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hadas
10-26-2009, 01:24 PM
Salam and shalom to everyone...

I would like to ask you a question regarding Israel and jewish people.

Do you think that jewish people have a right to live in the Middle East. I read muslim forums and people often say that Jews have no right to be there.

I have nothing against Palestinians, i have nothing against Arab people who live in Europe.

Do you think I have a right to move and live in Israel?
Reply

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GuestFellow
10-26-2009, 03:20 PM
I have Jewish friends. I have nothing against the Jews. Muslims and Jews do share similarities. It is Zionism that I'm not fond of. The ideology itself is not what I have a problem with. It is the impact it had on the Middle East which is what I disprove of.

Jewish people can live in the Middle East if they wish. Jews and Muslims in the past did lived in peace before the State of Israel was even created and before the conflict started.

I dislike how the Israeli government continue to mistreat Palestinians. I believe they should be left alone in peace.
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sister herb
10-26-2009, 03:45 PM
if you move and live to "Israel" (what I call occupied Palestine), then you will live in the land and maybe even a house, whose real owner might be murdered by zionists or expelled by zionists. Do you think it is your right to live there when Palestinians haven´t right to return to they lands and houses?
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 04:02 PM
I am in favor of so if the person is doing so as a pious Jew and not as a zionist and if they have obtained their property Justly. I do disagree with anybody moving into the "Settlements" the zionist government is carving out of Palestinian land stolen from the West bank or Gaza.
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Mujahideen92
10-26-2009, 07:09 PM
Zionism is what most hate, not Jews.
Reply

GuestFellow
10-26-2009, 08:42 PM
There are Jews who dislike Zionism. They're Orthodox Jews.
Reply

Danah
10-26-2009, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
There are Jews who dislike Zionism. They're Orthodox Jews.
That reminds me some videos al Jazeera channel filmed when some Jews were protesting in Europe lifting signs with anti-Zionism words written on it. I think they were trying to tell the world that Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing.
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aamirsaab
10-26-2009, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by hadas
Salam and shalom to everyone...

I would like to ask you a question regarding Israel and jewish people.

Do you think that jewish people have a right to live in the Middle East. I read muslim forums and people often say that Jews have no right to be there.

I have nothing against Palestinians, i have nothing against Arab people who live in Europe.

Do you think I have a right to move and live in Israel?
All human beings have the right to live on this planet, regardless of creed, colour, nationality or otherwise.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2009, 04:32 AM
salaam
Originally Posted by hadas
Salam and shalom to everyone...

I would like to ask you a question regarding Israel and jewish people.

Do you think that jewish people have a right to live in the Middle East. I read muslim forums and people often say that Jews have no right to be there.

I have nothing against Palestinians, i have nothing against Arab people who live in Europe.

Do you think I have a right to move and live in Israel?
as long as the Palestinians want you there (as it is their land to decide), then it's up to them and only them really. i dont think we really have the right to comment.
Reply

JaffaCake
10-27-2009, 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
as long as the Palestinians want you there (as it is their land to decide), then it's up to them and only them really. i dont think we really have the right to comment.
There is another way of looking at it.
Reply

S_87
10-27-2009, 10:32 AM
if i stole ur land and lived in it do i have the right to do so and invite others or is it oppression towards you?
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GuestFellow
10-27-2009, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by JaffaCake
I don't think any Historian is for sure who were the first people to enter the lands. No one knows from my knowledge. Many people had invaded that land for various of reasons. However if that is the case, it would mean America would have to return the land to the Aborigines. Though I don't see any problem with Hadas moving to Israel. I wouldn't be pleased to hear that they're moving in the illegal settlements of West Bank and Gaza.

If the conflict is to be resolved then I would personally like the following to occur:

1. Stop building the illegal settlements.
2. Both sides must stop fighting within a certain time frame.
3. Those who have committed war crimes should be put on trial.
4. Set up a government that balances the rights of Muslims and Jews. Just a country where everyone lives in peace....

Yeah like that is gonna happen. O.o
Reply

Muezzin
10-27-2009, 06:31 PM
I agree that people can live where they like, so long as their home wasn't built in the spot another abode was forcibly demolished after immorally evicting its inhabitants.

In relation to this topic, this doesn't mean Jews can't live in Israel. All it means is that I personally disagree with people settling in the West Bank. Surely there's plenty of other accomodation deeper into Israel?
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-28-2009, 02:27 AM
Originally Posted by JaffaCake
1. Residing in a country via immigration is different from residing in a country via occupation.

2. "seal their mouths shut," it may. however, this does not nullify the fact and/or the Palestinians right to let in whoever they want on their land.
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جوري
10-28-2009, 02:37 AM
if you are not a middle eastern Jew, which in fact less than 5% of Jews are, then I don't see how you can live there under an independent colony?.. You can seek immigration into Palestine and live under their laws, not steal, displace preempt and then turn it around so the locals are labeled terrorists..

None of us have anything against law abiding Jews (they are human like everyone else is), however, I have plenty against the colonial settler state of Israel and the insensate beings that currently inhabit it to ethnically cleanse while re-writing history..


peace
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Woodrow
10-28-2009, 03:23 AM
The longer I live among Native Americans, the more similarity I see between the Palestinians and them.

Stolen lands, displaced families, branded as savages when protecting what was theirs. Unfair treaties, blatant lies and the final insult of loosing their language, culture and religion.


However, I have no objection over a pious non-zionist Jew moving to Israel as long as it is not at the expense of any Palestinians.

In fairness I think before any new settlers move into the area the Displaced Palestinians and Displaced Arab Jews should all have their family lands restored to them or their decedents if they ar no longer alive.
Reply

Afg
10-28-2009, 03:38 AM
I don't recognize israel as a country. The whole of what is called israel today, is actually Palestine.
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JaffaCake
10-28-2009, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
1. Residing in a country via immigration is different from residing in a country via occupation.
I think you might have missed my point. It appears that you believe ownership of, or at least a right to live on, a piece of land is by birthright.

It seems that a lot of these arguments rest on a historical claim that Palestinians are the descendants of the original residents. How far back do you go with that? People have moved around a lot in the last few thousand years, I doubt that anyone can say with certainty that all current Palestinians have a link to the original 'owners' (whatever that means) and nobody else does.

Also, how does that work alongside your belief that everyone is a descendant of Adam? If that's the case surely we all have an equal stake.
Reply

hadas
10-28-2009, 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by Afg
I don't recognize israel as a country. The whole of what is called israel today, is actually Palestine.
Well do you recognize jews as a nation..

Do they have right to their own state?
Reply

hadas
10-28-2009, 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The longer I live among Native Americans, the more similarity I see between the Palestinians and them.

Stolen lands, displaced families, branded as savages when protecting what was theirs. Unfair treaties, blatant lies and the final insult of loosing their language, culture and religion.


However, I have no objection over a pious non-zionist Jew moving to Israel as long as it is not at the expense of any Palestinians.

In fairness I think before any new settlers move into the area the Displaced Palestinians and Displaced Arab Jews should all have their family lands restored to them or their decedents if they ar no longer alive.
Jews are also native people of the Middle East.
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sister herb
10-28-2009, 10:47 AM
Question and ideology behind it is strange - and quite same what zionists use when they try to prove they have right to get own state - even by stolen and getting by murdering and expelling early inhabitants.

It is same like should Christians have right to get they own state - where every whose have right to live there would be just Christians; every others should expelled. Idea of zionists has been last news that by the two state solution they wants so-called "Jews-only-state". This kind of ideology is pure racism - just like nazism or apartheid.

Well do you recognize jews as a nation..

Do they have right to their own state?
Even you asked this from other member I will answer:

No, jewism is religion, not race neither nation.

Sure if they want jews-only-state - but not to land which original inhabitants have been expelled or murdered and stealed they land.
Reply

Afg
10-28-2009, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by hadas
Well do you recognize jews as a nation..

Do they have right to their own state?
What do you mean? I don't recognize israel as a country and i never will. I know it must be harsh, but it's reality. And i will never forget the thousand of innocent Palestinians that died because of israel. If jews want a country, then i remembered reading somewhere that its to be in Russia, if i am not mistaken. But it was not Palestine. You guys literally destroyed their lives. All of which you are living on is Palestine and it will always be Palestine. I don't mean to be harsh, but some things need to be said. If you feel for these Palestinians, who were brutally murdered, you won't go to live in israel. israel is very cruel. I don't need to quote anything for that. Here, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQLM9...er_profilepage
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Afg
10-28-2009, 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by hadas
Jews are also native people of the Middle East.
Not the modern israelis.
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hadas
10-28-2009, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Question and ideology behind it is strange - and quite same what zionists use when they try to prove they have right to get own state - even by stolen and getting by murdering and expelling early inhabitants.

It is same like should Christians have right to get they own state - where every whose have right to live there would be just Christians; every others should expelled. Idea of zionists has been last news that by the two state solution they wants so-called "Jews-only-state". This kind of ideology is pure racism - just like nazism or apartheid.



Even you asked this from other member I will answer:

No, jewism is religion, not race neither nation.

Sure if they want jews-only-state - but not to land which original inhabitants have been expelled or murdered and stealed they land.


So jews are not original inhabitants in Middle East?? Where did they originate? In Siberia maybe?

There are many Arabs who have israeli citizenship , Arab language is official language in Israel....they live and work side by side with jews...
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hadas
10-28-2009, 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by Afg
Not the modern israelis.
There are Arabs, Pakistanis, Koreans living and working in Europe....do you object that?

So you think that jewish people should be racially profiled and whoever is not ''semitic'' enough has no right to live in Israel?


Blue-eyed people should not live in Israel?
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hadas
10-28-2009, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by Afg
What do you mean? I don't recognize israel as a country and i never will. I know it must be harsh, but it's reality. And i will never forget the thousand of innocent Palestinians that died because of israel. If jews want a country, then i remembered reading somewhere that its to be in Russia, if i am not mistaken. But it was not Palestine. You guys literally destroyed their lives. All of which you are living on is Palestine and it will always be Palestine. I don't mean to be harsh, but some things need to be said. If you feel for these Palestinians, who were brutally murdered, you won't go to live in israel. israel is very cruel. I don't need to quote anything for that. Here, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQLM9...er_profilepage
Well I can post pictures of suicide-attacks victims...
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hadas
10-28-2009, 11:17 AM
One more question

what do you think about Ahmadinejad and his words: Israel should be wiped off the Earth:hmm:
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Afg
10-28-2009, 11:28 AM
Ya, israel should leave Palestine, give back all the land.
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Afg
10-28-2009, 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by hadas
There are Arabs, Pakistanis, Koreans living and working in Europe....do you object that?

So you think that jewish people should be racially profiled and whoever is not ''semitic'' enough has no right to live in Israel?


Blue-eyed people should not live in Israel?
That is different. Im sure you know that. They are not killing people, nor are they snatching their land.

It's not jew, it's israel im talking about. There are jews who don't call themselves israelis. Example Polish jews, German jews.. israel, again im saying is not a country that we recognize. It is Palestine, not israel.

Blue-eyed people? Where did that come from? Are you blued-eyed?;) If a jew wants to live in Palestine, im sure the Palestinians would not mind. But if they come, take away their land, call it israel :hmm:
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Afg
10-28-2009, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by hadas
Well I can post pictures of suicide-attacks victims...
Ya you can :) but here we are talking about israelis taking away the land of others. May God be with the Palestinians, it was really heart breaking to see how their homes were demolished. And that little boy who had to go through this imsad and all the people there who had to see these horrible things happening to them.
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hadas
10-28-2009, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Afg
Ya, israel should leave Palestine, give back all the land.
Now I am confused...

first you tell me that Israelis should leave, and then you say: Palestinians woud not object if a jewish person comes to live there...

I am not blonde, I am brunette with brown eyes, is that semitic enough:statisfie:D
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ژاله
10-28-2009, 11:50 AM
Israel should be wiped off the Earth
like Palestine is being wiped off the Earth. couldnt agree more.
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hadas
10-28-2009, 11:52 AM
I have a jewish friend who was in love with a palestinian boy.

I live in Croatia, she is half-croatian, half-jewish, he is half-palestinian, half-croatian.

She told me one day that they quarrel all the time. He thinks that jews should not live in the Middle East and started telling her: well Tel Aviv will be razed to the ground one day...They broke up finally.

Do you think it is ok of a muslim guy to talk that way to his girlfriend?
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S_87
10-28-2009, 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by hadas
I have a jewish friend who was in love with a palestinian boy.

I live in Croatia, she is half-croatian, half-jewish, he is half-palestinian, half-croatian.

She told me one day that they quarrel all the time. He thinks that jews should not live in the Middle East and started telling her: well Tel Aviv will be razed to the ground one day...They broke up finally.

Do you think it is ok of a muslim guy to talk that way to his girlfriend?
ill put the whole girlfriend thing aside but things like the tel aviv comment- yes its understandable. the zionists have ALREADY WIPED palestine off the map you dont expect palestinians or muslims to be all sugary and floaty about them.
if jews want to live in the middle east (which many do btw) then fine- but they should do it under palestinian law..not steal their land and occupy it
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Afg
10-28-2009, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Malaak
like Palestine is being wiped off the Earth. couldnt agree more.
Exactly! :)
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Afg
10-28-2009, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by hadas
Now I am confused...

first you tell me that Israelis should leave, and then you say: Palestinians woud not object if a jewish person comes to live there...

I am not blonde, I am brunette with brown eyes, is that semitic enough:statisfie:D
Yes you are confused.

israel should leave Palestine, and give them back all the land. They may be able to give back the land, but not the lives. All those people..

There are jews in Palestine, and Christians too. But as someone mentioned, they should be living under Palestinian law. They would be living in a country called Palestine, not israel. This should clear away your confusion :)

Lol the blue-eyed thing was a joke. You said so blue-eyes won't be allowed to live there. Just thought maybe you were talking about yourself. But ya there are probably blue-eyes, grey-eyes, green-eyes living in palestine :statisfie
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Afg
10-28-2009, 12:18 PM
I have a jewish friend who was in love with a palestinian boy.

I live in Croatia, she is half-croatian, half-jewish, he is half-palestinian, half-croatian.

She told me one day that they quarrel all the time. He thinks that jews should not live in the Middle East and started telling her: well Tel Aviv will be razed to the ground one day...They broke up finally.

Do you think it is ok of a muslim guy to talk that way to his girlfriend?
Well, it is not right for a Muslim guy to have a girlfriend.
Reply

جوري
10-28-2009, 12:26 PM
the land of Palestine was "supposedly" promised to the seed of
Abraham. If one researches the Ancient Hebrew laws, the right of decent or inheritance is based on the eldest son, no matter whom the mother is. If this is the case, then the land was promised to Ishamel (for he was the eldest of Abraham's sons) and the Father of Palestinian Arabs. In addition, modern day Jews from Russia, Poland and most parts of Eastern Europe have NO genetic link to the ancient Hebrews - they for the most part are decendents of Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 7th century (this has been documented by Jewish scholars, not Arabs). The modern day Palestinians can claim a more direct link to the Hebrew tribes than the founders of modern day "Israel." What the Western Press purposely avoids mentioning is the fact that at the start of the 20th century, less than 5% of the land of Palestine was Jewish. The modern State of Israel was built on lands illegally taken and assimilated from Palestinian Christians and Muslims. Also, the Hebrews only ruled the land of Palestine for a combined 411 years - the Muslims have ruled the land for 1,500 years. In addition, the land of Canaan (Palestine) had a history long before the Jewish tribes immigrated to the area.

_________________

If you look in the bible you'll see that Abraham ( who was still a middle easterner) bought a land from the Canaanites to bury Sarah, he didn't just take a land because it was (promised them) and I still stress he was originally a middle easterner not a pole or a ruskie......

I am glad that the the pali kid came to his senses.. I don't know much about Judaism but I imagine having illegal and illicit relationships outside of marriage is frowned upon in Judaism as well?


all the best

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Eric H
10-28-2009, 12:53 PM
Greetings and peace be with you hadas, welcome to the forum.

Do you think that jewish people have a right to live in the Middle East. I read muslim forums and people often say that Jews have no right to be there.
Maybe the question should be, do you think Palestinians have a right to live in the state of Israel? I have just come back from a Christian pilgrimage to Israel, we had a Jewish guide, who constantly talked about the 1967 war, and the reunification of Jerusalem.

I don’t know how accurate her figures are but she said, Israel is about 80 % Jewish, and about 20 % Muslim, so there aren’t too many Palestinians left according to her information.

What are your thoughts?

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people, the poor and the oppressed.

Eric
Reply

hadas
10-28-2009, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
the land of Palestine was "supposedly" promised to the seed of
Abraham. If one researches the Ancient Hebrew laws, the right of decent or inheritance is based on the eldest son, no matter whom the mother is. If this is the case, then the land was promised to Ishamel (for he was the eldest of Abraham's sons) and the Father of Palestinian Arabs. In addition, modern day Jews from Russia, Poland and most parts of Eastern Europe have NO genetic link to the ancient Hebrews - they for the most part are decendents of Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 7th century (this has been documented by Jewish scholars, not Arabs). The modern day Palestinians can claim a more direct link to the Hebrew tribes than the founders of modern day "Israel." What the Western Press purposely avoids mentioning is the fact that at the start of the 20th century, less than 5% of the land of Palestine was Jewish. The modern State of Israel was built on lands illegally taken and assimilated from Palestinian Christians and Muslims. Also, the Hebrews only ruled the land of Palestine for a combined 411 years - the Muslims have ruled the land for 1,500 years. In addition, the land of Canaan (Palestine) had a history long before the Jewish tribes immigrated to the area.

_________________

If you look in the bible you'll see that Abraham ( who was still a middle easterner) bought a land from the Canaanites to bury Sarah, he didn't just take a land because it was (promised them) and I still stress he was originally a middle easterner not a pole or a ruskie......

I am glad that the the pali kid came to his senses.. I don't know much about Judaism but I imagine having illegal and illicit relationships outside of marriage is frowned upon in Judaism as well?


all the best

She broke up, he came after her crying...well they didn't consume their relationship...

You are mentioning racism, but then you say that jews have no right to live in Middle East because they were people living there before, some canaan tribes..

Well there were non-slavic tribes like Illirians living on the area of Croatia long before slavic tribes came from eastern Europe...according to that logic, croatians should leave Croatia and go back to russian midlands...

What do you think about european people who say that Jews should be expelled from Europe?
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جوري
10-28-2009, 12:59 PM
I have already told you if you read my previous post, I have no problem immigrating to lands so long as they live under the laws of the land of which they are citizens..
you know what percentage of Israeli citizens are atheists? look it up, because I really don't know what ties them to that place.. I have to run I am already late for work........

all the best
Reply

hadas
10-28-2009, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you hadas, welcome to the forum.



Maybe the question should be, do you think Palestinians have a right to live in the state of Israel? I have just come back from a Christian pilgrimage to Israel, we had a Jewish guide, who constantly talked about the 1967 war, and the reunification of Jerusalem.

I don’t know how accurate her figures are but she said, Israel is about 80 % Jewish, and about 20 % Muslim, so there aren’t too many Palestinians left according to her information.

What are your thoughts?


I
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people, the poor and the oppressed.

Eric



have nothing against Arabs living in Israel...there are many of them who live , go to work, school, etc...

For example world center of Bahai religion is in Haifa...do you know that...

Do you know that one jewish female was sentenced to prison because she made a cartoon of Mohammad Rasul?
Reply

GuestFellow
10-28-2009, 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by hadas
Do they have right to their own state?
I don't mind but not through violent force and killing people in the process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeaZuj7ruwM

Watch this video. Do you agree with what this Jew says?

Originally Posted by hadas
One more question

what do you think about Ahmadinejad and his words: Israel should be wiped off the Earth:hmm:
NO. President Ahmadinejad never said that he wants to see Israel wiped off the map militarily but to see the Zionist regime collapse like how the Soviet Union collapsed. There is NO evidence to suggest that Iran has developing nuclear weapon to wipe Israel off the map. That's stupid. President Ahmadinejad supports the Palestinians and an attack on Israel will surely affect Palestinians.

You should be more worried about countries that have nuclear weapons and do not allow any other nations to inspect their weapons.
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cat eyes
10-28-2009, 01:41 PM
Is it true that they call new york jew york? if thats the case then america is more jewish then isreal. most jews move to america don't they
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hadas
10-28-2009, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I don't mind but not through violent force and killing people in the process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeaZuj7ruwM

Watch this video. Do you agree with what this Jew says?



NO. President Ahmadinejad never said that he wants to see Israel wiped off the map militarily but to see the Zionist regime collapse like how the Soviet Union collapsed. There is NO evidence to suggest that Iran has developing nuclear weapon to wipe Israel off the map. That's stupid. President Ahmadinejad supports the Palestinians and an attack on Israel will surely affect Palestinians.

You should be more worried about countries that have nuclear weapons and do not allow any other nations to inspect their weapons.
May I ask you something, do you think that Israel is responsible for all the problems in the muslim world and arab world?
Reply

GuestFellow
10-28-2009, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by hadas
May I ask you something, do you think that Israel is responsible for all the problems in the muslim world and arab world?
No. Everyone is it at fault to some extent. It would not be logical to put the entire blame on one country. Nothing good comes out of it if people take that approach.
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zakirs
10-29-2009, 04:31 AM
May I ask you something, do you think that Israel is responsible for all the problems in the muslim world and arab world?
Israel is not in fault for current mess in arab world.But i am sure the oppressive actions of israel is the cause for mess in Palestine and israel.


But i hope everything settles in peace :( i don't want more people to die because of this conflict
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malayloveislam
10-29-2009, 08:11 AM
I don't hate Jews or pious Jews... I don't know if they call their religion Judaism... But I have the same respect to them as I respect other Muslim brethren... Hebrew is considered as Bedouine.
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Afg
10-29-2009, 08:48 AM
Originally Posted by hadas
Do you know that one jewish female was sentenced to prison because she made a cartoon of Mohammad Rasul?
What a joke! Yes it is a big joke if this took place in israel. israeli jews get away with many things, it's obvious.
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malayloveislam
10-29-2009, 08:51 AM
What is so fun making fun about others like caricatures and etc? I never see any sane Muslim make fun of Moses or Jesus like others had done... And I'm sure I myself will kick the head of anyone not only Muslim who make fun of these holy prophets!
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Eric H
10-29-2009, 10:26 AM
Gretings and peace be with you hadas; thanks for your reply.

have nothing against Arabs living in Israel...there are many of them who live , go to work, school, etc...
What are your thoughts on the reunification of Jerusalem, the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock, which are both built on top of the Temple Mount?

For example world center of Bahai religion is in Haifa...do you know that...
Thanks for the info, very interesting.

Do you know that one jewish female was sentenced to prison because she made a cartoon of Mohammad Rasul?
There is a great need to search for justice for all people, but we each seem to want justice more for our own kind, rather than those who are different.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
Reply

zakirs
10-29-2009, 12:08 PM
What are your thoughts on the reunification of Jerusalem, the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock, which are both built on top of the Temple Mount?
This can happen only when both parties come to a conclusion and israel stops its occupation and make a Free country with jews and muslims living in peace and respect
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-30-2009, 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by JaffaCake
I think you might have missed my point. It appears that you believe ownership of, or at least a right to live on, a piece of land is by birthright.
Hmm, this birth right concept wasn’t exactly what i was aiming at, so im not sure that your conclusions are right. All i was saying was that the Palestinians, since they are in the authority- have the right to choose who enters their lands etc.

However, Being in authority of a land does not denote that one has inhabited it illegally. Not everyone who is in authority on land fought the original inhabitants and took over.
It seems that a lot of these arguments rest on a historical claim that Palestinians are the descendants of the original residents. How far back do you go with that? People have moved around a lot in the last few thousand years, I doubt that anyone can say with certainty that all current Palestinians have a link to the original 'owners' (whatever that means) and nobody else does.

Also, how does that work alongside your belief that everyone is a
descendant of Adam?
I don’t see what that has to do with anything quite frankly.
If that's the case surely we all have an equal stake.
How so? Going by your logic, i have the right to to steal your property and claim it as my own and then make myself look like the victim. but any sound intellect rejects that notion-and rightfully so!

Originally Posted by hadas
Arab language is official language in Israel....
indeed, because is Israel is Occupied Palestine...so it makes perfect sense



Originally Posted by hadas
Well I can post pictures of suicide-attacks victims...
if you do, and whilst your at it, please post pictures of mosques that have been destroyed, olive trees farms that have been stolen, etc etc
Reply

sister herb
10-30-2009, 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by hadas
So jews are not original inhabitants in Middle East?? Where did they originate? In Siberia maybe?
As Jewism is religion, then jews are original from many parts of the world. Many zionist leaders, for example, are original from Russia and East Europe.

If some originally Finnish for example would convert to jewism, his etchnic background wouldn´t change to semitic at all neither nobody couldn´t claims he is original inhabitant from Middle East, but jew he will be.

By same way I could ask from where muslims are original from? Or all Christians?
Reply

sister herb
10-30-2009, 05:27 AM
Originally Posted by hadas
Well I can post pictures of suicide-attacks victims...
Of course you can, as like we could post here pictures of mutilated bodies of child victims from Gaza and Lebanon after zionists´ terrorist attacks, but I don´t think it is the main point of this discussion.

Surely you also can explain these victims of zionists are all just as "mistake" of the most moral army who only has right for self-defence.

Like these ones:
Self-defence stories from Gaza
By Paul J. Balles


October 24, 2009

According to Amnesty International, some 1,400 Palestinians were killed in the 22-day Israeli offensive between 27 December 2008 and 17 January 2009, which agrees broadly with Palestinian figures. More than 900 of these were civilians, including 300 children and 115 women.

Two-year old Amal Abed Rabbo, one of the 300 children casualties, died in an Israeli attack outside her house in the village of Izbit Abed Rabbo, Gaza, on 7 January 2009.

The UN Human Rights Council’s Goldstone report called Israel’s military assault on Gaza "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever-increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability".

Gabriela Shalev, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, quickly rejected the report, saying it failed to take into account that the operation was in "self-defence".

Amira Qirm lay on a hospital bed with her right leg in plaster, and held together by a line of steel pins dug deep into her skin. For several days after her operation Amira, 15, was unable to speak, and even now talks only in a low whisper.

Amira watched her father die in the street outside their home in Gaza, then heard another shell land and kill her brother Ala'a, 14, and her sister Ismat, 16; and then she spent three days alone, injured and semi-conscious, trying to stay alive in a neighbour's abandoned house.

Israel's argument: the war was a response to Palestinian rocket fire and therefore an act of self-defence.

Muhammad Balousha, aged two, waited constantly by the door listening carefully to the sounds around him, hoping to recognize the sounds of his five sisters coming home. He does not know that, when on that one night they said goodnight and went to sleep, it was forever.

On the Israeli side 13 died in this conflict, three of them civilians. In total in the past eight years, 20 people in Israel have died from rocket and mortar attacks launched by militants in Gaza.

Abdul Rahim Abu Halima, 14, was killed when a white phosphorous artillery shell hit his home on 4 January. He died with two of his brothers, Zayed, eight, and Hamza, six, his sister Shahed, who was 15 months old, and their father Saadallah, 45.

Anne Bayefsky, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute writes, in The Jerusalem Post that the charges of human rights violations are just more of "that same old bash-Israel agenda".

A boy from the Abu Halima family lost his father, three brothers and an infant sister in a horrific fire after an Israeli phosphorus shell hit the house.

Israeli Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi has difficulty believing the soldiers' testimonies that they intentionally harmed Palestinian civilians, because the Israel Defence Force is a "moral army".

A Palestinian ambulance arrives with a patient who is barely 10 years old and his head is wrapped in a bandage and he is unconscious and on manual ventilation. He was shot in the head by Israeli sniper fire.

Prime Minister Netanyahu says Israeli forces were exercising their right to self-defence.

Neurosurgeon Dr Ahmed Yaha catalogued horrific injuries such as babies being shot in the head, babies with broken spines due to being thrown by shell blasts. People burned to the bone by white phosphorus, nail bombs causing brutal injuries and a new phenomena, micro-pellets, that leave no entry wound but cause fatal internal injuries.

In self-defence?

Source: http://www.uruknet.com/index.php?p=m...hd=&size=1&l=e
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malayloveislam
10-30-2009, 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
As Jewism is religion, then jews are original from many parts of the world. Many zionist leaders, for example, are original from Russia and East Europe.

If some originally Finnish for example would convert to jewism, his etchnic background wouldn´t change to semitic at all neither nobody couldn´t claims he is original inhabitant from Middle East, but jew he will be.

By same way I could ask from where muslims are original from? Or all Christians?
I have Yemeni ancestry, so that means that I am a Yemeni and have the right to go back to Yemen? Heck, I don even know where is my ancestral land anymore because my ancestor had been here since 17th C. Although we still can trace our clan lineage but that doesn't approve anything for me to snatch Yemeni lands or claiming anything from Yemen.

We do practice Arab customs here like we only marry among Muslim Arab, but the tradition had been broken nowadays when our grandfathers had practiced polygamy and they also have non-Arab wives. Is this has something in common with Jew tradition?
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Afg
10-30-2009, 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by malayloveislam
What is so fun making fun about others like caricatures and etc? I never see any sane Muslim make fun of Moses or Jesus like others had done... And I'm sure I myself will kick the head of anyone not only Muslim who make fun of these holy prophets!
:hmm: Are you talking to me? Coz your post are right before and after mine, that im not sure if you are referring to someone else..
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malayloveislam
10-30-2009, 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by Afg
:hmm: Are you talking to me? Coz your post are right before and after mine, that im not sure if you are referring to someone else..
Nope, sorry for not clearly stating to whom it is addressed. I'm quoting the post about people who love to make fun of others' prophets... I guess it is about a woman who was detained in Israel for making caricatures of prophet Muhammad (saw), it's not addressed to you nor anyone who doesn't making fun of holy prophets :statisfie...
Reply

Afg
10-30-2009, 06:53 AM
Oh :) Are you serious they detained her? Then they should detain all those war criminals and all those israeli terrorists.
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glo
10-30-2009, 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I agree that people can live where they like, so long as their home wasn't built in the spot another abode was forcibly demolished after immorally evicting its inhabitants.
Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but it reminded me of something I came across on our trip to Germany this week.
All across German cities they have placed pavement plaques (named 'stumbling blocks') outside the houses from which Jewish families were taken during WWII.
A powerful visual reminder of Germany's cruel past.



Perhaps we need similar reminders in Palestine.
Reply

Afg
10-30-2009, 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but it reminded me of something I came across on our trip to Germany this week.
All across German cities they have placed pavement plaques (named 'stumbling blocks') outside the houses from which Jewish families were taken during WWII.
A powerful visual reminder of Germany's cruel past.



Perhaps we need similar reminders in Palestine.
Who are they?

Yes we need similar reminders in Palestine :)
Reply

Woodrow
10-30-2009, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but it reminded me of something I came across on our trip to Germany this week.
All across German cities they have placed pavement plaques (named 'stumbling blocks') outside the houses from which Jewish families were taken during WWII.
A powerful visual reminder of Germany's cruel past.



Perhaps we need similar reminders in Palestine.
That would be a good first step.
Reply

JaffaCake
10-30-2009, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
Hmm, this birth right concept wasn’t exactly what i was aiming at, so im not sure that your conclusions are right. All i was saying was that the Palestinians, since they are in the authority- have the right to choose who enters their lands etc.

However, Being in authority of a land does not denote that one has inhabited it illegally. Not everyone who is in authority on land fought the original inhabitants and took over.
You speak of the 'authority' that people have over some land, and the rights this grants them to decide who comes and go. You say you don't agree that the authority is gained by virtue of being born on this land, so where does this authority come from?
Originally Posted by Umm ul-Shaheed
How so? Going by your logic, i have the right to to steal your property and claim it as my own and then make myself look like the victim. but any sound intellect rejects that notion-and rightfully so!
That's not what I'm saying at all, but I really need to hear your response to the above before I continue with this bit.
Reply

sister herb
10-30-2009, 01:47 PM
Ï agree with the idea of glo. Then what it would feel for jew moving from some other country to house stolen from Palestinian owner, if he would see every day name of the original owner of house on the wall.
Reply

zakirs
10-30-2009, 02:54 PM
You speak of the 'authority' that people have over some land, and the rights this grants them to decide who comes and go. You say you don't agree that the authority is gained by virtue of being born on this land, so where does this authority come from?

The authority comes from modern land laws .. Capitalism as you may say, A person has a right to say a land which is on his name to be his and if you violate that you are violating the law.I guess violating the law of a land is also a sin ?


Remember No body can certainly say this land is his ( all the earth and the heavens belong to GOD) .. but you have to accept a treaty which is unconsiously accepted over the whole world ( which is the right to one's assigned,bought land).What if I say my religion says i have the right to occupy america and start driving people out of USA ? ... you would say i am mad..
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sister herb
10-30-2009, 04:04 PM
This is one way how zionists get new houses for jews whose move to occupied Palestine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Rcp...layer_embedded

Full story: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-ea...east-jerusalem

And this is how they prevent Palestinians to build and keep they houses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY0CY...layer_embedded

:hmm:

In the West Bank zionists get "legal" right to some needed areas (for new settlements) just declaring them as "closed military areas" and then open them to jews-only-areas. Other one is they prevent farmers to reach they lands for some years, then use old laws from British era and claim these areas are not agricultured and "state" can take them for common using - and then give them to jews-only-areas, to zionist settlers.
Reply

glo
10-30-2009, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Afg
Who are they?
I don't know the family, but they all died in the concentration camp in Riga (Latvia).
The children were 4 and 6 years old. :cry:

The top plaque reads:
Here lived Rebecca Sonja Beutel
Born 1915
Deported 1941
Murdered in Riga
Reply

glo
10-30-2009, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Ï agree with the idea of glo. Then what it would feel for jew moving from some other country to house stolen from Palestinian owner, if he would see every day name of the original owner of house on the wall.
The stones are named 'stumbling blocks', and they have caused some controversy and debate for the reasons you mentioned.
Suddenly people may have to ask and wonder how some houses came to become the property of German people, and whether they belonged to Jewish families before the war ...
Reply

sister herb
10-30-2009, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by glo
The stones are named 'stumbling blocks', and they have caused some controversy and debate for the reasons you mentioned.
Suddenly people may have to ask and wonder how some houses came to become the property of German people, and whether they belonged to Jewish families before the war ...
Thank you SISTER glo. As thinking destiny of other people is the first step to understand humanity.
Reply

JaffaCake
11-01-2009, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by zakirs
What if I say my religion says i have the right to occupy america and start driving people out of USA ? ... you would say i am mad..
I wouldn't say you were mad, it's essentially the whole basis for this argument.
Originally Posted by zakirs
The authority comes from modern land laws ..
Of course they do now, but that's just a group of people deciding what people can and can't do with the land. What's the difference between that and me deciding that the land is mine?
Reply

zakirs
11-01-2009, 08:26 PM
I wouldn't say you were mad, it's essentially the whole basis for this argument.
Its as simple as this , tommorow i come to your house and drive you out saying this is my promised house.What would you do ?
Reply

JaffaCake
11-01-2009, 09:55 PM
Call the police?

You're missing the point a little. What right do I have to claim this house and land is mine? If I bought it from someone else, what right did they have to claim it?

If you go back far enough, all ownership stems from someone either finding an empty piece of land and building on it, or taking it from someone else. Nobody has absolute rights over land because there are no absolute rights to give, only some rights that we agree on. If someone else wants that land then you'll just have to fight over it or come to an agreement.
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zakirs
11-01-2009, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by JaffaCake
Call the police?

You're missing the point a little. What right do I have to claim this house and land is mine? If I bought it from someone else, what right did they have to claim it?

If you go back far enough, all ownership stems from someone either finding an empty piece of land and building on it, or taking it from someone else. Nobody has absolute rights over land because there are no absolute rights to give, only some rights that we agree on. If someone else wants that land then you'll just have to fight over it or come to an agreement.
Yes but i would call that fight an oppression when you violate the laws of the international acceptance. Lets face it , you did not own your house before a 1000 years so can we fight each other over it ? .. Common bro life is a lot more than fighting each other. Peace comes from adjusting and respecting each other , not being greedy and persecuting others .

All in good faith.Peace.
Reply

Supreme
11-01-2009, 10:24 PM
I do believe Jews should be able to live in the Middle East; however, I don't believe the current banner 'Israel' is the right way to go about it. Both Jews and Arabs have a legitmate claim to the land. But Israel is currently an evil state and is not the answer.
Reply

Eric H
11-01-2009, 11:15 PM
Greetings and peace be with you JaffaCake;
Nobody has absolute rights over land because there are no absolute rights to give,
I would think for practicing Jews and Muslims, they would both understand that all land belongs to God, we are but temporary custodians.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
Reply

JaffaCake
11-03-2009, 10:32 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
I would think for practicing Jews and Muslims, they would both understand that all land belongs to God, we are but temporary custodians.
Hi, I appreciate what you're saying but I was hoping to keep the big man out of it for the time being. As far as I know he doesn't intervene directly in property disputes, and very few people tend to think "ah well.. I was only borrowing it" when their house is being bulldozed.
Originally Posted by zakirs
Yes but i would call that fight an oppression when you violate the laws of the international acceptance.
What if I do not agree with international laws? When I am forced to do something simply because some other people say so, is that not oppression?
Reply

zakirs
11-03-2009, 01:42 PM
What if I do not agree with international laws? When I am forced to do something simply because some other people say so, is that not oppression?
Why is it an oppression , if you so wanted to go live near jerusalem buy land and go there legally.Why would one drive people out of their homes ? Don't push you inability to negotiate and buy land to term it as oppression.What oppression do you have anyway you have your home in what ever country you are , you probably are eating well and have a job , you are free to practise your religion.Then what do you mean by oppression?
Reply

sister herb
11-03-2009, 04:01 PM
They too don´t care about international laws at all. Today in the occupied East Jerusalem:

Tens of Jewish settlers break into, occupy home of 83-year-old Palestinian woman
[ 03/11/2009 - 02:21 PM ]

OCCUPIED JERUSALEM, (PIC)-- Tens of armed Jewish settlers on Tuesday stormed and occupied the home of 83-year-old Rifka Al-Kurd in Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood in the heart of occupied Jerusalem.

The PIC reporter said that about 60 settlers broke into the house under the threat of guns and with Israeli police protection and settled in it despite an Israeli court order banning them access into this part of the house.

Kurd's family is one of 28 Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah suburb threatened with displacement after Jewish fanatic groups claimed that their homes were built on lands owned by these groups.

The report said that Kurd's home was repeatedly stormed by those groups but this time they came to stay.

The Israeli occupation authority controlled municipality of Jerusalem ordered closure of this particular section of the house at the pretext that it was built without permit.

Tension is running high in the neighborhood after the settlers refused to evacuate the house while Israeli police were barring its owners from reaching it.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/d...6xlyh52VthM%3d

Does this feel right way to get you new home - specially if she would be your mother/grandmother?
Reply

JaffaCake
11-03-2009, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by zakirs
Why is it an oppression , if you so wanted to go live near jerusalem buy land and go there legally.
My point is basically "Why should I obey the law?".

Why should we obey the law, when the law is just one group of people telling another group what to do. If the government brought in a new law saying that all people called zakirs must jump off a tall building, would you do it?
Originally Posted by zakirs
What oppression do you have anyway you have your home in what ever country you are , you probably are eating well and have a job , you are free to practise your religion.Then what do you mean by oppression?
I mean anything which is designed to take away your freedom.
Reply

zakirs
11-04-2009, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by JaffaCake
My point is basically "Why should I obey the law?".

Why should we obey the law, when the law is just one group of people telling another group what to do. If the government brought in a new law saying that all people called zakirs must jump off a tall building, would you do it?I mean anything which is designed to take away your freedom.
If you want to argue upon why should you obey the law... then you should think about whats the point of you living in this world ? Without law there would be no peaceful co-existence , sure if you want to butcher people go ahead don't obey the law and do it.Remember anyone will face consequences of his doings either in this life or hereafter.

Why should we obey the law, when the law is just one group of people telling another group what to do. If the government brought in a new law saying that all people called zakirs must jump off a tall building, would you do it?
No , Because it violates another law which is right to live , i can fight for my self defence.Remember i am harming nobody in this case, people want to harm me without any reason.Which is not the case in this argument.So , if you want to continue this pointless argument just to satify you ego then ok you have won the argument.Go have a coke or icecream.
Reply

JaffaCake
11-04-2009, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by zakirs
If you want to argue upon why should you obey the law... then you should think about whats the point of you living in this world?
Brother, these are hypothetical questions.
Originally Posted by zakirs
No , Because it violates another law which is right to live
Your 'right to live' is just another agreement between people. If you can break the zakirs law, why can't I break this one?
Originally Posted by zakirs
Without law there would be no peaceful co-existence
Even with laws there is little peaceful co-existence.

Anyway, this not about the consequences of disobeying law, simply about the authority of law. Why should I obey laws that were made by people I've never met, at a time before I was born and that I was never asked about?
If you're answer is "because otherwise bad things happen", then shouldn't we be obeying terrorists, hostage takers, armed militias and corrupt governments?

I suppose you agree with Chinese laws enforcing Internet censorship and prohibiting freedom of speech. Maybe you agree with the British law that states placing a postage stamp upside down is an act of treason?
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Eric H
11-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Greetings and peace be with you JaffaCake;

My point is basically "Why should I obey the law?".
Having just come back from Jerusalem, there are too many people with guns, that might be the reason to obey laws, whether they are just or unjust.

Hi, I appreciate what you're saying but I was hoping to keep the big man out of it for the time being.
If people obeyed the big man, his laws are more just than our laws.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
Reply

JaffaCake
11-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Hi again
Originally Posted by Eric H
Having just come back from Jerusalem, there are too many people with guns, that might be the reason to obey laws, whether they are just or unjust.
So we should just bow to tyrants and hope for the best?
Originally Posted by Eric H
If people obeyed the big man, his laws are more just than our laws.
Then we're back to the millennia-old problem of deciding which laws are really his. That's part of the reason why there are too many people in Jerusalem with guns.
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zakirs
11-04-2009, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by JaffaCake
Hi againSo we should just bow to tyrants and hope for the best?
Then we're back to the millennia-old problem of deciding which laws are really his. That's part of the reason why there are too many people in Jerusalem with guns.
I have a doubt Jaffacake.. Whats your point to the argument? Its not even remotely related to topic.. lets end the thread here.( yes , i am accepting defeat , not that i can't go on , but this seems to be too baseless argument to me which has no direction at all.)
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Eric H
11-04-2009, 05:16 PM
Greetings and peace be with you JaffaCake;

Then we're back to the millennia-old problem of deciding which laws are really his. That's part of the reason why there are too many people in Jerusalem with guns
You may be confusing religion with God, whilst there may be thousands of religions, the same God hears all our prayers. God left the Jews some laws which I believe relate to this problem.

Leviticus 25:23
" 'The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants.

Leviticus 19:34
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 24:22
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.' "

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:33
" 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
Reply

JaffaCake
11-05-2009, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by zakirs
I have a doubt Jaffacake.. Whats your point to the argument? Its not even remotely related to topic.. lets end the thread here.( yes , i am accepting defeat , not that i can't go on , but this seems to be too baseless argument to me which has no direction at all.)
I'm sorry that I've not been very clear. I don't want to 'win' any argument, I just wanted to know why people think the way they do.

So many people get so emotional over the Israel-Palestine situation and talk about how Israel has no right to take land or even exist in the place it is. The basic idea was to make you think about what it means to 'own' the land and to see if people are arguing their point consistently or whether they are arguing based on emotion.

Sorry if it has seemed like a waste of time.
Reply

zakirs
11-05-2009, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by JaffaCake
I'm sorry that I've not been very clear. I don't want to 'win' any argument, I just wanted to know why people think the way they do.

So many people get so emotional over the Israel-Palestine situation and talk about how Israel has no right to take land or even exist in the place it is. The basic idea was to make you think about what it means to 'own' the land and to see if people are arguing their point consistently or whether they are arguing based on emotion.

Sorry if it has seemed like a waste of time.
We feel emotional because its our brothers and sisters who are being persecuted ( your brothers and sisters too.. ).So its logical to feel sad if they are in trouble.
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sister herb
11-07-2009, 04:52 AM
Maqdisi society exposes Israeli plan to demolish more Palestinian homes in O.J.

[ 06/11/2009 - 08:35 PM ]




OCCUPIED JERUSALEM, (PIC)-- The Maqdisi society said on Thursday that it possesses an important document revealing the intention of the Israeli occupation authority to demolish 40 Palestinian homes in the occupied city of Jerusalem by the year end.

In a statement it issued in this regard, and a copy of which was obtained by the PIC, the society pointed out that the document includes a list of names and locations of the homes that would be demolished, adding that the four Palestinian homes that were demolished last week in the city’s suburbs of Beit Haninan, Sur Baher and Al-Thawry were part of the list.

However, the society explained that all the homes that are on the list were populated, and that demolishing them would turn tens of Palestinian Jerusalemite families homeless.

Nevertheless, the society suggested the establishment of a legal body comprising experts, engineers, and architects that should immediately start making detailed plans for all Palestinian suburbs but stressed that a strong Arab and international role must be introduced in support of the Palestinian Jerusalemites.

Furthermore, the society invited Arab and Muslim businessmen and investors to invest in the property market in the city, and to establish an Arab-Muslim fund that would finance the construction of housing projects and give easy loans for administrative expenses.

Hundreds of Palestinian homes have been demolished in the city by the IOA, and thousands of Palestinian Jerusalemites have been forced out of their homes over the past few years as part of the Israeli policy to change the demographic structure in the city in favor of Jewish settlers.

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/d...zfTkYpy4a2o%3d
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