Hittings and beating in the madrasas

[mahi]

Salam, peace be with you

I had something to ask because I have no clue on this. I live in London, and around where I live there are quite a few madrasas. Now I have seen how they are, and have kids ranging anywhere from 5-15. I have met the teachers there, and they seem nice.

But one thing I cannot understand. Why do they hit and beat the children? That's what happens in the two Madrasas I have seen, and I'm sure it occurs elsewhere. The children, any of them, get slapped, hit with a stick, if they talk to others, give their reciting or some arabic wrong to the teacher..
There's also a lot of shouting and verbal attacks

And I now many will be like it is nothing. But it is. They are the young ones, when they grow up what will they associate with Islam? The beating they recieved for not being perfect? I know someone very close who has strayed from the path, and it hurts as I know a major reason is because of how they saw Islam as a younger in the madrasas.

Do the teachers not understand this? Is their any reason, Islamically or other wise that anyone can explain to me?

[Pk_#2]

Wassalam Alaykum,

Yup it is SO common, we moved our little sis to a different mosque because of it, and now we have to move her to another one because it happens in that one aswell, hopefully the new madrassa would be better for my sis, since they have younger teachers who I think understand about this more. I think. And HOPE!

And like you're saying the children get beaten up if they make mistakes or sutin, it's not like that here, you get beaten up for nothing, if one child is being annoying and my sister happens to be sitting next to her she'll get wacked on the head with a book too, and when you confront them about it, they say sorry, we're ashamed of it, but it will make them stronger =| oh and it's rewarding for the children =\

[GuestFellow]

Asslamu Aliakum.

Yeah...they shouldn't hit kids if they don't recite properly or if they made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. Beatings is not the answer. It's very harsh.

[Woodrow]

A good teacher is aware that a teacher does not teach anybody anything. A person learns, a person is not taught. A good teacher is one who understands children at what stage of learning they are in and presents material in the manner and method the child is ready to learn by.

Beating knowledge into a child does not work, if a child learns anything from that method of teaching, what they usually learn is how to avoid a beating by any means possible.

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[Rasema]

:sl:
Hmmm
Discipline and tolerance. Not that I agree with this but impressive. Reminds me of old times. But hey, look at the way we turned out and look at those who were slapped!

[Danah]

Salam, peace be with you

I had something to ask because I have no clue on this. I live in London, and around where I live there are quite a few madrasas. Now I have seen how they are, and have kids ranging anywhere from 5-15. I have met the teachers there, and they seem nice.

But one thing I cannot understand. Why do they hit and beat the children? That's what happens in the two Madrasas I have seen, and I'm sure it occurs elsewhere. The children, any of them, get slapped, hit with a stick, if they talk to others, give their reciting or some arabic wrong to the teacher..
There's also a lot of shouting and verbal attacks

And I now many will be like it is nothing. But it is. They are the young ones, when they grow up what will they associate with Islam? The beating they recieved for not being perfect? I know someone very close who has strayed from the path, and it hurts as I know a major reason is because of how they saw Islam as a younger in the madrasas.

Do the teachers not understand this? Is their any reason, Islamically or other wise that anyone can explain to me?

What kind of teaching is that? They should keep it easy at children when they learn, otherwise they will have their schools out of children!!!! and they will kick people away from learning Islam and Quran !!

[mahi]

:sl:
Hmmm
Discipline and tolerance. Not that I agree with this but impressive. Reminds me of old times. But hey, look at the way we turned out and look at those who were slapped!

Salam

I too remember the days of being beat when not being able to lead a practise prayer at the age of 8 or 9. How have we turned out?

And to everyone else who replied, I guess everyone would agree it is wrong. That's something I wanted to see firstly with the original post. My second point is this. If this occurs, what can one do? What would you recommend? Any thing to be said?
Because seriously, if any of those teachers make any one of my young sisters cry, I would not be able to bear it.

[Rasema]

Wa Salam

I too remember the days of being beat when not being able to lead a practise prayer at the age of 8 or 9. How have we turned out?

Non- practicing family.
All I'm saying is that children need some fear.

[Snowflake]

:sl: SubhanAllah, I've just finished asking someone advice on this matter.

This is a problem, probably a big one. I am seeing it in my son's school-madrasa. I feel totally disheartened as we were told they do not physically punish children. My son comes home and tells me how some of the kids get beat. These beatings/strikes are severe enough to make the kids cry and I'm sure 11 year old boys do not cry in front of their class mates if they can help it. I hate my son seeing all this and thinking muslims can be violent over the smallest things like a child forgetting his lesson. :heated:

[mahi]

Salam,

May I ask if you would be able to share any advice?

And I know and can share everything you said there.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

Not only in Madrasah , our Govt. run schools have same problems. Teachers believe that students must get punishment , otherwise they won't obey them or listen and study.

In many schools , there is a budget for buying stick to hit students :(

In a survey , more than 80 % students said they got physically punishment in schools.

[ardianto]

Salam,

May I ask if you would be able to share any advice?

And I know and can share everything you said there.

Salam, mahi. :)

Not every madrasa allows their teachers beat their students.

And my advice is, don't let kids study in a madrasa where the teachers beat their students. Chose another madrasa. Maybe if they lose their students, this madrasa would change their teaching style.

[Snowflake]

:sl: Akhi Mahi, I wanted to post this link yesterday, but it was late and I decided to leave until today. I advise you and others to contact the Muslim Parliament of GB. I am going to do the same inshaAllah. They have been fantastic in informing mosques/madrasahs of child protection laws with the aim to stop abuse of children. Obviously, some have either ignored the warning, or have been missed out.


If you open link below, you will see 'Child Protection in Faith Based Environments'. Everyone should bombard them with complaints. Also talk to other parents and approach the schools as one big group. If you go on your own, it makes it seem as if you are the only one with the problem and Allah forbid it makes things worse for your child.


http://www.muslimparliament.org.uk/


Let's make a big noise about it. We've got to make this stop inshaAllah.

:wa:

[Far7an]

Salam, peace be with you

I had something to ask because I have no clue on this. I live in London, and around where I live there are quite a few madrasas. Now I have seen how they are, and have kids ranging anywhere from 5-15. I have met the teachers there, and they seem nice.

But one thing I cannot understand. Why do they hit and beat the children? That's what happens in the two Madrasas I have seen, and I'm sure it occurs elsewhere. The children, any of them, get slapped, hit with a stick, if they talk to others, give their reciting or some arabic wrong to the teacher..
There's also a lot of shouting and verbal attacks

And I now many will be like it is nothing. But it is. They are the young ones, when they grow up what will they associate with Islam? The beating they recieved for not being perfect? I know someone very close who has strayed from the path, and it hurts as I know a major reason is because of how they saw Islam as a younger in the madrasas.

Do the teachers not understand this? Is their any reason, Islamically or other wise that anyone can explain to me?

Wa alaikum asalaam,

Brother, many if not all madaaris in UK do not allow any form of abuse anymore alhamdulillah. Those teachers that do, once reported to the heads of the madaaris are asked to leave and they are replaced. If you feel there is a problem, I suggest you speak to the individual in question or the principal of that madrassah and raise the issue with him.

:sl: Akhi Mahi, I wanted to post this link yesterday, but it was late and I decided to leave until today. I advise you and others to contact the Muslim Parliament of GB. I am going to do the same inshaAllah. They have been fantastic in informing mosques/madrasahs of child protection laws with the aim to stop abuse of children. Obviously, some have either ignored the warning, or have been missed out.


If you open link below, you will see 'Child Protection in Faith Based Environments'. Everyone should bombard them with complaints. Also talk to other parents and approach the schools as one big group. If you go on your own, it makes it seem as if you are the only one with the problem and Allah forbid it makes things worse for your child.


http://www.muslimparliament.org.uk/


Let's make a big noise about it. We've got to make this stop inshaAllah.

:wa:

I have become disillusioned with the "Muslim Parliament" after their bogus "Muslim Marriage Contract". Again, not my words.. but the words of Shaykh Haytham Haddad. See here for more info: Part 1, Part 2.

mahi, I don't know which city you reside in, but where I live we have a body which is recognised and respected by all the madaaris. This organisation (alongside the local council) has set up free training sessions for teachers and heads of madaaris in order to help deal with problemtic students without having to resort to any form of abuse, be it verbal or physical.

Perhaps you should see if any such organisation exists in your city? Or works towards starting one with some other concerned brothers and sisters inshaAllah?

[Snowflake]

:sl: Brother Far7an, I thank you for bringing that to our attention. I watched the whole 6 Parts. I had no idea and feel really disgusted at what they have done. I will still contact them with regards to the problem in mosques as they are doing a good job as far as that is concerned. But I will also voice my objection regarding the MMC. I hope others can do the same as if our brothers and sisters stray from the right Path, it is our duty to advise them inshaAllah. May Allah guide them. Ameen

:wa:

[Cabdullahi]

i used to get whippings at my madrasah but we bottled it....until we became fearless and started to say ''come on ustaji is that all you got !!''

[Snowflake]

^:ooh:

In my son's madrasah when a kid gets hit some some of them start chanting the NSPCC hotline number.

[cat eyes]

some of my friends husbands are a hafiz. they were born and raised in pakistan and they were beaten with a stick in class and stuff like this from an early age but they claim that if they had not gotton that disapline they would not know holy Qur'an today so i honestly do not know bro. it never had any mental effects on them. they are practicing muslims and treat my friends well and teach them holy Qur'an

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

:sl:

^^When a child, or anyone for that matter, is learning the Qur'an they should be enjoying it smiling, not learn out of fear. There should be a level of discipline of course, but not beat the tears out of kids...when they misbehave ok...punish some, but not for reasons such as making mistakes. We all struggle to learn, some struggle more than others..so beatings for that are totally uncalled for...

[Salahudeen]

^ but not many kids enjoy it they'd rather be with their friends or playing PS3 instead of memorising Qur'an. I for 1 when I was little used to hate going to the masjid every day after school, I jus wanted to get in and chill.

But I was forced to go and hated it, was just told to memorise a book that I didn't even understand, and didn't really hold any significant value in my young eyes.

The only thing I cared about was hanging out with friends and playing Play station.

You do get some kids who enjoy it though I think they've had an Islamic education right from the beginning as soon as they were born.

And they actually understand the importance of what their reading.

They're not just told to go and sit in a room and memorise a book that's in another language like I was.

but your right they shouldn't be beaten to tears especially not for making mistakes it would help if it was made clear to them the importance of what their doing and the great benefits behind it.

Not just force them to memorise a book they know nothing about or where it came from.

and the beatings just make the child begin to hate learning the Qur'an cos of the pressure they're put under. so defo not good.

[tango92]

i dont think its the physical pain of so much as the shame it causes the student. nearly always the student comes back with a stronger resolve to do better. - some of my freinds are hafidh

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^ but not many kids enjoy it they'd rather be with their friends or playing PS3 instead of memorising Qur'an. I for 1 when I was little used to hate going to the masjid every day after school, I jus wanted to get in and chill.

But I was forced to go and hated it, was just told to memorise a book that I didn't even understand, and didn't really hold any significant value in my young eyes.

The only thing I cared about was hanging out with friends and playing Play station.

You do get some kids who enjoy it though I think they've had an Islamic education right from the beginning as soon as they were born.

And they actually understand the importance of what their reading.

They're not just told to go and sit in a room and memorise a book that's in another language like I was.

but your right they shouldn't be beaten to tears especially not for making mistakes it would help if it was made clear to them the importance of what their doing and the great benefits behind it.

Not just force them to memorise a book they know nothing about or where it came from.

and the beatings just make the child begin to hate learning the Qur'an cos of the pressure they're put under. so defo not good.

Well thats why you should tell them about it too...not just stuff them there. You mentioned an important point there. If one has no introduction beforehand, how will they understand?

My bros and I, we used to go as kids to this lady who taught Quran. She'd be teaching her children at the same time. She was strict but never beat us. When we messed up, she'd help us, not beat us. I loved loved going. When I used to go home, I'd give myself some more. She used to give us a line at a time. I'd memorize that one and tell her to give me more.

So really there is a difference...it's like beating a dyslexic child because he or she has trouble reading. I dont know why people want ot justify this kind of act, it's not right man. There should always be a level discipline, jus as you would have in a normal classroom. If they misbehave, I can understand a punishment, but if a child is really trying and struggling, he or she messes up, you're gunna beat them? Seriously.

Not everyone is the same. I dont think its right that one learns the Quran only out of fear instead of enjoyment.

[abdullah_001]

Salam, peace be with you

I had something to ask because I have no clue on this. I live in London, and around where I live there are quite a few madrasas. Now I have seen how they are, and have kids ranging anywhere from 5-15. I have met the teachers there, and they seem nice.

But one thing I cannot understand. Why do they hit and beat the children? That's what happens in the two Madrasas I have seen, and I'm sure it occurs elsewhere. The children, any of them, get slapped, hit with a stick, if they talk to others, give their reciting or some arabic wrong to the teacher..
There's also a lot of shouting and verbal attacks

And I now many will be like it is nothing. But it is. They are the young ones, when they grow up what will they associate with Islam? The beating they recieved for not being perfect? I know someone very close who has strayed from the path, and it hurts as I know a major reason is because of how they saw Islam as a younger in the madrasas.

Do the teachers not understand this? Is their any reason, Islamically or other wise that anyone can explain to me?

:sl:

The questioning of our teachers, in my opinion, comes from the lack of respect we have developed for our teachers in our societies.

I remember my molvisaab beating us when we were around 7 or 8. We used to live in Jeddah and at the time we all (3 brothers) thought he was very harsh. Our molvisaab had to go somewhere for a week and his replacement was even harsher lol, I remember I was learning Surah Humazah and for some reason I had a very hard time memorizing it but guess which Surah I like a lot now? :p

I think punishment instills discipline in children which is very helpful for when they grow up. Perhaps it our different cultural upbringing that distorts our views of manners and etiquette of others but we must realize that a parent is allowed to discipline their kids if necessary regarding prayers once the kids reaches the age of 7.

It is Allah who guides and it is Allah who misguides, I met our molvisaab 2 years after that. We had moved from Jeddah to Taa'if, and used to visit our cousins who lived in Jeddah, and from there to Makkah. Wallahi, I saw my molvisaab in the Masjid by our apartment (in Jeddah) praying and in a state of prostration. He then came to us and we spoke briefly but alhamdulillah he was the best teacher I ever had.

"Rights of your Ustaadh and Sheikh

As your Ustaadh and Sheikh are with regard to your internal (character) up bringing, like your father, therefore treat them, their family and relatives as you would treat your father, your immediate family and relatives. From this we understand the need for honouring and respecting our Elders, Sheikhs and teachers. From here a very important point emerges. The students or mureeds are in the category of children of the Sheikh or Ustaadh respectively, their rights with each other are similar to those of brothers and sisters. "

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=13819

Also, Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu Alaihi wa sallam) said, "The best of you are the ones who learn the Qur'an and teach it to others." (Bukhari)

:wa:

[Snowflake]

^:sl: I so agree with you sis Light of Heaven. I've always wondered why muallims don't realise that children listen and learn in a normal school without having to be beaten, and yet in the mosque they assume a child won't learn if he/she isn't beaten for being naughty, slow or forgetting their lesson. Well........ we can all moan about it til the cows come home or we can actually advise them and if they don't stop threaten to report them. Having said that I'm going to my son's madrasa tomorrow with a list of complaints - selling high energy drinks to pupils. SubhanAllah as if kids arent hyper enough. :heated:

[Snowflake]

:sl:

The questioning of our teachers, in my opinion, comes from the lack of respect we have developed for our teachers in our societies.

Not necessarily. people abuse their position all the time. Teachers aren't infallible brother. I have instilled in my son respect for teachers, muslim and non muslim, from when he was in primary school. But some teachers today barely reflect the early teachers of knowledge in their piety and wisdom. It is in mosques and madrasa that children have been subjected to sexual molestation and physical abuse, not to mention death in some countries. In today's times we can't close our eyes just because someone is in a position of respect and authority. I do not want my son, to be struck in the chest or stomach by a man twice his size. May Allah protect him and all children from such teachers. Ameen.

The other aspect is that Islam teaches gentleness. Children do as children see. How can you teach children that Allah loves those who are merciful to others when the last thing they are showing to children is mercy? It's hypocrisy. Thirdly, in the West at least, we could be threatened with closure of mosques/madrasas if children continue to be abused there. These places know the Law, yet are ignoring it. That is foolish when you know the consequences. If we want to preserve our islamic heritage of teaching institutions in the West, then we'd better help change the way things are currently done.

As your Ustaadh and Sheikh are with regard to your internal (character) up bringing, like your father, therefore treat them, their family and relatives as you would treat your father, your immediate family and relatives.

Yes, that's what parents should teach their children. But when it is not done, it still doesn't make it right for the teacher to hit a child. I'm beginning to think mosques/madrasas need to employ child (educational) psychologists to help teachers understand how to help a child without resorting to anger and violence.

I saw my molvisaab in the Masjid by our apartment (in Jeddah) praying and in a state of prostration. He then came to us and we spoke briefly but alhamdulillah he was the best teacher I ever had.

That view is unique to you. It's not what happens generally. I asked my son how the children who are hit behave afterwards. Meaning did the beating have a good effect on them or not. He tells me that they say they hate that teacher etc etc. Will a child absorb any knowledge from a teacher he hates? I am surprised that such teachers who have the blessing of ilm seem to be ignorant when it comes to understanding the human psyche.


:wa:

[cat eyes]

haha oh yea i had forgot to mention the teachers use to make them run around like chickens for embarrassment if they made a mistake ;D and if they did not go to mosque the teacher would send out one of the boys to go to there home and get them loooooool oh man i never laughed so much in my life when my friend told me that about her husband i was in tears laughing

[Rabi'ya]

:sl:

I am a firm believer that one should do things out of love not out of fear. that goes for faith, respecting ones parents, education everything. And it's how a child is brought up which means the difference between whether they want to and understand the reward of it and whether they think its a waste of time and have no respect.

My father never laid a finger on my brothers or I, yet we knew exactly when we crossed the line. Respect is earnt and not beaten into someone.

IF a parent hit their child with a stick what would be your reaction? Would you turn a blind eye?

Personally, I doubt it very much, yet because they are in a mosque everything gets shut away and people cover up.

Disgusting!

(after thought - my husand got beat in mosque and he has scars on his body from it so those memories will never fade. Everytime he sees them he remmbers the beatings and why...? because he didnt recite in the right way, or at the right speed, i mean come on!!!)

[cat eyes]

yeah but what is right and what is wrong surely we cannot say only Allah knows really at the end of the day only Allah will judge those teachers on the day of judgement. we know that if they can teach one boy all of the holy Qur'an and they teach it to others they will surely be rewarded.

[Maryan0]

I agree with those that say it instills discipline, getting beat particularly in somali madrassahs is considered perfectly normal, matter of fact my mother would encourage the teacher to beat us if we did not know are quran or came late. There are some teachers that are sadistic and take it too far but they are in the minority. none of the pakistani or arab teachers I have had have ever beaten us though I always assumed only somali teachers did.
Anyways the things i've learned in those madrassahs I have never forgotten.
salam

[Snowflake]

^:sl: How do you put a limit on beatings? pakistani teachers have only gone and killed children in Pakistan. :-\

Sis Rabiya, that is truly awful for your husband. May Allah reward him for his suffering. Ameen.

[Maryan0]

^my teachers only hit us on the hands/palms with a belt or a stick once or twice depending on the situation, maybe beating was too strong a word. boys however got it worse.
There are some teachers that leave kids with bruises and scars broken limbs etc. that would be taking it too far.
salam

[Cabdullahi]

I had a female teacher when i was a child i'll tell you straight they are more brutal than the ustaji's.....assorted pinches....sharp end of rulers on knuckles....360 degree ear twisting....starvation through no lunch breaks.......We could challenge ustaji but you couldnt do it with the female teacher

[cat eyes]

yeah breaking of the bones is taking it to far i agree. though sometimes id feel like smacking a young boy myself when i see them dragging out of there mother screaming and kicking her all because he dose not want to enter into the mosque :raging: i mean seriously there has to be limits and kids are not easy to handle you know of course its easy for us to judge them because none of us are the teachers

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

:sl:

You can't put good students and bad students in the same category. Why do good students need to suffer? I'm gunna get beat if I'm struggling to learn? How is that a good thing? Use discipline when necessary, not when you feel like it. If I was a little kid going to a school where I got beat, I'd fear going there all the time. But because I had a decent teacher, I loved going cause she was kind and helpful, she didnt ever touch me. When I made a mistake, she corrected me. I dont really care what people think honestly. If you think beating a child for a mistake or coming late, then there's a PROBLEM. There could be reasons that are oblivious to you. If you beat them for stupid reasons then you need help. If that was my child, I'd be on their case. Punish them when needed, not when they are trying to learn but have trouble. This is utter nonsense. Don't expect respect if you cant do the same, that's my opinion anyway. What happened to compassion?

[Snowflake]

:sl:

I dont really care what people think honestly. If you think beating a child for a mistake or coming late, then there's a PROBLEM. There could be reasons that are oblivious to you. If you beat them for stupid reasons then you need help.

Bang on sis! Kids can be experiencing so many problems at home. Many probably come from dysfunctional families, or mothers suffering from depression, or just being neglectful. Teachers should understand this and assess each child individually. But I feel mad at parents who never teach their kids any manners and when they start answering them back then they decide they should send them to madrasas so the teachers can fix them. Education begins at home. Don't they realise this.

[Sampharo]

Disciplining a child islamically is not wrong, but this matter is not exactly left for moods and people's personal frustrations either, it is a systematic approach, and by experience and research it has been shown that it works.

In Islam, smacking or lightly hitting a child while disciplining and teaching is not only allowed, but encouraged.

يؤدّب الصّبيّ بالأمر بأداء الفرائض والنّهي عن المنكرات بالقول ، ثمّ الوعيد ، ثمّ التّعنيف ، ثمّ الضّرب ، إن لم تجد الطّرق المذكورة قبله ، ولا يضرب الصّبيّ لترك الصّلاة إلاّ إذا بلغ عشر سنين.
لحديث: « مروا أولادكم بالصّلاة وهم أبناء سبع سنين ، واضربوهم عليها وهم أبناء عشر سنين ، وفرّقوا بينهم في المضاجع » .
ولا يجاوز ثلاثاً عند الحنفيّة والمالكيّة والحنابلة.
وهي أيضاً على التّرتيب ، فلا يرقى إلى مرتبة إذا كان ما قبلها يفي بالغرض وهو الإصلاح.

"A child is disciplined to enforce carrying out obligations and avoiding what is forbidden: Starting with telling them, then warning them, then scolding, then hitting if the earlier doesn't work. A child is not hit for leaving prayer until he reaches the age of 10, for the prophet's hadith -pbuh- : "teach them prayer when they reach 7, hit them on neglecting it when they reach 10, and divide between them (males and females) in bed." Hitting the child should not be more than three times (per session or day) under general consensus of Maliki, Hanafee, and Hanbali jurisprudence. Each step of discipline needs to be carried out by order and not taken if the step before achieves the required result which is reform."

The hitting should be non-injury causing nor bruising. As I remember personally a Quran-teacher friend was explaining that he slaps loud, with an aim to make a sudden loud noise that not only attracts attention, but also sets in his memory, and the pain should be an associated "sting", no more and no less.

There is an Arabic poetry line that reads:

لا تندمنَّ على الصبيان إن ضُربوا**** فالضرب يفنى ويبقى العلم والأدبُ

Don't regret on young boys if they are smacked****for the slaps dissipate while knowledge and discipline remain (for a lifetime)



And God knows best

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

But we aren't even talking about light hits here. People take it too far and that's the main issue here. At least, thats what I'm talking about. I havent denied discipline, we all need it. I'd rather get smacked by my mother than my teacher. For one, I donno who the heck you are (as a teacher) so your smacking will only make me mad. I got enough from my mom, don't need any from an outsider lol.

You might say, see beating worked. Well it did, cause she did it when it was necessary. What some teachers do is nonsense.

[Cabdullahi]

There's disciplinary beating which is moderate like a small tap on the hands of the pupil and there's showmanship or flexing the arms which is the full throttle and thats not acceptable

[Snowflake]

^exactly! A man can't even hit his wife in a way that leaves a mark. So there's no way it'd be allowed for a child.

[Rasema]

:sl:
Good reply brother Sampharo. It satisfies everyone.
:wa:

[Snowflake]

^:sl: With due respect, the reply is on matters of discipline in general. Whereas we are talking about physical abuse where children are caused a lot of pain.

[Rasema]

:sl:

The hitting should be non-injury causing nor bruising. As I remember personally a Quran-teacher friend was explaining that he slaps loud, with an aim to make a sudden loud noise that not only attracts attention, but also sets in his memory, and the pain should be an associated "sting", no more and no less.

:sl:
Next time, a look by his teacher will be sufficient. JK
:wa:

[Woodrow]

Disciplining a child islamically is not wrong, but this matter is not exactly left for moods and people's personal frustrations either, it is a systematic approach, and by experience and research it has been shown that it works.

In Islam, smacking or lightly hitting a child while disciplining and teaching is not only allowed, but encouraged.

يؤدّب الصّبيّ بالأمر بأداء الفرائض والنّهي عن المنكرات بالقول ، ثمّ الوعيد ، ثمّ التّعنيف ، ثمّ الضّرب ، إن لم تجد الطّرق المذكورة قبله ، ولا يضرب الصّبيّ لترك الصّلاة إلاّ إذا بلغ عشر سنين.
لحديث: « مروا أولادكم بالصّلاة وهم أبناء سبع سنين ، واضربوهم عليها وهم أبناء عشر سنين ، وفرّقوا بينهم في المضاجع » .
ولا يجاوز ثلاثاً عند الحنفيّة والمالكيّة والحنابلة.
وهي أيضاً على التّرتيب ، فلا يرقى إلى مرتبة إذا كان ما قبلها يفي بالغرض وهو الإصلاح.

"A child is disciplined to enforce carrying out obligations and avoiding what is forbidden: Starting with telling them, then warning them, then scolding, then hitting if the earlier doesn't work. A child is not hit for leaving prayer until he reaches the age of 10, for the prophet's hadith -pbuh- : "teach them prayer when they reach 7, hit them on neglecting it when they reach 10, and divide between them (males and females) in bed." Hitting the child should not be more than three times (per session or day) under general consensus of Maliki, Hanafee, and Hanbali jurisprudence. Each step of discipline needs to be carried out by order and not taken if the step before achieves the required result which is reform."

The hitting should be non-injury causing nor bruising. As I remember personally a Quran-teacher friend was explaining that he slaps loud, with an aim to make a sudden loud noise that not only attracts attention, but also sets in his memory, and the pain should be an associated "sting", no more and no less.

There is an Arabic poetry line that reads:

لا تندمنَّ على الصبيان إن ضُربوا**** فالضرب يفنى ويبقى العلم والأدبُ

Don't regret on young boys if they are smacked****for the slaps dissipate while knowledge and discipline remain (for a lifetime)



And God knows best

Physical Reinforcement is an extremely effective teaching tool if done properly, with love and by knowledgeable caring teachers.

But sadly it often becomes the tool of choice by ignorant, sadistic teachers who misuse it as an outlet for their own frustration at being unable to teach.

To use corporal discipline by an ignorant person is tantamount to brutality and does not teach anything except hate.

Paradoxically an ideal teacher who sincerely knows how to instill the love of learning and is knowledgeable in the proper usage of physical discipline will seldom, if ever, have the need to utilize physical discipline. The students will become avid enthusiastic learners and develop a thirst for knowledge.

On the other hand the teachers who tend to use physical discipline the most are often those least capable of teaching.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Perfect answer! JazakAllah Khair

:sl:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

:sl:
Good reply brother Sampharo. It satisfies everyone.
:wa:

:sl:

That's the general idea of discipline. We are discussing something contrary to these actions, that should be taken...

[~Raindrop~]

I had a female teacher when i was a child i'll tell you straight they are more brutal than the ustaji's.....assorted pinches....sharp end of rulers on knuckles....360 degree ear twisting....starvation through no lunch breaks.......We could challenge ustaji but you couldnt do it with the female teacher

lol i couldnt agree more.

our teacher had a wooden spoon on the radiator...lol not that she ever used it, but it was enough to keep us going lol. as far as i remember, she only ever hit her own kids...and she wasnt about to break their bones.

that said, i wouldnt dream of hitting my students!

cant ever mess with females lol

[Rasema]

:sl:

That's the general idea of discipline. We are discussing something contrary to these actions, that should be taken...

:wa:


You mean that we know how to discipline children better than the Ulma:

The children, any of them, get slapped, hit with a stick, if they talk to others, give their reciting or some arabic wrong to the teacher..
There's also a lot of shouting and verbal attacks

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont think you understood my post.

What bro Sampharo said is what people need to follow. What I said was, some act contrary to it.

[cat eyes]

Disciplining a child islamically is not wrong, but this matter is not exactly left for moods and people's personal frustrations either, it is a systematic approach, and by experience and research it has been shown that it works.

In Islam, smacking or lightly hitting a child while disciplining and teaching is not only allowed, but encouraged.

يؤدّب الصّبيّ بالأمر بأداء الفرائض والنّهي عن المنكرات بالقول ، ثمّ الوعيد ، ثمّ التّعنيف ، ثمّ الضّرب ، إن لم تجد الطّرق المذكورة قبله ، ولا يضرب الصّبيّ لترك الصّلاة إلاّ إذا بلغ عشر سنين.
لحديث: « مروا أولادكم بالصّلاة وهم أبناء سبع سنين ، واضربوهم عليها وهم أبناء عشر سنين ، وفرّقوا بينهم في المضاجع » .
ولا يجاوز ثلاثاً عند الحنفيّة والمالكيّة والحنابلة.
وهي أيضاً على التّرتيب ، فلا يرقى إلى مرتبة إذا كان ما قبلها يفي بالغرض وهو الإصلاح.

"A child is disciplined to enforce carrying out obligations and avoiding what is forbidden: Starting with telling them, then warning them, then scolding, then hitting if the earlier doesn't work. A child is not hit for leaving prayer until he reaches the age of 10, for the prophet's hadith -pbuh- : "teach them prayer when they reach 7, hit them on neglecting it when they reach 10, and divide between them (males and females) in bed." Hitting the child should not be more than three times (per session or day) under general consensus of Maliki, Hanafee, and Hanbali jurisprudence. Each step of discipline needs to be carried out by order and not taken if the step before achieves the required result which is reform."

The hitting should be non-injury causing nor bruising. As I remember personally a Quran-teacher friend was explaining that he slaps loud, with an aim to make a sudden loud noise that not only attracts attention, but also sets in his memory, and the pain should be an associated "sting", no more and no less.

There is an Arabic poetry line that reads:

لا تندمنَّ على الصبيان إن ضُربوا**** فالضرب يفنى ويبقى العلم والأدبُ

Don't regret on young boys if they are smacked****for the slaps dissipate while knowledge and discipline remain (for a lifetime)



And God knows best

yeah this is what i strongly believe or trying to put across but you said it best like i feel that either people are to westernized or americanized or what ever or maybe they forget that as a islamic teacher and wanting the best for the child you have to encourage discipline and we seriously have to put our trust in these teachers to ensure a good future for our ummah. i tell you now id rather have somebody lightly beat knowledge into me then beat me for no reason and its only ignorance if you question the authority! i believe they know what there doing so leave it here

[Rasema]

yeah this is what i strongly believe or trying to put across but you said it best like i feel that either people are to westernized or americanized or what ever or maybe they forget that as a islamic teacher and wanting the best for the child you have to encourage discipline and we seriously have to put our trust in these teachers to ensure a good future for our ummah. i tell you now id rather have somebody lightly beat knowledge into me then beat me for no reason and its only ignorance if you question the authority! i believe they know what there doing so leave it here
__________________

:sl:
Fnally, something we agree on.:statisfie

i believe they know what there doing so leave it here
Yes, our Ulma knows best after Allah and the Prophet,saws.
I love you.

[Rabi'ya]

:sl:

the issue i dont feel is abotu hitting. its about the force used. and the reasons for it.

I have spoken to many people who have said they have been hit for reading one letter wrong, or turning up late(yet the parents bring them).

ok i mean if kids are being rude, or unruly or showing disrespect.

[Muezzin]

Hitting (your own) child because the child was being rude, disrespectful, and otherwise maliciously misbehaving? Personally, I'm okay with that in extreme cases.

Hitting (not this light slap business) a child because the child failed to recite a verse/failed a test or is otherwise finding an aspect of their education difficult? It solves nothing and can actually make matters worse.

As Mr Miyagi once said: 'No such thing as bad student. Only bad teacher.'

[Ansariyah]

I had a female teacher when i was a child i'll tell you straight they are more brutal than the ustaji's.....assorted pinches....sharp end of rulers on knuckles....360 degree ear twisting....starvation through no lunch breaks.......We could challenge ustaji but you couldnt do it with the female teacher

lol Seriously they twist ears..:ooh:

I bet u were a right cheeky/trouble'maker as a kid.

We use to have a male teacher for Quraan he use to come to our house n teach us among other neighbourhood kids, it was fun. Best Quraan teacher everr! we didnt go to madrasas, Good thing i havent after reading here wat goes on there.:exhausted

[Karl]

I think it's up to the father if they want their offspring physically punished at the Madrasas. The father if he does not want his progeny to be hit can tell the teacher "If you hit my Boy or Girl then I will beat you" another father may say the opposite "My offspring are awfully behaved obnoxious louts give them lot's of beatings to put them on the right path"
This socialist kind of ideology that some of you speak like "this should be that and this and that should be this blah hitting shoudn't be allowed.. levels of hitting blah blah"
Leave it all up to the father to decide...some are strict and some are soft. But it isn't "societys" business.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Hitting (your own) child because the child was being rude, disrespectful, and otherwise maliciously misbehaving? Personally, I'm okay with that in extreme cases.

Hitting (not this light slap business) a child because the child failed to recite a verse/failed a test or is otherwise finding an aspect of their education difficult? It solves nothing and can actually make matters worse.

As Mr Miyagi once said: 'No such thing as bad student. Only bad teacher.'

Bingo :thumbs_up

[S_87]

old school mentality that beating works. i remember the cheeks being pulled/the big stick hitting and the pen between finger days :rolleyes: oh and having to stand in the ruku position for a longggggg time. its heartbreaking to see kids getting beaten for having a stutter or not being able to learn quick enough though Alhumdulillah this is changing.

(on a side note, kids these days could do with some discipline)

[Snowflake]

:sl: To those advocating beatings to educate children,... please gimme a break. Beating is applied when a child refuses to learn, not for forgetting/stuttering or being a child, yaani naughty. From what you're saying a nervous child deserves to get beat. I once had to confront a molvi for pinching my friend's little 4 year old daughter. Would you allow a man to pinch your child and cause them pain and bruising? Don't be mistaken into thinking these teachers are Ulmas. Some are only qualified to teach the Quran and even more are unqualified yet doing it anyway - and doing it wrong.

This isn't about being westernised either. There are two issues here. Unnecessary beating/verbal abuse is one of them, which is not helping children to become good muslims. Isn't that the purpose of learning al Quran? The other is the possible threat of closure of mosques/madrasahs. One man has already been reported and is now paying the price.

Mosque teacher sentenced for hitting pupils

October 20, 2009

A PREACHER who slapped three children for giggling as they read the Koran in a mosque has been ordered to do unpaid community work.

Ghulam Sarwar, 44, was told by magistrates that he had abused his position of trust.

Sarwar, who has no previous convictions, was found guilty after a trial last month of three counts of common assault by beating.

Slapped

Manchester magistrates court heard he slapped two of the boys about the head with a flat hand and the other in the ear.

Tess Kenyon, prosecuting, said a leaf had blown on to a copy of the Koran all three were supposed to be reading. One boy tried to smell it but it stuck to his nose, causing them to laugh.

Sarwar, of Avondale Street, Cheetham Hill, was ordered to complete 250 hours of unpaid work and pay court costs of £930.

Henry Fenton chairman of the bench, said: "These were young victims, children. We see this as an abuse of a position of trust."

Ms Kenyon told the court that the mother of one of the boys complained to police in March after her son told her what happened.

Her husband had complained previously to another mosque about a similar allegation, the court heard.

Ms Kenyon said: "Both boys were video interviewed and both boys gave very similar accounts about what had occurred.

"They detailed that a leaf had blown onto a copy of the Koran. They started to laugh.

(Sarwar) came over to them and another child sat next to them. They were hit by a flat palm to the head. One was hit to the ear and the other two to the head."

The court heard Sarwar denied the allegations on arrest and told police he was aware of the law.

A victim impact statement from one mother was read out to the court.

Disgusted

In it she said: "I am disgusted.... the law in this country states that you cannot hit or injure a child.

"I was, and still am, frightened about getting the police involved but what sort of message would I be sending my children. I have to show them that they can trust their mother."

An appeal against Sarwar's convictions has been lodged.

Barry Cuttle, defending, said: "This is a man of absolutely excellent character.

"He reacted wrongly. He lost his temper, which he cannot do.

http://www.theasiannews.co.uk/news/s...hitting_pupils

How does that look for the muslims? Why do we have to stick out like a sore thumb? We have the best religion. The best way of life. Why isn't this being reflected in the way we do things? Why must muslims bring humiliation to themselves? Islam allowed light beating for refusal to learn. It did not allow abuse!

I tried to stay quiet about this, but the ignorance and false views of some people about teachers has made me speak up.

One of the teachers at my son's madrasa, is from pakistan. He has been abusing children verbally by calling them names pakistanis use to insult people who are of dark a complexion, fat and even calls the children by their full real name and then at the end adds the names of indian actors or makes some up. He makes sarcastic remarks and copies the children sarcastically when they pronounce a word wrong. Is that befitting of a teacher teaching al Quran. Please don't make me laugh. Children have been struck in the stomach, head, chest and God they hate him.Three and a half hours of this every morning? :cry: May Allah bless them.

I feel sick to hearing all this and to ask my son how his day was. I am supposed to be telling my son not to mention the faults of others. Yet when my son is in the care of a brute, I am not going to sit there and close my eyes pretending it's all right while knowing my son could be hurt for something like forgetting his lesson. Have you even received a blow to the stomach? Probably not. Maybe that's why you think it's no big deal.


I'm collecting as much advice/material as possible and trying to contact other parents to approach the school and get the head to advise the teacher/issue a warning if he doesn't take heed, and if it continues to be expelled. I have worked hard to mentally prepare my son from when he attended a normal primary school to going to a madrasa. Alhamdulillah he is doing so well. I'm not going to let some ignorant and aggressive cold hearted teacher ruin his and other children's journey to learning al Quran & Islam. If he doesn't employ alternative methods of discipline and punishment for those who truly misbehave or are rude to him, then I'm afraid I have no choice but to push for his removal or inform the authorities of his misconduct.

:wa:

[cat eyes]

sister i agree with your post however children are good at telling a few false tails here and there like i worked with a woman who's 9 year old child accused her fiance of slapping him she then broke off the engagement but she found out later it was all a big fat lie also i am fully aware that there is bad eggs everywhere like you will find good teachers and then you will find Aggressive ones but i believe on that little important rule you need prove to convict somebody of child abuse it is a very big word imagine on judgement day a man was totally innocent after all??

after getting his status in the community ruined how could you take a childs word for it? you need evidence you need hard solid prove and they would more then likely have to have a past conviction from abusing another child as 90percent of abusers normally do as for the insulting that is wrong but then i would take my child out of that place or have a word with the person who's over the place to have a word with him or give him a warning.

[Far7an]

Children only do what they see from others. Their minds are like sponges, they'll absorb everything.

Parents want their kids to become huffadh and never commit any sin when they themselves can't attend the compulsory prayers in the masjid.

[cat eyes]

Children only do what they see from others. Their minds are like sponges, they'll absorb everything.

Parents want their kids to become huffadh and never commit any sin when they themselves can't attend the compulsory prayers in the masjid.

thats very true

[Woodrow]

I tink the problem lies in the fault of the individual instructors. Some see physical discipline as being effective and proper and permitted if done in the guidlines of the Qur'an and Ahadeeth. Those teachers will act with caution and love using physical discipline sparingly and only when specifiaclly needed. Other teahers interpret it as meaning it is required to use physical discipline on all children and is the only method of teaching.

So the guidline to use is the local communities need to be certain the teachrs are effective teachers who do not transgress beyond the levels permitted. In other words, parents need to be protectors of their children and not automatically assume a teacher is a good teacher because she/he uses the title of teacher.

Concerned, caring parents who live with guidance are the key to having good effective teachers in a community.

[cat eyes]

sis scents of jannah

what i actually meant by parents being to westernized is that nowadays they think that a slap on the hand or wrist or hit with a pen on the fingers is child abuse sister which is absolutely disgraceful and sickens me to accuse a knowledge man/woman who gave ther life to teaching kids holy Qur'an and teaches it the only way they know and then we have these people who are so far away from islam calling the cops to come down and put the hand cuffs on him/her as if they are criminals?? they don't feel any shame that i see with my own eyes in the west children calling the police on there own parents you tell me is it right sister??because the western society influence them. where do we draw the line?? we will give everybody to much freedom will we and let them do what they want because its not modern to discipline a child anymore. who are we to judge who are we to call somebody a child abuser when we have probably slapped our own child ourselves for misbehaving in front of his elders. Allah will know the true abusers on the day of judgement

[Snowflake]

[QUOTE]

sister i agree with your post however children are good at telling a few false tails here and there like i worked with a woman who's 9 year old child accused her fiance of slapping him she then broke off the engagement but she found out later it was all a big fat lie also i am fully aware that there is bad eggs everywhere like you will find good teachers and then you will find Aggressive ones but i believe on that little important rule you need prove to convict somebody of child abuse it is a very big word imagine on judgement day a man was totally innocent after all??

after getting his status in the community ruined how could you take a childs word for it? you need evidence you need hard solid prove and they would more then likely have to have a past conviction from abusing another child as 90percent of abusers normally do as for the insulting that is wrong but then i would take my child out of that place or have a word with the person who's over the place to have a word with him or give him a warning.

:sl: Are you trying to hint that my son is telling lies? Since I am hearing this from him? Let me clear this for you and not because he is my son. But because it's the truth. Firstly, my son is not one of the children who's being hit. In the beginning, I feared my son would not adjust to the ten and a half hour day at madrasa and I was prepared to go and sit there until he got used to it. Secondly, my son only mentioned what he did because when I enrolled him there, a sister who's very young child was learning Quran there told me they did not hit children. We had assumed this applied to the learning in the Madrasah. But no it was about some other class held at the madrasah. So when my son started going there and saw kids being hit, he said, "I thought they didn't hit kids there." He was not telling tales. Just confused. I was shocked and asked, "They hit them?" His answer was yes. My son doesn't need to tell tales as he has no reason to. Despite what he sees, he loves learning and comes home and teaches me what I don't know - even forces me! If I say I'm tired he tells me if he can do it for three and a half hours a day so can I. He's has been praying five times daily long before he started madrasah but before I had to remind him. Now he does it himself. He shares his new found knowledge with me with enthusiasm. Does this sound to you like a kid who is telling tales in the hope of getting out of school or trouble?

The verbal abuse came to my attention when he asked me what a certain word meant as he doesn't know all pakistani words. It was an insulting word and I asked him where he'd heard it from. He said the teacher was saying it to a boy. He never told me the teacher added extra names to his name too when he called him to read out his lesson. I asked, and then he told me. I stayed quiet because if I'd shown him I was angry, it would've probably rubbed off on him. I won't even allow my son to disrespect bad teachers. I will deal with them myself.


This is how I have learnt what I have. Not from my son telling tales. So please think before you give hints like that. If my son does wrong I will punish him. But I won't have people who don't know my son suggest to me that they know him better than I do.

Children only do what they see from others. Their minds are like sponges, they'll absorb everything.

Parents want their kids to become huffadh and never commit any sin when they themselves can't attend the compulsory prayers in the masjid.

That is the biggest problem in our community. I can't stand parents who have never taught their kids respect for their elders, teachers and anyone else. It's when these start back-chatting their parents they show them the door to the madrasa. It's these kids who provoke the teachers anger and they should be dealt with severely. But some kids are beaten when they are not even misbehaving. But again, they should not be beating, as it's not fair for the other kids to see and feel fearful or even hateful of their teacher. But adults should know better and be in control of themselves. There has to be some sort of program to help these children see that their behavior is unacceptable and damaging to themselves. There is no use crying over split milk. If parents have failed to do what they should have then as a madrasa is a place of learning, the teachers should for the sake of them becoming good muslims try and help them change their behavior. Children love to learn. But even an enthusiastic child will lose interest in a harsh and unfriendly environment. You said it yourself. Children do what children see. I fear for the next generation of adults - some who will end up teaching in mosques beating children just as they used to be beaten themselves.

Woodrow;1233728]I tink the problem lies in the fault of the individual instructors. Some see physical discipline as being effective and proper and permitted if done in the guidlines of the Qur'an and Ahadeeth. Those teachers will act with caution and love using physical discipline sparingly and only when specifiaclly needed. Other teahers interpret it as meaning it is required to use physical discipline on all children and is the only method of teaching


So the guidline to use is the local communities need to be certain the teachrs are effective teachers who do not transgress beyond the levels permitted. In other words, parents need to be protectors of their children and not automatically assume a teacher is a good teacher because she/he uses the title of teacher.

Concerned, caring parents who live with guidance are the key to having good effective teachers in a community.

MashaAllah, what a sensible post! There are no guidelines at present, and every teacher seems to be able to do as he pleases. A little girl was sexually abused by one of the ustaad's at a nearby moque thank God action was taken and he was fired. Since then they have female teachers in a separate building for the girls. But that is just one mosque. There needs to be an umbrella organisation which monitors, mentors, checks potential teachers backgrounds and set guidelines on how to deal with problems. But who is going to do that? Any muslim who has some power and authority to help a community is stuck in some TV studio with yet another talk about muslims should do this and that. But no one actively gets up and does it. Everyone wants to preach. But no one wants to practice. There are influential personalities who can do more but they don't. They are like autumn trees. You can sit on their branches, but they don't provide any shade.

sis scents of jannah
what i actually meant by parents being to westernized is that nowadays they think that a slap on the hand or wrist or hit with a pen on the fingers is child abuse sister which is absolutely disgraceful and sickens me to accuse a knowledge man/woman who gave ther life to teaching kids holy Qur'an and teaches it the only way they know and then we have these people who are so far away from islam calling the cops to come down and put the hand cuffs on him/her as if they are criminals?? they don't feel any shame that i see with my own eyes in the west children calling the police on there own parents you tell me is it right sister??because the western society influence them. where do we draw the line?? we will give everybody to much freedom will we and let them do what they want because its not modern to discipline a child anymore. who are we to judge who are we to call somebody a child abuser when we have probably slapped our own child ourselves for misbehaving in front of his elders. Allah will know the true abusers on the day of judgement

The point I'm trying to make it that children should not be BEATEN > like so :hiding: for being forgetful, slow and even a little naughty at school. You cannot whack a child with a rolled up magazine and tell him to read a verse telling man to be merciful to others. Do you get the point? This isn't about accusing one individual. It's a general problem. It is abuse and encourages children to insult others in public too. Those children who are rude and disruptive should be taken out of class. Because a teacher in a bad mood treats other children badly too. The child's parents should be called in. And the problem behind the child's behaviour identified. Parents need to advised where needed. If the atmosphere at home is unislamic and the parents themselves have no standards when it comes to islamic morals and etiquette then the child will follow their lead and be under the impression that the teachers will put up with them just like their parents do. This has nothing to do with the West. This problem is ours and existed long before child protection laws came into act. Instead of brushing it under the carpet we should be trying to solve it. And to do that we have to stop living under the illusion that all teachers are capable of doing their job properly. Bad parents and bad teachers are more dangerous to the muslim community than our enemies.




:wa:

[Salahudeen]

I think it's really hard for anyone who hasn't grown up in a madrassa where the children are being hit to understand what it's like.

If you grew up in a madrassa where you got hit because the ustaji noticed your nails were too long or you forgot tajweed and you felt the pain and fear, I think it'd be hard for you to say "it's ok to hit children".

So maybe you should experience being hit for mis pronouncing letters or tajweed and then come back and comment. You may find that your opnion changes.

I hated my ustaji with a passion cos he used to hit me for incorrect tajweed, I still do hate him, whenever I see him I give him dirty looks and desire to get a stick and hit him back like he hit me when I was a child.

My point is if you haven't experienced a madrassa where the ustaji is hitting kids I don't think your in a position to comment cos you don't know the feelings and emotions that are attached to that situation because you haven't been in it.

[cat eyes]

no i was not hinting that your son is a liar but are you hinting i am ignorant sister and cold hearted??

i was simply saying that i would not take a child's word for it i might not have written that post in the way that i wanted sorry but i am not calling your kid a liar but kids will be kids because of the fact that kids mingle with all sorts of kids also who claim to have been slapped but have not.

kids actually start to believe they have seen things when they haven't or maybe he thought he had seen something you just don't know sister id have to hear this from another parent who's child is getting seriously beaten by a teacher. id have to investigate it more. if kids are coming out of the place with bruises everyday on your face and neck then id take action and a hard slap also leaves a mark ive been slapped before, it actually leaves bruising did you know that? imagine the force on a child.

and in response to your other post how can you think hitting a person with a magazine is bloody child abuse?? my science teacher use to do that to the guys in my class. they did not go running to the authorities to complain because they would be laughed out of the place

[cat eyes]

I think it's really hard for anyone who hasn't grown up in a madrassa where the children are being hit to understand what it's like.

If you grew up in a madrassa where you got hit because the ustaji noticed your nails were too long or you forgot tajweed and you felt the pain and fear, I think it'd be hard for you to say "it's ok to hit children".

So maybe you should experience being hit for mis pronouncing letters or tajweed and then come back and comment. You may find that your opnion changes.

I hated my ustaji with a passion cos he used to hit me for incorrect tajweed, I still do hate him, whenever I see him I give him dirty looks and desire to get a stick and hit him back like he hit me when I was a child.

My point is if you haven't experienced a madrassa where the ustaji is hitting kids I don't think your in a position to comment cos you don't know the feelings and emotions that are attached to that situation because you haven't been in it.

who is that post being hinted at?? i should be hit and then come back and comment should i

[Salahudeen]

^ I was talking in general. not hinting at a specific person

[Maryan0]

Everything in general should be done in moderation very rarely are extremes good.
salam

[Ummshareef]

:sl:

In my sons' madrassa, genuine mistakes in recitation and tajweed are corrected by verbal encouragement and as long as the children try their best they will not be physically punished :phew. Only if a child is disruptive and prevents the other children from learning, or if they insult Islam in any way, or they break the madrassa rules, are they liable to be swiftly punished as a reminder to all, :cry: though they are never hit around the head.

I would say that it is a good madrassa, in that it is run in accordance with shariah principles, teaches the boys well and quickly and has the right amount of discipline to keep the children focused on their learning. alHumdulillah.

As a final thought, I think we parents should be very grateful to all the ustaads and volunteers who give up their time to help out in the madrassas. May Allah swt bless them all.

[mammyluty]

i have a query about these!was the prophet,s ribs not sqeezed when he was told IQRA n he said he couldnt read.after the ribs was sqeezed he then started reading!i think the teachers are trying to do what was done to the prophet in order for them to read the Quran!

[mammyluty]

for me il say it depends on how they beat.there is alot of punishments one can do instead of beating.a student can be told to stand for 30 minutes for girls n for boys they can cross there hands while holding there ears.but beating so hard or using harsh words makes the student scared of the teacher n will results in low confidence n low self esteem!
n another one is to reward those who read well so as to make the others competetive to others!

bt either way from my experience only people in this country that complain about there children bieng beaten bt in my country no one would complain infact they will request the teachers to beat more if they dont get it right n guesse what they end up geting it right n only the hot headed ones that remain stubborn!i was one of those who were beaten when i get late make noise or after three turns of bieng taught n not geting it right...n hey am proud dat i got punished to get my mind straight!

but it all depends wth the parents whichever they prefer.i prefer to balance on how to correct my children n willing to admitt when am wrong!no one is perfect

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

..after the ribs was sqeezed he then started reading!i think the teachers are trying to do what was done to the prophet in order for them to read the Quran!

haha but Prophet pbuh himself never followed this technique to teach Quran to anyone.

A hadith says u can beat lightly if children don't pray when they are 7 . I don't think , it's allowed for any teacher to beat student if s/he can't remember the lesson .

[mammyluty]

:sl:




haha but Prophet pbuh himself never followed this technique to teach Quran to anyone.

A hadith says u can beat lightly if children don't pray when they are 7 . I don't think , it's allowed for any teacher to beat student if s/he can't remember the lesson .

oh i dint even think of it!wow i think am benefiting from this forum through debating.anywy so what technique did he use?

i need to listen to the prophets seera again cos av totaly forgotten it.

but i think caliph umar used to have a stick to correct his students or....?if u know just share ur knowledge to me no need to mock,i mean(ha haha)!

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

no need to mock,i mean(ha haha)!

ooopsss :( I had no intention to hurt ur feelings ; so sorry sis :embarrass :hiding:

[mammyluty]

:sl:



ooopsss :( I had no intention to hurt ur feelings ; so sorry sis :embarrass :hiding:

its ok sis am jst bieng silly!:hmm:

[syilla]

:salamext:

We have lots of hafidz school here... even we called it 'sekolah pondok' i think it is like the madrasas..

But never heard of beating of the children. Probably only light caning on the palm or on the lower part of the body... hmm...

Maybe is the culture i guess.

[CosmicPathos]

No one has the right to beat any child except his/her parents. Madrassas teachers must realize this and stop this archaic practice which they have brought from the Sub-continent.

[barney]

Dunno if this was already mentioned? Capital punishment by teachers is a criminal offence in the UK.
Any teacher hitting any child with a stick for any reason has committed actual bodily harm with intent. They face a jail sentance.

It is the duty of any British citizen to uphold our laws and also to report criminal activity they witness. Failure to do so is also a criminal act and such persons would be charged with complicity.

I severely hope for the childrens sake that this institution has been reported directly before the original post was made.

[Musliman]

I'm against any kind of violence of school, it's so last century, and nowadays people should be aware that we can raise and teach children without this ;)

[Rabi'ya]

I am so against the treatment that still goes on in mosques that I have decided to teach my daughter myself. inshAllah. she is three now and has learnt so much from my husband and I, through love not beatings. inshAllah she will go to a teacher when she's a little older but it wont be for hours every day. Just a little each week to make sure what Im teaching her is correct inshAllah.

I have recently heard more stories from the masjid, and it has really put me off.

[S<Chowdhury]

I am so against the treatment that still goes on in mosques that I have decided to teach my daughter myself. inshAllah. she is three now and has learnt so much from my husband and I, through love not beatings. inshAllah she will go to a teacher when she's a little older but it wont be for hours every day. Just a little each week to make sure what Im teaching her is correct inshAllah.

I have recently heard more stories from the masjid, and it has really put me off.

Hmmm when i was learning i never saw any girls get hit......usually just the boys because as usual we'd misbehave though a little slap here and there using either a cooper pipe or a coat hanger on the palm of your hand is really nothing it stings for a bit but you get over it, ain't gonna do you much harm, your parents could do a lot worse........that was just my experience but these days most teacher have left those ways behind now.

I personally think a little hit here and there is okey though there is a limit to it....a teacher literally cannot full blast cane you till you get bruises in those instances its definitely not okey.

[barney]

Hmmm when i was learning i never saw any girls get hit......usually just the boys because as usual we'd misbehave though a little slap here and there using either a cooper pipe or a coat hanger on the palm of your hand is really nothing it stings for a bit but you get over it, ain't gonna do you much harm, your parents could do a lot worse........that was just my experience but these days most teacher have left those ways behind now.

I personally think a little hit here and there is okey though there is a limit to it....a teacher literally cannot full blast cane you till you get bruises in those instances its definitely not okey.

The basic bit that people are missing is that hitting kids is a crime today in the UK.The assaulters face JAIL.
It dosnt matter what faith the school is. None are exempt.

[S<Chowdhury]

The basic bit that people are missing is that hitting kids is a crime today in the UK.The assaulters face JAIL.
It dosnt matter what faith the school is. None are exempt.

if your parents are aware that your teacher does hit you.....and i said no bruises just a little smack on the palm of your hand there is really no harm done. Anyway the law in the UK seems to wrap every kid in bubble wrap/red tape ( I study law only A-level though).... a gd slap once in a while would do them good.
Also hitting children is not illegal if you use minimal force leaving no bruises or scars. But any punishment which causes visible bruising, grazes, scratches, minor swellings or cuts can face action

[Mohamed_Sadiq]

Salaam,

Hitting children in the maddrasha (mosque lesson) is a fantastic way to bring up a child as they will be able to understand what they are doing is wrong. For instance if a child constanlty interupts or misbehaves in lesson the best way to discipline them is hitting them however it better to hit younger children from the ages of 6-14. Also if the child does not recite what they are told they also must be hit but with sincerity this will make them afraid of being hit next time and will learn their lesson for the next lesson this a sufficient way of teaching a child to memorise the holy quran.

So hitting a child in madrassah is acceptable as it will benefit them! and we are not talking about physical abuse such as knocking the teeth out!! Just a simple hit with a stick on the hand or foot!!

[Mohamed_Sadiq]

I am so against the treatment that still goes on in mosques that I have decided to teach my daughter myself. inshAllah. she is three now and has learnt so much from my husband and I, through love not beatings. inshAllah she will go to a teacher when she's a little older but it wont be for hours every day. Just a little each week to make sure what Im teaching her is correct inshAllah.

I have recently heard more stories from the masjid, and it has really put me off.

Sister don't be put off the mosque it is the best place for your child to experience their deen and will also help them to socialise with other children trust me, don't listen to those people that tell you those stupid remarks of education in the mosque. Also mansha allah for teaching your daughter as many parent don't do that and also consider taking your child to madrassah at a young age and also have good contact with the teacher.

[barney]

if your parents are aware that your teacher does hit you.....and i said no bruises just a little smack on the palm of your hand there is really no harm done. Anyway the law in the UK seems to wrap every kid in bubble wrap/red tape ( I study law only A-level though).... a gd slap once in a while would do them good.
Also hitting children is not illegal if you use minimal force leaving no bruises or scars. But any punishment which causes visible bruising, grazes, scratches, minor swellings or cuts can face action

It dosnt matter what your own personal opinions are on it. it remains the law.
Hitting using minimum force is only a defence in court if it is in self defence.
Getting a repertition wrong isnt self defence.
These schools are acting criminally. Over in KSA or Iran or whereever, fine. Different more barbaric laws, so thats morally a problem but not legally.

Here you cant smack kids in schools- Period. Do it and you face jail.

[barney]

Salaam,

Hitting children in the maddrasha (mosque lesson) is a fantastic way to bring up a child as they will be able to understand what they are doing is wrong. For instance if a child constanlty interupts or misbehaves in lesson the best way to discipline them is hitting them however it better to hit younger children from the ages of 6-14. Also if the child does not recite what they are told they also must be hit but with sincerity this will make them afraid of being hit next time and will learn their lesson for the next lesson this a sufficient way of teaching a child to memorise the holy quran.

So hitting a child in madrassah is acceptable as it will benefit them! and we are not talking about physical abuse such as knocking the teeth out!! Just a simple hit with a stick on the hand or foot!!

Wish there was some sort of language to express the stupidity and barbarism in such sentiments+o(+o(+o(+o(

[Asiyah3]

the best way to discipline them is hitting them however it better to hit younger children from the ages of 6-14.

I disagree with the age you put there. Bro a 6 year-old isn't mature enough to understand. It's just a kid. A slight hit to a ten year old I'd comprehend though even then he should be adviced repeatedly before resorting to that method. Additionally It shouldn't be a way to punish rather only as a way to convey a message that their behavior is wrong.

[Mohamed_Sadiq]

I disagree with the age you put there. Bro a 6 year-old isn't mature enough to understand. It's just a kid. A slight hit to a ten year old I'd comprehend though even then he should be adviced repeatedly before resorting to that method. Additionally It shouldn't be a way to punish rather only as a way to convey a message that their behavior is wrong.

Brother the age i said is just my opinion i might be wrong, but i do believe hitting a child is good as it will disicipine them. Also it depends on how you hit a young child, I am not saying abuse a child but i am saying hit them only to disicipline them for example at mosque a kid might misbehave constantly and the teacher can hit the child with a stick on the hand or foot.

[Mohamed_Sadiq]

Wish there was some sort of language to express the stupidity and barbarism in such sentiments+o(+o(+o(+o(

I don't think hitting a student is barbaric but your entitled to your opinion!

[barney]

I don't think hitting a student is barbaric but your entitled to your opinion!

As you are yours!

[Woodrow]

Salaam,

Hitting children in the maddrasha (mosque lesson) is a fantastic way to bring up a child as they will be able to understand what they are doing is wrong. For instance if a child constanlty interupts or misbehaves in lesson the best way to discipline them is hitting them however it better to hit younger children from the ages of 6-14. Also if the child does not recite what they are told they also must be hit but with sincerity this will make them afraid of being hit next time and will learn their lesson for the next lesson this a sufficient way of teaching a child to memorise the holy quran.

So hitting a child in madrassah is acceptable as it will benefit them! and we are not talking about physical abuse such as knocking the teeth out!! Just a simple hit with a stick on the hand or foot!!

:sl:

Very much will depend on the teacher and the student.When I was a child, I was Roman Catholic. On Wednesday Catechism class we were given an assignment of prayers to memorize before Sunday. On Sunday catechism class we had to stand up in front of the class and hold our hands out, while we recited Wednesdays assignment, for each mistake the nun swatted our hands with a ruler. If we did not know it at all we got a good paddling on our bottoms. Then had to meet with the Nun daily reciting in front of the Nun and getting swatted for every mistake. I never did learn the prayers and learned how to use cheat sheets. I got to be real good at that and learned how to hide my notes so I could read them without the Nun seeing I was reading.

[S<Chowdhury]

It dosnt matter what your own personal opinions are on it. it remains the law.
Hitting using minimum force is only a defence in court if it is in self defence.
Getting a repertition wrong isnt self defence.
These schools are acting criminally. Over in KSA or Iran or whereever, fine. Different more barbaric laws, so thats morally a problem but not legally.

Here you cant smack kids in schools- Period. Do it and you face jail.

Firstly i was referring to parents hitting Kids when i said you can hit a child using minimal force, sorry should of cleared that up......anyway haha barbaric laws....thats only your opinion. What is so barbaric which i think is a very strong word to use something you'd find on a BNP leaflet most likely.... about hitting a child with minimal force in schools? Explain to me the barbarism in that?

[Musliman]

Firstly i was referring to parents hitting Kids when i said you can hit a child using minimal force, sorry should of cleared that up......anyway haha barbaric laws....thats only your opinion. What is so barbaric which i think is a very strong word to use something you'd find on a BNP leaflet most likely.... about hitting a child with minimal force in schools? Explain to me the barbarism in that?

In my opinion, parents are the only ones who are responsible of children so they are the only ones who can use minimal force, but after all, they should not use it, both school and parents have 1001 ways to educate especially nowadays in the 21st century :)

[S<Chowdhury]

In my opinion, parents are the only ones who are responsible of children so they are the only ones who can use minimal force, but after all, they should not use it, both school and parents have 1001 ways to educate especially nowadays in the 21st century :)

1001 ways to educate.....there only seems to be only a few selections in schools these days....its either your teacher will kick you out of the lessons which usually has no affect rather your happy to be out of the lesson.....detention for 50mins in which you sit in a room bored out of your mind. For more serious things talks with parents....report cards etc etc and lastly as usual just get kicked of school end up with the wrong crowd and usually followed by a life of crime or drugs etc....imprisonment or sitting on benefits. Sometimes you need to instil some sort of fear in children........though Im not saying beating the daylight out of child sometimes a bit of resonable force is needed.... there needs to be a balance.

[Sampharo]

It dosnt matter what your own personal opinions are on it. it remains the law........- Period. Do it and you face jail.

Interesting, I'll quote you next time athiests like you scream in objection when we say the same thing about Islamic Shariah and they all get all high and mighty about "laws needs to be changed... laws are what we say they are" and all that blaaa that they apparently only say when it's not to their liking.

[Muezzin]

:sl:

Very much will depend on the teacher and the student.When I was a child, I was Roman Catholic. On Wednesday Catechism class we were given an assignment of prayers to memorize before Sunday. On Sunday catechism class we had to stand up in front of the class and hold our hands out, while we recited Wednesdays assignment, for each mistake the nun swatted our hands with a ruler. If we did not know it at all we got a good paddling on our bottoms. Then had to meet with the Nun daily reciting in front of the Nun and getting swatted for every mistake. I never did learn the prayers and learned how to use cheat sheets. I got to be real good at that and learned how to hide my notes so I could read them without the Nun seeing I was reading.

Well, nobody can deny that corporal punishment encourages lateral thinking.

[theblackcloud]

Every madrassah I have been in they have welcomed me very warmly. I'm sure beatings do occur in the madrassahs, but they are probably isolated incidents.