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AlexJ90
09-10-2009, 01:14 AM
I have a christian friend who told me that Jesus (phuh) said that im the last prophet...dont believe in any after me... Also.. that jesus said the devil can disguise himself as an angel...and guide people on the wrong path..

I told him 100% this wasnt the case with Muhammad (phuh) as no angel can give out such a message, (if the angle was disguised as a devil).

Quran quotations would be helpful in this discussion..

Thanks brothers
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Rabi Mansur
09-10-2009, 03:04 AM
2 Corinthians 11:13-14
For such are false Apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
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Rabi Mansur
09-10-2009, 03:08 AM
I am not aware of any scripture where Jesus said explicitly that he was the last prophet or that he said do not believe any after me.
Have your friend cite the scripture. He can't.
Reply

جوري
09-10-2009, 03:38 AM
You should question your friend on why he believes that line applies to Mohammed (P) but not the self-proclaimed apostle Saul/Paul?..

Also the Jews contend the same thing, that Zacharia is the last prophet and that there are no other scriptures past their book, which ironically amongst themselves they are also divided on, for instance the Karaites are a Jewish sect that recognizes only the Hebrew Scriptures as the source of divinely inspired legislation and denies the authority of the postbiblical tradition of the Talmud..

Everyone is free to believe what they want.. for the Christians especially I am always astounded how they quote their scriptures and fail to see what is right before their eyes.. a charlatan who abrogated all the commandments of their alleged God!

all the best

:w:
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YusufNoor
09-10-2009, 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by AlexIslam
I have a christian friend who told me that Jesus (phuh) said that im the last prophet...dont believe in any after me... Also.. that jesus said the devil can disguise himself as an angel...and guide people on the wrong path..

I told him 100% this wasnt the case with Muhammad (phuh) as no angel can give out such a message, (if the angle was disguised as a devil).

Quran quotations would be helpful in this discussion..

Thanks brothers
:sl:

well, step 1: ask your friend if he believes that is really true

step 2 ask him if he thinks that the Bible of his, reflects this

step 3: show him this from Acts 11:

22Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

23Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.

24For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

25Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:

26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

27And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.

28And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

29Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:

30Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
surely there MUST be something wrong with this "Bible" if it claims that there ARE, in fact, Prophets after Jesus!

step 4: ask him to clarify, are there Prophets after Jesus or not! and if not, then the Bible MUST be faulty!

BUT if the Bible IS faulty, then how does he REALLY know if there are Prophets after Jesus or not?

let us know how long it takes him to decide!

:wa:
Reply

Ramadhan
09-10-2009, 05:11 AM
There are just too many contradictions in the bible
Reply

glo
09-10-2009, 06:08 AM
Should this thread be moved to the Comparative Religions section, to be picked up after Ramadan?
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-22-2009, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by AlexIslam
I have a christian friend who told me that Jesus (phuh) said that im the last prophet...dont believe in any after me... Also.. that jesus said the devil can disguise himself as an angel...and guide people on the wrong path..

I told him 100% this wasnt the case with Muhammad (phuh) as no angel can give out such a message, (if the angle was disguised as a devil).

Quran quotations would be helpful in this discussion..

Thanks brothers
Did Jesus say these things?
Simple answer, "No." The closest that I can come to Jesus saying anything similar to this is "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17, NIV). Other translations say "complete" rather than "fulfill". This might be understood by some to mean that Jesus claims to be the last prophet, but that is an interpretation, not Jesus' actual words.

Jesus also does warn of false prophets who will come after him. "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible" (Mark 13:22, NIV). But the context of this is that we should not follow after false Christs in the last days. It is not to say that God would not send any more prophets. In fact, that is contrary to the teaching of the New Testament church which believed that the gift of prophey was one of the gifts that the Holy Spirit gave to the Church for the equipping of the saints and the building up of the body of Christ, which is the Church. Many Christians would hold that prophets still exist today.
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Danah
09-23-2009, 01:37 PM
^ prophet? Do Christians believe that Jesus is a prophet or god? or both?

another thing, if the verse meant that Jesus Peace Be Upon Him is the last prophet by the word "fulfill" or "complete" like some other may understand, then what did Jesus mean in John 16:
12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
It seems that he was clearly referring to only one in the word "he", not "them" which means that he was telling of the coming of one person, right?
Reply

mkh4JC
09-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Danah
^ prophet? Do Christians believe that Jesus is a prophet or god? or both?

another thing, if the verse meant that Jesus Peace Be Upon Him is the last prophet by the word "fulfill" or "complete" like some other may understand, then what did Jesus mean in John 16:


It seems that he was clearly referring to only one in the word "he", not "them" which means that he was telling of the coming of one person, right?
Well, yes he was referring to a Person, but that's because the Holy Ghost ie the Comforter is the Third Person of the Godhead. Here's the relevant passages:

'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.' St. John 14: 16-17

'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsover I have said unto you.' St. John 14: 26.

'Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement:

Of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.' St. John 16: 7-15.
Reply

Danah
09-23-2009, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Fedos
Well, yes he was referring to a Person, but that's because the Holy Ghost ie the Comforter is the Third Person of the Godhead. Here's the relevant passages:

'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.' St. John 14: 16-17

'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsover I have said unto you.' St. John 14: 26.

'Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement:

Of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.' St. John 16: 7-15.
Hi,

Thanks for your reply...

So was the "holy spirit" the "person" that he referred to? What is the exact nature of the holy spirit anyways?
why he did not refer to it as "it" instead of "he"?


Also, I need a clarification about this verse:
'Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Isn't the Holy Spirit already there during and before the ministry of Jesus from the first day of creation? This is what I read in the book of Genesis; correct me if I am wrong please. How he tells that it will come when its already there?
Reply

جوري
09-23-2009, 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

well, step 1: ask your friend if he believes that is really true

step 2 ask him if he thinks that the Bible of his, reflects this

step 3: show him this from Acts 11:



surely there MUST be something wrong with this "Bible" if it claims that there ARE, in fact, Prophets after Jesus!

step 4: ask him to clarify, are there Prophets after Jesus or not! and if not, then the Bible MUST be faulty!

BUT if the Bible IS faulty, then how does he REALLY know if there are Prophets after Jesus or not?

let us know how long it takes him to decide!

:wa:
Amazing stuff sob7an Allah.. how do they reconcile this with what they actually preach without coming across as complete hypocrites :hmm:

:w:
Reply

mkh4JC
09-24-2009, 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by Danah
Hi,

Thanks for your reply...

So was the "holy spirit" the "person" that he referred to? What is the exact nature of the holy spirit anyways?
why he did not refer to it as "it" instead of "he"?
Well because he is a person and not an it. Just like God the Father and God the Son are persons. The God of the Bible is described as a living, personal God. Maybe this will help.

The living God":
The subject of God is quite a vast one, but the main point here is that He is LIVING. There are feelings, and thoughts, and decisions, and actions, and initiatives, and responses, and values, and commitments... all the aspects of personal existence. He is not a force or an attitude or a "perspective on the universe". We walk around our lives 'face to face' with this One-- even if we ignore Him.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/christn.html

Originally Posted by Danah
Also, I need a clarification about this verse:


Isn't the Holy Spirit already there during and before the ministry of Jesus from the first day of creation? This is what I read in the book of Genesis; correct me if I am wrong please. How he tells that it will come when its already there?
Well yes, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent (existing everywhere), just like the Father and the Son are omnipresent. But when you accept Jesus as your savior there comes a time when you become indwelled with the Holy Spirit, with his presence. There were a few exceptions, like John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mothers womb, but the Holy Spirit did not indwell within the spirits of human beings until after Christ ascended to heaven.
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Ramadhan
09-24-2009, 05:10 AM
Frankly, I haven't met two christians who could give a clear, exact same definition of God.
Reply

جوري
09-24-2009, 05:24 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Frankly, I haven't met two christians who could give a clear, exact same definition of God is.
I have met christians who have addressed God as a she, which I found the most amusing of all.. with every passing day I find Christianity more absurd than the day before.. I think most of them (those who are forth coming) believe in God theoretically but don't subscribe to complicated cock-and-bull stories.. If the pope gets it, then good for him.
The concept of religion and God should be understood by the most complex and the simplest mind alike, you won't need a group of scholars explaining the 'nature of God' to folks or a life time trying to reconcile what they have in writing with the reality of things and another life time explaining why they let go of parts more plausible while adhering to parts absurd ...

:w:
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Khaldun
09-24-2009, 06:03 AM
:sl:

Since the brother asked for qoutations from the Qur'aan here they are:

In the chapter of the Family of Imraan

[3.48] And He [Allah] will teach him [Jesus] the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat [Torah] and the Injeel [Bible].
[3.49] And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I create for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
[3.50] And a verifier of that which is before me of the Torah and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
[3.51] Surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.
In the chapter of Mary

[19.30] He [Jesus] said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;
[19.31] And He [Allah] has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;
[19.32] And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;
[19.33] And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.
[19.34] Such is Isa [Jesus], son of Marium [Mary]; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.
[19.35] It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a son, glory to be Him!; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.
[19.36] And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.
In Chapter Zukhruf

[43.63] And when Isa [Jesus] came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me:
[43.64] Surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path:
Glorified be Allah! The Truth is echoed throughout the Qur'aan and the Bible and the Torah.

And perhaps the most excplicit verse of them all

In the Chapter Saff

And when Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary] said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.
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Danah
09-25-2009, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by Fedos
Well because he is a person and not an it. Just like God the Father and God the Son are persons. The God of the Bible is described as a living, personal God. Maybe this will help.



http://www.christian-thinktank.com/christn.html



Well yes, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent (existing everywhere), just like the Father and the Son are omnipresent. But when you accept Jesus as your savior there comes a time when you become indwelled with the Holy Spirit, with his presence. There were a few exceptions, like John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mothers womb, but the Holy Spirit did not indwell within the spirits of human beings until after Christ ascended to heaven.
immm :hmm: can you explain more plz?
how can the holy spirit be not there when its there with some people but not with others? The promise didn't include any exceptions though. In addition to that I think that the holy spirit was there from the early beginning of the creation, with the prophets of the old testament and also when Jesus was baptized (Mathew 3:16), so?
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mkh4JC
09-26-2009, 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by Danah
immm :hmm: can you explain more plz?
how can the holy spirit be not there when its there with some people but not with others? The promise didn't include any exceptions though. In addition to that I think that the holy spirit was there from the early beginning of the creation, with the prophets of the old testament and also when Jesus was baptized (Mathew 3:16), so?
Well, in John the Baptist's case, he was separated by God, for a specific task (even from his mother's womb). He was to prepare the way for the Messiah, Jesus Christ. So that's why he had the Holy Spirit while others didn't, because he was appointed a special task.

And in the book of Genesis we do find the Holy Spirit involved in the creation, as it says that 'the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.' But the Holy Spirit did not indwell within the spirits of the Old Testament saints, because Christ hadn't died and rose yet. There are some who believe that in certain instances the Holy Spirit would come upon individuals at certain times (like, say, when Elijah outran the chariot in Kings), but he didn't indwell within them. And I personally have felt the Spirit of God a few times when I was a child and still in my sins playing the drums at my old church, but I didn't know what it was or what was happening until after I accepted Christ as my savior.
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Ramadhan
09-26-2009, 03:33 AM
Is this all explained in the bible or are we all free to make our version?
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mkh4JC
09-26-2009, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Is this all explained in the bible or are we all free to make our version?
Well, here is where it says the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters:

'And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.' Genesis 1: 2.

And here is where it is stated that John the Baptist would be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb:

'But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.' Luke 1: 13-15.

And here are the scriptures describing Pentacost, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Apostles:

'And when the day of Pentacost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.' Acts 1: 1-3

And I don't have a scripture that explains that the Holy Spirit came upon the Old Testament saints, but I was just basing that supposition on the fact that the Holy Spirit is the one who works through believers.
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Danah
09-26-2009, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Fedos
Well, in John the Baptist's case, he was separated by God, for a specific task (even from his mother's womb). He was to prepare the way for the Messiah, Jesus Christ. So that's why he had the Holy Spirit while others didn't, because he was appointed a special task.

And in the book of Genesis we do find the Holy Spirit involved in the creation, as it says that 'the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.' But the Holy Spirit did not indwell within the spirits of the Old Testament saints, because Christ hadn't died and rose yet
The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament

Some Christians seem to think that the Holy Spirit was a stranger to the Old Testament and to the Old Testament saint. In reality, the Spirit of God is much more quickly evident than the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God. A look at a concordance will quickly indicate this. The Holy Spirit first occurs in the second verse of the Bible, Genesis 1:2, actively involved in the creation of the earth. Shortly thereafter in Genesis 6, the Holy Spirit is said to be involved with creation and specifically with men, in striving with them due to their sin. In the closing books of the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit is frequently mentioned, that last clear reference being found in Malachi 2:15.
Let us consider a number of the passages in which the Holy Spirit is mentioned. Let us look to the ways in which the Spirit worked in the days of old, and let us (later on) compare these with the work of the Spirit in the New Testament times, as well as in our own. I believe we will see a great deal of continuity.4


source: bible.org-Holy Spirit in the Old Testament

*read the rest of the page and you will find it with all prophets of the old testament*



. There are some who believe that in certain instances the Holy Spirit would come upon individuals at certain times (like, say, when Elijah outran the chariot in Kings), but he didn't indwell within them. And I personally have felt the Spirit of God a few times when I was a child and still in my sins playing the drums at my old church, but I didn't know what it was or what was happening until after I accepted Christ as my savior.
Its there at the end! whether it indwell with them or not, it came that time


Originally Posted by Fedos
And I don't have a scripture that explains that the Holy Spirit came upon the Old Testament saints, but I was just basing that supposition on the fact that the Holy Spirit is the one who works through believers.
Refer back to my first quote in this post
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mkh4JC
09-26-2009, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Danah
The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament

Some Christians seem to think that the Holy Spirit was a stranger to the Old Testament and to the Old Testament saint. In reality, the Spirit of God is much more quickly evident than the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God. A look at a concordance will quickly indicate this. The Holy Spirit first occurs in the second verse of the Bible, Genesis 1:2, actively involved in the creation of the earth. Shortly thereafter in Genesis 6, the Holy Spirit is said to be involved with creation and specifically with men, in striving with them due to their sin. In the closing books of the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit is frequently mentioned, that last clear reference being found in Malachi 2:15.
Let us consider a number of the passages in which the Holy Spirit is mentioned. Let us look to the ways in which the Spirit worked in the days of old, and let us (later on) compare these with the work of the Spirit in the New Testament times, as well as in our own. I believe we will see a great deal of continuity.4


source: bible.org-Holy Spirit in the Old Testament

*read the rest of the page and you will find it with all prophets of the old testament*



Its there at the end! whether it indwell with them or not, it came that time




Refer back to my first quote in this post
Well, there is a difference in the Holy Spirit just 'coming upon' an Old Testament saint and indwelling within New Testament saints. John the Baptist and a few others were the exception to the norm.

But here's a quote from the link you gave me:

It is noteworthy, I believe, to see that the Spirit’s coming upon men was the sovereign choice of God, rather than God’s response to the initiative of men. Generally speaking, men did not expect the Spirit of God to come upon them, nor did they do anything to prompt it. It happened. God took the initiative, and men responded accordingly. There is clearly no “pattern” for those who would wish to find some method or formula for obtaining the Spirit’s power. Men did not dispose of God or of His Spirit; rather God disposed of men, using His Spirit to do so.
He doesn't say that the Holy Spirit 'indwelled' within them. That couldn't happen until Christ's ministry. When you accept Christ and then become indwelled with the Holy Spirit then you are on a journey to be more and more like Christ, to be--as the Bible states--'conformed to the image of the Son.' On a journey towards perfection. This wasn't the case with the Old Testament saints.
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جوري
09-26-2009, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Is this all explained in the bible or are we all free to make our version?
You are free to make your own version.. I believe that is what Martin Luther did when he turned christ into thrice the adulterer (astghfor Allah il3atheem) although I think it less outrageous than making him into God!

:w:
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Sojourn
09-27-2009, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by AlexIslam
I have a christian friend who told me that Jesus (phuh) said that im the last prophet...dont believe in any after me...
Peace Alex,

From a Christian perspective Jesus is the Divine Word of God, and when spoken there is nothing left to be said, so the coming of Christ was the end to any new revelation. Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church, that His Church will never be defeated, and that He will remain with His followers till the end of time. So like Muslims, we Christians believe our faith is preserved, protected, and the final message.

Just on a historical note, the first person to claim to be a prophet after Jesus was a man by the name of Montan in the 2nd Century. He claimed to bring a new testament that supersedes the Bible, a claim similar to Muhammad's. His movement was unanimously resisted against by the early Christians, and it can be said that since then any claim to a new revelation has been rejected.


Hope this helps
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Rasema
09-27-2009, 10:52 PM
He claimed to bring a new testament that supersedes the Bible, a claim similar to Muhammad's.

What do you mean to bring a new testament that suplersedes the Bible. What do you mean about the new testament?

Muhammad,sallallahu alaihi wa salam, didn't claim that he braught a new testament. The Qur'an is very different to the new testament especially to the King James version.
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Sojourn
09-27-2009, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Rasema
What do you mean to bring a new testament that suplersedes the Bible.
That the message of Montan abrogated what's before it, and that everyone must accept the message Montan revealed.
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Danah
09-27-2009, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Fedos
Well, there is a difference in the Holy Spirit just 'coming upon' an Old Testament saint and indwelling within New Testament saints. John the Baptist and a few others were the exception to the norm.

But here's a quote from the link you gave me:



He doesn't say that the Holy Spirit 'indwelled' within them. That couldn't happen until Christ's ministry. When you accept Christ and then become indwelled with the Holy Spirit then you are on a journey to be more and more like Christ, to be--as the Bible states--'conformed to the image of the Son.' On a journey towards perfection. This wasn't the case with the Old Testament saints.
I got your point in the difference between indwelled and came upon. I dont really see any "essential" difference between the two words in the matter of the presence whether the Spirit came upon or indwelled within someone, its there in both cases!! the Spirit was there at the beginning of the creation, then "influencing" the prophets of the old testament to accomplish their work "as the Christianity stated" whether it indwelled within them or just came upon them. Its there in any case since its influence is there.

I see it exactly as if I come to my friend house and just stand by the door there without entering the home, or enter the home, sitting with her, eating....etc
In both case I will be considered as being there in that neighborhood

I hope you got my point
Thanks for your time answering my questions

greeting
Reply

جوري
09-27-2009, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
That the message of Montan abrogated what's before it, and that everyone must accept the message Montan revealed.
The message of KwaZulu-Natal abrogated all that is before it, and that everyone must accept the message that KwaZulu-Natal revealed!


all the best
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-30-2009, 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by Danah
immm :hmm: can you explain more plz?
how can the holy spirit be not there when its there with some people but not with others? The promise didn't include any exceptions though. In addition to that I think that the holy spirit was there from the early beginning of the creation, with the prophets of the old testament and also when Jesus was baptized (Mathew 3:16), so?
I probably wouldn't use Fedos illustration of the differences between "indwelled" and "came upon." What I would point to is that the Holy Spirit was present in a more transcendent sense in Genesis and remained outside of rather than indwelling or coming upon people like He would do after Jesus's time on earth. I believe that this coming upon people by the Holy Spirit is what happened at Pentecost (described in Acts 2) and that from that time on the Holy Spirit has had not just a transcendent presence, but also been imminently present in the lives of those who specifically belong to Jesus Christ. It matters not to me whether you call it "coming upon", "indwelling", "infilling", or some other such term, it is a declaration that God is not longer outside of us, but that just as Adam was created to commune with God only to have that relationship was broken in the fall, that now in Christ we have once again been reconciled to God and so that opportunity for genuine communion with God is restored for those who are in Christ. This is experienced through the presence of God present in our lives through the intermediary presence of his Holy Spirit abiding within us in a way that no one except Jesus had experienced since Adam. It was then first experienced by the Apostles at Pentecost and subsequently is available to all who believe and do not resist the Holy Spirit's presence in their lives.
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Al Ansari
10-19-2009, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by rabimansur
2 Corinthians 11:13-14
For such are false Apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Look at the contradicting accounts of Paul's vision on the road to Damascus. He undid everything 'Isa ibn Maryam (as) taught. He reinterpreted 'Isa's message. Could not 'Isa give a clear understanding of Allaah's law to the people so that the people will have no discourse?
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Sojourn
10-19-2009, 04:25 AM
Peace Al Ansari,

Originally Posted by Al Ansari
Look at the contradicting accounts of Paul's vision on the road to Damascus.
What are the contradicting accounts?

He undid everything 'Isa ibn Maryam (as) taught. He reinterpreted 'Isa's message.
It's sad to see St Paul slandered in such a way, especially since he endured so many hardships, and ultimately gave up his life for the Gospel of Christ. St Paul simply passed on what he himself received, as he himself admits:

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
1 Corinthians 15:3-5

That is the essence of Christ's message, anyone who departs from it is the true "reinterpreter" and "undoer" of Jesus' teaching.

Could not 'Isa give a clear understanding of Allaah's law to the people so that the people will have no discourse?
Not sure what you mean here, are you attributing some failure on Jesus' part?
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mkh4JC
10-19-2009, 05:37 AM
On the topic of the thread, here is what Jesus said in St. John:

'Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.' St John 10: 7-13.
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Grace Seeker
10-20-2009, 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Peace Al Ansari,



What are the contradicting accounts?



It's sad to see St Paul slandered in such a way, especially since he endured so many hardships, and ultimately gave up his life for the Gospel of Christ. St Paul simply passed on what he himself received, as he himself admits:

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
1 Corinthians 15:3-5

That is the essence of Christ's message, anyone who departs from it is the true "reinterpreter" and "undoer" of Jesus' teaching.
You are so right about the bad rap that Paul gets. People accuse him of not being "Jewish" enough. Hilarious given his personal background as a pharisee and the strong emphasis he makes in places like Romans that the gospel is "the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile" (Romans 1:16).
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