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Argamemnon
10-19-2009, 11:02 PM
This topic has probably been discussed before, but I don't visit this forum regularly, so please forgive me. I'm very worried about my future as a Muslim here in western Europe. There is so much anti-Islam propaganda, especially young people seem to hate Islam and Muslims to the extent that there can be no coexistence in the future......

That's my opinion based on what I see, hear and read. I believe a future Holocaust of Muslims is not as far-fetched as some people believe. All western children are brainwashed with anti-Islam propaganda by Islamophobes and atheo-fascists (Godless atheist bigots), so how could one be optimistic about the future?

I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to migrate to a Muslim country. I can't imagine living in the West in the year 2030-2040.
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Amadeus85
10-20-2009, 10:44 AM
Radical atheist can be definitely compared to fascism. The term islamo-fascism is baseless, as we can't compare religious doctrines more than 1 000 year old to modern, european doctrine which was born in beginning of XX century, which is fascism. The same way we could accuse many catholics of catholico- fascism and orthodox jews of judaism- fascism. To the term fascism better match people like Richard Dawkins, who think in totalitarian way,who want to control every aspect of our lifes, with despise to other's ways of life, exaclty like Benito Mussolini did.
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czgibson
10-20-2009, 11:00 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
To the term fascism better match people like Richard Dawkins, who think in totalitarian way,who want to control every aspect of our lifes, with despise to other's ways of life, exaclty like Benito Mussolini did.
That's pretty amazing. Do you really believe that Richard Dawkins wants to control every aspect of your life?

Peace
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Argamemnon
10-20-2009, 11:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


That's pretty amazing. Do you really believe that Richard Dawkins wants to control every aspect of your life?

Peace
Peace,

On his site, some atheists were saying that religion should be banned, and religious people "punished". I take them very seriously. Atheo-fascism certainly exists.
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Argamemnon
10-20-2009, 11:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
The same way we could accuse many catholics of catholico- fascism and orthodox jews of judaism- fascism.
It's called Christofascism and Judeofascism.
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Eliphaz
10-20-2009, 11:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
That's my opinion based on what I see, hear and read. I believe a future Holocaust of Muslims is not as far-fetched as some people believe. All western children are brainwashed with anti-Islam propaganda by Islamophobes and atheo-fascists (Godless atheist bigots), so how could one be optimistic about the future?

I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to migrate to a Muslim country. I can't imagine living in the West in the year 2030-2040.
I sometimes feel this way too.

It seems that by chasing after this "free and fair" society, people want a society where there is no spiritual dimension, only material, social and scientific "progress" towards some unseen and ever-elusive goal of "happiness". Everything else that gets in the way of this is seen as regressive and undesirable.

As Eaton writes in his book, Remembering God:

"The Catholic philosopher Gustave Thibon compares modern civilization to train which is hurtling towards the buffers. With every mile it covers the air conditioning is improved and the seats get softer. It offers every convinience except for one. There is no alarm bell."

If the Muslims are assimilated or forced to migrate, who will ring the alarm bell? The laughable "ethics committees" of science? What is ethics without any faith in anything? I worry not just for Muslims in this society, but for this society in general. They don't know where they are going and are slowly being convinced that Muslims, or Islam, is to blame for all the world's problems.
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czgibson
10-20-2009, 11:38 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Peace,

On his site, some atheists were saying that religion should be banned, and religious people "punished". I take them very seriously. Atheo-fascism certainly exists.
The trouble is that "fascism" is little more than a catch-all pejorative term used to label any system of thought you don't like. If, instead, you use a dictionary definition of fascism and try to apply it to atheism, it's a bit of a stretch:

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. [dictionary.com]
Does that really describe atheism, or even the sorts of atheists you are talking about?

On the point you mention, I can almost understand what the "atheo-fascists" are getting at, but they are far too dogmatic about it. I think we would all be much better off without religion, and I fervently hope that we grow out of it as a species, but I don't have the right to stop anyone from believing in religion if that's what they want. Nobody should be punished just because they believe something that happens to be untrue. It's only if people's beliefs lead them to cause harm to others that punishment is appropriate.

In any case, none of this really addresses my question to Amadeus85, about his mystifying claim that Richard Dawkins wants to control every aspect of our lives. It's definitely the first time I've ever heard that one!

Peace
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Argamemnon
10-20-2009, 11:50 AM
^^ Well, it's true that fascism is a governmental system. We could use the term fanaticism or extremism instead. I don't use the term fascism to label a system of thought I don't like. I have nothing against atheists as long as they leave me alone. I oppose fanaticism and bigotry and hatred.
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Eliphaz
10-20-2009, 11:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


The trouble is that "fascism" is little more than a catch-all pejorative term used to label any system of thought you don't like. If, instead, you use a dictionary definition of fascism and try to apply it to atheism, it's a bit of a stretch:



Does that really describe atheism, or even the sorts of atheists you are talking about?

On the point you mention, I can almost understand what the "atheo-fascists" are getting at, but they are far too dogmatic about it. I think we would all be much better off without religion, and I fervently hope that we grow out of it as a species, but I don't have the right to stop anyone from believing in religion if that's what they want. Nobody should be punished just because they believe something that happens to be untrue. It's only if people's beliefs lead them to cause harm to others that punishment is appropriate.

In any case, none of this really addresses my question to Amadeus85, about his mystifying claim that Richard Dawkins wants to control every aspect of our lives. It's definitely the first time I've ever heard that one!

Peace
If, when you say "we would all be much better without religion", do you seriously believe that, for one second, without religion there would be no wars? Wars have been, and always will be, by-and-large about one thing: natural resources. Considering that modern civilisation is the major consumer of these resources, I think that you can look forward to many more "wars in the name of consumerism" in the future.

Oh, but without religion (by which you mean Islam) you are assuming there won't be the random terrorist attack here or there in civilised Europe (by people who have no religious knowledge), so I guess by "people" being better off you must mean Europeans.
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czgibson
10-20-2009, 12:00 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_21:30
If, when you say "we would all be much better without religion", do you seriously believe that, for one second, without religion there would be no wars?
Nope.

Oh, but without religion (by which you mean Islam)
By which I actually mean "religion"...

you are assuming there won't be the random terrorist attack here or there in civilised Europe
Nope.

so I guess by "people" being better off you must mean Europeans.
I actually just mean "people".

Peace
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aamirsaab
10-20-2009, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
....I think we would all be much better off without religion, and I fervently hope that we grow out of it as a species,....
I vehemently disagree with this notion. I have seen what life is like without religion and it most certainly is nothing to be proud of.

The hedonistic lifestyle that is the social norm of today is embarrasing to even hear about: students go to University to go to clubs to quite literaly waste themselves on alcohol (which is THE mother of ALL evils in any society), wake up at God-forsaken hours to finish and sometimes start an assignment that is due in the next 4 hours.

Doesn't sound too bad? Ok let's try another: A visit to the pub is far more frequent than a visit to one's OWN parents and family. It's regarded as the one-stop-show for all your needs: feeling down, have a drink; passed an exam, have a drink; absolutely pissed out of your mind, have a drink!

Oh and the fun doesn't end there, no no no. As if the above are not bad enough, gambling is another fun pass time of today: yeah another waste of time and money. Your own hard-earned money.

Of course, don't spend a penny on those who go hungry every night (and die as a result), don't spend any money on orphans or on these victims of XYZ event (unless of course MTV said to do so!) - just keep spending it on yourself. Yeah, because hey it's your hard earned money and you don't have to give a **** about anyone else....and anyone who tells you what to do is a complete retard and should mind their own.

That's a life without religion. What a wondeful life to lead. Compare and contrast that with a life that encourages the exact opposite, and I think you'll agree with me that a life without religion is pretty crap.

As a final comment: It's actually ironic that you want religion to die out but there will always be at least one gauranteed man-made religion; that of money. It makes the world go round right now and it's the only reason we get out of bed in the morning. It's a very sick thing to hear about tbh and only reinforces my belief in religion as a whole.
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czgibson
10-20-2009, 02:17 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
That's a life without religion.
No, that's just a caricature you've created. Alcohol and gambling have existed alongside religion in many societies for centuries.

Peace
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aamirsaab
10-20-2009, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


No, that's just a caricature you've created.
Actually, it was based on several individuals who I met at university. Common factor was no religion (or secular, I forgot what the PC term is nowadays), though there were also hindus, sikhs and even some muslims (embarassingly enough!) who joined the frey. Of course, I have no way of telling how devout each and any of them were but I go on what I know.

Alcohol and gambling have existed alongside religion in many societies for centuries.

Peace
All but one: Islam.

However, I should say I don't believe Hawkins wants to control every aspect of our lives, no (so in such respect, I agree with you). But, he and his ilk really have no legs to stand on when they disrespect religion as a whole citing it as whatever nonsense they seem fit for that day, be it means to terror, subjucation, disrespect of XYZ and so on; especially in light of my previous post which highlights 3 of the biggest social problems of this world and funnily enough 3 of the major harams in Islam.
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czgibson
10-20-2009, 06:11 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Actually, it was based on several individuals who I met at university.
Well, that's fair enough as a description of behaviour among some students. However, it's a little different from a description of "life without religion". Especially as some of the students you describe actually had a religion.

However, I should say I don't believe Hawkins wants to control every aspect of our lives, no (so in such respect, I agree with you). But, he and his ilk really have no legs to stand on when they disrespect religion as a whole citing it as whatever nonsense they seem fit for that day, be it means to terror, subjucation, disrespect of XYZ and so on;
Maybe you should familiarise yourself with some of his arguments before you dismiss them. His name is Dawkins, by the way.

Peace
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Eliphaz
10-20-2009, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Nope.



By which I actually mean "religion"...



Nope.



I actually just mean "people".

Peace
Then czgibson, we all await for you to tell us how humanity would be better off without religion...
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czgibson
10-20-2009, 06:31 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_21:30
Then czgibson, we all await for you to tell us how humanity would be better off without religion...
And then I'll wait for the bunch of private messages arriving saying "Post deleted". I've been round that circle so many times.

Peace
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noorseeker
10-20-2009, 07:35 PM
a lot of the people in the western society havent sat down and actually thought about religion, Whether there is a after life

Can you imagine a a group of guys round a table in a pub, and one says ok lads, do you think theres an after life, People just dont do that,

Its hard enough us muslims remembering about Allah swt every day
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aamirsaab
10-20-2009, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Well, that's fair enough as a description of behaviour among some students. However, it's a little different from a description of "life without religion". Especially as some of the students you describe actually had a religion.
Indeed, but my point was removing religion WILL not remove those 3 problems (which are real problems the western world is actually facing right now, this instant). And to be honest, these are far more detrimental to any individual or society than anything else, be it ideology or otherwise. Far, far worse certainly than any religion (especially ones that outright condemn it!)

Maybe you should familiarise yourself with some of his arguments before you dismiss them. His name is Dawkins, by the way.

Peace
Oh I'm familiar with his arguments but they all essentially boil down to God probably doesn't exist, your religion is man-made and you're deluded for believing in such a concept. Which is quite a lot of adhoms, assumptions and acts of passive agression for a man who believes in logical debates.

P.s; Did I say Hawkins instead of Dawkins? Sorry, my bad.
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czgibson
10-20-2009, 08:47 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by nightstar
a lot of the people in the western society havent sat down and actually thought about religion, Whether there is a after life
True. A lot of people don't find they have any need to think about religion at all.
Can you imagine a a group of guys round a table in a pub, and one says ok lads, do you think theres an after life, People just dont do that,
They do where I live, although the person doing the asking is often me! :p

Its hard enough us muslims remembering about Allah swt every day
Think about why that might be.

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Indeed, but my point was removing religion WILL not remove those 3 problems (which are real problems the western world is actually facing right now, this instant). And to be honest, these are far more detrimental to any individual or society than anything else, be it ideology or otherwise. Far, far worse certainly than any religion (especially ones that outright condemn it!)
I didn't claim removing religion would remove those problems.
Oh I'm familiar with his arguments but they all essentially boil down to God probably doesn't exist, your religion is man-made and you're deluded for believing in such a concept. Which is quite a lot of adhoms, assumptions and acts of passive agression for a man who believes in logical debates.
Those are conclusions, not arguments. Have another look at why and how he comes to those conclusions, and then you'll be able to start attacking his arguments.

If you want to, that is.

Peace
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GuestFellow
10-20-2009, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Does that really describe atheism, or even the sorts of atheists you are talking about?
Communism.

I think we would all be much better off without religion,
Not really. High suicide rate, teenage pregnancy, drug abuse, depression and the list goes on forever! Not that I am saying this does not occur in religious communities but in the UK these are major problems and I would say the vast majority of people in the UK are secular.

format_quote Originally Posted by nightstar
a lot of the people in the western society havent sat down and actually thought about religion, Whether there is a after life
Yeah they're too busy thinking about alcohol. ;)
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Joe98
10-20-2009, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_21:30
………we all await for you to tell us how humanity would be better off without religion...

No religion = no crusades

No religion = no Jews and no Israel and no conflict over Israel

No religion = no Pakistan and no wars between India and Pakistan

No religion = no Taliban terrorist training centres and no 9/11

-
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Joe98
10-20-2009, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to migrate to a Muslim country.

You say that as though it is a bad thing. I would have thought you would be happy to love among muslims.


format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
there will always be at least one gauranteed man-made religion; that of money.

Perhaps Argamemnon is staying for the money? Maybe you should move to a muslim country and teach them how to make money – for a fee of course ;D


-
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Joe98
10-20-2009, 11:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
and I think you'll agree with me that a life without religion is pretty crap.
I disagree.

My life without religion involves a lot of hiking, cycling and skiing.

I have been hiking, cycling and skiing all over the place.

I would like to go hiking, cycling and skiing over every road, up every valley and over every mountain on earth! Our earth is beautiful!

But, I will run out of time and money. Hence I work hard, make money and do these things.

Of course we can no longer go hiking in the beautiful Swat Valley of Pakistan, and stay in local accomodation and pay the locals for doing do, because the Taliban say hiking to see our beautiful world is against Islam.

No religion = good hiking in the Swat Valley ;D
-
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Karl
10-21-2009, 12:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I think we would all be much better off without religion, and I fervently hope that we grow out of it as a species.
as 'a' species? Interesting how you apply it in the singular manner. You're a monogenist right? I'm a polygenist and I say each human species to their own, and I will also say that religion is the way for MY species. :D
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جوري
10-21-2009, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
and I think you'll agree with me that a life without religion is pretty crap.
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
I disagree.
Then why spend so much of your time on an Islamic forum? From where we are standing, you are either a hypocrite or have positively no understanding of why what you write doesn't reconcile with what you allege you do.

I'll choose the second option, given the first requires some thought on your part, and I really believe there is a large vacancy between your ears.
I don't say this to insult you, it is just how you represent yourself to forumers here, I rather think some of your Q's or thoughts would be better off if you deliberated over before you hurled them out.. Yes, I know we are cave dwelling Muslims who take over airplanes with plastic knives but I think if you took the trail of less herbing you might find that there are still some standards involved when writing even on an Islamic board, and that what you spew will have to be publicly decimated for its nonsensical(ity)?

to the OP.. what is, is what has always been, just like murder and gluttony and acedia and jealousy have always existed.. Muslims are just in at the moment, Islam is also enjoying the highest conversion rate since its inception. You can live your life in fear or you can be a part of positive change that is taking place in the world... I'd avoid stupid people.. if you walk into an area of poor demographics and folks who seem to want to have at you Muslim or not, then I'd simply just avoid it... That is why we work, so we can support fellow Muslims and afford ourselves a dignified life style away from the riff-raffs..

:sl:
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Karl
10-21-2009, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
This topic has probably been discussed before, but I don't visit this forum regularly, so please forgive me. I'm very worried about my future as a Muslim here in western Europe. There is so much anti-Islam propaganda, especially young people seem to hate Islam and Muslims to the extent that there can be no coexistence in the future......

That's my opinion based on what I see, hear and read. I believe a future Holocaust of Muslims is not as far-fetched as some people believe. All western children are brainwashed with anti-Islam propaganda by Islamophobes and atheo-fascists (Godless atheist bigots), so how could one be optimistic about the future?

I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to migrate to a Muslim country. I can't imagine living in the West in the year 2030-2040.
I think you are dead right about this. The West is essentially full of godless barbarians. What makes them so dangerous is that most of them are pop culture consuming complete MORONS and are easily manipulated like a big dog, and when they get converted to a hateful path they act like a dog which has caught rabies. Many westerners are currently being manipulated by wealthy and very clever jews. Jews are frothing at the mouth with Islamophobia and through the media they are successfully manipulating the minds of the barbaric westerners (10 tribes of the beast). Jews also know too well their own previous bad fates with the westerners, and so they are shifting the previous European focus on jews and cleverly directing the paranoia and hate towards Muslims instead. While the jews continue to own the powerful media things will NOTchange. Muslims are best to try and get out of Europe as soon as they can, but of course for some, this is not always easy as many Muslims are poor. Another important thing to bare in mind is that Europe is populated by MANY zionist jews, many of whom pretend to be "Christians" and even disguise themselves as being of Germanic race. It doesn't wash with me though, I can pick them out very easily.
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GuestFellow
10-21-2009, 06:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
No religion = no crusades
The main reason why the crusades took was due to military and commercial expansion. Religion here was used as a form of motivation in order to gain mass support. Otherwise without religion, the leaders at the time would have simply found another form of propaganda to gain mass support for the war.

No religion = no Jews and no Israel and no conflict over Israel
Wrong. Zionism it the main drive behind the state of Israel. You don't have to be religious or even follow a religion in order to become a Zionist.

No religion = no Pakistan and no wars between India and Pakistan
Ah please explain to me. Are you referring to the 1971 conflict or 1965 conflict?

No religion = no Taliban terrorist training centres and no 9/11-
No America = no Taliban = No 9/11 = No war on terror = No war Afghanistan = No war Iraq

You forgot to name many other wars too.

World War 1
World War 2
Vietnam War
Somali Civil War
Mexican drug conflict
Assam Conflict
Algerian War
Most recent Iraq and Afghanistan war

At the moment this is what I can think of at the top of my head. There is a lot more. If you actually sit down, spend your time productively and read about these conflicts, you would realise all of these conflicts and wars have something in common. Sometimes it about expansion for economic purposes, military purpose, for resources or simply the expansion of land. In some conflicts yes religion has a role but only as a form of motivation. Nationalism is another form of motivation. The government or the leaders at that time shall use anything to gain mass support in order to go to war. So really it doesn't make a difference with or without religion. You going to get war with power hungry fools in high status power.
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titus
10-21-2009, 06:28 AM
Many westerners are currently being manipulated by wealthy and very clever jews. Jews are frothing at the mouth with Islamophobia and through the media they are successfully manipulating the minds of the barbaric westerners (10 tribes of the beast).
At least without religion you wouldn't have people that hate each other because of their religion and trying to make other people hate Jews. It has stopped amazing me that no matter where you find Muslims on a forum you always find at least one that is trying to convince everyone to hate Jews. Are you trying to tell us that Muslims are not being manipulated? If so can you actually keep a straight face when typing when your posts?

On the other hand, without religion does anyone really think their would be less wars and killing? History has shown that wars occur no matter whether religion is involved or not. Religion is often just the excuse given, although the real reason were often much different. Did the Greeks kill each other over religion? Did the Persians conquer in the name of religion? The Romans? Was WWI about religion? WWII? Korea? The Falklands? Vietnam?

Wrong. Zionism it the main drive behind the state of Israel. You don't have to be religious or even follow a religion in order to become a Zionist.
That's a stretch. If there were no Judaism then there would be no Zionism. If Palestinians were not predominately Muslim then most of the people in the Middle East (and on this forum) would have stopped caring about them decades ago. In this case religion is to blame for both sides continuing this conflict.
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aamirsaab
10-21-2009, 09:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I didn't claim removing religion would remove those problems.
You said we'd be better off without religion; I am truly not convinced in light of my experiences.

But I believe we must agree to disagree on this matter, for now anyway.

Those are conclusions, not arguments. Have another look at why and how he comes to those conclusions, and then you'll be able to start attacking his arguments.

If you want to, that is.

Peace
Oh I'll have a bash on him soon enough, on a more approriate thread.

format_quote Originally Posted by Joe
I disagree.

My life without religion involves a lot of hiking, cycling and skiing.

I have been hiking, cycling and skiing all over the place.

I would like to go hiking, cycling and skiing over every road, up every valley and over every mountain on earth! Our earth is beautiful!

But, I will run out of time and money. Hence I work hard, make money and do these things.

Of course we can no longer go hiking in the beautiful Swat Valley of Pakistan, and stay in local accomodation and pay the locals for doing do, because the Taliban say hiking to see our beautiful world is against Islam.

No religion = good hiking in the Swat Valley
...Right. Please tell me exactly where it is in the Quran or Sunnah that hiking, cycling and skiing is haram (forbidden by Allah)? I'll wait.

Also, I think you missed my point: religion as a concept and as a set of ideas is there to prevent many of the social ills that are present today (in a society that is free from religion or secular as people like to call it) - whether you believe in them or not, just looking at the teachings is enough for anyone to say: ''Hey, these guys say alcohol, gambling and adultery is bad - hey aren't those three really rife nowadays and aren't those three the main causes of disparity in our society? Wow, that's some real sh*t right there.''

We would most certainly NOT be better off without religion, especially Islam.
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GuestFellow
10-21-2009, 03:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
My life without religion involves a lot of hiking, cycling and skiing

I have been hiking, cycling and skiing all over the place.

I would like to go hiking, cycling and skiing over every road, up every valley and over every mountain on earth! Our earth is beautiful!

But, I will run out of time and money. Hence I work hard, make money and do these things.

Of course we can no longer go hiking in the beautiful Swat Valley of Pakistan, and stay in local accomodation and pay the locals for doing do, because the Taliban say hiking to see our beautiful world is against Islam.

No religion = good hiking in the Swat Valley ;D
-
Do you even know what you are talking about? If you do not have anything useful to add to the thread, then do us a favour and leave. Go climb a banana tree with the rest of the gorillas.

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
...Right. Please tell me exactly where it is in the Quran or Sunnah that hiking, cycling and skiing is haram (forbidden by Allah)? I'll wait.
He is just coming up with retarded equations. No atheists = no retarded equations. ;)
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Lost&Found
10-21-2009, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
No atheists = no retarded equations. ;)
If you do not have anything useful to add to the thread, then do us a favor and leave. ;)
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GuestFellow
10-21-2009, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lost&Found
If you do not have anything useful to add to the thread, then do us a favor and leave. ;)
Sure. No more useful things to say for you atheists. ;)

*leaves*
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Argamemnon
10-21-2009, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
You say that as though it is a bad thing. I would have thought you would be happy to love among muslims.
You are avoiding the issue we're discussing, and trying to put the blame on victims? I was born and raised here, my mother tongue is Dutch. It's not that easy to just move to another country and start a new life (but not impossible either). Besides, I will live wherever I want, and don't need your permission.
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Argamemnon
10-21-2009, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
At least without religion you wouldn't have people that hate each other.
Is that why atheists hate all Muslims (and even Christians and Jews)? Because of their atheist beliefs?
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GuestFellow
10-21-2009, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Is that why atheists hate all Muslims (and even Christians and Jews)? Because of their atheist beliefs?
Some of them do that is for sure. They simply cannot tolerate other people's religious beliefs and want to see religion wiped off the planet. It never suited them so they wish for the same for others. Too bad this shall never come a reality and atheists can keep on dreaming. It has already been demonstrated what life is without religion looking at the vast majority of western countries. Not looking very good especially in Britain.
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Joe98
10-22-2009, 01:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
There is so much anti-Islam propaganda,...
Regarding Rupert Murdoch. Some people on this forum have said that he is a Jew and that News Limited constantly uses anti-Islam propaganda.

You are wrong.

Murdoch’s father, Keith, was a journalist. Keith’s father was a Presbyterian minister from Scotland and his father too was a Presbyterian minister from Scotland! No Jews there!

A year ago in Australia, 9 Muslims were charged with terrorism offences. 4 immediately pled guilty and the 5 co-conspirators mysteriously pled not guilty.

The court case lasted a year, the other 5 found guilty and the case reported in News Limited newspapers.

In the article, see link below, the author says the men had mental problems – it wasn’t Islam that caused then to turn to terror.

This is an example of News Limited, NOT using anti-Islam propaganda.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-28737,00.html


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Reply

Joe98
10-22-2009, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab

...Right. Please tell me exactly where it is in the Quran or Sunnah that hiking, cycling and skiing is haram (forbidden by Allah)? I'll wait.

You will have a long wait as I never said that.

I said “the Taliban said hiking is against Islam”. So you need to ask the Taliban.

I have some background. Hiking in the Swat valley was popular from the late 1960’s till the early 1980’s.

Eventually the locals said, that hiking was a waste of time. They pointed to their holy book and said time would be better spent praying to Allah. Hiking was forbidden because its against Islam!

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Reply

Joe98
10-22-2009, 01:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon;

Muslims to the extent that there can be no coexistence in the future......

Originally I thought we could all co-exist. That we cannot co-exists comes from you’re side – not from my side.

I have said this a few times in various threads and get ignored. We can co-exist when:

We live in houses next door to each other.

We know bout our differences and can laugh about them.

Our children play together.

From time to time, if I am out, you give my wife a hand with something and I give you’re wife a hand with something.

We go to a local café for a meal together. I have pork and you have something else.

We could go on and on. In the West Mulsims avoid doing all these things, separate themselves from society so we cannot talk to each other and then claim:


format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
There is so much anti-Islam propaganda,



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Reply

tetsujin
10-22-2009, 01:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
This topic has probably been discussed before, but I don't visit this forum regularly, so please forgive me. I'm very worried about my future as a Muslim here in western Europe. There is so much anti-Islam propaganda, especially young people seem to hate Islam and Muslims to the extent that there can be no coexistence in the future......
There is that sense of "the other" which you will find everywhere. There is also an issue with immigrants who wish to keep their own culture and values but in the process do not take the time to understand the history and culture of the country they've moved to. They don't wish to call their residence "home" and they don't wish to reside where in the country they call "home". You've got to wonder why you want to live in a place where you don't like the culture and values of the people. Will you look down on your neighbours every day? How will they feel? If you think that you will assimilate to such an extent, then how do you feel about your own values and traditions? Islam is a way of life, there are no compromises and frankly living in the west you will be making compromises with your "afterlife" each and every minute you are outside your home.

If there is a fear, one day here will be too many religious people who will take over the government through the democratic system. It’s ironic, because an Islamic government does not run on a democratic system. If people began demanding special rights or freedoms based on religious convictions, which have no non-religious benefits, then it is unfair to the population of that state. It also undermines the control and legitimacy of that government. This has nothing to do with not wanting Muslims/Christians/Hindus in the country. It is a matter of treating everyone on an equal level based on fundamental human rights. Those fundamental rights include freedom of conscience, but they do not include the freedom to impose a religious order on other. Atheism is not the same as secularism. Even without any atheists in a state, the religious citizens could decide to have a non-religious government.

That's my opinion based on what I see, hear and read. I believe a future Holocaust of Muslims is not as far-fetched as some people believe. All western children are brainwashed with anti-Islam propaganda by Islamophobes and atheo-fascists (Godless atheist bigots), so how could one be optimistic about the future?
Secularism has purged religion (to a good extent) from governments. Don't think that this is simply about Islam. As for the personal beliefs of others, I cannot comment. I hope you'll find that atheists are not fanatics since there's no central dogma and atheism is nothing more than a lack of faith in god. Everything else concerning political alignments, social or economic ideologies etc... are in no way related to or based on atheism. What you take for granted as a natural order does not apply for everyone, so please try to understand that in order to engage in that discussion you need to shift your paradigm.

I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to migrate to a Muslim country. I can't imagine living in the West in the year 2030-2040.
I'm sure no one is asking you to leave. You need to figure out what you value.


All the best,


Faysal
Reply

جوري
10-22-2009, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
There is that sense of "the other" which you will find everywhere. There is also an issue with immigrants who wish to keep their own culture and values but in the process do not take the time to understand the history and culture of the country they've moved to.
you should really direct all that drivel to the Amish communities, hutterites, Hasidic Jews, the folks of china town, little Italy etc etc etc.
or is it just Muslims that peeve you for their lack of acclimation or perhaps is that you are a typical brain washed hypocrite from the other end of the spectrum?

all the best
Reply

tetsujin
10-22-2009, 02:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
you should really direct all that drivel to the Amish communities, hutterites, Hasidic Jews, the folks of china town, little Italy etc etc etc.
They haven't posted a thread here.


All the best,


Faysal
Reply

جوري
10-22-2009, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
They haven't posted a thread here.


All the best,


Faysal
perhaps you should seek their communities out as you have sought this Islamic forum (you being an atheist) are surely deft with google & able to crusade against said communities for their isolation and failure to acclimate-- offer them your pearls with that same bravado?

all the best indeed!
Reply

tetsujin
10-22-2009, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
perhaps you should seek their communities out as you have sought this Islamic forum (you being an atheist) are surely deft with google & able to crusade against said communities for their isolation and failure to acclimate-- offer them your pearls with that same bravado?

all the best indeed!
Would it satisfy you to know that I have? Although, neither they nor I would not call it a crusade.

All the best,


Faysal
Reply

جوري
10-22-2009, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Would it satisfy you to know that I have? Although, neither they nor I would not call it a crusade.

All the best,


Faysal
1- It wouldn't matter.. I don't place value on the opinion of one small minority that can't seem to offer others what it alleges that it stands for!

2- I'd actually love to see your replies on the Amish, Mennonite, Hutterites & Hasidic community forums.. I had no idea that they


had internet communities.. would that make you a liar on top of a hypocrite?

3- and lastly, what exactly would you like to call it? if not a crusade which by definition is tending toward a particular end!

all the best of course
Reply

tetsujin
10-22-2009, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
1- It wouldn't matter.. I don't place value on the opinion of one small minority that can't seem to offer others what it alleges that it stands for!

2- I'd actually love to see your replies on the Amish, Mennonite, Hutterites & Hasidic community forums.. I had no idea that they


had internet communities.. would that make you a liar on top of a hypocrite?

3- and lastly, what exactly would you like to call it? if not a crusade which by definition is tending toward a particular end!

all the best of course
It was enough to ask whether it would satisfy you, I didn't state I had already done so. If the answer to the question doesn't matter why waste your time asking the question? I'm sure you don't believe I cared for the answer.

Why do you accuse me of hypocrisy?

All the best,


Faysal
Reply

جوري
10-22-2009, 03:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
It was enough to ask whether it would satisfy you, I didn't state I had already done so. If the answer to the question doesn't matter why waste your time asking the question? I'm sure you don't believe I cared for the answer.

Why do you accuse me of hypocrisy?

All the best,


Faysal
why offer it as a reply then if it had no basis? The answer doesn't matter to me for precisely that reason. I don't care to build my interests against the vain discourse of rancid atheists. I only care to point out the flaw in your argument and I believe I have done precisely that when questioning you, on whether the lack of integration and keeping of one's religious customs, elicits a like response of you to those afore mentioned groups, and it is as well for those reasons that you are both a liar and a hypocrite!

all the best
Reply

tetsujin
10-22-2009, 04:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
why offer it as a reply then if it had no basis? The answer doesn't matter to me for precisely that reason. I don't care to build my interests against the vain discourse of rancid atheists. I only care to point out the flaw in your argument and I believe I have done precisely that when questioning you, on whether the lack of integration and keeping of one's religious customs, elicits a like response of you to those afore mentioned groups, and it is as well for those reasons that you are both a liar and a hypocrite!

all the best
Do you accuse me of a lie I haven't told? In what good conscience can you accuse me of using a flawed argument when I respond to your arguments in kind? You construct straw men and expect me to give you credibility? The response you received was to expose your lack of interest in an argument you began.

Yes, I would say the same to them; although you profess to care not in the least.

So, what have you exposed; that you believe some opinions cannot be expressed until such a time comes when they can expressed to the census of all concerned? It doesn’t matter if this community is the first, fifth, or infinite one to receive my “pearls”. It is in principle the same, so far as I have demonstrated my integrity in all other regards.

I ask you again, why do you accuse me of hypocrisy? What reasons do you have to believe I have not been honest our engagements?


All the best,


Faysal
Reply

titus
10-22-2009, 07:51 AM
you should really direct all that drivel to the Amish communities, hutterites, Hasidic Jews, the folks of china town, little Italy etc etc etc.
I have been to such communities in the US, and I can tell you that they not only keep their culture, but they also assimilate into American culture. They do not cut themselves off.

Go to any Chinatown and you will see that almost all of the residents, except for mainly the new arrivals, speak English as well as most Americans. They have created an identity in the American culture.

The Amish speak many different dialects, but they also speak English. They participate in government, they vote, and in times of war they volunteer with the government to help, although they refuse military service based on religious reasons. In regards to Tetsujin's comments the difference between the Amish and Muslims that he is referring to is that the Amish do not look down upon other Americans because of their belief. In fact if they did it would be considered a sin (pride). They certainly do not attempt to impose their lifestyle and beliefs on the rest of the population.

Visit Little Italy in New York sometime. Great food and proud Americans abound.

Again, referring back to what Tetsujin was saying, these groups that you mention differ from the Muslims he was referring to because they do not despise the nation that they now call home. You don't see these groups talking about how they want the government to change to accommodate their lifestyle and culture, nor do you see these groups talking about wanting to leave their home to go somewhere else.

Yet it is not uncommon to see Muslims moving to Western countries, then talking about how they are surrounded by filth, godlessness, depravity, etc. It is not uncommon for Muslims to move to democracies then talk about how bad the democratic system is. You don't see that in Chinatown or Little Italy or even in the Amish communities. These communities respect the system and live within in. They appreciate the freedoms they have, yet at the same time retain the parts of their culture that they want to keep.

The Chinese in Chinatown are not complaining about Democracy. The Amish in Pennsylvania are not saying that the US should be under religious rule. I am new to these forums but I have already seen Muslims speaking of their dislike of democracy, the filth and depravity of the West, and seen them try to convince people that everyone would be better under Sharia law.

These, I believe, are just some of the reason why there is a perception difference between the assimilation of Muslims in the UK and the assimilation of the groups that you mentioned.

Do I think these perceptions are accurate? Most likely not. Unfortunately it is often the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. In this case it is the loudest complainers that get the most attention for their group.
Reply

جوري
10-22-2009, 11:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I have been to such communities in the US, and I can tell you that they not only keep their culture, but they also assimilate into American culture. They do not cut themselves off.

.
you are full of crap, and though I have got to run to work in five, I have a minute to tell you, that if you in fact have done any research, you'd have learned, that that their alleged failure to 'assimilate' is what forced some of them to migrate to Canada and be tortured in American prisons with the death of some of them for their refusal to partake in such things as the draft when it was mandatory.

That is in fact if I accept the premise that Muslims fail to integrate, as govt. consensus studies shows Muslims to be one of the most successful immigrant groups in the U.S with income and education higher than that of the natives.

Your research like your opinion is as credible as a three dollar bill!

enjoy ignorance for it is indeed bliss... .. 'I just did some research on people whose existence wasn't even known to me two seconds ago and I am already a scholar in the field' -- funny guy.. there you have it folks.. the atheist and pals manifesto!

all the best!
Reply

Argamemnon
10-22-2009, 11:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Originally I thought we could all co-exist. That we cannot co-exists comes from you’re side – not from my side.

I have said this a few times in various threads and get ignored. We can co-exist when:

We live in houses next door to each other.

We know bout our differences and can laugh about them.

Our children play together.

From time to time, if I am out, you give my wife a hand with something and I give you’re wife a hand with something.

We go to a local café for a meal together. I have pork and you have something else.

We could go on and on. In the West Mulsims avoid doing all these things, separate themselves from society so we cannot talk to each other and then claim
Nonsense, I have always had atheist friends and treat everybody with respect. There are Muslims who isolate themselves, but there are also many westerners who don't want anything to do with Muslims.
Reply

جوري
10-22-2009, 11:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Do you accuse me of a lie I haven't told? In what good conscience can you accuse me of using a flawed argument when I respond to your arguments in kind? You construct straw men and expect me to give you credibility? The response you received was to expose your lack of interest in an argument you began.

Yes, I would say the same to them; although you profess to care not in the least.

So, what have you exposed; that you believe some opinions cannot be expressed until such a time comes when they can expressed to the census of all concerned? It doesn’t matter if this community is the first, fifth, or infinite one to receive my “pearls”. It is in principle the same, so far as I have demonstrated my integrity in all other regards.

I ask you again, why do you accuse me of hypocrisy? What reasons do you have to believe I have not been honest our engagements?


All the best,


Faysal
ah, the 900 word essay to over-compensate .. was it not you who had written:

format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
Would it satisfy you to know that I have? Although, neither they nor I would not call it a crusade.

All the best,


Faysal
should I not simply from the latter part of your testimony which is affirmative in nature draw the conclusion that the first part of your testimony is in fact true? do you not understand the implications of what you have written or simply hoping it would earn you a free pass? Again,it is for those reasons that you're indeed a liar and a hypocrite, I hope I have better demonstrated it now in a step wise fashion and with that you can stop hiding under florid words and menacing intent that bear no meaning for the rest can see through that charade!

all the best of course!
Reply

Argamemnon
10-22-2009, 11:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
They certainly do not attempt to impose their lifestyle and beliefs on the rest of the population.
I don't want to "impose" anything on this society. I'm not responsible for the actions of a few idiots. This generalization is a problem. There are idiots in every community, so what?
Reply

aamirsaab
10-22-2009, 12:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
You will have a long wait as I never said that.

I said “the Taliban said hiking is against Islam”. So you need to ask the Taliban.

I have some background. Hiking in the Swat valley was popular from the late 1960’s till the early 1980’s.

Eventually the locals said, that hiking was a waste of time. They pointed to their holy book and said time would be better spent praying to Allah. Hiking was forbidden because its against Islam!

-
I've had quite enough of your nonsense. You were clearly saying because Taliban say no hiking, Islam says no Hiking and you have said it again - as a result, I would like to see any justification from the Quran or Hadith; if you are unable to produce any, kindly retract your statement regarding religion and not being able to hike. It really is very simple: You made the statement (twice now), I am asking you to back it up - if you cannot, retract it. Do not tell me to ask the Taliban - you brought the issue up, the onus belongs to you.

Also, If you are unable to distinguish between the Taliban and Islam, despite many threads and posts (and the numerous sites on the web in general!) dedicated to explaining this to you, I have more than enough reason to ban you for trolling.
Reply

titus
10-22-2009, 02:09 PM
I don't want to "impose" anything on this society. I'm not responsible for the actions of a few idiots. This generalization is a problem. There are idiots in every community, so what?
Ok, let me reply to you and then to Gossamer. Both of you seem to have read my post but neither one comprehended it fully.

I never said you wanted to impose anything on this society. I said there are those that do.

I also said, at the end, concerning those that do "Do I think these perceptions are accurate? Most likely not. Unfortunately it is often the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. In this case it is the loudest complainers that get the most attention for their group.". In other words those that do are the minority. They do not represent most Muslims who have moved to the West, but unfortunately they are often the ones that people pay attention to.

For example, you can have 100 Muslims carrying signs calling for peace and then have one calling for beheading those that don't believe as they do. Which one will make the papers and which one will most non-Muslims pay attention to?

you are full of crap, and though I have got to run to work in five, I have a minute to tell you, that if you in fact have done any research, you'd have learned, that that their alleged failure to 'assimilate' is what forced some of them to migrate to Canada and be tortured in American prisons with the death of some of them for their refusal to partake in such things as the draft when it was mandatory.
I know about the draft and their treatment. I also know you are talking about incidents that happened almost a century ago.

There were Amish that were beaten for refusing military service during the first World War. They were not beaten for "being different" or "refusing to assimilate". They were beaten because the idiots in the prison considered them unpatriotic, they saw them as refusing what they considered to be their civic duty, and for other prison regulations that they refused to follow because of their beliefs. This has long since changed and the US government does not draft Amish into military service.

That is in fact if I accept the premise that Muslims fail to integrate, as govt. consensus studies shows Muslims to be one of the most successful immigrant groups in the U.S with income and education higher than that of the natives.
I wasn't referring to US Muslims in my post. In fact I specifically mentioned Muslims integrating into the UK. Muslims in the US have integrated quite well.

enjoy ignorance for it is indeed bliss... .. 'I just did some research on people whose existence wasn't even known to me two seconds ago and I am already a scholar in the field' -- funny guy.. there you have it folks.. the atheist and pals manifesto!
I would suggest reading my posts more thoroughly next time and actually attempting to comprehend what I am saying. Stop thinking you know what I believe or what I am about before you even read the post.

I have been to Chinatown in San Francisco and I have been to Amish areas. I am a 40 year old man with a degree in History. This is not new information to me.

So please stop your platitudes (look up that word, it describes your post beautifully) until your reading comprehension improves. If you want to actually have dialogue let me know. If you simply want to insult people that disagree with you then I will learn to try and ignore your posts in the future.
Reply

جوري
10-22-2009, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Ok, let me reply to you and then to Gossamer. Both of you seem to have read my post but neither one comprehended it fully.
It wasn't that profound or even well researched-- how much time do you propose folks should spend of their day deciphering incongruous drivel?


I know about the draft and their treatment. I also know you are talking about incidents that happened almost a century ago.
I am glad google worked for you.. did the same page not distinguish you the difference between Hutterites, Amish and Mennonites just the same, or you enjoy lumping everything into one pigeonhole? Also what is the point whether it was during WWI or the gulf war? perhaps if there is a point you can tie it together nicely for us?
There were Amish that were beaten for refusing military service during the first World War. They were not beaten for "being different" or "refusing to assimilate". They were beaten because the idiots in the prison considered them unpatriotic, they saw them as refusing what they considered to be their civic duty, and for other prison regulations that they refused to follow because of their beliefs. This has long since changed and the US government does not draft Amish into military service.
Completely irrelevant. I am yet to be introduced to your definition of 'Assimilated' And why you think colonies that live completely separate and restrained from the rest of the U.S are better assimilated than Muslims?



I wasn't referring to US Muslims in my post. In fact I specifically mentioned Muslims integrating into the UK. Muslims in the US have integrated quite well.
Ah, then perhaps you should have skipped your replies all together?
1- My post wasn't directed to a comment that you had made!
2- My post questions the integrity of someone singling out one group of people for their alleged failure to assimilate, while neglecting other groups who by their religious convictions live completely separate from others and manage to get on quite well un-harassed by the forward and progressive!
3- you Gauged in a topic you barely googled properly as even the first paragraph which distinguishes one sub group from another seemed to elude you..
4- but while we are on the topic of the U.K, it does seem by Govt. consensus that female Muslims do better than the female natives of both parties i.e those of them religious and those of them not.. No comment on that either... just a dandy catch all phrase?


I would suggest reading my posts more thoroughly next time and actually attempting to comprehend what I am saying. Stop thinking you know what I believe or what I am about before you even read the post.
See first paragraph-- I am not 'thinking what you believe' -- what you believe it what you write, and it is the usual run of the mill inane drivel!
I have been to Chinatown in San Francisco and I have been to Amish areas. I am a 40 year old man with a degree in History. This is not new information to me.
I am grateful for your list of accolades.. are you applying for a job here or wish to loan what you scribble some credence by swanking your resume?

So please stop your platitudes (look up that word, it describes your post beautifully) until your reading comprehension improves. If you want to actually have dialogue let me know. If you simply want to insult people that disagree with you then I will learn to try and ignore your posts in the future.
Yes, you do that.. while at it, try to reply back when directly addressed this round of shootings with the atheist BB gun really wasn't yours to struggle with.. I hazard think of what my day will be like if you put me on your ignore list?.. Oh sorrow.. :hmm:
Reply

titus
10-23-2009, 03:17 AM
you Gauged in a topic you barely googled properly as even the first paragraph which distinguishes one sub group from another seemed to elude you..
Huh? What in my posts would give any indication that I was not aware of the difference between any of the subgroups I discussed?

I am grateful for your list of accolades.. are you applying for a job here or wish to loan what you scribble some credence by swanking your resume?
I was attempting to show that I am speaking about subjects that I am familiar with. Maybe you accuse others of Googling so quickly because you do so often, yet there are other people here that actually have an education and have seen the world and know about the examples that you brought up.

Maybe if you stopped assuming you knew everything about the posters before you replied to them you wouldn't look so foolish.

Yes, you do that.. while at it, try to reply back when directly addressed this round of shootings with the atheist BB gun really wasn't yours to struggle with.
Then maybe you should put your thoughts into private messages. The point of an open forum like this one is for public discourse in which any member may take part.

Also what is the point whether it was during WWI or the gulf war? perhaps if there is a point you can tie it together nicely for us?
Were we talking about present day or ancient history? If we are talking about current day situations then lets compare apples to apples and bring up examples that are occurring currently.
Reply

جوري
10-23-2009, 03:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Huh? What in my posts would give any indication that I was not aware of the difference between any of the subgroups I discussed?
This:
format_quote Originally Posted by titus

There were Amish that were beaten for refusing military service during the first World War. .
you can't scroll back a post up to see how what you have written is incongruous with history?

During World War I, the pacifist Hutterites suffered persecution in the United States. In the most severe case, four Hutterite men subjected to military draft who refused to comply were imprisoned and tortured. Ultimately, two died at Leavenworth Military Prison from mistreatment, after the Armistice had been signed ending the war.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite
if you are going to google and then pretend you are a history buff, at least give us the common courtesy to acknowledge the proper group!
I doubt you have any clue at this stage on how to land this airplane so that the end has some commonality with the beginning!

I was attempting to show that I am speaking about subjects that I am familiar with. Maybe you accuse others of Googling so quickly because you do so often, yet there are other people here that actually have an education and have seen the world and know about the examples that you brought up.
Yes, indeed, and thank you for demonstrating how well educated you are :D

Maybe if you stopped assuming you knew everything about the posters before you replied to them you wouldn't look so foolish.
don't reply to posts not directed at you, and you won't end up publicly humiliated for more than one count indecency!


Then maybe you should put your thoughts into private messages. The point of an open forum like this one is for public discourse in which any member may take part.
Great, and you have received the appropriate replies for your drivel!

Were we talking about present day or ancient history? If we are talking about current day situations then lets compare apples to apples and bring up examples that are occurring currently.
Such groups are in existence today no? still living the same life style no?
Perhaps the problem is in how you understand and process information!

How is your ignore list coming along?

all the best
Reply

titus
10-23-2009, 04:41 AM
if you are going to google and then pretend you are a history buff, at least give us the common courtesy to acknowledge the proper group!
Use your Google again. You will find that the instance you bring up was not the only one. There were Amish that were conscripted and put in brigs and prisons for refusing military service. There were also Mennonites and Hutterites and other religious groups that were imprisoned for the same offenses and treated badly.

es, indeed, and thank you for demonstrating how well educated you are
You are welcome. I am glad to be teaching you something.

Such groups are in existence today no? still living the same life style no?
Perhaps the problem is in how you understand and process information!
They are, but the question was concerning the reaction of people towards these groups and why they are treated differently than Muslims. Today these groups are not beaten for refusing military service, therefore your point is moot.

How is your ignore list coming along?
Notice I am not resorting to personal insults. I am debating the issue at hand. If you have something intelligent to reply with then please do so. If not then please post more insults in an attempt to hide your weakness at making a good point that can stand on its own merit.
Reply

جوري
10-23-2009, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Use your Google again. You will find that the instance you bring up was not the only one. There were Amish that were conscripted and put in brigs and prisons for refusing military service. There were also Mennonites and Hutterites and other religious groups that were imprisoned for the same offenses and treated badly.
Rather you are the one who should use it to validate your points? Logic dictates that I'd have to know who said groups are before googling them? taking a group I afore mentioned and googling it doesn't a scholar make you, it denotes you have a keyboard and internet access, let me be the first to congratulate you for that!


You are welcome. I am glad to be teaching you something.
Clearly you need to familiarize yourself with sarcasm amongst other things ;D



They are, but the question was concerning the reaction of people towards these groups and why they are treated differently than Muslims. Today these groups are not beaten for refusing military service, therefore your point is moot.
The question was never about refusal of military service. The question has always been on groups who keep to themselves, happily keep to their religion and life-style, and don't 'integrate' openly with the rest.
You have neither proved that they are integrated with the rest of society, nor have you proven that Muslims fail to integrate, which was the point your atheo-pal was actually aiming for. Perhaps your take home message is to not fight other people's battles!


Notice I am not resorting to personal insults. I am debating the issue at hand. If you have something intelligent to reply with then please do so. If not then please post more insults in an attempt to hide your weakness at making a good point that can stand on its own merit.
really? you have debated the issue at hand? refusing military service has to do with 'Islamophobia and atheo-fascism'?-- I think firstly you should read before you reply since your replies have no relevance to the points made, and occasionally look at the title to remind yourself, of what it is you are actually arguing for or against.. you are far removed from the topic. I am yet to see you make a good point. In fact if you'd made one, you wouldn't need to hammer it in constantly as if to congratulate yourself ..

all the best
Reply

titus
10-23-2009, 01:47 PM
Rather you are the one who should use it to validate your points? Logic dictates that I'd have to know who said groups are before googling them? taking a group I afore mentioned and googling it doesn't a scholar make you, it denotes you have a keyboard and internet access, let me be the first to congratulate you for that!
So you want me to do your research for you? You are the one that stated that the Amish were not persecuted in WWI. You were wrong, yet I get more insults? Funny stuff.

Clearly you need to familiarize yourself with sarcasm amongst other things
Apparently you cannot recognize it yourself. I was quite aware of your sarcasm, since that is one of your main tool of discussion and you use it with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Mine, though, seems to have gone right over your head.

You cannot seem to make an intelligent argument, so you attack the person who disagrees with you instead of attacking their points. What exactly does that reveal about yourself and your ability to make an intelligent and reasoned response? Think about it. Maybe you will have learned something else from me :statisfie

I think firstly you should read before you reply since your replies have no relevance to the points made, and occasionally look at the title to remind yourself, of what it is you are actually arguing for or against.
You were the one that diverted the topic. You completely ignored the relevant parts of my original post and went off on a tangent. Since you seem to have forgotten them, let me repeat some of them for you:

The Chinese in Chinatown are not complaining about Democracy. The Amish in Pennsylvania are not saying that the US should be under religious rule. I am new to these forums but I have already seen Muslims speaking of their dislike of democracy, the filth and depravity of the West, and seen them try to convince people that everyone would be better under Sharia law.

These, I believe, are just some of the reason why there is a perception difference between the assimilation of Muslims in the UK and the assimilation of the groups that you mentioned.

Do I think these perceptions are accurate? Most likely not. Unfortunately it is often the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. In this case it is the loudest complainers that get the most attention for their group.
Reply

جوري
10-23-2009, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
So you want me to do your research for you? You are the one that stated that the Amish were not persecuted in WWI. You were wrong, yet I get more insults? Funny stuff.
Rather when you write you need to support your views, I merely pointed out that you can't distinguish one group Anabaptist from the next, which you can't!


Apparently you cannot recognize it yourself. I was quite aware of your sarcasm, since that is one of your main tool of discussion and you use it with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Mine, though, seems to have gone right over your head.
What has gone over my head?

You cannot seem to make an intelligent argument, so you attack the person who disagrees with you instead of attacking their points. What exactly does that reveal about yourself and your ability to make an intelligent and reasoned response? Think about it. Maybe you will have learned something else from me :statisfie
Where is the intelligence in any of your 'arguments' what is your point? Do you actually have a point?


You were the one that diverted the topic. You completely ignored the relevant parts of my original post and went off on a tangent. Since you seem to have forgotten them, let me repeat some of them for you:
Go ahead point out the relevance of your post to 'Islamophobia and atheo-fascism'

The Chinese in Chinatown are not complaining about Democracy. The Amish in Pennsylvania are not saying that the US should be under religious rule. I am new to these forums but I have already seen Muslims speaking of their dislike of democracy, the filth and depravity of the West, and seen them try to convince people that everyone would be better under Sharia law. These, I believe, are just some of the reason why there is a perception difference between the assimilation of Muslims in the UK and the assimilation of the groups that you mentioned.
Democracy by definition is a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them-- the fact that Muslims dislike the system in which they find themselves for its failure to recognize its own basic tenets doesn't denote they want to usurp its govt. Thus again, you have failed to demonstrate any relevance or a solid argument of topic to point, you have merely highlighted the irrational fear and hatred of the west toward anything Islamic, not because of failure to 'integrate' or for keeping their identity, rather for the obvious reasons which you and your ilk choose to define behind obscure banners and mum at best when having the hypocrisy of it pointed out publicly.
You have no understanding of basic definitions. You don't know what shari'a law stands for, and how or why or in which ways that is at odds with 'democracy'!

Do I think these perceptions are accurate? Most likely not. Unfortunately it is often the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. In this case it is the loudest complainers that get the most attention for their group.
Sounds like an adequate assessment of yourself..

all the best!
Reply

OurIslamic
10-23-2009, 03:28 PM
It's not good that people are afraid of Islam. I'd rather that they didn't know about it than have negative feelings regarding it.
Reply

julesfly
10-23-2009, 04:44 PM
It appears some people are more interested in arguing about who more articulately argues rather than the content of the argument. It is hard to have these discussions without making generalisations which cause personal offence on both sides but personal insults dont help. Some seem to be arguing over who is most educated and yet seem to not have left the school playground! Our Islamic i assure you not everyone is scared of Islam or makes these types of generalisations.
Reply

جوري
10-23-2009, 05:57 PM
Who are you addressing exactly in your posts? I am not the one posting my resume and claiming to be a history buff while taking the circuitous route to avoid answering how Muslims fail to integrate, while other very pooled religious denominations do just that and left alone if not in fact applauded for it.

As for who is scared or not scared of Islam and for what reason, is an issue that doesn't matter to me personally, PR moves are left to politicians. Islam is a Religion that is also a way of life and is a done deal.. there is no room for interpretation to accommodate the 'concerned and frightened'

all the best
Reply

cat eyes
10-23-2009, 06:09 PM
i believe that its the muslim governments thats causing all this they are doing so much dirty work and pakistan is a country of murdering criminals bombing innocent people and who do the people look to is the taliban and then people over here in the west thinking look at those murdering muslims then we all have to suffer hearing all of this thats what we have to put with and who is the taliban getting trained by we probably all have a fair idea its all one big game to stop the spread of islam and the west hating us more and more
Reply

GuestFellow
10-23-2009, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Who are you addressing exactly in your posts? I am not the one posting my resume and claiming to be a history buff while taking the circuitous route to avoid answering how Muslims fail to integrate, while other very pooled religious denominations do just that and left alone if not in fact applauded for it.
Salaam.

Yes I do not understand when people say Muslims do not integrate with other members of the society. Specifically I would like non-Muslim members to point out how Muslims fail to integrate with society.
Reply

جوري
10-23-2009, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Salaam.

Yes I do not understand when people say Muslims do not integrate with other members of the society. Specifically I would like non-Muslim members to point out how Muslims fail to integrate with society.
It is just the crap they peddle, like 'freedom fries' or 'they hate our freedom' or 'come to hooters for a good time'
Just a motto to justify their hatred and ignorance, and bury their head in the sand, I mean if your country were hijacked by cave dwellers with plastic knives and invisible airplanes that went into the very citadel that symbolizes power, wouldn't you want to know what is their secret? or rather what your country is hiding from you and for what purpose?
They produce ignorant herds by the bush-loads and to sustain their hedonistic meaningless lives, they have to make others into some sort of scape goat to justify their occupation, hatred and frank looting!

:wa:
Reply

Argamemnon
10-23-2009, 09:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
t to politicians. Islam is a Religion that is also a way of life and is a done deal.. there is no room for interpretation to accommodate the 'concerned and frightened'
Salam,

I know this is off topic, but I don't agree that there is 'no room' for interpretation in Islam, or that Islam is a 'done deal'. I disagree with the idea that the 'door of ijtihad is closed'. This might be an interesting topic, although I doubt that most people here are mature enough to openly discuss these issues. It's a very sensitive subject.
Reply

جوري
10-23-2009, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Salam,

I know this is off topic, but I don't agree that there is 'no room' for interpretation in Islam, or that Islam is a 'done deal'. I disagree with the idea that the 'door of ijtihad is closed'. This might be an interesting topic, although I doubt that most people here are mature enough to openly discuss these issues. It's a very sensitive subject.
:sl:

I am not talking about ijtihad fi deen. I am talking about re-interpreting Islamic jurisprudence to acquiesce to western standards.. not that they'd even be pleased with that, as so Allah swt tells us in his most noble book!

:wa:
Reply

Ansariyah
10-23-2009, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
This topic has probably been discussed before, but I don't visit this forum regularly, so please forgive me. I'm very worried about my future as a Muslim here in western Europe. There is so much anti-Islam propaganda, especially young people seem to hate Islam and Muslims to the extent that there can be no coexistence in the future......

That's my opinion based on what I see, hear and read. I believe a future Holocaust of Muslims is not as far-fetched as some people believe. All western children are brainwashed with anti-Islam propaganda by Islamophobes and atheo-fascists (Godless atheist bigots), so how could one be optimistic about the future?
I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to migrate to a Muslim country. I can't imagine living in the West in the year 2030-2040.
Is that why Islam is the fastest growing religion in europe & all over the world?

Look at indonasia a country that was under Christian colonial rule for hundreds of years. It was soon after Muslim traders started visiting Indonasia that people started becomin Muslim n today Indonasia has the largest Muslim population!

Everyone is not a immigrant anymore, a lot of people have been born n bred here this our home. No one has any right to make us feel inferior unless we let them.

Moving to a Muslim country is all good, but if we all leave things will not get better in non-Muslim countries.
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Argamemnon
10-23-2009, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanoorah
Is that why Islam is the fastest growing religion in europe & all over the world?
Salam,

Muslim countries have a high fertility rate, although it's declining fast in some countries (Iran, Turkey, north Africa). I wonder how many people actually convert. I do know that some naive Muslims seem to believe that the whole world is "turning to Islam", which is a major exaggeration. Even if we assume that annually 100,000 people across the world convert to Islam, this is still an insignificant number...
Reply

Mujahideen92
10-23-2009, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
This topic has probably been discussed before, but I don't visit this forum regularly, so please forgive me. I'm very worried about my future as a Muslim here in western Europe. There is so much anti-Islam propaganda, especially young people seem to hate Islam and Muslims to the extent that there can be no coexistence in the future......

That's my opinion based on what I see, hear and read. I believe a future Holocaust of Muslims is not as far-fetched as some people believe. All western children are brainwashed with anti-Islam propaganda by Islamophobes and atheo-fascists (Godless atheist bigots), so how could one be optimistic about the future?

I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to migrate to a Muslim country. I can't imagine living in the West in the year 2030-2040.
Salam brother. I can see why you are worried. But from what i have seen, the West is gradually starting to learn more about Islam and appreciating it alot more.

It was alot worse 20 years ago compared to today.
Reply

titus
10-24-2009, 05:15 AM
Rather when you write you need to support your views, I merely pointed out that you can't distinguish one group Anabaptist from the next, which you can't!
Are you claiming I am wrong when I state that Amish were imprisoned and abused during WWI for not joining the military?

You accused me of Googling what I know, now you want me to Google so I can provide links to you? Oh, the irony.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish2.htm
And another

If you want more then let me know.

What has gone over my head?
Thank you. Best laugh I had all day was reading that line.

You have no understanding of basic definitions. You don't know what shari'a law stands for, and how or why or in which ways that is at odds with 'democracy'!
Once again you make presumptions about me without knowing anything about me, and once again you are completely wrong. Exactly what makes you think you have the first clue what I believe or what my knowledge is? Is it because I am not a Muslim you automatically consider me ignorant? Or is there some other reason?

I am not the one posting my resume and claiming to be a history buff while taking the circuitous route to avoid answering how Muslims fail to integrate, while other very pooled religious denominations do just that and left alone if not in fact applauded for it.
I only told you about my degree in response to a comment you made about my ignorance. I was only attempting to show you that your assumption about me was wrong.

As for answering the question "how Muslims fail to integrate", I know you have read my posts but you still haven't understood them. I made it clear that I do not believe most Muslims fail to integrate. In fact I said that the perception of their failing to integrate can probably be based upon a few vocal Muslims who have moved to the West then do nothing but criticize its culture and its system of government.

Now that I have explained this view for the third time, do you understand my point yet or do I need to try and rephrase it again?

Salam brother. I can see why you are worried. But from what i have seen, the West is gradually starting to learn more about Islam and appreciating it alot more.

It was alot worse 20 years ago compared to today.
Very true. In my experience it is the ones that know the least about Muslims that fear them the most.
Reply

جوري
10-24-2009, 05:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Are you claiming I am wrong when I state that Amish were imprisoned and abused during WWI for not joining the military?

You accused me of Googling what I know, now you want me to Google so I can provide links to you? Oh, the irony.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish2.htm
And another

If you want more then let me know.
How are you wrong or right on something that I have already previously pointed out which you put in a search engine? Do you need to purge yourself of the most recent intellectual enema?


Thank you. Best laugh I had all day was reading that line.
fits of cachinnation are an ominous sign of schizophrenia, I'd get that checked out along with other disorders that seem to plague you!



Once again you make presumptions about me without knowing anything about me, and once again you are completely wrong. Exactly what makes you think you have the first clue what I believe or what my knowledge is? Is it because I am not a Muslim you automatically consider me ignorant? Or is there some other reason?
Again, we only know about you from what you write.. if you distill a topic down to drafting of a pacifist group and think somehow that ties with 'Islamophobia and atheo-fascism' then what choice have we but to conclude the obvious? If you had something of substance to impart it should rather be visible in your writing.. there are many intelligent non-Muslims on board, I can't qualify you even as mediocre, which is a shame if you are indeed as old as you allege to be.. actual age and your own development of reason seem to be incongruous at best!


I only told you about my degree in response to a comment you made about my ignorance. I was only attempting to show you that your assumption about me was wrong.
But it only served as the final nail in your coffin and it is ironic that you don't see it as such!

As for answering the question "how Muslims fail to integrate", I know you have read my posts but you still haven't understood them. I made it clear that I do not believe most Muslims fail to integrate. In fact I said that the perception of their failing to integrate can probably be based upon a few vocal Muslims who have moved to the West then do nothing but criticize its culture and its system of government.
You don't really get the luxury to change your premise as you go along and when at a loss for logic, and you'd have in fact better off letting the 'iron man' to fight his own battles..

Now that I have explained this view for the third time, do you understand my point yet or do I need to try and rephrase it again?
You can try several more times, you might actually believe you have made a valid one at the end.. as the adage so goes, if a fool persists in his folly he'll become a wise man!


Very true. In my experience it is the ones that know the least about Muslims that fear them the most.
Your experience has indeed impressed upon us..

all the best!
Reply

titus
10-24-2009, 05:57 AM
How are you wrong or right on something that I have already previously pointed out which you put in a search engine?
Let me go over what we said to refresh your memory.

I said that Amish were abused in WWI.
You said something to effect "no, it was another group you ignorant idiot"
I showed that yes, indeed, there were Amish that were abused (without any personal insults).

During this you also stated as a fact that I googled the information (which I didn't or I would have been more detailed), then you googled up some irrelevant information in a poor attempt to prove me wrong.

You don't really get the luxury to change your premise as you go along and when at a loss for logic, and you'd have in fact better off letting the 'iron man' to fight his own battles..
Considering that premise was what I concluded my first post on this topic with I don't see how you claim I changed it. Please read the last couple of paragraphs of my first post again. I have posted it twice.


I tell you what Gossamer. How about we start over. You throw away all these preconceived notions about who and what you think I am or what I believe, I'll throw away mine, and lets have reasonable discussions about topics that interest us on this forum without insulting each other. How does that sound?
Reply

جوري
10-24-2009, 06:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Let me go over what we said to refresh your memory.

I said that Amish were abused in WWI.
You said something to effect "no, it was another group you ignorant idiot"
I showed that yes, indeed, there were Amish that were abused (without any personal insults).
Rather let me refresh yours:

Originally Posted by tetsujin


There is that sense of "the other" which you will find everywhere. There is also an issue with immigrants who wish to keep their own culture and values but in the process do not take the time to understand the history and culture of the country they've moved to.


Gossamer you should really direct all that drivel to the Amish communities, hutterites, Hasidic Jews, the folks of china town, little Italy etc etc etc.
or is it just Muslims that peeve you for their lack of acclimation or perhaps is that you are a typical brain washed hypocrite from the other end of the spectrum?
to which you later shared your pearls:
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I have been to such communities in the US, and I can tell you that they not only keep their culture, but they also assimilate into American culture. They do not cut themselves off.
.
to which I have later asserted, that they were isolated and even persecuted...
hmmmmmm.. I think I'll leave it to the discerning readers to decide!

During this you also stated as a fact that I googled the information (which I didn't or I would have been more detailed), then you googled up some irrelevant information in a poor attempt to prove me wrong.
See above.. plus indeed, you have either haphazardly googled them, assumed the rest of us failed to integrate enough to have seen, visited and bought goods from them first hand and thus your comments would simply fly by, you failed to draw simile between their life style, that of Muslims, how they are better integrated and in which ways Muslims aren't... it is really not that difficult to go back a page and see it unravel?


Considering that premise was what I concluded my first post on this topic with I don't see how you claim I changed it. Please read the last couple of paragraphs of my first post again. I have posted it twice.
I have already commented on all your paragraphs and need not rehash it, simply for writer's remorse!.. we offer no refunds on changing your minds on what your pen--keyboard has uttered!


I tell you what Gossamer. How about we start over. You throw away all these preconceived notions about who and what you think I am or what I believe, I'll throw away mine, and lets have reasonable discussions about topics that interest us on this forum without insulting each other. How does that sound?
I have no preconceived notions about you, I have no idea who you are.. but would indeed like to hit the sac and call it a day..

all the best
Reply

titus
10-24-2009, 06:25 AM
you failed to draw simile between their life style, that of Muslims, how they are better integrated and in which ways Muslims aren't
Maybe that's because I never tried to say that Muslims are not integrated. How difficult is that concept to understand? In fact I have said the exact opposite multiple times.

See above.. plus indeed, you have either haphazardly googled them, assumed the rest of us failed to integrate enough to have seen, visited and bought goods from them first hand and thus your comments would simply fly by, you failed to draw simile between their life style, that of Muslims, how they are better integrated and in which ways Muslims aren't... it is really not that difficult to go back a page and see it unravel?
I did post the difference between the perceptions of the groups you mentioned and the perception of Muslims by some people. It is post #48. Let quote some of it for you:

Again, referring back to what Tetsujin was saying, these groups that you mention differ from the Muslims he was referring to because they do not despise the nation that they now call home.

I also said:

Yet it is not uncommon to see Muslims moving to Western countries, then talking about how they are surrounded by filth, godlessness, depravity, etc. It is not uncommon for Muslims to move to democracies then talk about how bad the democratic system is. You don't see that in Chinatown or Little Italy or even in the Amish communities. These communities respect the system and live within in. They appreciate the freedoms they have, yet at the same time retain the parts of their culture that they want to keep.

How can you possibly say that this is not drawing a comparison between those communities and some in the Muslim community?

I don't recall ever seeing anyone from Chinatown or Little Italy or any Amish person insulting their country the way some Muslims do. You do not see anyone from Chinatown or Little Italy or any Amish asking for a separate legal system for their community. You do see it, though, from a vocal minority of Muslims in some countries, and that is why there is a perception of a lack of integration among some non-Muslims.

Do you deny this is true?

we offer no refunds on changing your minds on what your pen--keyboard has uttered!
Since I have yet to change my mind or contradict myself no refund is required. Sleep tight.
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