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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-30-2009, 04:51 AM
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"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so...... believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for verily Allah is One, Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." --Qur'an 4:171
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جوري
09-30-2009, 05:02 AM
this is mighty interesting.. I hope you can put it in comparative religion insha'Allah?

:w:
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Danah
10-17-2009, 07:13 PM
Interesting video, May Allah guide them to the true path

Thanks for sharing!
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mahfuja
10-17-2009, 07:23 PM
This is brilliant! reminds me of this small documentary i watched recentely: "the Divine book"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsmrOvWIhKA&feature=fvw
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Grace Seeker
10-17-2009, 09:17 PM
Do you accept that the Didache is as old as they say it is in this video?
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amalteser
10-20-2009, 07:23 PM
The Didache is NOT the 'INSPIRED WORD of GOD'!!!

Whereas:


2 Timothy 3:16-17 (Amplified Bible)
16Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),

17So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.
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Grace Seeker
10-21-2009, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Do you [Maalik, Gossemer Skye, other Muslims who have responded to this thread] accept that the Didache is as old as they say it is in this video?
I'm waiting for an answer.
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Woodrow
10-21-2009, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I'm waiting for an answer.
To be honest Gene (Grace Seeker) I tend to doubt the Authenticity of newly found "Ancient" documents. I think it was careless or unscrupulous for this to have been made public before indisputable verification of it's authenticity was made.

Although now that it has been made public, there probably will be considerable pressure to find proof of it's authenticity. That will be good no matter which way it goes as truth is a brighter light than fraud. If it is true it may extend the teachings of Islam, if it is a fraud it will be a lesson to overly zealous people to understand that is not an acceptable means to spread truth.
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Grace Seeker
10-21-2009, 04:33 AM
Well, Woodrow, what I'll let you in on is no secret, but the Didache is something that Christians have known about for years. And though it was once considered "lost", it was also found more than a century ago. If you would like to read it, simply look here: Didache published by "Early Christian Writings". I myself have referred to it many times before on these forums. I don't think that Muslims are going to be so grateful for its recovery. They confirm that the church taught the things that the Qu'ran says never happend from the very beginning, even before the gospels or the letters of Paul were ever written.


For instance, it says: "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water." No doubt, even though you won't yourself believe it factually true, you can see in this baptismal formula found in the didache the precursor to the more formal doctrine of the Trinity.

Notice also when they would worship: "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together." This is not a reference to the Jewish Sabbath, but to the Christian habit of gathering for worship on Sunday. It was called the "Lord's day" as a testimony regarding Jesus supposed resurrection on the first day of the week. I say "supposed" out of respect for your beliefs. But it is important that you understand that these Christians who wrote the Didache really did suppose it to have happened, that is why they had a day called "the Lord's day." And as the video presents, this was again NOT Paul. Nor was it the Gospel writers. This is much earlier in the history of Christianity than that. This is at a time when Jesus' own family members were around to say that the even never happened. And we simply don't have that, even though we have lots of documents preserved from that time that had all sorts of descriptions of who Jesus was and what he did, from the miracles he supposedly performed as a child to his supposed marrying of Mary Magdalane. Many of these documents were considered down right heretical by the church. But they still exist and were NOT all destroyed as many falsely claim. And yet, not in a one of them do we have a denial by those who knew Jesus of what the Didache implicity testifies to, that the first generation of the church, those closest to Jesus, believed him to have been resurrection and baptized using a forumla that would put Jesus on par with God himself.

I'm not saying that you have to accept that those beliefs were true. But I do think that Muslims should quit asserting that this was invented by Paul, or that the disciples and first followers of Jesus never practiced any of these beliefs. The Didache shows that this was indeed their teaching, for this is what the term "didache" means -- the teachings.


Other point that the video makes are important as well. The early church did understand Jesus' role as primarily that of being a servant. However, this is nothing that should surprise people as a new teaching. Look again at Mark, that concept is what the whole book is about. And John even elevates that thought to Jesus divine command to his disciples. Servanthood is central to all Christian teaching, for that is the core of what Jesus himself taught and it was affirmed by each of the Gospel writers, and, YES, by Paul as well. I don't get why people suggest that it was something new. It is central to a proper understanding of Jesus as presented in the scriptures, and is even what is understood as having been prophesied about by Isaiah. Hence the Suffering Servant of Isaiah is understood to be the model for Jesus' own ministry.
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Woodrow
10-21-2009, 05:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Well, Woodrow, what I'll let you in on is no secret, but the Didache is something that Christians have known about for years. And though it was once considered "lost", it was also found more than a century ago. If you would like to read it, simply look here: Didache published by "Early Christian Writings". I myself have referred to it many times before on these forums. I don't think that Muslims are going to be so grateful for its recovery. They confirm that the church taught the things that the Qu'ran says never happend from the very beginning, even before the gospels or the letters of Paul were ever written.


For instance, it says: "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water." No doubt, even though you won't yourself believe it factually true, you can see in this baptismal formula found in the didache the precursor to the more formal doctrine of the Trinity.

Notice also when they would worship: "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together." This is not a reference to the Jewish Sabbath, but to the Christian habit of gathering for worship on Sunday. It was called the "Lord's day" as a testimony regarding Jesus supposed resurrection on the first day of the week. I say "supposed" out of respect for your beliefs. But it is important that you understand that these Christians who wrote the Didache really did suppose it to have happened, that is why they had a day called "the Lord's day." And as the video presents, this was again NOT Paul. Nor was it the Gospel writers. This is much earlier in the history of Christianity than that. This is at a time when Jesus' own family members were around to say that the even never happened. And we simply don't have that, even though we have lots of documents preserved from that time that had all sorts of descriptions of who Jesus was and what he did, from the miracles he supposedly performed as a child to his supposed marrying of Mary Magdalane. Many of these documents were considered down right heretical by the church. But they still exist and were NOT all destroyed as many falsely claim. And yet, not in a one of them do we have a denial by those who knew Jesus of what the Didache implicity testifies to, that the first generation of the church, those closest to Jesus, believed him to have been resurrection and baptized using a forumla that would put Jesus on par with God himself.

I'm not saying that you have to accept that those beliefs were true. But I do think that Muslims should quit asserting that this was invented by Paul, or that the disciples and first followers of Jesus never practiced any of these beliefs. The Didache shows that this was indeed their teaching, for this is what the term "didache" means -- the teachings.


Other point that the video makes are important as well. The early church did understand Jesus' role as primarily that of being a servant. However, this is nothing that should surprise people as a new teaching. Look again at Mark, that concept is what the whole book is about. And John even elevates that thought to Jesus divine command to his disciples. Servanthood is central to all Christian teaching, for that is the core of what Jesus himself taught and it was affirmed by each of the Gospel writers, and, YES, by Paul as well. I don't get why people suggest that it was something new. It is central to a proper understanding of Jesus as presented in the scriptures, and is even what is understood as having been prophesied about by Isaiah. Hence the Suffering Servant of Isaiah is understood to be the model for Jesus' own ministry.
Peace Gene,

I Still rememer some of my old seminary days. Even back then the Roman Catholic Church accepted the Didache as writing of the "Father's" of the church. I do agree the didache does disagree with Islam. While I can accept the Didache as predating Paul, I doubt if it's message was accepted by many Christians until after Paul.
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Grace Seeker
10-21-2009, 07:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
While I can accept the Didache as predating Paul, I doubt if it's message was accepted by many Christians until after Paul.
Why would that be? I think a pretty good case can be made for this being the codified ritual of the church that was in practice around the time that the church was just beginning to move outside of Palestine and become more of a Gentile community. I suspect that this was something written by (or, more likely, under the auspices of) the Apostles as a means of providing guidance to the "how" questions that no doubt came up with regard to various rites of worship. Because of the many similarities between the content of the Didache and the Epsitle of Barnabas that it might have been the work of Barnabas, perhaps around the time that Barnabas was still the leader of the team of Barnabas and Paul, before the two split apart. My biggest objection to that theory is that I don't think that the Epistle of Barnabas was actually written by Barnabas, but an anonymous 2nd century author who simply added Barnabas' name to the document.

My own thought is that the Didache was likely used as a work in progress -- there seem to be different editions of it -- and that perhaps the writer of the letter had knowledge of it so that the influence goes from the Didache to the letter rather than that they had a common author.

Also, that there is much that Matthew and the Didache have in common, and much that Matthew and Mark have in common, seems to me to indicate that Matthew probably had access to both of these documents, but that the Gospel of Mark and the Didache were both among the earliest Christian works and probably arrived relatively contemporaneous to each other, but in different geographical localities so that there was little opportunity for contact between the two at the time of their origin. For instance Mark could have been written in Jerusalem and the Didache in Syrian Antioch.

In any of these events, the thing I would most like people to see is that it does confirm that people on these forums so much want to put off on Paul already had expression in other works that pre-date Paul and that tradition holds were part of the collective teaching of the Apostles.
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MuslimCONVERT
11-08-2009, 01:06 AM
For instance, it says: "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water." No doubt, even though you won't yourself believe it factually true, you can see in this baptismal formula found in the didache the precursor to the more formal doctrine of the Trinity.

Notice also when they would worship: "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together." This is not a reference to the Jewish Sabbath, but to the Christian habit of gathering for worship on Sunday. It was called the "Lord's day" as a testimony regarding Jesus supposed resurrection on the first day of the week. I say "supposed" out of respect for your beliefs. But it is important that you understand that these Christians who wrote the Didache really did suppose it to have happened, that is why they had a day called "the Lord's day." And as the video presents, this was again NOT Paul. Nor was it the Gospel writers. This is much earlier in the history of Christianity than that. This is at a time when Jesus' own family members were around to say that the even never happened.
None of this actually contradicts Islam. In the Islamic Sacred Law, particularly the articles of faith, it is a must that all Muslims accept all of the Prophets. The Ulema [learned sages, scholars, Text Exegetes, whatever term you prefer to use in English] have understood, unanimously, that this means that the Prophets were all on the same Aqeeda [faith principals] but their Shari'a and Fiqh [laws and rituals] were different and specific to their people and time.

Perhaps Baptism was an authentic ritual established by Jesus [saas], they may have even used the words "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" -whether or not those words meant then what they mean to Christians today is another story. They may have worshiped on the "Lords Day" and so on. Also, perhaps Jesus [saas] didn't ordain any of this, -it's speculation, and wouldn't really effect the validity of the Muslim claims for Christ [saas].
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Grace Seeker
11-08-2009, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimCONVERT
None of this actually contradicts Islam. In the Islamic Sacred Law, particularly the articles of faith, it is a must that all Muslims accept all of the Prophets. The Ulema [learned sages, scholars, Text Exegetes, whatever term you prefer to use in English] have understood, unanimously, that this means that the Prophets were all on the same Aqeeda [faith principals] but their Shari'a and Fiqh [laws and rituals] were different and specific to their people and time.

Perhaps Baptism was an authentic ritual established by Jesus [saas], they may have even used the words "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" -whether or not those words meant then what they mean to Christians today is another story. They may have worshiped on the "Lords Day" and so on. Also, perhaps Jesus [saas] didn't ordain any of this, -it's speculation, and wouldn't really effect the validity of the Muslim claims for Christ [saas].
Agreed, none of this actually contradicts Islam. What it contradicts is the popular version of the history of Christianity as expressed by so many on these boards which insists that these things are all the result of either Paul or Constantine and were never practiced by the earliest generation of Christians.
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YusufNoor
11-08-2009, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Do you accept that the Didache is as old as they say it is in this video?
i haven't watched the vid, and don't intend to. but there ARE problems BOTH with dating as well as content of the Didache.


format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Well, Woodrow, what I'll let you in on is no secret, but the Didache is something that Christians have known about for years. And though it was once considered "lost", it was also found more than a century ago. If you would like to read it, simply look here: Didache published by "Early Christian Writings". I myself have referred to it many times before on these forums. I don't think that Muslims are going to be so grateful for its recovery.

i'm ambivalent .


They confirm that the church taught the things that the Qu'ran says never happend from the very beginning, even before the gospels or the letters of Paul were ever written.

i would disagree with it being written before "Paulian" works, as you should as well.


For instance, it says: "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water." No doubt, even though you won't yourself believe it factually true, you can see in this baptismal formula found in the didache the precursor to the more formal doctrine of the Trinity.

this may imply a trinity, but it doesn't do any more than that. to pump out the text it could very well mean:

baptize into the name of the Father, Allah the One True God, Whom besides there is no other god

and of bene Elohim, Jesus the Christ, the Messenger of Allah

and of the Holy Spirit, Gibreel, who brought the Revelation from "the Father" to bene Elohim, Jesus the Christ.

meaning, of course, La Illaha Illallah wa Isa Rasulullah. and adding the explanation of Islam from Surah Al Fatihah, Iyyaka Na'budu, wa Iyyaka Nesta'een, which translates as You Alone we wroship adn You Alone we seek help.

we then read it as we believe there is no god but Allah, "the Father" and we agree to worship Him in the way taught to us by Rasulullah, bene Elohim, Jesus the Christ as he was taught the Revelation by the Holy Spirit, Gibreel.

looks OK to me!


Notice also when they would worship: "But every Lord's day gather yourselves together." This is not a reference to the Jewish Sabbath, but to the Christian habit of gathering for worship on Sunday.

this is one of the parts that gives it a later date.

It was called the "Lord's day" as a testimony regarding Jesus supposed resurrection on the first day of the week. I say "supposed" out of respect for your beliefs. But it is important that you understand that these Christians who wrote the Didache really did suppose it to have happened, that is why they had a day called "the Lord's day."

but in order for Jesus' prophecy of the Sign of Jonah to be fulfilled, the Resurrection COULD NOT have taken place on Sunday! the Resurrection would have had to have been on the Sabbath!

And as the video presents, this was again NOT Paul. Nor was it the Gospel writers. This is much earlier in the history of Christianity than that. This is at a time when Jesus' own family members were around to say that the even never happened. And we simply don't have that, even though we have lots of documents preserved from that time that had all sorts of descriptions of who Jesus was and what he did, from the miracles he supposedly performed as a child to his supposed marrying of Mary Magdalane. Many of these documents were considered down right heretical by the church. But they still exist and were NOT all destroyed as many falsely claim. And yet, not in a one of them do we have a denial by those who knew Jesus of what the Didache implicity testifies to, that the first generation of the church, those closest to Jesus, believed him to have been resurrection and baptized using a forumla that would put Jesus on par with God himself.

I'm not saying that you have to accept that those beliefs were true. But I do think that Muslims should quit asserting that this was invented by Paul, or that the disciples and first followers of Jesus never practiced any of these beliefs. The Didache shows that this was indeed their teaching, for this is what the term "Didache" means -- the teachings.

to quote Paul in Galatians:

Galatians 2

1Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

2And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain
.

Paul, here indicates that he is preaching a new Gospel, the Gospel of Paul. this gospel is so different from the previous gospels that he has to communicate it "IN PRIVATE!"

and the dating of this document would put it later in the first century anywhere to mid 3rd century.


Other point that the video makes are important as well. The early church did understand Jesus' role as primarily that of being a servant.

agreed, that of Abd and Messenger, just like Muhammad ibn Abdullah, PBUH.

However, this is nothing that should surprise people as a new teaching. Look again at Mark, that concept is what the whole book is about. And John even elevates that thought to Jesus divine command to his disciples. Servanthood is central to all Christian teaching, for that is the core of what Jesus himself taught and it was affirmed by each of the Gospel writers, and, YES, by Paul as well.

which clearly indicates that "John" is written for a whole new Religion, and one that is no longer monotheistic.

I don't get why people suggest that it was something new. It is central to a proper understanding of Jesus as presented in the scriptures, and is even what is understood as having been prophesied about by Isaiah. Hence the Suffering Servant of Isaiah is understood to be the model for Jesus' own ministry.
there is no indication in the New Testament that "the Church" actually converted the Sabbath from Saturday to a new Sunday event. there is also evidence that a "split" away from Judaism didn't occur in Palestine until the time of the Bar Kochba revolt in the early 2nd Century CE. see the transcript of From Jesus to Christ The First Christians, a Frontline special here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...c/script2.html

now, using this text of the didache:

http://www.logoschristian.org/didache.html

CHAPTER 11
11:1 Whosoever, therefore, shall come and teach you all these things aforesaid, him do ye receive;

11:2 but if the teacher himself turn and teach another doctrine with a view to subvert you, hearken not to him; but if he come to add to your righteousness, and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord.

11:3 But concerning the apostles and prophets, thus do ye according to the doctrine of the Gospel.

11:4 Let every apostle who cometh unto you be received as the Lord.

11:5 He will remain one day, and if it be necessary, a second; but if he remain three days, he is a false prophet.

11:6 And let the apostle when departing take nothing but bread until he arrive at his resting-place; but if he ask for money, he is a false prophet.
Acts 19

1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7And all the men were about twelve.

8And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Paul seems to have tarried here abit more than 3 days.

7Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.
and here we see Paul was accepting money.

this is just from a glance, but the more that you read the more you know you can have the Didache or Paul, but you can't have both!

:wa:
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