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Aliyah_86
10-26-2009, 12:16 AM
Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters,

I need your advice on how to handle this situation, I have been trying for so long to make these girls see sense but they just won't listen!

Ok, so I have a group of friends who are quite practising; they wear hijab and pray and things, but they hang around with muslim boys of the same age as them, they are all 21/22. When I tell these sisters that they shouldn't be hanging around with boys and going out to places to eat and socialise with them they tell me that they are doing nothing wrong. When I try and explain that guys and girls are not allowed to socialise with other in the manner that they do they come out with that it is forbidden for a guy and girl to be alone together but that as there is a big group of them that they are doing nothing wrong! And that as none of them are girlfriend/boyfriend and they are all just friends they are also not doing anything wrong. They also hug these guys because apparently they are like 'brothers' to them.

I love these girls for the sake of Allah and really want them to understand that they shouldn't be doing all this. What should I say to them? Please help!

Jazak'Allah
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Sampharo
10-26-2009, 03:11 AM
Wooooaaah. HUG?! <_< Subhan Allah.

Not uncommon for regular relaxed muslims of North African and Levant countries to do that, but you said they were practicing and wearing hijab. That's new.

Focus on that, the hugging thing. That's a specific physical touch that is forbidden with hadith text.

The prophet -pbuh- said: "To get stabbed with a steel needle in one's head is better for any of you than to touch a woman that is not halal for him." لأَنْ يُطْعَنَ فِي رَأْسِ أَحَدِكُمْ بِمِخْيَطٍ مِنْ حَدِيدٍ خَيْرٌ لَهُ مِنْ أَنْ يَمَسَّ امْرَأَةً لا تَحِلُّ لَهُ

This goes the same for a woman touching a man who is not halal for her.

If they're used to mixing and you already spoke of it, you won't get anywhere fruitful because there are different opinions regarding that and no specific text to forbid it, just the sunnah and the behavioural examples which they will always ask "where is the forbiddence?".

Jazakillahu Khairan
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cat eyes
10-26-2009, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aliyah_86
Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters,

I need your advice on how to handle this situation, I have been trying for so long to make these girls see sense but they just won't listen!

Ok, so I have a group of friends who are quite practising; they wear hijab and pray and things, but they hang around with muslim boys of the same age as them, they are all 21/22. When I tell these sisters that they shouldn't be hanging around with boys and going out to places to eat and socialise with them they tell me that they are doing nothing wrong. When I try and explain that guys and girls are not allowed to socialise with other in the manner that they do they come out with that it is forbidden for a guy and girl to be alone together but that as there is a big group of them that they are doing nothing wrong! And that as none of them are girlfriend/boyfriend and they are all just friends they are also not doing anything wrong. They also hug these guys because apparently they are like 'brothers' to them.

I love these girls for the sake of Allah and really want them to understand that they shouldn't be doing all this. What should I say to them? Please help!

Jazak'Allah
may Allah reward you for trying to guide them on the right path i am shocked to hear about the hugging:ooh: if a non mahram touched me id be like what the hell you are doing knowing whats in the mind of a man when it comes to women i have 3brothers lol believe me i would find it hard to believe that this is anything but a innocent little friendship<_< id believe these brothers would be trying to score with one of them. they probably go home then and talk about your friends to there mates and say that they are slags you just don't know a guys mentality but the majority of guys who do this there no good believe me and i suggest you carry on WARNING THEM. i truly love and admire you sister. MASHALLAAH
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Mujahideen92
10-26-2009, 07:12 PM
I see that alot, its sad really. They think just because they are all Muslim, its ok. But its not.
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Aliyah_86
10-26-2009, 09:01 PM
Jazak'Allah for your comments guys.

Thank you sister Cat eyes for your lovely comments!

Ok say I get through to the girls about the hugging thing? What about the free mixing thing? Brother Sampharo you said there are no text forbidding this but I always thought free mixing was strictly forbidden in Islam? Am I wrong? Are there differing views?

Please help! I really want the best for these girls!
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ahmed_indian
10-27-2009, 01:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aliyah_86
but I always thought free mixing was strictly forbidden in Islam? Am I wrong? Are there differing views?
yes u r right....a man and woman can talk to each when:

1. others can see them
2. it is necessary (eg. buying in a market, asking location, etc).

so free-mixing like chit-chatting, having fun is not allowed.

PS: u can advice them by telling them to fear Allah. death is not necessary to come @ age 60. it can come any time. also the enjoyments in Paradise. u can get whtever u desire.
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Hamza Asadullah
10-28-2009, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aliyah_86
Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters,

I need your advice on how to handle this situation, I have been trying for so long to make these girls see sense but they just won't listen!

Ok, so I have a group of friends who are quite practising; they wear hijab and pray and things, but they hang around with muslim boys of the same age as them, they are all 21/22. When I tell these sisters that they shouldn't be hanging around with boys and going out to places to eat and socialise with them they tell me that they are doing nothing wrong. When I try and explain that guys and girls are not allowed to socialise with other in the manner that they do they come out with that it is forbidden for a guy and girl to be alone together but that as there is a big group of them that they are doing nothing wrong! And that as none of them are girlfriend/boyfriend and they are all just friends they are also not doing anything wrong. They also hug these guys because apparently they are like 'brothers' to them.

I love these girls for the sake of Allah and really want them to understand that they shouldn't be doing all this. What should I say to them? Please help!

Jazak'Allah
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb, unfortunatley sister thats how it starts off. It always starts as something innocent and then moves onto feelings developing between a man and a women and then it goes on from there. It is shaythan who has fooled them into thinking that what their doing is "normal" and "innocent" when in fact he is luring them into his trap. Once the feelings are developed it then becomnes difficult for the couple to let go of each other and then inevitabley someone will get hurt and even scarred for life. Its the usual story.

Here is the evidance that you should show them that free mixing and intermingling between the sexes is haram and leads to further haraam. Sister if they don't come around then you should save yourself from company like this because we are who our friends are and their deeds and influence will eventually rub off on us even if we think it won't.

The body of evidence showing that women and men should not mix freely with one another is quite large. We will briefly mention some of it:

1. Allah says: “And when you ask the ladies for anything, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 53] For women to go about uncovered in the company of men is inarguably a gross violation of the command given in this verse.

2. It is prohibited for men to join women in one place in the absence of at least one of the women’s close male relatives. The Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade men and women from being alone together. He said: “Never is a man alone with a woman except that Satan is the third party with them.”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.”

A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.

This hadîth emphasizes the importance of being wary of in-laws since they are likely to have more opportunities to be alone with the woman and to see her as others do not get the opportunity to see her.

The private meeting between a man and an unchaperoned woman is one of the serious forms of mixing that can take place between the sexes. Temptations are worse when the people know that they are shielded from the sight of others.

Ibn Daqîq al-`Îd makes the following important observation: “We must take into consideration whether or not the man’s arrival at a place brings about a situation where he is alone with the woman. If it does not do so, it is not unlawful for him to go there.” (2/181)

This point was made clear by the Prophet (peace be upon him) when he said: “No man should enter into the presence of a woman after this day unless he is accompanied by one or two other men.” [Sahîh Muslim]

3. There are numerous evidences that the woman may not shake hands with men who are not among her closest relatives.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) never shook hands with an unrelated woman. Umaymah b. Raqîqah said: “I came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) with a group of the women of Madinah to swear fealty for Islam. The women informed Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) that they wished to swear fealty to him. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘I do not shake hands with women. The way I accept the pledge from one woman is the same as with one hundred women.” [al-Muwatta’, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan al-Nasa’î and Sunan Ibn Majah].

The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “It is better for one of you to be pierced by a steel pin in his head than to touch the hand of a strange woman.” [Al-Mundhirî mentions that all the narrators of this hadîth are trustworthy

4. The Qur’ân clearly forbids women from being soft of speech while talking to men. Allah says: “Be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) proper.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 32].

5. There is evidence that women may not sit with strange men while wearing perfume. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Any woman who puts on perfume then goes and passes by some men to let them find her scent is a type of adulteress.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan Abî Dâwûd, and Sunan al-Nasâ’î with a sound chain of transmission]

6. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The best of rows in prayer for the man is the first row and the worst for him is the last, and the best of rows for the women is the last row and the worst for her is the first.” [Sahîh Muslim].

If this advice is being given for men and women when they are in their purest frame of mind and engaged in prayer, then how should they be expected to conduct themselves in other situations?

Ibn `Abbâs relates that he prayed one of the `Îd prayers with the Prophet (peace be upon him). He informs us that the Prophet (peace be upon him) prayed and offered a sermon, then he went to the women and offered to them a separate sermon, admonishing them and encouraging them to give charity. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

Ibn Hajr offers the following observations about this hadîth: “The fact that he went to the women separately shows that the women were assembled separately from the men and were not mixed in with them.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/466)]

7. Once the Prophet (peace be upon him) saw men and women mixing together on the road upon their departure from the mosque. He said to the women: “Hold back a bit. You do not have to walk in the middle of the road. You may keep to the sides.” The narrator of the hadîth commented that after that time, women would come so close to the buildings that their dresses would sometime cling to the walls.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission]

Ibn `Umar related that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said about one of the mosque’s doors: “We should leave this door exclusively for women to use.” Ibn `Umar, until he died, never again entered through that door. [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission]

Umm Salamah said: “When the Prophet (peace be upon him) completed the prayer, the women would get up to leave. He would then wait awhile before standing.” Ibn Shahâb said: “I believe that he waited for a while to give the women an opportunity to depart before the men.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

Ibn Hajr comments: “In the hadîth, we see that it is disliked for men and women to mix on the road. How much more, then, should such mixing be avoided inside of houses.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/336)]

8. It was related in al-Bukhârî that women at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not circumambulate the Ka`bah along with the men. `Â’ishah used to go around the Ka`bah at a good distance from the men and avoided mixing with them. Once another woman bade to her to go forward with her so they could touch the corner of the Ka`bah. `Â’ishah refused to do so. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

One of `Âishah’s handmaidens came to her and said: “O Mother of believers, I went around the Ka`bah seven times and touched the corner twice or trice”.

`Âishah replied: “May Allah not reward you for pushing your way through men. It would have been sufficient for you to you to say “Allah Akbar” as you passed by”. [Musnad al-Shâfi`î]

There are two things that this shows us. First, `Â’ishah did not hesitate to circumambulate the Ka`bah when there were men around, nor did she forbid other women from doing so. She only refrained from crowding into men and mixing with them and this is what she prohibited others from doing. This shows us in the clearest of terms that the mere presence of men and women in the same place is not prohibited.

Second, the mixing and contact between men and women circumambulating the Ka`bah that unavoidably occurs during Hajj under today’s crowded conditions cannot be used as proof that such mixing is generally allowed. Firstly, the practice of the people does not constitute any sort of evidence in Islamic Law. Secondly, what is happening today during Hajj is unavoidable. It is permitted out of necessity and cannot be made into a general rule for all times and circumstances. It would be fruitless for us to try and demand that women avoid contact with men while circumambulating the Ka`bah during Hajj. It would be equally impossible to ask them to delay their circumambulations until the crowds depart, especially since the women on Hajj are always accompanied by the others who came with them who cannot be forced to wait around.

It is pure sophistry for anyone to use these exceptional circumstances to argue that men and women are allowed to mingle under circumstances where no necessity exists. It is just as baseless as taking the other extreme and declaring the mere presence or men and women in the same place to be unlawful mixing.

We will conclude by mentioning a few verses of the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Nor come nigh to adultery”. In this verse, Allah does not say “Do not commit adultery” but tells us not even to come close to it. This means that everything that may seduce a person to fall into adultery is unlawful.

Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31] This shows us how men and women are to conduct themselves.

Check out these links aswell:

How Should a Muslim Woman Conduct Herself?

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar

Talking with Members of the Opposite Sex

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar

Hugging the Opposite Sex

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar
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cat eyes
10-28-2009, 01:29 PM
brother hamza i am loving your advice your giving to brothers and sisters on IB im learning alot from you already. keep it up MashaAllah:)
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Far7an
10-29-2009, 12:37 PM
:sl:

Sh Abu Eesa gave a talk yesturday and someone asked him a question about brothers and sisters mixing freely. I really hope someone recorded that QnA session so I can share it with you here! Masha'Allah, it was really good.

One of the points he made was that brothers justify talking to sisters by saying, "She is like my sister" or "we're just friends". He responded by saying that is one of the OLDEST lies told in the history of man! No such thing as friends with the opposite gender.
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Asiyah3
10-29-2009, 01:12 PM
As-salaamu aleykum,

One thing I know, mixing like that is undoubtely wrong.

May Allah reward you
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Aliyah_86
10-30-2009, 10:18 PM
Jazak'Allah everyone for your comments! Brother Hamza your post was extremely helpful, thank you so much! I will share this with the girls insh'Allah and insh'Allah they will change their ways!
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Asiyah3
10-30-2009, 10:20 PM
Tell us later what they said, ok?
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Aliyah_86
10-30-2009, 10:27 PM
I will be seeing them tommorrow insha'Allah and I'm praying that they will finally listen to me, I am going to print off the replies I have received for this thread! :statisfie
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alcurad
10-30-2009, 10:50 PM
brother sempharo, this hadeeth:
أَنْ يُطْعَنَ فِي رَأْسِ أَحَدِكُمْ بِمِخْيَطٍ مِنْ حَدِيدٍ خَيْرٌ لَهُ مِنْ أَنْ يَمَسَّ امْرَأَةً لا تَحِلُّ لَهُ
"a man is better to be stabbed/pierced in the with a steel needle than touch a woman that is not lawful for him"

يَمَسَّ/'touching' here is not mere touching, the word is used to mean sexual contact as well, as is probably the case here, hence the harsh warning.

either way, OP, tell them not to, ask parents etc for advice, and if they don't listen leave them but don't do what they are or encourage them. I mean for the majority of people culture defines what is acceptable or not, there's very little use shouting to the wind..
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Sampharo
10-31-2009, 11:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
brother sempharo, this hadeeth:
أَنْ يُطْعَنَ فِي رَأْسِ أَحَدِكُمْ بِمِخْيَطٍ مِنْ حَدِيدٍ خَيْرٌ لَهُ مِنْ أَنْ يَمَسَّ امْرَأَةً لا تَحِلُّ لَهُ
"a man is better to be stabbed/pierced in the with a steel needle than touch a woman that is not lawful for him"

يَمَسَّ/'touching' here is not mere touching, the word is used to mean sexual contact as well, as is probably the case here, hence the harsh warning.
Sorry Alcurad, but that is False. That interpretation has never been said by any scholar of distinction or any madhab. The complete consensus of all hadith scholars within and outside the four known sunni schools of Fiqh as well as the fifth Thahery one agree that this is about flesh touching flesh, not sexual contact. It is refered by sheikhs to advise men who are handshaking women (let alone the apparent hugging now).

Additionally, the hadith mentioned was also followed with: "To place one's shoulder against a filth ridden pig is better for him from placing his shoulder against the SHOULDER of a woman that is not lawful for him." (Narrated by Tabarani)

I know you read Arabic, so this should elaborate.

السؤال
في الحديث عن معقل بن يسار أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: "لأن يطعن في رأس أحدكم بمخيط من حديد خير له من أن يمس امرأة لا تحل له" رواه الطبراني والبيهقي .
يري بعض الناس أن المس هو المباشرة في الفرج على حسب وأن المراة التي لا تحل لي هي محرمي أي لا يحل لي نكاحها

الفتوى
الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه، أما بعد:
فالحديث المذكور صحيح ولم يحمله أحد من أهل العلم على القول الذي ذكرت، وهو قول لا يصح بحال من الأحوال، وتأويل بعيد فاسد فسادا شديدا، وحمل للفظ على غير ظاهره، وما هكذا يكون التعامل مع نصوص الوحي.
فعلى المسلم أن يحمل اللفظ على ظاهره وما هو متبادر من معناه إلى الذهن، ما لم يكن هناك مانع يمنع من حمله على ظاهره.
والنص الذي بين أيدينا يجب حمله على ظاهره كما حمله عليه غير واحد من أهل العلم.
فقد ذكره الحافظ المنذري في الترغيب في غض البصر والترهيب من إطلاقه ومن الخلوة بالأجنبية ولمسها، وأتبعه بحديث: ولأن يزحم رجل خنزيرا متلطخا بطين أو حمأة خير له من أن يزحم منكبه منكب امرأة لا تحل له. رواه الطبراني.
وقد أمر الله عز وجل بغض البصر فقال: [ قُلْ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يَغُضُّوا مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِمْ ] (النور:30). ولا شك أن المس أبلغ في اللذة وأكثر إثارة للشهوة من مجرد النظر.
وعلى هذا.. فالمس في الحديث معناه مجرد لمس البشرة ممن لا تحل، وليس معناه أنه كناية عنالجماع أو ما أشبه ذلك.
وننبه السائل الكريم إلى أن هذا النوع من التأويل البعيد يؤدي إلى تفريغ النصوص من معناها المقصود. وقد يفعل ذلك بعض أهل الأهواء والبدع فيلوي أعناق النصوص لتوافق هواه أو تدعم بدعته.
فعلى المسلم أن يحذر من ذلك ويسأل أهل العلم عما أشكل عليه من النصوص أو تشابه عليه منها.
نسأل الله تعالى التوفيق والسلامة.

ولمزيد من الفائدة، نرجو الاطلاع على الفتوى رقم: 3045 و

31252.

والله أعلم.
المفتي: مركز الفتوى بإشراف د.عبدالله الفقيه
تاريخ الفتوى : 11 جمادي الأولى 1425


Like I mentioned before, if you have personal opinions that you have decided to lead your life with, that is your choice, (you are aware you will be held accountable for it and it doesn't count as ijtihad, right?) but please don't confuse learning muslims here making them think that what you said is valid in any madhab.

God bless, and God knows Best.

Brother Sampharo you said there are no text forbidding this but I always thought free mixing was strictly forbidden in Islam? Am I wrong? Are there differing views?
It's not that, but as brother Hamza displayed it's a string of evidence regarding different situations where the indicating text points to being ALONE with a woman. The quranic verse in Al-Ahzab is specific to the Mothers of the Believers and Ahl Al-Bait (family of the prophet) and some will reject the generalizations, and in the end might tell you to take it easy. What I meant was to be gradual, and when you get them to stay away from hugging, then you can explain the example we find in the prophet and companions and can convince them that separation in social events is the right thing to do.

May God be with you and reward you on your dawah.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-31-2009, 12:41 PM
i would leave that group in my dust
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Raphael
10-31-2009, 03:08 PM
Often the actions of a person betray their true nature. Regardless of what they say, or how they look.

Some people are interested in following the letter of the law, to try and get away with the bare minimum. No one can fool Allah, they are only fooling themselves.

Any brother or sister, that sincerely looks into their heart, will not need a verse from the Quran, or ahadith to prove to them that free mixing is wrong on multiple levels.

Islam has come to destroy all the paths that lead to a sin, and not just the sin itself.

Consider the hadith:

Whatever intoxicates in large quantities, then a small quantity of it is also forbidden.

Abu Dawud, no. 3673


From a rational point of view, minuscule amounts of intoxication may have no effect on you. However it is forbidden, in order to cut a path that leads to weak hearts going astray.

Shaytaan attacks in clever ways.




The Story of Barseesa

There was a man who lived amongst the children of Israel named Barseesa. His worship and devotion to Allah was so great that we call him ‘aabid bani Isra’eel’: the great worshipper from the Children of Israel.

During his time, the King of the land made a call for men to join the army to fight in a jihad against an enemy. Amongst those who wanted to sign up were three brothers, but there was one problem. They had one sister and no other family to look after her. So they decided to go to Barseesa, the righteous man, and ask him to look after her in their absence, as they feared no evil from him.

Barseesa immediately refused their request: he would rather devote his time to worship of Allah. But when the three brothers went away, shaitan came to Barseesa and whispered to him “If you don’t look after the sister, then they will leave her in the hands of someone else, and then her safety isn’t guaranteed.”

So Barseesa changed his mind and took responsibility for the sister while the three brothers left. He left her in a house next to the building in which he prayed and each day he would prepare her some food and leave it outside his house for her, and then she would come and pick it up.

After some time, shaitan again came to Barseesa and suggested “why don’t you go and deliver the food to her doorstep. As it is, she is coming out of the house and everyone sees her, and you can see her inconvenience.”

So Barseesa accepted this suggestion and started taking the food right to the doorstep of where she was staying.

This continued for a while until shaitan came to him again and said “how can you leave the food at her doorstep? She still has to open the door and people see her.” Barseesa again changed his plan and decided to take the food into the house. But that was it, he decide. No further.

So this continued for a while until shaitan came and whispered to him “why dont you ever ask her how she is, at the moment she lives like a prisoner no one ever talks to her.”

So now Barseesa started to talk to her, and soon they were smiling and laughing with each other, and then passions flared. They fell in love, and then Barseesa, `aabid Bani Israeel, committed zina.

The story doesn’t end there because she became pregnant.

Shaitan now came to Barseesa and said “What have you done? If those three brothers come back and find their sister with a child, they will know that you betrayed their trust and committed zina with their sister, and then they are going to kill you. The only way to get out of this situation is to kill the child.” So Barseesa killed the child.

Shaitan came back to him again and warned “Do you think that the woman is going to keep quiet about the fact that you killed her child? The only way you can save yourself from this situation is to kill her too.” So Barseesa killed her as well.

Time passed, and the three brothers returned from jihad and asked for their sister. Barseesa merely pointed to a fake grave in which he had buried some animal bones. So the brothers cried and returned to their home.

However, shaitan came to each of them in a dream and said “that man Barseesa is a liar. When you were away he committed zina with your sister and then he killed her and their child and buried her in such-and-such place. And the grave you were shown is a fake grave with animal bones in it.”

When these three brothers woke up, they were shocked that they had all shared the same dream. So they checked the false grave to find the animal bones, and found the real grave of their sister and her child. When they interrogated Barseesa about it he confessed to everything, so they chained him up and dragged him to the King so that he could be executed.

On the way there, shaitan appeared to Barseesa in a physical form and said “O Barseesa, do you know who I am? I am shaitan, and I am the one who has led you along this path. And now I am the only one who can save you.” Barseesa begged for help, so shaitaan instructed “If you prostrate to me I will save you.” So Barseesa prostrated to shaitan ...and shaitan disappeared.

Barseesa was executed a kaffir. The once best of people, died as the very worst.





There is an old Chinese proverb that says:

"the longest journey begins with the first step"

Free mixing is the first step towards zina. Do you need a verse in the Quran, or ahadith to prove this?

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;

An-Nur (24:31)
Quran



Would any sister declare openly and publicly that they are able to fulfil this ayah in the company of non mahram men? Or are they to following the letter of the law, and fooling themselves?
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