodulin antagonist, stimulates calcium-troponin C and calcium-calmodulin-dependent activation of striated muscle myofilaments. J Biol Chem. 1987 Dec 15;262(35):17240-6.

3- el-Saleh SC, Potter JD, Solaro RJ. Alteration of actin-tropomyosin interaction in 2,4-pentanedione-treated rabbit skeletal myofibrils. J Biol Chem. 1986 Nov 5;261(31):14646-50.

4- el-Saleh SC, Warber KD, Potter JD. The role of tropomyosin-troponin in the regulation of skeletal muscle contraction. J Muscle Res Cell Motil. 1986 Oct;7(5):387-404. Review.

5- el-Saleh SC, Potter JD. Calcium-insensitive binding of heavy meromyosin to regulated actin at physiological ionic strength. J Biol Chem. 1985 Nov 25;260(27):14775-9.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu ‘aleihi was-sallam) said:

“If a housefly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for the one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure of the disease.” [Bukhari, vol. 4: 537].

Does anyone know which wing carries the disease and which carries the cure? I couldn't find anything about this in the article. In fact the article doesn't mention wings at all.

Peace

[CosmicPathos]

Greetings,



Does anyone know which wing carries the disease and which carries the cure? I couldn't find anything about this in the article. In fact the article doesn't mention wings at all.

Peace

I clarified that exactly in the last paragraph of "my notes." You need to develop more comprehension skills. Even though it has not been shown that one wing carries antibiotic-secreting bacteria and other carries pathogenic bacteria, the fact remains that by dipping the whole fly, as the Prophet pbuh said, the harmful effects of hte pathogens can be averted. At least, as of now, half of the statement of Prophet pbuh is true.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I clarified that exactly in the last paragraph of "my notes." You need to develop more comprehension skills.

I teach English for a living. Trust me, my comprehension skills are fine.

Let's take a look at what you wrote:

Moreover, in order to fine tune the experiment, it can be studied which wing carries the antibiotic secreting bacteria and which one carries the pathogens. This would establish the mechanism in which the house fly initially "sits" on the targeted food thus exposing only pathogenic bacteria and NOT the antibiotic-secreting bacteria.

Where exactly in that paragraph do you clarify which wing carries the pathogens and which carries the antibiotic?

Even though it has not been shown that one wing carries antibiotic-secreting bacteria and other carries pathogenic bacteria, the fact remains that by dipping the whole fly, as the Prophet pbuh said, the harmful effects of hte pathogens can be averted. At least, as of now, half of the statement of Prophet pbuh is true.

Suppose a fly sits on some rotten flesh, then flies into my drink. Are you telling me that dipping the whole fly into the drink will avert any harmful consequences of me ingesting part of that rotten flesh?

Peace

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[JaffaCake]

So where's the peer reviewed publication of this discovery?

3 photos of unknown origin and a colourfully printed hadith do not make a scientific paper.

In addition, if they'd gone this far to try prove the hadith correct, is it not trivial to test each wing independently?

[CosmicPathos]

So where's the peer reviewed publication of this discovery?

3 photos of unknown origin and a colourfully printed hadith do not make a scientific paper.

In addition, if they'd gone this far to try prove the hadith correct, is it not trivial to test each wing independently?

I think it is a pretty simple experiment that does not need a publication. If you cannot believe the data is original (you can independently test it, you just need petri dishes, sterilized water and controlled conditions), then I am sorry to say that you are conditioned to believe that scientific publications in prestigious journals are your holy scriptures, and this at best is a delusional belief.

Why they did not continue to do further, even articles in Nature end up with saying "more research will provide insight into the mechanism." I, then, ask the same question that why not publish the paper after doing the ****ed "more research." LOL. LUNATICS.

[CosmicPathos]

Greetings,


I teach English for a living. Trust me, my comprehension skills are fine.

Let's take a look at what you wrote:



Where exactly in that paragraph do you clarify which wing carries the pathogens and which carries the antibiotic?



Suppose a fly sits on some rotten flesh, then flies into my drink. Are you telling me that dipping the whole fly into the drink will avert any harmful consequences of me ingesting part of that rotten flesh?

Peace

The fact that you teach English does not mean that you foolproof and have absolutely awesome comprehension skills. I could have better skills than you despite being an English teacher. Or anyone else could. Your above reply just goes to show that.

I clarified in the last paragraph of "my notes" that more experiments can be done to study "which wing carries the antibiotic secreting bacteria and which one carries the pathogens." I already acknowledged that a disbeliever like you would ask such a question, its a valid one, and I already gave a response to that.

Where does it say that you do not THROW the fly after dipping? Who told you to eat its flesh? LOL, you are reading things from delusions? Where does eating flesh of a fly came from?

[CosmicPathos]

So where's the peer reviewed publication of this discovery?

3 photos of unknown origin and a colourfully printed hadith do not make a scientific paper.

In addition, if they'd gone this far to try prove the hadith correct, is it not trivial to test each wing independently?

peer-review, give me the funding to carry it out on a professional scale with more sophistication, ill send it for peer-review and publication. Very might could probably discover a new sort of antibiotic. Just, dont force me to believe in your scriptures and gods.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The fact that you teach English does not mean that you foolproof and have absolutely awesome comprehension skills. I could have better skills than you despite being an English teacher.

What - you're an English teacher too? What a coincidence. :p

I think the problem here is that your claim is unclear. What kind of diseases are you talking about - diseases that affect flies or that affect humans? How exactly does the hadith demonstrate that the Prophet (pbuh) had knowledge of microbiology? etc. etc.

I clarified in the last paragraph of "my notes" that more experiments can be done to study "which wing carries the antibiotic secreting bacteria and which one carries the pathogens." I already acknowledged that a disbeliever like you would ask such a question, its a valid one, and I already gave a response to that.

That's why I was asking if anybody knew which wing carried the disease and which carried the cure, since you hadn't mentioned it, and nor had the article you gave the link for.

Where does it say that you do not THROW the fly after dipping? Who told you to eat its flesh? LOL, you are reading things from delusions? Where does eating flesh of a fly came from?

Read it again. I'm not talking about eating the flesh of the fly. I'm talking about one of the most common methods for flies transmitting disease to humans. Ask me again later if you still don't understand the question.

Peace

[JaffaCake]

Why they did not continue to do further, even articles in Nature end up with saying "more research will provide insight into the mechanism." I, then, ask the same question that why not publish the paper after doing the ****ed "more research."

Instead of asking another question why not just try answer the one I asked? We'd be more likely to make some progress regarding the topic at hand.

As you said yourself, it's a relatively simple experiment. It would have taken very little effort to see it through to the most obvious endpoint, i.e. testing each wing. Why did Dr. Saleh as-Saleh stop short of doing that when he had the opportunity to prove the Hadith in question to be 100% accurate?

He could publish the data and conclusions, get them peer-reviewed, and bob's your uncle, the best minds in science today all attest to the validity of the work and, by extension, the miraculous nature of the Prophet's word.

Instead we have a pitiful pdf devoid of any scientific content on an Islamic website.
Can you see something wrong with this scenario?

[CosmicPathos]

Instead of asking another question why not just try answer the one I asked? We'd be more likely to make some progress regarding the topic at hand.

As you said yourself, it's a relatively simple experiment. It would have taken very little effort to see it through to the most obvious endpoint, i.e. testing each wing. Why did Dr. Saleh as-Saleh stop short of doing that when he had the opportunity to prove the Hadith in question to be 100% accurate?

He could publish the data and conclusions, get them peer-reviewed, and bob's your uncle, the best minds in science today all attest to the validity of the work and, by extension, the miraculous nature of the Prophet's word.

Instead we have a pitiful pdf devoid of any scientific content on an Islamic website.
Can you see something wrong with this scenario?

Why did he stop? I do not know. Why do publishers who publish in Nature stop. I do not know. maybe outside the scope of their current goals.

Best minds? Who are the best minds? What determines a "best mind?" LOL. Things are always relative in the real-world and so are "minds."

The "pitiful .pdf" is actually quite the opposite. It uses controlled conditions with a negative control as well to see what is going on. It even goes on to deduce the species of the bacteria present.

[Uthman]

Please refrain from insulting other members. Forum rule #9:

Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting somebody).

[CosmicPathos]

Anyways, back to the topic. Mr Cake, where are your publications? I want to read them, since you are claiming to be a science-god.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

LOL. I cannot help but to laugh at your ignorance. The pathogenic bacteria shown to be found on the fly are the ones that can cause disease in humans. If you had a slightest bit of knowledge of microbiology, you would know that diptheroids or staphylococcus can cause diseases in humans.

In any case, maybe now you can answer my question:

Suppose a fly sits on some rotten flesh, then flies into my drink. Are you telling me that dipping the whole fly into the drink will avert any harmful consequences of me ingesting part of that rotten flesh?

I mentioned it in the very first post that we do not know it AS OF YET, just like any good scientist would say.

So you're reducing your claim - no problem.

Peace

[CosmicPathos]

Salam,

This is nothing but a fabrication. Prophet would not say such a thing. Islam gives importance for higenic. No matter what the scientific evidence you bring just know that fly can create an outbreak of typhoid, cholera and other dreadful diseases. Just one simple question. Would those who profess to believe in this be willing to carry out its instructions? Is this an instruction from the prophet or just a suggestion? If someone does not do it could he/she be accused of violating an order of the prophet? please clarify.

wassalam

What fly are you talking about? Those instructions are purely for a house fly. Allah (swt) has put a solution in the fly itself.

Calling a saheeh hadith a fabrication is an action of kufr. Are you calling it a fabricated hadeeth just because it does not fit with your whims, desires, definitions of hygiene and level of scientific education? This means you have a stronger belief in your logic than your belief in God.

[Uthman]

I agree - it cannot be a fabrication. Saheeh Al-Bukhaari is unanimously considered to be the most authentic book after the Qur'an.

[- IqRa -]

It is in Bukhari, how can it be a fabrication?!

[Uthman]

Regarding the authenticity of Bukhaari's ahadeeth: http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...eeh-sound.html

[- IqRa -]

@Wa7abiScientist....By the way, you haven't still answered me whether you will carry out the instruction contained in the hadith? It should be honest answer. I await your answer.

I actually did.

I found a house fly in one of my juices in a glass, and I saw that it was indeed in the drink on it's left side wing. I remembered this hadith of RasoolAllaah Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam, and I dipped all the fly in, took it out and drank the juice. Alhamdulillaah.

[- IqRa -]

^ Because we have faith. It's like when Allaah tells us not to eat Pork. Why? Because we have faith there is a reasoning behind it.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

^ Because we have faith. It's like when Allaah tells us not to eat Pork. Why? Because we have faith there is a reasoning behind it.

OK - let's turn it on its head: suppose you knew for a fact that the fly was carrying some resistant bacteria like MRSA. Would you still dip it in your drink, trusting that your faith would protect you from harm?

Peace

[- IqRa -]

Allaah will not tell us anything that will harm us. If it was harmful, then we would not have been instructed to do it. That said, many things have found to be harmful, which Islam prohibits.

[M..x]

Rather than criticizing the Muslims for being so insulting, why not look at the insults that gibson has hurled at the Prophet? I am insulting to those who insult me or my beliefs.

@ Gibson? What do you mean by MSRA? (Mythical Science-god of Richward-dawkins' Anterior)? Are you even aware that when an academician introduces acronyms for the first time, he should first completely write them out in full and then use the acronym afterwards? Way to go for your critical reasoning skills.

Why are you attacking me for bro? As i clearly said, it was a note to myself before anyone else. I dont want to get involved in this lil blame game about whu is insulting whu, its not why I come onto this forum. & There is a way of duin dawah, 'hurling' comments at Gibson about his ability as a teacher is not going to do anyone any good. Even through the example of tha Prophet [PBUH] when he faced people whu rejected tha Message, did you see eny hostility from tha Prophet's [PBUH] side? I dont rekall him duin that, and this was tha best of man & truly tha best example. I dont wish to get in a lenghty argument with you brother over this. Tha last thing we need is Muslims bickering amongst each other. Forgive me for any offence I have caused. I just think, especially dealing with non-Muslims, we need to maintain a certain standard of conduct and reasoning, treating others with respect. Afterall you give it to get it back. My personal thoughts. Wa'Allahu Alim.

['Abd al-Baari]

:sl:

Thread will be reopened after Ramadhaan.

[CosmicPathos]

Greetings,


OK - let's turn it on its head: suppose you knew for a fact that the fly was carrying some resistant bacteria like MRSA. Would you still dip it in your drink, trusting that your faith would protect you from harm?

Peace

If we are sure that a fly carries MRSA and not its anti-dote on the other wing, it would be considered suicide from Islamic perspective to put yourself in jeopardy. It would be good to see if such flies actually carry an antibiotic to those bacteria.

In other cases when nothing is known regarding what the fly carries, the hadith applies.

[Danah]

:sl:

Very good topic, jazakiAllah khair for sharing.

As for those who were trying to prove the authentication of sahih Bukhari for optimist please don't bother yourself, if I am not mistaken he is the same optimist in another board who don't recognize the sunnah at all and claiming to believe in what came in Quran only!

So save your breath.