Question about the army.

[Ahmed Khan]

:sl:
Hello everyone, I am Ahmed.
I was wondering... Im in high school and I am considering joining the CANADIAN FORCES (sry im new to this fourm so i dont know if its mostly americans or something :S) so i was wondering how joining the forces would affect my religion, will it be haram? I'm not sure what i might be doing probally not front line infantry, but if I do will it be haram please respond and thank u in advance.

[Ahmed Khan]

No one knows the answer!??!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!

[convert]

By doing so, you would become a kafir.

[markislam]

if you are a citizen of that country then what is wrong in serving for that country ? the other option would be to disown citizenship and move back to the home country.

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['Abd-al Latif]

Read this:

Praise be to Allaah.

If you are sent to wage war against the Muslims, then it is not permissible for you to take part at all. Helping the disbelievers against the Muslims is a form of major kufr which puts one beyond the pale of Islam. Allaah says concerning one who supports the mushrikeen (polythiests) (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’, i.e., friends), then surely, he is one of them”[al-Maa’idah 5:51]

With regard to how you may get out of this situation, and what excuse you can give to get out of this dilemma if it happens, we ask Allaah to help you, and we suggest that you consult some Muslims who have relevant knowledge or experience.

We want to emphasize to you the necessity of finding other employment and of leaving service in the army of the disbelievers, because that implies helping them, strengthening them and increasing the numbers of their fighters and supporters – unless your work can bring some benefits to the Muslims, such as giving information and secrets of the kaafirs to the Muslims so as to help the Muslims, or if your work is purely da’wah (i.e. call to Islam), such as giving khutbahs and leading prayers for the Muslims in the disbelievers army whilst also advising them to avoid any work that will strengthen the disbelievers. We ask Allaah to keep you safe from temptation and to give you a good end in this world and in the Hereafter.

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/14004

[Rabi Mansur]

How would he be fighting the Muslims? I don't see that at all. He might be fighting in a country torn apart and some of the enemy may be misguided muslims. But those he would be fighting for would be muslims who were not misguided. Someone educate me. Surely a muslim can serve his country and join the army.

[convert]

One who fights for nationalism is doing haraam as well, its not just about fighting muslims. Lets be honest, if you joing an army in a western nation, you'll be sent to fight muslims.

also,:wa:

I advise the brother in question to have taqwa and stay away from such an evil action.

[Rasema]

Okay............

Are you a practicing Muslim?

Do you know that a Muslim goes to JIHAD ARMY AND NOT TO A KAFIR ARMY!!!
Do you know that if a Muslim killes another Muslim the punishment for him is death as well according to Sharia?

You do have an honored name. I hope you set a good example of it.

[Rabi Mansur]

Okay............

Are you a practicing Muslim?

Do you know that a Muslim goes to JIHAD ARMY AND NOT TO A KAFIR ARMY!!!
Do you know that if a Muslim killes another Muslim the punishment for him is death as well according to Sharia?

You do have an honored name. I hope you set a good example of it.

What about when Iraq and Iran were at war? Both sides were Muslim. What happens there? Was the punishment death for both sides???

Peace. :peace:

[Al Ansari]

assalaamu 'alaikum,
I would not recommend it. I am strongly against that. As stated above you are going to be fighting the Muslims if you join. I had a brother amid the ranks of the American Army and he said that he heard the term 'Hajji' a lot used in a negative connotation. There was even Muslim chaplain whose wife was routinely stopped at the entrance to the gate (Ft. Jackson) because she wore the hijaab. What about the Chaplain (I think his name was CPT. Lee) who was under investigation because of his Islaam.

I will tell you I don't know how it is in the Canadian Forces, but in the US Forces it is a fitnah, and you will be asked to compromise. No matter how tolerant they have to be in order to serve all religious denominations. When my brother went to Jumah on Fridays it was only him and a brother from Senegal. Later on it was only him, going to Jumah himself to fulfill the commandment of Allaah awj.

There is also a lot of bad character, i.e. swearing, backbiting, zina, etc. My question is that these forces are indulged in sin and begin wars of greed and injustice. The only just war is Jihaad fisabilillah, because that is the only type of war waged for the sake of Allaah azza wa jall and not for the human whim.

I would advise you to stay away from it. If you are ordered to do something and you refuse based on a tenet of Islaam and it is a lawful order-you can be held to stand court-martial/UCMJ or the Canadian Forces equivalent of military law.


And Allaah knows best.

[Amanda]

Maybe I'm just sensitive from living in a country where I hear all about the vices of 'the West', but everyone is assuming that the entire Canadian Forces is non-Muslim. I don't have any numbers, but given the diversity of Canada, I would be very surprised. Also I would like to point out that Canada has not participated in any of the invasions into the Middle East... all the Canadian Forces have done are come in afterwards to act as peacekeepers. I don't know about the proper Muslim stance to have on joining the Forces, but just wanted to bring up the point about Canadians being the peacekeepers in these situations.

Also, I understand that it is a major sin to kill a Muslim... but what about those who are causing terror... either as a major terrorist or as someone who is oppressing other Muslims (such as has happened recently in the Middle East)?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

...What about when Iraq and Iran were at war? Both sides were Muslim. What happens there? Was the punishment death for both sides???

InshaAllah ordinary Muslims won't be punished even questinioned on the final day about wrong doing of Muslim leaders . These are something that we can not control .

But voluntarily joining army in a non-Muslim country where chances are high that he will have to take part in war against Muslims , surely one will be responsible for his this decision.

[Sampharo]

The matter here is not of whether or not there are enough muslims in the army to make it acceptable to be there, the question comes to the following:

Your non-muslim captain orders you to fire on the target, the target is a house in Afghanistan that holds suspected "terrorists" along with a few houses around holding normal civilians that a non-muslim politician and a non-muslim commander has deemed to be acceptable collateral damage. Your commanding officer tells you to fire, or else you will be killed on the spot for treason and insubordination in battle. WHat do you do?

Muslims go to war only in Jihad, and that Jihad has rules and conditions that will only be observed by muslim commanding officers. If they order something that is against the rules but you don't know about it, you are free of sin because your intention is clean and you are relying on the order of a muslim commander. If you accept to obey a non-muslim commander, there's no such responsibility carried and therefore every life you take you will be questioned for it.

We are forbidden from fighting for Al-Himya Al-Qabaliyya (tribalism) and "serving your country" especially a non-muslim one is such fighting. If people are drafted into an army they are ordered by islamic sheikhs to seek refuge and immigrate to avoid the draft. Now how do you think your ruling is for voluntarily going to a non-muslim army, swearing allegience to it, and commiting up front to obey orders of whatever commands you are given that you KNOW include shooting and killing people without question. (You know for a fact you will never be allowed to question a target if you think it's civilian or muslim)

Long story short, joining a non-muslim army or an army in a country not under a muslim leadership voluntarily is highly forbidden and your acts may lead you to eternity in hellfire if you kill muslims in battle, and no matter how much you want to you will not be able to choose not fighting mulsim countries. No, the propaganda will always make an argumentative case why the war is necessary and convince the secular (non-muslim population no matter how nice the people are) why a war against afghanistan/iraq/syria/pakistan/egypt is necessary, and the army will be launched to do what armies do, kill and destroy.

[Sampharo]

Also, I understand that it is a major sin to kill a Muslim... but what about those who are causing terror... either as a major terrorist or as someone who is oppressing other Muslims (such as has happened recently in the Middle East)?

Fighting khawarej and terrorists is not only permissible, but prescribed as required jihad, however it still needs to fulfill jihad rulings and that means answering to a muslim leader and observing sparing non-combatants and other rules.

[DigitalStorm82]

Example: Mohammad Ali

[Rasema]

Fighting khawarej and terrorists is not only permissible, but prescribed as required jihad, however it still needs to fulfill jihad rulings and that means answering to a muslim leader and observing sparing non-combatants and other rules.

:sl:

Note: I would like Sapharo to respond to this only.

How is it permitted to fight terrorists?!


We don't know their intentions.
I don't see what is it that they're doing wrong.:raging:

I mean, you are saying that you can reprove their school of thaught. They are not even a sect,I think.

[Rasema]

Also, I understand that it is a major sin to kill a Muslim... but what about those who are causing terror... either as a major terrorist or as someone who is oppressing other Muslims (such as has happened recently in the Middle East)?

:sl:

You shouldn't judge what you don't see with your eyes. Media hides a lot of detailes.

What about them? They are struggling we are in a kafir country!!!!

With kufis+o(

They(terrorists) might be better than us.
They might even helped Middle east from the kufis.
:wa:

[Rasema]

Example: Mohammad Ali

:sl:
Muhammad Ali has set a good example. He didn't join iftar with president Obama.
:wa:

[Sampharo]

:sl:

Note: I would like Sapharo to respond to this only.

How is it permitted to fight terrorists?!


We don't know their intentions.
I don't see what is it that they're doing wrong.:raging:

I mean, you are saying that you can reprove their school of thaught. They are not even a sect,I think.

That requires discussing sects and that is not allowed on the forum, however very quickly, khawarej IS a recognized sect, as a matter of fact one of very few recognized by the prophet directly and dictated by him to fight them. If they pronounce other muslims as apostates, break ranks of the government to fight other muslims under claims of reform, they are khawarej. If they take the verses of the Quran that were meant for jews and infidels and turn it around to make it applicable onto muslims, they are khawarej. If they kill muslim non-combatants and civilians, they are terrorists and khawarej. The prophet -pbuh- dictated that under no circumstances is turning on Waleyy Al-Amr, Amir, or government and killing non-combating muslims is allowed even if the leader or government is not applying shariah, unjust, or came into power using devious or violent ways. More than a dozen hadith are about the subject.

There is no school of thought to be accepted that breaks the direct dictation of the prophet. If they choose to commit dictated crimes, they are criminals, and the prophet said that there will come those who will wage war against the government, claiming reform, shouting quran verses that go no deeper than their throats, and shedding the blood of muslims more than infidels, and said the ones who fight them are the best of muslims.

Do not allow yourself to be taken in by arguments and claims of fighting kuffar, if they were true they would fill the depleted ranks of the army and go shoot at Israeli soldiers, not blow up Pakistani police stations and storm Somali government offices and blow up Egyptian and Indonesian cafes.

[zakirs]

@thread poster , brother ask some scholar or imam

In my view you can join army and follow your religion.If only you find it that practising your religion is hindered due to the rules then you should think otherwise.

And to all those who think he will be doing sin joining an non-islamic army, i think you are wrong.He commits sin only if he is part of an army which invades or harasses an innocent country,In anycase canada doesn't play a major role in invasion of Afghanistan.

[Sampharo]

And to all those who think he will be doing sin joining an non-islamic army, i think you are wrong.He commits sin only if he is part of an army which invades or harasses an innocent country,In anycase canada doesn't play a major role in invasion of Afghanistan.

Can you guarantee that throughout his career over the next decades the army will not attack another country that happens to be muslim?

Of course not.

He will be commiting a fatal major sin if one person he fires upon or one target he blows up happens to be muslim or housing muslims.

Scholars only disagreed on whether it is still forbidden to work in the armies in a strictly non-military form, and with the intention to learn and gain benefit. Sheikh Ibn Uthaiman for example says it is permissible if a person joins an army of a non-muslim country to learn their methodology, or for muslim officers in Arab countries to go and train and work closely with American troops and officers in order to gain knowledge that would give muslims the advantage. He also said it is permissible to be with them in a non-combating form to make dawah or to lead the prayers for muslims or interpret, however they should immediately cease their work if that interpretation is AGAINST muslim armies or involving interrogating muslim prisoners of war.

Ahmed is considering subscribing after high school, which means a life long career as a combatant.

[vlamrko]

i am a practicing muslim, married to a practicing muslim, and i am in the us armed forces. many other muslims are. this is not a war against islam, and a terrorist is not a muslim. a terrorist is a coward and a pig. a muslim is a good man or woman and i wouldnt advocate harming one for anything. i hope that helps, i am perhaps the only one with immediate experience from which you can derive accurate advice.

[pramudito]

peace,

active military servicemen (army, navy, air force etc) are living their life based on a certain decorum an some strict orders. I am so sure that once you are in, you will live under a chain of command.insubordination has no place. you could be deployed anywhere, anytime, against anyone for whatever purpose. my advice, stay off from things which would spell you trouble.

but again, it's just an advice. the last line is depending on how bad you want to be a servicemen, and your willing to take the risk.

all the best...

[GuestFellow]

No one knows the answer!??!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!

It would be better to ask an Imam about this.

[convert]

i am a practicing muslim, married to a practicing muslim, and i am in the us armed forces. many other muslims are. this is not a war against islam, and a terrorist is not a muslim. a terrorist is a coward and a pig. a muslim is a good man or woman and i wouldnt advocate harming one for anything. i hope that helps, i am perhaps the only one with immediate experience from which you can derive accurate advice.

you are in the very least a fasiq.

[GuestFellow]

^ I think it is best not to judge anyone.

[Sampharo]

you are in the very least a fasiq.

It is not of the behaviour or sunnah of muslims to directly refer to a person with a descriptive status.

We were taught in our Islamic studies that scholars pronounce the standing of an action or the ruling of a sin, not pronounce the standing of the person even if the ruling is unanimous. The basis is that - with the exception of dis-belief - you may not know if God has decided to forgive the person for this deed based on something we don't know or based on another good deed the person did that God accepted and gave greater weight. "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth;" [4:48]

Brother vlamrco, your being TOLD that you are fighting terrorists right now by non-muslim commanding officers does not absolve you from your responsibility, and your being a US serviceman while being a practicing muslim and thinking that it's acceptable, does not automatically make it so. Even if you and we wildly accept the proposition that EVERYONE the US army was attacking were strict murdering terrorists and khawarej, you are still Islamically denied from fighting under non-muslim commanding officers.

(On a separate note, I wonder, when you or your muslim servicemen buddies were shipped off to Iraq's invasion in 2003, were you and they also told that the Iraqi army and the Iraqi population were all terrorists and pigs? Did you swallow that garbage about "freeing" the iraqis, ending up raising your weapons against the "insurgents" and the "dictator's corrupt thugs"? Will you tell God on judgement day that your jewish or athiest captain told you to fire on that house so you did and "proud to be of service"? Don't fool yourself about what serving in a US or any non-muslim army requires)

[pramudito]

It is not of the behaviour or sunnah of muslims to directly refer to a person with a descriptive status.

We were taught in our Islamic studies that scholars pronounce the standing of an action or the ruling of a sin, not pronounce the standing of the person even if the ruling is unanimous. The basis is that - with the exception of dis-belief - you may not know if God has decided to forgive the person for this deed based on something we don't know or based on another good deed the person did that God accepted and gave greater weight. "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth;" [4:48]

Nicely put. Agree

[convert]

It is not of the behaviour or sunnah of muslims to directly refer to a person with a descriptive status.

We were taught in our Islamic studies that scholars pronounce the standing of an action or the ruling of a sin, not pronounce the standing of the person even if the ruling is unanimous. The basis is that - with the exception of dis-belief - you may not know if God has decided to forgive the person for this deed based on something we don't know or based on another good deed the person did that God accepted and gave greater weight. "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth;" [4:48]

Brother vlamrco, your being TOLD that you are fighting terrorists right now by non-muslim commanding officers does not absolve you from your responsibility, and your being a US serviceman while being a practicing muslim and thinking that it's acceptable, does not automatically make it so. Even if you and we wildly accept the proposition that EVERYONE the US army was attacking were strict murdering terrorists and khawarej, you are still Islamically denied from fighting under non-muslim commanding officers.

(On a separate note, I wonder, when you or your muslim servicemen buddies were shipped off to Iraq's invasion in 2003, were you and they also told that the Iraqi army and the Iraqi population were all terrorists and pigs? Did you swallow that garbage about "freeing" the iraqis, ending up raising your weapons against the "insurgents" and the "dictator's corrupt thugs"? Will you tell God on judgement day that your jewish or athiest captain told you to fire on that house so you did and "proud to be of service"? Don't fool yourself about what serving in a US or any non-muslim army requires)

Did the prophet(saw) not stand on the minbar during one particular jumaa and expose every last munafiq?

[Sampharo]

Did the prophet(saw) not stand on the minbar during one particular jumaa and expose every last munafiq?

That was the prophet -pbuh- with the archangel Gibrael standing beside him telling him every last one and who is forgiven and who is not, same as when a muslim was glorified by his friend and the prophet told him he sees him going to hell, and true enough the glorified muslim couldn't take the pain of an injury in a battle later on and killed himself.

We are not the prophet nor have the archangel at our side to tell us God's knowledge! And what the prophet does while leading the Islamic nation is not automatically permissible for laypeople or scholars.

[vlamrko]

Sampharo, with respect, i think you are in a position more susceptible to swallowing lies than myself, as i have been to and seen the iraqi and afghan warzone, and you have listened to the media (largely the american media) talk about it. you are not the first nor the only person who says these things about callous murder and how it is the practice and intention of the us military, but you are not in the us military. and i was not told one thing or another. i have killed one iraqi who carved off a child's head in front of my unit as a threat. i joined because in the blink of an eye thousands of innocent civilians were murdered by terrorists in 2001, right in front of me. i am not being told this. i saw it, and i see it upon each deployment. i am experiencing what you are presuming to be so informed on. you are being told.

[convert]

Sampharo, with respect, i think you are in a position more susceptible to swallowing lies than myself, as i have been to and seen the iraqi and afghan warzone, and you have listened to the media (largely the american media) talk about it. you are not the first nor the only person who says these things about callous murder and how it is the practice and intention of the us military, but you are not in the us military. and i was not told one thing or another. i have killed one iraqi who carved off a child's head in front of my unit as a threat. i joined because in the blink of an eye thousands of innocent civilians were murdered by terrorists in 2001, right in front of me. i am not being told this. i saw it, and i see it upon each deployment. i am experiencing what you are presuming to be so informed on. you are being told.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِن جَاءكُمْ فَاسِقٌ بِنَبَأٍ فَتَبَيَّنُوا أَن تُصِيبُوا قَوْمًا بِجَهَالَةٍ فَتُصْبِحُوا عَلَى مَا فَعَلْتُمْ نَادِمِينَ

O you who believe! if a fasiq brings you any news, examine it carefully, lest you should harm some people in ignorance and afterwards you may have to repent for what you did.

Surat al-Hujurat, ayah 6

[Abubashyr]

Salaam Aleykum Brother Convert,

I completely agree with you...many of these brothers don't understand that fighting on behalf of a western army will lead them to fighting our Muslim Brothers. I commend you for standing up for us!

Your brother in arms,

abubashyr

[Abubashyr]

Salaam Aleykum Brother Abd-al Latif,

The crimes of the occupation are countless. The worst crime of all is to exploit the people's weaknesses and dignity. By doing that, they not only kill the resistance but also ruin families.....ruin their dignity and ruin an entire people... ...A life without dignity is worthless....Especially when it reminds you day after day, of humiliation and weakness....And the world sits back and watches cowardly and indifferently...If you're all alone faced with this oppression you have to find a way to stop the injustice.

Thank you for providing this advice to Brother Ahmed Khan. I look forward to getting to know you.

Your Brother in Islam,

abubashyr

[Rasema]

Sampharo, with respect, i think you are in a position more susceptible to swallowing lies than myself, as i have been to and seen the iraqi and afghan warzone, and you have listened to the media (largely the american media) talk about it. you are not the first nor the only person who says these things about callous murder and how it is the practice and intention of the us military, but you are not in the us military. and i was not told one thing or another. i have killed one iraqi who carved off a child's head in front of my unit as a threat. i joined because in the blink of an eye thousands of innocent civilians were murdered by terrorists in 2001, right in front of me. i am not being told this. i saw it, and i see it upon each deployment. i am experiencing what you are presuming to be so informed on. you are being told.

You are a peace of garbage. +o(

i joined because in the blink of an eye thousands of innocent civilians were murdered by terrorists in 2001,

There are many people who witnessed the same thing you have,in fact, some became Muslim. You seem so senative,yet, you have killed a man who is using a child's head as a thread. Wow, aren't you a man. So what? terrorists have killed innocent people, that gives you an exuse for joining them agains Muslims!

You are the weakest thing on this earth.

[Sampharo]

Sampharo, with respect, i think you are in a position more susceptible to swallowing lies than myself,

I don't watch western media anymore, I sit with people escaping Iraqi and Afghan conflict and listen to first hand stories, and I investigate what I hear not take it for its face value.

as i have been to and seen the iraqi and afghan warzone, and you have listened to the media (largely the american media) talk about it.

Seeing a warzone doesn't make you a hero, and does not change the fact that you stepped in side by side next to non-muslims, led by non-muslims, and the first attack you were fighting the muslim depleted army of Iraq and of course easily won. No media is involved in these facts!

and i was not told one thing or another. i have killed one iraqi who carved off a child's head in front of my unit as a threat....

I joined because in the blink of an eye thousands of innocent civilians were murdered by terrorists in 2001, right in front of me.

Really? how is it that you came to believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11? Your masjed sheikh?! Or the red-neck screaming sergent that told you you're shipping out to "I-rak" to kick some insurgent --- and take away the WMD's from a mad dictator?

Do you think the bombing runs performed by your fellow airmen that statistically killed tens of thousands of civilians and iraqi soldiers were video games, or were they conspiracy theories and media manipulation as well? If you were on the spearhead operation and fighting Iraqi soldiers gun to gun and tank to tank, defending their land, and you on the side blowing them to hell and taking over the city and airport, would you have refused to fire your weapon?!?!?! Don't bull---- us, nobody here is that thick, and stop bull----ing yourself either.

Heavens doors open to "La Elaha Ella Allah", not Semper Fi.

[Intisar]

Maybe I'm just sensitive from living in a country where I hear all about the vices of 'the West', but everyone is assuming that the entire Canadian Forces is non-Muslim. I don't have any numbers, but given the diversity of Canada, I would be very surprised. Also I would like to point out that Canada has not participated in any of the invasions into the Middle East... all the Canadian Forces have done are come in afterwards to act as peacekeepers. I don't know about the proper Muslim stance to have on joining the Forces, but just wanted to bring up the point about Canadians being the peacekeepers in these situations.

Also, I understand that it is a major sin to kill a Muslim... but what about those who are causing terror... either as a major terrorist or as someone who is oppressing other Muslims (such as has happened recently in the Middle East)?

:sl: I'm from Canada too and that's a big load of hooey. If you actually believe that Canadian forces act as ''peacekeepers'' then you're extremely naive.

Canadian forces went into Somalia in the early 90s to ''peacekeep'' and guess what they did? So many human rights abuses, that even the UN's probably lost count. It doesn't matter how diverse a country is, look at England, racism and xenophobia still exist.

It sounds so appealing to get your college/uni tuition paid off for you and blah blah blah, but when it really comes down to it, they just wanna destroy our base (Islam). Right in our homelands. I mean, granted there is corruption going on in most countries, it doesn't really compare to Western countries coming into your country telling you that you're basically savages and we wanna help ''civilise'' you. And then what? To have your own Muslim brother/sister be apart of that? How would you feel?

I'd feel absolutely ashamed, disgusted, and heart-broken. I mean the very same people that are responsible for making the situation in most Muslim countries worse, now has one of us helping them? Subhan'Allaah. Just think about it bro.