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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 05:17 AM
This was an interesting debate brought up on the other thread and unfortunately, it could not be elaborated since the thread went off topic.

Alright, now the thing is, ALL of us Muslims here DO mind when the western world calls us "terrorists" right? Be it because of their propaganda, or because of our acts (which is not the case) us Muslims HAVE had our reputation go down due to the actions done by the groups such the Taliban who perform sins in the name of OUR religion. Their actions DID make our religion come across as wrong and ever since then, the Western world never stopped calling us terrorists and till today we fight against this injustice as what they say is wrong and we are NOT terrorists although in the modern times (immediate present) only Muslims have had an "islamic group" who performed terror in the name of our religion (Taliban). In this aspect, the other religions come off as clean as they DO have terrorists, but hardly do they perform crime in the name of religion.

But look at us. Everytime we talk about the west, we ALWAYS go on like how shallow they are, how they are like public property, they have no shame and freely go to bed with anyone, they do drugs, etc.

How can we expect them to stop calling us terrorists, if we dont stop calling them these? Fact is, MANY of the muslim population (even the ones who arent living in the west) perform the same act as them sitting here in our "Muslim countries".

What the most of their population does, is not right. But what we do, is not right either. If they do the wrong thing, we must try to correct them, but you can NEVER correct someone if you constantly criticize them without any will to show them the right path. Thats what we do all the time.

So we feel bad when they wrongfully call us terrorists right? What about the people in the west, the ones who DO stay away from these activities, how do they feel when we talk about them in this way?

Islam has taught us to be kind to everyone and to be nice. Not to go about flaming people like that. So why are we still doing this? Instead of badmouthing the western people, we should instead try to make them understand that what they are doing is wrong.

Think of it this way, suppose there are political parties. Now one party is democratic while the other is communist. Now, obvious the democratic party has the advantage due to its features so the democratic party and the communist party, CONSTANTLY badmouths each other but it is the democratic party who wants the communist party to stop bad mouthing about them.

Do you ACTUALLY believe the communist party will stop? No, the communists arent asking the democrats to stop bad mouthing them either so they have no obligations to keep going. But since the democrats want the communists to stop bad mouthing, the democrats should be the FIRST people to stop, and show the communists that they can be good people in order for the communists to stop their wrong doing.

In this case, we are the democrats, they are the communists. Our ideology and form of Government is greatly superior, but we are stooping down in the same level as them in order to badmouth. WE SHOULD STOP.



As long as we associate the western people with things like shallowness, sinful adultery, drugs, etc. The western people are not obligated to call us Muslims - terrorists.

If we want THEM to change, WE OURSELVES have to change first.


This is the point I am trying to make.
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 05:31 AM
Originally Posted by Fighting4iman
considering the west to be shameless and sinful is not wrong - it is very correct. CALLING THEM it like a fool, in a way which will make them angry may not be the most intelligent thing to be done however they should DEFINITLY one way or another be WARNED about their way of life.
If we make them look like a fool, do you think they will ever learn? We are trying to make them realize that what they are doing is wrong, so we must go about it in a "willing to teach" manner instead of a "criticize and show that we are better" manner.

If you want to warn them, do it in the right way. Don't flame them, criticize them or badmouth them as in the end, instead of teaching them anything, you will turn them into BIGGER enemies against Islam as NO-ONE likes to be bad mouthed.

People who badmouth them like this, are pouring salt over their own religion as they are feeding the enemy's hatred against us.

Think, what would Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) do to correct them? Do it as you would do for Sunnah, OR dont try to correct them at all if you dont have the WILL to teach them.



Originally Posted by Najm
Moreover, you may not have left your house for a long time, but "in the west", adultery, drugs, clubbing, pubbing, anit-social behaviour, as well as the revolting level of toilet ettiquettes as suggested by this thread is very common practice. This isnt "Extemely stereotypical", spend a day in the public toilets and you'llsee for yourself the revolting activites that commonly occur.
Yes, what about the people who dont do these?

And trust me, the west is pretty clean with bathroom etiquette compared to what I hear about / see in African and South Asian Muslim countries.

Ive been to USA plenty of times and I didnt see a SINGLE person there not using soap after they finish using the toilet. Yes, in public toilets. And from what is common knowledge, European bathroom etiquette is superior to the Americans so I have no idea where you got that idea from.

But yes, one thing they do that I dont agree with is not applying water after they finish erm, releasing their wastes. Other than that, they ALWAYS wash their hands after they urinate AND after they finish releasing waste..

So see? US Muslims have assumed these things of them which are not true through indirect means of propaganda which has spread because we bad mouth them.

If you DO see people not washing hands after using the bathroom, those people are usually the South Asians (unfortunately) from the countries such as India, Bangladesh, etc.



Did you people hear about the story when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) went 3 weeks (or 1 week, I dont remember which) without having any sweets in order to advise a child that having sweets is wrong?

So in this situation, we MUST do the same. We must stop badmouthing them (even if we are right) in order for them to stop badmouthing us. So lets begin this motion. Let us change ourselves first before we ask them to do the same as THIS would be the right thing to do.
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Ramadhan
09-25-2009, 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
How can we expect them to stop calling us terrorists, if we dont stop calling them these?
And you expect them to stop calling us terrorist if we stop (allegedly) calling those western individuals for their acts?
How naive.
It is the western media that perpetuate the image and idea of muslim as terrorist.
Not all western people think all muslims are terrorist, just as not all muslims think all westerners are filthy.

However, I agree that we as ummah need to improve our individual behaviour as close as the sunnah.
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 07:07 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
And you expect them to stop calling us terrorist if we stop (allegedly) calling those western individuals for their acts?
How naive.
It is the western media that perpetuate the image and idea of muslim as terrorist.
Well, why not be the better man and show them that we will respond to their harsh with sweeter words. Wouldnt this be the right thing to do?

And lets not forget, it is the Muslim media that perpetuate the image and idea of western culture as filthy.

Although we are right in saying so, and they are wrong, we should still not say something that would increase their hatred against us. We are all pouring fat into fire.

As Muslims, it is our job to show the world that we are the better people so why dont we start doing this first and set an example? This will no doubts aid in clearing our "bad" name.
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 07:09 AM
respond to their harsh words with sweeter words.
correction there and I also wanted to add another point.

If they like Islam better, chances are that they will convert to Islam faster as well. So why not show them our good nature?
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Ramadhan
09-25-2009, 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
As Muslims, it is our job to show the world that we are the better people so why dont we start doing this first and set an example? This will no doubts aid in clearing our "bad" name.
As muslims, our job is to please Allah SWT, not to please other people.
Everything else will fall correctly into its place Insya Allah.
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GreyKode
09-25-2009, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
correction there and I also wanted to add another point.

If they like Islam better, chances are that they will convert to Islam faster as well. So why not show them our good nature?
This is a completely wrong mode of thinking brother, you should literally understand this "IT is ALLAH(swt) and only ALLAH(swt) who guides", we can't sugar coat Islam for them just to get them convert and then maybe later they apostate.
I used to think like you, but you have to realize that ALLAH(swt) is in no need of people we are the ones in need of him.
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
As muslims, our job is to please Allah SWT, not to please other people.
Everything else will fall correctly into its place Insya Allah.
Think long term dude. If we can show them how good we are (Allah WANTS us to be polite and good like that) they will like us better and they will ACTUALLY want to agree to want to give Islam a chance (see what its like) and ANYONE who looks at Islam properly WOULD know that our religion is the right religion.

by the way, you have a wrong attitude, whats wrong with pleasing others?? Just because its not a Farz to please others, are you willing to go anger them and make them hate us instead? Like I said, "salt over your own religion".

Originally Posted by GreyKode
This is a completely wrong mode of thinking brother, you should literally understand this "IT is ALLAH(swt) and only ALLAH(swt) who guides", we can't sugar coat Islam for them just to get them convert and then maybe later they apostate.
I used to think like you, but you have to realize that ALLAH(swt) is in no need of people we are the ones in need of him.
How are we "sugar coating" Islam by returning their flaming with nice words? Isnt that what our prophet has taught us? To be nice and polite to everyone? We are doing a Sunnah by returning their insults with well mannered responses and NOT insult them back about their "filthiness" as you people put it.


I dont understand you people. Think about it. What I am trying to say, is it wrong in ANY form or shape? Does it HARM anyone or anything in ANY possible way?
The Answer is a no for all the questions.

Now, lets look at it from another point of view.
Is it the right choice to be polite instead of insulting them back? Does this help anyone or anything if we do this?
Answer for both those questions is a YES. Your parents, your religion (Islam) has always taught you to be nice and polite and it is common knowledge that insulting is a bad thing. So we should chose the right path, should we not?
And yes, it also helps us gain, as well as helps Islam gain. It helps us by improving our nature. Once we learn to be tolerant towards their insults, we will see that our nature will change for the better. It will make us come across as good natured people. Everyone likes people like that and always hears them out. And finally, it will help Islam come into the hearts of others, as when they see that we are not as bad as they think we are, they will not hate us any longer and they will actually give Islam a chance and once they see how good it is, they will accept our religion.

Now, I KNOW Allah doesnt need them to accept Islam. But Allah WANTS them to accept Islam, am I not right? By doing this, we will indirectly be helping someone chose the right path which is a great Suwab (dont know if I spelled it right).

Tell me, WHY are you people so AGAINST the idea of helping the non believers out? It seems to me that you guys would rather insult them than show them the right path.
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 12:53 PM
Oh and if you guys are familiar with facebook, you will know HOW many *f Islam* groups there are there. And guess what ACTUALLY fuels them? When us Muslims go there and start insulting them back.. They feed off our insults and if we simply STOP our insults and instead be good to them, there wont be anymore fun in staying with that group and eventually, everyone will leave and feel bad about doing this. But it is US Muslims who are refusing to get rid of our enemies by stooping down to the same low grade as them.
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rpwelton
09-25-2009, 01:00 PM
We should always act with good manners and behave well towards others, whether they be Muslims or non-Muslims. However, we should not go to the extent where we seek to appease them and make them like us by submitting to their will.

For instance, most of the Western governments want all Muslims to become secular like the Christians have. Of course they don't mind that we pray 5 times a day, but they'd rather we lose our desire to see Shari'a law implemented and to live by the laws of God.

Many Muslims around the world have already given into this and have left a good part of their deen behind them. This is not the right attitude; we need to be steadfast in our religion and hold true to every aspect, no matter how displeasing it is to the non-Muslims.

The most amazing thing is no matter how hard they bash Islam, call us terrorists or the like, people are still coming to Islam in droves. We need to dispel these false notions of extremism as much as we can and give da'wah, but know that this religion is succeeding because of Allah, not because of us.
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Ramadhan
09-25-2009, 01:10 PM
^ what a great post Masha Allah!
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by rpwelton
We should always act with good manners and behave well towards others, whether they be Muslims or non-Muslims. However, we should not go to the extent where we seek to appease them and make them like us by submitting to their will.

For instance, most of the Western governments want all Muslims to become secular like the Christians have. Of course they don't mind that we pray 5 times a day, but they'd rather we lose our desire to see Shari'a law implemented and to live by the laws of God.

Many Muslims around the world have already given into this and have left a good part of their deen behind them. This is not the right attitude; we need to be steadfast in our religion and hold true to every aspect, no matter how displeasing it is to the non-Muslims.

The most amazing thing is no matter how hard they bash Islam, call us terrorists or the like, people are still coming to Islam in droves. We need to dispel these false notions of extremism as much as we can and give da'wah, but know that this religion is succeeding because of Allah, not because of us.
hmm, I completely agree with you, but the thing is, I wasnt trying to say we should submit to their will.. Well, my point was, we should stop insulting the west about "their way of doing things" so that they understand that we are being the better people by not stooping to their level and eventually, they would stop. My motion is simply to stop the insults. Its not to hard to do, and in the end, it will do all of us good.
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rpwelton
09-25-2009, 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
hmm, I completely agree with you, but the thing is, I wasnt trying to say we should submit to their will.. Well, my point was, we should stop insulting the west about "their way of doing things" so that they understand that we are being the better people by not stooping to their level and eventually, they would stop. My motion is simply to stop the insults. Its not to hard to do, and in the end, it will do all of us good.
I guess perhaps we're not on the same page. When you say "insults", do you mean Muslims going up to non-Muslims and insulting their way of dress (for being too immodest) or their drinking, fornication, etc? I have never heard of Muslims doing this, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

Or are you talking about how Muslims will often generalize the West given its current state of moral depravity?

We should never generalize a people as a whole, but we can say by and large the West is like such and such, because it's true. We shouldn't use that as an arguing point against them until we show them the beauties of Islam (ie, don't just bash them), but we also shouldn't ignore it like there isn't a problem.

There was a survey done not too long ago amongst people in Muslim countries on what they thought was wrong with America. Then they did the same survey with Americans about what was wrong with America. Turns out they agreed on about 90% of the points.

So the West has a problem and it knows it. But we should always offer up how Islam is a beautiful solution in a respectful manner and not be condescending.

As Muslims we sometimes tend to talk condescendingly towards the West amongst ourselves, but I've never heard of Muslims doing that with non-Muslims. But then again maybe I've been living under a rock.

EDIT: To add to GreyKode's point, go on any Islamic youtube video where Christians and other non-Muslims post comments. 90% of the time the non-Muslim is hurling insults and the Muslim is simply responding by conveying the message. Very rarely do I see Muslims getting heated over these issues and throwing the insults back at the non-Muslims.
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GreyKode
09-25-2009, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Oh and if you guys are familiar with facebook, you will know HOW many *f Islam* groups there are there. And guess what ACTUALLY fuels them? When us Muslims go there and start insulting them back.. They feed off our insults and if we simply STOP our insults and instead be good to them, there wont be anymore fun in staying with that group and eventually, everyone will leave and feel bad about doing this. But it is US Muslims who are refusing to get rid of our enemies by stooping down to the same low grade as them.
Brother, I NEVER said anything about being impolite or disrespectful to them, I am completely against insults.
But don't you often find accusations against muslims of being backward and how the hijab degrades women although muslim women come out often and defend the hijab yet they insist on this accusation.
All I am saying is that you will never be able to please them. All over youtube you can find christians ganging up with Jews, hindus and athiests!!! against muslims, how many usernames f*ALLAH, Muslim*f by christians do you find on youtube.
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by rpwelton
I guess perhaps we're not on the same page. When you say "insults", do you mean Muslims going up to non-Muslims and insulting their way of dress (for being too immodest) or their drinking, fornication, etc? I have never heard of Muslims doing this, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

Or are you talking about how Muslims will often generalize the West given its current state of moral depravity?

We should never generalize a people as a whole, but we can say by and large the West is like such and such, because it's true. We shouldn't use that as an arguing point against them until we show them the beauties of Islam (ie, don't just bash them), but we also shouldn't ignore it like there isn't a problem.

There was a survey done not too long ago amongst people in Muslim countries on what they thought was wrong with America. Then they did the same survey with Americans about what was wrong with America. Turns out they agreed on about 90% of the points.

So the West has a problem and it knows it. But we should always offer up how Islam is a beautiful solution in a respectful manner and not be condescending.

As Muslims we sometimes tend to talk condescendingly towards the West amongst ourselves, but I've never heard of Muslims doing that with non-Muslims. But then again maybe I've been living under a rock.

EDIT: To add to GreyKode's point, go on any Islamic youtube video where Christians and other non-Muslims post comments. 90% of the time the non-Muslim is hurling insults and the Muslim is simply responding by conveying the message. Very rarely do I see Muslims getting heated over these issues and throwing the insults back at the non-Muslims.
hmm, quite true, I completely agree with what you say but either way, we should refrain from generalizing them as "filthy" the same way they generalize us as "terrorists" right? But if you take the time and go over some of the *f Islam* groups on facebook, you'll see what I mean..

@Greykode: I used to play this game called tribalwars and there was this player who used the user name of "Alllah" and for a while there I made it a personal agenda to destroy that player if I ever meet him but unfortunately, I never got the chance.. It really pisses me off when I see them disrespect our RELIGION (not even us) like that and well, fortunately, us Muslims NEVER show disrespect to their religion. Hopefully, they will come to understand this as everything takes time :)
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S_87
09-25-2009, 04:32 PM
us Muslims HAVE had our reputation go down due to the actions done by the groups such the Taliban who perform sins in the name of OUR religion
whatd the taliban do except defend their country? and who are you to say their acts is a sin?
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ieshia
09-25-2009, 04:58 PM
As much as I agree with the original poster about majority of the points he/she made, what i don't understand is, why we're comparing a religion to a culture.

Religion wise I wouldn't ever pick another religion over Islam. If, god forbid, i left my religion i would always believe in god but wont pick another religion after Islam cause i truly believe it's the best religion out there. When it comes to culture, i would rather live the western culture than east(religion aside, as in not giving up my religion).
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 04:59 PM
Amani, disregarding western propaganda, havent you heard what the Taliban did to Afganistan after they drove out the russians?

It was far worse than what Russia even did to the country. They murdered in the name of Islam. THAT is terrorism above all else.

Only Allah has the right to take lives. Not us.
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ieshia
09-25-2009, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by amani
whatd the taliban do except defend their country? and who are you to say their acts is a sin?
Well i don't know, doing things against Islam is usually considered a sin by us Muslims!

Let's see not allowing women to get an education(when in the quran it says we are all to get an education. Prophet Muhammad had said it multiple times how men and women all should be educated). Also killing all innocent people who try to talk against their rule is usually considered a bad thing. All the human right violations..The list could go on for ever, but it's pretty sick that you tried to defend someone like that.
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by ieshia
As much as I agree with the original poster about majority of the points he/she made, what i don't understand is, why we're comparing a religion to a culture.

Religion wise I wouldn't ever pick another religion over Islam. If, god forbid, i left my religion i would always believe in god but wont pick another religion after Islam cause i truly believe it's the best religion out there. When it comes to culture, i would rather live the western culture than east(religion aside, as in not giving up my religion).
hmm, actually, it is natural for everyone to want to live in the western culture, but the thing is, Islam forbids us to do the things a lot of people in the west commonly do so to be honest, although id rather live by the western code, I would do my best to force myself from going into their culture too much because in the absolute end, it will only bring me harm even if its fun and good for me in the short run.

The problem with me is, I like some others, think too much of the short run. Its true, I always go about every now and then about how Islam is TOO strict or how some things should be allowed to be, but in the end, I know that the things I want to be made allowed, are STILL harmful or wrong in some way or the other and Islam makes sure we stay away from these things, even if it is crazily strict.
But in the end, if we make the sacrifice and stay away from forbidden things, we can easily surpass 70 years of pain on earth with an eternity of joy in Heaven.
I actually have to teach this to myself first, but I do my best not to come across as a total hypocrite ^_^

So my point was, the safe way is the Muslim community way, the hard way is the western way as unfortunately, Islam forbids majority of the western culture to us.
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Eliphaz
09-25-2009, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Amani, disregarding western propaganda, havent you heard what the Taliban did to Afganistan after they drove out the russians?

It was far worse than what Russia even did to the country. They murdered in the name of Islam. THAT is terrorism above all else.

Only Allah has the right to take lives. Not us.
Chocci, bro, please read the Qur'an.

“…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” [Al-Qur’an 6:151]

It permits killing another in self defense. As Allah says in the Qur'an, many synagogues and churches and mosques glorifying His name would have been destroyed if people did not defend themselves.

This sanctity of life thing is all great and well if humans are saints, but unfortunately the real situation in the world is that there are and will always be wars for many reasons.

If Muslims did not defend themselves, do you think Islam would have survived the 7th century?
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 05:37 PM
Omar, try to understand that I am not pulling these out of the air. I heard these stories of Talibans from an Afgan himself about how Talibans KILLED hazarahs in Afganistan for NO reason at all and how they killing people for "supposedly sinning" in order to take over their houses, etc... They probably even killed women for being raped or something. This is terrorism man. The taliban did right when they liberated Afganistan. They ONLY did wrong after that.

Even Bangladesh has a terrorist "Islamic group" called JMB. They bomb all places they consider "unholy" or try to kill people who are stepping in their way in politics.

Terrorism DOES exist in EVERY religion. The problem is, unfortunately these groups commit their crimes in the name of our religion. They are not true Muslims but followers of Shaitan trying to put dirt on our name.
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ieshia
09-25-2009, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
hmm, actually, it is natural for everyone to want to live in the western culture, but the thing is, Islam forbids us to do the things a lot of people in the west commonly do so to be honest, although id rather live by the western code, I would do my best to force myself from going into their culture too much because in the absolute end, it will only bring me harm even if its fun and good for me in the short run.

The problem with me is, I like some others, think too much of the short run. Its true, I always go about every now and then about how Islam is TOO strict or how some things should be allowed to be, but in the end, I know that the things I want to be made allowed, are STILL harmful or wrong in some way or the other and Islam makes sure we stay away from these things, even if it is crazily strict.
But in the end, if we make the sacrifice and stay away from forbidden things, we can easily surpass 70 years of pain on earth with an eternity of joy in Heaven.
I actually have to teach this to myself first, but I do my best not to come across as a total hypocrite ^_^

So my point was, the safe way is the Muslim community way, the hard way is the western way as unfortunately, Islam forbids majority of the western culture to us.
For me, i don't feel the rules to be too strict, i think they make sense. The acts we can't do are because they are harmful. You don't even need religion for that. If you take religion out and just do what is good/right and what's bad, you will probably be following Islam(with the exception of salat, hajj, Fasting or any type of worship to show god our gratitude). When religion becomes difficult is when people make it hard on their self, and fall prey to uncivilized behavior. Especially when people start to read the words of the Quran word for word, rather than understanding the point behind why what was said. A lot written in the Quran is there so people of that time could understand it rather than thinking it's all fairytale talk. Words in the Quran obviously helps us set the morals so everyone can understand them, before someone is old enough to gain knowledge to answer the Why about everything god asked us to do.

Coming back to eastern and western culture, again western culture is better in my opinion. The western culture allows us to choose, and make our own decisions. I know most people in the west end up choosing the more harmful path for the long run but there are also those who choose the path that will be better in the long run even if it's not as appealing right now. Just like in Islam, random people have no right to force anything on someone and we are given a brain by god so we can choose. Oppose to the eastern culture where robots are demanded instead of people so they will do as commanded without having options or right to choose.

When it comes to Religion, Islam takes the cake, because it is the most fair and the one that makes sense unlike any other major religion that i have studied. I can't really say the same about the followers though.
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ieshia
09-25-2009, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Omar_21:30
Chocci, bro, please read the Qur'an.

“…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” [Al-Qur’an 6:151]

It permits killing another in self defense. As Allah says in the Qur'an, many synagogues and churches and mosques glorifying His name would have been destroyed if people did not defend themselves.

This sanctity of life thing is all great and well if humans are saints, but unfortunately the real situation in the world is that there are and will always be wars for many reasons.

If Muslims did not defend themselves, do you think Islam would have survived the 7th century?
When was there ever a war against Islam going on in the past decade? I must have slept through that. The only people hurting Islam are the terrorist groups who are trying to misguide people of Islam into something made up by those uneducated terrorists. The people you're trying to defend right now. All they did was everything against the teaching of the quran and then they tried to pass their acts as justice and tried to manipulate people into believing that is the right way. They committed one of the biggest sin there by misguiding people into some weird religion they made up their selves. They're nothing but huge gangsters who want to spread terror.

I agree that it's okay to defend your self and no country or person who does is wrong by any means, BUT a criminal has no right to that. If someone shoots me in the leg and in self defense i shoot the person back, It doesn't give that person the right to practice self defense by shooting my head off.
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ChOcCi
09-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by ieshia
When was there ever a war against Islam going on in the past decade? I must have slept through that. The only people hurting Islam are the terrorist groups who are trying to misguide people of Islam into something made up by those uneducated terrorists. The people you're trying to defend right now. All they did was everything against the teaching of the quran and then they tried to pass their acts as justice and tried to manipulate people into believing that is the right way. They committed one of the biggest sin there by misguiding people into some weird religion they made up their selves. They're nothing but huge gangsters who want to spread terror.

I agree that it's okay to defend your self and no country or person who does is wrong by any means, BUT a criminal has no right to that. If someone shoots me in the leg and in self defense i shoot the person back, It doesn't give that person the right to practice self defense by shooting my head off.
haha nice analogy :) I completely agree with you ^_^
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ieshia
09-25-2009, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
haha nice analogy :) I completely agree with you ^_^
haha
I wish there a high five smiley on here
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rpwelton
09-25-2009, 09:11 PM
...............
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Eliphaz
09-26-2009, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Omar, try to understand that I am not pulling these out of the air. I heard these stories of Talibans from an Afgan himself about how Talibans KILLED hazarahs in Afganistan for NO reason at all and how they killing people for "supposedly sinning" in order to take over their houses, etc...
Chocci, please point out where I defended the Taliban. I was simply referring to your statement "Only Allah has the right to take lives, not us" and pointing out to you how, in fact, Allah swt has given Muslims the right to fight, but purely in self-defence. This obviously excludes acts of terrorism, which I think this thread was originally about...

Originally Posted by ieshia
When was there ever a war against Islam going on in the past decade? I must have slept through that. The only people hurting Islam are the terrorist groups who are trying to misguide people of Islam into something made up by those uneducated terrorists. The people you're trying to defend right now.
Again, ieshia, please read my post. Where am I defending terrorists? :exhausted Please read before posting. As for the rest of your post, I don't even know where to start!

Originally Posted by rpwelton
...............
My thoughts exactly. :D
Reply

Eliphaz
09-26-2009, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by rpwelton
We should always act with good manners and behave well towards others, whether they be Muslims or non-Muslims. However, we should not go to the extent where we seek to appease them and make them like us by submitting to their will.

For instance, most of the Western governments want all Muslims to become secular like the Christians have. Of course they don't mind that we pray 5 times a day, but they'd rather we lose our desire to see Shari'a law implemented and to live by the laws of God.

Many Muslims around the world have already given into this and have left a good part of their deen behind them. This is not the right attitude; we need to be steadfast in our religion and hold true to every aspect, no matter how displeasing it is to the non-Muslims.

The most amazing thing is no matter how hard they bash Islam, call us terrorists or the like, people are still coming to Islam in droves. We need to dispel these false notions of extremism as much as we can and give da'wah, but know that this religion is succeeding because of Allah, not because of us.
exactly...
Reply

S_87
09-26-2009, 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Amani, disregarding western propaganda, havent you heard what the Taliban did to Afganistan after they drove out the russians?

Only Allah has the right to take lives. Not us.
yeh but it seems what i heard and you heard is different.

and as for your last comment. in what context? is there such a thing as jihad to you?

Let's see not allowing women to get an education(when in the quran it says we are all to get an education. Prophet Muhammad had said it multiple times how men and women all should be educated). Also killing all innocent people who try to talk against their rule is usually considered a bad thing. All the human right violations..The list could go on for ever, but it's pretty sick that you tried to defend someone like that
where besides from propaganda have you heard they denied women education? they had to build a destroyed country from scratch with not that much money! maybe the west should have also reported how they built women only hospitals..but oh no that might make them sound good

and yes i am well aware of the hadith that states education is a must for both men and women

and killing a person who stands up against shariah and tries to disrupt people who want shariah- well that would be treason against country and war against Allah. so killing such a person? being bad?

human rights also considers the punishment for zina ordered in the Quran to be a violation. would you like to comment on that?

and also, what the taliban di u may find in places like saudi, but no ones complaining because of the $$ and black gold. so its inconsistent
Reply

Najm
09-26-2009, 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Yes, what about the people who dont do these?

And trust me, the west is pretty clean with bathroom etiquette compared to what I hear about / see in African and South Asian Muslim countries.

Ive been to USA plenty of times and I didnt see a SINGLE person there not using soap after they finish using the toilet. Yes, in public toilets. And from what is common knowledge, European bathroom etiquette is superior to the Americans so I have no idea where you got that idea from.

But yes, one thing they do that I dont agree with is not applying water after they finish erm, releasing their wastes. Other than that, they ALWAYS wash their hands after they urinate AND after they finish releasing waste..

So see? US Muslims have assumed these things of them which are not true through indirect means of propaganda which has spread because we bad mouth them.

If you DO see people not washing hands after using the bathroom, those people are usually the South Asians (unfortunately) from the countries such as India, Bangladesh, etc.



Did you people hear about the story when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) went 3 weeks (or 1 week, I dont remember which) without having any sweets in order to advise a child that having sweets is wrong?

So in this situation, we MUST do the same. We must stop badmouthing them (even if we are right) in order for them to stop badmouthing us. So lets begin this motion. Let us change ourselves first before we ask them to do the same as THIS would be the right thing to do.
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Again i spoke generally about the "west", not about each and every individual person. And regarding pubilc toilets, i fully stand by my comments. I worked at an international airport as well as service station found on the motoway, and in my time i have got to know the cleaners and all the toilets issues they brought (hence i have stated). And i am more than sure than generally the toilet ettiquettes in the "muslim countries" are better than in the west.

^^ This i speak about common, Further i stated about anti social behaviour, clubbing, pubbing, adultery, drugs etc etc < these are common behaviour in the west. And your saying that these are not "true" but a mere propaganda, and your asking us not to generalize, because there are "some" who dont.

Further it "seems" you are telling us to change "ourselves" to change them. But what you should be saying....

"change ourselves for the sake of Allah!!"

Above everything we should seek the pleasure of Allah, not to change the thinking of the west. You say Islam teach us to be kind and nice, and your correct, but that doesnt mean to submit to their will. If your intention is to change yourself to change the west, then you may end up changing your religion.

I dont really understand, what you mean by bad mouthing. We as a nation speak good and forbid evil. We as a nation fight against injustice. We all want to please Allah and if doing so we are called names and so forth, then so be it.

FiAmaaniAllah
Reply

Najm
09-26-2009, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Well, why not be the better man and show them that we will respond to their harsh with sweeter words. Wouldnt this be the right thing to do?

And lets not forget, it is the Muslim media that perpetuate the image and idea of western culture as filthy.

Although we are right in saying so, and they are wrong, we should still not say something that would increase their hatred against us. We are all pouring fat into fire.

As Muslims, it is our job to show the world that we are the better people so why dont we start doing this first and set an example? This will no doubts aid in clearing our "bad" name.
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Western culture IS filthy. Im glad you recognise, yet you prepared to "defend" this as their way of life. And then your saying we should change oursselves so we can change them.

So how should we go about telling the west the issues i have said is wrong( i.e adultery/alcohol)? Since your suggesting "we dont say anything", since that would increase their hatred towards us. What/How should we do it?

Finally you speak about not insulting etc etc, but you were more than happy to insult one of our sisters on this very forum with the kind of brainless comments we expect from the non-muslims. Am i seeing double standards?

Regarding terrorism, i suggest you watch this very powerful lecture by Dr Zakir Naik in full....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHBJmQIz7g

FiAmaaniAllah
Reply

Muezzin
09-26-2009, 03:34 PM
I agree that answering hateful generalisations with hateful generalisations doesn't get anyone anywhere.

There's a difference between that and looking at a given culture or religion on balance and essentially saying, 'well, weighing up the pros and cons, something's wrong here, something's not adding up'. That leads to discussion, clarification and improvement.

Saying 'X religion/Y culture is full of EEVIIL' is not exactly conducive to the search for truth, justice and the Islamic way, to say the least.
Reply

ieshia
09-26-2009, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Omar_21:30
Chocci, please point out where I defended the Taliban. I was simply referring to your statement "Only Allah has the right to take lives, not us" and pointing out to you how, in fact, Allah swt has given Muslims the right to fight, but purely in self-defence. This obviously excludes acts of terrorism, which I think this thread was originally about...



Again, ieshia, please read my post. Where am I defending terrorists? :exhausted Please read before posting. As for the rest of your post, I don't even know where to start!



My thoughts exactly. :D
Well i'm sorry but you should pick your words better before replying. You came in the middle of a conversation and made a comment, and any sane person will know that you're talking about the discussion that was going on, unless you specifically say what your comment is referring to. The OP wasn't talking about the right to self defense in anyway, he was talking about terrorists(who have no right to self defense) but you came in and pointed out something completely irrelevant to his post with a completely absurd topic in hope to prove his point wrong.
Reply

ieshia
09-26-2009, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by amani
yeh but it seems what i heard and you heard is different.

and as for your last comment. in what context? is there such a thing as jihad to you?


where besides from propaganda have you heard they denied women education? they had to build a destroyed country from scratch with not that much money! maybe the west should have also reported how they built women only hospitals..but oh no that might make them sound good
wow, so besides being presented with evidence you just want to believe that nothing wrong was done there, with no proof. Really because you just don't want to believe it. Now i will advice you to find a person who escaped from Afghanistan to get a real life proof, and please don't argue with someone who has done this. Also do you know what was happening in Pakistan only a few months ago. Those same terrible people tried spreading terror in Pakistan, by beating women out on the street and they had no right to touch that woman. The stopped women from getting education in that area, they tried to say that getting women ID is haram and shouldn't be allowed. They killed many Pakistani cops for no reason at all.

and yes i am well aware of the hadith that states education is a must for both men and women [/QUOTE]
It's not only a hadith but also in the Quran. I just wanted to point it out.
Originally Posted by amani
and killing a person who stands up against shariah and tries to disrupt people who want shariah- well that would be treason against country and war against Allah. so killing such a person? being bad?
No one is trying to fight Shariah. Besides shariah is made up name by people of today's world and those terrible people you're trying to defend added their own crappy rules and laws to it that have nothing to do with islam. No one was trying to fight them for having that law, they were out killing people for no reason. People of Afghanistan and Sawat begged for freedom.[/QUOTE]


Originally Posted by amani

human rights also considers the punishment for zina ordered in the Quran to be a violation. would you like to comment on that?
I have no clue what you are referring to.
Reply

ieshia
09-26-2009, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Najm
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Western culture IS filthy. Im glad you recognise, yet you prepared to "defend" this as their way of life. And then your saying we should change oursselves so we can change them.

So how should we go about telling the west the issues i have said is wrong( i.e adultery/alcohol)? Since your suggesting "we dont say anything", since that would increase their hatred towards us. What/How should we do it?

Finally you speak about not insulting etc etc, but you were more than happy to insult one of our sisters on this very forum with the kind of brainless comments we expect from the non-muslims. Am i seeing double standards?

Regarding terrorism, i suggest you watch this very powerful lecture by Dr Zakir Naik in full....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHBJmQIz7g

FiAmaaniAllah
there are many things wrong with what you just said but i don't have the time for a good reply. The only thing i will like to point out to you quick is, the OP and what Islam tells us to do many times is tolerance. He is saying that we need to be patient and have tolerance of what others do.
Reply

Najm
09-26-2009, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by ieshia
there are many things wrong with what you just said but i don't have the time for a good reply. The only thing i will like to point out to you quick is, the OP and what Islam tells us to do many times is tolerance. He is saying that we need to be patient and have tolerance of what others do.
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Having read my post again, the only thing i probably said "wrong" is.... western culture is filthy. I was generalizing and using the term to describe the examples in the thread.

And in bold, the OP doesnt say that, or i should say i didnt understand like that, not even now. He is saying to change "ourselves" for their sake.

And i do agree with what is written in Bold.

Please do correct me.

FiAmaaniAllah
Reply

S_87
09-26-2009, 05:08 PM
wow, so besides being presented with evidence you just want to believe that nothing wrong was done there, with no proof. Really because you just don't want to believe it. Now i will advice you to find a person who escaped from Afghanistan to get a real life proof, and please don't argue with someone who has done this. Also do you know what was happening in Pakistan only a few months ago. Those same terrible people tried spreading terror in Pakistan, by beating women out on the street and they had no right to touch that woman. The stopped women from getting education in that area, they tried to say that getting women ID is haram and shouldn't be allowed. They killed many Pakistani cops for no reason at all.
i have no proof as to what wrong was done there or not-true. BUT what 'proof' i have of the wrong done there are from people who are there killing the people on their own soil. so excuse me for not wanting to take was propaganda and believe it.
and as for asking a person who escaped afghanistan, i would prefer to ask a person who lives in afghanistan and woke up in the morning to see air bombs had destroyed their whole village and killed much of their family.

It's not only a hadith but also in the Quran. I just wanted to point it out
.
which ayah in particular are u referring to

No one is trying to fight Shariah. Besides shariah is made up name by people of today's world and those terrible people you're trying to defend added their own crappy rules and laws to it that have nothing to do with islam. No one was trying to fight them for having that law, they were out killing people for no reason. People of Afghanistan and Sawat begged for freedom
they started building the country till amreeka started blitzing it in search of obl.(and before u ask my opinion of him- i dont know who he is/if hes done whats been put to his and whether hes even alive or not so no opinion) yes they were fighting against the warlords and poppy seed trade as well as the northern alliance shias who didnt like their rule.

I have no clue what you are referring to.
you were speaking of human rights violations
Reply

ieshia
09-26-2009, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by amani
i have no proof as to what wrong was done there or not-true. BUT what 'proof' i have of the wrong done there are from people who are there killing the people on their own soil. so excuse me for not wanting to take was propaganda and believe it.
and as for asking a person who escaped afghanistan, i would prefer to ask a person who lives in afghanistan and woke up in the morning to see air bombs had destroyed their whole village and killed much of their family.
Dude the people of United States were killed brutally as well by people living in Afghanistan. Now war in Iraq is not fair and that is completely wrong but in Afghanistan is justified and better for the world's sake. The person from
Afghanistan is the person who had relatives die but was more upset by the way the talibans had treated them(a husband and wife couple). You haven't spoken to anyone there or from there okay! Most of the civilians there hate Taliban and don't have such hate for the U.S army. Why would Pakistan have a propaganda about this... what do they have to gain? Pakistanis were simply killed by and discriminated against by your beloved Talibans. There is clear proof to that, with videos, people, evidence of their weapons and rules. You just rather look pass that and believe what ever you want to believe. You refuse to believe anything the taliban did wrong and will even believe a simple rumor that goes against the U.S troops to be the truth.

.
Originally Posted by amani
which ayah in particular are u referring to
I will search for it later because my other computer with the quran's translation is turned off at the moment but did do a quick search and found this, sort of similar thing. It was mentioned several times in the quran but i will post it all later..

"This is why the people who truly reverence GOD are those who are knowledgeable. GOD is Almighty, Forgiving." Quran 35:28

Meaning: the people who truly have respect and fear of god are those who are educated/knowledgeable.


Originally Posted by amani
they started building the country till amreeka started blitzing it in search of obl.(and before u ask my opinion of him- i dont know who he is/if hes done whats been put to his and whether hes even alive or not so no opinion) yes they were fighting against the warlords and poppy seed trade as well as the northern alliance shias who didnt like their rule.
Who are you speaking off? Do you think we went to Afghanistan without any reason?
Reply

Thinker
09-26-2009, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by amani
whatd the taliban do except defend their country? and who are you to say their acts is a sin?
Defending their country – see below - all the dead and injured were Pakistanis?

And the guy that drove the car believes that he will be given the rewards prescribed for martyrs!!

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...wVTmAD9AV38900

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Two suicide attacks killed 16 people and wounded more than 150 in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, showing Taliban militants are still able to strike despite heightened military operations and the slaying of their leader last month.
A Taliban spokesman called The Associated Press after the first bombing outside a police station to claim responsibility and warn of more blasts. He claimed the militants had been holding back on attacks but that any such "pause" was now over.
Reply

ieshia
09-26-2009, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Defending their country – see below - all the dead and injured were Pakistanis?

And the guy that drove the car believes that he will be given the rewards prescribed for martyrs!!

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...wVTmAD9AV38900

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Two suicide attacks killed 16 people and wounded more than 150 in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, showing Taliban militants are still able to strike despite heightened military operations and the slaying of their leader last month.
A Taliban spokesman called The Associated Press after the first bombing outside a police station to claim responsibility and warn of more blasts. He claimed the militants had been holding back on attacks but that any such "pause" was now over.
AMANI-
This is only one example that Thinker posted and it's a small lost compared so many other brutal deaths of innocent people caused by the Taliban.
Reply

S_87
09-26-2009, 08:01 PM
Dude the people of United States were killed brutally as well by people living in Afghanistan. Now war in Iraq is not fair and that is completely wrong but in Afghanistan is justified and better for the world's sake
in ur eyes maybe but i dont support terrorism so i dont see big bullies ruining a country based on no actual evidence to be better for the worlds sake.

The person from Afghanistan is the person who had relatives die but was more upset by the way the talibans had treated them(a husband and wife couple). You haven't spoken to anyone there or from there okay!
neither have you spoken to those in afghanistan who support the taliban and think they are good for the country. theres a reason why they are all around the country and fighting-they have support.

Most of the civilians there hate Taliban and don't have such hate for the U.S army.
nope they dont hate america for bombing them. just like many who woke up stopped being civilians and decided to fight for their country.

Why would Pakistan have a propaganda about this... what do they have to gain?
ALOT

Pakistanis were simply killed by and discriminated against by your beloved Talibans. There is clear proof to that, with videos, people, evidence of their weapons and rules. You just rather look pass that and believe what ever you want to believe. You refuse to believe anything the taliban did wrong and will even believe a simple rumor that goes against the U.S troops to be the truth.
i dont claim the taliban rule was perfect. nowhere have i said they didnt make any mistakes. However, i do think they are in their rights to defend their coutry against invaders- would you not do the same? i think the propaganda is a big weapon in war-do you not agree? and i dont think shariah law is wrong-are we in agreement?

I will search for it later because my other computer with the quran's translation is turned off at the moment but did do a quick search and found this, sort of similar thing. It was mentioned several times in the quran but i will post it all later..

"This is why the people who truly reverence GOD are those who are knowledgeable. GOD is Almighty, Forgiving." Quran 35:28

Meaning: the people who truly have respect and fear of god are those who are educated/knowledgeable.
this is knowledge in Allah and the Power and greatness of Allah and the aqeedah that muslims hold in general which im sure the taliban did not stop people from learning as you said:

Let's see not allowing women to get an education(when in the quran it says we are all to get an education
Who are you speaking off? Do you think we went to Afghanistan without any reason?
i think 11/9 was created so they could get into afghanistan. the majority of these so called bombers were from saudi arabia, it would have made more sense to go there. but no, they went into afghanistan for a reason.
Reply

S_87
09-26-2009, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Defending their country – see below - all the dead and injured were Pakistanis?

And the guy that drove the car believes that he will be given the rewards prescribed for martyrs!!

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...wVTmAD9AV38900

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Two suicide attacks killed 16 people and wounded more than 150 in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, showing Taliban militants are still able to strike despite heightened military operations and the slaying of their leader last month.
A Taliban spokesman called The Associated Press after the first bombing outside a police station to claim responsibility and warn of more blasts. He claimed the militants had been holding back on attacks but that any such "pause" was now over.
now thinker this is where it gets complicated and i ask, what exactly makes a person or people 'the taliban'? is it that they oppose the us? they have a big beard? they shout death to america/israel?
i do not support terrorist attacks against civilians in general -you wont see me cheering for 11/9,7/7 and even blasts in pakistan against civilians. or anywhere else for that matter? however it doesnt mean i think people like those in afghanistan and iraq and palestine dont have the right to stand up and fight who the terrorists are to them.
Reply

ieshia
09-26-2009, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by amani
in ur eyes maybe but i dont support terrorism so i dont see big bullies ruining a country based on no actual evidence to be better for the worlds sake.


neither have you spoken to those in afghanistan who support the taliban and think they are good for the country. theres a reason why they are all around the country and fighting-they have support.


nope they dont hate america for bombing them. just like many who woke up stopped being civilians and decided to fight for their country.


ALOT


i dont claim the taliban rule was perfect. nowhere have i said they didnt make any mistakes. However, i do think they are in their rights to defend their coutry against invaders- would you not do the same? i think the propaganda is a big weapon in war-do you not agree? and i dont think shariah law is wrong-are we in agreement?



this is knowledge in Allah and the Power and greatness of Allah and the aqeedah that muslims hold in general which im sure the taliban did not stop people from learning as you said:




i think 11/9 was created so they could get into afghanistan. the majority of these so called bombers were from saudi arabia, it would have made more sense to go there. but no, they went into afghanistan for a reason.
There is no point in arguing with you because your intellectual level nor your knowledge is not par to someone who can talk with logic rather than speaking from your feeling.
I will try one more time.
I can not believe that you just said since there are terrorist all around the world and they have support so they must be right. Firstly most of their support comes from gangsters, poor people who they influence into being terrorist for money and other uneducated people who can easily be manipulated. They have money because Afghanistan is one of the biggest drug exporting country and we all know how much business drug dealers make. They already had weapons that were giving to them by the U.S to fight Russia and they make their own weapons. Also I said i know a couple from Afghanistan who have first person insight on how the people of Afghanistan were treated and that was the reason they ran out of their country to seek freedom. Also with your logic, Christianity should be the better religion because there are more supporter of the Christian religion.

People of Afghanistan were not free as it was, they were taken over by the Taliban. They wanted freedom, they wanted Democracy! Why are they trying to change the rules to their liking now from what the Taliban had? The people of afghanistan do not like Taliban and they are not the same. Most people of one country never like the dictators!

[39:9] Is it not better to be one of those who meditate in the night, prostrating and staying up, being aware of the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of their Lord? Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
Reply

ieshia
09-26-2009, 08:30 PM
Amani- Sister you should watch the documentary on the attack on Bombay. I will try to find the link for you to watch online, but it was the sickest thing ever. I know it's not exactly the same thing but it should give you an idea about the logic and way of thinking these terrorists have.
Reply

S_87
09-26-2009, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by ieshia
There is no point in arguing with you because your intellectual level nor your knowledge is not par to someone who can talk with logic rather than speaking from your feeling.
Thank you. i accept that you are a well informed person on Afghanistan and i am ignorant and therefore have to right to think twice before believing every thing uncle sam tells me.

I can not believe that you just said since there are terrorist all around the world and they have support so they must be right.
i didnt say that neither did i say i supported terrorism. Read my words.

Firstly most of their support comes from gangsters, poor people who they influence into being terrorist for money and other uneducated people who can easily be manipulated.
i disagree. Truth stands clear from falsehood. Indeed when Muhammed :arabic5: brought islam to the people it was the 'poor uneducated' people who were accepting and the rich who were saying they are only accepting for that same reason. and no i dont think their support comes from gangsters. what makes you support the US? what makes them the good guys? what makes them legit in ur eyes? im genuinely interested in this answer.

They have money because Afghanistan is one of the biggest drug exporting country and we all know how much business drug dealers make
something even the west admitted that under taliban rule it was being handled and quite well at that. and after the invasion it began booming again. and why the surprise? strict 'human rights violating' punishments were given out to drug dealers.


They already had weapons that were giving to them by the U.S to fight Russia and they make their own weapons.
yeh so whats wrong with that?

Also I said i know a couple from Afghanistan who have first person insight on how the people of Afghanistan were treated and that was the reason they ran out of their country to seek freedom.
i dont claim that every single person in afghanistan supports the taliban

Also with your logic, Christianity should be the better religion because there are more supporter of the Christian religion.
what logic is that?

People of Afghanistan were not free as it was, they were taken over by the Taliban. They wanted freedom, they wanted Democracy!
are you a muslim? and if so..what kind of democracy are u speaking of?

Why are they trying to change the rules to their liking now from what the Taliban had?
your own western source:


The people of afghanistan do not like Taliban and they are not the same. Most people of one country never like the dictators!
refer to map and how taliban have so much support if the people are hating them? just a handful of people are that powerful that they can control that much with no support?

[39:9] Is it not better to be one of those who meditate in the night, prostrating and staying up, being aware of the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of their Lord? Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
indeed is a believer who knows/fears and loves his Rub equal to a disbeliever who doesnt?


Amani- Sister you should watch the documentary on the attack on Bombay. I will try to find the link for you to watch online, but it was the sickest thing ever. I know it's not exactly the same thing but it should give you an idea about the logic and way of thinking these terrorists have
.
are we talking about random acts of terrorism worldwide which i have said i dont support or are we talking about people (likethe taliban) being able to defend their country against invaders?
Reply

جوري
09-26-2009, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by ieshia
Dude the people of United States were killed brutally as well by people living in Afghanistan.
Do you represent ALL the people of Afghanistan?
let's speak for the 99.999999 that you don't represent or leave it all aside to address common sense? If you occupy other people's country's for whatever reasons you best be ready to lose your head/limb or life and more, not just by army folks, untrained militia but also the common every day folks!

There is no justification for the invasion of Afghanistan save the obvious to the rest of us.. however many traitors exist within and without and they seem to get the most attention!

all the best!
Reply

جوري
09-26-2009, 11:16 PM
As for a real look at the taliban from someone who has escaped..

well let's see whose opinion should we be consumed by? a mysterious person who alleges escape? or a British journalist who was helped captive? (gangster, poor, and undereducated?)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3673730.stm


all the best
Reply

ieshia
09-27-2009, 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Do you represent ALL the people of Afghanistan?
let's speak for the 99.999999 that you don't represent or leave it all aside to address common sense? If you occupy other people's country's for whatever reasons you best be ready to lose your head/limb or life and more, not just by army folks, untrained militia but also the common every day folks!

There is no justification for the invasion of Afghanistan save the obvious to the rest of us.. however many traitors exist within and without and they seem to get the most attention!

all the best!
You did not understand what i meant. Did you read what i was replying to when i said that?
I meant innocent people in the united states were killed by a few terrorists hiding in Afghanistan(and that is why people had to be sent to Afghanistan to take care of those people who did evil, which may also be considered as self defense like someone mentioned earlier in this thread). I was not talking about the military that's in Afghanistan or anything, and they weren't really hurt by afghani civilians but actually by the gangs in Afghan.

Please don't take one little sentence or fragment from what i say and make it sound completely different. That is exactly what people do when they try to demean Quran and take things out of context.
Reply

جوري
09-27-2009, 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by ieshia
You did not understand what i meant. Did you read what i was replying to when i said that?
Pls spare me the platitudes for intros.
I meant innocent people in the united states were killed by a few terrorists hiding in Afghanistan(and that is why people had to be sent to Afghanistan to take care of those people who did evil, which may also be considered as self defense like someone mentioned earlier in this thread). I was not talking about the military that's in Afghanistan or anything, and they weren't really hurt by afghani civilians but actually by the gangs in Afghan.
Casualties of wars.. hardly a reason to send an already war torn country into further turmoil. Your ratiocination as to 'why people are sent there' are as sophomoric and ill researched as the conclusion of the OP that if we coax 'westerners' with some buttered up words, they'd lay off making toons about the prophet and putting Quranic verses on public toilets and cease their attack on Islam which is age old from Islam's very inception!

Please don't take one little sentence or fragment from what i say and make it sound completely different. That is exactly what people do when they try to demean Quran and take things out of context.
That is rather amusing from someone who insinuated herself in the middle of the thread to tell us 'how it is', bringing the Quran into this is as much of a non-sequitur as bringing the black-water scandal in a thread about the 23 most common strains of pneumococcus..

It is a public forum, if you can't handle the replies, then don't engage in a topic!

all the best
Reply

ieshia
09-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
As for a real look at the taliban from someone who has escaped..

well let's see whose opinion should we be consumed by? a mysterious person who alleges escape? or a British journalist who was helped captive? (gangster, poor, and undereducated?)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3673730.stm


all the best
Summary of the article:
A woman went to Afghanistan as a journalist
She was exposed and of course they had to lock her up for a few days and find out if she's a harmless journalist or a spy.
They found out she's harmless
While she was locked up, the men did not want her to change in front of them, or see her undergarments.
Once she was back in her country she just kind of decided to actually do some research about Islam because she had been doing stories about the muslim countries.
After she read about Islam she realized that Islam was such a good religion, but women in muslim countries are oppressed because she has experienced this while she was visiting the muslim world during her work but she realized that is only due to culture o those countries but not the religion Islam. She realized how Islam is really a good religion after doing her own research out of curiosity and decided to convert.


hmm did you ever become a Taliban. No! I double checked.
Reply

جوري
09-27-2009, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by ieshia
Summary of the article:
A woman went to Afghanistan as a journalist
She was exposed and of course they had to lock her up for a few days and find out if she's a harmless journalist or a spy.
They found out she's harmless
While she was locked up, the men did not want her to change in front of them, or see her undergarments.
Once she was back in her country she just kind of decided to actually do some research about Islam because she had been doing stories about the muslim countries.
After she read about Islam she realized that Islam was such a good religion, but women in muslim countries are oppressed because she has experienced this while she was visiting the muslim world during her work but she realized that is only due to culture o those countries but not the religion Islam. She realized how Islam is really a good religion after doing her own research out of curiosity and decided to convert.


hmm did you ever become a Taliban. No! I double checked.
Again, you tickle me.. what exactly is your point? I am not the expert on the Taliban but you are? I am posing you a perfectly legitimate question, why should anyone here assume your opinion which seems to be highly influenced by western sentiment override anyone else's especially one who was there in their captivity? On the lowest common denominator, she is an actual journalist who can and has given evidence of her experience.. how can we prove that you have in fact escaped them and not bubbah from Ozark chinquapin coming to sow the seeds of discord?

all the best!
Reply

ieshia
09-27-2009, 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Pls spare me the platitudes for intros.
Casualties of wars.. hardly a reason to send an already war torn country into further turmoil. Your ratiocination as to 'why people are sent there' are as sophomoric and ill researched as the conclusion of the OP that if we coax 'westerners' with some buttered up words, they'd lay off making toons about the prophet and putting Quranic verses on public toilets and cease their attack on Islam which is age old from Islam's very inception!
Who treats Islamic text with such disrespect? Wow what a terrible stereotype based on nothing because it really doesn't happen. It's just as rare as ALD. We didn't go there to hurt Afghanistan but to secure safety for the rest of the world. If we hadn't gone there, Taliban could, no actually would have spread far more and become an even bigger threat. They spread to Pakistan and we all know all the hell that broke lose after that. Would you like to see what happened in pakistan in all the neighboring countries, we went there to stop the terror from spreading. With the help of Pakistan their actions have been minimized.


That is rather amusing from someone who insinuated herself in the middle of the thread to tell us 'how it is', bringing the Quran into this is as much of a non-sequitur as bringing the black-water scandal in a thread about the 23 most common strains of pneumococcus..

It is a public forum, if you can't handle the replies, then don't engage in a topic!

all the best[/QUOTE]

Yes it's a public forum but of course i will call you out if you start to lie or start to misuse my words. How will you feel if took, "making toons about the prophet" and keep putting them all over these forums claiming that you are promoting this act.
Reply

جوري
09-27-2009, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by ieshia
Who treats Islamic text with such disrespect?
is one picture worthy of a thousand word?



Wow what a terrible stereotype based on nothing because it really doesn't happen.
See above, it is really nothing that a simple google search can't prove to you, unless you prefer to bury your head in the sand?
It's just as rare as ALD. We didn't go there to hurt Afghanistan but to secure safety for the rest of the world.
What is ALD? Is there world safer? you have done some research and can support your theory? also who is 'we'?
If we hadn't gone there, Taliban could, no actually would have spread far more and become an even bigger threat.
bigger threat to whom? again can you back your statement that if 'we' hadn't gone there they would have spread far and wide?

They spread to Pakistan and we all know all the hell that broke lose after that. Would you like to see what happened in pakistan in all the neighboring countries, we went there to stop the terror from spreading. With the help of Pakistan their actions have been minimized.
You sound like a ranting lunatic..



Yes it's a public forum but of course i will call you out if you start to lie or start to misuse my words. How will you feel if took, "making toons about the prophet" and keep putting them all over these forums claiming that you are promoting this act.
What lie have I started? so far I have supported the one thing I asserted directly from the BBC.. other than that, I have no idea what your last statement means it is incomprehensible.. there is more to a debate than putting words together!


all the best
Reply

ieshia
09-27-2009, 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Again, you tickle me.. what exactly is your point? I am not the expert on the Taliban but you are? I am posing you a perfectly legitimate question, why should anyone here assume your opinion which seems to be highly influenced by western sentiment override anyone else's especially one who was there in their captivity? On the lowest common denominator, she is an actual journalist who can and has given evidence of her experience.. how can we prove that you have in fact escaped them and not bubbah from Ozark chinquapin coming to sow the seeds of discord?

all the best!
She never promoted the actions of Taliban or call their intentions good. She actually said those people oppress their women in those countries. The article is about someone who was curious about Islam because she was doing a project on the muslim countries so decided to learn about the religion those people follow and after she studied well she realized how great the religion was and converted.


OMG wow, i just typed in the word and the first article that came up says everything i said. Here you can see what actually happens there from someone who was forced into becoming a taliban. Please do read the entire article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ed-people.html
Reply

ieshia
09-27-2009, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
is one picture worthy of a thousand word?




See above, it is really nothing that a simple google search can't prove to you, unless you prefer to bury your head in the sand?

What is ALD? Is there world safer? you have done some research and can support your theory? also who is 'we'?

bigger threat to whom? again can you back your statement that if 'we' hadn't gone there they would have spread far and wide?



You sound like a ranting lunatic..





What lie have I started? so far I have supported the one thing I asserted directly from the BBC.. other than that, I have no idea what your last statement means it is incomprehensible.. there is more to a debate than putting words together!


all the best
Like is said it is RARE. Kind of like something that happened once. I didn't way it never happened i said it is so rare that you can't say that is what the people of the west do. Someone can post pictures about muslims burning churches, bibles, hindu text, and people of other religion that does not mean people of Islam do that. It doesn't happen all the time.
Alright i will say U.S instead of "we" but that is what i was referring to.

Yes when i tried to give an example of what terror is caused by taliban spreading, you just call me a ranting lunatic.
Reply

جوري
09-27-2009, 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by ieshia
She never promoted the actions of Taliban or call their intentions good. She actually said those people oppress their women in those countries. The article is about someone who was curious about Islam because she was doing a project on the muslim countries so decided to learn about the religion those people follow and after she studied well she realized how great the religion was and converted.
Didn't promote, didn't speak out against, perhaps the point here to draw is to not generalize and demonize an entire group of people based on an infamous two of the bunch? And, actually that wasn't how she became Muslim, I can tell you are not familiar with anything at all about her, she was originally married to a Muslim and had a daughter with him and never converted then.. obviously something happened in Afghanistan that sparked interest that wasn't ignited while married to a Muslim.. Do refrain from engaging in a topic (i.e her life) without being familiar with the very rudiments of it!


OMG wow, i just typed in the word and the first article that came up says everything i said. Here you can see what actually happens there from someone who was forced into becoming a taliban. Please do read the entire article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ed-people.html
Again, what is your point? I don't have to read telegraph UK to see how the Taliban's are demonized .. Isn't that the whole point of the justifications of these wars to begin with?

Ohmigawd.. two American soldiers convert to Islam in Afghanistan

http://www.eurasianet.org/insight/072707af2.shtml

I don't mind having at it tit for tat all day, but hopefully if you can't see where you are full of it, others on board can!

all the best!
Reply

جوري
09-27-2009, 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by ieshia
Like is said it is RARE.Kind of like something that happened once. I didn't way it never happened i said it is so rare that you can't say that is what the people of the west do. Someone can post pictures about muslims burning churches, bibles, hindu text, and people of other religion that does not mean people of Islam do that. It doesn't happen all the time.
Who are you to say it is rare? you are an epidemiologist and have taken a formal survey? further do you understand what a simile is?
Alright i will say U.S instead of "we" but that is what i was referring to.
So we can generalize in this case, but make other cases into rarity purely on your whim?
Yes when i tried to give an example of what terror is caused by taliban spreading, you just call me a ranting lunatic.
And again, I question why it is that your opinion is solid and not some propagandist bull ****?

all the best
Reply

ChOcCi
09-27-2009, 04:36 AM
Alright, Amanu, skye, forget about the minor details about what Taliban did.

They freed Afganistan from the hands of the Russians, so they did a good thing. I admit.

They oppressed the people of Afganistan in an un-Islamic way, they KLLED hazarahs all over the country. Reduced the rights of women in an UN-ISLAMIC way, KILLED / Held captive, anyone who didnt have a beard and killed hundreds of innocent people throughout Afgan for even the SLIGHTEST of reasons. Now you two tell me, is all that right or wrong.

And its a request from me to all of you, PLEASE do keep this debate respectful and flame-less. There is no need for aggression as long as everyone here decides to keep an open mind.

Originally Posted by Najm
AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Western culture IS filthy. Im glad you recognise, yet you prepared to "defend" this as their way of life. And then your saying we should change oursselves so we can change them.

So how should we go about telling the west the issues i have said is wrong( i.e adultery/alcohol)? Since your suggesting "we dont say anything", since that would increase their hatred towards us. What/How should we do it?

Finally you speak about not insulting etc etc, but you were more than happy to insult one of our sisters on this very forum with the kind of brainless comments we expect from the non-muslims. Am i seeing double standards?

Regarding terrorism, i suggest you watch this very powerful lecture by Dr Zakir Naik in full....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHBJmQIz7g

FiAmaaniAllah
Well, my post was abit too aggressive, but at that time, I did not have the "edit" option so I couldnt make it abit more decent.. But your right, that was my bad.

Anyways, what you are not understanding is that I am not saying that we should change for their sake or we should submit to their will.

I am saying that when we try to make them understand that they are wrong, we should do it in a respectful manner, NOT a hateful manner.

For example, I seemed to have double standards here right? But you RESPECTFULLY approached me and made me realize the situation and I am in and because of the way you made me understand this, I am in full agreement with you. But what our muslim sister there was doing, was FLAMING the west demeaning them and thats what really annoyed me so I unintentionally got abit aggressive in my response and I even apologized for that.

See, now if you flamed me and demeaned me in your post about my double standards, chances are that I would not have learned anything and flamed you back. And I am sure, I managed to make ALOT of you in these forums abit angry at me so I KNOW that you had to control some amount of anger / hatred towards me in order to make your post nice and respectful. Thats what we dont give to the westerns. Respect. When they flame us, (similar to what I sometimes do) we flame them back and THIS has to change. And we wont do this for THEIR sake, we will do this for Allah's sake as if we do this, it will be easier for them to see the right path and it would help Islam in the long run. And I for one am willing to make this change and I would like you guys to do so too.

So the bottomline of all my banter? Let us show the westerns some RESPECT instead of returning their insults with more insults for once as it will not only reduce the number of enemies against Islam, it will also open up a path for the people of other religions to open their minds to Islam and understand what a beautiful religion we have. And we will do this for Allah's (swt) sake and Islams sake.

I have no idea why you guys are actually opposing this in the first place.. dont you WANT them to give Islam a chance? Like I said, it seems to me that you guys would rather stoop down to their level and criticize them instead of wanting to show them the right path.

P.S I didnt say adultery and drugs are not true. I stated that the fact that westerns dont wash their hands after using the toilet is not true. There are cases, but only immigrants from south east asia are usually talked about for doing such things... Normally, these toilet etiquette are taught quite well enough there.
Reply

Rasema
09-27-2009, 04:49 AM
:sl:

Sweetness just makes you suffer.
They will never stop mocking Islam.

:wa:
Reply

ChOcCi
09-27-2009, 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by Rasema
:sl:

Sweetness just makes you suffer.
They will never stop mocking Islam.

:wa:
Rasema, I know ALOT of you feel this way as I know its not easy being poked and oppressed all the time by the non-believers. But we have to try. Have you heard of the story about the old lady who put thorns in front of Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) walk way way and hurt him?

Well, she used to do it everyday or something but Muhammad (pbuh) never showed her any disrespect or told her any harsh words. One day, that old lady fell VERY sick and when Muhammad (pbuh) learned of this, he himself went over to her house and took care of her and helped her recover and from that moment onwards, that lady completely stopped doing anything bad against Muhammad (pbuh) and im not sure about it, but I believe she probably converted into a Muslim later on.


These acts of kindness is what will prevail in the end. The time of the sword is gone and this is the age of diplomacy and to be honest, if we dont follow in Muhammad's (pbuh) path, we wont be able to accomplish much.

I hope this helps :)
Reply

Rasema
09-27-2009, 05:06 AM
Rasema, I know ALOT of you feel this way as I know its not easy being poked and oppressed all the time by the non-believers. But we have to try. Have you heard of the story about the old lady who put thorns in front of Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) walk way way and hurt him?
Brother, I do appreciate that you are doing this for Islam. I have been for a quite time. Yes, we should be polite to pleople but what I'm against is"kiss ass" sorry I don't know a better word.

I do think that we should defend Islam. But some people misrepresent it by preaching ONLY the peaceful Islam.

I hope you know what I mean.
Reply

ChOcCi
09-27-2009, 05:18 AM
Yes, as Muslim it is our DUTY to defend Islam and your turning your back on your religion if you dont do this, but we can chose not to retaliate cant we?

For example: In high school when bullies pick on "losers" and make fun of them, they can go on for a month, two months, maybe even three months. But if the "loser" NEVER says anything harshly to them and always stays respectful towards them, the bullies will eventually lose interest in bullying the kid as there is no fun in it anymore and they would leave.

Thing is, they are acting like bullies, but if we just use our heads to respond to them RESPECTFULLY rather than using our heart just to attack them back in the same way, it wont be helping anyone out in the end.

If a husband and a wife are having a dispute over something and both of them are VERY stubborn. Chances are, several months may pass and they still will refuse to talk to each other until one apologizes. And in the end, the marriage ends in disaster. Now even if both the wife was at fault, the husband was innocent (the wife doesnt want to understand this), just to save the marriage, the Husband can use his head to say sorry to his wife even though his feelings are telling him to do the opposite. In the end when the wife calms down, if the Husband sits down and has a matured and respectful discussion about what has happened the wife will understand (as she is calmed down now) and then chances are that she will apologize for her mistake.

Thats what we must do. Use our head and withdraw from the fight so that they will calm down and then we must slowly and nicely make them understand which way is the right path.


All it will do is anger us from within, but if we refrain from retaliating against them, in the end, it is Islam who will win.
Reply

Rasema
09-27-2009, 05:29 AM
I don't desire to change the topic but I will reply.

Yes, as Muslim it is our DUTY to defend Islam and your turning your back on your religion if you dont do this, but we can chose not to retaliate cant we?
I defent Islam in a bitter way.Only when you approach in a disrespectful and ignorant manner.

For example: In high school when bullies pick on "losers" and make fun of them, they can go on for a month, two months, maybe even three months. But if the "loser" NEVER says anything harshly to them and always stays respectful towards them, the bullies will eventually lose interest in bullying the kid as there is no fun in it anymore and they would leave.
It's actually the opposite. They bully him because they're not afraid of him. As someone who attends high school, I know that the sweet way just does this: but this but that,,,and they go on. For example, when I started wearing the hijab that is what they would do. When I reply to them firmly:WE COVER BECAUSE IT IS A COMMAND IN THE QUR'AN AND WE FOLLOW THOSE COMMANDS O AND WHEN ALLAH COMMANDS WE DON'T QUESTION WE JUST FOLLOW. This shuts them up. But, If I start to pretend of being a scholar, a student I should say, they will just start to question util we get into an argument and so on...


If a husband and a wife are having a dispute over something and both of them are VERY stubborn. Chances are, several months may pass and they still will refuse to talk to each other until one apologizes. And in the end, the marriage ends in disaster. Now even if both the wife was at fault, the husband was innocent (the wife doesnt want to understand this), just to save the marriage, the Husband can use his head to say sorry to his wife even though his feelings are telling him to do the opposite. In the end when the wife calms down, if the Husband sits down and has a matured and respectful discussion about what has happened the wife will understand (as she is calmed down now) and then chances are that she will apologize for her mistake.
You can't compare our relations of a husband and a wife to our relations with strangers who are kaffirs.
Reply

ChOcCi
09-27-2009, 05:41 AM
Originally Posted by Rasema
I don't desire to change the topic but I will reply.



I defent Islam in a bitter way.Only when you approach in a disrespectful and ignorant manner.



It's actually the opposite. They bully him because they're not afraid of him. As someone who attenda high schoo,l I know that the sweet way just does this: but this but that,,,and they go on. For example, when I started wearing the hijab that is what they would do. When I reply to them firmly:WE COVER BECAUSE IT IS A COMMAND IN THE qUR'AN AND WE FOLLOW THOSE COMMANDS O AND WHEN ALLAH COMMANDS WE DON'T QUESTION WE JUST FOLLOW. This shuts them up. But, If I start to pretend of being a scholar, a student I should say, they will just start to question util we get into an argument and so on...




You can't compare relations of a husband and a wife to our relations with strangers who are kaffirs.
*sigh*
I actually have been bullied like mad when I was younger at school and BELIEVE me, I know more about being bullied more than quite a lot of people.

My mom even FORCED me to go to a psychologist and we had long sessions about my problem at school. I know what works, what doesnt. If you display anger in response to their comments or if you fight back, they will get the kick out of it (i.e it is more fun when your opponent tries to fight back because no competition is no fun). Because I took the advice and remained friendly and respectful towards them, they learned to leave me alone and now after fighting for one and a half years or so, im actually enjoying quite a good social life in school now. Believe me, I know. My source? Go ask ANYONE who has been bullied before and had managed to come out of it. Kindness will prevail in the end.


And the relation between a husband and wife thing was just a way of showing you that using our head and showing them kindness in the end will cut it for us. They will see that we are good natured people and it is common knowledge that people dont pick on others who are respectful towards them.

This is why you see more people are against Christianity and Islam, than they are against a religion like Buddhism. Why? Because the Buddhists have made sure they avoid ALL sorts of harsh exchange of words with others. This is what we Muslims have failed to do. I know it isnt very nice to hear, but its the truth.
Reply

Rasema
09-27-2009, 05:45 AM
Ahhhh

Well, in my case, bitter works better.

I'm off to bed.
Reply

ChOcCi
09-27-2009, 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by Rasema
Ahhhh

Well, in my case, bitter works better.

I'm off to bed.
Bonds held together by respect are MUCH more powerful than bonds held together by fear.

If they respect you, they will genuinely want to help you. If they fear you, the MOMENT you lose your power over them, they will push you the ground and they will only help out of fear even though they dont want to.



Now, there are more non believers than there are Muslims so we are in no position to be "harsh" and make them fear us and EVEN if we do try and do this, we will come across as terrorists as we are trying to FORCE something upon them.

If we are kind, we shall gain the non-believers respect. They will understand that we dont mean to cause them harm and once they understand this, it will be easier for us to reach out to them and show them the light of Islam and they will willingly convert Inshallah.

We will only be doing this for Allah's (swt) sake by the way (for those who get itchy by the thought of being nice to a non-muslim).

Hope I am clear :)
Reply

S_87
09-27-2009, 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Thing is, they are acting like bullies,


.
exactly. and you know those people who respect the bullies? they ar either the bullies side kicks who are scared of them or the ones that are bullied
but the ones who shows the bully where they belong? the one who spits in the bullies face and tells him where to go and is able to defend himself better than the bully can attack?
Reply

ChOcCi
09-28-2009, 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by amani
exactly. and you know those people who respect the bullies? they ar either the bullies side kicks who are scared of them or the ones that are bullied
but the ones who shows the bully where they belong? the one who spits in the bullies face and tells him where to go and is able to defend himself better than the bully can attack?
wow, im sorry to have to get abit wrong sided again, but its attitudes like that which makes people think Muslims are violent..

All people can be shown respect, even if they are wrong or right.

Suppose a Church in Italy got a LARGE donation and when the mafia heard of this, they went to the Priest and told him that unless he gives up the money, they will murder his entire family. What will the priest do? Will he "spit in their faces and show them where they are" even though he believes that God will protect him nomatter what? No, even if he has the power to do so, he would not. Instead, he would kindly try to make them understand their mistake and he would respectfully ask them change their ways and chances are the mafia, out of counter respect for the pope, would leave the church alone. Now, Christian or not, most priests are good men and thats how good people should act.

Now, suppose you won a lottery and the maifa came to you and threatened you for the money.. Lets see how far you'd go by "spitting in their faces and showing them where they belong". :)


Now in both cases the "victims" arent scared of the "bully", but because of the way the priest behaved with the bullies, the priest was left alone, but the "spit in their faces" person wasnt very lucky unfortunately :(

Respect, kindness, theses are bigger virtues than violence, even if the latter was used to retaliate against someone else.

Im not saying we should not defend ourselves. But we should be careful with WHAT we attack them with because if we keep "spitting at each other's faces" we wont get ANYWHERE in this world.

Is this clear?
Reply

S_87
09-28-2009, 09:39 AM
[QUOTE=ChOcCi;1226000]wow, im sorry to have to get abit wrong sided again, but its attitudes like that which makes people think Muslims are violent..[/quote
muslims arent violent but jihad does exist....

Suppose a Church in Italy got a LARGE donation and when the mafia heard of this, they went to the Priest and told him that unless he gives up the money, they will murder his entire family. What will the priest do? Will he "spit in their faces and show them where they are" even though he believes that God will protect him nomatter what? No, even if he has the power to do so, he would not. Instead, he would kindly try to make them understand their mistake and he would respectfully ask them change their ways and chances are the mafia, out of counter respect for the pope, would leave the church alone. Now, Christian or not, most priests are good men and thats how good people should act.
i disagree. if the leader of the mafia had gone to the church in the first place chances are he wouldnt give a **** as to what the pope had to say... now ill turn th q around. someone says im gonna harm you and your people. do you respectfully beg them not to? ok youve asked them not to. but they still do. so do you continue to say no n o dont kill until they kill you? or do you fight back as a form of self defence?

Now, suppose you won a lottery and the maifa came to you and threatened you for the money.. Lets see how far you'd go by "spitting in their faces and showing them where they belong". :)
exactly. the bully seeks a victim. it is WEAK to be the victim and let the bully win is that not so? and the person who stands up to a bully is hero. its better to die on ones feet than on the knees begging...

Respect, kindness, theses are bigger virtues than violence, even if the latter was used to retaliate against someone else.
i dont deny that. however physical self defence is an option. if the person threatens your life and your country is being invaded and your people being killed, really what do you think the person should do? speak respectfully to people who bombed your entire village? they dont understand the meaning of respect.


i hope i made myself clear
Reply

ChOcCi
09-28-2009, 08:07 PM
[QUOTE=amani;1226087]
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
wow, im sorry to have to get abit wrong sided again, but its attitudes like that which makes people think Muslims are violent..[/quote
muslims arent violent but jihad does exist....


i disagree. if the leader of the mafia had gone to the church in the first place chances are he wouldnt give a **** as to what the pope had to say... now ill turn th q around. someone says im gonna harm you and your people. do you respectfully beg them not to? ok youve asked them not to. but they still do. so do you continue to say no n o dont kill until they kill you? or do you fight back as a form of self defence?


exactly. the bully seeks a victim. it is WEAK to be the victim and let the bully win is that not so? and the person who stands up to a bully is hero. its better to die on ones feet than on the knees begging...


i dont deny that. however physical self defence is an option. if the person threatens your life and your country is being invaded and your people being killed, really what do you think the person should do? speak respectfully to people who bombed your entire village? they dont understand the meaning of respect.


i hope i made myself clear
Either way, the priest would have higher chances of survival than the "spit on your face" person :)

hmm, so the way we BOTH described the bully (in this case happens to be the christians + jews), it seems that they are a much bigger force than the Muslims which is true in the real world right now.

So if they threaten to kill us, what would be the SMART thing to do? Be respectful and kindly ask them to settle it peacefully or "spit in their faces" and [s]become a hero? to who exactly?[/s] once again get displayed as terrorists by the media?

If we followed you, we would be controlled by our RAW emotions, and its obvious you're the type of person who would leap before you look. If you would simply use your head in this situation and to be honest, I do that a lot too myself, but I know that its not right. Being respectful and avoiding violence would be the right path to chose. Bloodshed is not glorified in Islam and add to that, the latter word is derived from the word "peace".

If you ask me, if I was outnumbered, out gunned, out everythinged like this, id actually chose to "beg on my knees" because a hurt pride doesnt give me the power to sacrifice the lives of all my people. Even if it kills my reputation and I dont come across as a hero, id still beg to save my people. What would you do? Be a "hero"?

Like I said, if you fight back, you might come across as a hero to your people, but your number of enemies will drastically increase. If you settle it diplomatically, you can cross a name out from your enemies list..

Brain or brawn, ill let you decide that one :)
Reply

S_87
09-28-2009, 09:15 PM
Either way, the priest would have higher chances of survival than the "spit on your face" person
Allahu alam, lets take the common school bully, the guy who spits in his face wont be bullied, the guy who hands over his pocket money will be.

hmm, so the way we BOTH described the bully (in this case happens to be the christians + jews), it seems that they are a much bigger force than the Muslims which is true in the real world right now.

So if they threaten to kill us, what would be the SMART thing to do? Be respectful and kindly ask them to settle it peacefully or "spit in their faces" and become a hero? to who exactly?

once again get displayed as terrorists by the media?
as muslims we are not in need of the media or even money. if muslims are gonna be threatened by others just because we are muslims then this is something we already know happened in the past. what did the salaf do? they fought and cast terror into the hearts of their enemies. they showed the enemies. they knew that had they kept quiet they would have been crushed by ants. and by them showing force, they put respect into the hearts of the same enemies that were attacking them. they bowed and feared none but Allah.

If we followed you, we would be controlled by our RAW emotions, and its obvious you're the type of person who would leap before you look. If you would simply use your head in this situation and to be honest, I do that a lot too myself, but I know that its not right. Being respectful and avoiding violence would be the right path to chose. Bloodshed is not glorified in Islam and add to that, the latter word is derived from the word "peace".
of course it would be ideal if there was no blood shed. but this world isnt ideal. people are dying as we speak. of course violence shouldnt be asked for. but if someone attacks you do you defend yourself yes or no?

If you ask me, if I was outnumbered, out gunned, out everythinged like this, id actually chose to "beg on my knees" because a hurt pride doesnt give me the power to sacrifice the lives of all my people. Even if it kills my reputation and I dont come across as a hero, id still beg to save my people. What would you do? Be a "hero"?
if youre fighting for your deen youre not fighting for yourself. the muslims in badr were not only out numbered by around 3 to 1 but also very ill equipped. but they had something far more powerful, trust and faith in Allah. who won?

again i ask you, if your town was attacked what would you do? the time for talking will obviously have gone.
Reply

Karl
09-29-2009, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by amani
Allahu alam, lets take the common school bully, the guy who spits in his face wont be bullied, the guy who hands over his pocket money will be.


as muslims we are not in need of the media or even money. if muslims are gonna be threatened by others just because we are muslims then this is something we already know happened in the past. what did the salaf do? they fought and cast terror into the hearts of their enemies. they showed the enemies. they knew that had they kept quiet they would have been crushed by ants. and by them showing force, they put respect into the hearts of the same enemies that were attacking them. they bowed and feared none but Allah.



of course it would be ideal if there was no blood shed. but this world isnt ideal. people are dying as we speak. of course violence shouldnt be asked for. but if someone attacks you do you defend yourself yes or no?


if youre fighting for your deen youre not fighting for yourself. the muslims in badr were not only out numbered by around 3 to 1 but also very ill equipped. but they had something far more powerful, trust and faith in Allah. who won?

again i ask you, if your town was attacked what would you do? the time for talking will obviously have gone.
Good post ...don't listen to the cowards... the only thing to fear is Allah and Allah hates wimps...you know the old saying "The meek shall inherit the earth"
simple meaning ...the weak will die and be put in the ground.
Never give up and never give in and if your gonna die, die with your boots on! The westerners hate Muslims 'cos they have guts. Don't sell out to those western brigans.:raging:
Reply

ChOcCi
09-29-2009, 01:30 PM
lol I become a coward by trying to solve our issues? MAJOR ones infact..

Amani, the person who hands over his pocket money will keep getting bullied, but the person who spits in the bullies faces will get beaten up to trash.

I know that your a perfectly good person at heart and you only want to do the right thing, but your problem is that you completely shut yourself out from anything that contradicts your beliefs and you dont want to listen.

We should not fear anyone but Allah, thats right. But that doesnt mean we should go sacrifice our own people just in order to satisfy our blazing desire for revenge.

Ever heard of Confucius? He was a great man was he not? What he taught, contradicts EVERY SINGLE thing you are saying.. Whose advice should we listen to then? Yours, or his?


So, if all the "other religion countries" starts a dispute with all the "muslim" countries, and suppose you were the leader of all of us, would you "spit in their faces" and go to war against them despite being ridiculously outnumbered or will you settle the matter peacefully with respectful words that will avoid any unnecessary bloodshed?

Yes, Allah is ALWAYS with us, but one thing you dont get is that Allah will help us when we have no choice let, but he wont come in and intervene if we are losing the war due to our own stupid mistake which was to chose to go into war against such odds in the first place when the war could have easily been avoided.

Look at Palestine. Why havent they crushed the Israelis yet? Please, do tell me.
Forget that, the way the jews are bullying Palestine, why in the hell are you not standing on the Palestine front lines "spitting on the Israelis faces"? Im willing to make the change and try and show the non believers with respect, which way is the right way. Are you willing to talk less and get yourself on the Palestine fronts and spit in the Israelis faces? I think not.

It seems to me, your only arguing here because you want to contradict me. Thats all because I have no idea why you would rate violence over kindness and respect. Just tell me, whats WRONG with what im trying to convey in my message? Im not asking you guys to "submit to their will" or to "kiss behinds". All I am asking is that you treat the western people with a little more respect and I promise you this, at one point or the other, respect is always returned to the person who gave it. Do this for Allah's sake as it will decrease our enemies and will help people open their minds to Islam. Seems to me that you guys care more about your emotions than helping Islam. Is that right?
Reply

GuestFellow
09-29-2009, 02:01 PM
I'm curious what are we arguing about? O_o
Reply

S_87
09-29-2009, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
lol I become a coward by trying to solve our issues? MAJOR ones infact..

Amani, the person who hands over his pocket money will keep getting bullied, but the person who spits in the bullies faces will get beaten up to trash.
not if he fights back.




We should not fear anyone but Allah, thats right. But that doesnt mean we should go sacrifice our own people just in order to satisfy our blazing desire for revenge.
whos spaking of revenge atm?
im talking about self defense. should a person have the right to defend themselves or not?

Ever heard of Confucius? He was a great man was he not? What he taught, contradicts EVERY SINGLE thing you are saying.. Whose advice should we listen to then? Yours, or his?
ever heard of Umar ibn Khattab or Khalid bin Waleed? their very names were a nightmare and a call of respect from their enemies.

So, if all the "other religion countries" starts a dispute with all the "muslim" countries, and suppose you were the leader of all of us, would you "spit in their faces" and go to war against them despite being ridiculously outnumbered or will you settle the matter peacefully with respectful words that will avoid any unnecessary bloodshed?
hypothetically speaking the *ideal* thing would be:
if they started a war with the muslims then they dont want to speak. they dont care what i would have to say. they want war. So i would enjoin the people to fear Allah, follow the Deen and i would tell the people that the people they are fighting with love death as they love life. and place my trust in Allah and hope for a miracle. Look at the taliban. loads of nations are against them, even some so called muslim nations. did that stop them? have they been defeated? have those nations with all their technology found one man? look at the battle of ahzab. the muslims suffered. they were betrayed by their allies. what happened? didnt Allah help them?

Yes, Allah is ALWAYS with us, but one thing you dont get is that Allah will help us when we have no choice let, but he wont come in and intervene if we are losing the war due to our own stupid mistake which was to chose to go into war against such odds in the first place when the war could have easily been avoided.
agreed. and i dont call for war. im saying people should have a right to defend themselves.


Look at Palestine. Why havent they crushed the Israelis yet? Please, do tell me.
the palestinian cause (should be) a muslim cause. Al Aqsa is for the muslims not for palestine. palestine is all of our cause. why are we losing? because we arent united on the Quran and Sunnah

Forget that, the way the jews are bullying Palestine, why in the hell are you not standing on the Palestine front lines "spitting on the Israelis faces"? Im willing to make the change and try and show the non believers with respect, which way is the right way. Are you willing to talk less and get yourself on the Palestine fronts and spit in the Israelis faces? I think not.
indeed, why arent we all supporting our brothers? truly Muhammed :arabic5: had said this would happen, with wahn in our hearts.

It seems to me, your only arguing here because you want to contradict me.
i couldnt care less about contradicting you or not. and could say the same to you :)

Thats all because I have no idea why you would rate violence over kindness and respect.
again i will say. i am not saying violence is the only thing. i am saying Self defense is legit.

Just tell me, whats WRONG with what im trying to convey in my message? Im not asking you guys to "submit to their will" or to "kiss behinds". All I am asking is that you treat the western people with a little more respect and I promise you this, at one point or the other, respect is always returned to the person who gave it. Do this for Allah's sake as it will decrease our enemies and will help people open their minds to Islam. Seems to me that you guys care more about your emotions than helping Islam. Is that right?
no it isnt right. i dont treat non muslims unrespectfully. HOWEVER if there are enemies of islam killing my brothers and sisters then im not gonna be their best friend. having said that just because for example, i hate the american govt, i dont hate american civilians. theres a difference.

now i ask you, wherever you live, if another country were to invade your country because they have a problem with your way of life, they bombed schools, killed children and raped women. what would YOU do? ask them nicely to stop?
Reply

ChOcCi
10-01-2009, 02:54 PM
not if he fights back.
Didnt we already decide on the fact that us Muslims are outnumbered? When outnumbered 3:1, the victim WILL lose if he tries to fight back.


whos spaking of revenge atm?
im talking about self defense. should a person have the right to defend themselves or not?
I NEVER SAID we should not defend ourselves. I said that there are many forms of defense but you probably never even heard of the term "verbal defense".

Tell me, if the christians insulted Muhammad (pbuh), would he insult back? If the Christians threw tomatoes at him, would he throw the tomatoes back? When the old lady put thorns on Muhammad's (pbuh) way, did he attack back? Instead, in all these cases, Muhammad (pbuh) would have made these offenders understand that they are doing wrong, with KIND RESPECTFUL words but the way your speaking, it seems that your against what Muhammad (pbuh) would have done.

If Muhammad always chose the wise way to trying to make them understand, why should we not try and achieve that sunnah by doing the same?

But if ALL fails, I do agree that we should take up arms to defend ourselves. But truth be told, we never took the time to make the christians understand. Communication was hard in those days, so people could not reach out to the entire world and thus even the smallest of things meant that nations would break out in war. But we have phones, internet, EVERYTHING in todays world. Why dont we use these gifts Allah has granted us and use them to spread the truth instead of creating a false image of Islam like what the Talibans seem to do.


now i ask you, wherever you live, if another country were to invade your country because they have a problem with your way of life, they bombed schools, killed children and raped women. what would YOU do? ask them nicely to stop?
YES, like Muhammad, I will try and be nice to them at first asking them to back off by trying to make them understand their mistake. If they refuse to listen, then I OBVIOUSLY will take up arms. But unlike you, i wont blindly go into war when there is an option of achieving peace.

by the way, the example you just gave, it was perfect example of your beloved Taliban.. You actually believe that Allah will support terrorists like them? Ah well, its not my place to say what Allah will or will not do, but what I know of Him, He will NOT support terrorists over innocents dying at their hands for no reason.

indeed, why arent we all supporting our brothers? truly Muhammed had said this would happen, with wahn in our hearts.
Then why are you sitting here on the internet all day? Go ahead, take up arms. Do you have the guts to back up your words about fighting back? Your brothers are being oppressed. Lets see if you truly meant what you said all this time and go to war (in your special own violent way :) ) against the Israelis.. Lets see if you can prove me wrong.
Reply

S_87
10-01-2009, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Didnt we already decide on the fact that us Muslims are outnumbered? When outnumbered 3:1, the victim WILL lose if he tries to fight back.
not necessarily. i gave you the badr example.




I NEVER SAID we should not defend ourselves. I said that there are many forms of defense but you probably never even heard of the term "verbal defense".
when someones killing you, youre gonna use words?

Tell me, if the christians insulted Muhammad (pbuh), would he insult back? If the Christians threw tomatoes at him, would he throw the tomatoes back? When the old lady put thorns on Muhammad's (pbuh) way, did he attack back? Instead, in all these cases, Muhammad (pbuh) would have made these offenders understand that they are doing wrong, with KIND RESPECTFUL words but the way your speaking, it seems that your against what Muhammad (pbuh) would have done.
When the people of makkah said they are gathering an army against him what did he do when talks were done? he :arabic5: prepared and looked at war strategies because theres a time for talking and theres a time when talking is just in vain.

If Muhammad always chose the wise way to trying to make them understand, why should we not try and achieve that sunnah by doing the same?
because theres time for both. im not saying that talking is not an option. im saying so is war.

But if ALL fails, I do agree that we should take up arms to defend ourselves. But truth be told, we never took the time to make the christians understand. Communication was hard in those days, so people could not reach out to the entire world and thus even the smallest of things meant that nations would break out in war. But we have phones, internet, EVERYTHING in todays world. Why dont we use these gifts Allah has granted us and use them to spread the truth instead of creating a false image of Islam like what the Talibans seem to do.
because A we dont know whats true and whats propaganda and B some of what the west shows about them as 'bad' is actually within islam.


YES, like Muhammad, I will try and be nice to them at first asking them to back off by trying to make them understand their mistake. If they refuse to listen, then I OBVIOUSLY will take up arms. But unlike you, i wont blindly go into war when there is an option of achieving peace.
and when did i say i would blindly go into war?

by the way, the example you just gave, it was perfect example of your beloved Taliban.. You actually believe that Allah will support terrorists like them? Ah well, its not my place to say what Allah will or will not do, but what I know of Him, He will NOT support terrorists over innocents dying at their hands for no reason.
i think theres a difference between terrorists and mujahideen


Then why are you sitting here on the internet all day? Go ahead, take up arms. Do you have the guts to back up your words about fighting back? Your brothers are being oppressed. Lets see if you truly meant what you said all this time and go to war (in your special own violent way :) ) against the Israelis.. Lets see if you can prove me wrong.
why are u sitting on the internet all day instead of going and talking? go to afghanistan/palestine and talk the soldiers out of killing civilians
Reply

ChOcCi
10-02-2009, 03:42 PM
Your acting drunk and your only taking PARTS of my sentences, twisting those words in your favor and then using it against me. Howcome you keep on leaving out the parts in my posts where I back up those "quoted statements" and the parts where I make a solid point to validate my previous claims in my post and you chose to completely avoid the point and instead respond to my claims with your SAME OLD arguments when you know that I already answered your points in my previous important posts.

This can be seen in your "self defense" argument where it is clear that I already mentioned SEVERAL times before that "if all else fails, then we should go to war" and the post where I said that "I NEVER SAID we should not defend ourselves, but there are many forms of defense...." (summarized quote). For both of my two quotes, you ignored the last parts.

Your "when did I say I will bindly go to war?" argument was also a poor question as I already stated many times over that "we should consider peace first, THEN IF that fails, we chose war" but you simply chose to ignore this fact and argued on about how my "peace talks logic is wrong and we should defend ourselves". This means that you did not agree with my post that "peace talks first, war later" as you kept arguing against my posts and thus it is posts that you would blindly go to war without considering peace even if we were outnumbered. If you really DID agree that "we should try for peace first, if that fails, THEN war", you would not have argued against this subject in the first place, YET you still did.

There is also the "badr" example you gave and later reinforced it later on whereas I already SAID that "Allah will only help us if we are left without any choice and forced into war, but it is less likely that Allah will help us if we go to war blindly without choosing to ask for peace first against enemies who clearly outnumber us. It was a mistake that we chose war over peace so chances are that Allah will not help us very much here because WE are the ones who made the mistake by forgoing peace and putting MANY people's lives on the line against unimaginable odds so we deserve to pay for our mistakes." This means that in badr, the muslims had fought when out of choice, whereas the the situation we are discussing (non believers terrorizing us while outnumbering us 3:1) you gave off the impression that it is wrong to discuss peace with the attackers and we should go to war against them immediately without aiming for peace as displayed by this post - "when someones killing you, youre gonna use words?" which clearly contradicts your other post "and when did i say i would blindly go into war?" and thus giving points to my argument that you would not consider peace over war.


When the people of makkah said they are gathering an army against him what did he do when talks were done? he prepared and looked at war strategies because theres a time for talking and theres a time when talking is just in vain.
here talks of peace did not work as Muhammad (pbuh) DID try but they would not listen and were marching in to fight. If an army is running towards you to kill you, when will you get the TIME to talk peace? Thus he had to take up arms as peace talks had ALREADY failed previously.

There are SOO many more incidents like this happened during the previous phase of our argument but, but I will stop here as to be honest, I did not show you all the above instances to make you look bad, but I did it to make the point that you chose to leave out my IMPORTANT points which backs up ALL my previous points and then you go on flaming my "previous points" as if I never even made that "important point" before.

As you can see, I countered most of your recent arguments with ONE SINGLE statement (which you blatantly avoided):

But if ALL fails, I do agree that we should take up arms to defend ourselves.
This proves my claim that "you are arguing here not to show me the right path, but to contradict me" and therefore, it also means that you fall under the category of people who "showcases the poor qualities of the non believers when they are doing wrong NOT to correct them, but to criticize them and make them look bad. This in turn makes the non believers hate us and adds to the huge number of enemies Muslims already have." If you were trying to correct me, you would not have acted THIS oblivious to my backing points throughout our conversation and you would have tried to properly show me where I was wrong and you would hve talked to me like you were trying to help me out of my "hole". You did not.

"Your not trying to prove yourself right, ALL your doing is trying to prove me wrong, think about it." When I mentioned something like this earlier, you replied with "I can say the same thing about you" but tell me honestly, have I not tried to make you understand my points and did I not give reason and examples for most of my statements? Have you done the same for me? The answer for the latter question would be negative. Ill leave it to you to decide whether or not have I tried.

Amani, if you will completely shut out your ears and refuse to listen to a single word I say and in the meantime, blindly shout out your own beliefs at me, theres nothing more I can do for you here. If your gonna keep acting like this, then I will accept defeat and back out of this argument as I dont believe I have extra ordinary powers which will make people like you listen to the other side for once.

Yes, I do admit I lost my patience with you at the end and flamed you (indirectly) which partially contradicts my statements of "responding to flaming with respectful words in order to make the enemy understand their mistake" and I apologize to have not been able to uphold that belief of mine at the end. But none of you can say I did not try. In order to defend myself and not get called a hypocrite, I will quote a familiar post of mine and ill see if you guys can relate:

But if ALL fails, I do agree that we should take up arms to defend ourselves.
I used this quote (once AGAIN) to tell you guys that I tried quite enough to make her understand but if she will simply refuse to listen, I cannot do much about it so I had no choice but to have to resort to indirectly flame her like this to show her what she is doing is wrong. I really had no other choice.

Amani, please do us both a favor and not humiliate us both further by replying to me and block me to aid this cause. You really are persistent and if you wont give me a chance, I cant win, so go ahead, claim your "victory". This conversation is over.
Reply

ChOcCi
10-02-2009, 03:50 PM
Im sorry for my messy and in-comprehensive message up there as I should have worked on it ABIT better :/

Ah well, one thing I realized from this argument is that maybe a lot of us DID try in the past to make the non believers understand their mistake with respectful words and none of those worked so we had simply lost our patience with them over time.

But guys, the times have changed, and with the great advances in communication, we have a chance to do what our ancestors could not (due to the difficulty in communication in those days) and thus we must try and lose our frustration towards them and be kind and respectful to them to see if they understand their mistakes, even a little bit.

Well, I do admit that maybe some minor (maybe even major ones) points of mine were flawed throughout the argument, but I believe my heart was at the right place and I fought for whats right which is to try and achieve peace over war. If we can manage this peace with the non believers, Islam wont have this many enemies anymore and people will actually give Islam a chance to touch their hearts and show them the true way to get closer to Allah.

But please guys, id like to hear more opinions on this.. still, it upsets me that most of you dont like the idea of "being nice" to arrogant people JUST to help them achieve the right path. But if we do this, we will not only help humanity, but we will also help Islam.Think about it.
Reply

ChOcCi
10-02-2009, 03:51 PM
*edited due to double post*
Reply

GuestFellow
10-02-2009, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Alright, now the thing is, ALL of us Muslims here DO mind when the western world calls us "terrorists" right?
Asslamu Alikaum.

No I think we enjoy being called terrorists. JK

Be it because of their propaganda, or because of our acts (which is not the case) us Muslims HAVE had our reputation go down due to the actions done by the groups such the Taliban who perform sins in the name of OUR religion.
Yup those certain idiots cannot tell the difference between Muslims who are good and those who are bad and generalise all of us as terrorist.

Their actions DID make our religion come across as wrong and ever since then, the Western world never stopped calling us terrorists and till today we fight against this injustice as what they say is wrong and we are NOT terrorists although in the modern times (immediate present) only Muslims have had an "islamic group" who performed terror in the name of our religion (Taliban). In this aspect, the other religions come off as clean as they DO have terrorists, but hardly do they perform crime in the name of religion.
You need to look up on history and study international politics. Terrorism is used to send a political message to the government. The problems (terrorism) the West facing today is due to their foreign policy and interference in the Middle East. What goes around...comes around.

You expect people to sit down when foreigners invade their land, destroy their way of live, kill civilians and put them under oppression. You thinks they are going to play fair?

But look at us. Everytime we talk about the west, we ALWAYS go on like how shallow they are, how they are like public property, they have no shame and freely go to bed with anyone, they do drugs, etc.
Well are those the things we should be proud of? You do not expect us to compliment the sins they commit. BTW your experience is not accountable for other Muslims. Most of the Muslims from my experience behave like the kaffir.

How can we expect them to stop calling us terrorists, if we dont stop calling them these? Fact is, MANY of the muslim population (even the ones who arent living in the west) perform the same act as them sitting here in our "Muslim countries".
They are calling us terrorists for many other reasons too. ;)

What the most of their population does, is not right. But what we do, is not right either.
I agree which is why we should spread Islam and try to help other Muslims who lack knowledge about their own religion.

If they do the wrong thing, we must try to correct them, but you can NEVER correct someone if you constantly criticize them without any will to show them the right path. Thats what we do all the time.
Yes some Muslims are quite judgemental.

So we feel bad when they wrongfully call us terrorists right? What about the people in the west, the ones who DO stay away from these activities, how do they feel when we talk about them in this way?
Yeah we should not generalise but at the same time, they should not generalise either. It sounds as though you are justifying their actions to me.


Islam has taught us to be kind to everyone and to be nice. Not to go about flaming people like that. So why are we still doing this? Instead of badmouthing the western people, we should instead try to make them understand that what they are doing is wrong.
Not all Muslims talk bad about the Westerners though yes we are in no position to judge them.

As long as we associate the western people with things like shallowness, sinful adultery, drugs, etc. The western people are not obligated to call us Muslims - terrorists.
Your joking right brother? Some Westerners hate Muslims. Simple. Some will never stop.

If we want THEM to change, WE OURSELVES have to change first.[/B]

This is the point I am trying to make.
Both need to change.
Reply

ChOcCi
10-02-2009, 04:03 PM
Brother, thank you for your reply, if it is not too much trouble, look through the thread adn you will see that I have already covered most of those points later on in this thread, but I will summarize my responses for some of those questions of yours :)
You expect people to sit down when foreigners invade their land, destroy their way of live, kill civilians and put them under oppression. You thinks they are going to play fair?
I actually want us to make this "invaders" understand that what they are doing is wrong by telling them about the true meaning of Islam and making it touch their hearts and we DO THIS by talking to them kindly and respectfully. Kindness and respect, ALWAYS has a way of coming back to the giver. If THIS attempt that making them understand about Islam fails, we go to war to defend ourselves. No questions asked.

I agree which is why we should spread Islam and try to help other Muslims who lack knowledge about their own religion.
Agreed completely. This should also be one of our main focus. But we must take the SAME "kind and respectful" approach to these astray muslims as we should for the non believers.

Yeah we should not generalise but at the same time, they should not generalise either.
COMPLETELY true! but in order to end an argument, one must calm down and let go of his / her emotions and try and be kind and respectful (controlling the deep anger that this person feels inside) to make the other person understand where they are being wrong. I elaborated more on my "husband - wife argument" earlier on in this thread and that example is also applicable for strangers as well.

Your joking right brother? Some Westerners hate Muslims. Simple. Some will never stop.
But those who havent done so, cant we TRY and see? Is this wrong of me to ask of this?
Reply

GuestFellow
10-02-2009, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Brother, thank you for your reply, if it is not too much trouble, look through the thread adn you will see that I have already covered most of those points later on in this thread, but I will summarize my responses for some of those questions of yours :)
Ah too many posts to go through! :hiding:

I actually want us to make this "invaders" understand that what they are doing is wrong by telling them about the true meaning of Islam and making it touch their hearts and we DO THIS by talking to them kindly and respectfully. Kindness and respect, ALWAYS has a way of coming back to the giver. If THIS attempt that making them understand about Islam fails, we go to war to defend ourselves. No questions asked.
Yes agreed.

Agreed completely. This should also be one of our main focus. But we must take the SAME "kind and respectful" approach to these astray muslims as we should for the non believers.
Again agreed.

COMPLETELY true! but in order to end an argument, one must calm down and let go of his / her emotions and try and be kind and respectful (controlling the deep anger that this person feels inside) to make the other person understand where they are being wrong. I elaborated more on my "husband - wife argument" earlier on in this thread and that example is also applicable for strangers as well.
Again agreed.



But those who havent done so, cant we TRY and see? Is this wrong of me to ask of this?
Nope. Your completely right brother.

I'm not entirely sure how this topic dragged on...
Reply

ChOcCi
10-02-2009, 04:12 PM
Thanks guestfellow, im just glad you understood me as judging by the nature of the responses I get, i dont make myself very clear :/

But really, your agreement meant quite a lot to me actually ^_^
Reply

kawaiigardiner
10-03-2009, 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Brother, thank you for your reply, if it is not too much trouble, look through the thread adn you will see that I have already covered most of those points later on in this thread, but I will summarize my responses for some of those questions of yours :)

I actually want us to make this "invaders" understand that what they are doing is wrong by telling them about the true meaning of Islam and making it touch their hearts and we DO THIS by talking to them kindly and respectfully. Kindness and respect, ALWAYS has a way of coming back to the giver. If THIS attempt that making them understand about Islam fails, we go to war to defend ourselves. No questions asked.
Ever thought that some people do understand Islam but disagree? you don't have a monopoly on truth no matter how much you'd love it to be so.

Agreed completely. This should also be one of our main focus. But we must take the SAME "kind and respectful" approach to these astray muslims as we should for the non believers.
And when a non-Muslim still doesn't want to be a Muslim - it might be because he or she disagree's with Islamic principles as being counter reasonable or logical.

Tell me what is logical about banning Music and mandating that all men must grow a beard for starters (these aren't 'opinions', they're positions taken by your scholars) - I want to hear justification by you not what your books say but a logical well argued reason for it that doesn't resort to emotional rhetoric or some other jingoisms.

Originally Posted by naidamar
And you expect them to stop calling us terrorist if we stop (allegedly) calling those western individuals for their acts?
How naive.
It is the western media that perpetuate the image and idea of muslim as terrorist.
Not all western people think all muslims are terrorist, just as not all muslims think all westerners are filthy.

However, I agree that we as ummah need to improve our individual behaviour as close as the sunnah.
Ever thought to look at the way you behave - especially those here who blame everyone but themselves when the west gets the 'wrong' attitude. How can you not get the 'wrong' attitude by the way Muslims conduct themselves.

Unlike Islam, religion in the West is a private experience - it is not an all around life style so any attempts to equate behaviour to religion to anything else is ridiculous to begin with.

Those of us equate Islam to your behaviour because you've made your religion into a complete way of life. If Islam was a religion in the Western sense, there would be no confusion between conduct and beliefs.

Conclusion: If Muslims prayed 5 times a day, didn't drink alcohol, eat pork, go along to Friday prayers and didn't demand for the secular state to be corrupted by demanding Sharia - no one in the West would have a problem with Muslims or Islam. The fact that there are rabid zealots here demanding Sharia at the state level makes you and your religion incompatible with the rest of civilisation. It is you who are creating the clash - not us.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 03:07 AM
it is not a question of 'logic', it is social & moral mores which define the standards, that standard is defined by religion...

Why is listening to music any more 'logical' than not listening to music.. there is no mathematics involved, there are choices however..

why do you need to scrub before surgery with abrasive betadine going over each plane of your finger then your arm all the way above your elbow a certain number of neurotic time and then gown and double glove at the end of that wash?..

These are the protocols, if you want to be a surgeon you adhere to them, if you want to be a practicing Muslim you adhere to them...
you however don't get to question us on it. Islam isn't right for you, that is your prerogative, there is no compulsion in religion and every soul is held in pledge of its own deed (both mentioned in the Quran) ..

try to work on your phraseology there is really more to it than putting nonsensical words together.. at the end all you do is spam and put your ignorance on display like a scab which everyone is dying to pick!

all the best
Reply

kawaiigardiner
10-03-2009, 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
it is not a question of 'logic', it is social & moral mores which define the standards, that standard is defined by religion...
Again, why is a beard important to ones morality? or is it yet another "allah knows best" reply?

Why is listening to music any more 'logical' than not listening to music.. there is no mathematics involved, there are choices however..
Because it is an emotional outlet - cutting the emotional outlet results in religious fervour being the only allowed outlet - as demonstrated by your replies.

why do you need to scrub before surgery with abrasive betadine going over each plane of your finger then your arm all the way above your elbow a certain number of neurotic time and then gown and double glove at the end of that wash?..
For reasons of hygiene - and these can be proven, unlike the position you take.

These are the protocols, if you want to be a surgeon you adhere to them, if you want to be a practicing Muslim you adhere to them...
you however don't get to question us on it. Islam isn't right for you, that is your prerogative, there is no compulsion in religion and every soul is held in pledge of its own deed (both mentioned in the Quran) ..
No compulsion and yet you seem to be hell bent on putting the world under Sharia with a global caliphate.

try to work on your phraseology there is really more to it than putting nonsensical words together.. at the end all you do is spam and put your ignorance on display like a scab which everyone is dying to pick!

all the best
Personal attacks - the last refuge for the scoundrel.

Surprised you didn't order someone to kill me as Muhammad asked a companion to assassinate a local poet who he found 'annoying'.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 03:28 AM
Originally Posted by kawaiigardiner
Again, why is a beard important to ones morality? or is it yet another "allah knows best" reply?
And I ask you the same, why is a beard not important? don't have an answer? not even a God knows best?


Because it is an emotional outlet - cutting the emotional outlet results in religious fervour being the only allowed outlet - as demonstrated by your replies.
an emotional outlet to whom? and how is cutting an emotional outlet lead to religious fervor? can you back that up with something other than your asinine opinion?



For reasons of hygiene - and these can be proven, unlike the position you take.
No formal studies in medicine prove that scrubbing your finger 6 times as opposed to four or five times as opposed to seven leads to any better or worst hygiene in fact I challenge you to bring me the double blind study that states so, again, something other than your opinion will do!



No compulsion and yet you seem to be hell bent on putting the world under Sharia with a global caliphate.
That is your own personal delusion, the same one that leads you to write utter nonsense on every thread that you can't back up!


Personal attacks - the last refuge for the scoundrel.
Ah, an honest assessment of yourself, alas to what do we owe this sudden insight?

Surprised you didn't order someone to kill me as Muhammad asked a companion to assassinate a local poet who he found 'annoying'.
which local poet is that? do you always enjoy ending on a fabricated note? I think you are doing a good job assassinating yourself with endless moronity .. now go take a hike!

all the best
Reply

rpwelton
10-03-2009, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by kawaiigardiner
Again, why is a beard important to ones morality? or is it yet another "allah knows best" reply?
For a believer, it is simply a matter of obeying the commandments of our Creator and what He has instructed us to do, because we believe the Qur'an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and through our Prophet, Allah sent down the most perfect way of life. Until you believe what we believe, you won't understand many of the commandments that Muslims follow. It isn't always a case of "this is most logical, so that's why we do it". There are many things we do in our daily lives which have very good supporting rationale, but no matter how good that reasoning may be, first and foremost we do it because God commanded it.
Reply

kawaiigardiner
10-03-2009, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
And I ask you the same, why is a beard not important? don't have an answer? not even a God knows best?
Because ones spirituality is transcendent of ones flesh; your outward bodily appearance is zero when compared to what you hold in your heart. If you need outward displays to prove piety in the form of beards, trinkets, and other illogical ear-looms - then there is a problem with that religion.

an emotional outlet to whom? and how is cutting an emotional outlet lead to religious fervor? can you back that up with something other than your asinine opinion?
Read Siegman Freid - there are many other books on the matter relating to emotion and a lack of a health release mechaism.

No formal studies in medicine prove that scrubbing your finger 6 times as opposed to four or five times as opposed to seven leads to any better or worst hygiene in fact I challenge you to bring me the double blind study that states so, again, something other than your opinion will do!
Why do Muslims short water up their nose under the believe that evil spirits inhabit their nose and ears according to a Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith?

That is your own personal delusion, the same one that leads you to write utter nonsense on every thread that you can't back up!

Ah, an honest assessment of yourself, alas to what do we owe this sudden insight?
which local poet is that? do you always enjoy ending on a fabricated note? I think you are doing a good job assassinating yourself with endless moronity .. now go take a hike!

all the best
Your post has zealot written all over it - thank you for cementing my harsh opinion of Islam and Muslims even further. Irrational and anti-modern zealots with all the same lack of refinement as Atilla the hun.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by kawaiigardiner
Your post has zealot written all over it - thank you for cementing my harsh opinion of Islam and Muslims even further. Irrational and anti-modern zealots with all the same lack of refinement as Atilla the hun.
ah.. don't have anything of substance to write so you throw a tantrum?

now that you hate Muslims especially us beaten/battered woman, do you think you can simply take a hike from our forum?

don't you have a hooters to go too after purchasing a slurrpy from 711?
the really good ones come at this hours you know, you can come tomorrow for your IM ceftriaxone and oral doxy.. so go on and sow a few wild oats!

all the best
Reply

kawaiigardiner
10-03-2009, 04:08 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
ah.. don't have anything of substance to write so you throw a tantrum?
Interesting that you ignore my updated post.

now that you hate Muslims especially us beaten/battered woman, do you think you can simply take a hike from our forum?
I came here to learn but you simply re-enforced all the negative opinions I had before - give yourself a Allahuakbar for good measure.

don't you have a hooters to go too after purchasing a slurrpy from 711?
I'm gay - I have no interest in 'hooters'. I don't like Slurrpy - I'd prefer a peach ice tea.

the really good ones come at this hours you know, you can come tomorrow for your IM ceftriaxone and oral doxy.. so go on and sow a few wild oats!

all the best
Why would I want to 'sow a few wild oats'?
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by kawaiigardiner
Because ones spirituality is transcendent of ones flesh; your outward bodily appearance is zero when compared to what you hold in your heart. If you need outward displays to prove piety in the form of beards, trinkets, and other illogical ear-looms - then there is a problem with that religion.
That is all pretty, but how do you know that their outward doesn't reflect their inward.. again, you did a formal study surveying all muslims and their behavior?

Read Siegman Freid - there are many other books on the matter relating to emotion and a lack of a health release mechaism.
You actually need to do your homework, and bring me a current article from a medical journal that is peer reviewed .. do you think you can do that?
for instance the December Issue from JAMA discussing preoperative hand rubbing vs traditional hand scrubbing!


Why do Muslims short water up their nose under the believe that evil spirits inhabit their nose and ears according to a Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith?
Again, when you write something with assertion, you need to bring it from the source and cite it, not drivel from your stealth crusade sites!


Originally Posted by kawaiigardiner
Interesting that you ignore my updated post.
see above, although I am with you, it does indeed deserve to be ignored!
I came here to learn but you simply re-enforced all the negative opinions I had before - give yourself a Allahuakbar for good measure.
That is irrelevant to the thread and inconsequential to me personally.. I am not sure, should your anger and despair elicit some sort of a response from the members here? that is what psychiatrists get paid to do not random people on a public forum!



I'm gay - I have no interest in 'hooters'. I don't like Slurrpy - I'd prefer a peach ice tea.
go to chip and dale then and do you thing there!


Why would I want to 'sow a few wild oats'?
Why not? what is to gained from gayhood, whether in nature or in religion?

all the best
Reply

ChOcCi
10-03-2009, 04:20 AM
OKAY!!! guys! This is exactly what I was talking about.. skye, there was no need for the last para (2nd last actually) you wrote to kawai on your first reply... Why start with the insults? He is questioning our religion, so why not ANSWER him properly instead of going on the offensive? Ive spent an entire six pages trying to convince everyone not to flame questions like this to what use if you ended up insulting him like this for questioning us?

Yes, we must do what Allah has commanded us to do, but that does not mean we should follow Islam blindly. I am sure Allah WANTS us to know, WHY we do what he told us to do. Thats why we are the smartest species in the universe. If you have doubts about your religion, ALWAYS question it in order to find out the truth. That is the principle I have been living by. Its true, if we have a doubt and we leave our doubt with the answer "Allah knows best", that ISNT an answer actually. While it maybe true, it still keeps a portion of the doubt left in our heart. So what should we do? QUESTION IT.

Kawai, I myself dont believe that Music is COMPLETELY haram. Only music with bad lyrics which glorifies sins is haram. This is because music like that can sometimes lead us astray and even though its most likely you wont, some people actually do get influenced by music and start on drugs and their language also becomes foul. In Islam, it is said that all that is harmful to you and your character is forbidden. If foul music is bad for us, it is haram. It is done for our own good. Suppose something bad happened in your family - many people would rather turn to music to calm themselves down than reading the Quran and finding peace in their heart. That is wrong. Many people would play their music loud during callings for prayers from the masjid, that is just pure disrespect and many people would listen to music while not going to pray, that is neglecting your duties.

The OTHER good argument against music would be when Muhammad (pbuh) said that all who PLAYS musical instruments will be punished. But the prophet never mentioned anything about LISTENING to music, so it still allows us space to listen to music, AS LONG as it is good and AS LONG as we dont listen to it over finishing our prayers or listen to it during Azaan, etc. The quran doesnt mention music either although it does say somewhere that "we should not waste our time with idle talk" (which many include music) but if I listen to music while on a journey or doing some research over the internet, I dont see how it would be considered "idle talk" anymore then. This is what I believe. In the opinions of some other Caliphs or Khalifas, it says that they forbid music, but those words did not come from Muhammad nor the Quran so I will REFUSE to believe it unless Jesus in his second coming (yes, in Islam we do believe JESUS will come back) tells me that music is forbidden. OR if someone shows me one of Muhammad's quote about music where he says that we should not LISTEN to music.

Lastly Kawai, the beard, its not mandatory, its a Sunnah. It means that we MAY or MAY NOT do it, it is our wish. But if we DO do it, we will get ALOT of suwab (or blessing in the form of good deeds) from Allah. You dont HAVE to keep a beard. Sunnah is basically doing the same things Muhammad did.

As you can see, banning of bad lyriced music and listening to music while neglecting your duties to yourself and Allah are banned with a LOGICAL explanation. And I just explained the beard thing as well. Everything in Islam is logical, you just have to think hard and find it and I am sure that if you spend the time researching on Islam AND your own religion, you will come to like Islam ALOT more as long as you know what your own religion says as well.

Now the reason im telling you to know BOTH your own religion AND Islam is because, religion is like a rule, and generally people dont like to follow rules so you'd think that Islam is WAY too strict and you would not want to follow it. But if you believe that you want to get closer to God or Allah, then you should atleast try and see what BOTH the Holy books say and you will see that all of Islam's rulings are well, more logical and justified than the rules found in all other religious books. Just give it a chance brother. But whatever you do, know your own religion first before studying another.

If you have anymore questions, please do ask away and ill be more than happy to help :)
Reply

ChOcCi
10-03-2009, 04:25 AM
Skye, PLEASE stop with the insults. Atleast take it to another thread but not mine. I didnt spend all those hours posting here just to see that in the end no1 even listened.

@kawai, Hadiths that talk of Muhammad's doings and Muhammad's quotes are only true for me.. but opinions of Hadith writers sometimes are VERY inaccurate as it has been seen so several times in these forums. I personally ONLY believe the words about Islam which came from Muhammad and Allah, but no1 else.

Allah ONLY sent messages to Muhammad, not his companions so when these companions give their OWN opinions in the Hadith, its best that you research and think it up before you chose to follow those opinions.

We snort water into our noses to clean it. Cleanliness is all thats wudu is about. You would not want to go in front of god with dirt all over you would you? Thats the thing. Wudu just prepares us for our spiritual journey that lies ahead.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 04:27 AM
You have this clangorous need for self-righteous humbug and the need for the occasional catharsis for release.. I can't be made to read a sermon of someone's opinion, really I think it is a waste of everyone's time, and I am personally not here to make anyone happy.. Truth stands out clear from Error, if you desire to swerve from that to appease a homosexual then by all means.. religion isn't about sexual acts or orientation and their introduction into topics is as asinine as believing that if you handle a homosexual with kid gloves they will love Muslims.

You have bias, everyone does else you are a hypocrite.. you certainly can't please all people at all times.. religion is a done deal, there is no reinterpretation or modernity.. the laws are set.. if he wants to hijack another homosexual from the isle of lesbos and leave god free, he is so entitled.. If you want to join him, pls be my guest.. but you'll not dictate to me what you deem appropriate.. I hope we are clear?

all the best

p.s this is a public forum and anyone is free to write wherever they may.. I am not sure what you think you've worked had to achieve, I believe you were successful in driving the majority away as no one can be made to take 3 hrs of their time to reply to massive logorrhea ..
Reply

kawaiigardiner
10-03-2009, 04:34 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
OKAY!!! guys! This is exactly what I was talking about.. skye, there was no need for the last para (2nd last actually) you wrote to kawai on your first reply... Why start with the insults? He is questioning our religion, so why not ANSWER him properly instead of going on the offensive? Ive spent an entire six pages trying to convince everyone not to flame questions like this to what use if you ended up insulting him like this for questioning us?

Yes, we must do what Allah has commanded us to do, but that does not mean we should follow Islam blindly. I am sure Allah WANTS us to know, WHY we do what he told us to do. Thats why we are the smartest species in the universe. If you have doubts about your religion, ALWAYS question it in order to find out the truth. That is the principle I have been living by. Its true, if we have a doubt and we leave our doubt with the answer "Allah knows best", that ISNT an answer actually. While it maybe true, it still keeps a portion of the doubt left in our heart. So what should we do? QUESTION IT.
Unfortunately there are some here who have the idea of "this is Islam, don't question it, just do it".

Kawai, I myself dont believe that Music is COMPLETELY haram. Only music with bad lyrics which glorifies sins is haram. This is because music like that can sometimes lead us astray and even though its most likely you wont, some people actually do get influenced by music and start on drugs and their language also becomes foul. In Islam, it is said that all that is harmful to you and your character is forbidden. If foul music is bad for us, it is haram. It is done for our own good. Suppose something bad happened in your family - many people would rather turn to music to calm themselves down than reading the Quran and finding peace in their heart. That is wrong. Many people would play their music loud during callings for prayers from the masjid, that is just pure disrespect and many people would listen to music while not going to pray, that is neglecting your duties.
Hence I found the ban on Music by the four schools of Fiqh as being ridiculous; honestly, is the following going to lead to hell, fire and ****ation?

Rachmaninov concerto #2. I. Moderato
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ud_wGMXRnQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42aMCKX0k9Y

The OTHER good argument against music would be when Muhammad (pbuh) said that all who PLAYS musical instruments will be punished. But the prophet never mentioned anything about LISTENING to music, so it still allows us space to listen to music, AS LONG as it is good and AS LONG as we dont listen to it over finishing our prayers or listen to it during Azaan, etc. The quran doesnt mention music either although it does say somewhere that "we should not waste our time with idle talk" (which many include music) but if I listen to music while on a journey or doing some research over the internet, I dont see how it would be considered "idle talk" anymore then. This is what I believe. In the opinions of some other Caliphs or Khalifas, it says that they forbid music, but those words did not come from Muhammad nor the Quran so I will REFUSE to believe it unless Jesus in his second coming (yes, in Islam we do believe JESUS will come back) tells me that music is forbidden. OR if someone shows me one of Muhammad's quote about music where he says that we should not LISTEN to music.
I play the piano - so that rules out Islam for me.

Lastly Kawai, the beard, its not mandatory, its a Sunnah. It means that we MAY or MAY NOT do it, it is our wish. But if we DO do it, we will get ALOT of suwab (or blessing in the form of good deeds) from Allah. You dont HAVE to keep a beard. Sunnah is basically doing the same things Muhammad did.
According to the four schools of Fiqh, it is mandatory.

As you can see, banning of bad lyriced music and listening to music while neglecting your duties to yourself and Allah are banned with a LOGICAL explanation. And I just explained the beard thing as well. Everything in Islam is logical, you just have to think hard and find it and I am sure that if you spend the time researching on Islam AND your own religion, you will come to like Islam ALOT more as long as you know what your own religion says as well.

Now the reason im telling you to know BOTH your own religion AND Islam is because, religion is like a rule, and generally people dont like to follow rules so you'd think that Islam is WAY too strict and you would not want to follow it. But if you believe that you want to get closer to God or Allah, then you should atleast try and see what BOTH the Holy books say and you will see that all of Islam's rulings are well, more logical and justified than the rules found in all other religious books. Just give it a chance brother. But whatever you do, know your own religion first before studying another.

If you have anymore questions, please do ask away and ill be more than happy to help :)
I don't mind rules when they are based on logic and reason - not because a philistine took exception with someone who has artistic skills.
Reply

ChOcCi
10-03-2009, 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You have this clangorous need for self-righteous humbug and the need for the occasional catharsis for release.. I can't be made to read a sermon of someone's opinion, really I think it is a waste of everyone's time, and I am personally not here to make anyone happy.. Truth stands out clear from Error, if you desire to swerve from that to appease a homosexual then by all means.. religion isn't about sexual acts or orientation and their introduction into topics is as asinine as believing that if you handle a homosexual with kid gloves they will love Muslims.

You have bias, everyone does else you are a hypocrite.. you certainly can't please all people at all times.. religion is a done deal, there is no reinterpretation or modernity.. the laws are set.. if he wants to hijack another homosexual from the isle of lesbos and leave god free, he is so entitled.. If you want to join him, pls be my guest.. but you'll not dictate to me what you deem appropriate.. I hope we are clear?

all the best

p.s this is a public forum and anyone is free to write wherever they may.. I am not sure what you think you've worked had to achieve, I believe you were successful in driving the majority away as no one can be made to take 3 hrs of their time to reply to massive logorrhea ..
Truth stands out from error. Thats why I am trying to make him realize which way is right and which way is wrong through the PROPER WAY! The WAY Islam wants us to do things. Muhammad (pbuh) wanted us to be kind and respectful to people right? THATS WHAT I AM DOING!! A SUNNAH!

You on the other hand are being blatantly disrespectful, to me AND him. I have no shown you any disrespect but you went ahead and flamed me too.. nice! tells me A LOT to me about your beautiful character.


p.s this is a public forum and anyone is free to write wherever they may
oh rly?

then whats this you said earlier to kawai??

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
now that you hate Muslims especially us beaten/battered woman, do you think you can simply take a hike from our forum?
Your entitled to your opinion, im entitled to mine. If you think being violent towards ANYONE who does something wrong and criticizing them WITHOUT the will to make them understand will ACTUALLY help spread the word of Islam to the non believers, then be my guest and bask in your own ignorance.

I on the other hand will follow the right way of doing things, the way Islam WANTS us to be by being respectful and kind to everyone and make them understand with the TRUE will of making them learn from my part. I believe people here on the forums already know who is right and who is wrong between you and I. But I will leave it at that. I believe my intentions are pure, but your intentions are solely aimed at demeaning the people who mistakes.

I want to make a difference in this world, and I want to follow my religion knowing WHY I follow it instead of having blind faith. Thats how I plan on changing the views of the non believers. Showing them WHY they should follow Islam and I obviously wont let an arrogant person like you get in my way of wanting to make a difference.

Please, as a favor to me, go lead another thread astray, I want this thread to stay open so that people may see and realize the situation we are all in and the way we should act.
Reply

ChOcCi
10-03-2009, 04:48 AM
@ kawai, it maybe be mandatory for those schools of fiqh, but EVERYONE knows this, keeping a beard is a Sunnah, NOT a faradh. Its not commanded upon us by God. Please search around Google abit more and you'll see this.

As for the music part, I would be grateful if you could quote Muhammad (pbuh) saying that "LISTENING to music is wrong". Otherwise there is no evidence of GOOD music being forbidden in the Quran as well as I have not found any quotes of Muhammad (pbuh) saying listening to good music is bad.

Playing music is a different issue as Allah wants us to use our life properly and effeciently. Not produce something that will lead others astray and maybe cause your listeners to do sin by listening to music over doing their duties.. Thats why playing music (as a profession atleast) is bad and that is purely logical.
Reply

جوري
10-03-2009, 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
Truth stands out from error. Thats why I am trying to make him realize which way is right and which way is wrong through the PROPER WAY! The WAY Islam wants us to do things. Muhammad (pbuh) wanted us to be kind and respectful to people right? THATS WHAT I AM DOING!! A SUNNAH!
Actually you are not, you are passing wrong fatwas based on his wrong assumptions on Islam.. he didn't bother read a consensus on all schools of thoughts, and you make the error to water down his interpretation in lieu of giving him the correct ones.

You on the other hand are being blatantly disrespectful, to me AND him. I have no shown you any disrespect but you went ahead and flamed me too.. nice! tells me A LOT to me about your beautiful character.
Again, inconsequential, he especially earned his disrespect with direct insults toward Islam and slandering the prophet, if you find that acceptable, then perhaps Islam isn't for you all together...



oh rly?

then whats this you said earlier to kawai??
It is indeed an Islamic forum that caters to Muslims for which I believe any Muslim member is allowed to write/correct where they deem appropriate!.


Your entitled to your opinion, im entitled to mine. If you think being violent towards ANYONE who does something wrong and criticizing them WITHOUT the will to make them understand will ACTUALLY help spread the word of Islam to the non believers, then be my guest and bask in your own ignorance.
Perhaps you should define simple terms for yourself, before you go off on tirades logical fallacies and other blahs?

all the best
Reply

ChOcCi
10-03-2009, 05:03 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Actually you are not, you are passing wrong fatwas based on his wrong assumptions on Islam.. he didn't bother read a consensus on all schools of thoughts, and you make the error to water down his interpretation in lieu of giving him the correct ones.

Again, inconsequential, he especially earned his disrespect with direct insults toward Islam and slandering the prophet, if you find that acceptable, then perhaps Islam isn't for you all together...



It is indeed an Islamic forum that caters to Muslims for which I believe any Muslim member is allowed to write/correct where they deem appropriate!.


Perhaps you should define simple terms for yourself, before you go off on tirades logical fallacies and other blahs?

all the best
Then please skye, if you keep criticizing me for my mistakes, HOW will I learn? Why dont you just take the time to show me my mistakes instead of insulting me like this? What are you trying to achieve with this?

And no, I dont find him showing disrespect to our religion acceptable, THATS WHY im correcting him in the first place.

Unless you want to help, please, stop pouring salt over your own religion.
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