Last Supper?

[Sojourn]

"Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith." They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle." Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."
Al Maeda, ayat 12-15

Is this referring to what Christians call the Last Supper?

[Danah]

Sojourn, here is the whole Quran you can check exactly where does that ayah mentioned http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

here is the "exact" ayat you mentioned in surah Al Maidah [112-115]

When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is thy Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Observe your duty to Allah, if ye are true believers. (112) (They said) :We wish to eat thereof, that we may satisfy our hearts and know that thou hast spoken truth to us, and that thereof we may be witnesses. (113) Jesus, son of Mary, said: O Allah, Lord of us! Send down for us a table spread with food from heaven, that it may be a feast for us, for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from Thee. Give us sustenance, for Thou art the Best of Sustainers. (114) Allah said: Lo! I send it down for you. And whoso disbelieveth of you afterward, him surely will I punish with a punishment wherewith I have not punished any of (My) creatures.(115)

[north_malaysian]

Sojourn, here is the whole Quran you can check exactly where does that ayah mentioned http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

here is the "exact" ayat you mentioned in surah Al Maidah [112-115]

When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is thy Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Observe your duty to Allah, if ye are true believers. (112) (They said) :We wish to eat thereof, that we may satisfy our hearts and know that thou hast spoken truth to us, and that thereof we may be witnesses. (113) Jesus, son of Mary, said: O Allah, Lord of us! Send down for us a table spread with food from heaven, that it may be a feast for us, for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from Thee. Give us sustenance, for Thou art the Best of Sustainers. (114) Allah said: Lo! I send it down for you. And whoso disbelieveth of you afterward, him surely will I punish with a punishment wherewith I have not punished any of (My) creatures.(115)

so he missed the extra "1" in front of those ayaat refered

[Sojourn]

so he missed the extra "1" in front of those ayaat refered

Yes, thank you for the correction.

So are those ayat referring to the Last Supper?

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[syilla]

^^^ most of the muslims do not understand the terms of last supper :)

[Sojourn]

^^^ most of the muslims do not understand the terms of last supper :)

Maybe it would be easier to ask if the ayat are referring to establishing a day of worship, i.e. Sunday, because on that day a miraculous meal occurred.

[north_malaysian]

I've heard somewhere that "Al Maidah" which means "The Table Spread with Food" refers to the "Last Supper"... but cant verify that...

[north_malaysian]

^^^ most of the muslims do not understand the terms of last supper :)

I am not surprised if there are Muslims thinking "last supper" means the "suhoor" (pre-dawn meal before fasting)...;D

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

related links:


Joshua

The Lord's Prayer & the Last Supper: A Muslim Take

Date24/Oct/2007



Question

Christians believe in what we call the "Lord's Prayer". A man once asked Jesus how to pray and as I'm sure you know Jesus said the Lord's Prayer. So my question is what do Muslims think about it and how do you feel about the Lord's Prayer.

He also broke bread with his followers and passed around a cup of wine the night before, as we believe, Christ was crucified. Jesus said "this is my body... eat it, this is my blood... drink it...do this in remembrance of me".

How do Muslims feel about the Last Supper? Do they deny it?

I personally see both as proof, to me, that Christ said he was the son of God and died on the Cross. Is none of this in the Qur'an, or do you have a different





Counselor Idris Tawfiq

...

"Lead Us Not Into Temptation" – Qur'an
Whether or not Jesus said the words of what is now known as the Lord's Prayer is known to Allah alone.
The words "and lead us not into temptation," but deliver us from evil, are similar to the opening chapter of the Qur'an, where a translation of the meaning would read as follows:
*{Show us the straight way, the way of those on whom thou bestowest thy Grace, Those whose portion is not wrath, and Who go not astray.*} (Al-Fatihah 1:6-7)
For Muslims, referring to God as Father carries the connotation of there being sons, and the idea of God having sons is abhorrent to Islam.
Whilst Jesus may or may not have had a special, last supper with his friends, the Qur'an says nothing about this, so Muslims are unable to comment on such a thing.
Did Jesus Die on the Cross?
As for Jesus dying on the Cross, though, Islam is perfectly clear. A translation of the meaning of the Arabic original in the Qur'an tells us:
*{… but they killed him not, nor crucified him,}* (An-Nisaa' 4: 157)
and later in the same verse it tells us that:
*{…of a certainty they killed him not." (An-Nisaa' 4: 157)
So, you see, Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the Cross.
In the Qur'an we find an account of Jesus' birth to a virgin named Maryam (Mary), although the account differs somewhat from the narrative accounts of Matthew and Luke.
We also find some words of Jesus, where he specifically refutes the suggestion that he is anything more than a messenger.
Common Grounds
What Christians and Muslims can both agree on, though, is that Jesus was a truly remarkable man who worked miracles and spoke God's word to the people.
They can also agree that God is the Creator and the Originator of all things and that nothing exists without His willing it to exist.

Useful Links:

The Story of Mary and the Birth of Jesus
Jesus, Son of Mary
Is Jesus the Incarnation of God?
Is Jesus Dead or Alive?
Jesus Between Islam and Christianity
The Role of Jesus
Jesus… a Follower of Muhammad?
Muslims Following Jesus
Jesus Through a Muslim Lens
What Is Islam?

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE

[_ALI_]

Salam Sojourn

So are those ayat referring to the Last Supper?

These verses tell us about a story regarding Jesus and his disciples. Like all stories of the Quran, this we can learn many things from this story.
005.112 إِذْ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ هَلْ يَسْتَطِيعُ رَبُّكَ أَنْ يُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا مَائِدَةً مِنَ السَّمَاءِ قَالَ اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ
005.112 Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith."

Here the disciples didn't say that O Jesus, can you send down to us a table set? They said: Can your Lord do that, indicating that the disciples at the time of Jesus knew that he wasn't God. He was only a prophet who prayed to God.

005.113 قَالُوا نُرِيدُ أَنْ نَأْكُلَ مِنْهَا وَتَطْمَئِنَّ قُلُوبُنَا وَنَعْلَمَ أَنْ قَدْ صَدَقْتَنَا وَنَكُونَ عَلَيْهَا مِنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ
005.113 They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

005.114 قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ اللَّهُمَّ رَبَّنَا أَنْزِلْ عَلَيْنَا مَائِدَةً مِنَ السَّمَاءِ تَكُونُ لَنَا عِيدًا لأوَّلِنَا وَآخِرِنَا وَآيَةً مِنْكَ وَارْزُقْنَا وَأَنْتَ خَيرُ الرَّازِقِينَ
005.114 Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."
005.115 قَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مُنَزِّلُهَا عَلَيْكُمْ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بَعْدُ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنِّي أُعَذِّبُهُ عَذَابًا لا أُعَذِّبُهُ أَحَدًا مِنَ الْعَالَمِينَ
005.115 Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."
Al-Qur'an, 005.112-115 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Here we are told a rule of God. It's that once a group of people demand a particular miracle from their prophet, and the prophet supplicates for that miracle. And then God does that particular miracle and after that, people reject Him, they incur the terrible wrath of God.
Coming to your question, does this refer to the last supper? Well the verses don't confirm that the meal was sent down. It may be that the disciples retracted their request after hearing the warning. And nowhere does it says that this was the last meal Jesus had with his disciples.
Peace.

[Grace Seeker]

Well the verses don't confirm that the meal was sent down. It may be that the disciples retracted their request after hearing the warning.

OK. So these different English translations say two different things:
"Allah said: "I will send it down unto you'." and "Allah said: Lo! I send it down for you."
One appears to speak in the future tense and the other in the present tense. Can someone who is able to read this passage in the Arabic help clarify whether or not the food was actually sent down? Thanks.

[جوري]

God did send them the table but with a warning!

The Story of Jesus, Son of Mary

By Marwa Elnaggar *

March 24, 2005

This verse from the Qur’an refers to the incident when Jesus asked God to send them a table from heaven.

In relating the story of Jesus, the Qur’an describes how Mary, the mother of Jesus, was approached by an angel from God, bringing her tidings she had never imagined: that she will give birth to a son, a Messiah, who will be of the righteous and will be a prophet of God, calling the Children of Israel (the Israelites) to the straight path of God.

[(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.] (Aal `Imran 3:45-46)

Naturally, for Mary, this news was both strange and seemingly impossible.

[She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel.] (Aal `Imran 3:47-48)

The very nature of Jesus is so special, that God compares the uniqueness of his creation to that of the first man and prophet, Adam.

[Lo! The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.] (Aal `Imran 3:59)

Jesus and His Miracles

“And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah.”

Jesus, son of Mary

Jesus became one of the greatest prophets of God, and was sent to the Children of Israel in order to confirm the teachings of his predecessor, the Prophet Moses. His birth was a miracle, and, like all prophets of God, he was granted several miracles. He approached his people, telling them:

[Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.

Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.] (Aal `Imran 3:49-51)

Jesus’s Followers

The story of Jesus never really ends in the Qur’an, as we are told that Jesus was not killed.

The Qur’an continues the story of Jesus by relating several incidents of his life and his disciples.

[But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

Our Lord! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him whom Thou hast sent. Enroll us among those who witness (to the truth).] (Aal `Imran 3:52-53)

In another incident, after which an entire surah of the Qur’an is named, the disciples of Jesus asked him for another miracle.

[Behold! the disciples, said: “O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?” Jesus said: “Fear Allah, if ye have faith.”

They said: “We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.”

Jesus the son of Mary said: “O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us—for the first and the last of us—a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).”] (Al-Ma’idah 5:112-114)

God sent them the table they had asked for, but not without a warning.

[Allah said: “I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples.”] (Al-Ma’idah 5:115)

The End of the Story?

The story of Jesus never really ends in the Qur’an, as we are told that Jesus was not killed, but that rather, God raised his beloved prophet up to him.

[Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

For more on Jesus in Islam:

Jesus

Jesus in Islam

As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong.] (Aal `Imran 3:53-55)

The Qur’an also points out that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified. Speaking of the Children of Israel, Allah faults their accusations against Mary as well as their claim that they killed Jesus.

[That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:156-158)

The Qur’an confirms that Jesus was raised up by God, and the Prophet Muhammad reassured us that Jesus will be sent down to earth once again before the Day of Judgment. In a hadith narrated by Abu Hurairah, the Prophet Muhammad said: “By the One in Whose hand is my self, definitely the son of Maryam will soon descend among you as a just judge, and he will break the cross, kill the pig, and abolish the jizyah (tribute), and wealth will be so abundant that no one will accept it, until a single prostration will be better than the world and everything in it.” (Al-Bukhari)

And Allah swt knows best

http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle03.shtml

[Rasema]

Sojourn, you had this particular argument on another forum and therefore it should be clear to you...

[Sojourn]

"that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival"

I recall reading in Ibn Kathir that the solemn festival is an establishment of a day or prayer.

[جوري]

Sojourn, you had this particular argument on another forum and therefore it should be clear to you...

Christians aren't in general after clarity, rather here to mislead and only they stand to lose by it.. it didn't work on the Jews, and well they have more atheists in their back yard than they care to account for, thus who is their natural next target? except when they teach them at the stealth crusade, they instruct it with the same sophomoric carpet bombing style with which they approach everything, inevitably it comes back to bite them..

If they had an honest bone like Dr. Gary miller, they'd be pioneers and take the Quran challenge.. however, they probably fear that end.. as Dr. Miller reverted to Islam after a twenty year study to bring down Islam...:D

:w:

[Rasema]

Christians aren't in general after clarity, rather here to mislead and only they stand to lose by it.. it didn't work on the Jews, and well they have more atheists in their back yard than they care to account for, thus who is their natural next target? except when they teach them at the stealth crusade, they instruct it with the same sophomoric carpet bombing style with which they approach everything, inevitably it comes back to bite them..

If they had an honest bone like Dr. Gary miller, they'd be pioneers and take the Quran challenge.. however, they probably fear that end.. as Dr. Miller reverted to Islam after a twenty year study to bring down Islam...:D

:w:

Good way of putting it expert.:bism: I've learned a lesson.

:sl: to you and :wa:

[Sojourn]

Sojourn, you had this particular argument on another forum and therefore it should be clear to you...

The issue was never really settled. The first time I saw those ayat associated with the Last Supper was in Pikthal's introduction to the Chapter. I'm just trying to see what Muslims believe about it.

[Al-manar]

The issue was never really settled.

I hope the following settle the issue forever..


"Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith." They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle." Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."
Al Maeda, ayat 12-15

Is this referring to what Christians call the Last Supper?

No, it can't....

1- The so called christian supper is claimed to be the last meal Jesus shared with his disciples while the meal mentioned in the quran cant be for some clues ,a last meal:


-The Quranic verion depicts the disciples as still in their first era with Jesus,asking for signs to satisfy their hearts and encourage them to believe every word he said......
but haven't they watched him performing miracles before,eg raising dead by the power of his God?

it seems from the way they ask,it was the first miracle he ever performed in front of them....

even if this miracle was not the first in front of them,it seems unreasonable to believe that his disciples had lack of faith in his message till the day before he died...

especially we have a quranic clue that after Jews accused him of magic ,he wondred who could be his supporter in the way of God? his disciples affirmed 3:52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Submitters to the truth.

-The meal in the Quran is a miracle ,in the gospel not.

-Absured to imagine Juda thinking of betraying jesus while having this wonderful heavenly meal.

-Jesus performed various miracles in various occasions,days ....doesn't neccesarily referring to establishing a day of worship.



Did Allah send the table?

Allah said: "I will send it down unto you...

And Allah keeps always his promises...



Regards.

[Woodrow]

"that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival"

I recall reading in Ibn Kathir that the solemn festival is an establishment of a day or prayer.

Each and every day is established as a day of prayer. Every prayer time is a solemn festival. The concept of one day out of the week being required for prayer leads to the impression that on the other 6 days it is less important to pray.

[Sojourn]

Peace Woodrow,

Each and every day is established as a day of prayer. Every prayer time is a solemn festival. The concept of one day out of the week being required for prayer leads to the impression that on the other 6 days it is less important to pray.

I don't think that's true, holding a particular day solemn is to emphasize it's importance from the perspective of salvation history, i.e. Passover for the Jews, Good Friday for Christians. Even some Muslims offer extra devotions on Laylat al Qadr in commemoration the day the Quran was first revealed to Muhammad, I doubt these Muslims think doing so detracts from the prayer done on other days.

The reason why I bring the ayat up is because it appears the Quran is explaining in its own way why Christians hold Sunday to be a "day of prayer." Just as Friday holds a particular significance for Muslims.


Pax,
Sojourn

[Al-manar]

holding a particular day solemn is to emphasize it's importance

I agree with you in that point.

it appears the Quran is explaining in its own way why Christians hold Sunday to be a "day of prayer."

Pax,
Sojourn

I disagree with that ........

What you read in Ibn Kathir that the solemn festival is an establishment of a day (sunday),is mere an opinion ...... after reflecting well the verse,I think this opinion is invalid

The word (EEdan) which been translated a solemn feast

could mean
the happiness which to be repeated ,eg a feast comes repeatedly ..

a gathering of people in a happy situation ...


the second meaning makes much sense to the verse....

simply Jesus prayed for Allah to send this table and all of them gather around it in happiness as the same feeling and experience of a feast...


It is a common expression in the Arab world...

some person would say in a normal day (today we had a feast)

If refering to a happy gathering of people having food and fun together even if the day wasn't a formal feast...


and that meaning mentioned (beside the other meaning) in Tafsir Al Kashaf
he wrote:

it is said also that it could mean the table to be a happiness and joy for us..(Tafsir Al Kashaf)


and that makes much sense...


Regards

[Sojourn]

Peace Al-Manar

The word (EEdan) which been translated a solemn feast

could mean
the happiness which to be repeated ,eg a feast comes repeatedly ..

It was actually Ibn Kathir who said the "solemn festival" was the establishment of a day of prayer, and this was based off a narration from one of the companions or salaf. You yourself indicate that the word "eedan" can mean "the happiness that is to be **repeated**" Now here is the point, there is a Day of Prayer in Christianity that is a repitition of a Sacred Meal, and it has been celebrated since the time of the Apostles, the only difference is it had to do with Jesus' Last Supper and not a table descending from heaven.


Pax,
Sojourn

[Al-manar]

Peace ,Sojourn

Peace Al-Manar

It was actually Ibn Kathir who said the "solemn festival" was the establishment of a day of prayer, and this was based off a narration from one of the companions or salaf.

Pax,
Sojourn

That is true ,Ibn Kathir and all of the Quranic Tafsir composers Quoted some varied narrations from the companions which represnts their personal understanding....
eg,
Two Sahaba (sodai and Qatada)understood the word as refering to sunday.

some other sahaba eg,Salman Alfaresi understood the word (EEdan) as means, a sign and a lesson to us and the future generation...


Ibn Abbas understood it as that the disciples were fasting 30 days !!!and broke their fast with this heavenly meal..

others narrated that the table contained fruits from paradise...


etc................


lots of narrations but none based on proofs...

there is a Day of Prayer in Christianity that is a repitition of a Sacred Meal, and it has been celebrated since the time of the Apostles.

That may be a valid understanding if we ignore the context and the language of the verse and force the meaning to be nothing but a repeated feast....

The verse suggested strongly the other meaning....... look for example this quote from Ibn Abbas:

تفسير التسهيل لعلوم التنزيل / ابن جزي الغرناطي
قال ابن عباس: المعنى تكون مجتمعاً لجميعنا أوّلنا وآخرنا في يوم نزولها خاصة لا عيداً يدور


Ibn Abbas said:The meaning is that the table will be a place where we gather All from the first to the last ,in the day it comes down not a repeated feast
(Tafsir,Altasheel le oloom altanzeel)

Ibn Qutaiba wrote:

وقال ابن قتيبة: عيداً، أي: مجمعاً

Eedan means a gathering


Almawerdi wrote:

Eedan means a sign and proof for us
(Tafsir Almawerdi)


Imam Tantawi wrote :

وقوله: { عيدا } أى سرورا وفرحا لنا، لأن كلمة العيد تستعمل بمعنى الفرح والسرور.

His saying (Eedan) means happiness and Joy and can't mean a feast to be repeated in that context .(Tafsir Alwasit)

In sum

The verse says simply:

Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table, a sign from you,that we all gather around it , feeling happiness and joy and strong faith...



Regards

[Sojourn]

Peace Al Manar,

Two Sahaba (sodai and Qatada)understood the word as refering to sunday.

I appreciate you mentioning this because I had no idea some of the companions explicitly identified it with Sunday. Do you mind providing the reference?

some other sahaba eg,Salman Alfaresi understood the word (EEdan) as means, a sign and a lesson to us and the future generation...

The statements from the sahaba you mention above and elsewhere don't contradict the establishment of Sunday as a Day of Prayer. For what established that day as a day of prayer can also be a lesson for future generations, and it could have been proceeded by a 30 day fast, etc.

Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table, a sign from you,that we all gather around it , feeling happiness and joy and strong faith...

These are some statements Ibn Kathir quotes:

As-Suddi commented that the Ayah means,
"We will take that day on which the table was sent down as a day of celebration, that we and those who come after us would consider sacred.''

Sufyan Ath-Thawri said that it means,
"A day of prayer.''

I think it's hard to passover that a significant number of sahaba believed it to be referring to a day of prayer.


Pax,
Sojourn

[Al-manar]

Peace Sojourn

Peace Al Manar,



I appreciate you mentioning this because I had no idea some of the companions explicitly identified it with Sunday. Do you mind providing the reference?

Actually, you have referenced that already in your post

As-Suddi commented that the Ayah means,
"We will take that day on which the table was sent down as a day of celebration, that we and those who come after us would consider sacred.''

Sufyan Ath-Thawri said that it means,
"A day of prayer.''

The statements from the sahaba you mention above and elsewhere don't contradict the establishment of Sunday as a Day of Prayer. For what established that day as a day of prayer can also be a lesson for future generations.

Our question is that Sahabi believed that the verse suggests a repeated feast?

from his own words he said this day was a miracle show that been witnessed by the disciples that gave them a lesson in faith which the disciples told others about it and they told their sons grandsons etc......


but again this understanding ignore the word (Eedan) as if is it not there in the verse !



the same way the understanding of As-Suddi and Qatada suggest putting words between the lines of the verse!!!


Let's analyse the verse to find out why the understanding of the great Sahabi Ibn Abbas is the one that makes much sense:


قَالَ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ ٱللَّهُمَّ رَبَّنَآ أَنزِلْ عَلَيْنَا مَآئِدَةً مِّنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ تَكُونُ لَنَا عِيداً لأَوَّلِنَا وَآخِرِنَا وَآيَةً مِّنْكَ وَٱرْزُقْنَا وَأَنتَ خَيْرُ ٱلرَّازِقِينَ

let's translate it literally


Jesus son of Mary said Allah May you send a table from heaven TO BE a feast for us our first and our the last


What (TO BE) refers to?

it refers to the table not to a day(as this flawed understanding suggests)....

A table to be a feast?

yes when a group of people gather around it having food and fun....


the meaning is simple and imposing the word(a day) doesn't make much sense...

For what established that day as a day of prayer can also be a lesson for future generations, and it could have been proceeded by a 30 day fast, etc. .

Have we Eid ul-Fitr here?!:statisfie

by the way that was the understanding of Sahaby Ibn Abbas

وأخرج ابن جرير وابن أبي حاتم وأبو الشيخ عن ابن عباس. أنه كان يحدث عن عيسى ابن مريم أنه قال لبني إسرائيل: هل لكم أن تصوموا لله ثلاثين يوماً؟ ثم تسألوه فيعطيكم ما سألتم، فإن أجر العامل على من عمل له، ففعلوا ثم قالوا: يا معلم الخير قلت لنا إن أجر العامل على من عمل له، وأمرتنا أن نصوم ثلاثين يوماً ففعلنا، ولم نكن نعمل لأحد ثلاثين يوماً إلا أطعمنا، { هل يستطيع ربك أن ينزل علينا مائدة من السماء } إلى قوله { أحداً من العالمين } فأقبلت الملائكة تطير بمائدة من السماء عليها سبعة أحوات وسبعة أرغفة حتى وضعتها بين أيديهم، فأكل منها آخر الناس كما أكل منها أولهم.


Narrated Ibn Abbas ,Jesus told sons of Israel ,would you fast 30 days for God? afterwards ask him all what you want.... they did it ................ then the angels came with the table ,and on it 7 whales and seven pieces of bread !! then all the people therin ate, from their first till the last .!!!!



Have we Isra'iliyat there? yes,why not.

I have quoted that to let you know Sahab (may Allah bless their souls) had different understanding regarding the same issue..some got it right and some not ..........

but again such disagreement were not in matters that affects their basic beliefs ...

I think it's hard to passover that a significant number of sahaba believed it to be referring to a day of prayer. .

there were 2 sahaba versus other sahaba eg,Ibn Abbas (The one that viewed as the most knowledgeable of the Companions in tafsir) who understood it simply as it says literally ....... and that view is the one I'm convinced to...

and that is the lesson I had in years of reflecting the glorious Quran...

most of it should be understood literally ,and the narrations is weapon with two ends

it either elaborate the issue or build a wall between the reader and the verse,that he can't understand the original meaning intended for the verse but through such wall !!

Examples are many ,but let's not get offtopic...

I hope now you got the full picture been drawn in the books of Tafsir regarding the issue.. Tafsir doesn't mean only Ibn Kathir, though it is good book but it should be considered only an introduction to the science of tafsir ,it is though cared to be authentic as much as possible but it is not such tafsir that treat the Quranic language in depth ,showing its miraclelous liguestic nature as Al-Kashshaf neither such profound Tafsirs which shows how Quran and reason never conflicts as Tafsir Fakhruddīn al-Rāzī, Tfsir Fī Zilāl al-Qur'ān by Sayyid Quṭb,,Tafsir manar by Rashid Reda....


I hope one day this page which contains almost all the Tafsirs in Arabic http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...1&LanguageId=1

to open it one day ,finding all its content in English too...

Regards

[Al-manar]

I should have edited (but still i can't edit according to such strange rule)


Two Sahaba (sodai and Qatada)understood the word as refering to sunday

the fact that though they understood it as a reference to a feast but no Sahaba ever mentioned sunday..

the one who said Sunday is not Sahabi he is Ka'ab al-Ahbar

he said:
it came to Earth sunday that is why the christians make it as a feast....

قال كعب أنها نزلت يوم الأحد و لذلك اتخذه النصارى عيدا

and that is his own understanding which we have already shown why we can't buy it..


Regards

[Sojourn]

Just as an aside, is there an Islamic tradition as to why Christians worship on Sunday, or why their worship centers around a sacred meal Jesus had with His apostles?

[Al-manar]

Peace Sojourn

If you want to know what the reality regarding the supper and sunday consult the Quran and it has the answer:

The Quran is clear in the matter of the Sabbath

It affirms that the Sabbath day was really appointed for the Sons of Israel,and punished those who violated it:


4:47 O you who have been granted revelation [aforetime]! Believe in what We have [now] bestowed from on high in confirmation of whatever [of the truth] you already possess, lest We efface your hopes and bring them to an end [62] - just as We rejected those people who broke the sabbath: for God's will is always done.


2:65 for you are well aware of those from among you who profaned the sabbath, whereupon We said unto them, "Be as apes despicable!"


4:154 raising Mount Sinai high above them in witness of their solemn pledge. And We said unto them, “Enter the gate humbly”; [16] [7] and We told them, "Do not break the sabbath-law"; and We accepted from them a most solemn pledge.

7:163 And ask them about that town which stood by the sea: how its people would profane the sabbath whenever their fish came to them, breaking the water's surface, on a day on which they ought to have kept sabbath -because they would not come to them on other than sabbath-days! [129] Thus did We try them by means of their [own] iniquitous doings.


7:164 And whenever some people [130] among them asked [those who tried to restrain the sabbath-breakers], "Why do you preach to people whom God is about to destroy or [at least] to chastise with suffering severe?" -the pious ones [131] would answer, "In order to be free from blame before your Sustainer, and that these [transgressors, too,] might become conscious of Him."


The Sabbath is mentioned six times as a day based on divine order ,and not one time such Sunday issue,why?

cause,according to the Quran, there is nothing divine about selecting the Sunday ,If there is no last supper,no crucifiction,no resurrection ,according to the Quran ,will there be a Sunday which based on such claimed issues?!



Regards

[Grace Seeker]

The Quran is clear in the matter of the Sabbath

It affirms that the Sabbath day was really appointed for the Sons of Israel,and punished those who violated it:

Christians also recognize that the Sabbath is Friday at sunset till Saturday at sunset. But since Christians are not Sons of Israel, how does this apply to them?

[Al-manar]

Christians also recognize that the Sabbath is Friday at sunset till Saturday at sunset. But since Christians are not Sons of Israel, how does this apply to them?

You ask why christians should keep such Sabbath kept by the Jews ,instead of the so called (Lord's Day) Sunday?

And I tell you According to the Quran , none of them should be kept after the coming of Islam.......Friday is the day...


According to the Quran what day should be kept by the Jews or the christians before Islam?

It is Saturday ,cause the way Christians shifted to Sunday is not upon a divine order but human invention...

Regards

[Grace Seeker]

According to the Quran what day should be kept by the Jews or the christians before Islam?

It is Saturday ,cause the way Christians shifted to Sunday is not upon a divine order but human invention...

But how was that divine order, given specifically to Jews, applicable to Gentile Christians?

Also, how is it that Muslims know that the day of assembly specified in the Qur'an is to be on Friday and not on Saturday? I don't read Arabic, but the English translations I see appear to supply Friday (as the assumed day) rather than translate it from an Arabic. Does the Qur'an actually mention the name of the day, Friday, in the Arabic text?

[Al-manar]

But how was that divine order, given specifically to Jews, applicable to Gentile Christians?

Just to remember....

we are not having a two sided conversation between a Sabatarian and another christian..

I hope the discussion to be Quran verses Bible not Bible versus Bible...

Well, this order of Sabbath ,according to the Quran ,been kept not only by the Jews but by Jesus himself

3:50 "'I(Jesus) have come to you, to attest the Law which was before me.

those who kept the law of Torah after Jesus,rejecting the trinity and the concept of blood atonement till Islam ,are those in the dictionary of The Quran are called true christians...

Also, how is it that Muslims know that the day of assembly specified in the Qur'an is to be on Friday and not on Saturday? I don't read Arabic, but the English translations I see appear to supply Friday (as the assumed day) rather than translate it from an Arabic. Does the Qur'an actually mention the name of the day, Friday, in the Arabic text?

Sorry I can't get what you mean here

would you plz ,provide me with the verse you mean?

[Sojourn]

those who kept the law of Torah after Jesus,rejecting the trinity and the concept of blood atonement till Islam ,are those in the dictionary of The Quran are called true christians...

Can you identify these Christians historically?

[Sojourn]

Peace Sojourn

Peace Al-manar

If you want to know what the reality regarding the supper and sunday consult the Quran and it has the answer:

I know the reality of the Last Supper and Sunday, it's not really the issue at hand. And the Qur'an addresses very little if anything of what we recognize to be mainstream Christianity.

cause,according to the Quran, there is nothing divine about selecting the Sunday ,If there is no last supper,no crucifiction,no resurrection ,according to the Quran ,will there be a Sunday which based on such claimed issues?!

The thing is the Qur'an *does* mention a day of worship that was established after a miraculous meal. Both sahaba and great ulema have recognized the aya mentioned as referring to Sunday and a day of prayer. You personally disagree, while I believe the evidence is strong.


Pax,
Sojourn

[Al-manar]

peace Sojourn

Can you identify these Christians historically?

that needs another post inshaAllah...

Both sahaba and great ulema have recognized the aya mentioned as referring to Sunday and a day of prayer.

I thought My quotes would make you ,at least, no longer generalize ..

You personally disagree,.

and some Sahaby and great ulama disagree too..

while I believe the evidence is strong.

You know when I would suggest the evidence to be strong?

Only one word in the verse had it been another word, the matter would have been changed 100%

It is the word تكون (Takon) mentioned before (Eedan)

(Takon) which means (To be) has to refer to (the table)

I challenge anyone who studied Arabic to say otherwise....

Had the word been يكون (yakon) which means (to be) too, and could be used with a day, the meaning could possibly have been a reference to a day...


قَالَ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ ٱللَّهُمَّ رَبَّنَآ أَنزِلْ عَلَيْنَا مَآئِدَةً مِّنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ تَكُونُ لَنَا عِيداً


Anyway I’m satisfied that you finally found what you think settled the matter in your mind …



Regards

[Al-manar]

Can you identify these Christians historically?

peace sojourn


The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus


what is the religion of Jesus?



42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).


but was the message of Jesus identical to that by Moses?

The gospel was not only a book of wisdom and preaching:

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.


But also a book of some new easy laws:


3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.


The true followers of the message of Jesus stay on Earth till day of judgment

3:52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."


57:27 Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah. but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.



61:14 O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.





In light of the Quranic verses we can define the term true Christian ,in accordance to 3 stages:

1-The life time of Jesus

any follower of the teachings ,new laws(of the gospel) been preached by Jesus.

2- After the life time of Jesus

any follower of the laws of the Torah , apply them, reject both the trinity and the concept of Jesus atoned sins...

under this category included lots of Jews,Ebionites and other groups whose work been discovered as the Gospel of Thomas ,and those whose work still under the sand yet to be discovered.

3- The coming of Islam

Once Islam comes , his set of laws which been documented ,been affirmed as the last message God sent,has to be followed.......



peace

[Grace Seeker]

peace sojourn


The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus

What translation are you using? I did a search of 4 different English translations of the Qur'an and I could not find a single reference to the term "true Christian". I found plenty of times where the term "Christian" is used by itself. And well over a hundred times where the term "true" was used. But not a single occurance where they were used together. (BTW, I couldn't find the term "true Christian" used in any Hadith either.)


I suspect that this is not a term from the Qur'an, but your own understanding of what it means to be a "true Christian". For you, a Christian would be as you have described, one who follows the religion of Jesus, which I have no doubt you believe to have been Islam.

My question to you then is, would a "true Christian" be pleased with Muhammad? If Muhammad were, after receiving the knowledge that he did, to follow the desires of "true Christians" would Allah be his Wali or helper, or not?

[OurIslamic]

Maybe you should consult a local imam or sheikh in your community that you can talk face to face with.

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe you should consult a local imam or sheikh in your community that you can talk face to face with.

Is that addressed to me or someone else?

[Al-manar]

Is that addressed to me or someone else?

If not you,then may be me !

well, though till the end of my life I will have lots to learn,but I don't think one day I would consult a local imam or sheikh in my community ,for information....

anyway,thank you for your advice(if you really meant it for me)

God bless you

What translation are you using? I did a search of 4 different English translations of the Qur'an and I could not find a single reference to the term "true Christian".

you are right

I have used the term to differentiate between it and the term (christian) used by christians...

I suspect that this is not a term from the Qur'an, but your own understanding of what it means to be a "true Christian".

If ,according to the Glorious Quran,those who followed Jesus were Law keepers,never believed in Trinity,salvation etc.... then those are the true christians opposed to those false christians whom you know well....

If Muhammad were, after receiving the knowledge that he did, to follow the desires of "true Christians" would Allah be his Wali or helper, or not?

The true Christians before or After Islam?

If before Islam (whom I defined before),then Mohamed ,though the message he recieved is the same in the basic lines ,but he wouldn't follow their desires neither his own desires,but God's desires and his new message....

[Grace Seeker]

The true Christians before or After Islam?

You are the one who was using the term "true Christians", saying that these are whom the Qur'an was speaking of when speaking of Christans as distinct from Christians of today. I'm just adopting the term you used. But to make the question simpler for you:

Would Christians, as Christians are spoken of in the Qur'an, be pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) as Muslims understand him, one who followed the Guidance of Allah and had received the knowledge of the Qur'an?

[Al-manar]

Would Christians, as Christians are spoken of in the Qur'an, be pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) as Muslims understand him, one who followed the Guidance of Allah and had received the knowledge of the Qur'an?

Allow me to make the answer simpler for you:

The Quran speaks of a group that call themselves christians but they are not true christians


5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they ignored a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

And speaks of another group as true follower of the message of jesus(the true monotheist,Torah keepers till Islam,and Muslims till day of judgment):

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


Would the first type be pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) as Muslims understand him, one who followed the Guidance of Allah and had received the knowledge of the Qur'an?

2:120 Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

I hope you understood me that time....

peace

[Grace Seeker]

Al-manar, the reason I have pushed so hard on this is that your original statment is different than your present one.

peace sojourn


The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus

Allow me to make the answer simpler for you:

The Quran speaks of a group that call themselves christians but they are not true christians

In truth, the term "true Christian" is never once used in either the Qur'an, nor the Hadith of the prophet. The term "Christian" is used, and when it is used it is used to refer to those who have a belief that is different than that which is taught by the Qur'an. Simply put, your first statement was in gross error. You reported something as being in the Qur'an that simply is not there. I accept your second statement as being an expression of your belief.

The term "true Christians" is one of your own making. I understand that it reflects the belief system that you ascribe to. You believe that the first Christians followed a different teaching than Christians do today. But as far as what the Qur'an itself is referring to when it refers to Christians and their teachings, it does not actually refer to that group which you believe once existed. It actually is referring to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs.

[Al-manar]

Peace

your first statement was in gross error.

If so, correct me and name this group properaly

(I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith)...

You believe that the first Christians followed a different teaching than Christians do today. .

well, do the following verses speak about one and same group?

I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith.

and
Those reject faith who say Jesus son of Mary is God.

But as far as what the Qur'an itself is referring to when it refers to Christians and their teachings, it does not actually refer to that group which you believe once existed. .

That is right and that is what I posted before !..

those who Say Jesus is God can't be the group That the Quran named (followers of the true message of Jesus)..... which is synonyms to (true christians)

It actually is referring to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs .

The belief of Jesus as God is a reference to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs ?

or

following of the true message of Jesus(according to the Quran) is a reference to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs ?

pick one of them as you don't have a third choice.....
and plz ,support your next post from the Quran... thanx

Regards

[Grace Seeker]

That is right and that is what I posted before !..

No. That isn't what you actually posted.

Peace

If so, correct me

I believe you were in gross error when you made the following statement:

The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus

The above is what you actually posted. You make the statement that the Qur'an speaks of a "true Christian" which it defines as you have as being one who follows the religion of Jesus.

First, the term "true Christian" is never once used in the Qur'an. Only the term "Christian", without the adjective your provided, is used. So that is one error.

But even more, when the term "Christian is used" it is used to speak of people who do not follow the religion of Muhammad.

From surah 2:120

Never will the Jews nor the christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the guidance of Allah (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) that is the (only) guidance. And if you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) were to follow their (Jews and christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'an), then you would have against Allah neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper.

Since, according to your understanding, Jesus taught the same message as Muhammed, then those who are being referred to as Christians in this passage, and not following the religion of Jesus either and must not (by your understanding) qualify as "true Christians". Christians, as identified by the Qur'an want Muhammad, to follow their Christian religion, which is quite different than what Muhammad actually did follow. Indeed, this group of Christians which the Qur'an actually does speak about have beliefs that are nearly the opposite of that which you claimed. And that is why I said that you were gross error.


Please, understand. I am not challenging your belief as to what you personally consider a "true Christian" to be. I am challenging your statment that such a term is identified a particular way in the Qur'an. If you can find any place where the Qur'an identifies what a "true Christian" is, (not just a follower of Islam or true religion, but the actual term that you used "true Christian") I believe it is now time for you to present it, or stand corrected.

[Al-manar]

the term "true Christian" is never once used in the Qur'an.

I have used the term to differentiate between it and the term (christian) used by christians...

the misunderstanding is over !!

according to your understanding, Jesus taught the same message as Muhammed,

Not typically..

Christians, as identified by the Qur'an want Muhammad, to follow their Christian religion, which is quite different than what Muhammad actually did follow. Indeed, this group of Christians which the Qur'an actually does speak about have beliefs that are nearly the opposite of that which you claimed.

Again my question ,and we are not going anywhere till you answer it...

Do the following 2 verses speak about one and same group?


I will make those who follow thee(Jesus) superior to those who reject faith ,I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection (Quran 3.55).

And

Those reject faith who say God is the Messiah, son of Mary(Quran 5:72)

One who would read the previous and claim that the Quran doesn't view christians as two groups (true and false) ,then one must have a reading comprehension problem...

or you disagree?

Regards

[Grace Seeker]

One who would read the previous and claim that the Quran doesn't view christians as two groups (true and false) ,then one must have a reading comprehension problem...

or you disagree?

Regards

One who would read the previous and claim that the Qur'an uses the term "true Christian" at all, must be seeing things. It may or may not view Christians as true and false, but it never actually uses the term "true Christian" as you have claimed it does. To move on to a discussion of how the Qur'an views Christians is to change the focus away from that which I challenged you on.

Before one can say what or who a term refers to, one must actually find that term in use. So, please, show me where the Qur'an actually uses the term "true Christian" before you continue to say things like: "The term true Christian according to the Quran : refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus."


The Qur'an has to actually use that term before one can say that the particular term has a specific meaning in the Qur'an. Until you can show me the actually occurance of your term "true Chrisitian" within the text of the Qur'an, the rest of what you have to say is meaningless.

[Al-manar]

One who would read the previous and claim that the Qur'an uses the term "true Christian" at all, must be seeing things. It may or may not view Christians as true and false, but it never actually uses the term "true Christian" as you have claimed it does. To move on to a discussion of how the Qur'an views Christians is to change the focus away from that which I challenged you on.

It uses a synonyms
I will make those who follow thee(Jesus) superior to those who reject faith


and talking about challenge ,I challenge you to claim that "true Christians" and "those who follow thee(Jesus)" can't be the exact meaning...



I challenge you ,too ,to claim that "false Christians" and

Those reject faith who say God is the Messiah, son of Mary(Quran 5:72) can't be the exact meaning...

[Grace Seeker]

It uses a synonyms
I will make those who follow thee(Jesus) superior to those who reject faith


and talking about challenge ,I challenge you to claim that "true Christians" and "those who follow thee(Jesus)" can't be the exact meaning...



I challenge you ,too ,to claim that "false Christians" and

Those reject faith who say God is the Messiah, son of Mary(Quran 5:72) can't be the exact meaning...

Here is the problem with your challenge. It doesn't change anything.

You said that the term "true Christians in the Qur'an' and no such term is to be found in the Qur'an. It is like arguing that the term USA in the Qur'an stands for United States of American. You might be correct that the term USA does indeed stand for United States of America, but as the term USA is actually never found in the Qur'an the rest of any such statement is meaningless.

Argue all you want that you believe that true Christians are those who follow Jesus and that false Christians are those who say God is the Messiah, son of Mary. I'll recognize that as your opinion and that you base it on easily identifiable Qur'anic passages. But don't say this nonsense about the term "true Christians" in the Qur'an being such and such until you can actually produce it.

When I read the Qur'an here is the description that I see of Christians:
1) Christians are people who will never be pleased with Muhammad
2) that if Muhammad were to follow Christian desires then he would have no Wali against Allah.

And no adjectives as to true or false are provided.

[Al-manar]

When I read the Qur'an here is the description that I see of Christians:
1) Christians are people who will never be pleased with Muhammad
2) that if Muhammad were to follow Christian desires then he would have no Wali against Allah.

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That is Elementary reading of what the Quran tells about christians , the complete reading as follows:

1- The christians who say that Jesus is God simply are misbelievers.[Qur'an 5:17

2- They call themselves christians,but it is mere a title doesn't reflect reality

Qur'an 5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they ignored a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

note that they who named themselves christians not God.

3- They are destined to hell ,if not repenting

[098:006] Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein .


On the other hand

3- The followers of Jesus (name them whatever u wish) will be above (in morality) those who misbelieve (Those indeed misbelieve who say God is the Messiah) not only after the termination of the mission of Jesus on Earth but also TILL DAY OF JUDGMENT....

[003:055] Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


Those followers of the true message of jesus may be viewed by those who call themselves christians(who worship Jesus), as heretics ,misleaded,can't be redeemed by keeping the law ,etc ..

we ,on the other hand, the followers of the law ,trust God's law and keep it ,not for God's benefit but ours... and we feel sorry for the moral downfall of those who depend on blood not the law to redeem them...


In sum , the claim that christians is a title has to be a reference to those who say Jesus is God ,is ignorance not only of the Quran who differentiate clearly between (the follower of the true meassage of jesus) versus (the misbeliever who take Jesus as God) but also the recorded hsitory of those who followed the law and denied Jesus as God....

[Grace Seeker]

That is Elementary reading of what the Quran tells about christians , the complete reading as follows:

1- The christians who say that Jesus is God simply are misbelievers.[Qur'an 5:17

2- They call themselves christians,but it is mere a title doesn't reflect reality

Qur'an 5:14
note that they who named themselves christians not God.


On the other hand

3- The followers of Jesus (name them whatever u wish) will be above (in morality) those who misbelieve (Those indeed misbelieve who say God is the Messiah) not only after the termination of the mission of Jesus on Earth but also TILL DAY OF JUDGMENT....


Those followers of the true message of jesus may be viewed by those who call themselves christians(who worship Jesus), as heretics ,misleaded,can't be redeemed by keeping the law ,etc ..

we ,on the other hand, the followers of the law ,trust God's law and keep it ,not for God's benefit but ours... and we feel sorry for the moral downfall of those who depend on blood not the law to redeem them...


In sum , the claim that christians is a title has to be a reference to those who say Jesus is God ,is ignorance not only of the Quran who differentiate clearly between (the follower of the true meassage of jesus) versus (the misbeliever who take Jesus as God) but also the recorded hsitory of those who followed the law and denied Jesus as God....

Al-manar, I'm not disputing your interpretation of Islamic theology vis-a-vis your understanding of who are and who are not "true Christians" by your faith's particular definition of what that would entail.

I'm disputing the accuracy of your statement as actually reflecting the language of the Qur'an.

The term true Christian according to the Quran :

"According to the Qur'an", meaning that specific term -- "true Christian" -- can actually found in the Qur'an.


Let me give an illustration where I would have the same beef with a Christian author and maybe you will get my point.

If someone wrote that "the everlasting life that Jesus offers to people in his encounter with the rich young ruler (Mark 10) is only available to those who are willing to abandon everything else in order to make following Jesus the priority of their life." I would object. I would not object to the theology. I would object to impreciseness of their langauge and word choice.

First, I would object that there is no rich young ruler in Mark's gospel. There is a rich man in Mark's gospel, Matthew tells us that he is young, but only Luke tells us that he is a ruler. While it is most likely the same story told by each Gospel writer just emphasizing three different aspects of the rich man, we should not impose the adjectives of Luke or Matthew onto Mark's story unless Mark himself includes them.

Second, I would object that in the story Jesus doesn't talk about "everlasting life," he talks about "eternal life." And while I might perceive the terminology as being synonymous, while I might even make a convincing argument to that effect, that does not mean that I can say the term "everlasting life" is a part of Mark's Gospel narrative. In fact, Mark never uses the term "everlasting life" in his entire Gospel. And to talk about it as if he had, when he could have but didn't is, in my opinion, to be guilty of re-writing the Gospel account.

If I want to interpret "eternal life" to be synonymous as "everlasting life" or "heaven" or "paradise", those are all choices I can make and share with my readers. But if I say something such as "when Jesus talks about 'everlasting life' in Mark's account of Jesus' life and ministry", then I am guilty of fabricating the story to my own ends because I haven't been truthful with the reader because I have inserted my own words in place of the author's word choice.

So, I understand that you may indeed view that "true Christians" are not those that follow Jesus, but that follow the religion of Jesus. And you may arrive at that conclusion as the most logical extension of the Quran's teachings with regard to what it meant to be a Christian in the time of Jesus. And you may even one day succeed at convincing me that it is so. But, I will still object to the implication that the Qur'an uses the term "true Christians" to mean anything. I will object because the Qur'an doesn't actually use the term "true Christians" at all. Because to say, "according the Qur'an," a term means something when the reference term is not actually to be found in the Qur'an is to re-write the Qur'an, and I can't believe a true Muslim would ever do that.

[Al-manar]

Well thank you for your long speech over and over again which I thought it would produce something new and interesting for the thread viewers! ....

[Grace Seeker]

So, you still think that this is an accurate statement?

The term true Christian according to the Quran :

refers to those who follow the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus

I keep repeating myself, because you keep insisting that your statement is not in error, but you have yet to show me any place where the Qur'an actually makes a reference to the term "true Christian". You keep wanting to move on to other things, but those other things are not the point. All I'm pointing out is that the this term simply does not exist in the Qur'an. Of course I keep repeating the same thing for as long as you continue to deny your error, or show me mine.

You've not shown me that I am in error, for all you do is to repeatedly express Islamic thought. You've yet to actually produce the term "true Christian" from the Qur'an. All you have to do is show me those two words used together in as a single simple phrase. If not, admit your error. The idea, as you expressed it, may be Islamic, but it isn't Qur'anic.

[Al-manar]

So, you still think that this is an accurate statement?

.

You are at it again

If you are concentrating ,I have early in our discussion eliminated such misunderstanding between us ,u thinking that I meant the word(literally) exist in the Quran and I said not, though later I showed you It is the same exact meaning of the other…

Read again

I did a search of 4 different English translations of the Qur'an and I could not find a single reference to the term "true Christian"..

you are right
I have used the term to differentiate between it and the term (Christian) used by Christians....

your dissatisfaction by me using the synonymous of the word not only because it is not mentioned literally ,but also you made a wild assertion .

But as far as what the Qur'an itself is referring to when it refers to Christians and their teachings, it does not actually refer to that group which you believe once existed. It actually is referring to those who practiced Christianity in the 7th century and their beliefs.

That was error; and you been corrected..

Well, I hope the original topic Last Supper, been answered well..

I have more important threads to post .

best wishes.